Paul & Jesus: did they teach the same religion?

Reblogged from “Christianity in Antiquity (CIA): The Bart Ehrman Blog”

I spent several posts explicating Paul’s understanding of his gospel, that by Christ’s death and resurrection a person is put into a restored relationship with God.  He had several ways of explaining how it worked (the “judicial” model; the “participationist” model; and the other models I described).   But in all of these ways, it was Jesus’ death and resurrection that mattered.  It was not keeping the Jewish law.  It was not knowing or following Jesus’ teaching.  It was not Jesus’ miracles.  It was not … anything else.   It was Jesus’ death and resurrection.

I then summarized in my previous post, the teaching of Jesus himself, about the coming Son of Man and the need to prepare by keeping the Law of God, as revealed in the Torah, as summarized in the commandments to love God above all else and to love one’s neighbor as oneself.

Do these represent the same religion?

I see this as one of the most fundamental and important questions in all of early Christianity.   I’m not asking if Paul invented Christianity, for reasons that I have explained: he inherited his understanding of the death and resurrection of Jesus from those who came before him, even if he understood its significance for Gentiles differently from his predecessors.   But I am asking if the gospel that Paul preached is essentially the same or different from the message of Jesus.  A very good case can be made, of course, that they are fundamentally different.

The way I used to try to get to this in my undergraduate class was by having my students write a short paper with the following instructions.

First, I had them read and analyze the famous story of the so-called “Rich Young Ruler” as found, for example, in Matthew 19:16-22.   (I say so-called because in Matthew of the Gospels he is young – though definitely not in Mark  – and in only one of the Gospels — Luke – is he said to be a ruler.)   In Matthew’s version, the man comes up to Jesus and asks him “what good deed must I do to inherit eternal life.”   Jesus answers swiftly and directly “If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”   The man asks which ones, and Jesus lists some of the Ten Commandments, along with the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.  The man claims he has indeed kept these.   Jesus then tells him that if he wants to be perfect, he needs to sell everything he owns and give the money away to the poor, “and you will have treasure in heaven.  And then come, follow me.”

It is important to notice what Jesus’ response is to how to have eternal life.  You have to keep the laws God laid out in the Torah.  And if you want to have treasures in heaven, you are to do even more than that – you are to give love *totally* to your (poor) neighbor.   That’s how one earns salvation.

So, I have my students summarize and discuss that passage.   And then I give them a thought experiment:  suppose that twenty years later the *same* man, now in middle age, comes up to the apostle Paul, and asks him “what must I do in order to inherit eternal life?”   What does Paul say in response?  Does he say, “Keep the commandments”?  Or “follow the Torah”?  Or, “give away everything you own and you will have treasures in heaven”?

Or does he say something completely different?  The answer, of course, is that Paul says something completely different.   Paul does not tell the person to follow the Law of God.  He tells him to “believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and be baptized.”

Is that the same thing?   My students often simply never saw the difference, which I found rather amazing.  My more thoughtful students would argue two points to say that basically the messages of Jesus and Paul were the same thing, not different.   First, some would point out that Jesus *did* say “come, follow me” – and that’s comparable (they argued) to Paul saying “believe in Christ.”  In my view it’s not the same.   Jesus indicates that the man will have treasure in heaven by giving everything away, not by following him (note: he says “follow me” only after he says the man will have treasure by doing the law and giving away his goods).

Second, some would argue that Jesus could not very well tell someone to believe in his death and resurrection before he died, so he was speaking to the situation *before* his death, whereas Paul was speaking to the situation *after* his death.   That’s a clever solution, but it doesn’t work for Paul, I think.  And that’s because Paul insists that if a person could be made right with God by keeping God’s laws, then there would have been no reason for Christ to have died (as he explicitly states in Gal. 2:21).  And there’s a real logic in that.  If Jesus really thought that a person could have eternal life by following the law and could have treasures in heaven by giving away all his property, why would *he* think it was necessary for him to die?  People could just be law-abiding Jews, and that would be more than enough.

