Jesus prayed to God the Father while on earth. He was God the Son and on earth. (John 1:1-5; John 1:14; John 17:5) The Son was not an atheist while He was on earth. The Father did not become flesh, but was and is in heaven. Therefore there are in these verses 2 persons in the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is the third person. (John 14; 16; Acts 5:3-5) God is Trinitas Unitas (3 in One) and Unitas Trinitas (one in three). (Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14) Therefore, it is historically accurate – “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory . . . ” (John 1:14; also Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-20; Hebrews chapter 1)
Jesus Al Masih is at the right hand of the Father, praying for His people. 1 John 2:1; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25: 9:24
What a wonderful redeemer, Savior, and intercessor we have!
Totally historically accurate and Jesus death on the cross is the most historically verified fact of His existence; yet your book denies historical reality.
By denying the cross, you are denying the way of salvation from sin and guilt and eternal death.
Jesus Al Masih conquered sin, guilt, Satan and the demons and guilt – Colossians 2:13-15
Ken you are quite confused. Jesus was a Jewish monotheist. He prayed to God. He worshiped God. He said that, like us, he had a God. There are verses in the gospels that have Jesus saying all these things.
It follows inexorably that he was not God. Your desperate spinning notwithstanding.
It is not “desperate spinning”; rather, explaining the Bible, the incarnation, the Trinity, and the atonement and intercession for us.
You know this is historic Christian teaching.
it is historic Christian teaching – but Jesus did not teach it.
You have not explained how if Jesus was a Jewish monotheist and He prayed to God and He worshiped God and He said that, like us, he had a God – he could be that God.
Your religion is contrary to reason, common sense, logic and Jesus.
Thanks Williams for proving that Allah can’t be God since Allah prayed to and worshiped God:
They are those on whom are the prayers (salawatun) from their Lord and mercy (rahmatun), and it is they who are the guided-ones. S. 2:157
He it is who prays (yusallee) for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer
Verily, God and His angels pray (yusalloona) for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him (salloo) and salute him with a salutation! S. 33:56 Palmer
Palmer has a rather interesting footnote to Q. 33:43 regarding the Quranic usage of the Arabic word for “prays”, namely salla:
145:1 The same word is used as is rendered ‘pray’ in ALL THE OTHER PASSAGES in the Qur’ân, though the commentators interpret it here as meaning ‘bless.’ So, too, in the formula which is always used after Mohammed’s name, zalla ’llâhu ‘alâihi wa sallam, ‘may God bless and preserve him!’ is literally, ‘may God PRAY for him and salute him!‘ (http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/sbe09/033.htm#fn_186)
Palmer’s comments show that Muslims have no way around the fact that their deity prays much in the same way that creatures like angels do, since the Arabic word used here always means prayer whenever it is used in the Quran.
The hadith reports also mention Allah praying for people:
1387. Abu Umama reported that the Messenger of Allah said, “Allah AND His angels AND the people of the heavens AND the earth, EVEN the ants in their rocks AND the fish, PRAY for blessings on those who teach people good.” [at-Tirmidhi] (Aisha Bewley, Riyad as-Salihin (The Meadows of the Righteous), Book of Knowledge, 241. Chapter: the excellence of knowledge; bold, capital and italic emphasis ours)
And:
2685. Abu Umamah al-Bahili narrated: “Two men were mentioned before the Messenger of Allah. One of them a worshipper, and the other a scholar. So the Messenger of Allah said: ‘The superiority of the scholar over the worshipper is like my superiority over the least of you.’ Then the Messenger of Allah said: ‘Indeed ALLAH, His Angels, the inhabitants of the heavens and the earths – even the ant in his hole, even the fish – say Salat upon the one who teaches the people to do good. (Hasan)
[Abu ‘Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Gharib Sahih… (English Translation of Jami‘ At-Tirmidhi, Compiled by Imam Hafiz ‘Eisa Mohammad Ibn ‘Eisa At-Tirmidhi, From Hadith no. 2606 to 3290, translated by Abu Khaliyl (USA), ahadith edited and referenced by Hafiz Abu Tahir Zubair ‘Ali Za’i, final review by Islamic Research Section Darussalam [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition: November 2007], Volume 5, Chapter 19. What Has Been Related About the Superiority Of Fiqh Over Worship, p. 80 – listed as number 70 in the ALIM CD-Rom version of at-Tirmidhi’s hadith collection; capital and underline emphasis ours)
There are additional references which acknowledge that Allah prays:
The people of Israel said to Moses: “Does your Lord pray?” His Lord called him [saying]: “O Moses, they asked you if your Lord prays. Say [to them] ‘Yes, I do pray, and my angels [pray] upon my prophets and my messengers,’” and Allah then sent down on his messenger: “Allah and His angels pray…” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 33:56; translated from the Arabic online edition)
And:
Hadith 216:
The Israelites said to Musa: Does your Lord pray? Musa said: Fear Allah, O Sons of Israel!
