Evangelical use of Prof. Larry Hurtado to prove Jesus is God backfires badly

Asad posted a comment on my Concluding Comments from Bart Ehrman and Michael Bird post. It is so insightful and significant I thought it worthwhile to make a separate post of it here.

Asad wrote:

Notice what Hurtado said:

“The historical Jesus did not claim he was divine and did not demand worship. The reason why the early Christians treated him as divine … was because they believed that God had exalted him to heavenly glory…” see 42:00 onwards.

I bring this to attention because evangelical Christian apologists, on the internet, often appeal to Hurtado when using critical scholarship to “show” that Jesus claimed to be divine or God in his historical ministry.

Hurtado’s argument, however, is that Jesus did not claim to be God/divine and was not worshipped as such in his historical ministry. Jesus was elevated in status, or exalted, by his followers upon their experience of the resurrection. In other words, Jesus’ followers came to view Jesus differently after learning about his resurrection. This “revelation,” as Hurtado puts it, caused them to elevate Jesus.

The strong scholarly consensus remains: Jesus in his historical ministry did not claim to be divine, God, the Second Person of the Trinity, God incarnate, or “more than a man.” These are later developments. The main dispute among scholars is on the question of *when* Jesus began to be worshipped as a divine being.

Hurtado argues that this “mutation” began almost immediately after the resurrection. But that the historical Jesus did not demand his worship and did not claim to be god is not really a disputed point. One can only, at most, point to Gathercole and Bird who wish to attribute pre-existence – or something of the sort – to the historical Jesus and perhaps a handful of hyper-conservative scholars.

Consider Hurtado’s explanation from one of his popular books How on earth Did Jesus Become a God? Historical Questions about Earliest Devotion to Jesus,

“Initially, Jesus was probably a follower of the fiery contemporary prophet of national repentance known as John “the Baptizer,” but after John’s arrest and execution … Jesus emerged more saliently as a prophet-like figure in his own right. He clearly and quickly became a controversial and polarizing figure for many, perhaps most, who had occasion to consider him seriously, and he remains so today.

By all indications, during his own historic lifetime Jesus became known in at least parts of Roman Judea through proclaiming the imminent arrival of God’s “kingdom.” … In addition to proclaiming and teaching about God’s kingdom, Jesus also seems to have engaged in other activities that had the effect of drawing further attention to him but were primarily intended to demonstrate something of the power and purposes of the divine kingdom that he announced. These other actions included calling a band of followers, pursuing an itinerant teaching activity, and taking controversial positions on some matters of religious practice. Both followers and opponents perceived Jesus as being able to perform miraculous healings and other deeds of supernatural power.″ pp. 2-3.

From p. 5: “In short, from a surprisingly early point after his death, Jesus’ followers were according to him at a level of devotion that far exceeded their own prior and impressive commitment to him during his lifetime.”

From p. 149: “But the far more intense devotion to Jesus that characterized early Christian circles so amazingly early was not simply the continuation of the pattern of homage given to the historical Jesus, and it cannot be accounted for adequately by referencing to Jesus’ ministry.

The “binitarian” pattern of devotion that we see already taken for granted in Paul’s letters and affirmed throughout the New Testament initially amounted to a major and apparently novel “mutation” in, or variant form of, Jewish monotheistic practice. Among first-century Christian circle … such a conviction represented a further, major development beyond the impact of the earthly ministry of Jesus. Just as it is inaccurate to restrict the belief that the risen Jesus shares in divine glory to circles of a supposedly distinctive “Christ cult” … so it would be simplistic to see this exalted a view of Jesus as having arisen in the time of his earthly ministry …

Each in his own way, the Evangelists distinguish between the level of recognition of Jesus’ status that characterised the time of his ministry and that which came to be expressed in the post-easter period.”

