A beautifully produced video asking some brilliantly incisive questions.
Categories: Bible, Christianity, God, Islam, Wisdom
- Comment
- Reblog
-
Subscribe
Subscribed
Already have a WordPress.com account? Log in now.
Blogging Theology 
Can you post the link to the video?! For some reason as of late I have been unable to view video posts on your blog
LikeLike
that is because they are not on youtube but from Facebook.
LikeLike
try this
http://www.facebook.com/darussalam.sns/videos/756103117856139/
LikeLike
Cheers my man!
LikeLike
Ok, God sacrificed Jesus (i.e. himself) to himself as a final blood sacrifice to fulfill the law of Moses. Ok, got that.
But he did it as a high priest of the order of Melchizedek??? No blood sacrifice needed here …
LikeLiked by 1 person
But human sacrifice is an abomination according to the OT.
LikeLiked by 1 person
What a tangled web
LikeLike
I view the killing of apostates in Islam as human sacrifice.
Human sacrifice usually is made as a means to stave off the wrath of a god. Apostates in Islam are killed so that apostasy does not take root amongst the faithful and this sin, like all others incurs the punishment and wrath of Allah.
Those who do not administer divine punishment against those commit sins against allah are also sinners, thus killing apostates is a sacrifice to stave off Allah’s punishment and wrath.
Thus, human sacrifice is implicit in the practice of Islam.
LikeLike
Duck are you high on something?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dirk, there are all sort of idiotic opinions out there. Some believe “elohim” refers to space aliens.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Burhanuddin1
What is the idiotic opinion of which you speak?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Paul
No, I’m not high on anything but the love of the One True God.
Any faith that whose adherents are commanded to kill other people is endorsing an implicit practice of human sacrifice.
Human sacrifice takes place for the benefit of those who offer the sacrifice because if you do not follow that command, then you have disobeyed God’s command and you incur his punishment and wrath.
Likewise, killing apostates – but also those who disbelieve, or even those who insult you know who – is sacrificing humans for the sake of those doing the killing because it is obeying god’s commands and not incurring his punishment and wrath.
There’s nothing controversial about this viewpoint – in fact, it is so obvious as to be absurd that you guys don’t see it.
On the other hand, we who love JESUS view killing others for our GOD as a great sin not least because it inhibits the opportunity for people to repent and come to HIM.
As the Good Book says, woe unto the hypocrites who shut off the Kingdom of Heaven from people. (Matt. 23:13)
LikeLike
I don’t understand. You believe your God is loving and kind so why would he will that his beloved son be horribly tortured to death? Sounds kinda of unloving to me
LikeLiked by 1 person
Paul
That sounds like a diversionary tactic to me. Do you agree with my reasoning or not?
If not, why not?
LikeLike
“That sounds like a diversionary tactic to me.”
Oh Duck you do make me laugh. All your comments are a diversionary tactic to avoid discussing the post ‘Did God sacrifice Jesus?’
My comment tries to get us back on topic. At least pretend not to be a troll. It makes it much more fun.
Now back to my comment:
You believe your God is loving and kind so why would he will that his beloved son be horribly tortured to death? Sounds kinda of unloving to me
LikeLike
Paul
To save creation from the clutches of sin.
Now you. How are the practices I outlined above not human sacrifice.
LikeLike
lol not so fast Duck. Lots more to discuss.
When I look at the world today, at the earthquakes, famine, wars, diseases and suffering I do not see a world ‘saved from the clutches of sin’ – whatever that mysterious phrase might mean. On the contrary.
So clearly Jesus’s cruel death did not change the world in any appreciable way.
But you did not address my question: how can a loving God will that his beloved son be horribly tortured to death?
Perhaps you do not understand my question?
LikeLike
Paul
I think that you would do anything to avoid facing the obvious. You brought up the subject of human sacrifice in the OT, not me and now you are complaining that it is off topic. Do I believe that GOD has morally sufficient reasons for HIS actions? Yes. Do I claim to know what they are? No, of course not.