Allah said: O Musa! What did your people say? Musa said: O my Lord, You already know? They said: Does your Lord pray?
Allah said: Tell them My prayer for My servants is that My Mercy should precede My Anger. If it were not so, I would have destroyed them. [Ibn ‘Asakir] (Al-Ahadith Al-Qudsiyyah – Divine Narratives translated by Dr. Abdul Khaliq Kazi & Dr. Alan B. Day, Section 2: Al-Ithafat Al-Saniyya Bi‘l-Ahadith Al-Qudsiyyah by Shaikh Zain al-Din Abdul Ra‘uf b. Taj al-‘Arifin b. ‘Ali b. Zayn al-‘Abidin al-Munawi [Dar Al Kitab Arabi – USA, 1995], pp. 305-306)
The following is supposed to be a prayer of Allah taken from Ibn Hisham’s Al-Sirah Al-Halabiyya:
قلت يا جبريل أيصلى ربك قال نعم قلت وما يقول قال يقول سبوح قدوس رب الملائكة والروح سبقت رحمتى غضبى
I [Muhammad] said, “O Gabriel, does your Lord pray?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “What does he say?” “This is what he says. He says: ‘Glory, holy, Lord of the angels and the Spirit. My mercy overcomes my wrath.’” (Bold, underline and comments within brackets ours)
What makes this rather amazing is that according to the Islamic sources the words salawat and salah refer to worship and glorification:
Ibn Al-Atheer in his highly acknowledged dictionary of the Arabic language, ‘Al-Nihaayah fi Ghareeb al-Athar’ has explained “Sala’h” as follows:
‘Al-Sala’h’ and ‘Al-Salawaat’: used for a particular kind of worship. Its literal origin is supplication (prayer). Sometimes, ‘Sala’h’ is referred to by mentioning any one or more of its parts. It is also said that the literal origin of the word is ‘to glorify’ and the particular worship is called ‘Sala’h’, because it entails the glorification of the Lord. (The Meaning of the Word “Sala’h”, May 19, 2001; bold emphasis ours)
Therefore, Allah can’t be God!
Now as Ken said, it is perfectly understandable how Jesus can pray to God and still be God since he is the eternal divine Word of the Father who is personally distinct from and perfect communion and fellowship with God. However, how in the world could you justify Allah praying and worshiping anybody if, as you say, he is unipersonal? Do you really want us to believe that Allah worships himself?
R. Johanan says in the name of R. Jose: How do we know that the Holy One, blessed be He, says prayers? Because it says: Even them will I bring to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer.1 It is not said, ‘their prayer’, but ‘My prayer’; hence [you learn] that the Holy One, blessed be He, says prayers. What does He pray? — R. Zutra b. Tobi said in the name of Rab: ‘May it be My will that My mercy may suppress My anger, and that My mercy may prevail over My [other] attributes, so that I may deal with My children in the attribute of mercy and, on their behalf, stop short of the limit of strict justice’.2 It was taught: R. Ishmael b. Elisha says: I once entered into the innermost part [of the Sanctuary] to offer incense and saw Akathriel Jah,3 the Lord of Hosts, seated upon a high and exalted throne. He said to me: Ishmael, My son, bless Me! I replied: May it be Thy will that Thy mercy may suppress Thy anger and Thy mercy may prevail over Thy other attributes, so that Thou mayest deal with Thy children according to the attribute of mercy and mayest, on their behalf, stop short of the limit of strict justice! And He nodded to me with His head. Here we learn [incidentally] that the blessing of an ordinary man must not be considered lightly in your eyes.
Williams thanks for proving that you have absolutely no answer to the problem that ends up refuting your own theology, thereby exposing your own blatant inconsistencies and dishonesty:
Fact: The God-breathed Scriptures which you appeal to teach that he is the eternal divine Word of the Father who is personally distinct from him, and therefore able to enjoy perfect communion and fellowship with God (cf. John 1:1-4). The NT further teaches that the eternal Word became flesh, i.e., an actual human being, in order to become the kind of man that God intends every human creature to be (cf. John 1:9-11, 14).
