Jesus’s argument in John 10

reblogged from TRINITIES

Jesus-arguing-with-the-Pharisees-300x221You think that Jesus was good. But do you also think that Jesus was smart? So smart, that you have to carefully weigh his statements and carefully parse his arguments?

I do.

In this post, I submit his argument in a famous exchange in John 10 to philosophical analysis. I think it is a forceful and brilliant argument, and one that many readers and even commenters don’t fully appreciate the force of.

So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.

Jesus answered, “I have told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name testify to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.

The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.”

Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ – and the scripture cannot be annulled – can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” Then they tried to arrest him again, but he escaped from their hands. (John 10)

Most people don’t realize the brilliance of Jesus’s argument that is packed tightly into the last portion here. Here is an analysis of it. Merely assumed premises are in brackets; the rest are either stated or obviously follow from things stated.

  1. The scriptures do not blaspheme.    (premise)
  2. The Scriptures address human recipients of God’s message as “gods.” (Psalm 82)
  3. The Scriptures do not blaspheme when they address human recipients of God’s message as “gods.” (1, 2)
  4. Jesus is God’s Messiah. (“the one whom the Father… sent into the world”)  (premise)
  5. [Jesus is greater than those human recipients of God’s message.] (4)
  6. [The title “Son of God” (i.e. Messiah) is a less exalted title than “god” or “God”.]  (unstated premise)
  7. Therefore, it is not blasphemy to describe Jesus as God’s Son. (3, 5, 6)

Jesus’s opponents grant 1 and 2, and so they must grant 3, which follows from 1 and 2. They would also grant that 4 implies 5. But they’re resisting 4, though Jesus has given them plenty of evidence for 4, in the form of his miraculous works, given him by God to validate his ministry. His opponents also assume, and would have to grant 6, and that 7 follows from 3, 5, and 6. If calling these lesser people “gods” isn’t bad, then it just can’t be bad to give this greater person (the Messiah) thelesser description, God’s Son.

In sum, the whole issue hinges on 4. The argument is valid (3 follows from 1 and 2, and 7 follows from 3, 5, and 6), and they would have to grant all the other other premises (1, 2, 6). In their blind anger, they want to say that he’s blaspheming by saying that he and God are “one” (i.e. working together). But that charge of blasphemy, Jesus brilliantly and forcefully points out, depends wholly on their stubborn belief, against the preponderance of evidence available to them, that Jesus is not God’s Messiah. Deftly, he shows how their charge of blasphemy assumes the very point at issue; it assumes that he’snot the Messiah. They are desperate to change the subject to alleged disrespectful speech, and so away from Jesus’s miraculous works, which he keeps bringing back to the forefront, because those are the most relevant evidence.

Jesus assumes they can still turn this around, so he urges them at the end of the passage above to again consider the evidence: “even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know… that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” That is, God really is with him, and they really are working together. But this gets only an angry response. They persist in their blindness.

In my experience, readers often don’t realize that 5 and  6 are in play. Often, because it fits their theology, they seize on the Jews’ reaction, “you… are making yourself God” (or “a god,” it can be translated). They don’t notice that Jesus corrects them about what he’s claiming! “I said, ‘I am God’s Son‘” – which in this gospel means that he’s the Messiah. (See the start of the passage – “I have told you”!)

See? Smart. So smart, that if you don’t work at it, you won’t fully feel the force of his argument. But his opponents did, to their own shame. We have an advantage over them: a written record, which we can ponder at length, if we choose.

Do you?



Categories: Bible

127 replies

  1. Questions remain In what sense was he “son of God” and in what sense was he “the messiah”

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  2. “in what sense was he “the messiah””

    Both Christians and Jews have their own clear-cut answers to that one.
    Muslims seem to live in a vacuum in comparison. They are free to prefer the Christian Messiah or the “Jewish” (one might say Zionist) Messiah,or a mixture of both.

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    • Second Temple Judaism had several different conceptions of what the messiah would be like. Also the Jewish scriptures refer to many messiahs, even gentile ones.

      However, no Jew (before Christianity), ever thought the messiah would be God incarnate and die for people’s sins.

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    • so the questions remain, as you can see in John 10.

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  3. 6. [The title “Son of God” (i.e. Messiah) is a less exalted title than “god” or “God”.] (unstated premise)

    This premise is probably wrong, as Psalm 86 seems to equate “gods” with “sons of god”

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    • Indeed, the Son of God is necessarily God because of monotheism.
      This is exactly what is stated in John 1.1 : “and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
      This could be rephrased as, “God’s Word is on the same level as (“with”) God, and so can only be God Himself because there is only one being on that level”
      The preterite tense is used by prophets to refer to eternal realities.

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    • I´m not sure you understand. There are no capital letters in greek or hebrew. Psalm 86 says other human beings (not Jesus) are gods and seems to equate them with “sons of god”. John 1.1 is irrelevant to Jesus argument in John 10.

      The question is why does Jesus imply “son of god” is a lesser title than “god”, if the proof text he refers to does not make this distinction? Is this smart? Is it ignorance? Not sure.

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    • Herbert, did you know that Adam is called ‘the Son of God’ in the Bible? Would you worship him?

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    • Hebert Croft

      You said;
      This could be rephrased as, “God’s Word is on the same level as (“with”) God, and so can only be God Himself because there is only one being on that level”
      The preterite tense is used by prophets to refer to eternal realities.

      I say;
      My Dear Christian brothers and sisters wake up.

      Why?
      If God’s word which is not a being by itself is God then;

      a. God’s love which is not a being by itself and it does not have weight and occupy space or have consciousness is also God then we have God #2.

      b. How about God’s Mercy? which cannot be a “being” by itself. Because God’s Mercy is with God, does that mean Mercy is also God? If yes, then we will have God #3 and we will continue to count so many Gods according to your thinking and that is polytheism and not monotheism.

      c.The Holy Bible clearly states that God is One and Alone and Only, but not with anyone.

      “You alone, Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
      “there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
      .”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
      “Before Me there was no God formed, And there “will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
      “You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
      “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
      “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; ” Mark 12:29
      “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60

      Because Jesus Christ is a being(i.e. human or divine being), it will be impossible for the “word” to be him with God because God’s “being” is Only One as Mr. Croft admitted to.

      Now consider

      “and the word(God) is with God”. How many God can you count? is it not 2 Gods? but the Bible clearly

      states that God is One in so many occasions. Not on one occasion, not on two occasions not 3, 4 and so on but many occasions in the Bible God has stressed that He is One Only and Alone. There is not a single place in the Bible where God said He is with a partner or He is in relationship with a Son.

      Mr. Croft, your word is certainly with you. Do we count your word as a human being? and that you are 2 human beings with your word? to argue with the population census officials to count you with your word as 2 persons? beings?

      In Islam also, Jesus was referred to as the word of God, Moses was referred to as the friend of God, Mohammed was referred to as the prophet of God, but all are titles given to these prophets and we Muslims knew very well that Mohammed alone is not the prophet of God, but there are other prophets of God. But we usually call them by their titles.

      Thanks.

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    • M. Intellect

      Yes, God’s love and God’s mercy and God’s compassion and God’s creative power and God’s justice are all with God and are therefore God also, by monotheism. You did not explain how you found “polytheism” in all this.

      You wrote : “There is not a single place in the Bible where God said (…) He is in relationship with a Son.”
      Of course there is. Both from the Father (Matth 3.17) and the Son (John 14.11).

      You wrote : “Jesus was referred to as the word of God, Moses was referred to as the friend of God, Mohammed was referred to as the prophet of God, but all are titles given to these prophets”

      There is a big difference in the case of Jesus, of course. It is only logical for a man to be a prophet or friend. But a man is not a word. To understand what “kalimatullah” means, you need taw eel or at least tafsir.

      Thanks

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    • Hebert Croft

      You said;
      Yes, God’s love and God’s mercy and God’s compassion and God’s creative power and God’s justice are all with God and are therefore God also, by monotheism. You did not explain how you found “polytheism” in all this.

      I say;
      “You alone, Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
      “there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
      .”to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
      “Before Me there was no God formed, And there “will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
      “You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
      “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
      “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; ” Mark 12:29
      “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60

      Mr. Croft, the above verses from the Holy Bible clearly states that God is One, Only and Alone. There are several and I am willing to provide upon request. Why is it so important for God to keep telling us He is One and Only and Alone? Because God does not want us to deviate from worshiping Him alone by adding other things.

      You said;
      Yes, God’s love and God’s mercy and God’s compassion and God’s creative power and God’s justice are all with God and are therefore God also, by monotheism.

      I say;

      God’s love is God according to you, therefore God #1
      God’s Mercy is God according to you, therefore God #2
      God’s Compassion is God according to you, therefore God #3
      God’s Justice is God according to you, therefore God #4
      God’s Word is God according to you, therefore God #5

      I could go on and to count many Gods and it is polytheism and not monotheism, because of the Biblical verses above that clearly states that God is One, Only and Alone and not in a relationship with a Son.

      Mono means 1
      Poly means many
      So, when you start to count Gods in more than 1, you fall into worshiping many Gods and that is polytheism and is against the Bible and the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus, as Jesus himself said, hear oh Israel our God is One.

      Further more, love is not a being or a person but a word which means qualities or characteristics of a person or a being in compassion but not a being itself and therefore cannot be counted as being.

      mercy is not a being or a person but a word which means qualities or characteristics of a person or a being but not being itself and therefore cannot be counted as being.

      Compassion is not a being or a person but a word which means qualities or characteristics of a person or a being but not being itself and therefore cannot be counted as being.

      justice is not a being or a person but a word which means qualities or characteristics of a person or a being but not being itself and therefore cannot be counted as being and so on. All Allahs attributes are like The Truth is not Allah Himself but His qualities and can not be counted as God Himself because truth by itself is not a being i.e. divine being or a human being or a person because truth does not have consciousness, weight or occupy space but being or a person has consciousness weight or occupy space.

      You seem kind and intelligent person. Next time when the population census officials visit your house to count you as a member of you countrys population, insist on them counting you as 3 because of your kindness and intelligence.

      Thanks.

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    • Hebert Croft

      You said;
      But a man is not a word. To understand what “kalimatullah” means, you need taw eel or at least tafsir

      I say;
      Any tafsir that says a Word is God Himself, is like the idol worshipers who in their tafsir they ascribe stone as God Himself and it means associating other things to the Almighty God and that type of shirk is not forgiven by God and associating others besides God alone is unbiblical.

      Proof from the Bible
      “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
      “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
      “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
      “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
      “Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
      “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

      Mr. Croft, none means none else including Word, Son, Spirit etc. for they are not God and they are none and can never be God. It is blaspheme to say God is Son to someone.

      You said;
      But a man is not a word.

      I say;
      Yes, man is not a word. You see, you are back to your senses. Man is not a word, then why are you saying a man Jesus is the word itself? Do not get confuse by what the Church Fathers, or the evangelicals or even the Bible and the Quran says, but use your common sense a little bit in addition to scripture and faith.

      Do not get me wrong, we all believe in supernatural, but word is not a supernatural to us because we know what word is, and it cannot be a being and cannot be person, or God, so the word in John 1:1 might be something else but not God Himself. If it means God is with God, then Jesus becomes a lesser God like all the idol worship claim in their tafsir.

      We knew the Greeks to have God of love, Goddess of sex, God of thunder, God of this, God of that etc. and is all paganism. No one should copy the Greeks. The God of Moses is only one and alone

      Thanks.

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  4. M. Burhanuddin, you wrote : “John 1.1 is irrelevant to Jesus argument in John 10.”

    Well, you and I obviously have very different ways of reading the Bible. I certainly cannot believe that the Bible was intended to be a heap of unrelated passages to be read in isolation.

