Does Tom Wright Believe Jesus Is God?

I am sometimes asked, “Does Tom (N.T.) Wright believe Jesus is God?” Or I am told that he does not. I’m also asked the same question about Jimmy (J.D.G.) Dunn. Wright and Dunn are Brits. I know both of them, and we have discussed this subject briefly. I regard both men as being at the top of their craft–New Testament scholarship. Both are very cordial and a total delight to talk to. When Tom Wright does public speaking, he charms his audience.

For me, Wright and Dunn answer this question about whether or not Jesus is God with a positive answer. But it’s not the straightforward “yes” answer that most Christians are looking for. Almost all Christians are taught that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you are not a Christian. And they are taught that this question has a straightforward answer, so that the proper answer to it is a very unequivocal “yes.”

I think Tom Wright dances around this question. For example, he co-authored a book with Marcus Borg, who certainly does not believe that Jesus is God. That’s why the publisher asked them to do this book entitled The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions. Part V is entitled “Was Jesus God?” It consists of two chapters. Borg authored ch. 9: “Jesus and God;” Wright authored ch. 10: “The Divinity of Jesus.” In a chapter so entitled, the reader would expect to get a yes or no answer about whether or not Jesus was God. Moreover, in Wright’s chapter you would think that he is going to tell us that Jesus is divine.

Borg begins his chapter by saying that people often ask him if he believes Jesus is God. Borg doesn’t answer it straight out either. Instead, he answers that Jesus did not believe he was God ([p. 145). Borg later says that Jesus “is not different in kind from us but as completely human as we are” (p.148). So, Borg obviously does not believe Jesus is God. But this statement also reveals that he does not believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead with an immortal body, and a later chapter is about that.

Wright in his chapter also says, “I do not think Jesus ‘knew he was God’” (p. 166). Wright has made this very statement in other books. That leaves the question open, so that Jesus may have been God but he just didn’t know it then. And that is what Wright believes. For he says on the next page, “The early church was not reticent about saying that Jesus was messiah, that his death was God’s saving act, and that he and his Father belonged together within the Jewish picture of the one God” (p. 167).

This is the same way Bauckham and Hurtado talk about the issue. They all dance around the question, “Was Jesus God?” But they give what must be understood as a positive answer to it. In fact, Wright begins this chapter by saying that he is often asked this question, and he answers, “I regard this as deeply misleading” (p. 157).

In Wright’s little book, Who Was Jesus? (p. 51), he says he was on a panel discussion at Oxford and the “interviewer tossed me the question: ‘Was Jesus God?’ That’s one of those trick questions that you can’t answer straight on. It assumes that we know what ‘God’ means, and we’re simply asking if Jesus is some identified with this ‘God.’ What we should say, instead, is: ‘It all depends what you mean by ‘God.’”

In both books I don’t think Wright then tells how this is a misleading question or even why we should get into the question of what is meant by “God.” This question, “Is Jesus God?”is a very historical question for the church. Wright, the consummate churchman, knows this quite well. He just doesn’t want to answer it point blank since I think he knows there is a lot in the Bible that is against a positive answer.

One time I told Tom about my RJC book and its thesis–that the Bible does not say that Jesus is God. I then asked if I could send him of copy of it. He said yes (and I did), but he also replied that he wouldn’t have time to look at it and indicated that he wouldn’t be convinced by it. I’ve seen him subsequent years, and he has not mentioned the book.

I seem to be from the old school, that you let your “yes” be “yes” and your “no” a “no.” I do get frustrated sometimes when some scholars don’t give straightforward answers. Worse yet is if they say one thing in a book and then turn around and say the opposite. Scholars identify that innocuously as believing in a paradox; I usually call it believing in a contradiction. I’m not saying this about Tom Wright. But I do think that sometimes he should answer in a more straightforward manner.

source



Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship, God, History

104 replies

  1. I think the problem is that whilst they believe that Jesus is god, they also realise that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to argue that the historical Jesus claimed to be God or “more than a man.” This, I feel, is the problem. Therefore, rather than giving up a presupposition which does not fare well when put up against the data, a way is sought to cling to faith by playing around with the data and being fuzzy.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. I still can’t figure out from what you posted whether if Wright and Dunn believe in Jesus’ virginal conception and birth from his blessed mother. Did I miss it?

    Like

  3. No spamming on this blog, this is not answeringIslam, wrap your crap and get going.

    Liked by 4 people

  4. lol well said.

    BTW Sam, please do me a favor and pass this link on to Jay Smith, James White and Steven Martins since it exposes more of their shameless bigotry:

    https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/02/03/shameless-bigotry-jay-smith-james-white-and-steven-martins-christian-missionaries/

    Liked by 3 people

  5. “That leaves the question open, so that Jesus may have been God but he just didn’t know it then. And that is what Wright believes.”

    No wonder the new atheists claim “christian theology” should not longer be considered an academic discipline and should be banned from universities

    Liked by 1 person

  6. I was stunned many years ago when I learnt that many top Christian theologians simultaneously assert that Jesus may have been God but he just didn’t know it.

    These academics like Tom Wright know that the real Jesus showed no evidence of believing he was Yahweh (a blasphemous thought anyway), yet incoherently they still hold on to the error that he was God – ie the All-knowing, All-powerful Creator of the universe.

    Such intellectual bankruptcy is one of the reasons I am not a Christian today.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Paul Williams

    You said;
    These academics like Tom Wright know that the real Jesus showed no evidence of believing he was Yahweh (a blasphemous thought anyway), yet incoherently they still hold on to the error that he was God – ie the All-knowing, All-powerful Creator of the universe.

    I say;
    It is their desires, choice, freewill, ego, satan, etc. that will prevents them to accept this clear truth after seeing it . I am happy for you because the truth shall set you free. You still need to fight satan till your death and that is Islam and I hope by performing the rituals and following the commands of Allah we will be closer to Allah and away from satan. Blood do not work here.

    This wonders of rejecting the clear truth or clear sign of God is with humans from the beginning and will continue to the end.

    The people of Abraham tried to burn him in a fire for telling them to stop idol worship and worship only one God. They saw a miracle, truth and a sign from God when Prophet Abraham walked out from the fire unharmed but yet they did not accept his one God in the whole country except his nephew Lut.

    So do not be surprised to tell someone God is not “Son” to anyone and anyone who is “Son” is not God and cannot be God but the person will tell you.

    a. That is not what we believe

    b. You do not understand our religion

    c. The author of the Quran has missed the point, we do not mean God gave birth to Jesus. ( I will ask, then why the Son for God sake. Son means son if that is not what you mean why do you keep it there? Change the word to for example “share holders” or “executives” or something else because they are co-equal. You will not agree the Son is metaphorical like other sons of God either. Son must either be metaphorical or literal or do not use it)

    -They will use begotten, when the Quran says God is not begotten, they say that is not what we believe, but begotten is what it means begotten.

    -When you press them hard, they will say ok. the Son was generated like a ray of the Son borrowed from a Pagan Greek philosopher. You tell them “generate” means to create but anything generated/created is not God, so Jesus is not God. Like the idol worshipers of Abraham, they are also to accept a generated/created God instead of Only One God of Abraham who is not generated/created.

    -You say 3 persons 1 God is dividing God into parts, they will argue with you from morning to evening that it is not in parts. Any 3 is in parts and the Quran said do not say 3, as simple as that. They say the Quran must define the whole Trinitarian creed which is not in the Bible.