Larry W. Hurtado, How on earth Did Jesus Become a God? Historical Questions about Earliest Devotion to Jesus, 2005, Cambridge, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Explanations concerning historiography and faith made by all panelists, particularly Professor Dale Martin, are also important. Based on my understanding, their view is that (and, mind you, I do not agree with their explanation): it is not necessary for Jesus to have claimed to be God. Even if Jesus did not present himself as God, we can still view him as God because revelation guided the followers of Jesus to this new understanding of him after the resurrection. Historical evidence is not needed to verify faith.

According to Martin, revelation informed the early Christians that Jesus was raised from the dead. None of the following matters: that the empty tomb story is probably inauthentic; that there are discrepancies in the gospel resurrection narratives; that they do not stand strong to historical enquiry etc. Revelation just tells us that Jesus was resurrected, not who saw him, or what the resurrected Jesus was like, nor whether the empty tomb story is real…all of these do not matter. You only believe in the resurrection; the details are unimportant.

I do not share this opinion and find that our (Islamic) stance is more appropriate. Revelation tells us that Jesus was God’s prophet, messiah, miracle worker, that he did not claim to be divine in any sense. Historical critical enquiries support these positions. We accept on faith, based on Revelation, that Jesus did miracles. It is not required to have historical data for miracles. Revelation tells us that God saved Jesus from a humiliating end. Historical data cannot confirm or deny this and is not required to verify faith here through historiography. Miracles, as is widely accepted, are beyond the realm of historical enquiry (save prophecies, I think). We certainly accept certain things on faith, but are faithful to Jesus’ presentation of himself in his historical ministry.

Virtually all evangelical apologists proceed with deceit. They extensively cherry pick and misuse critical scholarship conveying the utterly misleading impression as if it verifies their beliefs about Jesus. The fact, however, is that critical scholarship has put an immense dent in almost all evangelical beliefs about Jesus – particularly his divinity. They will, at most, appeal to Gathercole and Bird make use of a few scholars from an earlier generation, appeal to some hyper-conservative evangelical scholars, yet bypass and utterly ignore the overwhelming bulk of scholarship. They will cherry pick Hurtado. I am convinced that Muslims, in sharp contrast, are not in this difficulty in terms of their belief about Jesus. We can accept much of mainstream critical scholarship without any “problems.” Mainstream historical Jesus studies, likewise, causes no “problems” for us whatsoever.

Unfortunately, many Muslims are grossly ignorant about New Testament scholarship and tend not to read books.



Categories: Biblical scholarship, Christianity, God, Islam

39 replies

  1. “I bring this to attention because evangelical Christian apologists, on the internet, often appeal to Hurtado when using critical scholarship to “show” that Jesus claimed to be divine or God in his historical ministry.”

    I must confess that I’ve never seen people use Hurtado for that purpose, but of course there may be some.

    I’ve used Hurtado in the past (even on this blog) to demonstrate that scholarship recognises that 1st century judaism was not unitarian. I remember being maligned, dismissed for saying such, since Muslims like to assume that Judaism is unitarian. But prior to rabbinic judaism in the later centuries, this was simply not true.

    And yet it seems that PW’s inconsistency has been exposed by approval of Hurtado’s comments here (cause he thinks it discredits Christ worship), even though he discusses the binitarian pattern of early Jewish devotion of Jesus.

    So, thankyou Paul for finally admitting that early Jewish people were not unitarians.

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  2. I did not have time to see much of the talks but regarding what the followers of Jesus thought after he was gone, what about this that Christian apologetics seem to want to suppress….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKACgzCbuF0

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  3. I just listened to the concluding statement of Larry Hurtado.

    Very disappointing and sickening what he is saying…he is admitting that Jesus never claimed to be God or Divine but you might be able to be clever and find some way to justify going against the teachings of Jesus by using some philosophical or theological techniques.

    If I can talk to Professor Hurtado, I would say….

    No, Professor Hurtado…that would be blasphemous and evil.

    First of all it is betraying the teachings of Jesus.

    but more importantly God is infinitely above all of us….it is illogical to think that God’s creature can become in the category of God as Divine….impossible logically speaking…unless your conception of God is not as the One who brings existence out of His sheer will but more like a Zeus type god….more like superman.