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  5. M. Williams, you wrote : “Herbert, did you know that Adam is called ‘the Son of God’ in the Bible?”

    No, I was unaware of that. Where is it ? In any case it is hardly surprising as Christ is called “the new Adam”. So I worship the new Adam and not the old, of course. Ironically, this reminds me more of the Qur’an than the Bible, reminds me of the passage where Allah orders angels to bow down before Adam …

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    • So you worship the ‘new’ Adam not the ‘old’ one? Jesus says we should worship the Lord our God – not Adam.

      The noun ‘adam’ (in Hebrew) is the masculine form of the word adamah which means “ground” or “earth”.

      Adam is called “The Son of God” in the New Testament. See Luke 3:38

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    • “Adam is called “The Son of God” in the New Testament. See Luke 3:38”

      Not quite. In Luke 3:38 Adam is called “son of God”, not “THE son of God”. There is nothing in the passage indicating a uniquely special relationship. On the contrary, it is in a sequence of “son of” where the mentioned fathers often had more than one son.

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    • ‘the son of God’ is the preferred translation of the NIV (and others).

      Either way you worship the ‘new’ Adam not the ‘old’ one? Jesus says we should worship the Lord our God – not Adam.

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  6. Herbert Croft is right; you have to read the whole book and take the whole book in context.

    Also, you have to go back to Psalm 82 and see what the whole Psalm says.

    The Trinities author wrote:
    2. The Scriptures address human recipients of God’s message as “gods.” (Psalm 82)

    Yes, but study all of Psalm 82 – it was about the arrogant unjust judges of the earth who think they are gods, the arrogant leaders, dictators, and judges – like the judges of Israel – who did not perform justice –

    “how long will you judge unjustly?
    And show partiality to the wicked?
    Vindicate the weak and fatherless
    Do justice to the afflicted and destitute
    Rescue the weak and needy;
    Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.” (Psalm 82:2-4)

    . . .

    And God says that they will die like men, like mortals
    (Psalm 82, verse 7)

    “Arise O God, judge the earth!
    For it is You who owns/ inherits/ dost possess all the nations.” (Psalm 82, verse 8)

    So, Jesus, by quoting Psalm 82; He is rebuking and mocking the Jewish leaders, Pharisees, leaders, judges, scribes, high priest, priests, etc. calling them unjust judges. the point of Psalm 82 is mockery of the unjust judges and God’s judgement to those who think they are like “gods” – with political power and doing whatever they want to. They are going to die like men and be judged by the true God.

    The author left out some of John 10:36 in his premise # 4.

    “do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, “you are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God” ?

    Jesus is saying since the word of God came to the Jewish leaders in Psalm 82 and God mockingly calls them “gods” because they think they are something; how can you say “I am blaspheming, since I really am the Son of God, the one whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world.

    “the Father sanctified the Son” = set Him apart for a purpose – in order to be the Messiah, come into the world, teach and explain who God is, and die for sins and rise from the dead.

    John 1:1-2 – In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.” He was in the beginning with God.”
    John 1:14 – the Word became flesh
    John 1:18
    “. . . the only unique God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

    It is not blasphemy to call Jesus as the Son of God, because He really is the Son of God, the eternal Word of God who became flesh. Whereas Psalm 82 is mocking arrogant humans who think they are “gods”, but they will die like men.

    Jesus rose from the dead proving He is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God; God in the flesh.

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    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      John 1:1-2 – In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.” He was in the beginning with God.”
      John 1:14 – the Word became flesh
      John 1:18
      “. . . the only unique God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

      It is not blasphemy to call Jesus as the Son of God, because He really is the Son of God, the eternal Word of God who became flesh. Whereas Psalm 82 is mocking arrogant humans who think they are “gods”, but they will die like men.

      Jesus rose from the dead proving He is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God; God in the flesh.

      I say;
      If what you wrote and I copied and pasted above is from God, consider the clear inconsistency and contradictions it.

      a. God is with God i.e. “and the Word(God) is with God”. Put your faith aside and use your intellect objectively and ask yourself why will a God is with another God and still be one God? It makes 2 Gods and it does not matter who wrote that phrase because Jesus clearly said to Israel, our God is One and not our God is with another God.

      Eternal word of God is God?

      Eternal love of God is God #2

      Eternal Mercy of God is God #3 and so on.

      but Jesus said to Israel “our God is One”

      When you start to count God like the Greeks as God of love, God of thunder, Goddess of sex, God of Sun, etc. you fall into polytheism and paganism. The God of Moses and Abraham is One God and none else according to the Bible.

      You said;
      “. . . the only unique God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

      I say;
      What you said, according to the statement I copied and pasted above is a complete blaspheme and against the Bible because “a God in the bosom of another God” cannot be anything but Greek mythology, paganism and polytheism according to Biblical verses below

      Proof from the Bible
      “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
      “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
      “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
      “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
      “Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
      “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

      Thanks.

      Like

    • You still don’t understand John 1:1

      “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

      “the Word was with God” = 2 persons in personal spiritual relationship – they spoke with one another from all eternity past, the Father and the Son in spiritual communion – as in John 17:5

      but have the same nature/ substance/essence – ذات و جوهر

      “and the Word was God” – same nature, substance, essence.

      That is why the Doctrine of the Trinity is
      One God in three persons. (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

      If the doctrine said: “One God in substance and three in substance” then it would be a contradiction. Or if it said “Three gods (estaqfr’allah ! استغفرالله ) in three persons” then it would be contradiction.

      Because “person” and “nature” are different categories, it is not a contradiction.

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    • Ken Temple

      Thanks for your explanation.

      You said;
      but have the same nature/ substance/essence – ذات و جوهر

      “and the Word was God” – same nature, substance, essence.

      That is why the Doctrine of the Trinity is
      One God in three persons. (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

      If the doctrine said: “One God in substance and three in substance” then it would be a contradiction. Or if it said “Three gods (estaqfr’allah ! استغفرالله ) in three persons” then it would be contradiction.

      Because “person” and “nature” are different categories, it is not a contradiction.

      I say;
      Is Jesus alone without the Father not a substance? how about consciousness?
      Is the Father alone without Jesus not a substance? how about consciousness?
      You do not want to worship something that is not a substance and that will be paganism like the Greek God of love, goddess of sex etc.

      The substance of Jesus cannot be the same as the substance of the Father, because Jesus alone by himself without the Father is being or a person and all beings or persons have their own substance which is unique to them alone and does not share it with anyone. You Ken, can never ever be me, no matter what. The same is true to God Almighty as the Bible said He is One, Only and Alone, no one can ever be Him(God Almighty) to share His substance. Substance is what you are and cannot be shared with another. Another substance is totally different from you and has different consciousness and will constitute different being or a person, but the Bible clearly said God is One Only and Alone. So God is One being or a person or a substance but not 2 or more.

      Furthermore, if they have the same nature, substance and essence, then Jesus Christ must be able to give us the end date and not to refer us to another person, because they existed co-eternally, If one knows and the other does not know, then the substance is different and you have 2 beings either 2 divine beings or 2 human beings or combination of both and it is clearly against the Holy Bible, and I have been quoting the verses here everyday.

      If Jesus who is the Son, in the God head had said, “I know the date, but I will not provide it now”, that will make sense, as he is sharing the substance with God and so must know the end date, but he said “no one knows, not even the Son” .

      So, the complete Jesus together with his human part and his divine part does not know the date makes him a different substance from the Father who knows everything including the date. If Jesus knew the date and said, he doesn’t, that will make him a liar and God does not lie, so there is a big problem with beings or persons sharing one substance especially God.

      Why does God has to share his substance if He is One, Only and Alone according to the Bible? and a Person/person substance is impossible to share.

      I believe in supernatural, but this is not a supernatural but an impossibility because a being who is One divine being cannot share his substance. It is just like a bachelor can’t be married at the same time. It is impossible which God Himself has made. God did not make His being into more than One and that is why He keeps repeating in the Holy Bible that He is One, Only and Alone.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Jesus as the eternal Word of God – کلمه الله – kalimat Allah – shares the same nature/substance with the Father. That is just Christian doctrine. This was established centuries before Islam started.

      Using two or more human beings to illustrate your point, does not work, because there is only One God; there is only One substance – ‘ομο-ουσιας – homo-ousias – same substance – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit from all eternity past have the same substance.

      When Jesus spoke of not knowing the day or hour of His return, He was speaking from His human nature alone, while on earth. Of course, after He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, He knows the time of His return now.

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    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Using two or more human beings to illustrate your point, does not work, because there is only One God; there is only One substance – ‘ομο-ουσιας – homo-ousias – same substance – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit from all eternity past have the same substance.

      When Jesus spoke of not knowing the day or hour of His return, He was speaking from His human nature alone, while on earth. Of course, after He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, He knows the time of His return now.

      I say;
      On earth Jesus Christ used his divine nature to raise the dead and heal people by switching his natures to and fro, so he could have switched to his divine nature to tell us the day or simple say “I know the date, but will not provide it to you now” but he said he does not know at all. That makes him a different substance from the Father. God is One, Only and Alone, so His(God’s) substance cannot be shared to anyone.

      If God is only One substance consisting of 3 Persons/persons, then Jesus alone as a Person/person is not a complete substance or not substance at all and therefore not a “being” and therefore cannot be a Person/person because all beings or persons either human or divine is his own substance.

      Why should you worship someone who is not a substance or half substance? There is nothing like half substance or shared substance in creation. A substance cannot be shared by 3 persons whether divine or humans.

      We are searching for truths and not lies or inconsistencies and contradictions from anyone so many years before Islam. It does not matter the longevity of a contradiction and it needs to be recognized and those who adhered to it must sincerely abandon it for their own good instead of being stubborn. How can 3 persons whether human or divine have one and the same substance? It is absolutely impossible.

      Allah exhorted in the Quran that, had the Quran came from human beings other than He(God), you would have found a lot contradictions in it. There is no any such crass contradiction of One being with 3 substance or consciousness, and one knows the date but the other did not know, or one will ask other why have you forsaken me? to clearly prove there cannot be substance sharing by one and only alone divine being at all.

      Thanks

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      “the Word was with God” = 2 persons in personal spiritual relationship – they spoke with one another from all eternity past, the Father and the Son in spiritual communion – as in John 17:5

      I say;
      But the Son said the Father did not speak to him about the end date, and that the Father alone knows that date. Is the Father superior and the Son Inferior? Like the God and the lesser God principles of the idol worshipers?

      This clearly shows 2 different beings, but the Bible says God is One, Only and alone being.

      If they are the same substance, why does he not know the date but the other knows? It means being either divine or human cannot share his substance especially when He is One, Only and Alone in the case of a divine being.

      Besides, when substance is being shared, the Person/person sharing it by himself cannot be a substance because he has to share his substance, so Jesus alone without the Father is not a substance and you do not want to worship something that is not a substance.

      Thanks.

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  7. Luke 3:38 – “the one of/from Adam, the one from/of God” is the last in the string of the human genealogy from Mary – from Nathan, from David, to show Jesus’ human nature is from Mary and Adam.

    The phrase in Luke 3:38 does not have the word “son”, υἱός (whee-os). It is a deliberately open Greek phrase in this genealogy, in order to give room for “son in law”, “grand-son”, “son by creation”, etc.

