The Golden Calf. Why not a lion?

Enjoy!!

Hasidic

Robots and angels don’t err, they can live for a thousand years without making a single mistake. Human beings, however, sin and fail and make lots and lots of stupid decisions; individually and communally. The distinction between the individual people’s mistakes and those of a nation is quite obvious, just think about the Holocaust.

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Categories: Islam

103 replies

  1. Mozer,
    “…after all, idolatry was natural to them. Idolatry was the heart of Egyptian culture and pretty much the culture of the entire world; it would take centuries for Israel to get it out of their system.”

    Unfortunately, Saul’s Greco-Roman man God cult never did quite get Hellenistic (and Egyptian?) idolatry out of their collective system. Until this day, most modern Trinitarian Christians are still a slave to their own desires….”laughing, partying and dancing” unto their own eternal doom while falsely believing that they are “Saved.”

    Good article!

    Liked by 1 person

    • As Trump would say: SAD!

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    • You guys just can’t take a single breath without attacking Christ and the church. That is what is truly sad.

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    • Jesus is a great a prophet. When he will get back , he will do the same thing that Moses did with Israelites. Jesus will break the cross.
      However, “For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets. Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.:
      That prophet has come. Muhammed ﷺ is the prophet, and you need to obey him.

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    • Why would I obey a 7th century man? Perhaps you should obey God like Christians do? #shirkalert

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    • Why would you not?
      Man, Jesus has not been sent for you in the first place.
      Second, why would jews accpet Jesus if he came after Moses by more than 1000 years?
      By God of Jesus, you obey Satan not God whom Jesus worships and fears.

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    • Paulus,
      “You guys just can’t take a single breath without attacking Christ and the church. That is what is truly sad.”

      Coming from a loser who can’t make a living except by profiteering from bigoted misportrayals, slandering. attacking, and fomenting hate and fear of other peoples religions

      THAT is sad.

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    • This coming from a muslim. You need to check out which countries are the most into porn. Hint its not the nominal christian west.

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    • And you muslims can’t even get your stories straight. Here is you saying Paul invented Christianity. On another thread we have Yahya saying Paul had never heard of the trinity. Thats the problem when you start telling lies, you have to have a very good memory.

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    • Achillies53,
      Your remark about porn is a red-herring.

      You are confusing Christianity with Trinity. We understand Christianity developed through an evolutionary process over 300-400 years or more, but it still led into idolatry. With or without Paul.

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    • “Coming from a loser who can’t make a living except by profiteering from bigoted misportrayals”

      …except I earn nothing from anything related to Islam. What is it that the Koran says about conjecture?

      “And most of them follow nothing but conjecture. Certainly, conjecture can be of no avail against the truth.”

      But you are not really interested in being a godly Muslim, are you? You prefer to just attack Christ and the church even when the OP has nothing to do with it.

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    • Wrong Ibn Issam. All the New Testament canon was complete by the end of the 1st century. So this 300-400 years stuff is nonsense.

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    • Achilles53,
      I wasn’t referring to the NT Cannon, as the evolutionary development as Chistianity was not dependent on that alone.
      Council of Nicea A.D 325
      Council of Chalcedon A.D. 451

      Liked by 1 person

    • Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?

      You really need to get out. Here is a hint. If you want to learn about christianity don’t take Shabir Ally as an authority.

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    • Achillies53
      I don’t need the honorable and beloved Shabir Aly to prove my point.

      The evolutionary development of Christianity has been well documented by many well-known Biblical Scholars in the field of NT Historical Criticism. That historical development also includes the ecumenical councils, how anyone could deny this is hard to believe. You can turn a blind eye if you wish, but it doesn’t change the clear and blaring facts.

      The only thing ridiculous here is your lack of knowledge on your own religion. I would strongly advise you to read a book,

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    • Ibn Issam

      Islam is the idolizing of mohammed – you don’t follow the quran, but the human being mohammed. You are taught that everything this savage nomad did was just amazing, from drinking camel’s piss and cutting of people’s hands and feet, to grooming a 9 year old and lusting after his stepson’s young wife.

      And you kiss a black stone – like the pagan idolators of ancient arabia.