Now the perfect man would not be an atheist or rebellious transgressor, but an individual that flawlessly obeys God’s will and renders perfect worship and service to him. Therefore, since Jesus was such a man it shouldn’t surprise us to find him worshiping and perfectly obeying his heavenly Father, doing only that which pleases him:
“They went out of the city and came to Him. Meanwhile His disciples urged Him, saying, ‘Rabbi, eat.’ But He said to them, ‘I have food to eat of which you do not know.’ Therefore the disciples said one to another, ‘Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?’ Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.’” John 4:30-34
“Then Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do. For whatever He does, likewise the Son does… I can do nothing of Myself. As I hear, I judge. My judgment is just, because I seek not My own will, but the will of the Father who sent Me.’” John 5:19, 30
“So Jesus said to them, ‘When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing of Myself. But I speak these things as My Father taught Me. He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I ALWAYS do those things that please Him.’” John 8:28-29
“For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. I know that His command is eternal life. Therefore what I say, I say as the Father tells me.”” John 12:49-50
“But I do as the Father has commanded Me so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.” John 14:31
“As the Father loved Me, I also loved you. Remain in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, even as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.” John 15:9-10
Therefore, It is perfectly understandable to see why Jesus would pray to and worship God and still be God. And since he is the Incarnate Word, it only makes sense that the Father would become his God.
However, here are some facts that you have no answers to, which is why you evade them like the plague:
Fact: Both Judaism and Islam teach that the deity prays.
Fact: Both Judaism and Islam teach that the deity worships, since prayer is an act of worship per your claims and arguments.
Fact: Since prayer and worship are acts directed to God, this means that the deity worshiped in Judaism and Muhammad’s Allah are worshiping some other being, and therefore are just like us humans. Or they must be worshiping themselves.
Inexorable conclusion – Muhammad’s Allah and Judaism’s deity cannot be God, or they are egotistical schizophrenic beings who worship and talk to themselves! h
Like I said Williams, your religion is contrary to reason, common sense, logic and Jesus, and is nothing more than an antichrist system. Double Ouch!!
Blogging Theology 
Jesus prayed to God the Father while on earth. He was God the Son and on earth. (John 1:1-5; John 1:14; John 17:5) The Son was not an atheist while He was on earth. The Father did not become flesh, but was and is in heaven. Therefore there are in these verses 2 persons in the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is the third person. (John 14; 16; Acts 5:3-5) God is Trinitas Unitas (3 in One) and Unitas Trinitas (one in three). (Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14) Therefore, it is historically accurate – “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory . . . ” (John 1:14; also Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-20; Hebrews chapter 1)
Jesus Al Masih is at the right hand of the Father, praying for His people. 1 John 2:1; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25: 9:24
What a wonderful redeemer, Savior, and intercessor we have!
Totally historically accurate and Jesus death on the cross is the most historically verified fact of His existence; yet your book denies historical reality.
By denying the cross, you are denying the way of salvation from sin and guilt and eternal death.
Jesus Al Masih conquered sin, guilt, Satan and the demons and guilt – Colossians 2:13-15
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Ken you are quite confused. Jesus was a Jewish monotheist. He prayed to God. He worshiped God. He said that, like us, he had a God. There are verses in the gospels that have Jesus saying all these things.
It follows inexorably that he was not God. Your desperate spinning notwithstanding.
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It is not “desperate spinning”; rather, explaining the Bible, the incarnation, the Trinity, and the atonement and intercession for us.
You know this is historic Christian teaching.
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it is historic Christian teaching – but Jesus did not teach it.
You have not explained how if Jesus was a Jewish monotheist and He prayed to God and He worshiped God and He said that, like us, he had a God – he could be that God.
Your religion is contrary to reason, common sense, logic and Jesus.
Not bad Ken.
LikeLike
Thanks Williams for proving that Allah can’t be God since Allah prayed to and worshiped God:
They are those on whom are the prayers (salawatun) from their Lord and mercy (rahmatun), and it is they who are the guided-ones. S. 2:157
He it is who prays (yusallee) for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer
Verily, God and His angels pray (yusalloona) for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him (salloo) and salute him with a salutation! S. 33:56 Palmer
Palmer has a rather interesting footnote to Q. 33:43 regarding the Quranic usage of the Arabic word for “prays”, namely salla:
145:1 The same word is used as is rendered ‘pray’ in ALL THE OTHER PASSAGES in the Qur’ân, though the commentators interpret it here as meaning ‘bless.’ So, too, in the formula which is always used after Mohammed’s name, zalla ’llâhu ‘alâihi wa sallam, ‘may God bless and preserve him!’ is literally, ‘may God PRAY for him and salute him!‘ (http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/sbe09/033.htm#fn_186)
Palmer’s comments show that Muslims have no way around the fact that their deity prays much in the same way that creatures like angels do, since the Arabic word used here always means prayer whenever it is used in the Quran.