    23 Καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν Ἰησοῦς ἀρχόμενος ὡσεὶ ἐτῶν τριάκοντα, ὢν υἱός, ὡς ἐνομίζετο, Ἰωσὴφ τοῦ Ἠλὶ

    “Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,” of Heli [meaning Joseph was son in law of Heli, who was Mary’s father]

    All the rest of the Geneology does not have “son” (‘uios), but “tou” / του = “the one of” or “the one from”

    24 τοῦ Μαθθὰτ τοῦ Λευὶ τοῦ Μελχὶ τοῦ Ἰανναὶ τοῦ Ἰωσὴφ

    25 τοῦ Ματταθίου τοῦ Ἀμὼς τοῦ Ναοὺμ τοῦ Ἑσλὶ τοῦ Ναγγαὶ

    26 τοῦ Μάαθ τοῦ Ματταθίου τοῦ Σεμεῒν τοῦ Ἰωσὴχ τοῦ Ἰωδὰ

    27 τοῦ Ἰωανὰν τοῦ Ῥησὰ τοῦ Ζοροβαβὲλ τοῦ Σαλαθιὴλ τοῦ Νηρὶ

    28 τοῦ Μελχὶ τοῦ Ἀδδὶ τοῦ Κωσὰμ τοῦ Ἐλμαδὰμ τοῦ Ἢρ

    29 τοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ Ἐλιέζερ τοῦ Ἰωρὶμ τοῦ Μαθθὰτ τοῦ Λευὶ

    30 τοῦ Συμεὼν τοῦ Ἰούδα τοῦ Ἰωσὴφ τοῦ Ἰωνὰμ τοῦ Ἐλιακὶμ

    31 τοῦ Μελεὰ τοῦ Μεννὰ τοῦ Ματταθὰ τοῦ Ναθὰμ τοῦ Δαυὶδ

    τοῦ Ναθὰμ τοῦ Δαυὶδ

    “of Nathan, of David” (to disquish between Joseph’s royal line from Solomon and David in Matthew chapter 1)

    32 τοῦ Ἰεσσαὶ τοῦ Ἰωβὴλ τοῦ Βόος τοῦ Σαλὰ τοῦ Ναασσὼν

    33 τοῦ Ἀμιναδὰβ τοῦ Ἀδμὶν τοῦ Ἀρνὶ τοῦ Ἑσρὼμ τοῦ Φαρὲς τοῦ Ἰούδα

    34 τοῦ Ἰακὼβ τοῦ Ἰσαὰκ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ τοῦ Θάρα τοῦ Ναχὼρ

    35 τοῦ Σεροὺχ τοῦ Ῥαγαὺ τοῦ Φάλεκ τοῦ Ἔβερ τοῦ Σαλὰ

    36 τοῦ Καϊνὰμ τοῦ Ἀρφαξὰδ τοῦ Σὴμ τοῦ Νῶε τοῦ Λάμεχ

    37 τοῦ Μαθουσαλὰ τοῦ Ἑνὼχ τοῦ Ἰάρετ τοῦ Μαλελεὴλ τοῦ Καϊνὰμ

    38 τοῦ Ἐνὼς τοῦ Σὴθ τοῦ Ἀδὰμ τοῦ θεοῦ.

    “τοῦ Ἀδὰμ τοῦ θεοu” = the one of/from Adam, the one of/from God”

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    • “τοῦ Ἀδὰμ τοῦ θεοu” = the one of/from Adam, the one of/from God”

      and the NIV correctly translates this as ‘son of God’ in the context.

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    • But Adam is the created son of God; the Greek construction is open so that it can cover “son in law”, “grandson”, “son by creation”, etc.

      Joseph was the son in law of Heli, who was Mary’s father.

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    • and Jesus was the created son of God just like Adam. That is what Luke is teaching.

      Ken you did not read my last comment correctly. I referred to Matthew’s genealogy. Why oh why does Matthew bother to mention the male genealogy of Jesus from Abraham to Jesus’ non-existent father?

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    • Paul, that is an easy one. He includes it in order to show that Jesus is legally Joseph’s son, and therefore legally his heir:

      “When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but knew her not until she had borne a son; and HE called his name Jesus.” Matthew 1:24-25

      Joseph naming the child was significant in showing that the former had taken Jesus to be his son, albeit adoptively. As Messianic Jewish scholar Dr. David H. Stern notes:

      Yosef’s behavior shows that he accepted Yeshua as his son. According to the Mishna, “If one say, ‘This is my son,’ he is to be believed” (Bava Batra 8:6). The Gemara explains that he is believed “as regards THE RIGHT OF INHERITANCE” (Bava Batra 134a). Thus Yeshua, as a legally acknowledged son, is entitled to inherit the throne of King David from Yosef, a descendant of David (v. 8). (This point is made in Philip Goble, How to Point to Yeshua in Your Rabbi’s Bible, New York: Artists for Israel, 1986.) (Dr. David Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary [Clarksville, Maryland; Jewish New Testament Publications, 1996], p. 8)

      Thus, Jesus, according to the Holy Scriptures, is an actual biological descendant of David from his mother’s side and a legal descendant of Solomon through his legal father’s side.

      BTW, its good to see you again Paul. All this time I thought you had disappeared until Yahya brought it to my attention that your blog has been online, but under a different URL.

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  8. The Geneology of Jesus in Matthew 1 is from Joseph’s line, the royal line of the Messiah from David and Solomon.

    The Geneology of Jesus in Luke 3 is through Mary’s line (David and Nathan, another son of David), and goes all the way back to Adam, the first human, showing Jesus is fully human, and got His human nature from Mary, who was a virgin.

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    • the genealogy in Matthew is utterly pointless as Jesus had no human father.

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    • Joseph adopted Jesus as his son, and Joseph was from the royal Messianic line of Solomon and David. “being supposed the son of Joseph”

      Matthew shows Jesus fulfilled the Abrahamic and David covenants – “the son of David, the son of Abraham”; and His Deity – “Immanuel” = God with us – matthew 1:21-23 and worthy of worship – Matthew 2 – the Magi worship Him as God.

      “Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,” of Heli [meaning Joseph was son in law of Heli, who was Mary’s father]

      Mary was from the line of David through Nathan, another son of David.

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    • Matthew’s genealogy is exclusively the male line of descent from Abraham to Jesus. But the silly thing about Matthew’s genealogy is that Jesus was not descended from any man in the male line he so laboriously recites.

      You make a blunder by quoting from Luke’s gospel (not Matthew) which is not at issue here.

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    • It was no blunder. It shows the harmony of Matthew and Luke. Jesus is the eternal Son of God.
      Joseph adopted Jesus, and Joseph was from David and Solomon’s line. (geneology in Matthew)

      Jesus got His human nature from Mary, and Luke gives us Mary’s line from David through Nathan.

      Jesus is Son of God, Son of Abraham, Son of David, and Al Masih. (The Messiah)

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    • poor apologetics. You just dont get it do you?

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    • Mathew’s genealogy goes through Jeconias,who is cursed by God and his offspring is disqualified from becoming a messiah ever.

      Luke’s line says nothing about being Mary’s line, this argument is pure speculation and a desperate attempt to harmonize the contradictory genealogies.

      The biblical Jesus is actually disqualified from being the Messiah by biblical standards.

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    • well said, you are correct on all counts Burhanuddin1.

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    • “Mathew’s genealogy goes through Jeconias, who is cursed by God and his offspring is disqualified from becoming a messiah ever.”

      It should be mentioned that it seems that God eventually lifted the curse. We see at the end of Jeremiah that the Babylonian king Evil-merodach (Amel-Marduk) showed favor to Jehoiachin (i.e., Jeconias):

      “Now it came about in the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-fifth of the month, that Evil-merodach king of Babylon, in the first year of his reign, showed favor to Jehoiachin king of Judah and brought him out of prison. Then he spoke kindly to him and set his throne above the thrones of the kings who were with him in Babylon. So Jehoiachin changed his prison clothes, and had his meals in the king’s presence regularly all the days of his life. For his allowance, a regular allowance was given him by the king of Babylon, a daily portion all the days of his life until the day of his death.” (Jeremiah 52:31-34)

      In fact, God promised Jehoiachin’s grandson Zerubbabel that he would become a “signet ring”:

      “Then the word of the LORD came a second time to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, “Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah, saying, ‘I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and their riders, and the horses and their riders will go down, everyone by the sword of another.’ ‘On that day,’ declares the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, My servant,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you,’” declares the LORD of hosts.”

      This is especially interesting in light of Jeremiah 22:24, where God says that even though Jehoiachin “were a signet ring on My right hand, yet I would pull you off”.

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    • God explicitly cursed Jeconia. Where did God explicitly change his mind?

      Zerubbabel was never made king.

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    • The skeptics are wrong because Zerubabbel rebuilt the temple (Zechariah 4:9) ; and in Zechariah 3:8-9 Joshua the high priest and his friends are symbols of the future “Branch” צמח – who will remove iniquity in the future. Symbols of the future Messiah who would be both priest and king.

      Both Joshua as high priest and Zerubabbel as governor are symbols of the future Messiah, who would be the priest-King.

      Zechariah 3:8 says that they are symbols.

      Points to their roles in rebuilding the post-exilic temple, and to the future “Branch” / “Shoot” / “stem” – another word for “branch” is used in Isaiah 11:1 – נצר = Nezer ( “Nazarene” – lowly, despised) (this is what Matthew 2:23 is referring to – notice the plural, “through the prophets” – notice the plural, prophets – points to a combination of many prophesies of the despised “Branch”, “shoot”, “stem” – Isaiah 11:1, Zech. 3:8; Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Isaiah 53:1-3, Isaiah 4:2.

      Zechariah 6:12-15 points to Zerubbabel and Joshua the high priest rebuilding the post-exilic temple, and it points to the Lord Jesus who would build the church – Ephesians 2:19-21.

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    • “God explicitly cursed Jeconia. Where did God explicitly change his mind?”
      Again, notice the strong parallel between Jeremiah 22:24 and Haggai 22:23. But can you please tell me where it is explicitly said that Zerubbabel didn’t become king because of the curse put on Jehoiachin?

      In fact, it should be noted that accoring to some the curse was already lifted during Jehoiachin’s life. Notice that according to God he “will not prosper in his days”, but in Jeremiah 52:31-34 he is brought out of prison, Evil-merodach “set his throne above the thrones of the kings who were with him in Babylon”, he gets new clothes and a regular allowance and is allowed to eat in the king’s presence. The Jewish Encyclopedia (which can hardly be accused of Christian bias) notes that in Rabbinical literature:

      “Jehoiachin’s sad experiences changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii. 30; Pesiḳ., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b); he even became the ancestor of the Messiah (Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140]). It was especially his firmness in fulfilling the Law that restored him to God’s favor. He was kept by Nebuchadnezzar in solitary confinement, and as he was therefore separated from his wife, the Sanhedrin, which had been expelled with him to Babylon, feared that at the death of this queen the house of David would become extinct.” (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8560-jehoiachin)

      Notice that the article says that Jehoiachin “even became the ancestor of the Messiah”.

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    • So you have no explicit scriptural evidence that God changed his mind and lifted the curse.

      If the decree was revoked, Zerubbabel had to become king. But he didn’t.

      As you rely on rabbinical opinion here, are you consistent and share the overall rabbinical opinion Jesus was not the Messiah?

      Why does Jesus have to come back in order to sit on the throne of David eventually? There is nothing in the OT about the Messiah coming twice.

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    • “It was especially his firmness in fulfilling the Law that restored him to God’s favor.”

      Do you agree on this point? This refutes St. Paul’s and much of Christian theology today.

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    • Mark is right. The second passage is from Haggai 2:20-23 –

      “Then the word of the LORD came a second time to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, “Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah, saying, ‘I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and their riders, and the horses and their riders will go down, everyone by the sword of another.’ ‘On that day,’ declares the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, My servant,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you,’” declares the LORD of hosts.”

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    • Jeremiah 22:30 “Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.”

      Zerubbabel was never made king. He never sat on the throne of David. Jesus – a man of Jeconiah’s seed – is excluded from kingship, he cannot be “the Messiah” according to biblical standards. 😦

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    • Ken, thanks for mentioning where the second passage can be found. Unfortunately I forgot to include that in my comment.