    -You say the Bible said God will not die but they divide the God that they said they will not divide and say the man part died but will accuse you when you say their God is divided into parts with one part coming to earth and the others remaining wherever.

    The Christians( Trinitarians to be fair) will accuse you for saying what the say i.e. the man PART, PART, PART of their God died. May Allah guide all of us.

    Good story of Abraham. It worth watching to increase our iman.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axRWhbL8QFM

    Thanks.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. correction

    Like the idol worshipers of Abraham’s nation, who has seen a clear truth to accept only One God, but rejected it in favour of the idols their forefathers worshiped, some people today will turn their back on truth after seeing a clear sign to truth.

    Quran:

    “When it is said to them: “Follow what Allah has sent down.” They say: “Nay! We shall follow what we found our fathers following.” (Would they do that!) even though their fathers did not understand anything nor were they guided.”

    Surah Al-Baqarah (2:170)

    Interpretation of the meaning (Tafsir Ibn Kathir):

    The Polytheist imitates Other Polytheists:

    Allah states that if the disbelievers and polytheists are called to follow what Allah has revealed to His Messenger and abandon the practices of misguidance and ignorance that they indulge in, they will say, “Rather. We shall follow what we found our fathers following,” meaning, worshipping the idols and the false deities. Allah criticized their reasoning:

    “(Would they do that!) even though their fathers” – meaning, those whom they follow and whose practices they imitate, and:

    “…did not understand anything nor were they guided” – meaning, they had no sound understanding or guidance.

    Thanks.

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  9. Paul, I didn’t get an answer. Do Wright and Dunn deny Jesus’ virginal birth? Or only Dunn denies it?

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  10. Jesus seems to know that He is God in the flesh by His quotation of Daniel 7:13-14 and Psalm 110:1 in Mark 14:60-64. He knows He is the eternal Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity, from all eternity past. (John 17:5)

    Also Mark 2:1-10 and 2:27-28

    Also in John 5:17-42 and 8:24; and 8:56-59 and 9:35-41 and 10:27-39 and 14:9 and 20:28-29 (affirms Thomas confession of Him as Lord and God.)

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  11. Paul, I am not debating you. I really want to know whether these men believe in Jesus’ unique birth, because if they don’t then they are disgraceful and need to be exposed. Even Muhammad believed in Jesus’ miraculous birth!

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  12. Uncle Paul Williams, If I were you I would simply ignore this troll. Doesn’t worth your valuable time, talk to James White or Dr Wallace. Just ignore him.

    Like

  13. James Dunn does not seem to really believe in the virgin birth, it seems to me. As Kermit Zarley wrote, these guys who are more liberal dance around and don’t answer the questions straight out. I don’t know about Tom Wright on that specific issue; I was under the impression that he did affirm the virginal conception of Jesus.

    From the evidence here, it seems Dunn didn’t really believe in the virgin conception/birth of Christ.

    https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/liberal-pastors-and-liberal-scholars-and-muslims-using-them-3-2/

    Like

  14. Kermit Zarley came out years ago with a book that denied the Deity of Christ and denied the doctrine of the Trinity. So, it makes sense that Muslims might use his material.

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  15. I would suggest the same thing to Br. Yahya. If you are reading it.

    Like

  16. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Kermit Zarley came out years ago with a book that denied the Deity of Christ and denied the doctrine of the Trinity. So, it makes sense that Muslims might use his material.

    I say;
    The unfortunate reality for you is that, he is not the only one Christian who denied the deity of Christ. It started from the 1st century till today. Some Christians were killed and persecuted for rejecting the idea that Jesus is God

    Why do you accuse the Quran for denying the deity of Christ when your own Christian scholars and First century Christians denied the deity of Christ?

    and continued till today with other Christians denying the deity of Christ?

    The Jews reject the deity of Christ. Any one who believed there is God but do not have a religion will reject the idea that Jesus is God.

    You are alone(Trinitarians) but the Quran has followers when it comes to rejecting the deity of Christ, even if they do not believe in the Quran.

    It is about 1 God not 3 persons with each person being a being and therefore 3 beings which is polytheism and/or idolatry and so the Quran wins by sticking to 1 God.

    You can argue with me till eternity that you do not believe you are worshiping 3 beings, but that is what is it because no person can be a person without being a being. Therefor 3 persons is 3 beings, just like million persons will be million beings as some people believe is their God and it is polytheism and idol worship because of the multiplicity of persons.

    If God can be 3 persons i.e. more than 1 person, then He can be 4,5,6…………… according to people’s scripture.

    Thanks.

    Like

  17. Sam your standard response to anyone who might disagree with your views is:

    “disgraceful and need to be exposed”

    as you wrote above.

    Have you any idea just how immature that sounds to people? You are a true religious fanatic. It is why no one will debate you.

    Any now follows the predictable abuse….

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Williams, did you even bother reading my words? I said that Wright and Dunn need to be exposed to the lay people since how can a person be a Christian while denying the virgin birth? I would think that as a Muslim you would be in agreement with me since, like I said, even Muhammad believed in the virgin birth.

    So now, do they or don’t they believe in it?

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  19. Sam you just don’t get it do you?

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  20. Man, talk about a coward. No wonder you won’t debate James White, David Wood, myself etc., since you know what we would do to you for being such an inconsistent, Christian hating Christophobe. You even can’t help yourself from stalking Christians by terrorizing their twitter accounts. Talk about a person with serious mental health issues. And yet you have the audacity to accuse me of having issues!

    Like

  21. Any now follows the predictable abuse….

    just as I said you would.

    Like

  22. Paul Williams

    You said;
    Have you any idea just how immature that sounds to people? You are a true religious fanatic. It is why no one will debate you.

    I say;
    Debate who? Sam? You must be kidding. I always accuse his team for lack of knowledge to debate or write book on Islam but I give them credit for attaining other qualifications i.e. Nabeel being a medical Doctor and trying to obtain a Christian degree. How about Sam, he is so unintelligent to pursue a single course except degree in insults to get his pay from those who wants him to insult.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. yes, he is the serious mental case come here so that he can make some money. All he is capable of thrash talk.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. I believe Sam had or has a restaurant in Chicago. Isn’t that so Sam?

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  25. If God can be 3 persons i.e. more than 1 person, then He can be 4,5,6…………… according to people’s scripture.

    No; because Matthew 28:19 and 2 Cor. 13:14 ; 1 Peter 1:2; (and all rest of NT Trinitarian verses) limit the Trinity to 3 persons.

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  26. none of those verse speak of a trinity dude. Easy to refute that.

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  27. Sam Shamoun

    You said;
    You even can’t help yourself from stalking Christians by terrorizing their twitter accounts. Talk about a person with serious mental health issues. And yet you have the audacity to accuse me of having issues!

    I say;
    I wonder why this should disturb your sleep. You started stalking on Muslims by terrorising everything about Muslims and insulting them. You terrorise ijaz, Yahya Snow, Muslim Debate Initiative, muslimbychoice, sami zatari, adnan Rashid etc. and lastly Paul Williams himself by sending his posts to Mike Licona, Dr. James White etc. for refutation.

    Yes, there is electronic war going on to be able to minimize the lies from other side and what Paul Williams is doing is a duty for all Muslims and there is nothing wrong to tweet. Don’t you tweet?