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    • Kev,
      Who are you to speak of Idols?

      You idolize Paul a false Prophet, and self-admitted liar who mislead untold numbers of Christians throughout the centuries. You have made an idol out of the Jesus of Myth and Legend, which I am sure the true historic Jesus (as) would have rejected and rebuked you for worshipping. You are taught false and misleading stories about the mythological Jesus in your church, kissing a dead body on a cross, while other Christians kneel and pray to saints and bow to idols of Mary. You deal in double standards, by attacking Islam while turning a blind eye to the questionable acts related in the Bible (Child Marriage, Genocide, violence, racism, slavery, etc.). You make a low and despicable hobby out of shamefully insulting other people’s prophets, while we respect all true Prophets of God.

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    • Ibn

      Tu quoque response – and completely false to boot.

      It is noted that you cannot refute my points – that is why you have tried to change the subject with your red herring response. I’ll take that as an admission that islam is less about monotheism and more about revering and imitating a human being.

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    • Kev,
      All of your accusations have been refuted by myself and others repeatedly on this blog, but you keep rehashing them repeatedly. I simply don’t have the time, and I am not going to refute them AGAIN AND AGAIN just to please someone like you who doesn’t listen anyway.

      I note also that you have not refuted my points – which according to your own standards indicates an admission on your part that Christianity is false and innovated.

      Otherwise, I expect you to refute all of these disgusting teachings from the Bible in your next comment:

      -God commands rape victims to marry their rapists. Deut.22:28,29;
      – Holy war and Dashing babies against the rocks Psalm 137:9;
      -Widow must marry her brother in law Deut. 25:10
      -parents to stone to death their disobedient sons? (Deuteronomy 21:18:21)
      -Women not allowed to teach and must remain silent (1 Timothy 2:12)
      -Canabalism (Jeremiah 19:9)
      -Justification of Slavery, Slaves must endure Abuse from their masters (1 Peter 2:18)
      -Cursing and killing 42 children (2 Kings 2:23-24)
      -Genocide (1 Samuel 15:3 & Ex. 23:23)
      -Abuse and rape of Concubines (Judges 19:25-28)
      -Parents to put their own children to death (Leviticus 20:9)
      -Stoning adulterers leviticus 20:10
      -Child abuse (Proverbs 22:15)
      -Racism (Gal. 4
      -Child Marriage (David and Abishag 1 Kings 1:4; Rebecca/Isaac; Dinah/Shechem; Mary/Joseph)
      -Incest (lot and his daughters)

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    • So again, you are unable to refute the claim that muslims follow the teaching and example of a human being, and not the words of your “holy” revelation.

      Mohammed is an islamic idol that you revere and obey far more than you obey the supposed word of your god. No point in lashing out at me – I’m not responsible for your man worship.

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    • Kev,
      Repeating your own wishful thinking and will not make it true. Face it, you worship a mythological Greco roman man God. Therefore, in order to make Christianity seem less of an Aberration, you are forced to try and convince others that Muslims do the same, when anyone who picks up a Qur’an knows that is not even remotely true.

      I notice you did not refute any of my points. According to your own standards, I will take that as an admission from you that your Bible is not the “holy” word of God.

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    • Ibn

      The plurality of yahweh is firmly rooted in OT scripture and ancient jewish belief.

      You said it yourself – following mohammed is to follow god. Mohammed is your god. None of your most iconic worship practices are commanded by allah – mohammed commanded muslims to worship like the pagans. This is a cold hard fact.

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  2. Salam,
    “Indeed, this Qur’an relates to the Children of Israel most of that over which they disagree.”
    “And indeed, it is guidance and mercy for the believers” Quran translation (27:76-77)

    That incident was really a great stigma in the history Israelites who were supposed to be the chosen people, yet we find how they turned away from Allah although he had just rescued them by a great miracle in front of their eyes. What’s the lesson here? The lesson here is that we have to depend on Allah for the matter of guidance, and we have to ask him Hidayah (the guidance) all the time. It’s not a matter of the miracles you see. it’s the matter of your heart.