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  9. M. Burhanuddin, you wrote : “Jeremiah 22:30 Zerubbabel was never made king. He never sat on the throne of David. Jesus – a man of Jeconiah’s seed – is excluded from kingship, he cannot be “the Messiah” according to biblical standards.”

    By your logic, the Davidic legitimate dinasty became extinct at the moment of that curse, making the prophecy of the coming a Davidic Messiah impossible to be fulfilled ever after.
    You failed to notice the words, “in his time”.
    The curse in Jerehiam 22:30 applies only in his (Jeconiah’s) time. Which is completely consistent with ancient history : the kingdom of Judah was restored after the babylonian exile.

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    • “… for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.”

      “By your logic, the Davidic legitimate dinasty became extinct at the moment of that curse, making the prophecy of the coming a Davidic Messiah impossible to be fulfilled ever after.” Nope, only a Davidic Messiah from the line of Jeconiah, including Jesus. 😦

      “the kingdom of Judah was restored after the babylonian exile.” Through the line of Jeconiah?

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  10. “Through the line of Jeconiah?”
    Indeed, as explained in the verses quoted in the answers by Ken and Mark above. Did you read them ?

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    • What descendant of Jeconiah sat on the throne of David?

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    • What Davidic person not from the line of Jaconiah (as you say) sat on the throne of David ?

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    • I’m not saying that. The Bible says any descendant of Jeconiah is excluded from kingship – that includes Jesus (according to the Bible). Therefore Jesus is disqualified as Messiah according to the Bible.

      What descendant of Jeconiah sat on the throne of David?

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  11. “So you have no explicit scriptural evidence that God changed his mind and lifted the curse.”
    I think the parallel between Jeremiah 22:24 and Haggai 22:23 is clear enough. But if you require “explicit scriptural evidence”, may I know where the explicit evidence is that Zerubbabel didn’t become king because of the curse put on Jehoiachin?

    “As you rely on rabbinical opinion here, are you consistent and share the overall rabbinical opinion Jesus was not the Messiah?”
    I am not relying on “rabbinical opinion here”, but simply pointing out that people outside of Christianity also think that Jeremiah 52:31-34 suggests the curse was lifted. But if you want people to be consistent, do you agree with the metaphysical naturalism of the Reasonable Doubts podcast, since you posted a Youtube video from them?

    “Why does Jesus have to come back in order to sit on the throne of David eventually? There is nothing in the OT about the Messiah coming twice.”
    Completely, utterly irrelevant to this discussion. But if you want to ask irrelevant questions, where in the Old Testament or the New Testament is Muhammad prophesied?

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  12. Jesus Al Masih came from David’s line through Nathan to Mary. He got His human nature through Mary. Go back and look at above in Luke 3.

    Since Jesus was born of a virgin, the literal fulfillment against Jeconiah was fulfilled, but his restoration to have children and on down to Joseph shows the royal line that Jesus was adopted under when Joseph adopted Him as his son, but not his literal son, since Jesus was born of the virgin Mary.

    Zerubbabel and Joshua the high priest were symbols of the Branch to come. (see above, from Zechariah and Haggai and Jeremiah and Isaiah) Jesus is the Messianic Branch, fullfilling all the prophesies.

    Jesus is the son of David, fullfilling the Davidic covenant, by being born of a virgin, Mary, from Nathan, son of David.

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    • Mathew’s genealogy goes through Jeconias,who is cursed by God and his offspring is disqualified from becoming a messiah ever.

      Luke’s line says nothing about being Mary’s line, this argument is pure speculation and a desperate attempt to harmonize the contradictory genealogies.

      The biblical Jesus is actually disqualified from being the Messiah by biblical standards.

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    • Jesus couldn’t be the Messiah because Luke shows Nathan is an ancestor of Jesus.

      Nathan was excluded from any claim to the throne of David because his brother, Solomon, was chosen to head the Davidic line instead: 1 CHRON. 29:1 (“Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen….”), 1 CHRON. 28:5 (“And of all my sons, for the Lord hath given me many sons, he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the Kingdom of the Lord over Israel”), and 1 CHRON. 29:24 (“And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of King David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king”).

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    • “Jesus is the Messianic Branch, fullfilling all the prophesies.” Nope. Biblical Jesus couldn’t be the biblical Messiah because he failed to bring the Messianic Age – according to the Bible.

      He fails to fulfill clear prophecies concerning explicit events that must accompany the Messiah’s arrival like

      the gathering of the ten tribes under a Davidic king (Ezek. 37:21-22)
      the battle between Gog and Magog (Ezek. 38 and 39)
      the cleaving of the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4)
      the issuing of living water from the site of the temple in Jerusalem (Ezek. 47:1)
      the end of suffering (Isa. 65:19)
      the resurrection of the dead (Isa. 26:19, Dan. 12:2)

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    • M. Burhanuddin, you’re writing a lot about the OT and the Messiah these days…

      How do you know which passages are “Messianic” (about the Messiah in person or the Messianic age) and which ones aren’t ?

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    • It’s your “Bible”, so you should know

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    • “It’s your “Bible”, so you should know”
      The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused. So why don’t you answer the question :

      How do you know which passages are “Messianic” (about the Messiah in person or the Messianic age) and which ones aren’t ?

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    • You just contradicted Islam and the Qur’an, because they state that Jesus is the Messiah – Al Masih. المسیح

      many times the Qur’an says that. المسیح Al Masih

      The NT teaches that the first coming of Al Masih was to be a suffering servant, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. (Isaiah 53, John 1:29, Mark 10:45) virgin born, God in the flesh – Isaiah 7:14; 9:6-7; Micah 5:2.

      The things you mention are at His second coming.

      “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!! Was it not necessary for the Messiah to suffer these things and then to enter into His glory?” Luke 24:25-27

      The way I and others who believe in God and His ability to do miracles and inspire Scriptures harmonize the geneologies makes perfect sense in light of the virgin birth and the prophesy about Jeconiah.

      Since you also are obligated to believe in the virgin birth (Surah 3:42-48; 19:19-21)

      and since the Qur’an calls Jesus Al Masih many times;
      and since the Qur’an commands that you beleive in the Injeel;
      and since the Qur’an never says the text of the Injeel or Torah was changed (Surah 5:47; 5:68; 10:94; 2:136; 29:46; 3:3-4);
      and since the Qur’an says “no one can change the words of Allah” (Surah 18:27; 6:34; 6:116; 10:65)

      then you are obligated to also harmonize them that way, since it is the only way for all these truths to be consistent at the time.

      The Greek construction of the geneology in Luke is clear that it is showing Mary’s line.

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    • This is biblical problem. The biblical Jesus just doesn’t fit the biblical bill.

      Luke’s line says nothing about being Mary’s line, this argument is pure speculation and a desperate attempt to harmonize the contradictory genealogies.

      There is absolutely nothing in the OT alluding to an alleged “Second Coming.” As far as the OT is concerned, there is one messiah and that’s all, and he is coming once and that’s it.

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    • So why is Jesus Al-Masih coming back according to Islam?

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    • To confirm Islam

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    • Interesting… Didn’t Muhammad already do that almost 1400 years ago? From an Islamic perspective there really is no need for Jesus to come back since the Quran should be enough already, on top of that it is also believed that another person known as the Al-Mahdi shall also appear in the last times. If the Al-Mahdi will appear and if Jesus will be inferior to him, I really don’t see why Jesus is coming back at all.
      From a Biblical perspective however, I can understand.

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    • as an aside it is interesting to note that in the Bible Jesus (and the early church) expected the End to happen very soon, within the generation of people then living.

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    • It depends on how you interpret the end times. Jesus predicted many things that would happen after he goes such as famine, earthquakes and wars. These have occurred in every century before and after Jesus. In that light you could interpret the “last days” as being something that has been ongoing since Jesus’ time, and as he states in Matthew 24:8, “All these are the beginning of birth pains.”
      There are still many things that Jesus mentioned that have not occurred yet, on top of that, in the same passage he goes on to say that no one knows the day or hour of when the end will truly come.

      If Jesus’ disciples thought he would return in their generation it is understandable, they interpreted his words differently just as we are doing now. In the epistles we find that they do in fact come to terms with this, such as in 2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
      If God is delaying the last hour, it is because He is patient with us and does not want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9). Paul also explains this, in Thessalonians I believe, but not too sure.

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    • 1) Jesus predicts the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners. Matthew 23:36

      2) Jesus says the gospel will be preached to all nations “and then shall the end come”. According to Paul the gospel has been preached to everyone (Rom.10:18) yet the end hasn’t come. Matthew 24:14

      3) Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. Matthew 26:64

      4) Peter says that their strange behavior (speaking in tongues, etc.) was to be expected since they were living in “the last days.” Acts 2:17. 2000 years later…

      5) Paul believed that the end of the world was coming soon. “The day is at hand.” Romans 13:11-12
      Paul believed that Jesus would return and defeat Satan “shortly” — within his own lifetime. Romans 16:20

      6) Paul tells the Corinthians to be good until “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (He expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes.) 1 Corinthians 1:7-8

      7) Paul expects the end to come soon: “The time is short.” So there’s no time for sex or marriage, since the world will be ending soon. 1 Corinthians 7:29

      8) James thought that Jesus would return soon. See James 5:8

      9) 1 John: John thinks he is living in “the last times.” He “knows” this because he sees so many antichrists around. 2:18, 4:3

      John warns his followers to get ready because Jesus is coming soon. 2:28

      John expects to live to see Jesus return. 3:2

      10) Book of Revelation: “Behold, I come quickly.” 22:7, 12, 20

      btw 2 Peter is a fake.

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    • Marvin Henry

      You said;
      Interesting… Didn’t Muhammad already do that almost 1400 years ago? From an Islamic perspective there really is no need for Jesus to come back since the Quran should be enough already, on top of that it is also believed that another person known as the Al-Mahdi shall also appear in the last times. If the Al-Mahdi will appear and if Jesus will be inferior to him, I really don’t see why Jesus is coming back at all.
      From a Biblical perspective however, I can understand

      I say;

      Thanks.

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    • No; there is no Biblical problem. It is the Qur’an’s understanding that is the problem.

      Joseph adopting Jesus as his human son puts Jesus in the royal line, at the same time preserving the prophesy about Jeconiah and also at the same time, the virgin birth and coming from the line of David fulfills those prophesies that Messiah is from the line of David.

      Since the disciples of Jesus became victorius and uppermost and manifest (Surah 61:14; and Surah 3:55 – uppermost until the day of resurrection) and you must believe what the Qur’an says, and it was their interpretation of the OT that became manifest and uppermost, and was right and the NT interpretation proved to be the proper interpretation – that there are 2 comings and the first one was suffering and death, and the second one is in kingly power and judgement, then you are obligated to believe the NT – the true Injeel.

      Your argument is defeated, since the Qur’an affirms that you and we must judge according to what is written in the Injeel. Surah 5:47 – “let the people of the gospel judge according to what is revealed in it” (in the Gospel itself)

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    • You don’t have the Injeel. You have a collection of books riddled with problems. One of them: the biblical Jesus just doesn’t fit the biblical bill of being “the Messiah”

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    • No; we have the Injeel and had it for 500 years before Islam started. That alone proves the Qur’an and Islam are wrong. Muhammad and the Arabs did not know what they were saying when they affirmed the Injeel. The only true Injeel was the message of the 4 gospels – the birth, life, teachings, miracles, death, resurrection, ascension – of Jesus Al Masih is “the Injeel” ( 1 Cor. 15, Romans 1, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, etc. ) they were all written between 45 AD – 96 AD, 500 years before Islam started in 610 AD. We have so many copies, especially from 200s, 300s, 400s, 500s, 600s, that prove you are wrong and the Injeel was never lost or corrupted.

