My dialogue with apostate ‘Ismaa’eel Abu Adam’

Neil Littlejohn is an ex-Muslim who still goes by his Muslim name ‘Ismaa’eel Abu Adam‘. Perhaps he does this to trap or deceive people into thinking he is a Muslim who is criticizing Islam. In fact he is an apostate who twists and misrepresents Islamic teaching and its sources.  He has recently announced his return to the very religion (Christianity) he spent the last decade of his life deconstructing and refuting! He has uttered some truly offensive and disguising comments on social media about Islam, prompting me to write an article in response. Clearly, Littlejohn’s return to Christianity has coarsened his character – perhaps under the malign influence of his new extremist mentors David Wood, Sam Shamoun et al.

I contacted Littlejohn on Twitter to ask about his new found faith in Christianity. I was very curious to know if he had found any answers to the damning criticisms of Trinitarianism he had made as a Muslim. As you can read for yourself below it turns out he has virtually no replies to offer. He has refused my invitation to a public debate. The foundation of his faith appears to be very weak. I pray he returns to the straight path (Quran 1:6).

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Categories: Christianity, Islam, Islamophobia

372 replies

  1. Man, this guy is one deluded p.o.s.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Very very strange indeed. Dishonest to the core.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. “the divine element experienced what the human element experienced”

    how when the “divine element” is not “biological organism”

    ?

    Like

  4. Interesting!
    Christians have a tendency to use the polemic arguments more than true arguments based on evidences.

    I just want to point out to the idea to the concept of god dying,
    Christians have really a big problem about this matter.
    They keep telling us that the human body that does die not the divine side although they are NOT supposed to detach the human & divine natures from each other. However, why would you then argue that the death doesn’t mean anything except the separation between the body and the soul?
    If the definition of death is just that separation, and God has already told us he doesn’t die, then the argument about what the death means is pointless since whatever the death means, God is not subjected to it.
    Also, there’s no point that Jesus has to be resurrected since it seems there’s no difference between the death and life for christians
    Moreover, we should ask if Jesus was god after he died?

    For the normal people, of course the death means the following
    “I, I am he who comforts you; who are you that you are afraid of man who dies, of the son of man who is made like grass ”

    “Cease trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?”

    ” LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One,YOU WILL NEVER DIE…..”

    =================

    I’ll give Ismael one credit that he is the only true one whom christians present as an (ex muslim).
    Nabeel & Caner are fraud ,and they have never been muslims. Also, I’ve feeling that Ismael is not convinced that Jesus is God. I can’t see the passion with his arguments.

    Liked by 2 people

    • It’s really funny to hear a group of Muslims talking about the impossible problem that Christians have to deal with when talking about the death of Jesus or the Trinity. Those questions are simple to deal with but I need two things that are difficult to get in order ro make my poinT.
      1. Muslims willing to consider both sides on an equal footing
      2. Acceptance of the four gospels as Gospel. Meaning I don’t have to argue about any quotes that come from those 4 books.

      Without those two points we are all wasting our time. So far I haven’t found many muslims who are willing to take the challenge

      Like

    • ‘It’s really funny to hear a group of Muslims talking about the impossible problem that Christians have to deal with when talking about the death of Jesus or the Trinity. Those questions are simple to deal with.

      Really? Then how come we have never heard a decent explanation?

      Tell me was Jesus God or sent by God?

      Like

    • paul , the sender and the sent are not the same but the sender (god) is the same as the sent.

      Like

    • Jollygreen,
      1.We are willing to consider both sides, but that doesn’t entail acceptance of irrational, nonsensical arguments, about atonement, crucifixion, resurrection, Trinity, original sin, etc.

      2. You want us to accept 4 Gospels, but are you willing consider Islam on an “equal footing” and accept Qur’an as word of God? I doubt it, but if you do, you might as well become Muslim. Otherwise, you are right by YOUR OWN standard of stipulating demands, we are all wasting our time. And if that is what you really think, then why did you bother to comment at all? Just keep walking.

      According to Islam, it is never a waste of time to talk about God and religion.

      So will you “take the challenge” and accept Qur’an as the Final Testament and word of God? I doubt you will take the challenge.

      Like

  5. 1 person, 2 natures.

    the person with divine powers does not separately exist from human person

    ONE person.

    “united”

    so when jesus says ” i am going back to dad”

    the divine person says “i am going back to dad”

    ONE person. “united” not separate.

    if “human side” spoke , divine side was MUTE? playing tiddly winks?

    1 person said “i don’t know the mind of my father”

    here ,a MIND speaks

    it is not

    “god the human mind” and “god the divine mind”

    it is not separate existence.

    it is 1 person who is plugged into both natures.

    now what does it mean 1 person (god) – divine nature + human nature?

    god without powers, PLUGGED into human sight, hearing, thoughts etc etc?

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Furious Stylez

    He’s absolutely right about the Wood/Ally debate. David Wood wiped the floor with Shabir Ally in their series of debates.

    And to think Ally is supposed to be the best apologist Islam currently has to offer lol.

    With all due respect, Paul Williams, I’ve seen some of your “dawah” videos over at speakers corner. Not impressed. I don’t see you fairing any better against Wood.

    Like

  7. jesus has human life. is self aware of human life. improves and learns.

    does god have human life? who took away jesus’ human life? when jesus (1 person) loses control of his human life , WHO is losing his human life?

    1 PERSON , 2 natures , loses control of human life.

    ergo

    god loses control of his human life.

    Like

  8. I thought the reason he wouldn’t debate is he fears for his life (lol).

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Paul Williams

    God Bless you. He should be able to defend his religion not David Wood who lied that Nabeel Quraish was a Muslim who knew Islam but it turned out that Nabeel Quraish does not know his former faith(Qadiani) and planned of going to Syria to fight if he had remained in his former faith(Qadiani) to fight. David Wood cannot read Arabic, so he cannot interpret the Quran.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Has no one considered mental illness as a cause of his instability? In which case the man should be left alone in his rantings, and eventually find his own equilibrium.
    What’s the matter with muslims? Can’t find any orphans to feed?

    Sura Al Balad 10-18
    And shown him the two highways?
    But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep.
    And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?
    (It is:) freeing the bondman;
    Or the giving of food in a day of privation
    To the orphan with claims of relationship,
    Or to the indigent (down) in the dust.
    Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion.
    Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I agree. Mental heath issues are probably at the route of this.

      He became very harsh in his latter years, being extreme salafi then supposedly extreme sufi, but Allah guides whom he wills.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Paul W.
      At least you did your best to reach out and call him back to the Deen of Allah the straight path of reason and rationality. I applaud you for your efforts at reasoning with this lost and confused soul, and thanks for posting the conversation as a lesson to others. The rest is up to God.

      Hidayah min Allah – Guidance is from Allah!

      Liked by 3 people

  11. He’s had more religions than I’ve had hot dinners.

    Liked by 2 people

    • 17Yet they did not listen to their judges, for they played the harlot after other gods and bowed themselves down to them. They turned aside quickly from the way in which their fathers had walked in obeying the commandments of the LORD; they did not do as their fathers.

      Like

    • Thats probably because its winter 😉

      Like

  12. I just am completely unable to see what you guys find so difficult about the christian concept of god. It isn’t hard.

    God creates life and death and has absolute sovereignty over both. As such he defines the terms of his existence, how he manifests and where and when he chooses to enter his own creation.

    The islamic god is limited by the his own creation. He cannot be the true god. QED.

    Like

    • forget about god “entering creation” what these pagans are saying is that god

      saw, heard, had thoughts (gay or straight) , felt, like human beings

      sometimes they have their god fully experience this other times they just want a meat puppet carrying “spirit” of their god.

      their god could be carried around just like the idols carried their idols around

      and it is they who limit their god to a created flesh body.

      Like

    • Graham,
      “I just am completely unable to see”

      until you remove the arrogance from your heart, you will never be able to see the truth.

      QED? Far from it.

      Liked by 3 people

    • It is not difficult. Jesus is human because he embodied all the qualities of being human. Jesus is not God because he didn’t the qualities of being God.

      Like

    • “And allah is limited by his own creation. The universe is like a no-go area for him? Where in the quran does Allah say that he cannot become incarnate?”

      why do you need your created god to be physically in creation? why do you need to sniff him and he sniff you? why do you need to touch, taste, smell and see your god and your god , touch, taste, sniff and smell you? what is this “no-go” when everything is CREATED and was NOTHING before it was created? was your god in israel BEFORE he created israel?


      Allah is limited by his own creation – he cannot relay his message personally and is reliant on creatures within his creation to speak for him because he cannot do it himself. He is not the true god. QED.”

      how can you say this when you yourself believe that your god has to limit himself because his heavenly version cannot fully reveal it self? why does your god become a stinking human body ?


      Also, maybe you can show me where in the quran allah says that he cannot become incarnate?”

      you are asking a dumb question

      Like

    • Why do christians think that becoming a man is something positive,and shows the power of God?Becoming weak,mortal,ignorant etc are weaknesses,not strengths.

      Liked by 2 people

    • It’s the irony itself, Hashim.
      Christians claim that Muslims’ God is so limited since it’s impossible for him to be limited.

      Like


  13. God creates life and death and has absolute sovereignty over both. As such he defines the terms of his existence, how he manifests and where and when he chooses to enter his own creation.

    The islamic god is limited by the his own creation. He cannot be the true god. QED.”

    where is “absolute sovereignty” when he NEEDS to become and enter into FINITE?
    now listen carefully to your crack induced thinking

    god – — — —-> enters finite and is HELD by finite

    why isn’t finite having god properties?

    your “sewereing” god found himself in a uterus man. your god found himself in a uterus.

    if you say NOTHING finite PUTS any change or effect in God and He is ALWAYS separate, then you really r agreeing with the muslim position

    Like

    • edward/mr heathcliff/sybil

      God has sovereignty over the finite and infinite – he can do what he wants with it.

      By contrast, muslims don’t know what kind of being they worship – is he good? Evil? Muslims cannot say.

      Like

    • do the person in trinity make love to each other? i mean if they don’t how are they “loving” ?

      Like

    • Graham – unless your comments are about the post (which they are not) I will be deleting them. Trolls are not welcome here.

      Like

    • “No. Christians don’t believe that love is always about sex. That’s why we can “love” little girls without forcing them into marriage and physically and psychologically damaging sex when they are 9.”

      yet your god was quick to take on private parts? so how do we know there isn’t private parts in trinity and love making ?

      how were you receiving your gods love when he became finite and created? how did the 2nd person carry his “love” and hug you with it? since your god can’t CHOOSE who he will love then he is forced to love
      even when he is burning people in the depths of hell. lol

      Like

    • edward, I deleted the comment by Graham. Please don’t feed the trolls.

      Like

    • okay bro. i apologise for rude tone bro. i just hate these hypocrites.

      Liked by 1 person

    • please don’t apologise, you dd nothing wrong.

      Like

  14. Has Mr Littlejohn read the book of Revelations? I couldn’t believe my eyes when he sputtered the disappointing excuse ‘Jesus had a God while on earth’.
    Aside being illogical, it does sound ‘non-biblical’ as well. Revelations refutes him in the following words:
    ” I am coming soon. Hold on to
    what you have, so that no one
    will take your crown. The one
    who is victorious I will make a
    pillar in the temple of my God.
    Never again will they leave it. I
    will write on them the name of
    my God and the name of the city
    of my God, the new Jerusalem,
    which is coming down out of
    heaven from my God; and I will
    also write on them my new
    name”. (Revelations 3v11-12).

    It wasn’t surprising Sam Shamoun was ‘killed off’ (by this verse) in his debate with Brother Sami Zaatari. Most christians do not seem to know it exists.

    Liked by 2 people

  15. MashaAllah. This is what Neil/Ismaeel needs. I hope this type of dialogue can continue.

    A few personal observations

    1. He seemingly thinks Catholic and Christian are the same as he claims he has only changed religion twice but if I’m not mistaken he was a Catholic who converted to Protestant. And while he was a Muslims he did switch sects a couple of times at least . So he does have a history of changing direction.

    2. He seems to be reliant on David Wood. This is worrying as he was moved to convert to Islam through the debates of Ahmed Deedat. He seems to be moved by debates. What happens if he sees somebody like Tovia Singer debating Christians – he may be impressed by Tovia Singer’s charisma and convert to Judaism; then what happens if he sees charismatic Atheists debating theists?

    These Muslim-Christian debates aren’t a barometer for a religion – you have to think critically and research for yourself rather than being swayed by personality, charisma and debate tactics in a time pressured environment

    3. He’s not overly into academic level research into these matters as he was more into popular level/street level apologetics/polemics arguments when a Muslim and now seemingly so as a Christian.

    4. He still seems to be trying to figure out how he can be a Christian and what type of Christian he can be. I’m pretty sure he, despite all his problems, sees the Trinity idea as a stumbling block

    Liked by 3 people

    • Yahya,
      Good observations.

      “you have to think critically and research for yourself rather than being swayed by personality, charisma and debate tactics in a time pressured environment” – SO TRUE!

      “3. He’s not overly into academic level research into these matters as he was more into popular level/street level apologetics/polemics arguments when a Muslim and now seemingly so as a Christian.”

      That’s a big problem today, Street level apologists, thinking that they are scholars, we should all be careful from whom we take knowledge.

      Liked by 1 person

  16. He has refused my invitation to a public debate. The foundation of his faith appears to be very weak.

    Since you want to debate so badly, why don’t you debate Dr. White? Is your faith too weak to handle him?

    or Sam Shamoun? Is your faith too weak to handle him?

    They both have challenged you and you decline. but when Ismail declines, you seem to indicate that is something wrong with declining debate; yet you have done that also. (declined)

    Why not just go a head and do the hard work of preparing for debates with them?

    Like

  17. I see that Edward is on to something by question the one-person-two-natures argument. Christians often say that it is the human nature that doesn’t know etc and that it was the human nature that died. That argument goes against logic. A nature can’t die or do anything it’s an abstraction of certain traits. It’s a person who dies not it’s nature. So as long as jesus is one person irrespective of how many natures he has that person dies period. If that person happens to be god then god dies and that is a contradiction period or you have a definition of a god that can die.

    However, if Jesus’ body somehow was inhibited by two persons only then you can claim that agency etc is divided and that what happens to one person doesn’t necessarily affect the second. The two-natures nonsense is just a semantic ad hoc ploy to reconcile contradictions in the bible accounts about the divinity of jesus.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. i meant by questioning not “by question” …

    Like

  19. It seems that Ismail answered rightly:

    Jesus is the incarnate logos. (incarnate logos = “the word became flesh” – that is straight from John 1:1-5 and 1:14 and Philippians 2:5-8)

    “the biological human body of Jesus died”

    those 2 points are good; but you just ignore them. that is basic Christianity, established 600 years before your guy came along and claimed to be a prophet.

    Like

    • Ken you believe Jesus is God. Did God die on the cross?

      Like

    • already answered all that. The God-man died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death. then Jesus raised Himself from the dead, (john 10:18), proving He was God in the flesh.

      Like

    • “God…died”. You just confused me again. So God died after all. But the Bible clearly says God is “immortal” ie does not die.

      Like

    • “God…died”

      You deliberately put an ellipsis in between my words and that is dishonest of you.

      That is an example of what Yahya wrote about some one here:

      It’s awfully tiring having to go through the same discussions and it is just a hindrance to more meaningful dialogue with humble Christians seeking to learn and understand.

      You have to take ALL that we say about this subject and stop chopping it up according to your own prideful desires in order to just attack.

      Again:

      The God-man died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death. then Jesus raised Himself from the dead, (john 10:18), proving He was God in the flesh.

      Liked by 1 person

    • You say God died: the ‘God man’ who as Jesus was 100% God remember – yet you say God did not die!

      Who is being dishonest Ken?

      Like

    • “The God-man died” is different than saying “God died”. No, it is you are being dishonest, since you claim to be a former Christian and claim to have understood Christian theology.

      Like

    • Again:

      The God-man died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death. then Jesus raised Himself from the dead, (john 10:18), proving He was God in the flesh.

      Like

    • then the God bit of Jesus did not die. It is incorrect and misleading to say ‘The God-man died’. You cannot have it both ways.

      Like

    • If that is how Christian theologians define what the hypostatic union is and the union of the 2 natures into one person, the definition of death, and the power of Christ in His death and resurrection, who are you to say what Christianity says about itself?

      Like

    • The question if God died, or God -man died etc. are nothing but pathetic Christian attempts to justify fabricated doctrines. It is really just hair-splitting and our Prophet had something to say about it -.

      Abdullah reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Ruined, were those who indulged in hair-splitting. He (the Holy Prophet) repeated this thrice. (Sahih Muslim)

      Liked by 3 people

  20. It’s a person who dies not it’s nature.

    The human body dies. Death is the separation of the spirit/soul from the body. the human spirit / soul lives on .

    Even Islam would seem to agree with that. Death cannot affect the Divine being/nature because the Divine nature/being is not physical, but a an incredible greatness.

    “His greatness is unsearchable” Psalm 145:3

    “God is the greatest” – true.

    so, in a sense, Christians agree with the meaning of “Allah o Akbar”, if it was understood as the true God of the Bible, who existed from all eternity as One God in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Like

  21. “The God-man died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death. then Jesus raised Himself from the dead, (john 10:18), proving He was God in the flesh.”

    you know what you have done you retard? you have now said that jesus was simply a costume/mask/meat/

    it is no longer a self anymore.

    it is no longer a thinker.

    Like

    • “The God-man died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death. then Jesus raised Himself from the dead, (john 10:18), proving He was God in the flesh.”

      did the 1 PERSON who is fully god and fully man DIE?
      if the flesh died, then God never BECAME flesh. never saw, heard, spoke and thought like a human. congratulations. no incarnation.

      if 1 person was EXPERIENCING suffering, then was SAME person playing tiddlywinks WHILE same person SUFFERING?

      what a mental religion.

      Liked by 2 people

    • you know what you have done you retard? you have now said that jesus was simply a costume/mask/meat/

      it is no longer a self anymore.

      it is no longer a thinker.

      Again, edward, you violated your own holy book – Surah 29:46.

      Like

    • Ken watch your language. Ponder 1 Peter 3:15-16

      Like

    • ? huh ?
      It was edward who used bad language, not me. I was quoting edward.

      Like

    • where was my language bad?

      Like

    • i know longer have any interest in talking to you for all i know you could be 100 % human and 100% fish.

      Liked by 1 person

  22. You know what would make the world a better place? If Muslims and Christians would decide to leave each other to follow their beliefs in peace, instead of feeling the need to poke holes in one another’s theologies.

    Like

    • darthtimon,
      when the discussion is peaceful, it can lead to better understanding.

      “leave each other” alone, etc.

      But you also come here and comment. Are you not trying to dialogue and have rational argumentation? (you want to persuade toward the secularist/agnostic/atheist position, from what I understand. correct me if I am wrong.)

      since you come here and comment, you also seem to violate the very thing you just said we should do – shut up and never even talk to one another.

      Do you think edward contributes to peace when he says “idiot” and “retard’ and “you are not a thinking person”, etc. ?

      Like

    • There’s a difference between rational dialogue, and to quote myself, trying to poke holes in each other’s theologies.

      Like

    • rational dialogue includes honest critique, no?

      Like

    • There is a difference between honesty and an active effort to tear down someone else’s value system.

      Liked by 1 person

  23. “The human body dies. Death is the separation of the spirit/soul from the body. the human spirit / soul lives on .”

    did you know the HUMAN SPIRIT IS FINITE AND CREATED??????????

    did god BECOME FINITE AND CREATED spirit?

    is it NOW 1 persons , 2 spirits?

    Like

  24. yes God created the human spirit / soul.

    But even Islam teaches that the human souls / spirits go on after death.
    the pious go to paradise and the unbelievers / kaferoon go to hell fire.

    they don’t cease to exist.

    Like

    • Sahih International: And do not invoke with Allah another deity. There is no deity except Him. Everything will be destroyed except His Face. His is the judgement, and to Him you will be returned.

      ALLAHU AKBAAR!