    ‘Aaron made a golden calf and proclaimed a festival for God on the morrow’
    This is a great slander! Aaron peace be upon him was a prophet. It’s impossible for him to built such a thing. I encourage to read Surah Taha (20:83-97)

    Quran translation (20:90)
    “And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], “O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order.”
    The one who built that calf was called (Samiri), and Aaron had already tried to prevent them, yet he couldn’t.
    Aaron did the right thing by waiting Moses peace be upon him until he return.

    What did Moses say to that guy called (Samiri)?
    “Moses] said, “Then go. And indeed, it is [decreed] for you in [this] life to say, ‘No contact.’ And indeed, you have an appointment [in the Hereafter] you will not fail to keep. And look at your ‘god’ to which you remained devoted. We will surely burn it and blow it into the sea with a blast.
    Your god is only Allah , except for whom there is no deity. He has encompassed all things in knowledge.”

    Scholars of Islam say why Moses didn’t use the gold for the benefit of Israelites. Moses could have used it instead of blowing it into the sea? The answer is because of the great matter of Tawheed. Moses didn’t want any trace of the Shirk (Idolatry). If Israelites had used the gold for something else, their hearts would have known that gold as the gold of that calf. Moses peace be upon him didn’t want that. The matter of idolatry must not be tolerated.

    ‘Why did they choose a calf? ‘
    This could be answered by look to the history. In Egypt, there’s “god” called Apis which is a bull. It’s possible that Israelites had this idea which is something remained in their minds from Egypt.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Interesting. [besides for the point where Aaron can’t err. the Quran differs from the Hebrew bible in this point]

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    • We belief that all prophets of Allah are protected from committing the great sins, especially the (Idolatry).
      That point against Aaron peace be upon him affirms our belief that your bible indeed got corrupted.

      Quran translation (37:114-120)
      ” And We did certainly confer favor upon Moses and Aaron.
      And We saved them(both) and their people from the great affliction,
      And We supported them so it was they who overcame.
      And We gave them the explicit Scripture,
      And We guided them(both) on the straight path
      And We left for them(both) [favorable mention] among later generations:
      Peace upon Moses and Aaron.”

      You can say the same thing with Solomon peace be upon him.

      Liked by 1 person

    • We believe*

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  3. mozer what do you think about genesis 8:4 mountains of ararat?

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  4. The Bible tells us how the Israelites constantly fell into Idolatry and how prophet after prophet was sent to them to turn them back to God.
    Contrast this with how Muhammad(p) managed to completely wipe out idolatry in Arabia in a single life span.
    This just blows the mind.

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    • your point? Moses bad job, Mohammad rocks? c’mon, at the time of Mohammad pagan idolatry was on the decline for hundreds of years… Arabia was just backwards and he very successfully opened their eyes..

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    • Ridiculous. He entrenched it. Allah is the pagan arab moon god. Circling the kaaba is a pagan practice.

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    • Allah is pagan. and believing in a god that has two partners and bowing to a crucifix and statue is purely monotheistic… I get your logic.

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    • ” _your point? Moses bad job, Mohammad rocks? c’mon_ …”
      They both rock …saying Moses(p) did a bad job would be blasphemous.

      ” … _at the time of Mohammad pagan idolatry was on the decline for hundreds of years_ … ”
      Actually the world was firmly in the grip of paganism at the time of Muhammad(p).
      There was the watered down version of Greek paganism of christian Trinitarianism on the one side and the full blown paganism of the Sasinid empire.

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    • Mozer. “A god that has two partners” Perhaps you could tell me what religion that is? “Bowing to crucifixes”??? Have you never heard of the reformation? It was quite a big deal 500 years ago.

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    • interesting. Luther discarded the trinity? Which planet am I living in?

      Liked by 1 person

    • “your point? Moses bad job, Mohammad rocks?”
      The comparison between the prophets of Allah in a sense to degrade one of them under the other one is forbidden in Islam. However, we know that prophets of Allah differ with greatness. You have the best, and you have the best of the best, yet all of them are the best of human beings.
      The message of the prophetﷺ is the fulfillment of the prophcy in Daniel2. Islam is the kingdom of God which has destroyed the lineage of paganism at that area which had been ruled by pagans for long time. It’s a remarkable point in the human history.