      “No one can change the words of Allah” – Surah 18:27

      “let the people of the gospel judge by what God has revealed therein” Surah 5:47

      “If you have any doubts about what we are revealing to you, go and ask the people of the book, who have been reading the previous revelations.” Surah 10:94

      If you believe the Injeel was lost or corrupted, you go against the Qur’an, and you are speaking against it, since it affirms the previous books.

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    • The injeel is the revelation given to Isa (as). You don’t have that. You have different “seera” about Jesus at best. And later speculations and commentaries on this.

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    • We don’t have the injeel? You don’t know your own scripture well enough:
      Surah 3:3 He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

      19:30 [Jesus] said, “Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

      5:46-48 And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient. And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture…

      5:68 Say, “O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.”

      7:157 Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel

      57:27 Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel.

      Pay close attention to Surah 7:157 because it explicitly states that Muhammad should be found in the Torah and Gospel of the Jews and Christians present in Muhammad’s time. According to that verse, the Torah and Injeel mentioned in the Quran were in the hands of Jews and Christians respectively.

      So the question is where in the Quran does it say that the Torah or the Injeel are lost texts? Where does it also say that we should not read those scriptures because they are corrupted/lost? You can argue that some verses in the Quran mention biblical corruption, which I’d say there are different ways of understanding those passages, but more importantly, even with the mention of some sort of corruption no where does the Quran tell Jews or Christians to abandon their texts. Instead the Quran confirms them as texts filled with wisdom and truth, says that we should believe in them all and continue to live and judge according to those texts, alongside the Quran too.

      Like

    • Paul, these articles fail to really explain anything. Most of the time they’re trying to speak for God as though they know exactly what God was trying to say.
      These articles are empty rebuttals, just seems like a very desperate attempt to show that the Quran does not tell Jews and Christians to continue reading their scriptures since they’re “entirely” corrupted… What nonsense.

      Do you really believe corrupted scriptures would be able to inspire and change the lives of billions of people throughout the centuries? That would really make me question Allah’s power and sovereignty

      Like

    • Marvin you clearly failed to read any of the articles, your response is just silly. Go and be a troll somewhere else.

      Like

    • You have the four canonical gospels. You have Paul’s gospel, which he has to defend against other contemporary gospels. The proof is in your scripture. To say you have the “injeel” is just speculation and following conjecture. You probably have remnants of Isa’s (as) injeel in the red of a red letter Bible.
      But that’s only speculation too.

      Like

    • The gospel preached by Paul has many fundamental differences to the gospel preached by Jesus. They are two different religions.

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    • No; they are one and the same message.

      “Repent and believe in the gospel” Mark 1:15

      “. . . the Son of Man came to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45

      “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.” 1 Timothy 2:5-6

      26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”

      “. . . for My sake and the gospel’s sake.” Mark 10:29

      32 They were on the road going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking on ahead of them; and they were amazed, and those who followed were fearful. And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, 33 saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. 34 They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”
      Mark 10:32-34

      “This is the blood of the covenant which is poured out for many.” Mark 14:24

      60 The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”

      61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

      62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

      63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest *said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?

      64 You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

      Mark 14:60-64

      “they crucified Him” – Mark 15:24, 25

      “truly this man was the Son of God!” Mark 15:39

      ” . . . laid Him in a tomb . . . and rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.” Mark 15:46

      And he said to them, “Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him.
      Mark 16:6

      Jesus Al Masih was crucified, died, buried in a tomb, and rose from the dead.

      Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.
      Luke 24:44-48

      “the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and on the third day He rose from the dead, according to the Scriptures.”
      I Corinthians 15:1-4

      Like

    • “It is the Qur’an’s understanding that is the problem.”
      “the Qur’an affirms that you and we must judge according to what is written in the Injeel. Surah 5:47”

      Obviously your putting “faith” before understanding is the problem.

      Like

    • Even if it was Mary’s line (there is no evidence for it): Jesus couldn’t be the Messiah because Luke shows Nathan is an ancestor of Jesus.

      Nathan was excluded from any claim to the throne of David because his brother, Solomon, was chosen to head the Davidic line instead: 1 CHRON. 29:1 (“Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen….”), 1 CHRON. 28:5 (“And of all my sons, for the Lord hath given me many sons, he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the Kingdom of the Lord over Israel”), and 1 CHRON. 29:24 (“And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of King David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king”).

      Like

  13. What book was Allah referring to when he told Muhammad and the Arabs to go and refer to the previous books that were between their hands بین یدیه (Arabic expression used in the Qur’an about previous scriptures – meaning “what is available at that time”) at that time in 610-632 AD ??

    Surah 3:3-4
    Surah 2:136
    Surah 5:47
    Surah 5:68
    Surah 10:94
    Surah 29:46

    All confirm the previous Scriptures. We have lots of manuscripts confirming them. You are refuted.

    Like

    • Ken I’m confused. If the Quran simply endorses the contents of the 4 gospels why does it unequivocally deny what is so clearly taught in them – namely the crucifiction of Jesus?

      Like

    • Because Muhammad was ignorant of what the Injeel actually taught. Even the Qur’an asserts the he was illiterate and uneducated. Muhammad was smart, he just did not have formal book learning nor formal education. He just “heard” about the “Evangel” (Greek, which got corrupted into his ears into the Arabic, “Injeel”. see similarity in sound with Evanjel or Euanjel.), the book of Jesus, miracles, that He is Al Masih, and son of Mary, etc. and just assumed that it agreed with him. Warqa Bin Naufal and Bahira, and others who claimed to be Christians and also nominal Christian groups outside of Arabia/Hejaz orally told him about some of those things, but Muhammad could not read or write, even your Qur’an says.

      Even the Nestorians, Monophysites, Arians, in areas of today’s Jordan, Syria, Yeman (Najran), S. Iraq, etc. believed Jesus was crucified, if he got some of his information from them also. They also believed Jesus was the Son of God, though they defined that differently.

      It was Gnostics and Docetics, who did not believe that Jesus was physically crucified, that Muhammad got that idea from, namely Basilides, whom Irenaeus mentions. Interesting that some of what the Qur’an has about Jesus was also from Gnostic gospels. The connection is clear. Gnosticism is against the worldview of Islam though, since Gnosticism also taught matter was evil, some groups forbid marriage and sex and meat, etc. and most all Gnostics beleived the creator of matter was an evil Demi-urge lower “god” who was not the good Father God. So, to follow Gnostics on any belief is inconsistent with Islam.

      Like

    • ‘Because Muhammad was ignorant of what the Injeel actually taught.’

      I do not find that remotely credible. He knew enough of Christianity to know it taught Jesus was crucified, which the Quran rejects. He apparently got influenced by all theses christian groups but never knew the Bible taught the crucifiction?

      Like

    • Surah 7:157 says Muhammad was unlettered, illiterate – not formally educated, (though he was very smart in his leadership, political, and military skills.)

      He did not read the previous books, he only heard the OT and Midrash and Talmud orally (many of the details in the Qur’an come from other Jewish books like the Talmud, Midrash, etc.)

      And the details of the Gnostic gospels came into the Qur’an also. (Jesus speaking from cradle and making clay birds and breathing into them and flying away – from Gnostic gospels)

      And the story of the seven sleepers in the cave in Ephesus is from 3rd century legend.

      The fact that “Evangel” from Byzantine Greek got corrupted to “Injeel” in Arabic shows that he heard things and then they got confused and garbled into the Qur’an.

      Also, the only groups that denied the crucifixion was Gnostic and Docetic groups.

      The other groups in the encirclement around the Hijaz were Monophysite, Nestorian, etc. and they all believed that Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead.

      It is obvious that Muhammad was ignorant of the NT, the Injeel, because the Qur’an only gives information that can be gotten by hearing things, and the more detailed stuff is from the Gnostics.

      Like

    • There are no quotes in the Qur’an from the New Testament, because Muhammad was ignorant of it; and had heretics and very nominal Christians in his hearing on the caravan trips to Syria, etc.

      He just heard that He was Al Masih, virgin born, did miracles, was sinless, etc.

      Unfortunately, the early church did not translate the NT into Arabic until the late 800s – 900s AD – it was too late then.

      The early church had “left their first love” (Revelation 2:4-5) and did not reach out to the Arabs with the gospel or in evangelism, discipleship, teaching.

      All the Arabs could see was the icons and statues of Mary and baby Jesus and they got the wrong impressiong of what Christians meant by “Son of God” and “The Mother of the God” (from council of Ephesus in 431 AD onward) and the emphasis on Mary lead Muslims to think God had sex with Mary. (Estaqfr’ Allah ! استغفرالله – “I seek the forgiveness of Allah!”) – Surah 6:101; 19:88-92; 112; 5:72-75; 5:116

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      There are no quotes in the Qur’an from the New Testament, because Muhammad was ignorant of it; and had heretics and very nominal Christians in his hearing on the caravan trips to Syria, etc.

      He just heard that He was Al Masih, virgin born, did miracles, was sinless, etc.

      I say;
      The Holy Quran has got a lot of stories in it. Let say the story of Moses alone. It is very long that requires the writer to have studied or heard it from someone not in only one or two or three meeting on a caravan trip to Syria or from the Arab Christians of Arabia.

      No one Arab Christian or a Jew came forward during prophets Mohammed’s time to claim that he saw him(prophet Mohammed) studying or listening the story of Judaism or Christianity from anyone.

      Mind you, during the Prophets Mohammed’s time the Jews and the Christians categorically said they knew what Mohammed was saying but no one from any Christian or Jew from that time and now said he had seen prophet Mohammed hearing the story of Noah, Jesus, Abraham, Mary from anyone. The proof is not just there.

      Mr. Ken what you Christians, especially Dr. James White are doing is just an assumption that the prophet of Islam might have heard his stories from Christians and Jews but you do not have a proof. The stories of the Quran no matter how inaccurate it might be from your perspective, needs some studying and a long listening from the Christians and the Jews and that time that would have triggered someone to catch Mohammed listening to some Christian or Jew and studying from them and come out public to say where he saw the prophet hearing, studying or listening to some Christian or Jew at that time and blame the prophet of God.

      Before prophet Mohammed became a prophet, he is called the trustworthy and all the Arabs trusted him and bring their belongings for him to keep for them and when they come back for their belongings, they will get everything intact. They have much trust in him.

      When he became prophets and started to preach to them what he had heard from God, all of a sudden, the trustworthy person and the truth person they know became a liar to them. They publicly called him a liar, and the Jews say publicly they do not believe his teachings and his God and his stories is from them but none of them said, they have seen him copying, studying, or hearing his story from them. The proof is not there.

      Now, if I want to listen to someone, I will just google, youtube or buy book to learn and listen about the person, but during our prophets time, no book, google or internet, so his stories deserved a long time hearing, listening or studying from someone and that proof insn’t there from anyone.

      So, Mr. Ken stop speculation and writing your own stories, give us proof that someone has seen prophet Mohammed hearing to story of Jesus from a Christian or a Jew on his encounter with them.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      How about Embryology in the Quran? Apologetic Jay Smith and many Christians blamed the prophet of Islam from copying it from a Greek philosopher without any proof. Who has seen the prophet copying it from a Greek philosopher? Does our prophet know Greek? Even he is not literate in his own Arabic language how can he be literate in Greek philosophy? to write a paper on Greek philosophy.

      How about the story of pharaoh, the Bible said it is pharaoh throughout the Egyptian dynasties, but the Quran corrects it to refer to a ruler of Egypt as King but not Pharaoh in certain dynasties.

      The Bible did not mention the preservation of the body of pharaoh at the time of Moses, but the Quran added the preservation of the body of pharaoh who drowned at the time of Moses.