    Your ABN TV station is there electronically to terrorize and demonize Muslims and how dare you challenge its opposition. You will die with pain. We will not stop defending our religion from any tweeter account.

    Paul keep on your good work, it is really hurting Sam, that his religion is incorrect and do not listen to him.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. What’s so funny is that, he puts himself on the same level as James White what next Dr Wallace? lol, Not even in your dreams. Those guys don’t start insulting people and their beliefs, especially Dr Wallace. You on the other hand make people sick.

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  29. Ken Temple

    You said;
    If God can be 3 persons i.e. more than 1 person, then He can be 4,5,6…………… according to people’s scripture.

    No; because Matthew 28:19 and 2 Cor. 13:14 ; 1 Peter 1:2; (and all rest of NT Trinitarian verses) limit the Trinity to 3 persons.

    I say;
    That may be your scripture, even though it is not true there. Other people like Mormons too have more than 3 persons in there scripture. You cannot bully them and shut them down because you all believe in multiple persons as God.

    I said it. Trinitarians are bullies. They will accuse others for saying what they(Trinitarians) said. You said multiple persons are possible for God. We say ok. there are so many multiple persons religions like Rastafarians, Mormons, Hindus etc.

    Trinitarians will say. Our limit of 3 persons is right. This is bully.

    Muslims and Jews will not say our God is right or the other is not right. The Quran only we worship Him(God) and Christians but drew the red line in the Jesus is not God and do not say 3′

    Those Christians from the 1st century till today who do not believe Jesus is God is worshiping the same God as Muslims and Jews.

    Trinitarians on the other hand are worshiping multiple persons like Rastafarians, Hindus, Mormons etc.

    You will obviously say that is not the case but it is.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. thanks Intellect. For the record not a single Christian has ever complained to me about my tweets, nor has any Christian taken the trouble to block me from reading/responding to their twitter feed. I post many of my twitter exchanges on this blog for all to see.

    No one has ever remotely accused me of “terrorizing their twitter accounts”.

    Sam is suffering from seriously delusions. Needs help. Now.

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  31. none of those verse speak of a trinity dude. Easy to refute that.

    The doctrine of the Trinity is derived from those verses and others also.
    they list, “the Father”, “the Son”, and “the Holy Spirit”

    other verses teach there is only one God.
    other verses teach Deity of Christ, and others Deity of Holy Spirit
    other verses show the Father and Son and Holy Spirit in relational expressions, the Father loves the Son, the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the Spirit; the Son prays to the Father, the Spirit testifies to the Son, etc.

    therefore,
    One God, in three Divine Persons:
    Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

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  32. The Doctrine of the Trinity: Unitas Trinitas and Trinitas Unitas (Latin for: One in three and three in one)
    https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-trinitas-unitas-unitas-trinitas/

    Like

  33. incorrect. You have failed to define what the Trinity supposedly is.

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three consubstantial persons or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; “one God in three persons”. The three persons are distinct, yet are one “substance, essence or nature”.

    The people of the Trinity (plural of person is people) are all co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, “each is God, whole and entire”.

    Nowhere does the Bible teach this.

    Ken, you read back into first century texts the theology of the fourth century. You commit the intellectual sin of anachronism.

    Like

  34. Ken Temple

    It did not say God is limited to 3 persons. This is a very important information and it must be clear, so that Rastafarians, Mormons and others will not extend it. God might reveal himself to other scriptures you might not believe in.

    Jews do not believe in your scripture, but you believed God revealed Himself in there because of the multiplicity of persons.

    Yeah man, God has revealed himself in other scriptures as well.

    other verses said
    -you should be holding poisonous snake, it will not bite you.
    -drink poison it will not hurt you
    -Ghosts came out of their graves and walked through the streets of Jerusalem
    -Jesus(God) was beaten to death
    You are talking about scripture above. Some Christians are doing the above and being killed. If you can start handling poisonous snakes, then you it will make you a true believer of scripture.

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  35. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three consubstantial persons or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; “one God in three persons”. The three persons are distinct, yet are one “substance, essence or nature”.

    The people of the Trinity (plural of person is people) are all co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, “each is God, whole and entire”. by nature/substance/essense

    All true.

    Nowhere does the Bible teach this.

    False

    Ken, you read back into first century texts the theology of the fourth century. You commit the intellectual sin of anachronism.

    No; Ignatius (107 AD) calls Jesus “our God” 5 times in his letters, and Justin Martyr defended the Deity of Christ (155 AD), Tertullian (200 AD), Irenaeus, Origen 250, Athanasius 300-373 AD, Augustine 354-429 AD, Hillary (310-367 AD) all argued from Scripture to develop the doctrine of the Trinity from proper exegesis and harmonization of all of what Scripture teaches about God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    Like

  36. Ignatius, (107-110 AD) in His Epistle to the Ephesians contains the largest number of such references. For example, he reminds the Ephesian church that their sufferings came only by “the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God.”

    In chapter 7, Ignatius clearly affirms that “Jesus Christ our Lord” is “God in the flesh” (Ephesians 7.2). Ignatius later refers to “our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God,” adding, “Whatever we do, then, let it be done as though He Himself were dwelling within us, we being as it were His temples and He within us as their God” (Ephesians 15.3). Ignatius refers to Jesus’ deity in relation to the incarnation in two other passages: “For our God, Jesus the Christ, was according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost” (Ephesians 18.2), and “God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life” (Ephesians 19.3).

    Ignatius also addressed an epistle to the Roman church, calling them “beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God.” Ignatius wishes the Romans an “abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.”9 He conveys to them his desire to imitate the “suffering of my God,” and he asserts, “our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father, is all the more revealed (in glory)” (Romans 3.3;6.3).

    Ignatius tells the church of Smyrna, “I glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom” and refers to “Christ our God” (Smyrnaeans 1.1;10.1).10 He exhorts the Trallians, “Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God” (Trallians 7). Ignatius also relates to Polycarp, “I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ” (Polycarp 8).

    Like

  37. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Nowhere does the Bible teach this.

    False

    I say;
    Ken did not provide any where in the Bible that defined this

    ///////////////////////
    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three consubstantial persons or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; “one God in three persons”. The three persons are distinct, yet are one “substance, essence or nature”.

    The people of the Trinity (plural of person is people) are all co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, “each is God, whole and entire”. by nature/substance/essense

    All true.
    //////////////////////

    Ken will just copy some verses that did not say the above but insists that is what is said. Ken if the definition above is in the Bible, why defined it again outside the Bible?

    Just like the people of prophet Abrahams nation, Trinitarians will defend their multiple persons Gods who has a generated/created Son against the only true God of Abraham.

    You say God is not Son to anyone, and anything that is Son is not God, they will say we do not believe God gave birth to Jesus. Then why put the Son there? instead of “executives” because they are co-equal?

    Son means son and can be metaphorical or literal and you will not accept either. Why put it there to create confusion? if God is not author of confusion?

    Watch this video for learning purpose. (Compare)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axRWhbL8QFM

    PANDORAS BOX

    God closed his pandoras box by saying He is One, Only and Alone preached by all prophets and emphasised by Abraham.

    Others rejected and are worshiping multiple persons.

    Trinitarians opened the pandoras box and say it is possible to have multiple persons. Then there are religions with multiple persons which is against the oneness of God.

