John 20:17 says:
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
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Blogging Theology 
Agreed. Don’t kiss the black stone!!
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I’m glad to hear you are not a Christ-worshiper!
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Paul
But…..I AM.
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Let’s look at the whole sentence:
Jesus was asked (in Mark’s account):
‘Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?’ Jesus said, ‘I am”
Muslims say Amen!
Matthews version is a bit different however, so we cannot be sure what Jesus really said:
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
“You have said so,” Jesus replied.
As I said already I’m please you say you are not a Christ-worshiper. Christ worshiped God and prayed to Him. We must resolutely reject idolatry.
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Muslims rejoice that Allah has taken a son? Did Jesus and the prophets kiss the black stone?
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lol what is it with your obsession with black stones?
Muslims only worship the One God, the God of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. We do not worship anything else.
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I just thought you would want to know that venerating a stone – black or otherwise – is idolatry. Worshipping the incarnate word of God is not.
And I would like to know if you think that Jesus and the prophets of Israel circled the kaaba seven times along with the other crescent moon idolaters and venerated a rock?
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Muslims do not ‘venerate’ a stone. Where did you get that idea from? What is your evidence? You know full well Muslims only worship the One God, just as Jesus did.
Also, I see you are being sly and dishonest…a classic troll
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A troll for talking about idolatry in a thread that calls to the pious to flee idolatry?
From all those photos of thousands of Muslims doing the hajj and climbing over each other to get their lips onto the black stone. Neither Jesus nor the Jewish prophets kissed the black stone – why do Muslims?
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can you show me a pic of Muslims “climbing over each other to get their lips onto the black stone”?
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The Prophet kissed the Black Stone. Does that mean he worshipped it?
This has to be one of the lamest arguments yet. Just because the Prophet (peace be upon him) kissed the Black Stone does not necessarily imply that he worshipped it.
Saheeh Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:
Narrated ‘Abis bin Rabia:
‘Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said “No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you.”
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:
Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said:
“Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, ‘By Allah! I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.’ Then he kissed it and said, ‘There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.’ ‘Umar added, ‘(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).’
We can see that Umar was even acknowledging that this stone had no power to do anything. So if the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) truly worshipped this stone then he should have at least informed his companions that this stone was an idol and that they should pray to it. However, we see that the companions did not do such a thing because the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not promote or believe in such a thing.
Article from Call to Monotheism.
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Do you really want to play this game? We all know that Muslims venerate and kiss the black stone and that circling the kaaba seven times is borrowed from the practices of idolaters.
Don’t go all taqiyah on me now.
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Thanks for that longer explanation but you have made it worse – Muslims venerate a stone as part of the veneration of a human being.
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so you can’t show me a pic of Muslims “climbing over each other to get their lips onto the black stone”.
Hmm.
You have been fully refuted in the hadiths I quoted.
I smell troll.
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http://www.nairaland.com/1330630/islam-bowing-before-black-stone
Hope these help.
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I smell idolatry……..
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Not idolatry.
People are not “climbing over each other” as you claim.
You have been conclusively refuted by the hadith I quoted above.
However I suspect you have been lying about your beliefs. Confess: you worship the Christ don’t you?
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What are you talking about? You are starting to sound like a sharia inquisition.
But whatever, God judges the sins of man. I pray for them.
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Oh, and it’s not idolatry because, to you, they don’t seem to be climbing over each other?
These people are bowing down to a stone, obviously praying to it and kissing it!!!!
It is no surprise that you don’t view this as idolatry – you guys failed to notice since the 7th century that Allah never denies any claims of the Christian trinity.
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Kirk you are plainly ignorant of what is going on in Mecca and are just making up lies because you hate Islam.
I notice you are running away from my question about worshipping the Christ. Are you afraid confess your faith openly before men?
Or is it the fact that I have caught you out in a big lie – first agreeing with me that we should not commit idolatry by worshiping the Christ then suggesting you in fact do so.