      Where did the prophet got all this additional information from? From the Jews and Christians? who do not have it in their Bible?

      All the bodies of the pharaohs discovered are not recognizable and the one that the Quran predicts, and did he got this information from a Greek philosopher? Where is the proof.

      Thanks

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      correction

      My last paragraph should have read; All the bodies of the pharaohs discovered were not recognizable except the one that the Quran predicts and where did he got this information from? a Greek philosopher? a Christian or a Jew who do not have it in their Bible? Where is the proof?

      Yes, God Almighty has sent down previous scriptures and He had to confirm that, it is indeed from Him and He also mentioned the corruptions in the previous scriptures because those are not the final ones. He also promised in the Quran to prevent His last message from corruption because it is the last one.

      Microsoft corporation has stop the updates of the last windows xp service pack 3 because that was the last of the updates of that windows operating system. Microsoft use to allow for patches, hot fixes and update to the windows xp because it was not final.

      Now, no one can update the final of windows xp service pack 3 because it is the final and does not need any update.

      God Almighty is the sole proprietor to keep updating his messages as He deems fit, but not human beings like Luke, John, Mathew and Mark.

      So, when God Almighty confirms the scriptures of the past, He does not mean John, Mark, Mathew, or Luke but the one given to Prophet Jesus himself.

      So, stop saying we knew the scriptures that the Quran is referring and it is Mark, Mathew, Luke and John. No that is not what the Quran is referring.

      You Ken and Dr. James White do not know the Christian scriptures during prophet Mohammed’s time because the Catholics has so many books than the protestants and the Ethiopian orthodox has different books and King James developed his own version and so on and so forth. So which one do you think the Quran is referring? The original message from God to those who knew some of it at that time.

      Some Jews recognized the prophet of Islam based on their scriptures at that time and converted to Islam and others stubbornly did not convert. Today, some Jews recognize prophet Mohammed as a prophet of God, but it is not in their tradition to covert to any religion.

      proof 1

      proof 2

      proof 3
      I have more proof and you can find them on youtube

      It proves Mohammed is the prophet of God who was recognized by the Jews and Christians based on some of their uncorrupted scripture at his time, but not Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • The first Jewish man in the first video was just saying “from a Muslim point of view” – he was not admitting all the prophets were Muslims, he was saying that is what Muslims believe. No proof at all.

      Surah 7:157- yes, it claims that Muhammad is in the Torah and the Gospel but he is not in there at all.

      About Moses and the OT in the Qur’an – there were a lot more Jews in Medina and they got those stories from the Jews and not Christians. A lot of stuff is directly from the Talmud, Midrash

      But the NT was not available to Muhammad and the Arabs, therefore, very little similarily. Only the phrases Al Masih, son of Mary, Injeel, Jesus did miracles, was sinless, born of a virgin. Not much else.
      Oh yes, “Kalimat Allah” کلمه الله comes from John 1:1, 14. But Muhammad didn’t read it, he just heard the heretical and nominal Christians call Jesus “Word of God” ( Kalimat Allah کلمه الله )

      Like

  14. Dr. White proved Muhammad is not in the Bible at all in his debate with Zakir Hossein.

    Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Dr. White proved Muhammad is not in the Bible at all in his debate with Zakir Hossein.

      I say;
      Where did Dr. White saw Prophet Mohammed copying from a Jew or a Christian? Or a proof from a Jew of Christian at the time of Mohammed who came forward to show the place he saw him(Mohammed) listening or learning or copying their scripture from a Jew. No such a proof.

      When the prophet of Islam started to preach, people came public to call him a liar. Some of the Jews who did not convert calls the prophet a liar publicly and not from God but none of them came forward to say, they saw him learning, listening or copying their literature. Mr. Ken bring the proof because the Jews and the Christian said all sorts of negative things publicly against our prophet, but never caught him learning, listening or copying their scripture. At least one of them could have saw the prophet listening or learning or copying from them and came out public to mention it, but no such thing. You and Dr. James White are wishful thinkers thinking he might have got it from the Jews and Christians but you do not have proof and all you are thinking is baseless.

      You said;
      Surah 7:157- yes, it claims that Muhammad is in the Torah and the Gospel but he is not in there at all.

      About Moses and the OT in the Qur’an – there were a lot more Jews in Medina and they got those stories from the Jews and not Christians. A lot of stuff is directly from the Talmud, Midrash

      But the NT was not available to Muhammad and the Arabs, therefore, very little similarily. Only the phrases Al Masih, son of Mary, Injeel, Jesus did miracles, was sinless, born of a virgin. Not much else.
      Oh yes, “Kalimat Allah” کلمه الله comes from John 1:1, 14. But Muhammad didn’t read it, he just heard the heretical and nominal Christians call Jesus “Word of God” ( Kalimat Allah کلمه الله )

      I say;
      Yes, some Jews and Christians at the time of prophet Mohammed recognised him in their scripture and converted and of course not the Gospels of Luke, Mark, Mathew and John but the originals that remains with them at that time.

      Because Roman Catholics have their books, the protestants have their books, the Ethiopians have their books and later King James had his books and for that reason you cannot claim you know the Jewish and Christian books at the time of Mohammed because it keeps changing.

      Because of the discrepancies with have King James only Christians who believe in King James Bible only and we have so many number of books with different numbers and long and short of the same chapter and so many discrepancies, so you cannot know the exact and real books of the Jews and Christians in the time of prophet Mohammed because of the discrepancies.

      You said;
      But the NT was not available to Muhammad and the Arabs, therefore, very little similarily. Only the phrases Al Masih, son of Mary, Injeel, Jesus did miracles, was sinless, born of a virgin. Not much else.

      I say;
      There is a whole chapter of Mary and how she was a pious woman, and how she left home the description of her conception and how the Angel came to her and how her people blame her etc. Somebody must have caught Mohammed hearing all these stories and reported it publicly prove he is not from God. All that they accuse him publicly is that he is not from God but never said the saw him listening, copying or studying his story from them. No proof Mr. Ken.

      It is not only injeel, Al-Masih and son of Mary, that is your wishful thinking, there is complete chapter about Prophet Jesus too.

      Compare this and see which is from God.

      New Testament

      Luke 1:35
      New Living Translation
      The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God.

      Quran
      “How can I have a son when no man has touched me, neither have I been unchaste?” (19.20) and “How can I have a child when no human being has touched me?” (3.47)

      “Thus Your Lord has said: ‘It is easy for Me. And so that We may make of him a sign for people and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter that has been ordained’” (19.21), and, “Thus Allah creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it ‘Be!’ and it is” (3.47).

      Thanks

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      correction

      This
      At least one of them could have saw the prophet listening or learning or copying from them and came out public to mention it, but no such thing. You and Dr. James White are wishful thinkers thinking he might have got it from the Jews and Christians but you do not have proof and all you are thinking is baseless.

      Must be read this
      At least one of them could have seen the prophet listening or learning or copying from them and came out publicly to mention it, but no such thing. You and Dr. James White are wishful thinkers thinking he might have got it from the Jews and Christians but you do not have proof and all you are thinking is baseless.

      Thanks

      Like

    • You said;
      Dr. White proved Muhammad is not in the Bible at all in his debate with Zakir Hossein.

      I say;
      Where did Dr. White saw Prophet Mohammed copying from a Jew or a Christian?

      I didn’t write that – I just wrote that in the debate with Zakir Hossein, Dr. White proved that Muhammad is not in the Bible. He proved it by just looking at all the texts.

      as brother in Deut. 17-18 means from the Jewish tribes, an Israelite. So that cannot be Muhammad.
      Song of Solomon 5:16 cannot be about Muhammad because the book is about a man and a woman and their romantic love for one another before they get married; the whole book is a celebration of romantic and then, after they get married – sexual love within marriage. It is the speech of the bride expressing her love for her soon to be husband. Nothing to do with Muhammad at all.
      John 14 and 16 cannot be about Muhammad because it is about “the Holy Spirit who will be IN you” -live in the hearts of the disciples of Jesus, and abide forever with Christians. Muhammad was a mere human and so cannot be the comforter, the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit.

      We don’t need a recording or a video tape news type year 2015 standards of proof in order to know that Muhammad and the compilers of the Qur’an borrowed from Jewish Midrash, fables, the Torah, the Talmud, and apocryphal Gnostic gospels about Jesus’ birth and early life, and the cave of the seven sleepers of Ephesus was obviously a legend written after the 400s-500s AD, and found its way into the Qur’an in Surah 18.

      The similarities of the stories shows he got them from the earlier sources.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      We don’t need a recording or a video tape news type year 2015 standards of proof in order to know that Muhammad and the compilers of the Qur’an borrowed from Jewish Midrash, fables, the Torah, the Talmud, and apocryphal Gnostic gospels about Jesus’ birth and early life, and the cave of the seven sleepers of Ephesus was obviously a legend written after the 400s-500s AD, and found its way into the Qur’an in Surah 18.

      I say;
      The people of prophet Mohammed’s time accused him publicly of being a liar and not from God and a magician to make his verses of the Quran looks superior than their poetry and poems. The Christians and Jews who did not convert accuse him of lying. You know what, there is no single proof from them by catching him at least once or twice listening to them, learning from anyone, or copying from Jews and Christians at his time to come out with this long Quranic stories.

      At least when hearing or listening or learning from a Jews and Christians at that time to come out the long stories of the Quran, some body must have caught you hearing, listening or learning from those Jews and Christians and they would have reported it publicly and say “Oh we saw Mohammed at this place listening to our stories”. There is not a single proof and the Christians following his century never concentrated on this attack, because they knew it will be impossible to get what is in the Quran from them because no body caught him listening, learning or copying from anyone. It is now that the Christians like James White and yourself using the claim of getting what is in the Quran from the Jews and Christians without proof.

      The old scriptures and the new scripture are all from One God and the Quran confirms the scriptures before it and mentions the corruptions in them and also made some corrections with additions and deletions in some stories like the what Allah said to the angel to tell Mary after she asked about Jesus birth.

      —————————————————————-
      Compare this and see which is from God.

      New Testament

      Luke 1:35
      New Living Translation
      The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God.

      Quran
      “How can I have a son when no man has touched me, neither have I been unchaste?” (19.20) and “How can I have a child when no human being has touched me?” (3.47)

      “Thus Your Lord has said: ‘It is easy for Me. And so that We may make of him a sign for people and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter that has been ordained’” (19.21), and, “Thus Allah creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it ‘Be!’ and it is” (3.47).
      ———————————————————————-

      Mr. Temple the Quran’s language is spiritual than Luke 1:35. in that Jesus is God’s sign to us and God’s Mercy to us and Allah has the power to create whatever He wants without any difficulty.

      Again, the story of Egypt dynasties, the Quran corrected the Bible by referring to their Kings as Kings in some dynasties and pharaohs in some dynasties.

      The Quran added in its edition that the drowned pharaoh who chased Moses and his people will have his body preserved it is preserved now in Cairo, but that part was missing from the Bible.

      If the prophet is a hearer and listener from Jews and Christians why was he correct in accepting Jesus as the messiah but the Jews rejected Jesus as a messiah?

      He accepts the virgin birth, the Jews reject he is correct
      He accepts Jesus a prophet from God the Jews reject correct
      If he is listening from Jews? Why did he reject them from the above.
      He said Mary is a pious woman and the best of woman among women. Did he get this from Gnostics gospels and legends? Where is the proof.

      It is your believe that the Gnostic gospels is not from God but others believe at least some of it is from God, so your argument is baseless. This is my frustrations with Christians in that anything about them is the best but for others is bad.