    Trinitarians will want to close the pandoras box after their own desires and reject others. Pandoras box is not for Trinitarians alone. It is just like a balloon. Once a balloon is pierced to accommodate air, there will be air that you do not want.

    Thanks.

    Like

  38. Paul Williams, funny thing that you were able to prophesy the future which is something even your own profit failed to do.

    And dude, what are you smoking? Where in the world did you get that I own a restaurant? Please lay off the Quran recitation and stone kissing, since they are harming your sense of reality. 😉

    Like

  39. Shamoun: Where in the world did you get that I own a restaurant?

    I agree. It is implausible that a dumb, uneducated, piece of shit who lives off donations owns a restaurant.

    Liked by 1 person

  40. It’s ironic that Sam put his name as ‘YahyaSlime’s Nightmare’. He’s correct. He is a nightmare. Any dream of Sam will give someone PTSD. Heck, just listening to him causes some people to want to vomit.

    Liked by 3 people

  41. Kgetsmackeddown, for a minute there I thought you were describing Muhammad whom you boast was an illiterate ignoramus. Then I became convinced that you did have Muhammad in mind since Allah made him rich from all the donations his jihadi thugs looted from the people they murdered and the women they raped and prostituted:

    Did He not find you as an orphan and give you shelter? Did He not find you wandering about and give you guidance? And did He not find you in need AND MAKE YOU RICH?” S. 93:6-8 Muhammad Sarwar

    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Whenever a dead man in debt was brought to Allah’s Apostle he would ask, “Has he left anything to repay his debt?” If he was informed that he had left something to repay his debts, he would offer his funeral prayer, otherwise he would tell the Muslims to offer their friend’s funeral prayer. When Allah made the Prophet wealthy through conquests, he said, “I am more rightful than other believers to be the guardian of the believers, so if a Muslim dies while in debt, I am responsible for the repayment of his debt, and whoever leaves wealth (after his death) it will belong to his heirs.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 37, Number 495)

    One of the ways in which Allah made his prophet rich was through the plunder stolen from caravans and military expeditions since a fifth of the booty had to be given to Muhammad:

    They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers. S. 8:1 Pickthall

    And know that whatever ye take as spoils of war, lo! a fifth thereof is for Allah, and for the messenger and for the kinsman (who hath need) and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if ye believe in Allah and that which We revealed unto Our slave on the Day of Discrimination, the day when the two armies met. And Allah is Able to do all things. S. 8:41 Pickthall

    Muhammad even owned many homes!

    O believers, enter not the HOUSES of the Prophet, except leave is given you for a meal, without watching for its hour. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have had the meal, disperse, neither lingering for idle talk; that is hurtful to the Prophet, and he is ashamed before you; but God is not ashamed before the truth. And when you ask his wives for any object, ask them from behind a curtain; that is cleaner for your hearts and theirs. It is not for you to hurt God’s Messenger, neither to marry his wives after him, ever; surely that would be, in God’s sight, a monstrous thing. S. 33:53 Arberry

    Allah even promised to compensate Muslims for the financial loss they would experience as a result of the pagans being banished from Mecca through the taxation which would be imposed on the people of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians):

    O believers, the idolaters are indeed unclean; so let them not come near the Holy Mosque after this year of theirs. If you fear poverty, God shall surely enrich you of His bounty, if He will; God is All-knowing; All-wise. Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden — such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled. S. 9:28-29 Arberry

    From the foregoing we can see that Muhammad was far from being destitute and that Islam turned out to be a very lucrative endeavor for both Muhammad and the Muslims.

    No wonder you call him the seal of the profits! 😉

    So maybe if you stopped smearing your face with all that crap which you recite on a daily basis you would be able to realize that whenever you open your pagan, stop kissing mouth to insult me or anyone else I will then take it out on your prophet and his idol. Now try and pretend you actually believe in your Crap…. err, I mean Quran and start heeding the warning of Quran 6:108.

    Now that is what I call OUCH!

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  42. Oh My My son of obesity keeps coming back for more what a shameless douche.who insulted your religion here dummy, yes you are your own wife’s worst nightmare. get a real job for once, mop a floor with your fat belly. Psycho.

    Liked by 1 person

  43. You know what’s OUCH Sam? White + Email. Even he thinks you’re despicable. Why don’t you share it with us? We both know what I’m referring to.

    Liked by 1 person

  44. BTW, I’m not sure if Sam’s GED is helping him, but he quotes a hadith trying to insult the Prophet peace be upon him…..when the hadith says the opposite. He was repaying people’s debts…

    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Whenever a dead man in debt was brought to Allah’s Apostle he would ask, “Has he left anything to repay his debt?” If he was informed that he had left something to repay his debts, he would offer his funeral prayer, otherwise he would tell the Muslims to offer their friend’s funeral prayer. When Allah made the Prophet wealthy through conquests, he said, “I am more rightful than other believers to be the guardian of the believers, so if a Muslim dies while in debt, I am responsible for the repayment of his debt, and whoever leaves wealth (after his death) it will belong to his heirs.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 37, Number 495)

    Liked by 2 people

  45. I can’t stop laughing at Sam. This was a guy who’s daughter was sick and had to be rushed to the ER with his wife. This guy goes on Facebook and asks for a prayer for his daughter and instead of going to the hospital, he then posts on Facebook that he’s having a Paltalk session!

    This is the morality of the man who curses the Prophet (peace be upon him). A abandoned his daughter so he could argue with random people online! What a ‘man’.

    Even his own Christians are SICK of him, rebuking him for his nastiness. Every week he’s banning Christians who disagree with him. This week he’s in love with Jonathan, yet I could remember a time that Sam was sending nasty emails about him and blocked him on Facebook.

    Sam, be a man and share what White has said about you. We both know that you do not dare stand up to him. You know the authority he has over you and the backlash you’d face for what was said in that email exchange. We both know this wasn’t the first rebuking he’s done of you, I have the one previous to this too. You seem to think that by insulting the Prophet (peace be upon him), that you’re doing us some harm. It’s quite the opposite, we use it to show fellow Christians just how disgusting and useless you are. That’s what our common friend did and look at the email your elders had to send you.

    Sigh, why do I waste my time on an uneducated ignoramus with no scholastic qualifications and who survives off of donations of Christians who he later blocks and insults. Sigh, I’m wasting my time on a man who abandoned his sick daughter to insult Muslims online. Mate, you aren’t taking anything out on our Prophet, you’re taking it out on your own family.

    Sam, ask David what emails I have about him that got him angry. I have similar emails about you. There are many disgruntled people who know your sick and disgusting behaviour within the Christian community. Think ABN’s emails were the only ones I had? I dare you to send Jonathan the emails in which you spoke about him with you know who. Does he know what you really think of him?

    😀

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  46. Oh and if anyone wants to know what the Christian scholar Gilchrist thinks about Sam, ask Sam about it! He’ll shut his mouth quite quickly. Yes, the same Gilchrist that he quotes from and references, the famous one from South Africa. Sam knows who I am talking about. Sam, how many years ago was this that the incident happened? You know you tried to hide this from getting out, but Gilchrist knew how sick and perverted you were. What was Gilchrist’s comments about you? Why don’t you share them, or do you want me to? Yes…..I have those correspondences too.

    ABN, Gilchrist, Jonathan…I have lots of fun stuff about Sam. I’m just waiting for the right time to release them all. Let’s see if Sam is man enough to share with his hero Gilchrist said about him. I’m sure most people are, in fact, I’m sure almost no one except the Christians in South Africa who tried to arrange your visit along with Gilchrist, know what was said about you. It’s still being said today.