I do see some continuities between what Jesus had to say and what Paul had to say (about which I’ll say some things in my next post), but at the end of the day, it sure seems to me that they had different understandings of “salvation.”   Jesus had an urgent message to deliver about the coming kingdom of God to be brought by the Son of Man for those who were obedient to God; and Paul had an urgent message to deliver about the return of Jesus for the “saved” – those who believed in Christ’s death and resurrection.



Categories: Bible, Christianity

57 replies

  1. Very persuasive indeed.

    Like

  2. “Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

    Bart says that Jesus insists he must keep the law and give away all that he owned.

    The way to keep the law was to love as Christ loved. (That cannot be accomplished without Christ present in one’s heart. Bart doesn’t see the personalized approach and challenge Christ used with this man. He meets all of us right where we are at. Christianity isn’t a set of rules or a formula.) That completed the entire transaction. He said he should give away all that he owned, too, because that was the crucial test to see whether or not his heart longed to please God and love others.

    The law didn’t change the hearts of people as much as it guided their behavior. They were supposed to internalize the laws which were merely outward constraints and requirements. God always wanted and still wants our hearts. Outward obedience follows the changed heart, eagerly. That is why He condemned the religious hot shots of His day and He still does. Keeping the Sabbath perfectly from a compulsion to look good to your neighbor is not what God wanted.

    No one can change the heart of man like Christ can and that was the idea behind this unusual challenge.

    Like

  3. “What does He mean by saying, ‘You will look for Me, but you will not find Me,’ and, ‘Where I am, you cannot come’?” “On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’”

    According to the Gospel of Bart, this particular verse has no bearing on his argument that Paul and Jesus preached different religions. Bart says all that Christ emphasized for salvation was adherence to the Law. Proof-texting is not an acceptable approach for the comprehensive study of Scripture for anyone serious about studying the Bible, yet Bart is guilty of this time after time.

    Like

    • Have you read a single book by Professor Bart Ehrman?

      Like

    • Does listening to his audio books count? Then, yes. And I have listened to him interviewed and watched him debate and read articles he’s written and I have to say that Bart, IMO, makes little sense. Even his menter, Bruce Metzger, considered the greatest textual critic of all time, differed sharply, and most textual critics do, with Bart’s wild conclusions. He is an outstanding writer of fiction. He reaches the average person with a wonderful style of simplicity and ease.

      “Metzger came to much more conservative conclusions than Ehrman — yet looked at the exact same evidence. The vast majority of textual critics are closer to Metzger than Ehrman….We have over 25,000 manuscript pieces of textual evidence to help us reconstruct the originals of the New Testament documents, and much of this evidence is very early. This is by far and away the best attested work in history…
      in the ancient world written texts were regarded as expressions of an oral tradition, and it was understood that it’s okay to slightly modify oral traditions to address new issues that have arisen in the community. So even if certain texts were altered slightly (and all the alleged alterations are in fact slight), it doesn’t mean there was anything sinister going on. This is what people expected to be done.” GA Boyd

      Like

  4. Love Gamaliel. So did everyone else.
    First, he reminded the boys of Judas and Theudas and then he told them,
    “So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” So they took his advice,

    Like

    • “when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus.”

      Fantastic rebuttal to the vast number of anti-christian zealots who believe these guys made up the N.T.

      Like

  5. Poor Bart. He believes literalists, or fundies, are duped. Yet, he holds to a literal interpretation of, “Large crowds were now traveling with Jesus, and He turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.…”

    I must hate my family and carry around a big old cross when I swim or buy a new shirt.

    Like

  6. Paul, I haven’t seen a requirement that I must answer your questions before I’m allowed to comment. I told you before I prefer to ignore you. Is that a violation of your rules? If so, I’ll stop commenting.

    Like

    • Perhaps you do not realise that I own and run this blog. If I so wish I could ban you from ever commenting again.

      So far your comments have been self indulgent and somewhat eccentric. But hey ho..

      Like

  7. As mentioned above Gamaliel refers to the messianic claims of a man by the name of Theudas. He tried to make it big on the Messianic circuit, but didn’t have much luck.

    Jewish Antiquities 20.97-98
    Story: Between 44 and 46 CE, one Theudas, about whom Josephus is predictably negative, caused some consternation with what may have been a claim to be the Messiah.