      Liked by 2 people

    • Everything will be destroyed except His Face.

      so all the souls / spirits will be destroyed, ie, cease to exist?

      What about all the verses in the Qur’an and many Hadith that speak of people in paradise and unbelievers in hell?

      Allah has a face?

      Give the Surah and verse please.

      Like

    • is it the fully human mind asking or the fully fish mind which is the fully human mind asking?

      are you fully fish and fully human asking or just the fish asking?

      WHO is asking ?

      the same MIND which is human or the same MIND which is FISH?

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      immortal=does not die
      cease to exist=died

      ——————————–

      cease
      [sēs]

      VERB
      bring or come to an end:
      “the hostilities had ceased and normal life was resumed” · [more]

      synonyms: come to an end · come to a halt · end · halt · stop ·
      conclude · terminate · finish · draw to a close · be over · bring to an end · bring to a halt · end · halt · stop · conclude · terminate · finish · wind up · discontinue · suspend · break off · leave off

      Source: https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+is+cease&form=EDGNTC&qs=PF&cvid=fc4036a05fba44cb9f3f22804ac5b7d5&pq=what+is+cease
      ————————————

      exist
      ex·ist
      [iɡˈzist]

      VERB
      have objective reality or being:
      “remains of these baths still exist on the south side of the Pantheon” ·
      “there existed no organization to cope with espionage”
      synonyms: live · be alive · be living · be · happen
      live, especially under adverse conditions:
      “how am I going to exist without you?” · [more]

      synonyms: survive · subsist · live · support oneself · manage ·
      make do · get by · scrape by · make ends meet
      —————————————-

      Resurrect
      res·ur·rect
      [ˌrezəˈrekt]

      VERB
      restore (a dead person) to life:
      “he was dead, but he was resurrected”
      synonyms: raise from the dead · restore to life · revive
      revive the practice, use, or memory of (something); bring new vigor to:
      “the deal collapsed and has yet to be resurrected”
      synonyms: revive · restore · regenerate · revitalize ·
      breathe new life into · bring back to life · reinvigorate · resuscitate · rejuvenate · stimulate · reestablish · relaunch
      —————————–

      Ken Temple, you and Dr. James White seem not to understand English language or you want to dupe our intellect.

      Death means cease to exist. When the Quran said some people are in heaven it does not mean they did not die but continued to live. No that is not the case. Any Muslim and non Muslim rationalist knows death means ceasing to exist.

      After death and ceasing to exist, God resurrect the dead as the dictionary above indicates. Why would a dead be resurrected? Because the dead cease to exist until resurrected.

      You are claiming the soul/spirit did not die, well you do not understand your own language and you cannot confuse us. The spirit/soul is not a human being. So, the sould/spirit existence does not mean the human being exists. No. not at all unless you have sold your consciousness to continue worshiping a man and a dead God.

      Sorry for any hash language but sometimes we have to dialog that way in order you and Dr. James White to stop using this “cease to exist” nonsense. Death means cease to exist until resurrected and the existence of soul alone does not mean that human being exist until resurrected.

      Apple pie consists of apple and baked flour. You remove the apple from the baked flour and destroy it or eat it, the baked flour alone is not an apple pie but baked flour and the apple pie does not exist. Until new apple added to the baked flour.

      You visit burger king and ordered a beef burger and when the waitress served you it is only bread without anything in the bread. Will you consider it a beef burger?

      The same applies to soul/spirit. Soul/spirit alone is not a human being so it is disingenuous for someone like Dr. James White to keep deceiving us that death does not mean “cease to exist”. Yes, death means cease to exist until resurrected.

      I hope I put this nonsense to rest. Death indeed means cease to exist and it is only God who does not die. The Bible said God does not die, so defining death does not matter. You know that and Dr. James White knew that but you continue to throw dust into our eyes just to continue to worship a man Jesus as God. Your feelings/experience can be satanic in order to let you confuse other people because idol worshipers have the feelings/experience too.

      Thanks,

      Liked by 2 people

    • Ken Temple

      November 22, 2016 • 10:51 pm

      Everything will be destroyed except His Face.
      so all the souls / spirits will be destroyed, ie, cease to exist?
      What about all the verses in the Qur’an and many Hadith that speak of people in paradise and unbelievers in hell?
      Allah has a face?

      I say;
      Not like our face. Allah sees. Not like our eyes of course. Allah hears. Not ears like our ears. Not at all. Yes, everything will cease to exist before resurrection and the day of judgement. YES BEFORE THE DAY OF RESURRECTION AND THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT everything cease to exist except Allah alone who continue to exist and never cease to exist.

      If you think you soul/spirit alone means you exist, then you are joking.

      Why not have a dinner with your dead friend if you think he exists? Tell him Soul/spirit, you do not cease to exist and you are a human being come and lets have a dinner and see if the soul will mind you.

      Exist according to the dictionary above means alive. dead means not alive. Why confuse us that dead means alive? but dead really means not alive and not existing which means cease to exist.

      Ken, once again sorry for any hash language. I am frustrated and thinking Dr. James White and you are dishonest in trying to deceive us that death means alive.

      The Quran teaches of everything ceasing ot exist at a point in time or after death until resurrected. Those in heaven did died but resurrected to heaven

      Thanks.

      Liked by 2 people

    • “they don’t cease to exist.”

      A

      1 person, (divine nature) + (human nature)

      B

      1 person, – (divine nature) + (human nature)

      either you are having your god exist as “b” and god existing as “b” does CEASE to exist because he becomes LIFELESS

      or you have him EXISTING as “A”

      either way you look at it, your god BECOMES LIFELESS

      how can you believe 1 person is LIFELESS AND NOT LIFELESS @ the same time?

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      Chapter (21:35) sūrat l-anbiyāa (The Prophets)

      Sahih International: Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned.

      Pickthall: Every soul must taste of death, and We try you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned.

      Yusuf Ali: Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return.

      Shakir: Every soul must taste of death and We try you by evil and good by way of probation; and to Us you shall be brought back.

      Thanks,

      Like

    • “But even Islam teaches that the human souls / spirits go on after death.”

      since EVERYTHING will die, except God
      and everything is dependant UPON God for its existence

      who was god dependant on for his continued existence when he was dying and died?

      upon himself, then what kind of a god is this? god has a god to continue to live?

      he didn’t DIE, then “the word” did not DIE, i.e no incarnation

      his soul remained alive , but god is invisible anyway
      and “the word” is invisible

      so what does “death ” mean here?

      it is meaningless.

      unless “god the son” in his “invisible nature” experienced the PHYSICAL pains and pangs of death which would mean “the word” / “the son” became finite and created.

      who split the same person from the same person? god? god was splitting himself or did the romans and god split god from god?

      Like

  25. Christians who subscribe to the Incarnation doctrine are in deep trouble because they worship a deformed God. The epistle to the Philippians mentions the concept of kenosis, which means God emptied himself in order to become man. In other words, as the Christians themselves admit, God relinquished some of his attributes in order to become human! Whether it was ontological kenosis or functional kenosis it still compromises the transcendence of God in a very real sense if the Incarnation is taken literally and not metaphorically. Did God limit his attributes or give up some attributes? Either way it is problematic because it reduces God to a mere shell. The dilemma gets worse for Christians because they don’t believe God indwelled Jesus’ body like a cocoon but literally became the flesh itself. This means God, according to Christianity, actually died on the cross, the only possible escape from this problem is Nestorianism that divides Jesus into two distinguished persons, one died on the cross, the other remained alive the whole time. But since Christians believe Christ was one person with two natures they must believe both natures died on the cross simultaneously because they are inseparable and United together, otherwise it is committing Nestorianism to say only the humanity died, not the divinity. Also, if we only the humanity died then Christians have no Divine sacrifice but a limited and deficient sacrifice. Nestorians don’t face the dilemma of a crucified God because they claimed Jesus consisted of two persons inside one body. The Trinitarians have a serious problem on their hands. They have a deformed God who gave up some attributes to become man, they have distorted monotheism by the Trinity doctrine.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem, Allahumma Salli Ala Muhammed.

    “And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.” (Holy Qur’an 29:46)

    Allah be praised and Allah’s help is sought. Allah be glorified and exalted.

    So by mercy from Allah , [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude and harsh in heart, they would have fleed from about you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah . Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him]. (Holy Qur’an 3:159)

    Here are some thoughts. I do not know if they will be helpful with this exchange and/or for others who maybe reading this exchange.

    Many Muslims of the Sunni tradition say the following supplication when waking from sleep.

    “Praise is to Allah Who gave strength to my body and returned my soul to me and permitted me to remember Him.”

    “Praise is to Allah Who gives us life after He has caused us to die and to Him is the return.”

    It is thought that the soul leaves the body during sleep. At which point during sleep this happens, Allah knows best.

    If these supplications are traceable back to the Blessed Messenger (saw) it gives some food for thought. Technically Muslims could argue that every person has ‘died’ and been ‘resurrected’

    I believe that Ken has said:

    “The human body dies. Death is the separation of the spirit/soul from the body. the human spirit / soul lives on .”

    Here are some other interesting verses to ponder.

    “And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” (Holy Qur’an 2:154)

    “And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,” (Holy Qur’an 3:169)

    We are also told through oral traditions that we experience and are aware while in the graves. Now does that necessarily mean -with in the body itself (that is debatable) , or does this refer to a layer of reality or a realm not perceptible to us until ‘death’.

    Paul can correct me as I would defer to his knowledge of the English language. I have found it interesting that while at funerals people will speak and say “He WAS a good man.” They refer to the person in the past tense though the body is laying in front of them.

    So on these points. I feel that Ken and James White and those who argue as they do have some merit.

    Yet, the objections that are side have raised (albeit crudely at times) also deserves some merit.

    The death HE died, HE died to sin once for all; but the life HE lives, HE lives to God.
    (Romans 6:10)

    The object of the ‘HE’ no would argue is Christ. So when it says ‘He’ died it would have to refer to the human nature as death is admitted by all sides impossible for God.

    It is as impossible as the atheist argument “Can God make a stone he cannot move.” It represents an inbuilt logical fallacy.

    However; this does raise all sorts of theological queries and conundrums. Questions like:

    Did Jesus have a ‘human’ soul as well as the soul of the divine?

    Edward and Intellect both have advanced excellent points for consideration.

    So coming back to Romans 6:10 when it says ‘He’ died for us, it is ambiguous. Christians cannot say that either God the Father or God the Son died for us; since both the Father and the Son share divine essence.

    Because I am sure that Christians believe that they are commanded to speak truthfully about God.

    Yet, let us assume the Christian theological point, or more accurately the Christian theological point as being presented by Ken. If HE died as Romans 6:10 this has to be true at least in some sense.

    Ken has stated:

    “The human body dies. Death is the separation of the spirit/soul from the body. the human spirit / soul lives on .”

    “The God-man died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death. then Jesus raised Himself from the dead, (john 10:18), proving He was God in the flesh.”

    The paragraph above was particularly interesting to me. So this is a clear admission that when Jesus the ‘God-man’ died, that Jesus was not God incarnate for at least 3 days. It is also an ironic admission that God does not have power over death. Now at first blush this will seem ludicrous to the Christian, yet, you have to ask why did the deity need to separate from the body at death?

    Can God and death be unified? Is death a creation of the Creator? These are important points because you would have to wonder at what point did the deity ‘exit’ Christ?

    May apologies Ken for putting it as such but to some people in pensive reflection this may seem like a ruse.

    Did the deity leave Christ right before he breathed his last? At the point of breathing his last? Or did the deity leave Christ right after his death? Do we have scriptural evidence (Prima-Scriptura) or is this an extra-Biblical theological point?

    Like wise if Jesus rose himself from the dead this would be a cause for reflection. Was this ‘God the Son’ apart from Jesus the body who rose Jesus the body from the dead?

    Technically we cannot say that the God-man was in the tomb. That body or flesh for three days and three nights was no longer God, not even the God-man, not up at-least until the point of re-animation.

    Lastly, if the Son gets his life back, his position and authority with God the Father back, and God the Father gets his son back you have to ask what was sacrificed.

    “If even the moon is not bright and the stars are not pure in his eyes, How much less a mortal, who is but a maggot– a human being, who is only a worm!” (Job 25:5-6)

    Compared to a Holy and Righteous Creator, even the heavenly bodies have no splendor in comparison to the divine how much more humanity?

    To institute a system of ultimate forgiveness the whole scenario does seem like a cosmic spectacle.

    Liked by 3 people

    • How cool is this !!

      The Grandverbalizer19 (Jonathan ?) is back !! (“Primaquran” )

      Hey man! Salaam to you!

      How have you been ?

      Peace to you. John 14:27

      Liked by 1 person

    • Salaam! To you Ken! Praise be to God I have been keeping well. I hope that you , and your family are in the best of health and faith.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Thank you very much; the same for you.

      Like

    • Yes – “Intellect” needs to read these 2 verses in the Qur’an. Thanks for citing them Primaquran – I was also thinking of these verses after I read “intellect”‘s statement that death does mean to cease to exist, and I was very surprised.

      “And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” (Holy Qur’an 2:154)

      “And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,” (Holy Qur’an 3:169)

      Like

    • Assalamu’alaikum warahatullahi wabarakatuhu brother, thank you for your contribution.

      Always lucid and well thought out stuff from you. Just to let you know I follow your blog since grandverbalizer to primaquran. May Allah azza wa jalla protects you always.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Walakum salaam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh noble brother. Al hamdulillah! Ameen wa ‘ajmaeen. May Allah (swt) protect you, as well as everyone participating in this thread! 🙂

      Liked by 3 people

  27. If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about. C.S.Lewis

    Like

  28. Paul, compliments to you for trying to engage ‘Isma’eel Abu Adam.’

    May God guide him to use his mind fully (follow what is logical and thus to not follow the trinity) and to use his heart correctly (follow what is just and thus to not follow the absolutely unjust doctrines of original sin and vicarious atonement).

    He said,

    “Regarding my beliefs about Jesus, I am investigating and researching these issues as part of my process in returning to Christianity.”

    He is placing the cart before the horse.

    Should he not first come to a logical and consistent with Torah and Tanakh and common sense conclusion before he “returns” to Christianity?

    He is talking like he has already returned to Christianity….he needs to be careful of his eternal hereafter…it is terrible to lose one’s eternal hereafter for temporary emotional issues.

    Like

  29. Intellect wrote:

    Ken Temple, you and Dr. James White seem not to understand English language or you want to dupe our intellect.

    Death means cease to exist. When the Quran said some people are in heaven it does not mean they did not die but continued to live. No that is not the case. Any Muslim and non Muslim rationalist knows death means ceasing to exist.

    . . .

    I hope I put this nonsense to rest. Death indeed means cease to exist and it is only God who does not die.

    I am surprised that you say death means to cease to exist and I was very surprised to see that even Paul Williams seemed to approve of this comment.

    Paul, do you agree that death means “to cease to exist” ?

    Intellect does not seem to believe that the souls or spirits continue living.
    It is only the body that dies.

    If that is true, that means, according to “Intellect” that the Muslim Isa and Muhammad are non-existent and Muhammad cannot hear your Salavat (greetings and wishes for peace and blessing on him), nor any other prophet.

    Intellect seems to be saying that their souls will be recreated (?) at the day of judgement.

    “Death means cease to exist until resurrected and the existence of soul alone does not mean that human being exist until resurrected.”

    Is this a true Islamic belief?

    I am surprised at this new “revelation”.

    The soul and spirit of a person continues on. Death is the separation of the soul from the body. At the judgment and resurrection of the body – the bodies will be reunited with the spirit/soul and judged for the final judgement of eternity.

    Revelation 20:10-15

    Like

    • “Intellect does not seem to believe that the souls or spirits continue living.
      It is only the body that dies.”

      “If that is true, that means, according to “Intellect” that the Muslim Isa and Muhammad are non-existent and Muhammad cannot hear your Salavat (greetings and wishes for peace and blessing on him), nor any other prophet.”

      what do you know about “barzak” in relation to the DEAD ?

      Like

    • “barzak”
      برزخ

      We have this in Farsi also, which comes from Arabic, which technically is “limbo” or a middle state in between heaven and hell. It is the only concept available in these languages for the Roman Catholic concept of “purgatory” – a place of torment and cleansing until one gets cleansed of sins and then eventually, Insha’allah, goes to heaven.

      We use this concept to teach Farsi speakers what Roman Catholics teach about purgatory, but technically, it seems to mean “limbo”.

      Still, if “intellect” is right, then Muhammad cannot hear your greetings for blessings and peace with Allah.

      Like

    • can the dead hear

      Like

  30. Thanks for posting that. Listening. Yasir Qadhi is a very respectable Muslim and I have listened to the first few minutes and he has destroyed “intellect”‘s claim that death means to “cease to exist”; at least so far that I have listened, and Yasir Qadhi says that the Sahabah differed with each other over the issue whether the dead can hear in the graves.

    But so where is Muhammad? Is he still in the grave?

    Where is Jesus? He (his spirit? or all of him including body?) was taken to Allah (Surah 4:158) – doesn’t that mean Jesus is in heaven with Allah, according to Islamic view?

    Like

    • “Thanks for posting that. Listening. Yasir Qadhi is a very respectable Muslim and I have listened to the first few minutes and he has destroyed “intellect”‘s claim that death means to “cease to exist”; at least so far that I have listened, and Yasir Qadhi says that the Sahabah differed with each other over the issue whether the dead can hear in the graves.”

      listen all the way till the end because it DESTROYS your claim

      …then Muhammad cannot hear your greetings …

      like a fool you assumed that muhammad has supernatural ability to hear everything on his own.

      Like

    • No; my only point was that IF “intellect” is right and death means to cease to exist, THEN, Muhammad cannot hear your Salavat to him; but if death means the separation of the soul/spirit from the body, then it makes sense, given Islamic doctrine, that you pray to Muhammad for peace and blessings, etc.

      But in Christianity, we are not allowed to pray to the dead. Roman Catholics are wrong to pray to dead saints and Mary, etc.

      Roman Catholics and Shiites are similar in the sense of visiting graves and praying to the dead.

      Like

    • “believers are alive in heaven with God, their spirits and souls.”

      no this is a lie. the catholics say that if mary could hold and carry god, then mary is not dead and must have supernatural abilities beyond carrying and holding god.

      “But we are never allowed to pray to the dead.”

      you are allowed to pray to the dead because catholics have evidences from the nt that dead can hear and answer.

      “The Roman Catholics are wrong on that.”

      you are wrong in limiting your god and not allowing him to share his hearing and sight with others.

      “Our prayers go to God through Jesus,”

      catholics prayers go through mary and other saints. you have a human in the middle so do they .

      “who is the second person of the Holy Trinity,”

      mary CARRIED your god.

      “who is our mediator.”

      mary has been gifted with mediation.

      “Mary cannot hear nor answer prayers.”

      catholics say she can. don’t lie.

      ” She was a great and godly woman,”

      she carried your god.

      “a virgin until Jesus was born (Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-35),”

      she was protected from sin

      “but after Jesus was born, she had a normal marriage with Joseph as many passages in the NT (Jesus’ brother and sisters – Matthew 12, 13, Mark 3, Mark
      6, John 7, etc.) shows.”

      it is a lie that matthew says joseph was not having marital relations with joseph

      joseph was having marital relations with mary while jesus was in her womb

      “But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son.”

      we know that matthew is a liar. the jewish system would have allowed joseph to have “union” with her . matthew had to make up a lie.

      Like

    • catholic answers :
      And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

      In this context the “saints” (hagioi) are actually the members of the Church living on earth. In this passage, St. John (the author of Revelation) takes for granted those who are before the throne of the Lamb (i.e., God the Son) have the task of presenting the prayers (incense) of those on earth. This is intercession on the part of heavenly creatures on behalf of those still living on earth. (The 24 elders probably represent the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 Apostles; hence John is most likely referring here to human, not angelic, intercessors.)

      Let us now examine some possible objections to the Catholic (and Orthodox) practice of praying to the saints:

      Aren’t the saints dead? Didn’t God forbid contact with the dead?