    I dare Sam to share with us the email from 28.01.16. He is not a man. He’s an keyboard warrior, internet thug and laughing stock of the Christian community. At least one of the things I mentioned in the last sentence Gilchrist also mentioned 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  47. “He’s an keyboard warrior, internet thug and laughing stock of the Christian community. At least one of the things I mentioned in the last sentence Gilchrist also mentioned ”

    Too hard to guess all of them fit perfectly

    Liked by 1 person

  48. Well, that’s true, but I’m just putting this here so that Sam knows that I know. Messages from M. G. to Sam G. (yes the gay one, with the one named after your false apostle), December 2nd 2015. You’re welcome.

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  49. We’ve no problem with your religion, we have a problem with you and your profanity. We don’t insult your religion like the way you do and you are disgusting. It just makes you look like a monkey who cannot control himself. read all the comments on this post who insulted your religion, referring us to Qur’an, lol. Calling our book a crap you are really an arse.

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  50. See Ken temple comments on this post, compare them against yours, you make me sick. ouch ouch, we don’t feel it. You think you are making interesting comments,far from it. just like a mad man thinks he is flying a jet when is sitting on a log.

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  51. Lay off from stone kissing? hardly Muslims get to kiss the stone even during the hajj or Umrah. It sucks to be you, it really does. boy, i cant wait to see you perish.

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  52. By calling our holy book a crap indirectly, you insulted your own Jesus,Mary they all present in our book. You are no longer a Christian you are a pagan. I can also unleash tons of insults they all can be consider as a low blow, i am not an ape.

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  53. Shamoun: Kgetsmackeddown, for a minute there I thought you were describing Muhammad….

    You’re so stupid you don’t even know when people are talking about you.

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  54. I really couldn’t control the laughter that threw me into fits as I read the comments of ‘esteemed’ brother Ken Temple. Though they appear academic as usual, they betray the academic consensus on the writings of bishop Ignatius.
    If I may set records straight sir, the extant work of Ignatius are treated with extreme caution. Scholars generally are comfortable viewing them as ‘forgeries’ and ‘corruption of the original’. The epistle to the Ephesians in particular refers to ‘the catholic church’ which was not formed until after Nicaea.
    It is difficult to really ascertain what the old bishop believes. All attempts hence to trace trinity to the early second century fall on the face. There seems to be no writer then who knows of it. Earliest reliable reference is bishop theophilus (150AD).
    There is debate by the way as to whether the new testament verses you conjured up really teach that christ is divine. Hamza Abdul Malik in a debate with Dr James White did a good job arguing they don’t.
    You probably need better proofs for the trinity Sir Temple. Appeals to history and the new testament haven’t helped.

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  55. I was only quoting from the established/ authentic writings of Ignatius. It is true that there are OTHERS that were attributed to Ignatius, but they are spurious and found to have written much later; and there are later versions of the credible ones that are expanded, but scholarship has established the credible 7 letters of Ignatius.

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  56. Ignatius to the Smyrneans 8:2 – η καθολικη εκκλησια = hae katholikae ekklesia = the “catholic church” – “catholic” καθολικη comes from two words, κατα / καθ and ‘ολικος / holikos = “according to the whole” or “universal”. the ta of kata changes to a th (and the a drops off) when followed by a word beginning with a vowel.

    εκκλησια καθ ‘ολικος = ekklasia kath holikos = “church according to the whole, or “universal church” – “cath-olic” was used in the authentic letter of Ignatius and was also used earlier in Acts 9:31.

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  57. the word also contains another sense ‘Catholic’ as opposed to other Christian groups that reject Catholic teaching, as you yourself reject Ignatius’s views on the Eucharist. So you are not part of the same Catholic Church as him.

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  58. I disagree, since the way Ignatius uses “eucharist” is fine; and a Protestant has no problem with it, in the way that Ignatius uses it, because he is talking about the Docetics who did not believe Jesus had a body at all. Protestants agree with Roman Catholics that Jesus had a real physical body.

    we are “catholic” also, in the early sense, before it became “Roman Catholic”.

    Ignatius has no understanding of any kind of transubstantiation. (developed much later)

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  59. Ignatius was definitely not a Protestant. His views were Catholic.

    On the Eucharist he believed the following:

    In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ignatius addresses the issue of those who do not believe as the Catholic Church does:

    ‘Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God… They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.’ —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 6

    Here Ignatius equates the Eucharist to the same flesh of Christ that suffered for our sake on the cross. Jesus also uses this literal comparison when he explained, “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh” (John 6:51).

    Ignatius also explains that the Eucharist must be administered either by a bishop or one of his ordained ministers:

    Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.—Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8

    source:

    http://www.catholic.com/blog/jon-sorensen/apologetics-with-st-ignatius-of-antioch

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  60. Ignatius “to the Smyrneans” 6, should also be read in light of the beginning of letter (1-4), where he shows he is writing against the heretics of Docetism (“to seem” that Jesus had a body and suffered). He even says the believer’s faith is “as if they were nailed to the cross”, so take note of how he is using language, when looking at chapter 6.

    I Glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom. For I have observed that ye are perfected in an immoveable faith, as if ye were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, both in the flesh and in the spirit, and are established in love through the blood of Christ, being fully persuaded with respect to our Lord, that He was truly of the seed of David according to the flesh, and the Son of God according to the will and power of God; that He was truly born of a virgin, was baptized by John, in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him; and was truly, under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch, nailed [to the cross] for us in His flesh. Of this fruit we are by His divinely-blessed passion, that He might set up a standard for all ages, through His resurrection, to all His holy and faithful [followers], whether among Jews or Gentiles, in the one body of His Church.

    Now, He suffered all these things for our sakes, that we might be saved. And He suffered truly, even as also He truly raised up Himself, not, as certain unbelievers maintain, that He only seemed to suffer, as they themselves only seem to be [Christians]. And as they believe, so shall it happen unto them, when they shall be divested of their bodies, and be mere evil spirits.

    For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, “Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit.” And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after his resurrection He did eat and drink with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.

    I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that ye also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I
    guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so in the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him, He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me.

    Ignatius To the Smyrneans, 1-4

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  61. Now, He suffered all these things for our sakes, that we might be saved. And He suffered truly, even as also He truly raised up Himself, not, as certain unbelievers maintain, that He only seemed to suffer, as they themselves only seem to be [Christians]. And as they believe, so shall it happen unto them, when they shall be divested of their bodies, and be mere evil spirits. Smyrneans, 3

    He was clearly combating Docetism, a form of the larger movement of Gnoticism.

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  62. very nice history lesson Ken but you have overlooked the point: his Catholic teaching on the Eucharist which you reject,

    “the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ”

    all the early fathers believed the same.

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  63. Aside from Islamic disagreement with the cross, and, maybe Muslims think Jesus would not have even said these things at the last supper . . .

    Assuming they are true as written,

    Do you think Jesus meant that when He was in His incarnation body and held up bread and a cup of wine and said, “this is My body” and “this is My blood” ??

    obviously He meant, “this represents (or is a symbol of) My body and blood”

    We agree with the early fathers that there is a spiritual presence of Jesus by faith, in deeper communion/fellowship with Him spiritually, if we first confess our sins and repent and make things right in relationships first, and then take the supper. (what 1 Cor. 11 teaches – examine yourself first, confess sins, reconcile with others if they have something against you, etc.; then partake in the Lord’s supper.)