    It came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain charlatan, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it. Many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them. After falling upon them unexpectedly, they slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem.
    [(Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.97-98]

    Good to see these cross references that establish the reliability of the New Testament. To listen to many who despise Christianity, the New Testament is just a big joke, totally discredited and untrustworthy.

    Like

  8. Antipas was an upright man and a pious witness of the San of God; Who, in proof of his faith, tasted death, rather than dishonor his Saviour, by denying Him, or otherwise. This happened in the life Page 96 time of the apostle John. Hence he may be reckoned one of the first of those who suffered, during the time of Domitian, for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Of this hero and knight of God, the Lord Himself made mention to His servant John, yea, commanded him, to write to the teacher at Pergamos concerning him, saying: “To the angel of the church in Pergamos write: These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and host not denied my faith, even in those days, wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth” (Rev. 2:12-14).
    Touching the time and manner of his death, there is nothing stated in Holy Writ; but some of the ancient writers maintain that he was enclosed in a red-hot brazen ox*, and thus burned alive with great pain, yet in steadfastness. As regards the time when this happened, we ascertain from Holy Scripture, that he was killed in the lifetime of John. Some fix this occurrence in the time of Domitian of about A.D. 95.-See concerning this, A. Mel[., Ist Book, van de Hist. der Vervolg, en Martel., printed A. D. 1619, fol. 22, col. 1. Also, d’ Annotation der Laetste Bybelsch Oversettinge, Rev. 2:12,13. JOHN, THE HOLY EVANGELIST, BANISHED TO THE
    ISLE OF PATMOS, BY EMPEROR DOMITIAN, A. D. 97
    Martyrsmirror1 On Christian Martyrdom

    *A hollow bull is cast entirely out of brass with a door on the side. After the condemned was placed inside, the door was closed and a fire was set underneath the bull. This caused the bottom of the bull to become “red-hot” and thus burning/roasting the victim.

    The head of the ox was designed with a complex system of tubes and stops so that the prisoner’s screams were converted into sounds like the bellowing of an infuriated bull. This device combined the horrors of claustrophobia, suffocation, and burning at the stake. the brazen bull.

    Like

  9. “…he proves to them that he was an apostle before he had that meeting with the apostles in a body; for at that time, instead of receiving the gospel from the apostles, he communicated to them the gospel,…”

    Benson Commentary

    Like

    • “The Gospel of John, on the other hand, does believe that “the Word” of God created the world. And the Word became incarnate as the man Jesus Christ. But it’s not quite right to say even for John that Jesus was the Creator of the world. Jesus did not exist, for John, until the Word became flesh. When it did so, it became the man Jesus. So, it was the Word that was the creator. And then the Word became flesh, the man Jesus. Only in that sense is Jesus associated with creation, as the incarnation of the Word that created all things.” B.E.

      He didn’t exist until He became flesh? Not true. Not good systematic theology, at all. Look- “He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.”

      That is not the kind of “rightly dividing the word of truth” to which Bible students are called. To be a more transparent “scholar” of the New Testament, Bart would include passages that more completely expound biblical truth. Look at I Jn. Ch.1, 1-12, The writer makes clear that the Word was God, always.

      That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—(how many decades passed before this eyewitness account was written down? We don’t have first person accounts I thought.) ” this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.

      And Col. 1, For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. “through Him”.

      Like

  10. More reasons to reject the work of Ehrman.

    “What in fact do we find when we turn to the resurrection appearance accounts in the New Testament? We find reports of many different people who experienced Jesus alive after his death and burial: Peter, John, Mary Magdalene, the twelve, “five hundred brothers at once,” and Paul. Does it strike you as reasonable that all of these people, on different occasions, were having hallucinations of the same person? The case of Paul is especially instructive. Ehrman argued that the visions of the risen Jesus were created in the anxious brains of his grief-stricken disciples, eager to commune once more with their dead Master. But Paul wasn’t grieving for Jesus at all; in fact, he was actively persecuting Jesus’ followers. He didn’t crave communion with a dead Master; he was trying to stamp out the memory of someone he took to be a pernicious betrayer of Judaism. And yet, his experience of the risen Jesus was so powerful that it utterly transformed his life, and he went to his death defending the objectivity of it.” Bishop Robert Barron

    Like

  11. “Jesus did not exist, for John, until the Word became flesh. When it did so, it became the man Jesus. So, it was the Word that was the creator. And then the Word became flesh, the man Jesus. Only in that sense is Jesus associated with creation, as the incarnation of the Word that created all things.” B.E.