    In other words, it is a categorical error Professor Hurtado to think that God would want us to treat any of His creatures like Himself….God is not illogical and immoral to do something like that.

    HAving said that though, I respect your knowledge although I did not read get a chance to read your books.
    ——————————————–
    ANyhow, I don’t want to distract from Asad’s excellent point that yes, it is wrong that some Christian apologists
    cherrypick Professor Hurtado’s statements.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Mark, Hurtado does not deny that 1st century Judaism was “not unitarian.” You’ve seriously misunderstood him here. In Judaism, whatever the sect and whatever the time period, God has been God, undivided. There are no “persons” in the “Godhead.”

    Hurtado talks about *mutation* in the concept of Jewish monotheism among the Christians who came to exalt Jesus.

    Hurtado does not “discredit” Christian worship and exaltation of Jesus. PW has not implied this neither has the author above. It is simply being stated that according to Hurtado, Jesus in his historical ministry did not claim to be divine and did not demand worship.

    Do you get it now?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Luis Fernando de Oliveira Basso's avatar

      Could you provide where in the Bible Jesus never sai: Don’t worship me? There is one passage of the Scripture, where Jesus healed the blind man. In the temple, this man came and worship Jesus. Why Jesus didn’t rebuke him saying: Don’t worship me? Rather, he didn’t say.

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  5. Mark, do you agree with Hurtado that:

    “The historical Jesus did not claim he was divine and did not demand worship. The reason why the early Christians treated him as divine … was because they believed that God had exalted him to heavenly glory…””

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Oh Dear!

    Do they listen to themselves when they speak?

    Those doing the hearing, do they understand what is being said?

    Call it Paradox, Mystery or Conundrum, there is no way you can solve the Intertwining of the Human & the Divine? …. There is no way around it apart from committing Blasphemy or Heresy in one form or another!

    In trying to solve the problem, they trip over their own arguments and sometimes pull the rug/carpet, right under their feet despite trying to be careful in their choice of words!

    What Irony!!

    I am sure some Christian will now attempt to re-explain this and try to say how we are still wrong!

    Muslims should Rejoice that we don’t have such pitfalls in our understanding of Who Exactly Jesus Is & Who Exactly God Is? …. The Two Entities are Separate & Will Remain Separate!

    Oh Christians, do come back to the Original Way, Let Us Safeguard our Faith from Corruption & Walk Together as Brothers of the Abrahamic Tradition!

    Let us Worship God, just how Jesus Worshipped and How he wants you to Worship, that is God Alone!!

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Arif, good explanation. The problem with Mark is that he is full of himself and frequently misreads what others say or write. You’ll get used to it after a while.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Paul, I don’t really know nor do I particularly care.

    Are you finally going to admit/confirm that first century Judaism was not Unitarian and/or practiced tawheed?

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  9. Arif,

    I am responding to the LATTER part of Hurtado’s concluding statements…

    My main point is that it is blasphemous and evil to go against Jesus’s teachings (that he was not God) by justifying it with philosophical and theological rationalizations (to try to say that he was God).

    Thanks for trying to clear up what you misperceived as a misunderstanding on my part but you have misunderstood my point in multiple ways.

    I am not saying that Hurtado discredits Christian worship….please re-read carefully what I wrote.

    Although the most important point is that there is no philosophical and theological way to believe in God as being made up of multiple persons (that is simply illogical), what I was trying to highlight was that it also of bad faith to go against the Prophet’s teachings (that he was not God) by trying to say that he was God based on some revelatory so called experience that someone had (i.e. based on Paul of Tarsus’s mystical vision or so on).

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  10. Mark, your lack of interest in what your own top Christian scholars are saying about the historical Jesus is shockingly typical: there is no foundation for your beliefs and you just could not care less.

