Though the Guardian predictably sees apostates as heros struggling for their human rights, the article contains much that is of interest in this taboo subject.
Categories: Islam, Life in the West
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Blogging Theology 
This part was spot on:
“We went from a Bengali to a Muslim community. It’s almost as if we’re suffering a second colonisation, the Arabisation of Asian cultures. Even my brother wears long Arab dresses.”
I’d say it goes further than just the arabisation of Asian cultures, it effects any culture. And Islam is supposed to be a universal religion, applicable for all times and all people. But in reality it’s more of a pan-Arab ideology.
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Islam is a universal religion that arose in the Arab world in its current form therefore it makes sense that certain Arab dress codes amongst other things have been incorporated into modern British Muslim life which no longer has one culture but is now a myriad of Muslim cultures merging and meshing with each other.
As a British Muslim of Pakistani origin I wear my national dress as proudly and happily as my abaya or my Western clothing. Some Muslims prefer the full Arabic regalia which they argue for on a religious basis, a view I might digress with but fully respect.
So Melvin, you don’t seem to have any issue with Western clothing being readily imitated and snapped up by young, urban people and the elites in developing countries I take it. I assume in your view that’s not a sign of a pan Western ideology that flesh is good to show is it 😉 Islam is a lot more than just clothing as I’m sure you think Christianity or Judaism is.
To Paul, there has been a surfeit of such articles in the past few weeks I have noticed, perhaps triggered by Ayaan and also the self promotion and marketing of a certain ideological ex muslim group. I’ve read the same kind of stories repeatedly. To be honest it’s a difficult and sad situation and it depends entirely on the family and that person in regards to how the families can move on from it. Agree with you on the Guardian’s coverage though, religious and secular viewpoint is totally different and never the twain the shall meet lol.
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Oh please mona, you have no idea about my views so don’t get ahead of yourself. I don’t rely on surface level issues such as clothing to determine whether a religion is true, I was simply highlighting an important point mentioned in the article. And I made no mention of Western clothing so I don’t know why you’d bring that up. I’m guessing your one of those Muslims that confuses Christianity with Western lifestyle such as the UK and US. That’s an example of surface-level understanding.
I’ve delved far into plenty of reasons why Islam is not a universal religion on this site and the one before it. This post isn’t the place to go into such a thing.
Plus, you spelt my name wrong. I can’t be wasting time with you.
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Oh apologies for getting your name wrong Marvin. As for the rest of your emotional response you just told me off for assuming what kind of Christian you are (I did not allude to this in my reply at all and as a person dwelling in the UK I am fully aware that Western does not equal Christian thanks! I think you missed my original point but cba to explain it again soz) and then you turned around and told me what kind of Muslim I am. Nice.
As for the Bengali guy wah-wahing about arabisation of his culture I’m pretty sure he has no issue with westernisation of his culture so double standards as per.
Islam is a totally universal religion, in that anyone can become Muslim. Just like Christianity. Sibling rivalry is so cute ya know Marvin. Let’s all just be honest about it.
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I said “I’m guessing” which indicates I may not be entirely correct.
And there are no double standards in what he said because the Arabisation of a culture is included within Islam, whereas Westernisation has nothing to do with religion. This goes back to my original point that if Islam was universal, there would be no need to impose Arab culture onto those people who join the religion and that goes much deeper than just clothes. That is just one of plenty examples of course, and like I said it’s more of a surface-level issue. But here is an example of how a surface-level issue can still matter:
In Ramadan, you have to fast during daylight hours. Muslims also have 5 obligatory prayers which are timed according to the position of the sun. This is an easy command to prescribe for a 7th century Arab who has never travelled all around the world. However in certain parts of the world (such as parts of Canada, Norway, Russia and more), as you move closer to the poles a natural phenomenon known as the “midnight sun” occurs between the months of May to August, where the sun never sets, not even at night – hence the name. This would make both observing Ramadan and obligatory prayers difficult in those areas. If Muhammad or Allah were aware of this, they would have been able to give special rules for people living in those places, or at least applied the commands in terms of 24 hour observance (universal) rather than the position of the sun in the sky (regional). This also means that the Islamic calendar (which is the only purely lunar calendar in the world) is not universal but something that only works in certain parts of the world. Most world calendars are lunisolar, which means they take into account both the phases of the moon and the solar years, whereas the Islamic calendar is purely lunar, which can cause complications in properly observing the 4 different seasons.