So again, I’ve answered your questions, please answer mine.
How is it not human sacrifice to kill those deemed to have sinned when it has been commanded by Allah, knowing that not doing so incurs his wrath and punishment?
LikeLike
Dirk
You said;
Paul
To save creation from the clutches of sin.
I say;
You are wrong Sir. It did not save creation from sin. Creations are more sinners today than before. Both Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist etc. in any walk of life are fornicating, murdering, armed robbing, cheating, gambling etc.
On the Christians side I want to mention names to make it clear that Jesus did not save Christians from sin and therefore Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Eddie Lee Long, Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby, The Church Fathers and many more Christians are worse sex offenders to prove Jesus sacrifice did not save Christians from sin.
There is no human sacrifice in Islam. You did not quote a single verse from the Quran that says a human should be sacrificed for another’s sin.
Jesus is not loving because Jesus said;
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
Jesus does not love his enemy and himself and committed suicide that cannot save anyone. A father who kill his son for sacrifice is not a loving father.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Intellect!
Do you agree that killing those whom Allah commands you to kill is not human sacrifice? If not, can you explain how it is how that human sacrifice as a means of staving off God’s wrath and punishment as practiced amongst some peoples not of the book, differ from the Muslim practice of capital punishment for apostates, and others as a means to do Allah’s will and stave off his wrath for not obeying?
LikeLike
Duck, you confessed you have no idea why your god does what he does:
“Do I believe that GOD has morally sufficient reasons for HIS actions? Yes. Do I claim to know what they are? No”
So you believe blindly in your religion, without any rational or moral reason! Sad.
It is obvious that your religion is barbaric and should be rejected by any reasonable, sane person.
Why? Because you think that the only way God can forgive your sins is by cruelly killing an innocent human being.
This horrific ideology is repugnant. So I quite understand the obsessive need you have to get off the subject at all costs and criticise other religions.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Paul
In no way do I agree with your observations. Again, I have answered your questions, please answer mine.
Do you agree that the prescription of capital punishment for apostates and others who sin against Allah are tantamount to human sacrifice? If you disagree, why?
I see a clear parallel; Islam calls for capital punishment for some sins against Allah, not doing so disobeys his will and incurs his wrath and punishment, therefore, Islam calls for the sacrifice of humans as a means to stave off this wrath. Where is the fault in my reasoning?
LikeLike
how can you say you have answered my question when you confess to not knowing the answers!
You say you “disagree with my observations” yet you admit you have no idea why your god does what he does!
So no, on this thread we will be discussing the topic of the post. You follow your religion blindly, without reason, without moral justification.
You need to start thinking about christianity and why you follow it.
You believe your God is loving and kind so why would he will that his beloved son be horribly tortured to death? Sounds kinda of unloving to me.
Give me a reason why anyone should follow this?
LikeLike
Dirk
Sacrifice and or blood cannot “starve off God’s wrath”. If you think that you commit sin. God’s Mercy triumph over God’s wrath. It is said in the Quran that “Allah’s Mercy triumph over His Wrath” so human beings must continue asking for God’s Mercy like in the Bible’s prodigal Son story.
If you say something can block God’s wrath apart from prayers, repentance and obedience to God Himself you commit a big sin.
That is our purpose in life to be obedient in our creator and to love Him and serve Him and obey His laws and command.
Even a Christian who believed in the blood sacrifice cannot be saved unless he is obedient, repentant and follow God’s rule and law.
So, the repentance triumphs over blood sacrifice even in Christianity.
In Islam it is clear that the heaven is available for obedient servant and so we must strive and do our best to attain heaven by continue to work and follow Gods law, rule and not commit murder, un marital sex, lying, cheating etc.
By sincerely believing and loving a one and only and alone God just like the Jews, His Mercy can lead you to avoid most sins. That is why we keep praying everyday and fasting and other duties.