    I pity you.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Reblogged this on Yahya Snow's Blog and commented:
    Good job Asad and Paul. Also did a video containing the Hurtado comments alongside James White’s evangelical claims to help get the message across to our evangelical friends https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RK_9wrut3A

    Liked by 1 person

  12. Nice video Yahya. I just saw it.

    Liked by 2 people

  13. If only the Muslims (giving dawah) considered reading books by Hurtado, Dunn, Vermas,Sanders and Erhman, just to name a few, they would immensely benefit from the valuable information and argumentation derived from their research, for the purposes of engaging Christians during theological discussions.

    I personally came to the same realization as expressed by Br Asad after reading some of the literature, which essentially has increased my Iman, certainty and confidence to engage in christological discussions with Christians.

    Most Christians i engage are quite surprised to know a Muslim has actually read these books and are taken back during discussions not sure how to engage a Muslim with this level of knowledge on Christian scholarship ☺

    May Allah The Most Wise increase us in knowledge and sincerity to convey His message to those sincerely seeking the truth. Ameen.

    Keep up the great work Br Paul😉

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Brother Paul said:

    “Mark, your lack of interest in what your own top Christian scholars are saying about the historical Jesus is shockingly typical: there is no foundation for your beliefs and you just could not care less.

    I pity you.”

    Don’t pity Mark. The guy is a clown and clowns are supposed to be funny, not sad. We need to see the humor in talking to people like Mark.

    Notice how he completely dodges every question that is posed to him. He does this every time, because he knows he is way out of his league.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. “Mark, your lack of interest in what your own top Christian scholars”

    Who says they are my scholars? Geez, you Muslims like to assume alot.

    Since you keep dodging my question, I can only assume you do not wish the affirm that which you already confirmed accidentally, namely, that first century Judaism was not unitarian.

    “Notice how he completely dodges every question that is posed to him.”

    Yeah, except I gave an answer. Unlike Paul here. Maybe you would like to admit, that according to the experts, early Judaism was not unitarian? Care to admit that? Or would that make you question your religion?

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  16. Yes Mark they are your scholars – in the sense that they are eminent, committed Christian academics who are experts in early Christianity, they are your fellow believers – unless you have been lying and are not a Christian after all?

    As I said your lack of interest in what your own top Christian scholars are saying about the historical Jesus is shockingly typical: there is no foundation for your beliefs and you just could not care less.

    I pity you.

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  17. Mark, unlike you, I don’t comment on scholars I am not familiar with or whose views I don’t understand. You try to pretend you know what you are talking about, even though the facade you put up is easily exposed.

    Others have already shown that you did misread Hurtado. Why don’t you respond to them? Oh right, I know. Because you are a typical ignorant student of equally ignorant missionaries. For shame… 🙂

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  18. Paul, I’ve never claimed to be a Christian. You’ve assumed such and I’ve never corrected you. It’s interesting to see the hate perpetuated toward. Christians on this blog. In fact, I even said once that the only thing worse than the church is the mosque, and boy is that true. Just look at Faiz. He is still upset that his prophet called him a “raisin head.”

    Faiz, how did I misread hurtado. His scholarship has proven that first century Judaism was very diverse in its monotheism. It was not Unitarian as others on this blog claim ad nauseous.

    Now Paul has been exposed for his hypocrisy with this post. And unsurprisingly he won’t follow where the evidence lead due to his fundamentalism. You’re probably just the same.

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  19. Mark, you just proved that you did misunderstand Hurtado. I quote:

    “His scholarship has proven that first century Judaism was very diverse in its monotheism.”

    So which is it? Was 1st century Judaism “binitarian” or “very diverse in its monotheism”?

    Moreover, just because first century Judaism was “diverse” in its monotheism, doesn’t mean that it was always like that (for example, during the time of Moses).

    Also, Hurtado maintains on his blog that first century Jews and also Christians were not true “monotheists” as they are defined in a dictionary. He states:

    “It’s hard to find ancient Jews (or Christians) who denied the existence of all other divine beings. Instead, for them the issue was the validity of worshipping any deity other than the one deity of the biblical tradition.