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  64. Yes, I reject Transubstantiation (that the bread and wine become Christ’s body and blood literally by the word of a priest) (superstition and magic); and genuflecting (bowing, acknowledging, worshiping bread – that it has become Jesus) before the consecrated bread and wine (idolatry).

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  65. Ken are you no longer willing to address the question about the Eucharist?

    you wrote,

    “the way Ignatius uses “eucharist” is fine; and a Protestant has no problem with it, in the way that Ignatius uses it”

    I pointed out that Ignatius (and all the early fathers) in fact had very different views from you about it.

    Ignatius taught:

    “the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ”

    So the early fathers were wrong?

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  66. you are cutting a phrase out of the larger context – he is clearly talking about the heretics/ docetists who deny that Christ had a body or was crucified or suffered.

    He probably means “the eucharist represents the flesh of Christ, which was truly and literally a body of flesh and bones and blood and was crucified literally and physically, etc.”

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  67. He means it the same way that Jesus meant at the last supper; since He was IN HIS BODY when speaking – “this is My body” could not mean literally, because then there would have been 2 Jesus’ at the last supper.

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  68. no, Ignatius doesn’t say it ‘represents’, he say the Eucharist IS the flesh and blood of Jesus. Its crude physicalist doctrine.

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  69. What do you think Jesus meant when He said, “this is My body” ?
    Symbol
    or
    Literal, making 2 Jesus’ there in space and history?

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  70. no idea. I don’t believe he said it in the first place – neither do many NT scholars.

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  71. Jesus said:
    I am the true vine – John 15:1

    I am the door – John 10:9

    I am the light of the world – John 8:12

    obvious symbols

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  72. Did you actually read what I wrote sir? My claim was simple and general. Perhaps you do not understand it. I hence would paraphrase it thus:
    ‘All extant works of bishop Ignatius should be treated with extreme caution. They are all spurious. The’ supposed’ genuine ones with better textual and manuscript support are regarded in scholarly circles CORRUPTIONS OF THE ORIGINAL’. A few scholars such as Dr Philip Schaff even reject them as being original in the first place. It is therefore disingenuous to speak of them the way you do. No one really knows what the good bishop believed and taught’.
    I find it funny in the meantime that you believe there could be a ‘church of the whole’ in a setting where divisions were absent. It does prove a lot about my recent thoughts of you (I’m not willing to share what they are).
    You seem to miss the point besides. Scholars have not dismissed Ignatius because he mentioned the word ‘catholic’, they do because his views are more aligned with catholic ideals. Other than the example brother Williams provided above, several others abound. Another is this:
    Clarke Carlton (in What Every Protestant should Know Of The Orthodox Church) noted that ‘ St. Ignatius’
    clearly defined use of
    bishop and presbyter
    is highly unusual for
    this point in Church
    history. Nor can it be
    denied that he places a
    much greater emphasis
    on the role of bishop
    than do the other
    authors’.
    In other words, Ignatius was the first who spoke of hierarchy in the early church classifying it in the words:
    “All of you
    follow the bishop, as
    Jesus Christ followed
    the Father, and the
    presbytery as the
    Apostles; respect the
    deacons as the
    ordinance of
    God” (Smyrnaeans 8).
    Only catholics have got this system.

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  73. Ken, in agreement with the vast majority of conservative and liberal scholars I don’t think the historical Jesus actually said any of those things.

    The weight of the arguments is very strongly against their historicity.

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  74. the shorter letters of Ignatius are not spurious – the 7 authentic letters of Ignatius (the short versions of them) are not spurious.

    But you are right in that Ignatius is the first one to exalt one man out from the college of presbyters-overseers and call him bishop – a mono-episcopate. He is the first in extant history to do that.

    Before that, each church had a plurality / college of elders (presbyters) – overseers (episcopos) = bishops
    Acts 14:23 – elders for each church
    Philippians 1:1 – two offices – overseers and deacons
    Titus 1:5-7 – elder is also an overseer
    Acts 20:17, 28 – elders do the work of teaching and shepherding and overseeing (doing bishop’s work)
    1 Peter 5:1-4 – all elders do the work of shepherding, teaching, and overseeing (doing bishop’s work)

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  75. Ijaz “I got serious daddy issues and therefore need someone to show me love” Ahmad is the perfect example of what happens when someone truly follows Muhammad from the depth of his/her heart. Remember that this is the same cowardly troll who has admitted that he backed down and refused to debate me when asked by Christians to do so.

    Every Christian apologist under the planet is repulsed by this childish thug’s lies and slanders (just as White, Rogers, McLatchie etc.), which is why this troll is reduced to attacking people on his blog by twisting their words and lying about them with no shame and honor. What do you expect from a person who publicly whined and complained about the abuse that his daddy subjected him to, thereby shaming and dishonoring his family, especially his poor little mother? A troll is a troll.

    Now to expose this wicked deceiver’s projection and lies, GILCHRIST HAS NEVER SAID ANYTHING DEROGATORY TO ME. In fact, I am on good terms with him. So I am going to expose this son of satan and challenge him to produce whatever email he imagines was sent to me for all to see.

    Moreover, Lord willing I will be teaching Jonathan MacLatchie’s apologetics group this coming Saturday. In fact, have this coward post last week’s meeting with Yusuf Ismail so everyone can hear how Ismail went berserk after I demolished his argument concerning John 10:27-39. Like Ijaz, he started whining and complaining like a baby AND NEVER REFUTED ME. In order to prevent him form further humiliating himself and from making a fool of himself, I told Jonathan I will leave the discussion and rejoin when Ismail is finished.

    Now let me call Ijaz’s bluff for all to see. Give me a time when you can come to my room so we see how well you do defending your trash and lies. Hopefully, you will do better than the last time when you made the stupid mistake of coming to my room . We all still remember that! 😉

    Now let us see who the man is, and who pretends to be one but in reality is nothing more than when of those young boys that Muslim men are eagerly awaiting to be served by them as a reward from their god, along with all those swelling breasted whores waiting to be deflowered:

    As to the Righteous, they will be in Gardens, and in Happiness,- Enjoying the (Bliss) which their Lord hath bestowed on them, and their Lord shall deliver them from the Chastisement of the Fire. (To them will be said:) “Eat and drink ye, with profit and health, because of your (good) deeds.” They will recline (with ease) upon couches arranged in ranks; and WE SHALL WED THEM TO MAIDENS, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes. And those who believe and whose seeds follow them in Faith,- to them shall We join their families: nor shall We deprive them (of the fruit) of aught of their works: (Yet) is each individual in pledge for his deeds. And We shall bestow on them, of fruit and meat, anything they shall desire. They shall there exchange, one with another, a cup free of frivolity, free of sin, Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them: YOUTHS (handsome) AS PEARLS well-guarded. S. 52:17-24

    “Surely for the godfearing awaits a place of security, gardens and vineyards, and maidens of SWELLING BREASTS (kawa’ib), like of age, and a cup overflowing.” S. 78:33 Arberry (see also Dawood, Rodwell)

    Ibn Kathir gives a more fully detailed description of what these breasts look like:

    meaning, wide-eyed maidens WITH FULLY DEVELOPED BREASTS. Ibn ‘Abbas, Mujahid and others have said,