On top of that, the hadiths and Sunna give plenty of self-evident proof that Islam is pan-Arab rather than applicable for all peoples, at all times, all over the world.
These things I’ve mentioned are rather surface-level issues; they don’t necessarily deal with whether a quranic statement is true or accurate but if we’re talking about universalism then it becomes important.
If Islam is universal because anyone can become Muslim, that goes for just about any belief or ideology. You made a true statement but it would be a poor argument.
And sibling rivalry is not fun when millions, perhaps billions have died over the centuries because of this so called rivalry.
By the way, I don’t have a problem with Islam, I just don’t believe it is a universal religion. Many of the rules and legislations within the Quran are clearly still confined to 7th century understanding to be able to work in the 21st century and beyond.
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Marvin I certainly do believe Islam is a universal religion. It is embraced by countless different ethnic groups and language speakers from around the globe, most of whom do not read or speak Arabic. 1.6 billion of us.
I’m not sure I get you point about the 7th century. Is it that it is a very long time ago?
Most people in the West have no problem following rules and political systems that were either invented over 2,500 years ago (democracy from ancient Athens) or the moral code of the NT, written just 2000 years ago. Islam is a baby compared to these!
Regarding people living at the geographical extremities, Islam contains a great diversity of scholarly views, some permit those in regions with little or no night (or day) to follow salat/ramadan timetables from countries much further south.
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I’m aware of that, but when these 1.6 billion muslims pray what language do they have to pray in? Dua’s may be done in any language I guess but not salat. I think a universal God would be able to understand prayer in any language.
When these 1.6 billion muslims pray, what direction do they face? The Kaaba, a sanctuary that had no history with Abraham or Ishmael until the advent of Islam.
In contrast Jesus says “a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” John 4:23-24
This makes more sense in that God who is supposed to be omnipresent and universal, can be contacted wherever we may be, rather than at one unique spot in the world. Even Solomon, after building the 1st temple said “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!” 1 Kings 8:27
And the problem with the Islamic laws is not because of time, I’m not that shallow. The rules in the Quran on marriage (including to prepubescent girls – Surah 65:4), divorce, inheritance, death sentences, crime, polygamy, and more; these rules are no longer applicable to everyone on a large global scale. I know Muslims believe Islam is the solution of mankind, but take time to really read and analyse the Quran, hadiths and tasfir and you’ll see that is not the case. I’m also aware that Muslims will have a biased favourable view towards their own religion so may not really do what I’ve just recommended in the previous sentence.
And yes I’m aware of that, it can and does work, but isn’t it problematic for something that claims to be universal and applicable anywhere? It should work for people in those regions without them having to make adjustments if it were truly universal.
Perhaps I should find a better term to use than universal because it’s caused some confusion. In terms of the number of Muslims worldwide, then of course Islam is a universal religion. What I’m trying to get at is that it cannot claim to work for everybody. Just look at the very article in this post for example. Muslims who leave their faith put their lives in danger because the great diversity of scholarly views that you mentioned, declare that these people should die. Of course, you might find a minority that have different opinions on apostasy, but how acceptable and popular is their view?
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Not only is Islam a universal religion (for the reasons I have stated) but it is applicable to all times and places. Shariah is flexible system that takes account of local circumstances and contexts. Scholarly discussions and rulings over the centuries bear witness to this fact. Tim Winter (Islamic scholar at Cambridge uni and expert on the Ottoman period) has mentioned this to me in discussions.
The oldest (and most widely followed) school of Islamic jurisprudence – that of Ibn Hanifa – does not require the death penalty for apostasy.
All your objections to Islam have detailed and credible answers. But these are just some brief replies.
Btw, I can quite understand that you do not know my views about the Bible – but I am on record as saying I do not believe Jesus actually spoke the words attributed to him in John’s gospel. The historical Jesus likely did not say them.
I think Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel – not to gentiles like me. Judaism (Jesus’ religion) is not a universal religion.
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Interesting, I didn’t know Shariah was so flexible.
Also, I don’t know where you got your information from but the hanafi school of law, founded by Ibn Hanifa does require the death penalty for apostasy depending on the circumstances. If you are an adult male, you have 3 days to change your mind otherwise you must be killed (the 3 day wait is not even mandatory, that means you can be killed at the moment you are charged of apostasy). If you are a woman you are to be imprisoned and beaten until you revert back to Islam.