    But it is clear that Roman-era Jewish religion was noted for its exclusivity of worship, and the view often expressed that the worship of any other deity by Jews or other people was idolatry. So, I propose that we use the label “ancient Jewish monotheism” to describe this stance. NB: This isn’t dictionary “monotheism,” but “ancient Jewish monotheism,” which focused, not on the existence of other beings, but instead on the exclusive validity of the biblical deity as rightful recipient of worship” (https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2014/01/22/forthcoming-article-ancient-jewish-monotheism/).

    He also states that Hellenistic- and Roman-era Judaism’s “exclusivity” regarding the worship of one deity hardened in the Hellenistic and Roman eras, with the forced cultural assimilation attempted by Antiochus IV serving as a major catalyst:

    “It appears that this firm exclusivity hardened and became more characteristic in the late Hellenistic and Roman periods. I propose that a major factor was the radical attempt by Antiochus IV (“Epiphanes”) to assimilate Jews religiously and culturally, which led initially to the Maccabean revolt. My proposal (not really uniquely mine) is that this crisis thereafter led to a hardened concern by Jews to protect their religious identity and particularity, worship (“cultus”) being the “red line” issue above all.”

    Oh and by the way, if you want to bring another discussion into this thread (you know, the one where you have been humiliated over and over again 😉 ), I can certainly help you in that endeavor. So, Canis markus, are you a child or a dog? 🙂

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  20. “So which is it? Was 1st century Judaism “binitarian” or “very diverse in its monotheism”?”

    Ah, both moron. Either way, they didn’t follow the White prophet’s tawheed. Point proven.

    Now, watch ‘Raisin Faiz’ chuck another tantrum.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. so Mark now that you have come clean and admitted you are not a Christian, what are you, an atheist?

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  22. @Omer thanks. However James White wasn’t too impressed with the video. A load of insults and noise from him. Nothing new there.

    It is obviously not a direct response from Hurtado to White – that’s obvious so White needs to stop getting in a huff about it not being a direct response – I simply put together two clips just to highlight how Historical Jesus scholars part company with the evangelical Trinitarian types like James White. White can jump up and down all he likes, insult and belittle me as much as he wants (real mature and real Christian) but this is a useful video for the thinking Christian and thinking anybody smile emoticon We are simply reaching out into the crowds of Trinitarians who are just believing in the trinity idea because they follow a particular Trinitarian apologist or feel railroaded into believing in the trinity idea. Perhaps a few will grab our hands and move away from that flawed theology and towards Abrahamic monotheism – Islamic monotheism – the theology that God loves. The true theology.

    Sorry just cipied and pasted a short response to his mean FB comments.

    Omer, I saw your link on the Empty Tomb. I had a look, looks interesting. I hope to read it later on in the week. Thanks for sharing.

    @Mark what are your religious views? Thanks.

    Liked by 2 people

  23. Canis markus wrote…I mean barked…:

    “Ah, both moron. Either way, they didn’t follow the White prophet’s tawheed. Point proven.

    Now, watch ‘Raisin Faiz’ chuck another tantrum.”

    Ah no, moron. Saying that 1st century Judaism was “binatarian” is a lot different from saying it was “diverse”. This is what you wrote in one of your idiotic posts:

    “I’ve used Hurtado in the past (even on this blog) to demonstrate that scholarship recognises that 1st century judaism was not unitarian.”

    That is a pretty clear statement about 1st century Judaism. You were implying that they were all “not unitarian”. But then you said that they were “diverse”. That’s two different things. If 1st century Judaism was “diverse”, then among the “diverse” sets of beliefs could have been a “unitarian” sect as well. See the difference, C. markus?