      Your New Testament is a selection from a large literature and people not God made the selection of the NT and so you cannot tell me your literature is better than the Gnostic gospels. Some text were rejected and later accepted in NT and some deleted, and the same chapter has longer and shorter ending and so many discrepancies, so you cannot tell me your NT is the best but others gospels is legend. That is not true at all.

      The Quran categorically denied the death of Jesus Christ and correct. Did he copied that one too from Christians? It is popular to Christians that Jesus died for their sins and if he is hearing from them, why did he totally reject that?

      This will tell you that Mohammed has no control over his message but from a divine being who knows what is right.

      The Quran also said there is confusion with regards to Jesus death and it can be seen from the conflicting accounts from the gospels.

      You said;
      I didn’t write that – I just wrote that in the debate with Zakir Hossein, Dr. White proved that Muhammad is not in the Bible. He proved it by just looking at all the texts.

      as brother in Deut. 17-18 means from the Jewish tribes, an Israelite. So that cannot be Muhammad.
      Song of Solomon 5:16 cannot be about Muhammad because the book is about a man and a woman and their romantic love for one another before they get married; the whole book is a celebration of romantic and then, after they get married – sexual love within marriage. It is the speech of the bride expressing her love for her soon to be husband. Nothing to do with Muhammad at all.

      I say;
      As I said, the text wasn’t stable because of the addition, deletion and discrepancies, you can’t ascertain the exact text at Mohammed’s time but some Jews and Christian recognized him from their scripture and converted to Islam. The proof is there.We
      I will argue on the bases that the Christian literature is not stable but others say Mohammed is in the song of Solomon and that “He” in the Holy Spirit means a person and not a spirit.

      We have King James only Christians, Roman Catholic edition of the Bible, The Ethiopian, The protestants Bible, The Shephered Hermes and others that did not find their way in the Bible and so many discrepancies, so you cannot be sure, what scripture is in Mohammed’s time.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • The text was and is stable. All the doctrines about the Sonship of Christ, the virgin Birth of Christ, that He is the Word that became flesh; that He was crucified, dead, buried, and rose from the dead are all there in those Bibles.

      Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox agree on the 27 books of the New Testament and that Jesus is God in the flesh, virgin born, died on the cross and rose from the dead.

      The only difference you are talking about is that the Roman Catholics and Ethiopian church adds a few Old Testament books and the Ethiopians add some canons (rules) in the NT that most scholars believe are originated in Clement’s writtings.

      But those differences do not affect any stable doctrine of what Islam argues about with Christians. We are all agreed on the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, that Jesus is the eternal Son, the cross, resurrection.

      No textual variant affects any doctrine. Jesus is said to have been crucified and buried and risen from the dead in Mark 15 and 16:1-8. The clear texts are there. So you are wrong.

      the text of the Torah, Zobur, and Gospel was stable at the time of Muhammad, that is why he said, “go ask the people of the book” (Surah 10:94) and “let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein” (Surah 5:47)

      The Qur’an commands you to trust the previous Scriptures and they were all there with all the evidence you need for it’s stability.

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    • The Orthodox Tewahedo broader New Testament canon has eight additional books.

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    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox agree on the 27 books of the New Testament and that Jesus is God in the flesh, virgin born, died on the cross and rose from the dead.

      The only difference you are talking about is that the Roman Catholics and Ethiopian church adds a few Old Testament books and the Ethiopians add some canons (rules) in the NT that most scholars believe are originated in Clement’s writtings.

      I say;
      Who asked them to add few Old Testament books? and Canons(rules) in the NT? . It is not to original book of God when anyone can just add, delete, modify and do what ever he wants.

      It had affected Gods message, and that is what the Quran is talking about the corruption of the original message. OT and NT is no more original and the injeel according to Quran was given to Prophet Jesus himself and not Mark, Mathew, Luke and John.

      You said;
      No textual variant affects any doctrine. Jesus is said to have been crucified and buried and risen from the dead in Mark 15 and 16:1-8. The clear texts are there. So you are wrong.

      I say;
      It is not only textual variants, but additions and deletion i.e. The long and short chapters in NT and the King James only Christians who do not trust other Bibles and the Jehovah witness who do not believe Jesus is God and other Christians who do not believe Jesus is God and other Christians who venerates Mary, the mother of Jesus etc. from the time when Christianity was created till today, there are differences in doctorines based on the changes the Bible had undergone.

      You said;
      the text of the Torah, Zobur, and Gospel was stable at the time of Muhammad, that is why he said, “go ask the people of the book” (Surah 10:94) and “let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein” (Surah 5:47)

      I say;
      Yes, you can be judged there in if you believe God is One which is revealed there in. But you should know tht God is One, Only and Alone but you should know that God is 3 Persons who has relationship is different from a God who is One One, and Alone. Your intellect must tell you that the 3 Persons God is part of the corruption added by men and you should distance yourself from it like the Unitarian Christians.

      And your God given intellect must tell you that, God as One divine being cannot have His substance shared by other Persons/persons.

      Why can’t it be?

      a. Jesus said he does not know the date but only the father knows i.e. Jesus is talking about 2 different substances here between him and the other Person(Father) and not Only One and Alone person as the Bible clearly stated that God is Only One and Alone.

      b. Your argument is that, because Jesus is on earth he cannot exercise his divine powers to know the date but you forgot Jesus while on earth exercised his divine powers to raise the dead, heal the sick and so on.

      God does not lie at all, so Jesus lied to say he does not know the end date, because as the same substance of God, he must know the date no matter where he is. Or he should just say “Oh as God by myself, I know the date, but it is not something I will provide to you” as simple as that, so that it will make him the same substace of God. But Jesus categorically said he does not know the date, so he cannot be the same substance of God. It is impossible and so Jesus is not God and God cannot die and God did not die for anyone’s sins since Jimmy Swaggart and Pastor Eddie Lee long are responsible for their sins and they need repentance as Christians just like a Muslims will need repentance from his sins becaus he is responsible for his sins because no one has died for his sins. You should use your intellect to deduce the corruptions in the Bible and stay away from it for your own good instead of been recalcitrant.

      You said;
      The Qur’an commands you to trust the previous Scriptures and they were all there with all the evidence you need for it’s stability.

      I say;
      Not at all. Yes, we believe the Bible is from God but there is corruptions in it, that is why the Quran is here to guide us and to make corrections of the previous scriptures like the pharoas body preserved in Egypt which is not in the Bible and also God is not 3, Jesus did not die etc.

      Thanks

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    • The Roman Catholics and Ethiopians added some things; but they do not affect any doctrine about Jesus as the eternal Son, Word of God that became flesh, the Trinity, crucifixion, death, and resurrection.

      The Roman Catholics use a verse in Macabees to say that we can pray for the dead. They visit graves also and pray for the dead, etc.

      These things are wrong; but they still don’t affect or corrupt the other parts of Scripture which we agree on; so the Torah, Psalms, and Injeel are stable – our Scriptures is stable and the Qur’an commands you to believe in them and accept them.

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    • Your “sciptures” are not the original revelations from God. You don’t have the Originals. You have a collection of man-made books riddled with problems. The Codex Sinaiticus – the oldest complete NT manuscript – has Jesus as an Angel of God in a book that was removed from your Bible.

      Funny how you try to twist the Quran for your purposes. Isn’t your opinion“It is the Qur’an’s understanding that is the problem.”???

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    • . . . has Jesus as an Angel of God in a book that was removed from your Bible.

      What are you talking about there?

      Originally, each book and letter was written separate from one another. They were scrolls rolled up and probably sealed with wax. the codex form of flattening the pages out and stacking them together and tying them together did not even exist until 200-250 AD. They were written on animal skins and the papyrus plant – they easily became old and rotted; so the Christians kept making more copies of them. They were persecuted, so it is under lots of difficult circumstances that we have the evidence we do.

      The archeologists started finding the papyri recently in the dry sands of Egypt, as they would rot in wet climates.

      The papyri of the 2nd and 3rd centuries were found, they agreed with Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus, etc. so when older copies were found, they agreed with what was already known.

      We are able to get back to the original reading with 99 % certainty because of comparing the manuscripts with one another. The major doctrines are repeated so much – for example, that Jesus died on the cross (which Islam denies) – it is impossible for anyone to have gotten rid of some kind of original that denied the crucifixion (and agreed with Islam) and create so many old manuscripts that teach that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead.

      But all of the copies agree with each other, and when variants exist, we can assess what is authentic and what is not by comparison.

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    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      The Roman Catholics use a verse in Macabees to say that we can pray for the dead. They visit graves also and pray for the dead, etc.

      These things are wrong; but they still don’t affect or corrupt the other parts of Scripture which we agree on; so the Torah, Psalms, and Injeel are stable – our Scriptures is stable and the Qur’an commands you to believe in them and accept them.

      I say;
      They were able to add things which you yoursel believe is wrong and they are wrong, what will not allow some body who have that belief like yourself to add that God became man and died for peoples sin by borrowing it from the pagan and idol worshiping Greeks or from other cultures? God dying and having a Son is alien in Jewish tradition but the norm of the pagan, idol worshiping Greeks.

      The Bible itself said God is immortal and if so, how can He die for your sins?

      Some Christians do not believe God became man, so stop saying that you all agree with the same doctrine and the doctrine is not affected. The doctorine has been affected the most that is why the Quran is here to correct. Constatine had to kill people and force others to stick to his original pagan doctorine that found its way into the Bible i.e. God died and had a son.

      The Quran commands us to believe God revealed the old scriptures but there is corruptions in it, but the Quran is the final without corruption and guidance to mankind.

      Thanks

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    • what will not allow some body who have that belief like yourself to add that God became man and died for peoples sin by borrowing it from the pagan and idol worshiping Greeks or from other cultures?

      Because there is no evidence of that at all. All the earliest manuscripts have the NT teaching of the Word becoming flesh. The Jews knew that the Messiah is also Son of God. (Mark 14:60-64), He is a Son (Isaiah 9:6) with the name Mighty God and Immanuel = God with us; and He would be born of a virgin. (Isaiah 7:14); so it is not borrowed from pagan religions. The Jews translated Alma as virgin in Greek about 200 years before Christ came into the world. And Genesis 24:16 (Hebrew; betula = virgin) and 24:43 (Alma, maiden; young woman of marriagable age) shows they were the same person. The Jews knew that Messiah would suffer for our sins – Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 – that is why many Jews of first century DID accept that message, because they saw it in the OT and the Lord opened their minds to understand the Scriptures – Luke 24:45.

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    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Because there is no evidence of that at all. All the earliest manuscripts have the NT teaching of the Word becoming flesh. The Jews knew that the Messiah is also Son of God. (Mark 14:60-64), He is a Son (Isaiah 9:6) with the name Mighty God and Immanuel = God with us; and He would be born of a virgin. (Isaiah 7:14); so it is not borrowed from pagan religions.

      I say;
      The Arians, Ebionites and many more Christians did not believe Jesus is God. And it continues till today where many Christians like Jehovah Witness, Unitarians and even some protestants friends of mine did not believe Jesus is God;

      I discussed this with you that a word cannot become flesh because a word(God) cannot be with another God when the Bible clearly states that God is One Only and Alone.

      Then you argue that, the Son and the Father were in communication from eternity and having the same substance.i
      And Prophet Jesus proved you totally wrong by saying that the Father did not communicate the date with him making the continuous communication between them a lie.

      Jesus also said categorically that he does not know the date. That invalidates those who preach that Jesus and the Father have the same substance, hence they all know what is happening. Jesus is a different substance from the Father because he does not know the date but only the Father knows.

      Jesus used his divine powers to raise the dead and heal people and perform so many miracles on EARTH Sir, So it is illogical to tell me that because he is on earth he can’t use his divine powers to tell us the date. He said he does not know the date but only the Father knows. He could have switched to his divine as usual to tell us the date or simple say “Fellows, I will not provide the date to you now”. Ken, if you say he has the same substance with God, you are making him a liar and it is blaspheme because God substance must be able to give us a date but not to lie that he does not know while he is God on earth raising people from the dead and performing miracles using his divine powers.