      The saints are “dead” in the sense that they are no longer physically present on earth, but they are, in fact, very much alive in Heaven, in perfect union with their Creator. Jesus himself makes this very point when answering the Sadduccees:

      And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living (Mt. 22:32).

      end quote

      ken, since you worship a man and seek god through him, why the beef with the catholics?

      since god PRAYED through the flesh, why the beef with catholics?

      you have intermediaries within the trinity

      quote:
      How can the saints hear us?

      Although Rev. 5:8 indicates that those before the throne of the Lamb have knowledge of our prayers, a possible objection is that the saints, mere creatures, are not omniscient, and so they cannot hear all of our prayers.

      Catholics (and Orthodox) would reply that the saints, being creatures, are certainly not omniscient; that is, they do not have all knowledge, as their Creator does. They do, however, enjoy the direct vision of God, and this vision entails knowledge of all those things that are relevant to them.

      Moreover, time in Heaven does not pass in the same way as time on earth:

      But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day (2 Peter 3:8).

      For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night (Ps. 90:4).
      Since it is through their vision of God that the saints acquire their knowledge, they have no problem hearing our prayers, even if those prayers are numerous.

      Isn’t Jesus the One Mediator?

      A possible objection stems from the following passage in 1 Timothy:

      For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5).
      Catholics (and Orthodox) do not dispute the uniqueness of Christ’s mediation, which is based on the very Incarnation. Jesus’ unique status as the One Mediator does not, they would say, prevent God from establishing lesser mediations subordinate to the first. Jesus, as it were, bridges the gap, opened by the sin of Adam, between God and man; that does not prevent him from establishing other “bridges” between himself and the men still on earth. Jesus, in fact, clearly did this by establishing the Church, and the Apostles to lead it.

      In any case, St. Paul cannot be forbidding intercessory prayer (which is mediation of the secondary kind), because he has just commanded it in the immediately preceding passage. (See above.)

      Like

    • believers are alive in heaven with God, their spirits and souls. But we are never allowed to pray to the dead. The Roman Catholics are wrong on that. Our prayers go to God through Jesus, who is the second person of the Holy Trinity, who is our mediator. Mary cannot hear nor answer prayers. She was a great and godly woman, a virgin until Jesus was born (Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-35), but after Jesus was born, she had a normal marriage with Joseph as many passages in the NT (Jesus’ brother and sisters – Matthew 12, 13, Mark 3, Mark 6, John 7, etc.) shows.

      Like

    • “Our prayers go to God through Jesus, who is the second person of the Holy Trinity, who is our mediator.”

      Oh the nonsense

      Liked by 2 people

    • Muslims pray directly to God.

      Like

    • one part of god needs to mediate through another part of god. while @ the same time each have access to the same nature lol.

      i thought all this time that mediator is lesser than the one who is being sought.

      Liked by 1 person

  31. “No; my only point was that IF “intellect” is right and death means to cease to exist, THEN, Muhammad cannot hear your Salavat to him;

    but if death means the separation of the soul/spirit from the body, then it makes sense, given Islamic doctrine, that you pray to Muhammad for peace and blessings, etc.
    But in Christianity, we are not allowed to pray to the dead. Roman Catholics are wrong to pray to dead saints and Mary, etc.
    Roman Catholics and Shiites are similar in the sense of visiting graves and praying to the dead.”

    Yasir Qadhi proved in the video that the dead do not hear. so this DEMOLISHES your lies that Muslims pray to MUHAMMAD

    MAKING a prayer FOR is not praying TO

    it is your pagan NT which the catholics use to go to graves and call out to dead and buried saints

    the “passion narrative” is an inspiration to SEEk the dead

    just go and google why catholic SEEK intermediaries and your NT is used as proof text.

    all this business about having meals with the dead and tombs are jewish and pagan practices practiced .

    Like

  32. One think is clear from Yasir Qadhi’s lecture – it really shows why Shiites go to graves and pray there – it makes sense, based on what Qadhi has said. They have a lot of evidence for that, in the various traditions.

    Very interesting.

    So where is Jesus and Muhammad?

    Is Muhammad still in the grave? (his soul with his body)

    Where is Jesus?

    Is He in heaven with Allah ? (Surah 4:158) ?

    Like

    • ‘If only my people KNEW that my Lord has forgiven me, and made me among the honored ones! Because of my faith in my Lord and my belief in the Messengers.’

      wherever there are, what we can see is that communication between them and us is cut off.

      “Is He in heaven with Allah ? (Surah 4:158) ?”

      where did you pull “with ” from ?

      Like

  33. assuming a humans continued existence after his death is dependant on God,
    is 1 person, 2 natures continued existence dependant on God?

    since your god BECAME created , you cannot deny the possibility that his existence as a human being did not exist before it was CREATED

    since 1 person (god) is with divine powers and experiences human DEATH and suffering, then this can only be derived from what he had from all eternity and that his his divine powers

    so do you agree that 1 person, 2 natures CONTINUED existence was DEPENDANT on god i.e

    fully god and fully human FULLY experienced the pains and pangs of death @ the same time?

    Like

  34. David Wood shows from the Sahih Hadith and also by Muslims teaching people to make proper Salaat, that Muslims do both – they pray for Allah to send blessings and peace on the Prophet and other Prophets and also they are taught to directly pray to the Prophet Muhammad.

    Like

    • Ken Temple

      David Wood is not a scholar. Atahiya is

      Walaikum Assalam!

      The whole tashhud is as follows in phonetic:
      At-Tahiy-yatu lil-lahi was-salawatu wat-tay yibatu, As-Salamy ‘alika ay-yuhan-nabiy-yu wa rahma tullahi wa barakatu, As salamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil-la his-saliheen , Ash hadu al la ilaha illal lahu, wa ash hadu an-na Muhammadan ‘abduhu wa rasuluh

      The translation is as follows:
      All compliments, all physical prayer , and all monetary worship are for Allah. Peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah’s mercy and blessings. Peace be on us and on all righteous slaves of Allah . I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah. I bear witness that Muhammad (peace be upon him ) is his slave and Messenger.

      The meanings of individual words that you asked for is as follows:

      At-Tahiy-yatu = All compliments
      lil-lahi = are for Allah
      was-salawatu = all physical prayer
      wat-tay yibatu = and all monetary worship

      Wassalam

      Ken Temple, David Wood

      Peace be on you(Mohammed) Ken you said is speaking to Mohammed so in Salat. And so what?

      Who tells David Wood that, we speak to only Allah during Salaat? Who taught David Wood that? Where did he learn that?

      We can talk to others in Salaat as it says

      Peace be on us and on all righteous slaves of Allah

      in the same sentence where we spoke to Mohammed, we spoke to us and spoke directly to all righteous people.

      Peace be on all righteous people
      Peace be on us
      Peace be on Prophet Mohammed who is the last prophet. What is wrong about this? David Wood is losing credibility because he and Nabeel Quraish lied like Ergun Carner to dupe Christians and empty Christian pockets with lies.

      Now, he is coming with something he does not know. Who tells him, we cannot pray to righteous people in prayers? Where did he get that nonsense from?

      Peace be on someone one in our prayers is a praying to the fellow. We spoke to ourselves in the same sentence and spoke to others. What the heck wrong is about that?

      Notice. We did not say Mohammed save us. We did not say Kaaba save us. The Jews kissing the western wall in Jerusalem and bowing in front of the wall is idolatry? No. it is not idolatry and Muslims kissing the wall Abraham and his son build is not idolatry.

      Thanks

      Like

    • “Peace be on you(Mohammed) Ken you said is speaking to Mohammed so in Salat. And so what?”

      right at the end one wishes salaam upon himself. these missionaries are nutjobs man. nutters.

      Liked by 2 people

    • This just highlights how Christian polemicists have nothing left to offer but lies and distortion. They are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. pitiful.

      Liked by 1 person

  35. Please, please, please.

    Decide who is deceptive, disingenuous and dishonest?

    Paul Williams
    November 22, 2016 • 9:52 pm
    Ken you believe Jesus is God. Did God die on the cross?

    Ken Temple
    November 22, 2016 • 9:59 pm
    already answered all that. The God-man died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death. then Jesus raised Himself from the dead, (john 10:18), proving He was God in the flesh.

    Paul Williams

    Did God die?

    Ken Temple
    The God-Man died.

    I say;
    God is not same as God-Man. So God did not die for your sins. God-Man is a hybrid creature.

    Apple pie is not a baked flour.

    If you order a burger at burger King you will not accept a bread.

    We will not accept your God-Man.

    The question is did God died?

    As deceptive, disingenuous and dishonest you will not answer unless bringing God-Man. Paul did not say did God man died? but the question was did God died?

    Honest answer will crush Christianity except dishonest answer.

    Thanks.

    Like

  36. Salaam(peace) Prophet
    Salaam(peace) us
    Salaam(peace) righteous

    in the same prayer and this David and Nabeel who does not know his former religion(Qadiani) cannot go to Syria and fight think they have some thing against Islam?

    They are pathetic. Ken, you have shocked and surprised me for following these cheap people who do not think before attacking.

    Thanks.

    Like

    • Honesty, Honesty, Honesty

      Paul Williams

      Ken, did God die?

      Ken Temple
      The God-Man died

      Paul Williams
      Ken, did God die?

      Ken Temple
      The God-Man died

      What a dishonest answer. Will you accept this;

      Ken Temple
      Did the Elephant die?

      Hindu priest
      The God-Monkey died

      If you will not accept the Hindu priests Monkey-God as God, then you are very dishonest.

      Again, will you accept this;

      Ken Temple

      Are you are man or woman?

      Transgender man
      I am a woman or Man-Woman and will visit both men and women washrooms.

      You Christians are the ones very critical about gay and transgender saying it is against creation but forgetting that your God-Man is against creation as well and is the similar like them.

      Why will your God not happy with a man he created as pure man for the man to be a man-woman and your God turns into God-Man?

      We ask you about God and you are talking about God Man. I asked for jam in my bread and you are providing me with a mixture of jam and peanut butter. Some people say Jam-peanut butter is delicious, I am sorry I am allergic to peanut butter and I want a pure Jam without a trace of peanut butter because a mixture of jam and peanut butter is not jam but mixture.

      You worship God. Did God die? We do not believe in God-Man because you will also not believe in Elephant-God so be fair.

      With regards to David Wood, if you want respect stay away from him other wise you will continue to disgrace yourself like how you did today. Your comment here seems you are more learned than him and so stay away from him and do your own research. Or better take his message and research further before using it. An advice to a friend.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

  37. Ken Temple

    “there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
    “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
    “Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
    “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
    “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
    “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
    “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
    “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60

    Where the heck is God-Man here? and you cannot find the word God-Man in the whole Bible. You are dishonest in bringing God-Man when you were asked about God.

    Paul Williams asked about God like in the above verses.

    You added man and made it God-Man and Paul Williams dropped the man because you added it in there. You turn to accuse him of dishonesty. Ken you added the man to Make it God-Man but Paul Williams asked you about God as in the above verses which has no man in it to make it God-Man.

    So, be honest. Did God die? take the above verses into consideration that has no man in them.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Paul Williams
    Ken, did God die?

    Ken Temple
    The God-Man died

    Paul Williams
    Ken, did God die?

    Ken Temple
    The God-Man died
    ———————————————————–

    Reverend Ken Temple, we want you to officiate our marriage.

    Ken Temple
    Marriage?

    lesbians?
    Same-sex marriage

    Ken Temple
    Marriage?

    gay men
    gay-marriage

    Ken Temple
    Marriage?

    Transgender
    Transgender-marriage

    Ken Temple
    I do not believe in same-sex and or transgender marriages and their life styles

    lesbians
    Why? Rev Temple?

    Ken Temple
    Because it is against creation and God created man and woman and marriage is between man and a woman but not man and man, woman and woman, transgender etc. so I cannot officiate gay-marriage.

    Gay, transgender and lesbians

    But, Rev. Ken the same God changed Himself from God to man or God-Man when the whole Bible referred to Him as God and never God-Man and have verses to prove

    ————————-

    “there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
    “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
    “Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
    “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
    “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
    “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
    “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
    “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60

    Ken Temple
    You are comparing God with man.

    Lesbians
    But Rev. Temple you said God became man and God is God-Man? When asked whether God died, you add man to that. Is it not disingenuous to add man to God and accuse us of comparing God to Man?

    You added man to God or said your God Jesus is 100% God and 100% man and blaming us for comparing a man to man?

    Ken Temple
    God can do whatever he wants.

    Transgender

    Like becoming a Hindu Monkey-God?

    Ken Temple

    ?????????????????????????????????

    Thanks.

    Like

  39. edward

    Ken asked:
    “Is He in heaven with Allah ? (Surah 4:158) ?”

    Edward wrote:
    where did you pull “with ” from ?

    بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا

    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
    Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

    It seems to me that is the logical conclusion of “Allah raised him to Himself”. “to Himself” means that He is with Allah now, doesn’t it?”

    After one goes to someone else, and that someone else is in heaven, then it seems logical to understand that that person is now with that person.

    edward wrote:
    wherever there are, what we can see is that communication between them and us is cut off.

    Except in Salaah, you do greet him directly at least once, so that is a form of direct communication.

    Like

    • Paul, where is Jesus according to Surah 4:158?

      Doesn’t that imply He is with Allah in paradise?

      If so, then Jesus went there about 600 years before Muhammad.

      If Muhammad has yet to go there (still in the grave ?), then it is even more years than that, and the Qur’an of Surah 4:158 is higher than that Hadith you quoted.

      Like

    • “It seems to me that is the logical conclusion of “Allah raised him to Himself”. “to Himself” means that He is with Allah now, doesn’t it?”

      After one goes to someone else, and that someone else is in heaven, then it seems logical to understand that that person is now with that person.”

      being in the protection of Allah
      being provided sustenance by Allah

      but there is nothing in “to Himself” implies that person is physically with Allah or Allah is in His created heaven .

      when jews bringing their meat sacrifices to yhwh, then this meant yhwh was a physical human being contained in his temple? or was ghost of yhwh contained in temple?

      “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

      “to Me” can imply a number of different things.

      “Except in Salaah, you do greet him directly at least once, so that is a form of direct communication.”

      the prophet would have said “wa3alaykum salaam” everytime when he reached : “assalamu ayuhanabiy”

      did he?

      the companions did not feel the need to change direct address
      (i think their is a report which says it was changed to the 3rd person but i don’t know if it is authentic)

      and if the prophet is INFORMED then he is not “present in his hearing”

      Like

    • everyone will be returned to God

      “Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.”

      “to Him”
      so one cannot assume here that “to Him” (first person illayya) implies

      1. in heaven
      2. physically in heaven with God.

      “to Him” can imply different things.

      Like

    • so what does “to Him” mean?
      Where is Jesus now?
      Where is Muhammad now?

      According to “Intellect”, they ceased to exist, even their souls ceased to exist – an amazing admission – and I think I understand you guys as saying that Allah will re-constitute (re-create them based on original creation/DNA ?) people body and soul at the resurrection of all the dead and judgement day, right?

      Like

    • but Primaquran (Grandverbalizer19) gave a better answer. One of the verses was Surah 3:169

      What about Surah 3:169 ?
      And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,

      “with” !!!

      the martyrs are with Allah!
      They got there before Jesus and Muhammad, according to this verse and others like it.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      November 24, 2016 • 1:59 pm

      so what does “to Him” mean?
      Where is Jesus now?
      Where is Muhammad now?
      According to “Intellect”, they ceased to exist, even their souls ceased to exist – an amazing admission – and I think I understand you guys as saying that Allah will re-constitute (re-create them based on original creation/DNA ?) people body and soul at the resurrection of all the dead and judgement day, right?

      I say;
      Be honest and do not twist and put words in my mouth. I did not say what you said above. I said, your soul/spirit is not a human being. All human beings and creatures cease to exist when a horn is blown at the end of the day or day of judgment. The angel of death himself will did and cease to exist and anything cease to exist except Almighty God alone who is only existence that exists before all these creations. Then there will be resurrection and we are resurrected back into existence. Reverend Ken Temple, this is what I said and do not twist it like when Paul Williams asked.

      Ken, did God die?

      You twisted God and said God-Man. We do not want that dishonesty here.

      With regards to DNA, it is recent discovery and I do not know how God will do His resurrection and Allah created us from nothing and can cause us to cease to exist and resurrect us back again like how he did to Jesus. When He said Be and it is.

      I remembered talking with you some time ago that we will be resurrected based on our finger print or DNA but that is just what I thought but I do not know how God will do that but I know it is simple for God to make us cease to exist and resurrect us back to life. Like how when we low level format the our hard disk partition, there is no operating system exists. We can then make operating system exist again on the same partition.

      If human can do this, or can let something not to exist at a particular place and later makes it exist at the same place, then it is simple for God to do that.

      Ken Temple

      November 24, 2016 • 2:19 pm

      but Primaquran (Grandverbalizer19) gave a better answer. One of the verses was Surah 3:169
      What about Surah 3:169 ?
      And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,

      I say;
      It is just a consolation because the verse clearly started with “And never think of those who have been killed…………

      The verse itself said the have been killed i.e. they are dead. And the consolation comes that they are alive with their Lord. They have been resurrected with their Lord or their soul/spirit is with their Lord did not mean they did not die and cease to exist. You visit their cemetery and the body is decayed and non existent means they do not exist.

      May be they are resurrected in heaven which is possible or their soul/spirit is with God which is another possibility.

      Your soul/spirit cannot hear, eat or talk so you do not exist when you die. We do console the relatives of the dead by saying “They are in Jannat firdaus and they never die” knowing very well the person is dead but it is metaphorical to mean there is live after death.

      Life after death does not mean no death(cease to exist) and resurrection.

      The Bible said a soul can be destroyed. I did not say a soul/spirit are destroyed but what I said a soul/spirit is not a human being for it cannot hear, eat or see. Call the soul of your departed for a dinner if you can.

      Thanks,

      Like

    • Hard to understand, you are.

      Like

  40. Ken Temple
    God can do whatever he wants.

    “Intellect” –
    Transgender

    “Intellect” –
    Like becoming a Hindu Monkey-God?

    Except revelation (the revealed truths of God written Scriptures) only teaches that the 2nd person of the Trinity became a human being, a man, and without ceasing to be God also.

    John 1:1-5

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
    5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    John 1:14 – “And the Word became flesh . . . ”

    John 17:5 -” O Father, restore Me to the glory that I had with You before the World was.”

    Philippians 2:5-8

    5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7 but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
    8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    Hebrews 1:1-3, 6, 8, 10-12

    God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
    2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
    3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

    “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

    8 But of the Son He says,

    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

    10 And,

    “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
    11 They will perish, but You remain;
    And they all will become old like a garment,
    12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
    Like a garment they will also be changed.
    But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.”

    when you add goofy things like Hindu-monkey god or Hallie Salassie, etc. since there is nothing in revelational scriptures about those things, then your constant repeating that stuff is just really goofy.

    The Scriptures clearly teach the incarnation, the Deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, the atonement for sin, the resurrection, and the only way to be saved from sin is through repentance and faith in the Messiah Jesus, as God the eternal Son/ Word and Lord.

    Like

    • Actually the bible is a library of differ t books which teach diverse and contradictory things about Jesus, salvation, christology etc

      Liked by 1 person

    • those verses above all agree and harmonize with each other on the topic we are discussing. 3 of those human authors agreeing with one another. Harmony, unity.

      8 or 9 authors who agree with one another is more powerful testimony in court of law than one man’s alone claim.

      Like

    • “or Hallie Salassie, etc. since there is nothing in revelational scriptures about those things”

      Actually the Rastafarians justify their belief with reference to Bible too. Your particular brand of goofy faith is not better than any other goofies based on the “Bible”. Repeating your claims until the cows come home do not make them true.

      No thinking person will fall for your empty claims, you are wasting your time.

      Liked by 2 people

    • quote:
      Many translations have “O God” in Psalm 45:6 with footnotes to the phrase.
      NRSV
      b.Psalm 45:6 Or Your throne is a throne of God, it
      c.Hebrews 1:8 Or God is your throne
      NIV
      c.Psalm 45:6 Here the king is addressed as God’s representative.