Your statement only applies to children from what I know, because they may be considered too young to make such a decision so no punishment is given.
Oh yes I’m aware of that, it just didn’t come to my mind at the time of writing. That doesn’t mean I should be prevented from quoting from John, and that verse I quoted from is a message that resonates well with a belief in a universal, omnipresent God regardless of whether Jesus actually said it or not.
And if Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel and not gentiles, then I wonder why Allah allowed Christianity to grow to such an extent to become the largest and most widespread religion in the world, even after he declared in the Quran that Islam would be superior to all other religions (Surah 9:33, 48:28). From a Muslim perspective it makes no sense.
The New Testament acknowledges that Jesus was sent to the Jews first, but his mission didn’t end there. Interestingly enough, Surah Maryam, 19:21 says “And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind”. If Jesus was sent “only” to the lost sheep of the house of Israel as you claim, then he would be a sign only for his own people like the previous prophets were, not a sign for mankind as the Quran claims.
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All the main schools of Islamic thought declare death for apostasy from what I’ve read, this is why there are so many disputes and arguments on how to deal with these things. Seems like there’s a need to revamp or re-look the medieval texts again on these issues.
Also for monajuly, Islam is intrinsically linked to Arab culture.
For Marvin, perhaps it’s not whether Islam is universal but whether it is objectively true or not, in particular the Quran.
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Marvin you are mistaken about abu Hanifa. Shaykh Atabek Shukurov is an Islamic Scholar (and Hanifi specialist) who currently resides in the UK. Here he explains the position:
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you claim
‘And if Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel and not gentiles, then I wonder why Allah allowed Christianity to grow to such an extent to become the largest and most widespread religion in the world…’
God sent his final prophet Muhammad to correct and reform Christianity as it had invented falsehoods about Jesus (that he was God) and lost sight of the pure monotheism of Moses and Jesus. God did not invent the trinity doctrine (it is condemned in the Quran) or the idea of substitutionary atonement – ideas which are contrary to the teaching of the prophets.
The Quran makes clear that Jesus was only sent to the Children of Israel, 3:49 & 61:6.
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If the view on apostasy is that straightforward in the hanafi school, it shouldn’t take an hour 30 to discuss. I won’t be watching the video but I’ve already acknowledged that a minority have different views on apostasy anyway. This video has been out for nearly a year and has less than 2000 views, so like I said before, this view of apostasy is clearly not widespread whether or not it is endorsed in the hanafi school.
Your last point still doesn’t answer the questions I brought forth in my last paragraph. You’re only dealing with surface-level issues within Christianity such as Jesus being God and the trinity. Even if these things were false, it would not change whether or not the Bible is true. What would you say to unitarian Christians? How has their version of Christianity been corrected and reformed by Muhammad if they already had the so called correct view already?
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Marvin it is a shame that you do not want to educate yourself on Islam as it really is. Doubtless it suites your world-view to hold a simplistic black and white view of the faith. In fact, Islam has many diverse views on many things.
I think it is laughable that you consider the Trinity and Jesus being God as ‘surface-level issues within Christianity’. Christians would view these theological truths as absolutely central to their faith and practice!
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Marvin Henry
Mr. Henry how are you?
You said;
‘And if Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel and not gentiles, then I wonder why Allah allowed Christianity to grow to such an extent to become the largest and most widespread religion in the world…’
I say;
Before Christianity, even though there was Judaism, which is a religion from the One and Only and Alone God of Abraham, Greek Pagan religion of God The Son, God of Love, Goddess of Sex, God of this, God of that which is still adopted by Christians was the largest and most widespread religion of the world. Why should your God allow that? but not allow Judaism or Jewish religion not to be widespread?
Widespread of false religion does not mean it is true. Hinduism is the widespread and largest in India, Sri Lanka and so many countries in Asia today. Why should your God allow that? to grow to such an extent?
Islam came late to correct Christianity and other human beings and it caught up with Christianity right now is also one of the world dominant, widespread, and largest religion, despite media bias and world lies about it, it is still growing fast and one of the world fastest growing religions.