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    • ” It’s a remarkable point in the human history.” undeniable

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    • Christianity is pagan monotheism. It may be only one god they believe in but this god has a human form. This is the same like a pagan saying that he there are no other gods but the stone he worships. Numerically it is monotheism but that has nothing to do with the monotheism the Qur’an and the OT talk about.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Therefore Christians have not left any other options than:

      a) Pretend the OT does not exist
      b) Claim Islam is pagan

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    • Yemen, the Gulf region, Central and Northern Arabia have been largely Jewish (especially Yemen) and Christian before the Prophet. It was the Hijaz were paganism still flourished.

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    • The Old Testament exists. And Islam is false and pagan.

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    • @Muse Gele

      “There was the watered down version of Greek paganism of christian Trinitarianism on the one side and the full blown paganism of the Sasinid empire.”

      Whatever you may think about trinitarianism, the byzantine empire cracked down on any traces of paganism.

      The sassnid empire was zoroastrian. Although not entirely monotheistic, dualism is probably more correct, however it was not a full blown paganism like that in arabia. Zoroastrianism did not pray to different gods and had no imagies of deities.

      As for the rest of the population under sassnid control they were either nestorian christians or buddhists.

      Mozer was right, paganism was in general decline.

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    • “paganism was in general decline”
      How come? The nature of that time was labled with paganism. It’s been a lineage of paganism that nations kept inheriting from each other till Islam came and demolished it. Then you have to know that if you believed that an object has some sort of power which controls the universe with God, this is considered paganism form Islamic perspective whether you call that object/figure god or not.

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    • Poiter,
      This article from a Zoroastrian website explains that (although Zoroastrians may disagree) there were features of what Christians and Muslims would have considered Idolatry in the Sasanid Zoroastrian empire. The Article is entitled, “The worship of the sun, moon, stars, fire and all the good creation”

      Quote:

      “Homage paid to the material world was/is one of the most distinctive features of the Mazdá worshiping religion.

      Magis or Zoroastrian Priests of the Sassanid Empire demanded of the Zoroastrian apostates who had converted to Christianity, that they should revert to their old faith and prove that they had done so by fervently worshipping the elements specially; “heat of fire, good waters, the victorious sun and the glorious moon.”

      Such fervent worship was the ultimate proof of the fervent worship of and intense yearning for Mazdá Ahûrá. But for the Christians such passionate veneration toward nature was to be rejected as pure idolatry. Hence, they first described Zoroastrians as fire worshipers, moon worshipers and sun worshipers.” https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2015/02/04/the-worship-of-the-sun-moon-stars-fire-and-all-the-good-creation/

      It seems Abdullah was right.

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    • Rider,
      I regard to Christian Trinitarianism you wrote, “This is the same like a pagan saying that he there are no other gods but the stone he worships. Numerically it is monotheism but that has nothing to do with the monotheism the Qur’an and the OT talk about.”

      That’s a great comparison!!

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    • @Ibn Issam

      Thanks for that information. Didn’t know that about zoroastrianism in Sasanid empire.

      However i think a case can still be made that paganism was not as strong as it was several thousands of years back.

      Christianity was still a very large religion. Except for Iran, the entire middle east was christians though divided between different denominations. Also two very large arab tribes, Banu Ghassania and The Banu Lakhmid were christians. Arab tribes in the arabian peninsula were in contact with this larger Christian world through trade. You also had a jewish presence in Medina. Therefore monotheism was not that of a strange concept. Perhaps that is also why Muhammed was more successful in Medina than Mecca.

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    • Poiter,
      It really makes no difference whether pagan idolatry was on the decline for hundreds of years, as some like yourself might say, or whether the world was firmly in the grip of paganism at the time of Muhammad(p), via a hybrid version of Greek paganism fused with Christian Trinitarianism on the one side and the full blown idolatry of the Sassanid empire. Neither should we compare Prophets with an aim to discredit the great achievements of each of them who lived in different times, places, and circumstances. We Muslims Honor all the Prophets.