      The context of Psalm 45 is that it is a love song to the king, not to Jesus. See

      Psalm 45:16 (NIV)
      16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers;
      you will make them princes throughout the land.
      Are you going to argue that Jesus will have sons to take his place?

      Without the “O God”, the trinitarian interpretation falls apart. Your belief system is in shambles.

      Like

    • another quote ken :

      Do you need Psalm 45 to be read to you? You are reading very selectively and ignoring the text that kills your belief.
      That is the cognitive dissonance at work.
      See Psalm 45:9-11 about the queen. Verse 11 says “the king will desire your beauty.” Jesus would pluck his eye out. Verse 9 has the queen in “the gold of Ophir”. Jesus seemed to prefer more humble women. OTOH, why would Jesus’ queen wear heavenly pavement?
      Since the passage is clearly not about Jesus, the author of Hebrews was wrong. Verse 16 is not about Jesus, either. The throne of God was just what the Hebrews called their human king’s throne.
      Therefore, Hebrews 1 does not support the Trinity belief.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I already know that about Psalm 45. A lot of OT prophesies function like that; they have an immediate context of the time of the OT writing; and they have a NT meaning of a prophesy of the Messiah. Messiah means “the anointed one” = King. The one who would come from the line of David and be the Messiah, the suffering servant of Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12.

      Lots of OT passages have double meanings, a near application and prophetic far application, especially Messianic prophesy.

      Also, the NT writers – including the author of Hebrews, whether it was Barnabas, or Luke, or Silas, or Apollos; they have authority to bring out that Messianic meaning.

      The Messiah will have a spiritual bride-queen also – the Church – the people of God from all nations. Revelation 5:9; 1 Peter 2:9-10; Matthew 21:43-45; Revelation 21:1-5; Ephesians 5:25, 32.

      Here is a good explanation of the Hebrews 1 context:
      https://carm.org/heb-18-and-psalm-456-god-thy-throne

      Like

    • About Psalm 45 – do you accept that a man can be called “God” yet not in fact be Yahweh?

      Like

    • “Lots of OT passages have double meanings, a near application and prophetic far application, especially Messianic prophesy.”

      you have just confirmed that you need to go and see a doctor.

      Like

  41. edward

    Thanks for your correction above.

    In the tashhud we did not pray TO Mohammed, TO ourselves and TO righteous people as Ken Temple, David Wood and Nabeel Quraish want us to believe but we prayed FOR Mohammed, FOR ourselves and FOR righteous people by saying Salaam (peace) directly. We pray to Allah Alone but in prayers we do pray for others. After tashhud we did pray FOR Abraham and ask God to Bless us and the Prophet like how God Blessed Prophet Abraham and his family. There is nothing wrong with this.

    The whole tashhud is as follows in phonetic:
    At-Tahiy-yatu lil-lahi was-salawatu wat-tay yibatu, As-Salamy ‘alika ay-yuhan-nabiy-yu wa rahma tullahi wa barakatu, As salamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil-la his-saliheen , Ash hadu al la ilaha illal lahu, wa ash hadu an-na Muhammadan ‘abduhu wa rasuluh

    The translation is as follows:
    All compliments, all physical prayer , and all monetary worship are for Allah. Peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah’s mercy and blessings. Peace be on us and on all righteous slaves of Allah . I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah. I bear witness that Muhammad (peace be upon him ) is his slave and Messenger.

    Reply to primaquran

    The Quran states “every soul shall taste death” so Dr. James White and Ken Temple saying when one dies, he is still alive is wrong in both Judaism, Christianity, Islam and English language.

    God is consoling us when He said your loved one is in heaven and is not dead but you perceived not. It is just like me consoling you on your departed relative by saying “Oh they are in Jannat, they never die”. Do you think, I mean your relation never died? No. It is metaphorical, because every soul shall taste death.

    Those in heaven did died but they were resurrected. If you die you cease to exist and become lifeless. A body will decay and does not exist anymore. A soul alone is not a human being.

    In Islamic literature, before the day of resurrection, nothing cease to exist when the horn is blown everything cease to exist except Allah alone. Even the Angels cease to exist. They angel of death will die and cease to exist. Then there will be resurrection and all exist again. This is the Majesty of Allah at display. He is only and Alone God said the Bible and He continue to be only and alone. We the creations can cease to exist if Allah wills but He Allah does not cease to exist.

    In the Bible a soul can be destroyed.

    Ken Temple, death means cease to exist. If you think your soul/spirit is a human being then you do not understand English language. A soul/spirit is not a human being. If someone is in heaven, he might have been resurrected. That is what resurrection is there for. To restore you back to live from dead. Before resurrection, a human being seizes to exist.

    Visit cemetery and see a body is decayed and does not exist anymore. Some cemeteries have buildings and subways on them and all the buried bodies cease to exist. Their souls/spirit alone is not a human being and the souls do not hear, see or eat until resurrected.

    If Jesus was alive after he died why was he resurrected(restored back to live)? because he did not exist anymore until resurrected.

    If you format your hard drive, your windows 10 operating system does not exist on your hard drive until you restore it. You will be fool to tell a computer tech support that you formatted the whole partition of your hard drive but your operating system exist on the partition without restoring it.

    Do not blame me for comparing God and man, all these is because you said God became man. All these argument would not have been necessary had you followed the Bible that said God is not like his creation and there is nothing like God. If the Bible said there is nothing like God how can He become a man(Jesus)?

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

    • bro intellect, excellent reply .

      Like

    • the situation becomes like this with these people

      same person dies/does not die

      same person suffers/does not suffer

      same person incarnates/does not incarnate

      same person is sent/ is not sent

      if the same person sees, hears and talks like a human, then he is using divine nature, just like a human would use his human brain had he started thinking like a fish in a fish tank.

      so they should admit that say that god through his divine nature said ” my soul is deeply in trouble”

      after all “god can do anything”

      Liked by 1 person

  42. Burhanuddin1

    November 24, 2016 • 12:18 pm
    “or Hallie Salassie, etc. since there is nothing in revelational scriptures about those things”
    Actually the Rastafarians justify their belief with reference to Bible too. Your particular brand of goofy faith is not better than any other goofies based on the “Bible”. Repeating your claims until the cows come home do not make them true.
    No thinking person will fall for your empty claims, you are wasting your time

    I say;
    Thanks for clarifying to Ken Temple what I always meant.
    Ken Temple sometimes behaves like David Wood. Rastarians uses the Bible like the Trinitarians to justify their God-Man Haile Selaissie but Ken Temple does not know that. Both do not have the name of their God-Men as Gods in the Old Testament and any time he brings God-Man, I will refer him to the emperor.

    With regards to Hindu’s Sai Baba, the Hindus have their scriptures too. If your scripture or my scripture said there is a possibility of God-Man, the Hindus scripture also said there is a possibility of God-Man too. How did Ken Temple not know if God did not a point in time appear as Hindu God?

    The voodoos too have their scripture and there is a possibility of snake God and it is the same possibilities with Trinitarian Christians because they believed God can become a creature or half creature and they are all idolaters;

    The Bible clearly said God is one, only and alone and nothing else. It is in the Bible so all the Trinitarian believe of God becoming creature is like the idol worshipers I kept worshiping.

    Thanks.

    Like

    • correction
      is like the idol worshipers I kept mentioning.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      November 24, 2016 • 12:07 pm

      Ken Temple

      God can do whatever he wants.
      “Intellect” –

      Transgender
      “Intellect” –

      Like becoming a Hindu Monkey-God?
      Except revelation (the revealed truths of God written Scriptures) only teaches that the 2nd person of the Trinity became a human being, a man, and without ceasing to be God also

      I say;
      With all due respect my dear Reverent Ken Temple, the Hindus also think like you that their scripture is revelation(the revealed truth of God written in Scriptures) only teaches that the Monkeys shitting in the streets of India are God-Monkeys.

      Buddhists, Voodoos, Sikhs, etc. all believe just like you believed their scriptures are the revelations from God.

      You are arguing like a child here. None of us went to heaven with the pictures on our cell phones to receive our revelations but it is a believe we all have.

      You remember I shut the hell out of your mouths some time ago by claiming that “Christians knew for sure they are going to heaven” . Christians used to tell lies like this without evidence. This claim needs evidence and they do not have one.

      Give me a picture of you and angels in paradise. You cannot and I cannot and no one can, so our faiths are believe.

      You believe you will go to heaven just like anyone in his faith but do not lie to say you are the only one who is guaranteed heaven. Everyone is guaranteed heaven but no evidence of visiting heaven with pictures as evidence to prove.

      In the same vain, your scripture is not the only scripture in this world. You believed it is the true revelation others believed their scriptures are the true revelation.

      You see how I am behaving like an adult but you are behaving like a child holding your toy and believing your toy is the only toy or a bad parent who say to others my child is better than yours.

      We do not do that here but we are comparing faiths based on reasons, truths, research and proof but not “My scripture is the only true” without evidence.

      The thing is there is the possibility of God becoming a creature in Trinitarian concept and that is idolatry and it does not matter the scripture but the concept.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 2 people

  43. I agree with James White that Nabeel should more clear about his former faith, the Ahmadiyeh sect (Qadiani). He has admitted that; but not as clear all the time for the sake of Sunnis who find examples where he leaves that out.

    Like

    • His whole ministry is based on a lie Ken, that he was a Muslim.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      November 24, 2016 • 2:23 pm
      I agree with James White that Nabeel should more clear about his former faith, the Ahmadiyeh sect (Qadiani). He has admitted that; but not as clear all the time for the sake of Sunnis who find examples where he leaves that out

      I say;
      Why will you not admit he lied like Ergun Carner to empty the pockets of ignorant Christians?

      He said his former faith(Qadiani) if he remained would have sent him to fight in Syria and that is a lie that can be undone. Admit it and write a petition to sack him from his ministries where they keep using the money of unsuspecting Christians to be buying him expensive suits like Creflo A. Dollar, Joel Olsteen, Benny Hinn, TD Jake, Pastor Eddie Lee Long etc.

      You continue to support him because you use him as a tool to discredit Islam as a former “Muslim” “who knows the religion” He does not even know his former religion will get instant death when he dare visit Syria to fight. That is why David Wood convinced him to Christianity. He does not know his former religion.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • His statement that if remained a Muslim was based on in his understanding After studying the other Jihadi texts that Ahmadiyehs never study or read (some are in Sahih Al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, etc. ) – He did not mean if he had remained a consistent Ahmadiyeh and ignorant of all the Hadiths that seem to inform the modern Jihadi view point.

      Like

    • No, he is not like Ergun Caner at ALL.
      Nor any of the other heretics of greed that you mention. They don’t even teach Christianity – they are charlatans.

      Like

    • soon you will make jay smith part of your canon.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ken Temple

      November 24, 2016 • 3:25 pm

      His statement that if remained a Muslim was based on in his understanding After studying the other Jihadi texts that Ahmadiyehs never study or read (some are in Sahih Al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, etc. ) – He did not mean if he had remained a consistent Ahmadiyeh and ignorant of all the Hadiths that seem to inform the modern Jihadi view point.

      I say;
      Any faction in Syria will kill him instantly when he visits as his former faith(Qadiani) to fight. So he lied or he is a fool to lie and said he knows his former faith(Qadiani)

      Dr. Ergun Carner lied and knows he lied but Dr. Nabeel Quraish according to Ken did not know he lied and that is serious than Ergun Carner.

      Ergun Carner knows he is lying just like Aayan Ali, Kamal Salim, Shoebat Walid etc. to get money from lazy Christians who will not research themselves but Nabeel does not know he is lying to get money?

      A lunatic who knows he is ill can be treated but a lunatic who knows he is not ill is difficult to treat. Nabeel is a liar and has done so many lies. Ken like other Christians who voted for Trump do not care but will support anyone against what they do not want and that is dangerous.

      We can have liars and brutal dictators all over the world if we follow Christians like Ken Temple.

      Poor Paul Williams, I wish I can get you a designer suit for your truth on all religions and you do not get a cent from anyone. Some times you rebuke us for not saying what is right here.

      Keep doing it, Allah will reward you. Allah’s reward is better than this designer suits Nabeel is having and Ken Temple and other Christians are supporting that.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • ken, jay smith veiled attacks on yhwh of old testament means jay would have sold his soul to clever marcion.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I agree with Dr. White that Jay Smith is too dismissing of OT texts when brought up and seems to totally avoid them.

      Like

    • he would have sold his soul to marcion. marcion was too clever.

      Like

    • “His whole ministry is based on a lie Ken, that he was a Muslim.”

      a bit like paul, when he was interrogated he pretended to be observant jew under the law.

      Liked by 1 person

  44. The theology of Allah and other doctrines are the same.

    The only real difference is that, if I understand it right; is that Mirza Ahmad claimed he was the incarnation of the Messiah and Mehdi, so that there is no more return of the Mehdi or the Messiah to earth, etc. ? That he was the final manifestation of that end-times justice kind of thing.

    But they are also peaceful and don’t do Jihad stuff like Salafis / Wahabis / Al Qaeda / Isis, Hamas, boko Haram, etc.

    for that, they have my respect and all other Muslims should appreciate that aspect of them.

    Like

    • I wish your Pentagon would do less ‘jihadi stuff’, the world would be a safer more peaceful place

      Liked by 1 person

    • If all the radical Islamic groups that I mentioned above would stop first, maybe they would not have to do anything justice in trying to stop them. They are the ones who are the main problems, IMO. (though I don’t agree with everything that the west or USA or Israel does, overall they are acting in response to the dangerous Islamic text-based terrorism of recent 30 + years. They may interpret Qur’an and Hadith and Sira and Tafsirs and Tarikh and narrations wrong, but they are motivating too many Muslims (even if only 5 or 10 percent, etc.) to do those evil things.

      Like

    • Actually it was the US invasion of Iraq that brought chaos and terror to the region.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Granted; that was a bad mistake.

      But later, under General Patraus, they at least had the situation somewhat stabilized; but Obama ruined it by letting Al Baghdadi out of prison and not keeping a basic status of forces there; and also the Malaki Shitte government was very bad and not fair to the Sunni tribal areas or Sunnis in general.

      Like

    • But Al Qadeda and other Jihadi groups are older than 2003 Iraqi invasion.

      And the Shiite version of Khomeini government of militant Islam and spreading Jihad is older – 1979 – much older than 2003 Iraqi invasion.

      Like

    • There was no al Qaeda in Iraq before the US invasion. Your government lied to the world about that. The results were far worse than any terrorist group

      Like

    • but Al Qaeda already existed as a world wide, global Jihadi movement – Abu Mosab Al Zaqarwi was a Jordanian who went to Iraq to cause violence and havoc. The ideology spreads in Islamic areas without formal connections.

      They didn’t deliberately lie, but got bad information – they relied on the Kurdish exiles too much who were angry at Sadaam Hussein, etc. they saw it as at least justice for playing cat and mouse for 13 years; and injustices against both Kurds and Shiites in the south. Al Qaeda and isis types of ideology easily spreads to other Islamic areas without formal connections.

      Like

    • Ken you are naive, your government created lies to cover up real reason to invading Iraq: oil and Israel. The US is directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      But Al Qadeda and other Jihadi groups are older than 2003 Iraqi invasion.
      And the Shiite version of Khomeini government of militant Islam and spreading Jihad is older – 1979 – much older than 2003 Iraqi invasion.

      I say;
      Crusaders killing everyone in Europe until stopped by force and Protestant Christians killing Catholics in the USA and refusing Jewish ship entry in the USA, killing slaves and force converting All of them is much older than the above. They use the Bible as Jesus said

      “bring my enemy and kill him in front of me”

      A man giving a parable to kill because he cannot do that under Roman soldiers except to call a woman dog and ransack peoples tables and destroy them is a parable to kill and the Christians used it and they voted for Donald Trump who grabs Married Women P***** and against Christ to ban all Muslims and kill the more he can.

      The above is created to defend themselves against the Christians.

      Thanks

      Liked by 2 people

    • though I don’t agree with Donald Trump and his pride and immorality and ethics are terrible; he did say “temporary” ban on new Muslim immigrants “until we can figure out what the hell is going on” – after that, he backed off of that and now says “a temporary ban on areas that are problems with Islamic leaning terrorists, like Syria, Iraq, Lybia, etc.

      Even though he is not a Christian, we should still be accurate on what he actually said and meant and his clarifications.

      You left out the word “temporary” and “until we can figure out what the hell is going on” and his later changes and clarifications.

      most Americans don’t care about the details of the different texts that Jihadis quote and the different systems of Fiq and Jihad, etc. and scholarship of Hadith, etc. – they just want the violence and Islamic terrorism stopped.

      Like

    • Crusaders killing everyone in Europe until stopped by force”

      But Islam itself and the unjust wars that Muhammad and Omar started against Persia and Byzantine are older than the Crusades (thought I don’t agree with those things either – that was Roman Catholic garbage.)

      Like

  45. could this “abu” be one of those who pretended to be Muslim all this years to renounce as to drive people away from Islam?

    Liked by 3 people

  46. “And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,
    “with” !!!
    the martyrs are with Allah!
    They got there before Jesus and Muhammad, according to this verse and others like it. ”

    this is talking about the murdered people. this is where loss of the murdered is deeply felt.
    you are not to say or think about “dead”
    they are being provided for by God.
    does this deny that God cannot RECREATE those murdered ?
    if you can have brand new body why not brand new soul?
    but their communication is cut off

    quote:
    If only my people knew that my Lord has forgiven me, and made me among the honored ones!

    Like

    • وَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتًا ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ

      And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,

      sounds like they are alive, near, with their Lord and He is providing for them.

      does not sound like “cease to exist”, “in the grave”, “waiting for the day of judgement for their souls and bodies to be re-constituted and recreated in order to stand in judgment and THEN be let into paradise with Allah.”

      Sounds like they are already with Allah in paradise / heaven.

      Like

    • Temple has it ever occurred to you that the “hereafter”, “heaven”, “paradise” … is something timeless, beyond/transcending space and time?

      This childish Jesus was in heaven before Muhammad is absolute BS?

      Liked by 2 people

    • Ken Temple

      What is your problem, if they are cooling in heaven before the day of judgement?

      Everyone will be judged and no one will be in heaven when we are being judged. If even they are in heaven they died and cease to exist as the first part of the versed said they are killed i.e. cease to exist. So they resurrected with God. What is your problem?

      Thanks.

      Like

    • his problem is that he needs to have a life line for his dead god even when he (his god) is dead.

      Like

  47. Intellect wrote:

    What is your problem, if they are cooling in heaven before the day of judgement?

    cooling?

    now “cooling” “in heaven” is the same as “ceasing to exist” ?

    You need to work harder at communication.

    Totally incoherent.

    hard to understand, you are.

    Like

    • hey ken, if jesus said ” i am not god”
      would that be the flesh speaking or the divine nature?

      Like

    • He did not say that, so what is the point of your hypothetical question?

      Like

    • because pagans like you can always argue “that was the flesh speaking ” lol

      Like

    • you didn’t even bother listening to qadhi’s response .

      Like

    • I did; but he gave 2 views that disagree with each other; but ok, I am listening again, because I sincerely trying to understand.

      “stay at my grave and calm me down” – ‘stay with me and comfort me”
      strong Hadith, “this is another evidence”, “the dead can hear, those that visit the graves, and if you say “salaam”, then they can hear.”
      “majority position”, “whole Ummah” etc.
      according to Yasir Qadhi

      Like

  48. Paul Williams,
    Do you agree with “Intellect” that death means “ceasing to exist” ? (even the soul / spirit of a person)

    Does Islam teach that the souls and spirits actually cease to exist and are in the grave – bodies rotting and only at judgement Allah will recreate or reconstitute the souls and DNA and personality along with the body for judgment day?

    If so, how can any prayer or anything for blessing for them (prophets, Jesus, Muhammad, and martyrs) be applicable for now?

    It means all those prayers for peace and blessing are a hope for the future resurrection day of judgement.