Thanks
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Paul if I held a “simplistic black and white” view of Islam my comments would demonstrate much more ignorance and “Islamophobia” than present. You’re the one who’s using your current world view to dismiss any evidence against Islam whilst agreeing with everything that goes against Christian belief – this is known as Confirmation Bias.
And I’m not trying to remove the theological importance of the trinity or Jesus being God, I’m simply stating that these views are not the roots of the Christian faith. For that reason, if the trinity or Jesus being God was to be “disproved” then that would still not have an effect on whether Christianity is true or not, I’ve said this so many times now. You can find simple examples of this throughout history – Jesus’ first disciples never used the word trinity (though I would argue that they did in fact view him as divine, particularly after his resurrection), many people throughout history have denied the trinity and Jesus being God yet still believe in him as the messiah, crucified and resurrected – this includes people such as Isaac Newton who remained a devout Christian and firm believer in the authority of the Bible even though he agreed that the comma johanneum was a corruption, also there are many non-Trinitarian Christians worldwide. Like I’ve mentioned before, this tells us that there is something more crucial and central to the Christian faith and that would be the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15, and that is one of the earliest creeds of Christianity which dates to only a couple of years after the events.
Intellect it’s been a long time. I’m fine thanks, how are you?
Also I’m well aware of the fact that other religions have spread across the world or in large populations, and I’m also aware that the size of a religion does not reflect on whether it is true or not. However, given what Muslims say about Christianity, from an Islamic perspective the rise and growth of Christianity specifically, does not make any sense. How is it possible that Jesus was only sent to Jews yet his message was received by others to become a global faith? Many other prophets were sent to the Jews before Jesus and their message stayed within Judaism including some who preached in other lands such as Jonah and the prophetess Esther. From a Biblical perspective it makes sense as to why it happened; centuries before Jesus arrived God promised that a particular individual (or perhaps Israel itself) would be a light for the Gentiles: “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles…” (Isaiah 42:6). And again “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6)
A question you can ask yourself from these 2 passages is who fulfilled this prophecy: Israel, Jesus or Muhammad? You can see from Isaiah 49:6 that God is speaking to an individual since Israel is mentioned in third person.
This is further explained in multiple passages in the New Testament for example; “11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.” (John 1:11-13); “Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against” (Luke 2:34); “26 “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath.” (Acts 13:26-27); “46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.” (Acts 13:46)
“I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew… What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened… Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious… Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved… As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:1-2,7,11,25,28-29)
Everything I’ve quoted above from the Bible actually agrees with certain passages found in the Quran and for this reason I say that the rise and existence of Christianity from what Muslims say makes no sense. The Quran itself specifically mentions Christians or believers in Jesus Christ, this is why I’m not talking about other faiths in relation to Islam. Just look at these couple of examples:
Surah 3:55 – [Mention] when Allah said, “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.
Surah 61:14 – O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, “Who are my supporters for Allah ?” The disciples said, “We are supporters of Allah .” And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
Surah 19:21 – He said, “Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, ‘It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.’ ”
Surah 5:13 – So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard…
Surah 57:16 – …And let them not be like those who were given the Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their hearts hardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient.
Surah 2:74 – Then your hearts became hardened after that, being like stones or even harder…
You can see from the first 2 Quranic verses that the Quran is speaking in the past tense, so it was talking about believers in Jesus before Islam who became the superior or dominant believers. Surah 61:14 specifically mentions different factions of Jews, those who believed (i.e Christians) and those who disbelieved. The Jews who believed in Jesus who would later become Christians, were made superior to the disbelievers; Surah 3:55 adding that it will remain like this until the day of resurrection. Even under persecution from Romans, Christianity still grew. Surah 19:21 mentions that Jesus will be sign to all of mankind (some English translations such as the one above have removed “mankind” for “the people”). If Jesus is a sign for mankind, once again his ministry could not have been solely for the Jews, otherwise it would not make sense for him to be a sign for all of mankind. The last 3 Surahs quoted mention how the Jews hearts were hardened just as mentioned in Romans 11 but Romans ends with a positive note that the Jews will one day be reconciled because God does not reject His people nor does He break His promises.
Now the point is, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ has been the dominant Christian worldview since the beginning of Christianity, we easily have 1st century evidence that proves this. So bearing all this in mind, my question is how do you as a Muslim explain all of this from an Islamic perspective? The burden of proof is on you because history and research confirms the very Christian belief that it is trying to deny.
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