      What does matter is that Prophet Muhammad (P), redirected the Arabs toward monotheism, re-consecrated the Kaaba for worship of the one true Unitarian God of Abraham, and cleansed Arabia of Idolatry all within his own lifetime. Most Historians and scholars agree that this was no easy accomplishment, given the culture and society of the Arabs, and the rest of the world at that time. It was a highly remarkable feat, worthy of our respect and admiration. From there Islamic Monotheism spread far and wide destroying paganism and idolatry and establishing worship for God alone.

      One of the many reasons Islam spread so quickly was because many Christians in the middle east were actually Unitarian in belief, following the true teachings of Jesus, and only proclaimed Trinitarianism under duress and threat of the Byzantine Church authorities. Once they heard that Islam recognized Jesus as a Prophet, and taught Unitarianism they accepted Islam easily as they had believed this prior anyway.

      The additional fact Byzantine empire overburdened them with heavy taxes did not help either, when they learned that they only had to pay 2.5 % of wealth in Zakat, AND could openly profess a Unitarian belief – People Ran to Islam!!

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  5. Are you deliberately being obtuse? I don’t know anyone who bows to a crucifix.

    Perhaps you could tell us your thoughts on Psalm 2 “do homage to the son lest he become angry and you perish” or perhaps Psalm 110 “the Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”. Who are the two Lords?

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  6. It is an interesting reflection of the story. When contemplating who/what is God—it is tempting to put onto God, characteristics that we are familiar with….sometimes our own (perceived or real) negative characteristics are projected onto “God”. (or “other”). So the calf as the “Golden slave” is an interesting interpretation of how the people made “God” into their own image…?…the use of gold attempts to turn a negative into a value….?…

    In this context, the Christian use of the human as God is interesting too—particularly their reasoning that the killing of this God-Human is “Love”…In the Quran, the Angels ask, “will you put on this earth, one who will shed blood and make mischief”? The Christian use reason instead of gold to turn this negative into a value….

    We Muslims are fortunate as imagery of any kind is forbidden…so we may be safe from making God into an idol, …but perhaps we make “Islam” into one? When “Islam” is used to shed blood and make mischief, the desire for power turns it into propaganda….instead of a system of ethico-moral guidance based on justice, compassion and mercy.

    Perhaps that is why Moses (pbuh) broke the tablets?….instead of looking at, and understanding the Guidance, people may have worshiped the tablets instead?….just as they did the calf…..

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Hello Mozer,

    can you tell all your muslim friends here your understanding of the interplay of genesis 12:3. Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38,39.

    Correct me if I wrong but if you pick up the Tanach and read from Isaiah to Malachi its basically death and destruction to all Israel’s enemies.

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  8. Paul, this disgusting person has made the moon-god-claim. I would support an instant ban of people who make this claim. There is nothing to discuss with them further.

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  9. O dear. Muslims can’t answer the question whether Pontius Pilate crucified Jesus of Nazareth with a simple yes or no.

    I would of thought for Allah this would be pretty basic.

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  10. Too funny. He wasn’t crucified but you ask why the Romans crucified him. Welcome to islam

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    • The question is “According to YOUR belief, why do YOU think was the reason Romans crucified Jesus?” Seems some people have difficulty understanding simple questions after having brainwashed to believe 3 is 1. Welcome to Christianity.

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    • Gabriel, do you believe H20 is one substance but has 3 forms – water, gas and ice?

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    • “H20 is one substance but has 3 forms – water, gas and ice”

      It sounds like your understanding of the Trinity is identical to the Hindu concept of Trimurti: one supreme being in three divine forms . . . Kind of pagan.

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    • Verdant, Gabriel,
      FYI- Achillies53 Does not seem to have a strong understanding of his own religion. He is more interested in attacking Islam, rather than gaining a deeper understanding of the origins of Christianity.

      He is not very well read on the modern scholarship…..its his “Achillies” heel.

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    • Ibn Issam,

      I find it hard to believe the pagan Romans were offended by the teachings of Jesus (as). He(as) didn’t make any vocal or political threat to their empire, nor did he had sufficient followers for the Romans to feel threatened by. So, why did the Romans ordered the worst form of punishment ? A possible reason could be the Jews had influenced the high ranking Roman officials, in which case the culprits are the Jews first and then the Romans.