    “This means ROUND BREASTS. They meant by this THAT THE BREASTS OF THESE GIRLS WILL BE FULLY ROUNDED AND NOT SAGGING, because they will be virgins, equal in age…” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Abridged, Volume 10, Surat At-Tagabun to the end of the Qur’an, pp. 333-334; capital emphasis ours)

    Interestingly, one Sunni Muslim writer quotes certain Muslim authorities who acknowledge that the Quran’s language can be quite erotic and that this particular reference can even cause persons to get aroused. In response to the unfairness of men having up to 70 wives whereas women will only have one husband in paradise, G.F. Haddad states:

    We do not know with certainty that there will be such a restriction on women even if the reverse would hardly be mentionable to a decent woman. A woman in the traditional world would and does consider it a horrible thing to say to her that “You can have all the men you want”! The Qur’an would never use inappropriate language. However, the Qur’an does mention that for the inhabitants of Paradise – male and female – {There wait on them immortal youths} (56:17), {There serve them youths of everlasting youth, whom, when you see them, you would take for scattered pearls} (76:19). If this does not make a believing woman happy then, as Imam al-Shafi`i said to the one WHO IS NOT MOVED BY EROTIC POETRY, “You have no feelings.” As for the believing men, as one of the Awliya said, some of them will need GHUSL just FOR HEARING THE VERSE {Same-age young-bosomed girls} (78:33). As for us hard-hearted analphabets we may read it and read it without effect. (Haddad, Sex with slaves and women’s rights; source; capital and underline emphasis ours)

    Ghusl refers, in this specific context, to the ritual bathing of the body that a Muslim must perform after sexual intercourse or because of a seminal discharge. What the author is essentially saying is that Surah 78:33 can cause a person to be aroused to such an extent that he ends up having an emission!

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  76. Conservative scholars believe Jesus said them, especially “this is My body” and “this is My blood”

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  77. BTW, to expose this lowlife thug for what he is, do you notice how he mentions me rushing my daughter to the ER with my wife? Even dogs wouldn’t stoop so low as to mention people’s daughters being sick enough to . But remember, being a Muhammadan all that little girls are good for are to be deflowered by jihadi thugs. Just ask Ijaz’s prophet, who deflowered an immature 9 year old minor who was still playing with dolls.

    Now you see why this lowlife thug is blacklisted by the likes of White, Wood and MacLatchie. He makes ISIS look like a humanitarian aid group.

    Now Ijaz, bring your barking to my room so we can have fun at your expense and your profit’s. 😉

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  78. The historical Jesus said all of them, especially “this is My body” and “this is My blood”
    Mark 14:22-24

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  79. Sam, it’s your habit to repeat the same old crap, you just love to insult the Prophet. No one insulted Jesus, Holy ghost here. And you wonder why Muslims don’t take you seriously.

    Liked by 1 person

  80. Seeking to be just as illiterate as his prophet, notice how Ijaz “My daddy doesn’t love me” justifies his prophet having his thugs rape and prostitute the women whose men they murdered and whose wealth and possession they stole:

    “BTW, I’m not sure if Sam’s GED is helping him, but he quotes a hadith trying to insult the Prophet peace be upon him…..when the hadith says the opposite. He was repaying people’s debts…”

    It seems that you should have gotten a GED since your Islamic education which you received in your local madrassa obviously didn’t help you think. Let’s break down your logic for Allah making Muhammad rich at the expense and lives of others.

    The reason why Allah had his jihadi thugs murder people and loot them was because he wanted to make Muhammad so rich that Muhammad could then pay off the debts of people! So basically murdering unsuspecting people, and having women prostituted and raped, didn’t matter since what was really more important for Allah was to find a way to make sure that Muhammad paid off the debts of all those poor Muslims who couldn’t afford to do so!

    Yep, this guy is truly a genius!

    now what don’t you come to my room and raise this objection for all to see and hear as we record it for all to see what I end up doing to you for defending such filth, and for lying and slandering people in imitation of your profit’s sunna.

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  81. shahid, either you’re lying or you haven’t been around long enough to hear and read all the blasphemies and insults that your fellow Muhammadans level against the Lord Jesus and the Holy Bible.

    Tell your ikhwaan to start practicing Quran 6:108 since that will make life much better for you Muhammadans.

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  82. She was playing with dolls, do you know today 30 years plus man play with dolls (I mean with video games). 30 years old plus haven’t reached the puberty either just because they play with gadgets.

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  83. Anyway, as much as I enjoyed it, I am done embarrassing that childish thug Ijaz “can someone please be my daddy!” Ahmad. Now Ijaz can look me up in my room so we can see who the real keyboard tough guy is.

    Williams thank you for again allowing me to give you guys a well deserved taste of your own medicine. Much appreciated.

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  84. Gentlemen, and Sam

    the topic of this thread is Does Tom Wright Believe Jesus Is God?
    try and focus on it

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  85. lol, no one insulted Jesus on this post. why are you making it about prophet we are talking about this post not any other post.

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  86. Williams, try telling that to the other trolls who started attacking me when I was talking to you.

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  87. Sam try taking responsibility for your own actions. It is easy to criticise others.

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  88. Given his raging obsession with Muhammad (saw), could it be that deep down Sam is actually a believer and all the vitriolic things he says about the Prophet (saw) is simply a hopelessly desperate attempt to suppress what his soul acknowledges, that Muhammad (saw) is a Messenger of God? Consider that some of the most raging homophobes turned out to be gay themselves. Or maybe Sam is just batshit crazy?

    Liked by 1 person

  89. the latter. All religions have their extremists and deranged nutters.

    Liked by 1 person

  90. Williams, when you have filthy foul mouthed punks like Kstumped talking crap it’s hard to not to treat them the way they deserve since this is the only way you can put bullies and thugs in their place. This guy is despicable, just like some of the other trolls that frequent here like Ijaz “daddy issues”.

    To show you how truth challenged this teenager is, if what he says is true then that means “deep down this guy actually must take” me to be a better prophet than his own profit, “since all the vitriolic things he says about” me “is simply a hopelessly desperate attempt to suppress what his soul acknowledges, that” I “am a great apologist exposing Muhammad for the false prophet that he truly was.” “Consider that some of the most raging homophobes turned out to be gay themselves.” Or maybe Kcrap is just brain damaged from all the crap he recites five times a day?

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  91. ok Sam time to put you back on your leash. No more barking from you..

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  92. Thanks for your input Sam, in all that you wrote you –

    1. Still didn’t show us White’s email to you. God knows what would happen if we compare his recent email to you and his recent one to me. White embarrassed and shamed you in front of our mutual friend and you bit your tongue. He sent me a very pleasant one, it was nice.

    2. You still didn’t tell us what Gilchrist said and did to cancel South Africa for you. If you’re such on good terms, then share with us how that trip went….wait it didn’t! Wonder why! Are you on good terms with him like the ‘good terms’ you’re on with White?

    3. You showed up on a Skype chat, desperate to spend time with Br. Yusuf. Desperate! So desperate you had to beg Jonathan to let you join the chat after he agreed not to let you in! You’re at the point where everyone has blacklisted you and you’re left to begging people to let you join private Skype chats. How desperate are you?