    What a task! How burdensome it is to try to explain away doctrines and biblical truths. IOW, I find that if the N.T. is so deeply flawed, it shouldn’t require the massive, millennia long effort to try to prove it that has failed. Many theories are presented as if they are factual, when they are not and we hear presupposition on top of presupposition etc. and that does not necessarily lead to the truth. Boy, it may sound like it. Many, I fear are fooled by incredibly skilled masking. Layer upon layer of hypotheses mixed with statements like, “the vast majority of scholars” or “almost all textual critics acknowledge that” can seem to be completely sound, well established proofs, when they are way off track.

    Some purport that a number of the scribes had an agenda and sought to bolster their personally held beliefs. Therefore, it is hypothesized, that they altered the originals according to their own selfish desires, that they made the gospels conform to their own theological biases. However, if, as they insist, we absolutely cannot know what the originals said, then we can’t be certain they were manipulated, at all, can we? The knife cuts both ways.

    Like

  12. Why Ehrman fails.

    “If what Ehrman says is true, then it’s not possible for a historian to demonstrate against a miracle either. This would mean a historian can only be objective. I agree if this is what Ehrman really means. But he DOES insist on drawing conclusions contrary to the resurrection. Therefore he contradicts himself. He does not say:

    “We can not possibly demonstrate the validity of the resurrection, therefore it is best to conclude that the Apostles believed, and all Christians still believe, on faith; all that can be historically validated is the history of the Church itself in light of this belief.”

    Instead he tries to discredit the resurrection by arguing against the non-miraculous subtleties that point towards its possibility. He’s very clever!

    Take Christ’s burial for example. A big indicator that his resurrection is historically possible is the fact that his corpse would have easily refuted the Apostles’ claims. All the Sanhedrin had to do was get the Romans to push away the boulder, and viola! The Apostles would’ve been mocked and killed out of historical consciousness. But that’s not at all what happened. Therefore it’s entirely probable there wasn’t a corpse.
    Bart Ehrman challenges this by attempting to refute the accounts of Christ’s’ burial. For the above scenario to have been possible, a tomb was necessary. The Gospels account for this by saying that Joseph of Arimathea paid for Christ’s tomb. Ehrman rejects this account by saying there is no mention of this outside of the Gospels. To illustrate his point, he refers to the earliest known Christian creed that Saint Paul records in his First Letter to the Corinthians. This creed mentions the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Ehrman himself agrees that this creed can be traced back to within three years after Christ’s death and resurrection. Scholar James D. G. Dunn traces it as far back as months after the resurrection. Yet Ehrman focuses solely on the word “burial” in this creed and questions why Joseph of Arimathea is not mentioned. His answer is:

    “My hunch is that it is because he knew nothing about a burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimathea.”

    This is an enormous leap when one considers the creed he himself concedes is an early account. A creed is meant to be a brief, easily remembered hymn to orally pass down history. There is no reason why Joseph of Arimathea needs to be mentioned. The fact that Christ’s burial is even mentioned is itself a testament to its importance to the creed’s message, which is the resurrection. Also note that this creed proves an early belief in the resurrection. There is no possibility for legends or myth-making this short after an event. That the resurrection was being preached this early in Aramaic indicates that this belief can be traced right back to Judea, ergo we are back to the original question. Where was the corpse? If this creed was being sung soon after the event, why were the Sanhedrin not able to produce the corpse as evidence against its message?
    Because Ehrman cherry picks this creed to suit his “hunch”, he does not notice how the creed itself lends credibility AGAINST his hunch. An objective historian would say that this creed’s earlier origin supports the contention that Christ’s tomb was empty. Note I didn’t say this proves the resurrection. It simply points to it being far more probable and evidence-based than Ehrman’s hunch. Ehrman cherry-picks frequently. Bishop Robert Barron offers far more examples in that article I posted.