      Correct me if I’m wrong.

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    • Too funny. Have you read Calvin’s institutes of the Christian religion? Perhaps you could tell me how me how Calvin and Luther differ on predestination?

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  11. jews kill jesus and prophets according too holy bible 1.thessalonians 2:14-15

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    • Spot on. But, Achillies says it’s the Romans and not the Jews.

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    • At law, when we talk about the crime of murder, we talk about mens rea and actus rea. One is the mental state or motive and the other is the physical act.

      The sanhedren wanted Jesus dead for calling himself Yahweh. The romans carried out the act.

      As Peter says in Acts, you had him killed at the hands of Godless men.

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    • So now you concede the Jews were also responsible. In fact, I would say they take the lion’s share of the blame. Still, you haven’t explained why the Romans “carried out the act”. ? Why should the pagan Romans be concerned about Jesus statements ?

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    • According to Achillies53 the Jews murdered Christ, using the Romans as the murder weapon.

      The real question here is the motive (hint: its not because Jesus is God).

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    • Have you guys read the gospels? Pontius Pilate ordered the crucifixion because he thought there was going to a riot if he didn’t.

      Btw your poster boy Ehrman has said Jesus being crucified by Pontius Pilate is one of the most surest facts in history which ipso facto means whoever wrote the koran was an ignoramus.

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    • I haven’t read the gospels completely. Again, what made Pilate think that there was going to be a riot ? Jesus(as) had very very few followers and he wasn’t inciting them for any sort of violence.

      Qur’an agrees with the sign of Jonah mentioned by Jesus(as). It’s the Bible authors who wrote what they heard from people who were not even eye-witnesses and ignored the sign mentioned by Jesus(as). When Jesus(as) has foretold this event explicitly, we don’t need Bart Ehrman to affirm a miraculous event. He or any other historian would be the last person to look for affirmation of miraculous events.

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  12. @ Poitierfrance

    I respectfully disagree.

    The only people on the face of the known world who were on pure monotheism were the the Jews.

    The original Jewish followers of Jesus were wipe out by the gentile christianity which became the state religion of imperial Rome.
    ” As Christianity grew throughout the Gentile world, Christians diverged from their Jewish and Jerusalem roots. Jewish Christianity, initially strengthened despite persecution by Jerusalem Temple officials,[citation needed] fell into decline during the Jewish-Roman wars (66-135) and the growing anti-Judaism perhaps best personified by Marcion (c. 150). With persecution by the orthodox Christians from the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine in the 4th century, Jewish Christians sought refuge outside the boundaries of the Empire, in Arabia and further afield”
    Wikipedia.org/ Jewish Christians.

    So monotheism was barely holding in the 7th century and the only people who were holding to the belief of the one true God were the Jews.

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    • You may think christians are not really monotheists. Fine. You can make a case for that and you may even be right.

      Christians in late antiquity however did not go around confessing to be pagans. They would claim they were monotheists, they preach and teach that to others. They would condemn paganism and forbid the worshiping of idols. They were very anti-pagan. The Roman empire conducted an aggresive campaign to fight and convert the pagan germanic tribes in Europe. The eastern roman empire also sent missionaries that converted pagan slavic tribes to christianity. Paganism was very much in decline in the Euroasian world. On in certain parts of central asia and the interior of Africa was Paganism still very strong.

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    • @ Poitierfrance.

      If you recall I qualified my statement about christianit by calling it a watered down version of Greek paganism.
      Christianity while acknowledging the God of Abraham also incorporates neoplatonism, a dying and rising diety , demi gods which issue from mortal and devine union e.t.c .

      Christianity is a Jewish Grego-Roman synthesis .

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  13. Kinda ironic that Muslims here claim that Christianity is pagan while the koran contains many gnostic fables 😂😂😂😂

    While I appreciate that Muhammad thought he was teaching monotheism, he was clearly far too uneducated to realise that the fables he included were paganistic 😂😂

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    • You’re Polytheists with no doubt.