The hadith reports also mention Allah praying for people:
1387. Abu Umama reported that the Messenger of Allah said, “Allah AND His angels AND the people of the heavens AND the earth, EVEN the ants in their rocks AND the fish, PRAY for blessings on those who teach people good.” [at-Tirmidhi] (Aisha Bewley, Riyad as-Salihin (The Meadows of the Righteous), Book of Knowledge, 241. Chapter: the excellence of knowledge; bold, capital and italic emphasis ours)
And:
2685. Abu Umamah al-Bahili narrated: “Two men were mentioned before the Messenger of Allah. One of them a worshipper, and the other a scholar. So the Messenger of Allah said: ‘The superiority of the scholar over the worshipper is like my superiority over the least of you.’ Then the Messenger of Allah said: ‘Indeed ALLAH, His Angels, the inhabitants of the heavens and the earths – even the ant in his hole, even the fish – say Salat upon the one who teaches the people to do good. (Hasan)
[Abu ‘Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Gharib Sahih… (English Translation of Jami‘ At-Tirmidhi, Compiled by Imam Hafiz ‘Eisa Mohammad Ibn ‘Eisa At-Tirmidhi, From Hadith no. 2606 to 3290, translated by Abu Khaliyl (USA), ahadith edited and referenced by Hafiz Abu Tahir Zubair ‘Ali Za’i, final review by Islamic Research Section Darussalam [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition: November 2007], Volume 5, Chapter 19. What Has Been Related About the Superiority Of Fiqh Over Worship, p. 80 – listed as number 70 in the ALIM CD-Rom version of at-Tirmidhi’s hadith collection; capital and underline emphasis ours)
There are additional references which acknowledge that Allah prays:
The people of Israel said to Moses: “Does your Lord pray?” His Lord called him [saying]: “O Moses, they asked you if your Lord prays. Say [to them] ‘Yes, I do pray, and my angels [pray] upon my prophets and my messengers,’” and Allah then sent down on his messenger: “Allah and His angels pray…” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 33:56; translated from the Arabic online edition)
And:
Hadith 216:
The Israelites said to Musa: Does your Lord pray? Musa said: Fear Allah, O Sons of Israel!
Allah said: O Musa! What did your people say? Musa said: O my Lord, You already know? They said: Does your Lord pray?
Allah said: Tell them My prayer for My servants is that My Mercy should precede My Anger. If it were not so, I would have destroyed them. [Ibn ‘Asakir] (Al-Ahadith Al-Qudsiyyah – Divine Narratives translated by Dr. Abdul Khaliq Kazi & Dr. Alan B. Day, Section 2: Al-Ithafat Al-Saniyya Bi‘l-Ahadith Al-Qudsiyyah by Shaikh Zain al-Din Abdul Ra‘uf b. Taj al-‘Arifin b. ‘Ali b. Zayn al-‘Abidin al-Munawi [Dar Al Kitab Arabi – USA, 1995], pp. 305-306)
The following is supposed to be a prayer of Allah taken from Ibn Hisham’s Al-Sirah Al-Halabiyya:
قلت يا جبريل أيصلى ربك قال نعم قلت وما يقول قال يقول سبوح قدوس رب الملائكة والروح سبقت رحمتى غضبى
I [Muhammad] said, “O Gabriel, does your Lord pray?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “What does he say?” “This is what he says. He says: ‘Glory, holy, Lord of the angels and the Spirit. My mercy overcomes my wrath.’” (Bold, underline and comments within brackets ours)
What makes this rather amazing is that according to the Islamic sources the words salawat and salah refer to worship and glorification:
Ibn Al-Atheer in his highly acknowledged dictionary of the Arabic language, ‘Al-Nihaayah fi Ghareeb al-Athar’ has explained “Sala’h” as follows:
‘Al-Sala’h’ and ‘Al-Salawaat’: used for a particular kind of worship. Its literal origin is supplication (prayer). Sometimes, ‘Sala’h’ is referred to by mentioning any one or more of its parts. It is also said that the literal origin of the word is ‘to glorify’ and the particular worship is called ‘Sala’h’, because it entails the glorification of the Lord. (The Meaning of the Word “Sala’h”, May 19, 2001; bold emphasis ours)
Therefore, Allah can’t be God!
Now as Ken said, it is perfectly understandable how Jesus can pray to God and still be God since he is the eternal divine Word of the Father who is personally distinct from and perfect communion and fellowship with God. However, how in the world could you justify Allah praying and worshiping anybody if, as you say, he is unipersonal? Do you really want us to believe that Allah worships himself?