    You did not address Ehrman’s weak understanding of Jewish tradition. This is an EXTREMELY important point. Christ was Jewish. Everything he said and did was within the context of Jewish culture. Part of the reason Ehrman overlooks scriptural nuances that discredit his theories is that he does not see the implications they would have had in ancient Israel. Any New Testament theory that lacks an thorough understanding of Jewish beliefs and traditions is based on faulty premises and is therefore suspect. Please read Dr. Pitre’s books. He offers better arguments that I can.”
    Last edited by HoistedSheep; Apr 14, ’16 at 12:38 am.

    Like

  13. I’m not asking if Paul invented Christianity, for reasons that I have explained: he inherited his understanding of the death and resurrection of Jesus from those who came before him, even if he understood its significance for Gentiles differently from his predecessors. be

    That is not true, not according to the N.T. Paul learned about Christ mostly through one on one tutoring.

    Like

  14. “Of course, many people today would argue that
    such views could not be Christian. What is strik-
    ing to the historian, though, is that people who
    claimed to be Christian believed these things.
    Moreover, these believers invariably maintained
    that their ideas were taught by Jesus himself. In
    many instances, they could appeal to written proof,
    that is, documents allegedly penned by Jesus’ own
    apostles.”

    Here, Bart tries to dismantle Christianity step by step. What did Jesus say about some who would boldly proclaim they were his followers? Has he been caught off-guard by the variety of people claiming to be his kids? Let’s look. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’…” No. He predicted these things. Even very, very seemingly spiritual Christians will be rejected ultimately by the one who knows the hearts of men. Bart fails to make his case.

    Like

    • “Moreover, even if the books that made it into
      the New Testament agree on certain fundamental
      points (for example, that there is only one God),
      is it possible that they might disagree on others
      (such as who Jesus is)? That is to say, if Christians
      in the second century, a hundred fifty years or so
      after Jesus, held such a wide range of beliefs, is it
      not possible that Christians of the first century
      (when the books of the New Testament were
      being written) did as well? Did all of the early
      Christians agree on the fundamental points of
      their religion?”

      Speculation in the form of broad questions is an acceptable approach to try to address issues from history. To speculate on the answers to those kinds of questions is fine, too. However, to frame broad questions and their answers in a fashion that can be misleading to the average person is not the ethical way to build a case.

      Like

  15. “Despite Ehrman’s claim that Acts is a forgery, he likes it when it’s convenient for him. Discussing why the New Testament book of James was not written by James, he writes,

    the one thing we know best about James of Jerusalem is that he was concerned that Jewish followers of Jesus continue to keep the requirements of Jewish law. But this concern is completely and noticeably missing in this letter. This author, claiming to be James, is concerned with people doing ‘good deeds’; he is not at all concerned with keeping kosher, observing the Sabbath and Jewish festivals, or circumcision. His concerns are not those of James of Jerusalem (198).

    How do we know this about James? It’s reported in the book of Acts. Readers will be surprised, then, to read on the very next page that Ehrman regards Acts as a forgery: “a book that scholars have as a rule been loath to label a forgery, even though that is what it appears to be—the New Testament book of Acts” (199; cf. 208). Apparently, even for Ehrman, being a forgery does not negate the possibility of providing reliable historical evidence. It’s disappointing too that Ehrman speaks of Acts being a forgery as though this is the conclusion of scholarship. Craig Keener is a New Testament scholar known for his obsessive research. His commentary on John’s Gospel is one of the largest ever written, nearly 1,700 pages. Keener has a very broad knowledge of the ancient literature which he cites more than 10,000 times in that commentary. At this very moment, his commentary on Acts is in the editing process with Baker Academic and will be published one volume at a time. Why publish it in stages? Because Keener’s commentary on Acts is more than 7,000 pages! Those familiar with Keener’s work carry a huge respect for his introductory content where authorship is one of the topics covered. Keener has told me that having surveyed the academic literature on Acts and it’s prequel, Luke’s Gospel, he can assert that the majority of modern scholars hold to the traditional authorship of Luke and Acts. (Most specialists on the Gospel of Mark likewise hold to its traditional authorship.) Why doesn’t Ehrman mention this, since he mentions what the majority of scholars believe so frequently throughout the book? Perhaps he doesn’t know it or he doesn’t mention it because the majority don’t support his conclusions here.” Mike Lacona

    I’m grateful for scholars like Lacona who have invested their time and energy to plumb the depths of the mysteries of the N.T. Ehrman would demonstrate true devotion to his craft if he would correct the errors of omission and commission which pervade his books.