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btw how many names have you commented under on this bog? I count three…
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Kirk: We all know that Muslims venerate and kiss the black stone and that circling the kaaba seven times is borrowed from the practices of idolaters.
Where did the idolaters borrow the practice from?
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Kirk
You said;
Oh, and it’s not idolatry because, to you, they don’t seem to be climbing over each other?
These people are bowing down to a stone, obviously praying to it and kissing it!!!!
It is no surprise that you don’t view this as idolatry – you guys failed to notice since the 7th century that Allah never denies any claims of the Christian trinity.
I say;
It is unwise to say Jews bowing down behind the western wall in Jerusalem is idol worshiping
It is not true to say Muslim praying behind kaaba is idol worshiping
It is ignorance to believe Jews kissing the stone at the western wall in Jerusalem is idol worshiping
It is also not nice to say the Ark of the covenant being carried along from place to place and worshiping behind it as explained in the Christian Bible is idol worshiping.
Western Wall, Kaaba, Ark of the covenant are just things that the faithful believed was used by their prophets and so they go to see it and enact the history behind the things perceived to have been done by the prophets and their family.
It is different from Christian theology.
Christians(some) some worshiped Jesus Christ(Man), a thing.
-Muslims do not worship Kaaba and no Muslim mentions Kaaba when praying.
-They only pray behind it because was the prayer place the Abraham and his family built.
-Jews pray behind western wall because it is the remains of the temple built by their prophets.
Jews do not Mention Western wall when praying and Muslims do not mention kaaba when praying but Christians mentions “Jesus”, “Christ” , “God the Son” etc. to pray and ask them for forgiveness, help and anything. That is worship, veneration and idolatry. Not praying behind a place of worship built by prophets.
-Muslims and Jews never mention kaaba or western wall when praying and they do not ask for help from these things.
Watch a former Christian preacher who converted to Islam’s explanation between Islam and Christian worship.
Thanks.
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Eric
Are you trying to pass that off as a photograph – you do know that photo technology was invented much later in history? And is whoever that is in the picture worshiping that particular spot?
The problem for you guys is that even – as Paul has shown – Muslims might understand that the stone they kiss is merely an object, they still do so out of veneration for a human being. You know who that human being is.
So it’s a double whammy of idolatry – even some Muslims condemn it as such.
Kissing the stone is not in the quran so it is not the word of Allah. Neither is praying 5 times a day and the seven circumambulations around the Kaaba – you do those things out of veneration for a human being whose words supersede those of your own revelation.
Intellect
Should I trust what Yusuf Estes says? Some have condemned him as a Shia heretic.
Kmak
Other idolaters?
Paul
I was agreeing with the title – “Flee Idolatry!”. And you know my religious convictions.
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Kirk/Irk/Dirk You are a self confessed heretic. See Thread
“Proof that Jesus was not God – from the New Testament itself”
Now you claim “I was agreeing with the title – “Flee Idolatry!”
As usual you refute yourself Dude
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Burhanuddin1
I’m not entirely sure what you are talking about here – I’ve done none of the things you have asserted.
Venerating the black stone is clearly idolatry – even some Muslims decry it as such – but even more problematic, it is a double veneration of a stone because a human being (Mohammed) revered it.
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Veneration of the stone as you put it is not idolatry. Contrary to your stupid troll like claim we do not pray to it or worship it, but you choose to believe otherwise. I quoted you important Hadith that give the Muslim understanding. It’s just a rock nothing more.
Back to the Christ. You agree with my post that it is idolatry to worship God’s messiah. Seems you lied, cos now you say you do.
Idolatry is a serious sin dude. Jesus worshiped his God. You show follow Jesus’s example.
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Irk
January 7, 2016 • 2:15 pm
Eric
By all definition Irk position on trinity is heretical.
“Okay fine, I’m a heretic.”