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Sam thanks for proving that you have absolutely no answer to the problem that refutes your theology:
Fact: Jesus was a Jewish monotheist
Fact: He prayed to God
Fact: He worshiped God
Fact: He actually said that, like us, he had a God
Inexorable conclusion – he could be that God.
Like I said, Ken and Sam, your religion is contrary to reason, common sense, logic and Jesus. Ouch!! 😉
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BTW, even Judaism teaches that God prays!
R. Johanan says in the name of R. Jose: How do we know that the Holy One, blessed be He, says prayers? Because it says: Even them will I bring to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer.1 It is not said, ‘their prayer’, but ‘My prayer’; hence [you learn] that the Holy One, blessed be He, says prayers. What does He pray? — R. Zutra b. Tobi said in the name of Rab: ‘May it be My will that My mercy may suppress My anger, and that My mercy may prevail over My [other] attributes, so that I may deal with My children in the attribute of mercy and, on their behalf, stop short of the limit of strict justice’.2 It was taught: R. Ishmael b. Elisha says: I once entered into the innermost part [of the Sanctuary] to offer incense and saw Akathriel Jah,3 the Lord of Hosts, seated upon a high and exalted throne. He said to me: Ishmael, My son, bless Me! I replied: May it be Thy will that Thy mercy may suppress Thy anger and Thy mercy may prevail over Thy other attributes, so that Thou mayest deal with Thy children according to the attribute of mercy and mayest, on their behalf, stop short of the limit of strict justice! And He nodded to me with His head. Here we learn [incidentally] that the blessing of an ordinary man must not be considered lightly in your eyes.
1. Ibid. LVI, 7. ‘In the house of My prayer’.
2. I.e., not exact the full penalty from them.
3. Lit., ‘crown of God’. (Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakoth, Folio 7a: http://www.come-and-hear.com/berakoth/berakoth_7.html)
This gives us an idea of why Muhammad taught that his god prays since he was simply parroting the Jews at this point.
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Williams thanks for proving that you have absolutely no answer to the problem that ends up refuting your own theology, thereby exposing your own blatant inconsistencies and dishonesty:
Fact: The God-breathed Scriptures which you appeal to teach that he is the eternal divine Word of the Father who is personally distinct from him, and therefore able to enjoy perfect communion and fellowship with God (cf. John 1:1-4). The NT further teaches that the eternal Word became flesh, i.e., an actual human being, in order to become the kind of man that God intends every human creature to be (cf. John 1:9-11, 14).
Now the perfect man would not be an atheist or rebellious transgressor, but an individual that flawlessly obeys God’s will and renders perfect worship and service to him. Therefore, since Jesus was such a man it shouldn’t surprise us to find him worshiping and perfectly obeying his heavenly Father, doing only that which pleases him:
“They went out of the city and came to Him. Meanwhile His disciples urged Him, saying, ‘Rabbi, eat.’ But He said to them, ‘I have food to eat of which you do not know.’ Therefore the disciples said one to another, ‘Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?’ Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.’” John 4:30-34
“Then Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do. For whatever He does, likewise the Son does… I can do nothing of Myself. As I hear, I judge. My judgment is just, because I seek not My own will, but the will of the Father who sent Me.’” John 5:19, 30
“So Jesus said to them, ‘When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing of Myself. But I speak these things as My Father taught Me. He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I ALWAYS do those things that please Him.’” John 8:28-29
“For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. I know that His command is eternal life. Therefore what I say, I say as the Father tells me.”” John 12:49-50
“But I do as the Father has commanded Me so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.” John 14:31
“As the Father loved Me, I also loved you. Remain in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, even as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.” John 15:9-10
Therefore, It is perfectly understandable to see why Jesus would pray to and worship God and still be God. And since he is the Incarnate Word, it only makes sense that the Father would become his God.
However, here are some facts that you have no answers to, which is why you evade them like the plague:
Fact: Both Judaism and Islam teach that the deity prays.
Fact: Both Judaism and Islam teach that the deity worships, since prayer is an act of worship per your claims and arguments.
Fact: Since prayer and worship are acts directed to God, this means that the deity worshiped in Judaism and Muhammad’s Allah are worshiping some other being, and therefore are just like us humans. Or they must be worshiping themselves.
Inexorable conclusion – Muhammad’s Allah and Judaism’s deity cannot be God, or they are egotistical schizophrenic beings who worship and talk to themselves! h
Like I said Williams, your religion is contrary to reason, common sense, logic and Jesus, and is nothing more than an antichrist system. Double Ouch!!
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lol Sam you are a bit of a loony – can anyone be bothered to reply to such gibberish?
Ouch!!
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I love you too Paul! 😉
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