    Like

    • Why would forgers expect to be received as the credible authors of the books of the N.T. when the men whose names they stole and used in their titles were already dead?

      How did they, the forgers, expect to receive credit for those books when they chose another’s name for the title and thus remained anonymous?

      Like

  16. An earthquake hit the area.

    “The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped.” (Execution was automatic for allowing prisoners to escape–no excuses.)

    “But Paul called out in a loud voice, ‘Do not harm yourself! We are all here!’ Calling for lights, the jailer rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.…Then he brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’…They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household’”

    Paul wasn’t a young man at this point. He’d had had his butt kicked more than once for running around crying out like a mad man, too. And at one time he had enjoyed some status. “A pharisee of pharisees.” Then, he was called to preach the gospel to the masses, a special anointing to reach all the gentiles. So, in time he reemerged as a distinguished and famous evangelist and here, stuck in a stinking prison, he was given a practically miraculous opportunity to bolt and continue on his successful journey. What does he do? Reminiscent of Philemon and Onesimus?

    Like

  17. Martin Hengel, that towering figure of German biblical scholarship, wrote about the parallel dangers from “an uncritical, sterile apologetic fundamentalism” and “from no less sterile ‘critical ignorance’” on the part of radical liberalism (Studies in Early Christology [1995] 57–58). At bottom, the approaches are the same; the only differences are the presuppositions. A true liberal is one who is open to all the evidence, including the possibility that God has invaded space-time history in the person of Jesus Christ. A true liberal is one who is willing to go where the evidence leads, even if it contradicts his or her cherished beliefs.

    dan wallace

    Like

  18. Dylan has a way of putting things that grab you right in the throat. “Gotta serve somebody. Yes indeed, you’re gonna have to serve somebody. Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you’re gonna have to serve somebody.”

    Like

    • but will you serve the same God Jesus did?

      Like

    • Jesus is my God, Paul. And His Father is, too, and The Comforter or Holy Spirit.

      [H2O=steam, ice and liquid water. Its composition is exactly the same. It simply occupies different states of being depending on temperature.] The 3 in 1 concept of God poses no difficulty for me. I guess I’ve said this before, but what I find difficult, in fact, I find it tortuous at times, is obedience, following Him no matter the cost

      For example, shortly after I found Him, I was asked to play Romeo in the play Romeo and Juliet. It turns out, the young woman chosen to be “Juliet” was a blonde, tanned, extraordinarily well proportioned bombshell I was interested in getting to know (in the Biblical sense).

      Elevated above me on a staircase she practiced her lines, which involved bending down in front of me. She did so without wearing anything under her loose top. In a split second I had to decide what to do. I had absolutely no idea that I would be confronted with a situation like that, ever. None. I didn’t know what sin was, or fornication or adultery. Nothing.

      But, it dawned on me instantly that I did not want to go to hell. I was already too familiar with it. I dreaded the thought of going back to a hot, lonely place, a place with no friends or family or loved ones, but of sleepless and restlessness and torment forever; and I didn’t know if I would ever have another chance.

      I turned away in a split second. I didn’t see anything. (Later, I ended up excusing myself from the play.) I rocketed back to where I was living on my 10 speed and hurt all over for several days. My body ached terribly. The pain was harsh, like an electric shock jolting me. The pain was unremitting and on occurred on a deep, cellular level. Nothing offered relief, for days. I shook and felt nuts, aching, shaking, hurting so bad. That is what I mean when I say it is difficult to follow Him at times.

      You know, it is odd. I cannot find anything in the scholarship that demonstrates in a concrete fashion, to me, that the content in the New Testament isn’t trustworthy. Yet, it seems that to some people the N.T. has been thoroughly discredited. I can’t understand how they arrive at that conclusion. To me, Paul, all the research does the opposite; it confirms His divinity, it removes any doubt that He was God almighty. Trying to dissect the words and phrases found throughout those books and letters reveals, if anything the phenomenal care the writers and scribes applied to their work.