You are priceless dude.
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Guys
I’m shocked here – your arguments amount to finger pointing and tu quoque and ad hominems.
Maybe we should just agree to disagree.
But, if it is not idolatry, then it is mindless imitation of your prophet’s actions – a veneration of a mere human being. Which aspect of Christian and Jewish belief does the veneration and kissing of the stone correct?
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Lol you have been throughly refuted over and over. Time to get a grip dude.
Don’t run away: Jesus worshiped his God – why do you commit idolatry by worshiping the Christ?
Flee idolatry!
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Okay! I won’t kiss the black stone, pray 5 times a day or circle the kaaba seven times!
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Do you agree that Jesus said he had a God and worshiped God?
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Jesus worshiped the God of Abraham, as Muslims do.
The Kaaba was erected by Abraham as a place of worship for the One True God.
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Paul
Jesus communicated with God the Father – no contradiction there. On the Christian view the three persons of the Trinity communicate.
But it comes back to our other discussion – Allah never once denies the claims of the truinity of God. Those are man-made blasphemies.
None of that changes the fact that kissing the black stone is idolatrous and not something that Allah ever said was godly.
Burhanuddin1
I see no reason to believe that. It is one of those made up things – like Allah’s supposed denial of trinitarian doctrines.
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Lol Jesus “communicated with God”?
That is not what I asked. The question for you is did Jesus PRAY to the one he called his “God”?
Well did he?
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Paul
BTW, I would appreciate it if you did not try to slur me as someone who “hates Islam”. I don’t hate Islam or Muslims in the least – I merely believe that Islam is an absolutely false and man made religious practice. Hope you see the difference.
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Perhaps you are not self aware dude but your hatred for Islam is evident to the rest of us. Another thing to repent of!
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Paul
That’s weird – I’m the one who has been insulted by your commenters, my religion has been regularly mocked and ridiculed by you and your band of merry Muslim men, and yet you somehow put all that together to mean that I hate Islam?
Don’t tell me you are a cry-bully?
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Like I said you lack self-awareness about your Islamophobia, a classic Christian fundamentalist syndrome.
My dear boy, you comment on my blog under various names, insult Islam with stupid and silly criticisms which are roundly refuted.
You will not have a normal adult conversation about the idolatry inherent in many expressions of the Christian faith – presumably because you are not up to offering a decent reply.
Do I bother banning you yet again? Dude if you don’t like it here go and play your games elsewhere.
This blog is for grown ups.
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“Jesus, who came from God the Father”
Is that orthodox Trinitarianism? The second person “coming” from the first person? Oh dear
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With the name of Allah
Veneration to prophets such as Muhammad and Jesus (peace be upon them) dont count as idolatry. We dont worship them. We worship the Lord of the Universe who created the prophets.
When prophet Jesus fell on his face (Mat 26:39 ) , it did mean it Jesus kissed the ground and worship the earth, he did that as a gesture to worship his God (the way the muslim do), Jesus prayed to the One who created him.
But Worshipping Jesus (=God ‘s creation) is idolatry.
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Kirk isn’t interested in rational discussion Eric he just wants to vent his hated of Islam on a Muslim blog.
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Sadly it does seem so to me, I pray that Allah soften his heart and eventually lead him to see the truth.
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Sadly it does seem so to me, I pray that Allah soften his heart and eventually lead him to see the truth.
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if Jesus is God the Son as Christianity teaches then it follows that it is not idolatry to worship him. This is one of the most irrational arguments I’ve seen for a while
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Perhaps you neglected to actually read my original post. If you did so you will see my argument is quite a strong one.
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Paul,
But Mark doesn’t know how to read! Give the poor guy a break! LOL!
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nup. Assuming Unitarianism (again) into the Christian tradition and scriptures is nothing more than childish antics. It might seem convincing to childish and basic Muslims (like Faiz), but to those with the decency to let others speak for themselves, it’s weak and pathetic.