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    • Except we were monotheists 600 years before Muhammadism adopted gnostic fables lol

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    • Give me one prophet including Jesus who worshipping a god who used to defecate? It’s only your false prophet Paul.

      Liked by 1 person

    • You have a creepy poo obsession dude

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    • Christians always suppose their stories to be actual and then use them against Islam. Because they BELIEVE that something is authentic they think they can actually refute Islam with it. Because they BELIEVE that something is apocryphal they think they can actually refute Islam with it.

      That could be seen when Paulus said that Jesus talking in the cradle is not “actual history” a couple of days ago. As if anything we know about Jesus is actual history.
      Or when this idiot Alfred Guillame said that there is not any historical proof for Abraham being in Mecca. As if there was any historical proof for Abraham existing anyway.

      So stop supposing your Bible is right when criticizing Islam. You can criticize Islam using history but do not think that your Bible is history.

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    • rider

      The story of jesus talking in the cradle comes from christian apocrypha that all historians of jesus reject as historical.

      Why would allah plagiarize historically false apocrypha? Doesn’t he know any better? And please present your evidence that Abraham was in mecca.

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    • You are indeed stupid filth. You haven’t understood anything of what I said. There is no proof that Abraham existed. Belief in him is based on scripture.

      “present your evidence that Abraham was in mecca” is something only a blind brainless evangelical Christian can ask. You have no evidence that Abraham existed to begin with. The Bible is no evidence!

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    • Rider it is based on historical method. If you apply extreme skepticism as you suggest why are you a Muslim?

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    • Poor rider – another fool brainwashed by an ignorant 7th century savage.

      The bible teaches us about god – it is the teaching that counts. Whether Abraham was real is irrelevant – what the stories of Genesis teach are the nature and person of god.

      Islam ignores its holy book and worships according to the irrational rantings of a deformed sadist who couldn’t read well enough to know whether what his scribes were writing was what he had told them to write.

      that is the fundamental difference between christianity and islam – christian writings teach us about who god is, islamic writings foist the brutal and ignorant actions of mohammed onto his followers where you have to brainwash yourselves into thinking that drinking camel’s urine is the best cure ever and that satan farts when he hears the call to prayer.

      The quran, however, claims to be the word of god – if abraham does not exist, islam is false. You’ve check mated yourself. LOL!

      Like

    • “You have a creepy poo obsession dude”
      It’s a divine one ! 😂

      Like

    • Kev,
      The fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is that Muslims worship the One Unitarian God of Abraham, while Christians Idolize a mythological Greco Roman Man God and adopt a belief that they are “saved” through a paganistic Blood sacrifice.

      The Qur’an teaches us about the true nature of God, in line with the OT, while the NT teaches a Trinitarian aberration that is diametrically opposed to the OT understanding of the Unitarian nature of God.

      Your Bible has brainwashed you in to believing the following:

      -God commands rape victims to marry their rapists. Deut.22:28,29;
      – Holy war and Dashing babies against the rocks Psalm 137:9;
      -Widow must marry her brother in law Deut. 25:10
      -parents to stone to death their disobedient sons? (Deuteronomy 21:18:21)
      -Women not allowed to teach and must remain silent (1 Timothy 2:12)
      -Canabalism (Jeremiah 19:9)
      -Justification of Slavery, Slaves must endure Abuse from their masters (1 Peter 2:18)
      -Cursing and killing 42 children (2 Kings 2:23-24)
      -Genocide (1 Samuel 15:3 & Ex. 23:23)
      -Abuse and rape of Concubines (Judges 19:25-28)
      -Parents to put their own children to death (Leviticus 20:9)
      -Stoning adulterers leviticus 20:10
      -Child abuse (Proverbs 22:15)
      -Racism (Gal. 4
      -Child Marriage (David and Abishag 1 Kings 1:4; Rebecca/Isaac; Dinah/Shechem; Mary/Joseph)
      -Incest (Lot and his daughters)

      It seems that you have been deluded by unknown ancient scribes and Bible forgeries.

      Like

    • The historical method can be applied to the biblical accounts about the Kingdom of Israel and Judea because their existence is attested. This is in no way possible for the stories in Genesis.