Fasting purifies the heart in that, one can eat food in his room but his heart is telling him his God is watching him and he will not eat foot until the time. All the Islamic rituals is there to help the individual to abstain from sins and the sincere ones do abstain from most sins and purify their hearts.
There is no human sacrifice in Islam at all and you could not prove that. We follow the torah and we do animal sacrifice to remember to obedience of Abraham who also sacrificed an animal and not human because God prevented him from doing so at the end and we distribute the meat to the poor and celebrate the obedience of Abraham to God by following Gods command.
Capital punishment in Islam is for murder and treason but not apostasy but it is done public to deter others from doing it so that society will be free of criminals and those who will cause mischief and had nothing to do with sacrifice.
Heaven and Hell is there for the righteous and a sinner so any sacrifice for sin is not needed.
Back to the topic. Jesus is not loving because he commanded his enemies to be killed and that is what the republican candidates and their supporters want to do to Muslims by attacking Iran, (the remaining un attacked Majority Muslim country with a lot of Jews and Christian indigenous citizens) with the Zionist Jews and to ban Muslims from travelling to any Christian majority countries like how the Christians did in Spain and Europe to send Jewish ship load of migrants back to Europe to die in holocaust commanded by un loving Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
The Ottoman sultan chattered ships to bring persecuted Jews to Muslim majority lands. Jesus is not loving according to scriptures and the Christians are following that today.
Thanks.
LikeLike
“Duck are you high on something?” LOL. My guess – too much “holy” spirit
LikeLiked by 2 people
Duck you did not address my observation above:
When I look at the world today, at the earthquakes, famine, wars, diseases and suffering I do not see a world ‘saved from the clutches of sin’ as you put it – whatever that mysterious phrase might mean. On the contrary.
So clearly Jesus’s cruel death did not change the world in any appreciable way.
This is true no?
LikeLike
Dirk
You said;
I see a clear parallel; Islam calls for capital punishment for some sins against Allah, not doing so disobeys his will and incurs his wrath and punishment, therefore, Islam calls for the sacrifice of humans as a means to stave off this wrath. Where is the fault in my reasoning?
I say;
Capital punishment is for treason and murder and not for sacrifice. It is done in public to deter others from doing so and society will be free from criminals and not for sacrifice of sin or wrath of God. A murderer can be set free if he repents to the family of the diseased and they thought is sincere and they forgive him.
It is not by force to kill in a command of capital punishment in Islam as in Christian God must kill his son by force to be able to forgive sins. He could not be able to stop sin after that and could not forgive sin without repentance after that.
Thanks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Paul
I know exactly why I follow JESUS, but the question at hand – on a subject that you raised in one of your earlier comments – concerns human sacrifice as a moral abomination.
I have submitted – numerous times – my reasons for believing that Islam sanctions the practice, you refuse to answer, and Intellect seems to be coming from some place other than the here and now.
I can only presume that you simply cannot refute the observation that human sacrifice is fundamental to Islamic practice. Capital punishment for some sins in Islam is tantamount to human sacrifice. I consider my point of view validated.
LikeLike
Dirk, you are a real pain … We both agree “killing Jesus” is defined as a human sacrifice.
We probably also agree that “killing apostates” is NOT defined as a human sacrifice.
We most probably do not agree that your attempt of defining “killing apostates” as a human sacrifice is to be taken seriously.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dirk you ask “What is the idiotic opinion of which you speak?”
E.g. “To save creation from the clutches of sin.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ducky, Burhanuddin1 has refuted you.
Now stop running away and do tells us what you mean by: “To save creation from the clutches of sin.”
cos it don’t look very saved to me
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, Duck, you believe your God is so loving and kind so that he has his beloved son horribly tortured to death – to save creation from the clutches of sin?
Well that’s obviously a megafail
LikeLiked by 1 person
Burhanuddin1
So your defence is that Islam does not practice human sacrifice because you say it does not?
Contrary to what Paul thinks, I find that to be extremely weak reasoning.