Now, in breaking news, Christians have discovered that Muhammad was a trinitarian priest…
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Mark you assume Trinitarianism in the Bible. Methinks you are being hypocritical.
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Mark if Jesus is God the Son as Christianity teaches then it follows that you worship his human nature (if you are orthodox trinitarian) then it follows it is idolatry to worship him.
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Excellent point. Not just a human nature, but Christians of necessity according to their doctrine worship a being who was in part a fully human being.
Worshiping a human being is of course egregious sin.
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Christians worship Jesus, the Son of God incarnate. To divide his nature is an error.
When will you blokes allow others the courtesy to define their own faith? This Islamic obsession to critique positions that others don’t actually hold or believe is a just a continual repitition of the Koran’s same fallacious reasoning.
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Mark you are being most ungenerous to your Muslim brothers. Christians themselves clearly state that Jesus is 100% human. I have heard it said literally thousands of times.
You also shamelessly worship the Christ. Are you telling me you are unfamiliar with this very common phenomenon?
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Mark
You said;
Christians worship Jesus, the Son of God incarnate. To divide his nature is an error.
When will you blokes allow others the courtesy to define their own faith? This Islamic obsession to critique positions that others don’t actually hold or believe is a just a continual repitition of the Koran’s same fallacious reasoning.
I say;
You will divide his(Jesus) nature right now if I blame you of blaspheme for saying the immortal God dies. I blamed so many Christians about blaspheme with regards to Gods death. They will then divide the nature of Jesus and say the human nature died.
So, my dear Mark, we will definitely allow you to define your religion as we would like you to do same to us. We are just pointing the inconsistencies of Christianity because it is man-made religion, started by Paul and later by councils upon councils, anonymous writers, Church Fathers etc.
Well, the Quran challenges you to bring any inconsistency to prove your point and many people from the time of our prophet tried and failed. Christians on this blog and elsewhere i.e. Nabeel, Wood, Carner, Irk, Shamoun have tried but they do not sound convincing.
In addition, We worship being i.e. divine being(God) not nature. Worshiping a nature is a big sin because nature is not a divine being.
If Jesus is 100% God and 100% man, then he cannot have 2 natures but it has to be 2 beings.
Why?
Because 100% man is a being i.e. human being but not nature. 100% God is a being i.e. divine being.
You are trying to say that 100% human being is not a human being but “nature” and 100% God is not God but “nature” and with all due respect that is a lie.
David Kemball-Cook, a Unitarian Christian argues that, it is human beings that die but not “nature” and he is right. Jesus’s human being part died and therefore the divined part remained so Jesus has 2 beings not 2 natures.
God said He is not the author of confusion and He does not lie, so He will not lie to us as such for salvation which He did not do to Abraham and all the prophets except humans can lie and say it is from God, the Quran warns us about this.
You cannot take the “being” out from 100% human being and say it is only a “nature” but not a “being”. Any God who said He is that is a lying God. No wonder these Christians jargons like “nature”, “3 persons in 1 God, Triune, Trinity, hypostatic union, incarnation etc. comes out only from the mouth of Christians but cannot be found in the Bible despite its inconsistencies.
You did made a mistake instead of repetition you wrote repition and the red will underline to alert you but you did post it anyway. I know it is nothing but mistake but I instead want to it out to you to prove that we all make mistakes and you must stop ridiculing my mistakes.
Thanks.
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“Christians worship Jesus, the Son of God incarnate. To divide his nature is an error.”
Mark, what do you mean by Jesus, the son of god incarnate?
Are you saying that, there is another god, ie. the son of god, who then incarnate to become Jesus, not god himself?
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Mark “When will you blokes allow others the courtesy to define their own faith?”
Oh, please, yes feel free to define your faith, that would be most helpful!
“To divide his nature is an error.” Not sure what you are talking about.
Are you a Miaphysite?
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