    4. Last time I came to your room, you didn’t let me speak. I can understand why. So no, I won’t be joining you, I have actual Christian apologists to meet and work with projects on. None who care for you, most of whom have seen White’s e-mail. No one likes you Sam, not even M.G. Ask M.G to show you her messages to S.G. You think I’m the only one that despises you? Boy do you have surprises coming. Might want to check her theology given that she now supports homosexuality.

    5. I pray for your daughters daily Sam, because of your sick behaviour. Especially since Taylor Reese has become a place of refuge for someone who absolutely reviles you. We both know who that is.

    Good riddance.

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  93. Paul, Please keep him banned guy can’t help himself. You are not an apologist, shamoun you are a clown. We have zilch respect for you. Bye Bye.

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  94. Denial is no good response in academics brother Temple. However intelligent you try to sound, you seem to have swerved (dodged) the point I have been trying to drive home.
    Why not have a go at the reasons I mentioned and tell me why Dr Philip Schaff is wrong? A mere repetition (‘Ignatius’ seven letters are genuine’) without proofs will surely not move ‘morons’ like myself. Hardly any wonder I left christianity.
    By the way, I find it odd that you buttressed my comment on the views on how Ignatius’ views are catholic without even realising it. I said he recounts a church hierarchy absent today in all except catholic churches. That the new testament talks of a hierarchy isn’t really affecting my argument. Ignatius’ structure was too different.

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  95. Paul is it possible to block peoples IP addresses rather than accounts? Otherwise I fear Sam will simply keep coming back under new names.

    and now back to the subject of the post:

    I have to say after having read some of Wrights more popular level books such as Simply Christian and more recently Simply Good News, Wright is a joy to read in part due to the care he brings to many of the key aspects of traditional Christianity such as his treatment of Jesus’ deity. What I find most appealing is his view that the best way to understand what Jesus said, did, and perhaps most importantly believed such be placed firmly within the context of the time and culture in which he lived.

    This is in stark contrast to no small number of Christians who presume Jesus to be someone who simply swayed through life like a ghost, not really experiencing much of anything in the way a human being would. Wright and others deal a severe body blow to this way of thinking, and I feel is one step closer to engaging with contemporary studies of Jesus as a historical figure. Wright is important in this process (he was for me) and for one good reason he is neither entirely conservative nor liberal in his theology and scholarship, this means a much wider appeal and also attractive to those Christians who wish to be more scholarly (or at least appear so) without having too many of their core beliefs seriously challenged. With that mind one of the most positive aspects of his popular works for me was to introduce the general reliability and respect for other scholars who are sadly largely blacklisted by conservatives as “liberal” and therefore unreliable such as Borg, Crossan, Brown, Dunn etc….

    Via having them widely represented in his bibliography and recommended reading lists for books such as Simply Jesus and if I recall How God Became King. With that being said I agree that with all the nuance Wright often brings to these core issues (and they are important not just for Christians) on whether or not Jesus considered himself to be God incarnate, or just plain divine. Such questions if on the mind of Jesus and were to be central to his life never mind message would not have been far from his teachings and miracles, in other words he wouldn’t have kept it hidden in such a way where people such as Wright were necessary to decipher them over two millenia later still not being able to present a clear answer. Take the Qur’an for example which constantly emphasises monotheism and Gods sovereignty over and above whatever is going on in the world (Surah Al-Baqarah and the section on the hypocrites at the beginning of the chapter is a constant reminder of this, both mocking the small mindedness and arrogance of those who think they are able to get away with such deception). James Dunn made this same argument with regards to the sayings of Jesus in the Gospel of John that announce his deity. Why only there? Why was this not recorded elsewhere? Why is this not in Q?, M?,or the independent traditions of L, or Mark? Why is it when everytime Jesus is approached and asked what must a man do to be saved would he not as God say ‘believe in me’ as he does in the Shema or throughout the entire Tanakh but instead says to follow the Torah? This has to be more than humility to veil that kind of detail from others. These kinds of things are not a game, they are a matter of how we live, how we love, how we think, how we don’t think, and how we worship. Which is not only prayer but also in service to others to administer justice, or even in how to properly define the term.

    I am not dictating what Jesus should or should not say, who am i to judge? He is a far better man than me. Just asking why this if so central in fact the very reason for Jesus’ existence and something that had been planned since the very beginning as the Gospel of John said? Allah-u-allam.

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  96. Really odd comments by Tom Wright. I understand the author’s annoyance at the lack of a straight forward answer. What’s he got to hide? Odd.

    James Dunn’s book on whether the early Christians worshipped Jesus is quite nuanced and I personally don’t think it helps the evangelical Christian cause.

    Tovia Singer is really good at breaking things down simply; he asks why there were no councils on stuff like the virgin birth but there were councils on stuff like the trinity and the ‘hypostatic union’. Things which are explicit in the NT never had debate around it…

    As for the commotion with the Christian, Sam, I just see it as a demonstration of the fundamentalist Christian belief of satan being the spiritual father of non-Trinitarian Christians as being a false belief. Think about it, here we have a rude Christian who is insulting, being malicious and literally acting a fool on a blog forum yet when he does this it’s generally Muslims and other non-Trinitarian folk who are showing the better standard of behaviour.

    So to say the devil is the spiritual father of the people who are behaving in a better manner than the man who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit is demonstrably false. Demonstrated by the Christian who disrupted this blog post.

    Satan uses fools and lies to misguide people. The fool on this thread is quite discernable and the falsehoods of Jesus being God and the trinity idea are certainly being exposed on this blog.

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  97. Just a note here, since I know Sam will read this.

    Sam, I want you to hate me. I want you to despise me. I want you to behave the way you behave. I like when you curse and mock and insult me. If you didn’t hate me, then it would mean you liked me. There is nothing worse in the world than having you like someone. If you were on good terms with me, it would mean that something was so flawed with me that I deserved to be removed from general society. It’s interesting that you believe you need to insult us because we disagree with Christianity. It’s interesting because instead of trying to deal amicably and show us the role of the Holy Spirit in your life, you choose to show us an ungodly, despotic behaviour.

    Like I have said and as I will say again – I use your words to help apostate Christians. I show people how you behave and tell them that this is who x and y thinks is a great defender of Christianity, they think this is how the Spirit works in you. You are the greatest gift to Islam. So please, keep on hating me. Keep insulting me. I do not mind. You can mention my father, my mother, me, in any way you want. It just makes my preaching easier. So thank you. Keep up the good work Sammy.

    Regards,

    PS: Jonny Boy’s trip to SA is a gift from me to you and when I send you gifts, I also send surprises. He still won’t however, be getting any debates from anyone in the UK anytime soon, unless I decide to use him in some other way. For now we’ll get him to popularise the SA debaters and have him put the debates on Answering Muslims – free publicity and promotion. It’s always nice when the AM team decides to help us out.

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  98. I said he recounts a church hierarchy absent today in all except catholic churches.

    Actually, Anglican and Methodist churches also have bishops over several churches and areas larger than pastors/elders in individual churches. But Roman Catholicism is even more hierarchical; true.

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  99. Ken Temple : “Jesus said:
    I am the true vine – John 15:1

    I am the door – John 10:9

    I am the light of the world – John 8:12″

    obvious symbols”

    “I and the Father are one”, “Who has seen me has seen the Father”, “The word became flesh”, “My Lord and my God” ….

    obvious symbols

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  100. I wonder what Shaman’s restaurant is called – McFallacy, speciality red herring?

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  101. I think it might be called “Answering Slim Physique”

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