    It is a weak hope, it seems to me.

    Whereas in the Bible, our hope is that right when we die, believers go to heaven straight and are alive spiritually, and unbelievers are in Hades/Torment until the day of judgement. the day of judgement is the reunited of the physical BODY with the already alive souls either in heaven or torment. Then hades/death/torment is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10-15

    2 Corinthians 5 – when we believers in Christ die, we go straight to heaven. a great hope.

    Like

    • “Does Islam teach that the souls and spirits actually cease to exist and are in the grave – bodies ”

      God can will them back into existence and remove them and destroy them and recreate them .

      “be, and it is”

      quote:
      Here Allaah is telling us that He is Eternal, Ever Lasting, Ever Living, Self-Sustaining, Who, although His creation dies, He will never die

      Like

    • all those “spirits/souls” and all other nonsense did not exist before and it was easy for God to bring them into existence.

      “Whatsoever is on it (the earth) will perish. And The Face of your Lord Full of Majesty and Honour will remain forever”.

      Like

    • correction :
      all those spirits/souls and all other non-soul did not exist before they were created and it was easy for God to bring them into existence. He can bring into existence as He wills. this demolishes your belief in your dead god.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      It means all those prayers for peace and blessing are a hope for the future resurrection day of judgement.
      It is a weak hope, it seems to me.
      Whereas in the Bible, our hope is that right when we die, believers go to heaven straight and are alive spiritually, and unbelievers are in Hades/Torment until the day of judgement. the day of judgement is the reunited of the physical BODY with the already alive souls either in heaven or torment. Then hades/death/torment is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10-15
      2 Corinthians 5 – when we believers in Christ die, we go straight to heaven. a great hope.

      I say;
      Jesus taught “Our Father”, “Forgive us our sins”

      Why is it necessary, if he had already died for Christians sins?

      Why will Christians(Every) send their dead to Church for prayers for the dead or prepare funeral to offer prayers for their dead? By your criteria, it is a hope for future resurrection day of judgement.

      Why will Christians repent? if they had already had Jesus died and paid their sins? Jesus said repent to Christians and do not tell me that a Christian who commits sin is not a Christian. Do not tell me that.

      It is a weak hope it seems to me when Christians keep repenting when they sin but not saying “we do not need to repent because Jesus died for our sins”

      Jesus death becomes useless if Christians continue to recite the Lords prayer.

      On Muslims side, we have hope as Allah has promised every Muslim heaven but it works hand in hand with obeying God commands to the best you can. Strive(Jihad) to do the will of God and a Muslim is guaranteed heaven.

      Because Allah is the final decision maker we do not go bragging we have the key of heaven because no one has that and it will be a lie to brag that you are going to heaven. Instead we say InshAllah we will go to heaven. We can then keep praying for our prophets, our selves and all righteous people because it is arrogant to say we will not pray and stop praying to God and also stop praying for our loved ones. It is arrogant to stop praying to God My dear Reverend Ken.

      Why are you in Church always praying. Stop praying Mr. Ken and not mention the Lords prayer and not go to Church according to your criteria because your keys to heaven you arrogantly thinks is in your pocket.

      We will not stop praying to our prophets, ourselves, and the righteous even though we have assurance to heaven.

      Again, I said God can cause us not to exist when we die and a soul/spirit is not a human being and it cannot hear, see, or eat. and later God will let us exist.

      I can wipe the partition of my hard disk to make windows 10 not exist there and later making windows 10 to exist there so it is simple for God to make us die(not exist) and all creatures will not exist when a horn is blown and the world comes to an end, then they is resurrection to make us exist again. That is what I said.

      Liked by 1 person

    • “Intellect”,
      You mis-understand the forgiveness of sins at the point of justification by faith alone (John 5:24; Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:16)
      vs. the ongoing need to confess and repent of sins committed after justification that does not make us loose justification or relationship with God; but if left unconfessed, creates a break in fellowship with God – read 1 John 1:5-9

      Someone who never prayers or confesses again proves they are not really a believer.

      Yes, we continually seek God and ask for forgiveness – 1 John 1:9 – but that is about restoring our fellowship, not about justification for heaven (Romans 5:1; Romans 4:1-16; Romans 8:28-35; Galatians 2:16; Acts 15:9-11; John 5:24; 3:16; 20:30-31, Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8-9)

      Like

    • “vs. the ongoing need to confess and repent of sins committed after justification that does not make us loose justification or relationship with God; but if left unconfessed, creates a break in fellowship with God – read 1 John 1:5-9”

      “if left un-confessed”

      then you should say “inshAllah”

      but it gets worse. you already have some one paying the price for your “unconfession” and you are still guaranteed the paradise . the “on going need…” i.e the “sacrifice” cannot put away “on going need” therefore you need to say inshAllah

      didn’t i say your arrogance cannot allow you to say what your heart wants you to say?

      Like

    • Colossians 1:13-14
      13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
      14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

      Like


    • You mis-understand the forgiveness of sins at the point of justification by faith alone (John 5:24; Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:16)”

      i am sure your “faith” is going through a struggle in making sense how 3 gods = 1. i am sure you have doubts and i am sure your “faith” is just bloody rags. i am sure, your “repentance” is just rote considering that same person got split from same person to pay for your pagan ROTE repentance.

      Like

    • Only one God – Mark 12:29; 1 Timothy 2:5
      but in three persons in a spiritual loving relationship from all eternity past. God is Love. God is relationship.
      Only the Unitas Trinitas can fill the whole in people’s hearts for connection to their creator, because only the true God, the Trinitas Unitas is relationship.

      Like

    • Nothing pagan about it; rather Trinitarian Monotheism is the Only True Monotheism.

      1 John 1:5-10
      5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
      6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
      7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

      8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

      9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

      10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

      1 John 2:1-2
      2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
      2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

      Like

    • no baal worshipper, everything pagan about it. try to fit it into toratic model of god and see that you would have been a pagan henotheist

      enjoy pagan.

      Like

  49. “It means all those prayers for peace and blessing are a hope for the future resurrection day of judgement.”

    the honour of the prophets is with God , they already made it .already honoured.
    already blessed.

    Like

  50. quran says :

    “you cannot make those who are in the grave HEAR….”

    “when you call them they cannot hear you(ref to jesus, mary, catholic saints , allat, aluzza…)
    EVEN IF THEY COULD HEAR YOU THEY COULDN’T RESPOND…

    good refutation of protestants and catholics.

    jesus will do kuffar of your shirk on d.o. judgement !

    hadeeth

    temporary miracle

    it is GOD making them hear

    prophet did not correct 3umar and say “dead can hear”

    prophet said : and RIGHT NOW THIS group can ….

    exception in time place and people..

    3umar understood quran correctly “you cannot make the dead hear…”

    Like

  51. Al Gazzali, the famous Sufi Sunni theologian, said that Allah can send even the believers and prophets to hell and that we have no right to question, if He so chooses.

    Abdullah Kunde quoted that in his debate with Samuel Green, but I asked Abdullah for years by email for the reference and he never got it for me.

    but I have heard that affirmed by many Muslims.

    You don’t have a lot of hope or assurance for salvation and heaven.

    Like

    • The Quran guarantees paradise fir Muslims

      Liked by 1 person

    • where is the Al Gazzali quote?
      anyone ?
      can anyone give that famous reference – book, chapter, page no. etc. ?

      Like

    • Every Muslim theologian has admitted that there is no assurance of paradise except for dying in Jihad. Everything else is “enshall’allah” ( if God wills)

      Like

    • “You don’t have a lot of hope or assurance for salvation and heaven.”

      since you do why don’t you ask for death considering that you are guaranteed to sin ?
      but you will never ask for death. you wish to worship a man here on this earth.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Jesus promised eternal life the moment someones repents and believes in Him.
      John 5:24

      24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

      Like

    • Allah promised heaven for those who do not take jesus as a god.

      And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: “This is what we were provided with before,” and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Mutahharatun (purified mates or wives), (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.) and they will abide therein forever.

      Like

    • “Allah will say: This is a day in which the truthful will profit from their truth. Theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath – their eternal Home. Allah is well-pleased with them, and they with Allah. That is the great salvation” (5:119).

      “Gardens of perpetual bliss: they shall enter there, as well as the righteous among their fathers, their spouses, and their offspring. Angels shall enter from every gate (with the salutation): ‘Peace be with you, that you persevered in patience! Now how excellent is the final home!” (Quran 13:23-24).

      Like

  52. “Every Muslim theologian has admitted that there is no assurance of paradise except for dying in Jihad. Everything else is “enshall’allah” ( if God wills)”

    liar

    quote:
    Those who have died in the defense of Islam (jihad) will be granted entry through this door. Note that the Quran calls upon Muslims to solve issues by peaceful means, and only engage in defensive battles. “Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression” (Quran 2:193).

    “inshAllah”

    if Allah created everything , then who besides Him is the creator?

    inshAllah very applicable.

    Like

  53. “Everything else is “enshall’allah” ( if God wills)”

    our father in heaven lead us not in temptation

    “father not my will but your will”

    “i do the will of my father”

    Like

    • ken, thinks he is guaranteed heaven lol
      but he is not guaranteed the next day so i guess deep in his heart he says “if god Wills”
      yet he thinks he is guaranteed heaven?

      Like

    • those are good quotes and I believe them – we should always have a surrendered attitude to God’s will.

      but when God promises something, we don’t have to say “Enshall’ Allah”.

      we say “if God wills” for prayers for protection from evil, safety, prosperity, blessing, healing, because He does not always bless us financially or heal us physically,and God allows tragedies and sufferings and sickness and hard times and trials to test us and conform us to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-29), but salvation is guaranteed to those who repent and believe in Christ.

      Like

    • “but when God promises something, we don’t have to say “Enshall’ Allah”.

      you are not even promised the next day leave alone heaven. you are guaranteed to sin though. so since you are guaranteed to sin shouldn’t you say “God willing i will go to heaven” ?

      God doesn’t break his promise but maybe you will break his “covenant” like the jews did lol
      maybe you should have said “inshAllah” ??

      Liked by 1 person

  54. Jesus promised true peace:

    John 14:27

    27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

    and eternal life:

    John 5:24

    John 3:16

    John 20:30-31

    1 John 5:13-14

    Matthew 11:27-30

    Like

    • Ken Temple

      Whereas in the Bible, our hope is that right when we die, believers go to heaven straight and are alive spiritually, and unbelievers are in Hades/Torment until the day of judgement. the day of judgement is the reunited of the physical BODY with the already alive souls either in heaven or torment. Then hades/death/torment is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10-15
      2 Corinthians 5 – when we believers in Christ die, we go straight to heaven. a great hope.

      I say;
      Why are the souls/spirit not thrown into hell? and wait for the day of resurrection to have a body before thrown into hell? As simple as that a soul/spirit is not a human being and that human being does not exist until resurrected i.e. bringing back to live with consciousness, life and is existing to go to heaven or hell.

      If by your soul/spirit you mean a human being exist why not stay like that in heaven? but needs body i.e. resurrection to be judged and go to heaven?

      Why did the soul/spirit alone not judged? Because a soul/spirit alone is not human being and cannot hear, see or eat food.

      If everyone is alive as you want us to believe why will the soul/spirit not judged? and why the need for day of resurrection if people are alive in heaven and others waiting at the gates of hell? If they are alive why not put them to hell? but wait for the day of resurrection.

      Do you understand English at all? and do you speak English? I am surprised you do not know the meaning of resurrection.

      Resurrection means restoring the dead back to live. So your souls/spirit does not mean a human being is alive. You know this but you will not accept it because it crushes Christianity.

      According to the Bible, Jewish belief and Islamic believe and some Christians believe this and it is in the Quran and other hadith that and the end day a horn will be blown and every creature will die(cease to exist) including the angel of death and Allah alone will not cease to exist but everything will cease to exist. That is the Majesty of Allah, then he will resurrect an angel to blow another horn and everyone is resurrected i.e. back into existence and alive and we can see, hear etc. for our judgement.

      Heaven and hell will be closed and no one is inside during judgement and after judgement it will be opened and may Allah put us in heaven.

      You will be judged so do not think you have the keys to heaven Mr. Ken. It is wise to continue praying InshaAllah and humble yourself.

      Once again, it is arrogance not to grant God His respect by always praying for His will InshaAllah like Jesus said

      “father not my will but your will”
      “i do the will of my father”

      Jesus, you said He is God and he is talking about the will of God and you are telling us to stop talking about the will of God. That is unchristian to ask people to stop praying for the will of God.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • hell is the general term for the fires of torment, including Hades right now, until after the bodies are resurrected, then all are thrown in the lake of fire forever. “and death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire.” Rev. 20:10-15 Hell includes both Hades/torment now and lake of fire later after judgment day.

      Like

    • we always pray for God’s will to be done and always should pray with humility, “Your will be done”.

      Like

    • your arrogance stinks. you can’t even admit “inshallah” even though you know in your heart one has to do the will of God and it is possible you might do something God does not want you to do which might lead you into hell. your “peace” is “peace ” of pagan delusion.

      Liked by 1 person

    • how can you worship a god who was split by human beings . the pagans separated the same person from the same person . why do you trust this thing can give you “eternal life” ? it got split by human beings. human being exorcised the “divine person” from the same person.

      Like

  55. around 17:00 minute Yasir Qadhi quoted Surah Fatir 35:14 – and said no one can hear your prayers or Salaat – not Jesus (or, I am assuming, he includes Muhammad also)

    Like

    • Ken Temple

      Yes, he did include Mohammed but said there is a hadith that Mohammed(PBUH) said, if we pray for him, Allah will send an angel to tell him of the prayer for him. So, no dead can hear, see, eat, run, walk etc. because the soul/spirit is not a human being. When a human being dies and his soul remains it is not the human being that is alive.

      When a human being dies he ceases to exist. If Dr. James White said a soul/spirit is a human being then he has to drop his Doctorate degree because it is disgrace. A soul/spirit is not a human being but a human being ceases to exist after death.

      Resurrection will bring back to life, the dead and the dead regains his life again. Without resurrection, a human being cease to exist. I can challenge Dr. James White on this in any English language class and in front of all religions and philosophers. He lied when he said death does not mean cease to exist. Yes, death means cease to exist.

      A soul/spirit alone is not a human being and the Bible said God can destroy a soul. When we were created, we were create from nothing. How can’t the same God not cause our body to decay and does not exist as everyone knows and late make another body to exist for us?

      It destroys Christian or Trinitarian theology, they are finding it hard to accept this fact and truth. God in his Majesty at the end day will cause any creature to CEASE TO EXIST except HIM(His Majesty) alone who always exist and cannot cease to exist. Then His Majesty will cause the creatures He wills to come into existence or back to life again. That is God’s power or within God’s power.

      Any one who rejects this God’s power is a polytheist and needs to repent as soon as possible, otherwise if that person dies he will have the regret at the day of resurrection.

      We all know the dead don’t bite and the body will decay or cremated and non existent. The soul/spirit is not a human being and therefore a human being is dead and not alive and it means cease to exist of a human being and the Bible said a soul/spirit can be destroyed. If the soul/spirit is with God, it does not mean the human being is alive and exists. What is the reason of death and resurrection? I am telling Dr. James White today the reason is to cease to exist and exist again by the power of God.

      With regards to prayers FOR our prophets, FOR ourselves and FOR righteous people, we will continue to do that because we and our prophets are not arrogant like David Wood who wants us to stop praying to God and sit and forget about God.

      Our prophet said, I, you and other prophets need to continue praying to our God always and it does not matter if we are sure of our salvation so I and the other prophets needs prayers, you and everyone needs continue prayers to the One, and Only God of Abraham.

      We are righteous and not arrogant and Islamic illiterates like David Wood who will just copy attack on Islam without research. It is wise to research on his attack before using it other wise it will disgrace the user.

      Jesus continued to pray and he never stops and say “I am God or God-Man, so I will not pray again” He said your will be done. Why blame us Muslims for continue prayers to our prophets, ourselves and righteous people? seeking God’s will. Because David Wood Nabeel and Sam Shamoun said so? They are not better researchers. Do your own research.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • “Intellect”:
      Please stop saying “we are lying”, etc. and “don’t know English” when we have a different theological definition and understanding of how we define death and what death is. In Christian theology death has never meant “ceasing to exist”, but rather the formal definition of physical death is the separation of the immaterial part of man (the soul, spirit, consciousness, conscience, personality, mind, emotions, etc.) from the physical body and biological functions. I agree with Dr. White and you study and research all you want in western Christian thought that this is the case. The spirit and soul lives on, either in Hades/torment/ hell-fire (see Luke 16:19-31 – the rich evil man when to Hades/torment/fire, and Lazarus , the poor believer went to the place of rest of peace with the prophet Abraham, and they could all talk and communicate with one another. At Christ’s death, the place of rest, or Abraham’s side/bosom/presence, was emptied out and all the OT saints and prophets and believers were taken with Christ to paradise in heaven. (Ephesians 4:8-9)

      I am starting to understand you better a little, but I think it would help if you just acknowledge we have a different theological definition of what death is. But it seems you do agree that the soul continues in the grave until the day of judgement, you just don’t choose to call that a human being anymore. In some mysterious way, you and Islamic theology, acknowledge some kind of existence of the soul/spirit, but are incapable of communication with the dead (which we agree with).

      We can say the human spirit and soul is still alive if we want to, according to our Scriptures and theology and you have no right to tell us we cannot say that and you have no right to call us liars. That part of your argumentation is just bad argumentation. 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 shows that the internal unseen part of us, our spiritual self or soul, continues on after death, after the “earthly tent” (body) is dead.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      Every thing will CEASE TO EXIST except Allah-the only one true God of Abraham. No Prophet Mohammed, no prophet Jesus, No angels nothing and that is how He was and can be like that if He wants to. He is self sufficient and does not need relationship like us to exist.

      Video

      Thanks.

      Like

    • The video you linked to does not work.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      Sorry for any hash words. Normally, David Wood and Nabeel angers me because they do not tell the truth as per David Woods video you posted above.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 2 people

    • David Wood is very strong, but if you listen to him, he is pointing out quotes from the Hadith and Qur’an and asking questions and demonstrating what your texts actually say.

      I already explained Nabeel’s main issues – he sincerely maintains that the theology of Allah/ God is the same in Sunni Islam as in Ahmadiyeh Islam, and he admits he was from that background, though not as clear nor as often as he should for Sunnis to appreciate. The difference is their understanding of the second coming of the Messiah and the Mehdi, which they say was manifested in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in the city of Qadian, India, in 1889.

      I agree with Dr. White that Nabeel should make that clearer and quit giving you and others like you ammunition to use against him.

      Nabeel’s statement about going to fight for ISIS is based on his subsequent study of Islam and Hadiths and Tarikh and Sira and Tafsirs where he realized that Ahmadiyeh Islam is not compatible with the Islamic texts. He is saying that he thinks those Wahabi / Salafis terrorist movements are rooted in certain texts and he can see how they take them all literally and apply them to today. He is not lying, though he needs to clarify it more. If he had stayed ignorant of all the hadith and Sira and Tarikh and Tafsir texts, as the Ahmadiyeh do avoid all the harsh and Jihad type stuff – then he would not go to Syria and fight. He is saying that he sees lots of those texts that they use to justify their actions, even if most Sunni scholars even disagree with their literal interpretations.

      Like

    • Ken I have a friend who is a Jehovah’s Witness and of course calls himself Christian. Do you accept he is a Christian?

      Like

    • No; absolutely not. They have a different theology of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, so by definition, they cannot be Christians.

      But Ahmadis and Sunnis have the same definition and understanding of Allah.

      Their difference is about the Mehdi and the Messiah and their second coming.

      Like

    • But they insist they are Christian, they believe in Jesus but do not blaspheme by worshiped Jesus. So I think their theology is better grounded in fact that your theology. Yet you deny their faith.

      Like

    • Because they are dishonest with John 1:1 (you even admitted to me that the traditional understanding of John 1:1 is the correct understanding of the Greek) and Colossians 1:15-16 (the JWs add the word “other”). They deny the eternality of the Word/the Son into the past – John 1:1 and John 17:5.