      Because a manuscript is earlier does not make it true Sir. An earlier or a later manuscript can be false and wrong depending on the inconsistencies, illogicalities and irrationalities. If I have an earlier manuscript that says God dead or orange is banana, I do not have to believe that manuscript because it the earlier.

      Some earlier Christians and modern Christians did not believe the word is God and died for their sins so stop saying believe your doctrine. Most Christians do not believe what your earlier manuscript says or what you believed your earlier manuscript said i.e. word becomes man and the man is God.

      So, it does not matter the earliest of your manuscript, it is corrupted by men like how the Catholics added some things to augment their belief and that is what the Quran is here to correct that]

      God is One and He Alone must be worshiped and He is not 3.

      Thanks.

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    • Ken, did you even listen to what Zakir said in the debate or were you just looking to White to back up your worldview?

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    • Yes, I watched and listened to it at the time.

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  15. I just listened and watched that debate again, and Dr. White did an excellent job of proving that Muhammad is not in the Bible. 2 hours and 8 minutes.

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  16. I just wrote a long article along with the video of the debate between Zakir Hossein and James White at my blog.

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  17. There are a lot of Papyrii from 200-250 AD that confirms what is in the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus of 300-350 AD. Some from 150-200 AD. Look up/ Google “List of New Testament Papyrii”. And P52 is even older, 120-150 AD.

    No one could do a conspiracy of what would have to be done to completely do away with the crucifixion, doctrines such as the incarnation and Son of God and Trinity, etc. as Islam tries to do. Tertullian and Ireneaus, from 180-220 AD, quote from, defend, mention, and allude to most all the NT books.

    Even Bart Ehrman agrees that Paul’s main letters (Galatians, Romans, I Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians, Philippians) were written in the 50s and 60s AD. Liberals call them “the authentic Pauline letters). He thinks the others are forgeries or Pseudonomous (written by a student of Paul in Paul’s name) . He is wrong, but at minimum, he agrees with those.

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    • as I said above, Paul’s religion and that of Jesus were quite different in many respects. This fact is well known to scholars…

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    • “Paul’s religion and that of Jesus were quite different in many respects.”

      The unbelievable part of this is, of course, the unescapable implication that
      nobody noticed it at the time. Many scholarly theories of today about the past
      are like that.

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    • no such implication was intended. People did notice it at the time, see the conflict between Jesus’ brother (and head of the church) James, and Paul in Galatians and 2 Corinthians. This book summarises the academic debate:

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brother-Jesus-Lost-Teachings-Christianity/dp/1594770433/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425975911&sr=1-1&keywords=jeffrey+butz

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    • “”The brother of Jesus”

      Quran 4:156: “[We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander”

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    • “no such implication was intended. People did notice it at the time, see the conflict between Jesus’ brother (and head of the church) James, and Paul in Galatians and 2 Corinthians.”

      Mr. Williams, could you please name the specific passages? In Galatians, Paul writes that James, Peter and John “recognizing the grace that had been given to me, (…) gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles” (2:9). That doesn’t seem to reflect a conflict between the two.

      “This book summarises the academic debate:”

      I have to admit that I have not yet read “The Brother of Jesus and the Lost Teachings of Christianity”, but are you sure that this is a scholarly work? According to Wikipedia (admittedly, not the best source) “Bütz’ most recent book, The Secret Legacy of Jesus (2010), offers the thesis that the Judaistic teachings of Jesus were passed in underground fashion from groups such as the Nazarenes and Ebionites to the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, via the Cathars and Freemasons.” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Bütz).
      Of course, that is a different book, but seeing that “The Brother of Jesus and the Lost Teachings of Christianity” was published by Inner Traditions, a publisher of “books related to New Age spiritualism and esotericism, mysticism, neoshamanism, astrology, the perennial philosophy, visionary art, Earth mysteries, sacred sexuality, alternative medicine, and recordings of ethnic music and accompaniments for meditation” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Traditions_%E2%80%93_Bear_%26_Company), doesn’t really inspire confidence. Nor does the fact that searching for “Jeffrey Bütz” on the site of the Society of Biblical Literature wields up no relevant findings (http://www.sbl-site.org/searchresults.aspx?cx=012028072752611992285%3A7gzu507oe6k&cof=FORID%3A10%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=Jeffrey+B%C3%BCtz).

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    • Mr. Williams, I posted a comment several hours ago, but it is apparently still awaiting moderation. Is there something wrong?

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  18. @ Temple “. . . has Jesus as an Angel of God in a book that was removed from your Bible.

    What are you talking about there?”

    The Shepherd of Hermas. Is in the oldest complete NT Manuscript, the Codex Sinaiticus. Has a different Christology from your eisegesis.

    Your oldest complete NT has two additional books. Face up to the facts and stop preaching.

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    • Yes, I know about the Shepherd of Hermas. But he doesn’t use the word “Angel” to refer to Jesus. True, the Christology seems adoptionistic or even Arian. That is one of the big reasons it is not canonical.

      The New Testament already existed as individual books by 96 AD. They, the 27 books/letters were individual scrolls. Just because someone attached the Shepherd of Hermas to the back of a codex in the 300s does not mean it was canonical. People combined books together as a mini-library for pragmatic purposes (space, money, expense of the skins written on, etc.) Some did seem to think it was inspired or canonical, but it was discerned and judged as non-canonical because it was not apostolic; and the Christology seemed either Adoptionistic or Arian. It was considered good reading for edification, but not inspired or canonical. It says Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to God the Father, “the door”, and that He was filled with the Holy Spirit.

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    • A. D. Howell-Smith writes concerning the Shepherd of Hermas (Jesus Not a Myth, pp. 120-121):

      The Shepherd of Hermas, a strange allegory written sometime in the second century, had a great vogue in orthodox circles and was even included in some copies of the New Testament (it is found in the Sinaitic Codex). The theology of the Church must have been very elastic at a time when such a book could enjoy popularity and implicit, if not explicit, ecclesiastical sanction, for its Christology does not seem to square with any of the Christologies of the New Testament, or with those of contemporary theologians whose occasional documents have reached us. The Shepherd speaks of a Son of God; but this Son of God is distinguished from Jesus.
      Jesus then becomes divine through the power of God, after consultation with the Son of God, who elsewhere in The Shepherd is identified with the Holy Spirit. “The most venerable angel,” “the glorious angel,” “the holy angel” are titles that Hermas gives to Jesus in his allegory

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    • You have to give the exact references in the Shepherd of Hermas itself (chapter, verse), not just Mr. Howell-Smith’s opinon of it. I have the Greek text next to the English test, and I would be interested to see exactly where it says, “Jesus is a holy angel”. I haven’t found it. I have looked. It may be there, but I have not found it. I read it along time ago in seminary, (1984) but cannot find what you are talking about.

      I found passages where it calls Jesus a pre-existent spirit and filled with the Holy Spirit and Son of God and those that seem adoptionistic (that when the Spirit came into Him later, then He became the Son – which is heresy).

      But it is a pretty big book, the longest before Justin Martyr’s writings and Irenaeus.

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    • Yes it is a heretic book in your oldest complete NT Manuscript. I would be interested to see exactly where it says, “God is a trinity” in your inerrant “Bible”.
      I cannot find what you are talking about.

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    • It is derived from 3 truths that are in the Bible. It is a theological truth from the combination of 3 truths.
      1. There is only one creator, Sovereign God. Mark 12:29; 1 Tim. 2:5; Deut. 6:4, Isaiah chapters 40-48; Genesis 1:1
      2. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also called God – Jesus is the eternal Word/Son who became flesh – John 1:1-5; 1:14; John 5:17-18; 8:24; 8:56-58; 10:30; 20:28; Philippians 2:5-8; Romans 9:5; Hebrews 1:3, 6, 8, 10-12; Colossians 1:15-20; Holy Spirit – Genesis 1:2, Acts 5:3-5.
      3. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each relate to each other as in a personal relationship – they know each other, speak to each other, etc.
      (therefore, the word “person” reflects the fact that in Scripture, each of the three are in personal relationship with one another.

      Therefore, to protect both Monotheism, and the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and that each of them relate to one another, the word 2 words developed – Trinitas Unitas – three in One. Three in person, One in nature/substance.

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    • eisegesis

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    • Have you taken the time to read a full book on the subject?

      These 5 books are excellent on the issue:

      James White, The Forgotten Trinity
      Michael Reeves, Delighting in the Trinity
      Robert Letham, The Holy Trinity
      Robert Bowman, Why You Should Believe in the Trinity
      Timothy George, Is the Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad?

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    • I don’t have to rely on opinions and speculations. Facts: The biblical “father” of Jesus is the “father” of Israel = JHWH is one “He”, one “Who”, not three. Just like the God of Muhammad (sas)

      “The one what is the one Being or essence of God; the three who’s are the Father, Son, and Spirit. We dare not mix up the what’s and who’s regarding the Trinity. (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, p. 27)”

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  19. As Mark quoted from Galatians 2:9 (see Galatians 2:7-10), we see James and Peter and Paul are unified in doctrine. Also, in Acts 15, Peter, Paul and Barnabas and James are all unified.

    “apostles and elders” (Acts 15:4, 6)
    Peter preached the same message as Paul – that the Gentiles are accepted by faith – Acts 15:8-11

    “He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” – Acts 15:9

    8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Acts 15:8-11

    James says he agrees with Peter, thus agreeing with Paul and Barnabas, and the prophets (Quotes from Amos 9:11) – Acts 15:14-15ff.

    25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 15:25

    So we see that James agrees with Paul and Barnabas and Peter.

    James 2:1 – “. . . your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ . . . ”

    The other recommendations that James makes about food offered to idols, blood, and things strangled are not about requirements for salvation, but about not offending the Jews. “you will do well” (Acts 15:29) does not mean “in order to be saved”. Don’t eat meat offered to idols in front of Jews. It would be the same principle for me to not eat or serve pork to my Muslim friends, nor have a glass of wine with my meal with Muslims.

    Granted, that James includes fornication/sexual immorality (poreneia) in that list makes it difficult to understand. The Gentiles lifestyles of sexual immorality was rampant and apparently their lifestyle was evident by the way they behaved in public. Like today, the way people act and dress and talk – one can tell when they are promiscuous or not. The Jews saw alll those things together as the characteristics of the Gentiles. Commentators have wrestled with why that is there, since the other 3 things about meat and blood and food, Paul lays down principles for not eating that meat in front of the weaker brethren in I Cor. 8 and Romans 14.

    It seems that James put porneia / fornication / sexual immorality (meant all sexual sins before marriage and outside of marriage. They was also another word for adultery, refering to sexual sin after one is married or with another married person) in the the list because the Jews looked at the Gentiles as a whole as “idol worshippers and sexually immoral”. Similar to the way many Muslims view western culture as a general whole – pig eaters, idolaters, and sexually immoral.

    James wants to make sure that if the Genitles claim that they are believers, they need to show their repentance by a different lifestyle. The same principles are repeated in Acts 21:17-26. Obviously Paul preached that those who are practicing sexual immorality / pornea are showing that they are not true believers – 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-8

    Also, that theory that the view of James later survived in the Nazarene sect and also the Ebionites does not work with Islam, since the Qur’an says the disciples of Jesus became the uppermost فوق , dominant, victorious, and manifest ظاهر. (Surah 3:55 – ; 61:14) This was the message of the unified gospel of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James, and the growth of that message, even under Roman persecution, until 313 AD and beyond, as numerous Christians that grew in the first 3-4 centuries and eventually won over the Roman Empire.

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