    Also, as Arif already pointed out and which you have ignored (surprise, surprise), Hurtado was not denying that 1st century Jews were not unitarian. When he mentioned “binitarianism”, he was referring to the Christian “pattern of devotion”:

    “The “binitarian” pattern of devotion that we see already taken for granted in Paul’s letters and affirmed throughout the New Testament initially amounted to a major and apparently novel “mutation” in, or variant form of, Jewish monotheistic practice.”

    In addition, Hurtado clarifies his views on “binitarianism” on his blog, and he always refers to it in the context of Christianity, NOT Judaism. Perhaps, you would have known had you bothered to do some actual research. On his blog, Hurtado states:

    “because my use of the term “binitarian” to describe earliest Christian devotion has drawn so much misunderstanding, I’ve dropped it in favor of referring to the shape of earliest Christian devotion as a “structured dyad”: God (“the Father”) and Jesus, with Jesus defined and reverenced typically with reference to God (i.e., not as a second deity, but as the unique expression and agent of the one deity). So, we could refer to earliest Christian devotion as “dyadic” in shape. Hopefully, this term will occasion less misunderstanding, and fewer accusations of trying to import later conceptions into the earliest expressions of Jesus-devotion” (https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2011/05/04/questions-about-monotheism/).

    In another article, he emphatically states (again, with regard to Christianity, NOT Judaism):

    “I don’t recall ever referring to “binitarianism”, but instead to a “binitarian devotional pattern” (and similar phrasing)” (https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/binitarian-dyadic-triadic-early-christian-god-talk-and-devotion/).

    So, there you go. Once again, you have been exposed as a charlatan who masquerades as a sincere researcher. When will you learn, C. markus? I guess the saying is true:

    “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks.”

    LOL! There are so many dog jokes and they all work with you! 😉

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  24. Hurtado also states:

    “…I proposed that the chronological data require us to see the eruption of a remarkable Jesus-devotion originating as a religious innovation within Roman-era Jewish tradition, producing a novel “mutation” in ancient Jewish monotheism in which two distinguishable figures (God and Jesus) are programmatically treated as unique recipients of devotion” (https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2011/05/04/questions-about-monotheism/).

    And on the matter of Second Temple Jewish “monotheism”, he writes:

    “On this premise, I’ve then also argued that we can use the expression “ancient Jewish monotheism” to designate the well-known exclusivist stance characteristic of second-temple Jewish tradition: the insistence that only the one biblical deity is worthy of worship, and that worship of any other being (including heavenly/divine beings) constitutes idolatry. This isn’t “monotheism” (as Englightenment thinkers imagined it), it’s “ancient Jewish monotheism”.”

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  25. Paul,

    Tell you what, you answer my question and I’ll tell you what I am. I’ve asked several times now. What are you afraid to admit? Will it damage the deen? Will you loose financial support?

    Will you admit that the Jews of the first century did not adhere to tawheed?

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  26. Listen Raisin Faiz.

    Early Christianity was exclusively Jewish. It was born from Judaism. Stop the whining, cuddle up next your mommy and have get on with life.

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  27. “There are so many dog jokes and they all work with you! ”

    I don’t mind your insults- they are the fruit of your prophet. I’m just glad I’m alive unlike all the Christians, Jews and dogs that Muhammad slaughtered unmercilessly.

    But, hey, he’s up in jannah enjoying his white virgins, right? No raisin faces up there…

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  28. Raisin Faiz.

    Follow the again.

    1. Jesus’ disciples were of jewish descent and religion.
    2. Hartado’s scharship proves that the disciples were not unitarians.

    Therefore, the early Jews were not unitarians. THey did not follow tawheed.

    I know this is a problem for you Muslims. You like to pretend that you’re all into scholarship, but when the crunch comes you abandon it for your fundamentalism.

    SO which is it? WIll you admit that Jesus’ disciples were not Muslims and did not follow tawhee (and that therefore the koran is false) or will you abandon any reason and scholarship for the deen?