      They also deny Monotheism by saying Jesus was “a god” in John 1:1. That makes 2 gods.

      They deny the personality of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit speaks (John 16:13; Acts 13:2-4; Hebrews 3:7), testifies (John 15:26), prays (Romans 8:26-27), searches (1 Cor. 2:10-11); can be lied to (Acts 5:3-5) and can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30).

      When you admitted the traditional / Trinitarian understanding of the Greek of John 1:1 is the correct understanding.

      http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/01/muslim-agrees-with-greek-of-john-11.html

      Like

    • It is theoretically possible to translate John 1:1 “the word was a god”. It would be consistent with OT notions of divine belongs other then Yahweh. I have changed my mind on this question after further study and reading.

      Like

    • no; it is not possible according to the rules of grammar, as my article shows. The Greek is very specific. The theology against Arius in the late 3rd and early 4th century was based on the Greek text of holy Scripture, which is God-breathed. Those very same Scriptures condemn the Jehovah’s Witnesses of today as a false religion also.

      Like

    • I disagree. Many top notch NT scholars permit this translation as a possibility. I am reading a book by a Yale professor of NT at the moment who suggests this.

      Like

    • did I get the main bone of contention that Sunnis have with the Ahamdiyeh, right?

      Though I did mention that they interpret Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as fullfillment of the Mahdi and Messiah, it should be apparent that I got the logical outworking of that also; that it denies that Muhammad is the last earthly prophet before judgement day.

      Like

    • The Quran clearly states that Muhammad is the last prophet to mankind. Authentic Hadith say the same. To deny this is to cease to be a Muslim. It’s like a Christian believing there is another Jesus to come after the first one.

      Like

    • Ok, but Muhammad is not coming back, but Isa Al Masih is and the Mahdi is; – is that not in some sense a future “prophetic presence” on earth?

      Like

    • But he is not another Prophet after Muhammad. It’s the same one returning

      Like

    • If the Yale professor is that gay homosexual Martin – totally discredited and immoral.

      Like

    • No. She is Adela Yarbro Collins, Buckingham Professor of New Testament Criticism and Interpretation at Yale University.

      Like

    • ok; thanks for telling who it is.

      Like

    • What is the name of her book?

      Like

    • Yale University – nothing but liberalism, secularism, atheism, agnosticism – all the things that Islam hates, and if given the power, a Muslim Caliphate state would execute all the professors there.

      Like

    • Ken your ad hominem attacks on scholarship you have not read is childish.

      Like

    • would you trust atheism and murder by abortions, and promotion of homosexuality, pornography, transgenderism, etc. ? that is what the secular left is in the west – immoral. but they are free to speak their garbage; but the murder of babies is real root of why some Christians voted against Hillary. They took a chance on Trump as at least saying he would work to stop abortion by appointing the right supreme court justices.

      Like

    • what is the name of the book and the author? Of the Yale NT professor?

      Like

    • Also, you leave out the main bone of contention Muslims have with the Ahmadis. Surprised you don’t know what it is Ken.

      Like

    • I think the main bone of contention is that since they have interpreted the coming of the Mahdi and the second coming of Jesus as fulfilled in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and (I guess) that means that there was a another prophet on earth, then by logic it makes Muhammad not the final prophet or messenger, but Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the final prophet/rasool. right?

      But, in a sense, since Sunnis also believe in the future coming of the Mahdi and second coming of Isa Al Masih, how are they also more “final” in some sense than Muhammad?

      I think that is a fair question.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Nabeel’s statement about going to fight for ISIS is based on his subsequent study of Islam and Hadiths and Tarikh and Sira and Tafsirs where he realized that Ahmadiyeh Islam is not compatible with the Islamic texts. He is saying that he thinks those Wahabi / Salafis terrorist movements are rooted in certain texts and he can see how they take them all literally and apply them to today. He is not lying, though he needs to clarify it more. If he had stayed ignorant of all the hadith and Sira and Tarikh and Tafsir texts, as the Ahmadiyeh do avoid all the harsh and Jihad type stuff – then he would not go to Syria and fight. He is saying that he sees lots of those texts that they use to justify their actions, even if most Sunni scholars even disagree with their literal interpretations.

      I say;
      This is what sometimes angers me but I will control my emotions. Nabeel said if he had remained in his former faith(Qadiani) he would have travelled to Syria to fight.

      When he wears his designer suits like Joel Olsteen, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Lee Long, DT Jakes etc. to deliver a speech to Christians to get more money from them, his most often repeated words he is a former Muslim and understand it and that is why he converted to Christianity.

      He does not know his former faith(Qadiani) cannot go to Syria to fight and he said he would have gone there if he had remained his former faith(Qadiani). It is complete lie and lack of knowledge of his former faith and he lied worse than Ergun Carner.

      Ken, whether Nabeel knows hadith or not, Qadianis(his former faith) do not go to Syria to fight and they will be killed because they will not be accepted but he said he would have gone there to fight, so he lied and he does not need clarification.

      You are doing all this face saving for him because you know he is a best tool you can have to distort Islam and get Christians to believe that Islam is bad and they will not bother researching to convert like Paul Williams.

      David Wood
      You said David Wood is good and knows Hadith. He is not Islamic scholar and he does not speak Arabic and fluent in classical Arabic. Do not tell me the transliteration he used in the video is Arabic. Dr. John L. Esposito of Georgetown University, Dr. Graig Considine, Dr Gerald Dirks(Masters of Divinity), Lesley Hasleton, Karen Armstrong are all non Muslim Islamic scholars except Dr. Gerald Dirks who converted to Islam and they can speak fluent Arabic and knows all the necessary courses they took with many years of experience to become Islamic scholars do not agree with David Wood interpretations.

      Some of the above Islamic scholars and many more are Christians themselves but do not agree with David Wood interpretations.

      You posted his video above accusing Muslims of praying to Prophet Mohammed which was a lie, it was prayers FOR prophet Mohammed, FOR ourselves and FOR righteous people and in our tradition we are not arrogant like David Wood to stop praying to God for our prophet, ourselves and righteous people. We continue doing prayers to God till we cannot do. If a prophet is promised paradise, he must not be arrogant like David Wood and stop praying to his God;

      Jesus is God according to Christians but he keep praying and never stops till his death. On his death Jesus continued to pray and asking the will of his God.

      You Ken, you follow this charlatan David Wood who knows nothing and saying he is good with all his lies. Are you not ashamed of his video you posted above and we continue to easily refute it over and over with his lies in the video?

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Except for one of the prayers, as David Wood pointed out, does address directly to Muhammad “peace to you, O prophet”. He is just raising the issue as something that seems not right to do. I listened. One does not need to be an expert to see the problem.

      Like

    • I don’t see a problem. But Wood has evil godly motives.

      Like

    • How do you know what his motives are?
      can you read his heart?

      Like

    • You judge his heart by his actions which are evil

      Liked by 1 person

    • like what? When those Muslims cursed him and yelled at him and said the most wicked and ugly and nasty English words at him at the Arab festival, Nabeel was very patient and impressive. And he and Wood were exhonerated and aquitted of the false charges. They were right, according to US law – freedom of speech and freedom of evangelism is very important to USA, which is why we should never allow Sharia law in the west. It is evil because it shuts down freedom of speech and freedom of religion and freedom of evangelism and freedom for you do to peaceful Da’awa also.

      Like

    • Spokesmen like a true secular American – not a Bible Christian. The bible says nothing at all about freedom of speech, democracy etc. You mix faith and politics Ken and call it “Christianity”.

      Like

    • Then you admit that once Sharia could be established, you and the Muslims would take over and force the Dhimmi and Jiziye again and there would be no more freedom to openly discuss and evangelize and freedom to disagree, etc. That is the root of why Islamic law – Sharia and the Caliphate and all would be evil and wrong – it means oppression for Christians and Jews and annihilation for pagans, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.

      Like

    • That is a very distorted and negative view. You have freedom to worship – but can’t proselytise Muslims as the state must protect its citizens against harm. Intellectually serious discussion is permitted but blasphemy is not.

      Like

    • no; that is not freedom of worship, because part of Christian worship is evangelism and sharing the gospel in love; as I seek to do here. In my opinion, your advocacy of liberal theology and liberal textual criticism and Islam is harmful to the souls of people, but you have the freedom to speak those harmful things. Hopefully people will listen but research for them selves and decide for themselves and see your Da’awa is actually harmful to the soul. But in the west, in England and on the internet, praise God, you have freedom to speak and have your opinions.

      Saudi Arabia, Iran, Taliban, part so Pakistan and other parts of the Muslim world – no freedom of evangelism or discussion or debate. Al Qaeda and Isis – even worse.

      Western outworking of no more theocratic Israel OT state was a better solution than theocracy of the Roman Catholic Crusades and Middle Ages and their history of Inquisitions and force and torture. (And Calvin’s Geneva also)

      1 Corinthians 5 and 6 show that unrepentant people should be ex-communicated out of the church, not executed, as in Islam.

      Like

    • Ken you have a gravely distorted view. The state must protect Muslim citizens against spiritual harm. So no you can’t prey on the weak and vulnerable Muslims and lead them astray. If you don’t like it -tough!

      Like

    • Then Islam should never be allowed to become a state in any other place – if you don’t like that, tough! It is evil for you to try and spread that oppression, just as Omar’s wars and beyond were all evil against all other countries and nations.

      Like

    • It is the problem of the Muslim world – they don’t know how to manage themselves in allowing so much garbage and violence – Saudi, Taliban, Iran, Pakistan, Lybia – quit blaming the west and clean up your own countries. Isis and Al Qaeda was result of not having proper Islamic government in Saudi (according to Ben Laden’s view; and Hassan Banna and Sayeed Qutb) and isis was the result of taking out of evil dictator like Saddam Hussein who killed whole villages of Kurds and Shiites and started war with Iran, etc. (and then when evil take out, they cannot make peace with each other, but need the west to stay and keep their anger and violence down) and Lybia chaos result of not having Qaddafi as evil dictator any more also. Muslim world is in chaos and fitneh (confusion, chaos, rebellion)

      Like

    • Since 1 Corinthians 5 and 6 proscribe excommunication, not execution; and Jesus took the kingdom of God away from theocratic Israel (matthew 21:43-45), there is no more Theocratic rule with cruel punishments and excecutions.

      Like

    • You are doing all this face saving for him because you know he is a best tool you can have to distort Islam and get Christians to believe that Islam is bad and they will not bother researching to convert like Paul Williams.

      Not true; I think James White is better than Nabeel and David Wood.

      Williams just uses liberalism and atheism and secularists antisupernatural scholars to attack Christianity and the Bible.

      And believe in some kind of Islamic state with Caliphate, Jiziyeh, Dhimmi, etc is all evil and Islamic state (not Isis, I realize you don’t agree with them) – but something else would almost as bad. Saudi Arabia, Taliban, Iran, Pakistan, and Lybia, and even parts of Egypt are unfair to Christians and oppress them. They show the results of allowing Islam to be the state government – oppression.

      Like

    • “get Christians to believe that Islam is bad ” – Islam is bad, but you have the freedom to speak about it peacefully. But Islamic law, Caliphate, Sharia, Jiziye, lack of freedom of evangelism is even worse; Islam should never be allowed to be the state government – the only result would be something worse than Saudi Arabia or Iran or maybe something less bad than Isis and Al Qaeda or Hamas – all of that crap is bad and evil.

      But as long as you don’t do Jihad and try to take over areas and institute Sharia law, then you are free to speak and do peaceful Da’wa and debate.

      Like

    • “Nabeel said if he had remained in his former faith(Qadiani) he would have travelled to Syria to fight.”

      it is claimed that qadianis are persecuted. why not suffer along with the persecuted?
      why would this guy claim to be a suffering servant ? then he would have shot himself

      Like

    • Nabeel is speeching this way as a result of all the extra things he found out later in the Hadith and Tafsirs, etc. – he is not speaking as if he stayed ignorant of those hadith, etc. when he was Ahmadiyeh. He is admitting that Ahmadiyeh avoid a lot of difficult Hadiths and Sira and Tarikh and Tafsirs.

      Like

    • Also Nabeel does not read Arabic and misses a lot of authentic Hadith that have not been translated into English. He is not a scholar of Hadith, he has no expertise.

      Like

    • so he decided to accept the blood lust of yhwh and amalekite and canaanite massacre. who are you kidding ?

      Like

    • “Except for one of the prayers, as David Wood pointed out, does address directly to Muhammad “peace to you, O prophet”.

      did the prophet reply wassalaam when he reached the salaam 3layka

      who is the person addressing when he ends with salaam and rahma right at the end?

      Like

    • “Nabeel is speeching this way as a result of all the extra things he found out later in the Hadith and Tafsirs, etc. – he is not speaking as if he stayed ignorant of those hadith, etc. when he was Ahmadiyeh. He is admitting that Ahmadiyeh avoid a lot of difficult Hadiths and Sira and Tarikh and Tafsirs.”

      so he decided to accept the slaughter of unborn , infants and children because hadeeth were too difficult for him to bear?

      Liked by 1 person

    • no; in his opinion he understands those Hadith and Sira and Tafsirs and Tarikh and sees how those Al Qaeda and Isis people take them literally and sees the logic of it; but exposes them as violent and wrong; but he is saying their behavior is explained by their taking those Islamic texts literally. Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi has a Phd in Islamics.

      Like

    • “no; in his opinion he understands those Hadith and Sira and Tafsirs and Tarikh and sees how those Al Qaeda and Isis people take them literally and sees the logic of it; but exposes them as violent and wrong; but he is saying their behavior is explained by their taking those Islamic texts literally. Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi has a Phd in Islamics.”

      funny, dr avalos says imperialism written all over on jesus’ faith.

      http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/jesus-was-not-against-imperialism.html

      will qurayshe trash jesus of nt ?

      Like

    • “there is no more Theocratic rule with cruel punishments and excecutions.”

      that’s a lie . and we know christians have used nt text to create theocratic rule , but that still failed to bring back failed jesus.

      quote :

      In The Bad Jesus (pp. 171-74), I critique, among other versions, the “spiritualizing” approach to the Kingdom of God proposed in Seyoon Kim, Christ and Caesar: The Gospel and the Roman Empire in the Writings of Paul and Luke (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2008).

      Jesus’ statement in John 18:36 does not mean that he is not willing to engage in any violence to spread or promote this “spiritual” kingdom.

      It is also in the same Gospel of John that we find Jesus engaging in violence when he drives out people with a whip in John 2:15. I devote a whole section in The Bad Jesus to analyzing the various defenses of Jesus’ actions (e.g., that he used the whip but it was really a social justice issue; that he did not really use the whip to hurt anyone; that he only used it on animals; that the moneychangers were doing something improper, etc.)

      end quote

      what would this thug (your god) do had he seen porn organisations, gay clubs and other abominations? would he injure but not kill?

      Like

  56. “I am starting to understand you better a little, but I think it would help if you just acknowledge we have a different theological definition of what death is. But it seems you do agree that the soul continues in the grave until the day of judgement, you just don’t choose to call that a human being anymore. In some mysterious way, you and Islamic theology, acknowledge some kind of existence of the soul/spirit, but are incapable of communication with the dead (which we agree with).”

    it is good to know that a pagan like you has slowly realised that Islam destroys christianities cop out “argument” “but the soul continues to exist” when Islam clearly says “EVERYTHING WILL PERISH…except GOD”

    since the argument was that everything was dependant on The God , then when your god DIED , what and who was his continued existence dependant on ? how can gods LIFE be dependant on another like souls being dependant on God? your gods life must then absurdly be dependant on gods OTHER power. other power which keeps him going.

    since islam says GOd will CAUSE everything to be NO MORE LIKE HE DID when He said

    “HE created DEATH AND LIFE…”

    how then does christian “argument ” which you man worshippers have been using help you now? it doesn’t

    Like

    • edward wrote:

      Islam clearly says “EVERYTHING WILL PERISH…except GOD”

      No; I don’t think that is right. Islam teaches there is an eternal paradise, eternal gardens, eternal virgins (houris) with green and lush areas and couches, etc. and the believers in Islam go there and enjoy the houris and raisins and whatever; and Islam teaches that there is an eternal fire for unbelievers. Their resurrected bodies and souls will suffer for eternity.

      Like

    • “No; I don’t think that is right. Islam teaches there is an eternal paradise, eternal gardens, eternal virgins (houris) with green and lush areas and couches, etc. and the believers in Islam go there and enjoy the houris and raisins and whatever; and Islam teaches that there is an eternal fire for unbelievers. Their resurrected bodies and souls will suffer for eternity.”

      Like

    • now lets see your “argument”

      Like

  57. Ken Temple

    You said;
    We can say the human spirit and soul is still alive if we want to, according to our Scriptures and theology and you have no right to tell us we cannot say that and you have no right to call us liars. That part of your argumentation is just bad argumentation. 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 shows that the internal unseen part of us, our spiritual self or soul, continues on after death, after the “earthly tent” (body) is dead.

    I say;
    You are right, I have no right to tell you what you can say and our religion forbids us to force others to accept our religion. But you must also know that we are all here in search for the truth while brainstorming to reach to an understanding. I am glad you are beginning to understand me a little and hope you will understand me fully in the near future because our religion is based on faith and reason. It is not based on faith alone or reason alone but combination of both.

    Unlike yours which is believe Jesus died for your sins and that’s it. Islam is not like that as the Quran is calling people to challenge it and asks Muslims to study anything even as far as to China. That is why you see some of us firing from all angles to go to the Bible, Quran, dictionary, Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic etc. with due respect to Brother Eric just to get the truth.

    So, do not be offended If I sometimes throw my challenge to you and within my heart I do not mean to disrespect you but to continue engaging in a friendly dialogue with you. I must be clear, I do not respect David Wood, Nabeel and some others andI will always call them liars because they are liars.

    The human spirit is another word change with all due respect like how you changed God to God-Man. How are we called on this earth? Human beings or human spirits? We are known as human beings and not human spirits.

    The two things i.e. body and spirit/soul makes a human being. Now you are taking the soul/spirit and calling it human. Ok. Human body without soul/spirit is dead and lifeless and sometimes cremated or decayed and it means it ceases to exist. That body alone is not a human being so after death we call the body it instead of he/her. So, the spirit/soul alone is not a human being no matter how you call it because there is no body. So the dead human being ceases to exist, even if the soul/spirit exists.

    When I remove the coca from coca cola the coca cola ceases to exist except water and sugar. I remove the sugar from the water and consume it and it digested into my system the sugar does not exist. The water exists. Will you call a water as coca cola? I guess no. No one will accept that.

    I am not telling you what to call what but reasoning with you to get the truth. We will all not accept a Hindu’s Monkey-God as God even though that is what they believe but we can reason with them and tell them a creator is entirely different from created and one cannot become the other. A hybrid creature is a hybrid but not one of the creature. Coca cola has sugar and water in it and it is not water anymore even though there is composition of water in it.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ken Temple

      November 25, 2016 • 2:06 pm

      edward wrote:

      Islam clearly says “EVERYTHING WILL PERISH…except GOD”
      No; I don’t think that is right. Islam teaches there is an eternal paradise, eternal gardens, eternal virgins (houris) with green and lush areas and couches, etc. and the believers in Islam go there and enjoy the houris and raisins and whatever; and Islam teaches that there is an eternal fire for unbelievers. Their resurrected bodies and souls will suffer for eternity.

      I say;
      With all due respect, you are wrong Ken. Paradise was created, hell was created and everything was created except Allah. The paradise and hell will be destroyed and recreated again. Did you not watch the video?

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • thanks for this reply bro

      Like

    • “The human spirit is another word change with all due respect like how you changed God to God-Man. How are we called on this earth? Human beings or human spirits? We are known as human beings and not human spirits.”

      funnily brother, in the synoptics jesus never calls himself ” a spirit”

      Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

      he only calls the father “spirit”

      Like

  58. The paradise and hell will be destroyed and recreated again. Did you not watch the video?

    Ok, I see what you mean now – but you left out “recreated again” in your earlier statements. Yes, I watched the video, and I understand that, but that also left out “recreated again” – or if it had that part, I missed it.