      You cannot prove that Abraham existed and did this and we cannot prove that Abraham existed and did that.
      What we can prove is the existence of on God and that the Qur’an must be from Him. We can also prove that the Qur’an was transmitted reliably. Based on this we believe what is written in it about Abraham and the rest.

      Like

    • “Islam ignores its holy book…christian writings teach us about who god is”

      Islam indeed ignores the Christian writings when it comes to anything. The theology of the OT is not ignored but confirmed by Islam. Writing about the Prophets, creation and some other things from the OT are rejected but the main fundamental belief in one God is the same.

      Like

    • Ibn Issam.

      The sacrificial system is well established in the Tanakh, Pslams and Prophets, and fulfilled in the New Covenant. There is a consistency in our faith that flows from all the prophets.

      Islam, however, differs from the former prophets. This is because Muhammad was ignorant and far removed from the history, theology and practice of the former prophets.

      So contra your claim, the koran is glaringly contradictory to the former prophets.

      Like

    • Paulus,
      What consistency? Everything about NT Christianity is in diametric opposition to the OT, and contradicts the Prophets, like trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole. There is no dovetail between NT and OT. That is the first clue that the innovations of NT Christianity is far from the truth that the Prophets preached.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ibn Issam,

      Don’t you know that Moses(as) raising the bronze serpent in the OT was found to be similar to Jesus(as) being raised on the cross in NT ?

      This is the extent to which the NT authors have force-fitted Jesus(as) to the OT stories and their followers lap it up like some sort of consistency. Probably, they should be a bit more consistent and admit that just like the bronze serpent was later destroyed by King Hezekiah, the cross will be later destroyed by Jesus(as) in his second coming as mentioned in the hadith.

      See how the consistency flows from the OT to the NT to the hadith literature. Amazing indeed.

      Like

    • Ibn

      “The fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is that Muslims worship the One Unitarian God of Abraham”

      LOL.

      The fundamental difference between christianity and islam is that muslims worship like pagans. End of.

      Like

    • Rider

      What we can prove is the existence of on God and that the Qur’an must be from Him. We can also prove that the Qur’an was transmitted reliably.

      So your proof of the quran’s divine origin is that there might have been a few human beings who had great memories? LOL.

      Sorry, but you cannot possibly know whether what you have written in your cobbled together holy book is what mohammed actually said – mohammed was illiterate so even he had no way of knowing if what his scribes wrote down is what he told them to write.

      Like I said you have rather stupidly check-mated yourself.

      Like

    • rider

      “The theology of the OT is not ignored but confirmed by Islam. Writing about the Prophets, creation and some other things from the OT are rejected but the main fundamental belief in one God is the same.”

      So the quran copied OT stories. SO WHAT?!!!

      Nowhere in the OT are jews commanded to circle a pagan shrine, pray 5 times, kiss a black stone pagan god, or worship, revere, and imitate human prophets.

      Islam is idolatry – a classic cult of personality.

      Like

    • “The sacrificial system is well established in the Tanakh, Pslams and Prophets, and fulfilled in the New Covenant. There is a consistency in our faith that flows from all the prophets.”

      the Jewish disagree

      animal when sacrificed cannot be “suffering servant”
      a wounded animal does not give any healing
      this is illegal in the sacrificial system
      why are you seeing a human being or a pagan god who became man as a levitical sacrifice?

      quote :
      The idea that anyone can atone for others whether through pain or death — such as the Christian concept of Jesus dying for sins — is totally unbiblical. The Christian concept of the suffering messiah (Jesus) contradicts a core Jewish teaching that G-d promises forgiveness to all who sincerely turn to Him (Isaiah 55:6-7, Jeremiah 36:3, Ezekiel chapters 18 and 33, Hoseah 14:1-3, Jonah 3:6-10, Proverbs 16:6, Daniel 4:27, 2-Chronicles 7:14).

      Like

  14. Mozer,
    Why didn’t Moses kill Aaron in light ( Exoudes 32:27)?
    Aaron should have been the first one since he is the one who built the golden calf. Don’t you think ?

    Like

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