      Like

    • “I cannot find anything in the scholarship that demonstrates in a concrete fashion, to me, that the content in the New Testament isn’t trustworthy.”

      Tell me which works of biblical scholarship you have read.

      Like

  19. Ehrman, Metzger, Price, Carrier and others. I haven’t read a lot of what they’ve written. I listened to some audio books and read debates with Wallace and Licona and others. I’ve read what C.S. Lewis had to say about textual critics and literary criticism. I am familiar with their premises. I’m obviously no expert by any stretch. But, I’m familiar with the arguments and I cannot understand the leap that some make that rejects the thrust of the N.T.

    I’ve tried to explore the following issue without seeing a response I thought was complete or very informative. Another way of attacking this issue is this: who in the world was he if not God’s son?

    Like

    • Hank: way of attacking this issue is this: who in the world was he if not God’s son?

      As if this question hasn’t been answered a million times.

      Liked by 1 person

    • sorry, could you name just 1 book written by a biblical scholar (CS Lewis was not one) that you have read from cover to cover?

      Like

    • Correct. Lewis was no Biblical scholar

      In reading the Bible as literature, Lewis was in his element.
      His primary calling was as an English professor, and
      in this he was virtually without peer. While at Oxford he
      wrote a famous volume on the sixteenth century for the Oxford
      History of English Literature, and in 1954 he was awarded
      the chair of Mediaeval and Renaissance Literature at Cambridge
      University.

      Lewis thus came to Holy Scripture as a reader, not a
      theologian—someone for whom the Bible was always more
      than literature, but could never be less.

      He wrote, “A man who has spent his youth and manhood in the
      minute study of New Testament texts and of other people’s
      studies of them, whose literary experience of those texts
      lacks any standard of comparison such as can only grow
      from a wide and deep and genial experience of literature in
      general, is . . . very likely to miss the obvious things
      about them.”

      “I have been suspected of being what is called a Fundamentalist.
      That is because I never regard any narrative
      as unhistorical simply on the ground that it includes the
      miraculous. Some people find the miraculous so hard to
      believe that they cannot imagine any reason for my acceptance
      of it other than a prior belief that every sentence
      of the Old Testament has historical or scientific truth. But
      this I do not hold.”

      “…a theology which denies the historicity of nearly everything
      in the Gospels to which Christian life and affections and
      thought have been fastened for nearly two millennia—
      which either denies the miraculous altogether or, more
      strangely, after swallowing the camel of the Resurrection
      strains at such gnats as the feeding of the multitudes.”

      Dr. Philip Graham Ryken, D.Phil.
      Professor of Theology, President, Wheaton College, Wheaton, Illinois

      Like

  20. “That’s the thing about theology: it is not dependent on any one verse for any of its views, but on an entire panoply of verses on a range of topics that are interpreted in light of each other and in light of the Christian tradition to produce a view that is seen as theologically acceptable. (*Acceptable to whom, Dr. Ehrman? Who originally used that method of affirming scripture to support an already established doctrine?) Because of the way that theology *works*, a textual variant by its very nature cannot “threaten” any doctrine. Even if a variant reading says the precise opposite of what a doctrine teaches, theologians can incorporate it into their views by reading it in light of what other contrary texts say.” BE

    Completely untrue. This is the type of logic that fails over and over. The verses are not interpreted in a particular way to confirm or to justify a preconceived doctrine. Doctrine develops as a result of searching the scriptures with all diligence to see what they say, period. Otherwise, it is proof-texting.

    I am amazed that a bible scholar of Ehrman’s status makes statements like that, although I shouldn’t be. Unfortunately, he’s left a trail of error filled statements without correcting them formally. With his utmost dedication to and genius for defining what N.T. words and phrases mean in great detail, his plethora of “mistakes” sure seem strange.