    In Christianity, there will also be a destruction of the physical world ( 2 Peter 3:10-13), but that does not include the total annihilation of souls/spirits, etc.

    There will be a new heavens and new earth created. 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation chapters 21 and 22

    but spirits/souls continue and are conscious.

    Like

    • “Ok, I see what you mean now – but you left out “recreated again” in your earlier statements. Yes, I watched the video, and I understand that, but that also left out “recreated again” – or if it had that part, I missed it.”

      if my memory is correct then the quran says GOd starts creation all over again.

      Like

    • I Peter 3:18-22

      18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
      19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

      20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
      21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
      22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

      Christ, in between His death and resurrection, went in His spirit to the evil spirits and unbelievers in prison (Hades/torment/fire – as in Luke 16:23-28 – and proclaimed His victory over them; and then took the OT believers who were with Abraham (see also Luke 16:22-31) which this action in Ephesians 4:8-9 is called “He led captivity captive” = he rescued them and took them to be with Him to heaven.

      Verse 22 shows the nature of His proclamation – proclaiming, announcing His victory over evil and evil spirits and sin.

      Like

    • “Christ, in between His death and resurrection,”

      what kind of “sacrifice” is this? this guy is supposed to be getting punished in the depths of hell, but instead he goes unto dawah missions. this is not a “sacrifice” this is a joke.

      ” went in His spirit to the evil spirits and unbelievers in prison (Hades/torment/fire – as in Luke 16:23-28 – ”

      i thought god was in hell, idols, and everything in existence. what kind of “sacrifice” is this.

      “and proclaimed His victory over them;”

      while he is being punished?


      and then took the OT believers who were with Abraham (see also Luke 16:22-31) which this action in Ephesians 4:8-9 is called “He led captivity captive” = he rescued them and took them to be with Him to heaven.”

      huh? it was “sacrifice” or rescue mission???

      Like

    • There is no dawa; no second chance. it is not evangelism, but announcement of His victory over them. The Greek word in 1 Peter 3:19 is karusso, not euangelizomai, announcing, not evangelizing. There was no invitation for the evil spirits or unbelievers.

      Like

    • it doesn’t look like “sacrificie ” to me . it just seems like a god jumping from one location to another (having a nice time) and then jumping back into his body. christian “sacrificie” is simply jesus switching locations

      Liked by 1 person

    • “There is no dawa; no second chance. it is not evangelism, but announcement of His victory over them”

      jesus is “meek and humble” yet he goes in hell and boasts about his victory while those souls r being punished. not very loving is it? how come jay smith never talks about this jesus?
      but thor was boasting about his victory over jesus when thor hammered jesus and took his life out of him

      just one man god vs another.

      Like

    • Jesus and God the Father do not show love to unbelievers in hell – they get the full brunt of God’s holiness and wrath against sin forever.

      Revelation 14:10 – “tormented forever in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb.
      Hell is God’s justice against sin. God’s wrath and anger is a just anger and just wrath. Pure and holy and they deserve it.

      Like

  59. Islam clearly says “EVERYTHING WILL PERISH…except GOD”

    This is the earlier statement that you made that did not include, “and then later, God will recreate everything again – souls, spirits, angels, etc.”

    Your earlier statements sound too final, as if there will no hell or heaven or believers in heaven or unbelievers in hell, etc.

    Like

  60. “Jesus and God the Father do not show love to unbelievers in hell – they get the full brunt of God’s holiness and wrath against sin forever.”

    so what was the point of god to go and visit them? since they were already being punished by his wrath? why would they want to see “presence” of god ?

    quote:
    “Revelation 14:10 – “tormented forever in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb.”


    Hell is God’s justice against sin. God’s wrath and anger is a just anger and just wrath. Pure and holy and they deserve it.
    end quote

    which is why i think jesus’ “sacrificie” is complete and utter nonsense. God can already SEE who He will punish in the depths of hell .

    Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Hell is God’s justice against sin. God’s wrath and anger is a just anger and just wrath. Pure and holy and they deserve it.
      end quote

      I say;
      It is an injustice for Jesus Christ punish people in hell fire because they did not understand impossibilities like creator becoming created like God-Man of Monkey-God.

      We will not be happy and Ken including when the Hindu God punishes us because we do not understand the possibility and accept Monkey-God. Both that punishment and Christ’s punishment of people in hell because they do not believe God died and God clearly does not die in the Bible is injustice to humanity by Jesus Christ.

      Again, Jesus did not die for the sins of the world because he does punish the sinners anyway. What is more inhumane is;

      A Christian murdered and raped non Christian. Later the Christian sincerely repented to Christ and Christ will put this Christian murderer into heaven and put the victim to the hell fire Ken Temple is describing above is an injustice to the non Christian.

      The victim of a Christian murderer is put to hell but the Christian perpetrator goes to heaven because he believed Jesus died for his sins. This is the most injustice of the highest degree.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • lol , good reply.

      Like

    • “Hell is God’s justice against sin. God’s wrath and anger is a just anger and just wrath. Pure and holy and they deserve it.”

      you need to explain what “justice” means

      1. did god give divine punishment /judgement for himself or for sinners?
      2. if for himself, why is hell still open? or why does a sinner get roasted infinitely , but jesus gets saved from infinite punishment? jesus was punished for paedophilia, homosexuality, gay marriage, adultery, idolatry, murder but god still saved him from eternal torment. jesus became GUILTY for ALL SINS in all years. jesus became polluted “sacrifice” but he was saved. on the other hand, a repentant sinner is not saved because he did not “accept” jesus’ popping in and out of different locations. is this fair and loving?

      3. does “divine justice” mean jesus go on dawah missions and rescue missions or does it mean suffering of finite flesh? but “the word” did not become finite flesh, he did not fuse and experience the flesh because he was “divine” and was switching from one location to the other and then popped back into his body.

      4. or do you believe the word became disabled and empty god? how is justice met by punishing an empty god? humans are punished as FULLY humans , not disabled humans. so how is justice met?

      Like

  61. The sacrifice of Jesus is effective only for those who repent and trust in Him and His atoning sacrifice and resurrection.

    Revelation 5:9
    Romans 3:21-26
    1 John 2:2
    Hebrews 2:14-18

    Like

  62. “Then you admit that once Sharia could be established, you and the Muslims would take over and force the Dhimmi and Jiziye again and there would be no more freedom to openly discuss and evangelize and freedom to disagree, etc. That is the root of why Islamic law – Sharia and the Caliphate and all would be evil and wrong – it means oppression for Christians and Jews and annihilation for pagans, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.”

    would u like me to tell u about kingdom of god and how your god was dreaming of it and thought to enslave non-jews

    i have a full chapter about kingdom of god and also christian attempts to spiritualise it (of course u would 2500 and clock still ticking yet…)

    Liked by 1 person

  63. Try typing it out better with better English and better spelling and more details, please.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Nabeel is speeching this way as a result of all the extra things he found out later in the Hadith and Tafsirs, etc. – he is not speaking as if he stayed ignorant of those hadith, etc. when he was Ahmadiyeh. He is admitting that Ahmadiyeh avoid a lot of difficult Hadiths and Sira and Tarikh and Tafsirs.

      I say;
      That is not what Nabeel said, so you lied and lied Reverent Ken. You ask me not to call you a liar but you keep lying and I cannot help but to call you a liar.

      This is Nabeel Quraish lies. He does not know as his former faith(Qadiani) he could not have travelled to fight in Syria and it is a lie. If you Ken, I will call you a liar

      David Wood.

      Once again this the tashhud prayer speaking to the prophet, speaking to ourselves and speaking to all righteous people directly and praying for our prophet, ourselves and all righteous people. There is nothing wrong praying for people in Islam.

      ————————

      The translation is as follows:
      All compliments, all physical prayer , and all monetary worship are for Allah. Peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah’s mercy and blessings. Peace be on us and on all righteous slaves of Allah . I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah. I bear witness that Muhammad (peace be upon him ) is his slave and Messenger

      ————————-

      Salaam(peace) prophet
      Salaam(peace) to us
      Salaam(peace) spoken directly to all righteous people

      is prayers directly for all righteous people and it is not praying to P. Mohammed or praying for him alone but continues prayers. To use it a lies against Islam is disingenuous especially when we refuted the claim over and over against David Wood who does not know the significance of tashhud and Ken continue to repeat makes Ken a liar. A big liar.

      David Wood omitted us and the righteous people that was spoken to and is lies and deceptions and Ken you are a liar and deception person by promoting these lies despite correction upon correction

      Thanks,

      Like

    • Dr. White is right; I also wish Nabeel and David would go on his Dividing Line program for clarification. Nabeel said, “if I still believed in Islam” – I have read his book, “seeking Allah, finding Jesus” (he researched while arguing with David for several years and discovered all the violent and ugly Hadiths and shocking stuff that he was not told as an Ahmadi) and most of his book on Jihad – and some of his videos and some articles. Not all. But it seems obvious he means the Islam he discovered after reading all the violent Hadiths, Tafsirs, etc. I am not lying; I would like him to clarify also – but unfortunately he is very sick now and undergoing chemotheropy and said his stomach cancer looked “very grim”

      Like

    • “(he researched while arguing with David for several years and discovered all the violent and ugly Hadiths and shocking stuff that he was not told as an Ahmadi)”

      david then showed him the killing of amalekite unborn, infant and children and then krayshe praised the lord?

      Like

    • “You ask me not to call you a liar but you keep lying and I cannot help but to call you a liar.”

      bro he washing himself in blood mon-sun.

      Like

    • No; I have not lied at all. I would like Nabeel to clarify; if you read his 2 books (now 3) – “Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus” and “Answering Jihad”, you would see why he thinks that Ahmadiye avoided many Islamic texts and Hadith, Tafsirs, Sira, and Tarikh and he realized that Ahmadiye in those areas was not Islamic, but still maintains that Ahmadiye doctrine of Allah is the same.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      Ken Temple

      November 25, 2016 • 9:33 pm

      Dr. White is right; I also wish Nabeel and David would go on his Dividing Line program for clarification. Nabeel said, “if I still believed in Islam” – I have read his book, “seeking Allah, finding Jesus” (he researched while arguing with David for several years and discovered all the violent and ugly Hadiths and shocking stuff that he was not told as an Ahmadi) and most of his book on Jihad – and some of his videos and some articles. Not all. But it seems obvious he means the Islam he discovered after reading all the violent Hadiths, Tafsirs, etc. I am not lying; I would like him to clarify also – but unfortunately he is very sick now and undergoing chemotheropy and said his stomach cancer looked “very grim

      I say;
      Nabeel Quraish is a liar more than Ergun Carner and we do not need his clarification. He is a tool Christians like Ken Temple are using to tell lies upon lies on Islam to try to stabilize the more Christians like Paul Williams converting to Islam or try to get some illiterate ex-Muslims like Nabeel Quraish himself to convert to Christianity.

      Nabeel said If “I still believed in Islam………….to Syria………” and he lied terribly than Ergun Carner and no Muslim will accept his clarification because we know his ministry is built on lies and deceit.

      STILL, STILL, STILL believed in Islam(Qadiani). Qadianis do not go to Syria to fight because they will be killed by the Muslim fighters there. This is common ABC that a liar like him getting big money from Christians and telling them over and over that he is an ex Muslim and he knows Islam.

      Why not an ex Ahamadis?

      It is like a former protestant Christian telling lies about Catholics and say his former religion allows him to Catholic rituals or a former Catholic lying that he performs Catholic rituals in a Protestant Churches to give the other bad name.

      That is what Nabeel Quraish is doing. His still Islam(Qadiani) do not go to Syria to fight and so he cannot claim he would have gone there if he still believed in Islam(Qadiani) to fight. That is a vicious lie than Ergun Carner lies and no need for clarification.

      Sick
      I wish Nabeel Quraish speedy recovery but this lies happen long time ago when he was not sick and he did not clarified on Dividing Line. Telling lies against someone’s sickness is not good.

      Dr. James White and Ken Temple: He Nabeel Quraish stop saying you are ex-Muslim use ex-Ahmadi.

      Nabeel Quraish: Do you people think I am fool? I am coming to lie and get more money from Christians. If I use ex-Ahmadi, who knows ex-Ahmadi? There is no cash in using ex-Ahmadi but lie and say ex-Muslim or ex-sunni Muslim to Christians and by the end of your speech to them you will have thousand of dollars to buy suits like Creflo A. Dollar, Joel Olsteen, Eddie Lee Long, TD Jake etc.

      Brothere, tha is why I do not want to use ex-Ahmadi but continue to insist on using ex-Muslim or ex-sunni Muslim. That is where the cash lies.

      Thanks.

      Like

  64. “Ken your ad hominem attacks on scholarship you have not read is childish.”

    he washes himself in blood bro.
    they give themselves license to attack.

    Liked by 1 person

  65. Abdullah Kunde is an honorable Muslim.
    New debate between him and Dr. White.
    But the sound quality of Abdullah Kunde’s part is bad. he missed his plane flight and had to do the debate by Skype, unfortunately.

    He repeated that same idea from Imam Gazzali – I wish someone would supply the exact reference, book, page #, year written, etc.

    Like

    • “how can man have peace with god”

      by asking God directly for forgiveness with all his guilt and all his sincerity without bloody go between. only the guilty can make RE-payment, not “sinless lamb”
      if a person hits an old lady, does he hide under jesus’ skirt or directly go to her and apologise? or does he cut open a lamb like the way wild dogs eat lamb alive? or does he imagine in his mind how to trash and beat jesus for hitting an old lady? no, he goes to her and says “sorry”
      christianity is a sick and violent religion.

      Like

    • ///////////////////////////////////

      The discrepancy can be more easily resolved when we realize that God does NOT expect perfection and that He accepts repentance – both concepts clearly articulated in Tanach Psalm 103:14, Psalm 51:19””

      //////////////////////////////////

      And ironically, Rabbi, that is exactly what Christians REALLY believe when they are not trying to convert people, but living their life in a cycle of sin and repentance. How many times have we seen the bumper sticker that reads, “Christians are not Perfect, just Forgiven”?

      This is the catch-22 they face. If God can forgive and welcome an imperfect person, then what is the need for Jesus? On the other hand, if they are still sinning even after accepting Jesus (and ALL of them are, by their own admission), then on what basis are they fit for God’s presence, if sinless perfection is the qualifying criteria? Think about this: if it is about “the blood of Jesus” and “Jesus dying for our sins”, then there is no need for repentance or even right-doing, since God does not consider your sin, but Jesus’ supposed perfection in your place.

      That is why Hebrews chapters 8-10 exposes the fatal flaw of Christian doctrine and the NT. No reason to even bother with the rest of the arguments. Christianity is self-defeating on its most basic premise.

      ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

      Like

    • quote:
      As a result of original sin we cannot pay for our crimes and survive the process, which is to say that we deserve hell for our corruption and disobedience. Fortunately, Jesus ‘bore the sins of the whole world on the cross.’ A sinless person was allowed to undergo the (spiritual) death penalty that we deserve for our sins. This despite the fact that a moral debt, unlike an abstract monetary one, can’t be transferred. There are two conceivable parts of a monetary debt: the money owed, and the moral obligation the debtor might feel that would turn to guilt were the debtor incapable of paying the money and to suffer a conscientious reaction. In a sense, a debtor who finds herself incapable of returning the money owes both money and guilt, a kind of psychological recognition of fault. Were a debtor to find herself broke, and to fail to produce both the money and the consequent guilt the creditor would feel doubly cheated: first for the lack of the proper monetary payment, and second for the lack of the proper emotional response to the debtor’s fault. A debtor might try to substitute for the money owed a recognition of fault with overflowing guilt.

      Imagine a wealthy and selfless replacement debtor (RD) who offers to pay what a destitute debtor owes. The RD could conceivably offer to supply both the money and the guilt. The creditor would have no trouble accepting the money, as long as the money were legally obtained. Money, after all, is abstract: the value attached to a hundred dollar bill has nothing to do with any qualitative superiority of the bill over a mere one dollar bill. The value of money is fixed in abstraction. But would the creditor accept the RD’s display of guilt on behalf of the poor debtor? The moral value of guilt, unlike the value of money, is fixed by the context in which the guilt is expressed. Imagine a hero who after saving twenty children from a burning building responds to her own heroism with a heart-aching display of guilt. Since guilt would be a misplaced emotion under these circumstances, the guilt would have no moral value. On the contrary this “guilt” would be evidence of a disturbed mind. The moral value of guilt, like any emotion, depends on the circumstances under which it’s displayed.

      The primary condition of the moral value of guilt is that the person who displays it must be the same person who owes it. To test this, imagine the RD producing a fine torrent of guilt, complete with tearful eyes and a shame-faced apology, all on behalf of the real debtor, the one who entered into a contract to return a sum of money, who shook hands with the creditor, taking on a personal as well as a legal responsibility. What value could the creditor place on this display of guilt, even if it appeared genuine and heartfelt, so long as it issued, as it were, from the wrong heart? The reason the RD’s guilt would be morally worthless is that guilt is the recognition of one’s own wrongdoing. A thousand other people could be well aware of the debtor’s fault, but only the debtor’s own sorrowful self-acknowledgement would be properly called “guilt.” The notion of stand-in guilt is incoherent. Such guilt could at best be a simulation, at worst a fraud, a bogus, superficial display.

      Likewise the value of punishment, again unlike monetary value, depends fundamentally on the identity of the punishment’s recipient. A replacement convict might offer to undergo the criminal’s punishment, and might succeed in producing genuine suffering. But this suffering would have no moral value, because the fundamental point of punishment is to pay back to the criminal what she is owed. This is the element of retaliation at the heart of all punishment, even of the sort that may serve other functions, such as rehabilitation, vindication of the law or the appeasement of a watchful deity. Retaliation is central to many Christian theories of the atonement. Instead of repaying sinners the harm we have caused with our disobedience, a substitute is produced who offers to accept our ‘sin debt,’ ‘bear our guilt,’ and fulfil our responsibility with his own life. Jesus’ death was God’s payback for our sin, and that’s why the atonement took the form of a violent execution: the misery our sin causes is returned to the sin bearer. Even granting that Jesus was innocent, produced genuine suffering, and died, there is still the problem of the uselessness of his whole endeavour. What is the moral value of a replacement punishment, inflicted not on the offender but on someone who has nothing to do with the crime and who is in fact guiltless? Again, the notion of substitutive punishment is incoherent because punishment, even as defined by many Christian theories of the atonement, involves repayment, which means returning to the offender what is owed her.

      The “re” in “repayment” and “retaliation” refers to the aiming of punishment towards the offender, the one to whom punishment is owed. Hence the concept of substitutive retaliation is incoherent.

      end quote

      Like

    • that long quote is no good since you did not provide reference, author, book, page, link to a blog, etc.

      Like

    • Ezekiel 18:
      “What do you mean that you use this parable over the land of Israel, saying, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3. As truly as I live, says the L-rd G-d, you shall no longer use this parable in Israel. Ezekiel 18:2-3

      isn’t jeremiah making “broader application” james?

      Jeremiah 31 repeats this:
      In those days, they shall no longer say, “Fathers have eaten unripe grapes, and the teeth of the children shall be set on edge.” But each man shall die for his iniquity; whoever eats the unripe grapes- his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:28-29

      Like

  66. Christians don’t seem to think there’s anything wrong with God being a creation or changing. I think there’s something wrong with that.

    A Muslim with any grounding whatsoever in Islamic theology would never become Christian (again!). There’s something more to this story.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Because it is divine, God-breathed (2 Tim. 3:16) revelation:

      John 1:1-5

      1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
      2 He was in the beginning with God.
      3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
      4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
      5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

      John 1:14

      14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

      Philippians 2:5-11

      5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

      6 Who, being in very nature God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
      7 rather, he made himself nothing
      by taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.
      8 And being found in appearance as a man,
      he humbled himself
      by becoming obedient to death—
      even death on a cross!
      9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
      and gave him the name that is above every name,
      10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
      in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
      11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
      to the glory of God the Father.