    Your in a bit of a pickle, aren’t you? Oh, wait, a pickle and a raisin. I’,m seeing a pattern emerge here…

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  29. Listen C. markus. You can bark all you want and change topics all you want. It will not save you the humiliation. As you put it:

    “Stop the whining, cuddle up next your mommy and have [sic] get on with [your] life.”

    In your case, of course, it’s a dog’s life! 😉

    “Early Christianity was exclusively Jewish. It was born from Judaism. Stop the whining, cuddle up next your mommy and have get on with life.”

    WRONG! Early Christianity was not “exclusively Jewish”. Let me repeat what Hurtado states (I know you can’t read; neither can other dogs):

    “…I proposed that the chronological data require us to see the eruption of a remarkable Jesus-devotion originating as a religious innovation within Roman-era Jewish tradition, producing a novel “mutation” in ancient Jewish monotheism in which two distinguishable figures (God and Jesus) are programmatically treated as unique recipients of devotion”.

    Did you get that? Hurtado states that Christianity was a “religious innovation” within the Jewish tradition during the Roman-era. In other words, my canine friend, it was not the same as the Jewish tradition. Elsewhere, Hurtado calls it a “mutation”.

    Then you resorted to your specious reasoning again, as is typical of Satan’s dogs:

    “1. Jesus’ disciples were of jewish descent and religion.
    2. Hartado’s scharship proves that the disciples were not unitarians.”

    And therefore, first century Judaism was not “unitarian”? What the deuce?! This is such childish logic, but I guess it can’t be helped.

    Here is what Hurtado has stated with regard to the early Christians (which would include the disciples):

    “…earliest Christian prayer reflects distinctive features, giving to early Christians a distinctive religious identity. The programmatic and singular place of Jesus was without parallel or precedent in the Jewish matrix in which earliest Jesus-followers emerged. So in that Roman religious environment, early Christian prayer-practice reflected sense of having a particular and distinguishing identity” (https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/jesus-in-early-christian-prayer/).

    Elsewhere, he writes:

    “…we have to reckon with two distinguishable convictions: Jesus as Messiah and Jesus as rightful recipient of cultic devotion. Both erupted early, perhaps simultaneously” (https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/messiah-and-worship/).

    In other words, there were different brands of “Christianity”, which may have emerged simultaneously. One regarded Jesus as the Messiah but without any “cultic devotion” while the other was more concerned with this “cultic devotion”. This disproves your assertion that Jesus’ disciples were “not unitarian”. Those that believed Jesus was the Messiah did not regard him as an object of worship.

    Now, C. markus, take your own advice and cuddle up with your mommy! These last few days have been tough on you.

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  30. By the way, Hurtado quotes the work of Paul Trebilco on the origins of “Christianity”. He states of Trebilco:

    “Among his conclusions, he contends that “εκκλησια” originated among “Jewish Christian Hellenists” (“most likely in Jerusalem,” p. 301), but he further argues that this does not mean that they no longer considered themselves also part of the larger Jewish community. He judges the term “Christian” to have originated among outsiders/observers of early Jesus-believers, thereafter appropriated by believers, especially in the later period of persecutions” (https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/trebilco-on-early-christian-self-designations/).

    As you can see, among the early Christians were “Jewish Christian Hellenists”. In other words, they were not “exclusively Jewish” but were also influenced by Hellenism. In fact, they wanted to distinguish themselves from as Hurtado writes:

    “Trebilco again: “…these designations also involve the claim of a distinctive identity . . .” (p. 308), “have clear boundary-marking roles,” and “distinguish this new group from other Jews and from Gentiles” (309).”

    You’re wrong again, C. markus! Now get back to your barking boy!

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  31. “but he further argues that this does not mean that they no longer considered themselves also part of the larger Jewish community.”

    Precisely. I don’t disagree. No tawheed. Sad day for you I guess since the Koran is in error

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  32. You ignored everything else which refutes you. How typical of C. markus. LOL!

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Mark is a troll, but he provides the Muslims with some amusement.

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  34. Yes, he certainly amuses me!

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