    No. Dr. Ehrman Jesus was not unconcerned about the family. When he said one must hate his parents and siblings and take up his cross daily to follow him, he was not in any sense minimizing the importance of the family unit. Rather, He was explaining that our love and dedication to him must surpass every other thing, everywhere, always. If it doesn’t, if we allow other “gods” to take his place, there’s a probability that 1. we won’t be fulfilled. And 2. that we will lose him, too.

    Like

  21. Leon Russell

    Oh, love the blind and wounded as that you would yourself
    And the businessmen in cells collecting pennies

    Judge their wealth by coins that they give away
    And not the ones that they keep for themselves for spending

    Oh, never be impatient with the ones who love you
    It might be yourself that you’re burning

    Sing a song of love and open up your heart
    For you might be the prince of peace returning
    you might be the prince of peace returning
    you might be the prince of peace returning

    He died on Sunday. “Barry Goldwater never walked on water”

    Gwen Ifill died on the !4th. She was a lovely, gracious, beautiful lady, an outstanding reporter and host of Washington Week and PBS News Hour. I wish I’d known she was so sick. I would have sent her a note of appreciation. Will miss them both

    Like

  22. sorry, could you name just 1 book written by a biblical scholar (CS Lewis was not one) that you have read from cover to cover? pw

    Not one.

    If there’s evidence anywhere that the N.T. isn’t reliable, please, by all means, share it.

    Like

  23. Ananias and Sapphira died instantly for lying to the Holy Spirit. Is that typical?

    Like

  24. WHYISLAM

    “Under a date-palm in the warmth of late summer, she made her dwelling, and there bore the child who was unlike any other in human history.”

    Indeed, I agree with WHYISLAM. He truly was like no other ever born in all human history.

    Like

    • The Quran tells us that Jesus said, “‘I am a servant of God. He has granted me the Scripture; made me a prophet’” (19:30). Muslims believe that Jesus was a human being appointed by God as His messenger. His birth was extraordinary and he was blessed with great miracles from God (Allah in Arabic). Jesus lived about 2,000 years ago in ancient Palestine when the Roman Empire was at its zenith. He was not conceived normally, but was miraculously implanted in the womb of a young woman named Mary by the command of God. In this sense, Jesus was a “word” from God and a special sign for humanity… The angel Gabriel reassured her of God’s blessings and she found shade and a cool spring. Under a date-palm in the warmth of late summer, she made her dwelling, and there bore the child who was unlike any other in human history. WHYISLAM

      Like

  25. All this sort of criticism attempts to
    reconstruct the genesis of the texts it studies;
    what vanished documents each author used,
    when and where he wrote, with what
    purposes, under what influences ­­ the whole
    Sitz im Leben [8] of the text. This is done
    with immense erudition and great ingenuity.
    And at first sight it is very convincing. I think
    I should be convinced by it myself, but that I
    carry about with me a charm – the herb moly
    [9] ­­ against it. You must excuse me if I now
    speak for a while of myself. The value of what
    I  say depends on its being firsthand
    evidence.
    What forearms me against all these
    reconstructions is the fact that I have seen it
    all from the other end of the stick. I have
    watched reviewers reconstructing the genesis
    of my own books in just this way.
    Until you come to be reviewed yourself you
    would never believe how little of an ordinary
    review is taken up by criticism in the strict
    sense: by evaluation, praise, or censure, of
    the book actually written. Most of it is taken
    up with imaginary histories of the process by
    which you wrote it. The very terms which the
    reviewers use in praising or dispraising
    imply such a history. They praise a passage as
    ‘spontaneous’ and censure another as
    ‘laboured’; that is, they think they know that
    you wrote the one currente calamo [10] and
    the other invita Minerva [11].
    What the value of such reconstructions is I
    learned very early in my career. I had
    published a book of essays; and the one into
    which I had put most of my heart, the one I
    really cared about and in which I discharged
    a keen enthusiasm, was on William Morris.
    And in almost the first review I was told that
    this was obviously the only one in the book in
    which I had felt no interest. C.S. Lewis

    Lewis puts into coherent sentences thoughts I can barely formulate. Perhaps that’s why he is such a revered writer. Much of what critics do and conclude is merely guesswork.

    Like

  26. Now brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephasa and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.

    “most of whom are still alive” this letter was penned not long after Christ was on earth

    Like

Please leave a Reply