      Hebrews 1:3
      “He is the radiance of the Father’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, and He upholds all things by the word of His power, and when He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the throne on high.”

      Hebrews 1:6
      “Let all the angels of God worship Him”

      Hebrews 1:8
      But of the Son, He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever . . . ”

      Hebrews 1:10-12
      10 He also says,

      “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
      and the heavens are the work of your hands.
      11 They will perish, but you remain;
      they will all wear out like a garment.
      12 You will roll them up like a robe;
      like a garment they will be changed.
      But you remain the same,
      and your years will never end.”
      13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

      “Sit at my right hand
      until I make your enemies
      a footstool for your feet”?

      Like

    • Cool story. You keep worshiping your invented rational impossibility. Not really my problem. Those verses don’t make your mental gymnastics look any nicer.

      Like

    • are you a fool? the guy was praising a jewish boy praising jewish god (not 3 persons) god as king. the guy has some kind of mental issues. the kid was singing to hashem among other jews. the guy clearly has some problem in his head.

      Like

    • “Christians don’t seem to think there’s anything wrong with God being a creation or changing. I think there’s something wrong with that.”

      this is true.

      Like

  67. “A Christian murdered and raped non Christian. Later the Christian sincerely repented to Christ and Christ will put this Christian murderer into heaven and put the victim to the hell fire Ken Temple is describing above is an injustice to the non Christian.
    The victim of a Christian murderer is put to hell but the Christian perpetrator goes to heaven because he believed Jesus died for his sins. This is the most injustice of the highest degree.”

    But the Christian murderer and rapist must be put to death according to the law of Moses. This is the same for all regardless of their religious beliefs. So there is no injustice. Not so with Sharia law. If a Muslim murders a non-Muslim he cannot be put to death for his crime. He can even buy his freedom if he is rich. This is a great injustice and against the law of Moses.

    If the Christian repents before he is put to death for his crimes he would go to heaven, just like the criminal next to Jesus.

    Like

    • But the Christian murderer and rapist must be put to death according to the law of Moses.

      Madmanna is right – the death penalty for murder and rape should be retained in modern western jurisprudence, contra bleeding heart liberals.

      Like

    • madmanna

      You said;
      But the Christian murderer and rapist must be put to death according to the law of Moses. This is the same for all regardless of their religious beliefs. So there is no injustice. Not so with Sharia law. If a Muslim murders a non-Muslim he cannot be put to death for his crime. He can even buy his freedom if he is rich. This is a great injustice and against the law of Moses.
      If the Christian repents before he is put to death for his crimes he would go to heaven, just like the criminal next to Jesus.

      I say;
      Jay Smith swore that Christians do not follow the law of Moses. I can prove that in his debates with many including Yusuf Ishmael of South Africa. Do you agree with Jay Smith or not.

      Paul of Tarsus said the law was abolished. Christians eat pork so you do not follow the law of Moses. It is disingenuous to say you follow the law of Moses. You do not.

      In addition, you have said nothing because if the Christian repents he will be put to heaven and the non Christian victim put to hell.

      So, you have said nothing and you did not refute me. The Christian murderer after repenting will be put in heaven but the Christian murderer and rapist victim will be punished and put to hell. It still stands and the is the injustice of Jesus Christ to a Christian murderer’s victim which is so gruesome and callous.

      Repentance.

      You said if the Christian murderer REPENT he will be put into heaven. Why not put to heaven if Jesus died for his sins? He repents like anyone else i.e. like Muslims, Jews and Unitarian Christians who do not believe Jesus died for their sins.

      It does not make sense when we are REPENTING because we do not have anyone died for our sins and it makes perfect sense and we find Trinitarians too repenting before their sins are forgiving.

      Why is it that a Trinitarian has to REPENT like Muslims and Jews does before their sins are forgiven?

      The answer is simple and it is because the death of Jesus is useless and REPENTANCE is better than the death of Jesus and it is the key for forgiveness for anyone but not the death of Jesus.

      The Trinitarians are not sure the death of Jesus can save them, hence repenting like anyone else. They realized within their heart that the death of Jesus cannot save them, hence their repenting like anyone else.

      The Christian atonement is useless because they do repent and they cannot sin and want to be forgiven without repenting just like Muslims, Jews and anyone else. If they repent like anyone else, it means they are not sure of the atonement and the death of Christ for their sins otherwise, they will focus on the atonement for their sins to be forgiving rather than repenting like anyone else and put the death of Jesus useless.

      I as a Muslim, I repent when I sin because I do not have someone died for my sins like the Trinitarian.

      I find the Trinitarians too repenting and it shocked me because I taught the have their sins forgiven by the atonement and it appears the atonement could not save them in forgiving their sins but they need repentance by force like anyone else if they need forgiveness.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • correction

      It does make sense when we are REPENTING because we do not have anyone died for our sins and it makes no sense when we find Trinitarians too repenting before their sins are forgiving.

      Like

  68. “A Christian murdered and raped non Christian. Later the Christian sincerely repented to Christ and Christ will put this Christian murderer into heaven and put the victim to the hell fire Ken Temple is describing above is an injustice to the non Christian.
    The victim of a Christian murderer is put to hell but the Christian perpetrator goes to heaven because he believed Jesus died for his sins. This is the most injustice of the highest degree.”

    what would you think of victim of rape voluntarily going to death for the rapist who raped her?

    Like

    • A sinful human cannot do the substitutionary atonement. Also, they have no power for atonement – only the God-man, who is both God and has power, and a man who is without sin; Only Jesus Al Masih is the only sinless man that ever lived.

      Muhammad asked for forgiveness at least 3 times in the Qur’an for his sins.

      Like

    • But God does not die, and he hates human sacrifice.

      Like

    • animals and human sacrifice was practised by the egyptians, romans , greeks and others. when a father willingly gave up his child to one of the gods, then that was symbolic for the persons in trinity giving up one person to the same person.

      Liked by 1 person

    • “A sinful human cannot do the substitutionary atonement. Also, they have no power for atonement – only the God-man, who is both God and has power, and a man who is without sin; Only Jesus Al Masih is the only sinless man that ever lived.”

      ken, i will ask you again

      if a raped victim voluntarily wants to get punished for the acts of her rapist, then would you question her sanity?

      Like

  69. God did not change.

    The second person of the Trinity (the Word, the eternal Son – John 17:5) became a human, without changing His nature. He kept His divine nature and added a human nature.

    Jesus the eternal Word, the eternal Son, took on a human nature.
    (that is what all the verses I gave above, with many more, teach.)

    Like

    • thats like saying a human mind did not change into a fish mind even though it started thinking like a fish. ken, are you on drugs?

      Like

    • Except that is not what Christian theology teaches. God is able to become His own creation if He wants to, and you cannot complain – who are you O man, who answers back to God? See Romans 9:19-21

      Liked by 1 person

    • “Except that is not what Christian theology teaches. God is able to become His own creation if He wants to, and you cannot complain – who are you O man, who answers back to God? See Romans 9:19-21”

      i am the man who caused your gods death LOL
      sins KILL god LOL
      sins cause god to become created LOL
      sins cause mental disturbance in pagan trinity.
      the dad needs to see act of blood spilling while @ same time he remains seated on his throne

      Like

    • Adding something isn’t changing? …what?? How badly did you fail in math?

      Like


    • Except that is not what Christian theology teaches.”

      analogy :
      what you are teaching is that the fish in your fish tank is 100 % human and 100 % fish.
      the 100% human mind is invisible , but the body of the fish and its “fish thinking” is visible.

      christianity is teaching that the human being became a fish

      now , human has “added” additional feature to his eyes, he sees SIDE ways like a fish.

      did the human nature change? of course it did.

      Like

  70. The discrepancy can be more easily resolved when we realize that God does NOT expect perfection and that He accepts repentance – both concepts clearly articulated in Tanach Psalm 103:14, Psalm 51:19””

    Jesus, Isa Al Masih, عیسی المسیح demands perfection:

    “you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48

    Like

    • if god created everyone “born in sin” then it is DUMB to say “as your heavenly father is perfect”
      your god egged himself.

      Like

    • Ecclesiastes 7:29

      This only have I found:
      God created mankind upright, (originally, meaning Adam and Eve)
      but they have gone in search of many schemes.”

      God created Adam and Eve without sin.
      But their sin caused all other humans to be born in sin and corruption and selfishness and rebellion.

      As Augustine wrote:
      “Man, by the wrong use of his free-will, destroyed himself and his free-will . . . ” Enchiridion 30

      “For it was in the evil use of his free will that man destroyed himself and his will at the same time. For as a man who kills himself is still alive when he kills himself, but having killed himself is then no longer alive and cannot resuscitate himself after he has destroyed his own life–so also sin which arises from the action of the free will turns out to be victor over the will and the free will is destroyed. “By whom a man is overcome, to this one he then is bound as slave.” (2 Peter 2:19)

      Like

    • “God created Adam and Eve without sin.
      But their sin caused all other humans to be born in sin and corruption and selfishness and rebellion”

      like hank you are only worse. the intelligent thing for your god was to make the tree taller .

      Like

    • why does no one need useless “sacrifice” of yesu

      quote:

      And ironically, Rabbi, that is exactly what Christians REALLY believe when they are not trying to convert people, but living their life in a cycle of sin and repentance. How many times have we seen the bumper sticker that reads, “Christians are not Perfect, just Forgiven”?

      This is the catch-22 they face. If God can forgive and welcome an imperfect person, then what is the need for Jesus? On the other hand, if they are still sinning even after accepting Jesus (and ALL of them are, by their own admission), then on what basis are they fit for God’s presence, if sinless perfection is the qualifying criteria? Think about this: if it is about “the blood of Jesus” and “Jesus dying for our sins”, then there is no need for repentance or even right-doing, since God does not consider your sin, but Jesus’ supposed perfection in your place.

      That is why Hebrews chapters 8-10 exposes the fatal flaw of Christian doctrine and the NT. No reason to even bother with the rest of the arguments. Christianity is self-defeating on its most basic premise.

      Like

    • no child chooses to be “born in sin” and he definitely did not create himself

      so

      if god created everyone “born in sin” then it is DUMB to say “as your heavenly father is perfect”

      Like

  71. “Madmanna is right – the death penalty for murder and rape should be retained in modern western jurisprudence, contra bleeding heart liberals.”

    but jesus died for rapists, murderers, homosexuals , lesbians, idolaters etc etc
    yhwh punished himself for all sins from all years .
    he split himself from his person. he showered his wrath on himself and human punishments are not divine punishments . yhwh gets a buzz from divine punishments because they are “sinless” acts.
    so why punish the murderer? just tell him to go to the victim and say, “hey raped victim, my act has already been atoned, just believe, the laws of yhwh have been nailed to the cross”

    Like

  72. “A sinful human cannot do the substitutionary atonement. Also, they have no power for atonement – only the God-man, who is both God and has power, and a man who is without sin; Only Jesus Al Masih is the only sinless man that ever lived.”

    your god is impotent to create a sinless human being without filling it with “god material” ?
    does he like becoming created and passing wind from his backside? does he like getting tempted by satan for 40 days and God knows what disgusting thoughts were coming in his mind?


    Muhammad asked for forgiveness at least 3 times in the Qur’an for his sins.”

    if the man god was in jewish places of worship and did not join in with the jews who said “oh god, i have sinned…” he would have automatically become an arrogant sinner.

    Like

  73. “God created Adam and Eve without sin.
    But their sin caused all other humans to be born in sin and corruption and selfishness and rebellion.”

    did god create himself with or without sin? if without, how comes he was impotent in protecting adam from sinning by having adam freely choosing right over wrong? where was his spirit ? did it not like hiding in adams flesh? how comes yesu gets a filling, but adam didn’t?

    god already drowned everybody. but kept sinful people on a boat fooling them that their deeds saved them

    even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

    adam didn’t even know how to distinguish between good and evil because he only found out AFTER he eat the fruit. so when eve offered adam fruit, adam must have thought it was good advice because he didn’t know how to distinguish yet.

    Like

  74. LOL. Paul Williams wrote: The Gospel of John was written … by an unknown author.
    If that is your benchmark, you have to leave islam today: NOBODY knows who wrote which surah. And NOBODY knows when and who the quran compiled. You muslims rely on very late written (200-250 years after Muhammad’s death) hadith only.

    The ‘muslim-double-standard’…

    Like

  75. “The second person of the Trinity (the Word, the eternal Son – John 17:5) became a human, without changing His nature. He kept His divine nature and added a human nature.”

    god BECAME a human

    the mouse became a human

    did the mouse use its animal nature to become a human?

    did god with divine nature become a human ?

    of course.

    Jesus the eternal Word, the eternal Son, took on a human nature.
    (that is what all the verses I gave above, with many more, teach.)”

    so not only did your god become a HUMAN being but he had thoughts like one. he took on seeing like a human, hearing like one, speaking like one, eating like one and improving like one

    gods invisible nature changed.

    the nature human nature of robocop changed when parts of its brain BECAME electronical.

    Like

  76. “He kept His divine nature and added a human nature”

    add
    ad/Submit
    verb
    1.
    join (something) to something else so as to increase the size, number, or amount.

    god “increased ” himself LOL

    did he increase in not knowing
    not hearing like humans
    not seeing everything like humans

    LOL

    Like

  77. Ken Temple

    YKen Temple
    November 25, 2016 • 11:51 pm
    Except that is not what Christian theology teaches. God is able to become His own creation if He wants to, and you cannot complain – who are you O man, who answers back to God? See Romans 9:19-21ou said;

    I say;
    Yes, the Hindu Monkey-God is the brother of the God-Man Christian God because they are God becoming creatures and we cannot answer back to God.

    We have snake-God of voodoo too and no one can answer back to God and Ken Temple has other snake-God, Monkey-God, Elephant-Gods because he believes God can become creature.

    We have so many creature Gods and Ken Temple believe God can become a creature so he has so many creature Gods including ant-Gods.

    Thanks.

    Like

    • “become His own creation if He wants to, and you cannot complain”

      the hindus worship the cow as god.

      u would worship a man leaving an empty tomb.

      that cow could be god-cow.

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      November 25, 2016 • 11:51 pm
      Except that is not what Christian theology teaches. God is able to become His own creation if He wants to, and you cannot complain – who are you O man, who answers back to God? See Romans 9:19-21

      I say;
      Any idol theology teaches
      God is able to become His own creation if He wants to, and you cannot complain – who are you O man, who answers back to God?

      Yeah man creature Gods

      -Jesus Christ
      -Sai Baba
      -Emperor Haile Selaissie
      -Hindus Monkey-God
      -Cow-God
      -Elephant-God
      -Snake-God
      -Statue
      -Fish-God etc.

      Ken Temple believes creature(above) Gods. Ken Temple and any idol worshiper believes God can become his own creation if He wants to and we cannot complain. That is why the above idols are there and idol worshipers believe the same like Ken Temple believe God can become his creations and no one can answer back. Pure idol thinking and idol worship by Ken Temple and other idol worshipers who think God can become his creations.

      I believe God cannot become his creations.

      Why did God blame the Jews for worshiping the Golden calf? The golden calf is a creature

      Romans 1:25 ESV /
      Because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

      Leviticus 26:1 ESV /
      “You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God.

      Proof
      “there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
      “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
      “Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
      “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
      “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
      “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
      “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
      “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
      “You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
      “O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
      “You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
      “For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
      “You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20

      Ken Temple, the Bible said you a lying God the creator cannot become a creature cannot become a creature and the verse clearly warned against it.

      ——
      Exodus 20:1-10 ESV /
      And God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, …
      ——-

      God said do not worship creature and Ken Temple is saying God became creature to be worshiped. Why is God saying he is a jealous God and the likeness of anything is forbidden to be worshiped an Ken is saying we must worship a creature?

      Trinitarian is idolatry.

      Thanks

      Like

  78. “…he hates human sacrifice.” Paul

    Indeed, which is why the most painful aspect of the Crucifixion was the shame of it. It was abhorrent. It was a despicable scene watching his son die a brutal, unjust death. It was equally awful for his son as he died on a tree.

    For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.…

    I’ve heard people say that Christ’s death wasn’t all that bad because he knew in just a few hours he would be in paradise. Hardly anyone dies willingly even for a good person. He died willingly for those who were guilty of murder and rape and child abuse. Would any commenter who hates Christians willingly die for Christians?

    Like

    • Hank L. Birnbaum III

      -correction

      Christ said “My God why have you forsaken me” and so he did not willingly die.

      Jesus said he was sent, so he did not come willingly.

      No one hate Christians here because some of us and me for instance has Christian family that I love and will protect by all means. All of us have Christian friends, team members, co workers, advisors, co staff etc. No one hate Christians here.

      We are just saying it as it is. On the other hand some Christians said they hate Muslims here on this blog and they still comment to voice their feelings.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • correction Christ said “My God why have you forsaken me” and so he did not willingly die.

      That is not a correction.

      Like

    • “No one hate Christians here…”

      How would you characterize the plethora of statements which refer to Christians in despicable terms?

      Like

    • “…he hates human sacrifice.” Paul

      except that of innocent virgins

      ” It was a despicable scene watching his son die a brutal, unjust death. It was equally awful for his son as he died on a tree.”

      it couldn’t have been. through each nail god was appeasing himself and celebrating his defeat of death.
      . all the “equally awful” thoughts or whatever would be replaced by “millions joining a god in heaven (or hell) and the thought of coming back to life after a few days”

      “Hardly anyone dies willingly even for a good person. He died willingly for those who were guilty of murder and rape and child abuse. Would any commenter who hates Christians willingly die for Christians?”

      jesus hated the pharisees. he condemned them to hell. the father would willingly punish the pharisees in furnace.

      Liked by 1 person

    • “that is not a correct”

      hank, if you are honest person, ask yourself why would the last gospel remove jesus’ prayer in the garden (The NIV tells translates John 18:1 as they wished it were written: “When he had finished praying . . .” Of course, John’s gospel never uses the noun for prayer or the verb to pray.), his emotional sorrow, “my soul is deeply troubled even unto death”
      “remove this cup from me”
      “fell down on his face and prayed”

      tell the truth why would he remove this

      why would he remove jesus’ reluctance? why would he “clean up ” jesus?

      because he thinks his lamb is without blemish.

      Like

    • “But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.…”

      if god really “loved” us, he would put christs “sacrifice” aside and allow us to beseech him without intermediary. direct link. but god wants people to go through the roman tool of execution.
      why? because he sees no worth in the human being. he sees the human as trash, worthless, spiritual wreck and if one does not accept the blood of virgin, he would punish people worse than christs weekend “sacrifice”
      human are left in spiritual trash state and need to cover gods face with “blood of christ” and tell him ” hey god , look at what christ did….”
      this is love?
      this is god in love with brutal sacrifice and deeds of christ. you are saying the dad is only tolerating you because of some one else. there is no love here. love means direct conversation without a go between. direct line. direct hello , hi.

      Like

  79. If I’d been Wallace, I might have said something like this in closing: “Friends, I think I’ve shown that for every skeptical argument Bart Ehrman advances, there is a reasonable response that shows the Bible to be more reliable than he makes it out to be. But in the end, how many of us believe in the Bible because of text criticism, or the number of manuscripts, or differences in the variants? The bigger questions, I submit to you, are these: Is Christianity true? Is Jesus divine? Did Jesus die on the cross for our sins? Did he rise from the dead? Is Jesus the only way? What is the gospel? Will you and I believe? There are many believers in this audience who have become convinced that the Bible is true and that Jesus is real. We’ll continue to advance arguments and counter-arguments on the minutiae of textual matters, and those matter, but let’s not forget the bigger picture. The Bible is trustworthy, and Christianity is true. Hopefully, we can all agree on that. Thank you very much.”

    Andreas J. Kostenberger

    Like

Trackbacks

  1. Response to Ken Temple at Blogging Theology | primaquran
  2. Missionary Mishap: Isma’eel Abu Adam | Calling Christians
  3. Twitter exchange with apostate Neil Littlejohn (fake Muslim ID: ‘Ismaa’eel Abu Adam’ – Blogging Theology

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