Killing those who commit capital sin against Allah serves many if not all of the same purposes as human sacrifice – namely, it staves off the wrath of god. Your redefinition does not change this awkward fact.
Paul
See above. Unrefuted.
LikeLike
Dirk
You said;
Killing those who commit capital sin against Allah serves many if not all of the same purposes as human sacrifice – namely, it staves off the wrath of god. Your redefinition does not change this awkward fact.
Paul
See above. Unrefuted.
I say;
Without quoting from our scripture that says;
“Capital punishment is human sacrifice or it starves off the wrath of God”
and assuming it says so by you is ridiculous.
Is the capital punishment in some states in the US, human sacrifice?
What did those killed by capital punishment in the US atonement for sin?
Thanks.
LikeLike
“So your defence is that Islam does not practice human sacrifice because you say it does not?”
Ducky, welcome to reality. No, you are saying Islam practices “human sacrifice”. Everyone else says that’s absolutely bullshit.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ducky is a troll and he cannot help vomit bullshit. Thats how we know his religion is false.
LikeLike
Burhanuddin1
So you are suggesting that killing apostates or others as a means to obey the commands of Allah is not sacrificing other people to please him? Doesn’t obedience to Allah please him? If you don’t obey these commands have you displeased Allah and thus incur his wrath and punishment?
Please explain how this is dissimilar to those religious practices that call for the sacrifice of humans as a means to stave off god’s wrath and please him. I see very little difference except that you are saying that it is different.
LikeLike
Intellect
It is not commanded by God, therefore cannot be viewed as sacrifice. Neither are capital punishments considered to be infractions against God in a legal sense.
LikeLike
The logic of the video isn’t coherent. If you sacrifice something in order to gain something else, what has God gained in sacricinig His time to teach and guide human beings?
You may argue that God is eternal so has no time to “sacrifice” but He has clearly been in contact with human beings at different points in time, such as with the progression of different prophets. So there is an element of time involved.
That being the case, what does God gain from anything that He does? Creating the universe, sustaining it, giving life to different creatures, sending prophets to speak in His name etc, what does God gain from doing any of that? If the answer is that God gains nothing from doing all of this, then you also have an answer for Jesus’ crucifixion, God gains nothing from it. Jesus’ “sacrifice”, just like God creating human beings and guiding them, is not for God’s sake but for ours.
Indeed, a clear reading of the NT on this topic makes it clear that what Jesus did on the cross was for us. And there is something that God “gains” if you want to call it that… God gains glory and honour for the things that He has done for us.
Even if you don’t believe in Jesus’ crucifixion, this argument is not coherent because the same logic can be applied to other forms of “sacrifices” that God has done for humanity, and that will cause the argument to fall.
LikeLike
Dick. I’m only suggesting this “human sacrifice” agenda of yours is absolutely idiotic. Period.
LikeLike
Transcendence
You said;
Indeed, a clear reading of the NT on this topic makes it clear that what Jesus did on the cross was for us. And there is something that God “gains” if you want to call it that… God gains glory and honour for the things that He has done for us.
I say;
Gain. So does God gain from someone raping other person wife and killing her without repenting and killing another persons wife and raping children till he die? Does God gain from this Satanic act?
Jesus death on the cross for not doing anything is torturous and murder. Does God gain from this bad act? We he commanded us not to torture and kill any innocent person? God even said not torture and kill animal even if you are using the animal food, slaughter it fast, so that it will not have pain.
Jesus death is torture and pain and I do not think a righteous God will gain anything from it.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Burhanuddin1
Why is it idiotic? I have shown that there are clear – and sometimes identical – characteristics present in human sacrifice and the Islamic practice of killing apostates or others who transgressed Allah’s commands.
In both cases a god or gods command the spilling of human blood to stave of their wrath and punishment. You seem completely unable to explain how these are different, thus they must be the same.
LikeLike
Dirk
You said;
In both cases a god or gods command the spilling of human blood to stave of their wrath and punishment. You seem completely unable to explain how these are different, thus they must be the same.
I say;
You did not provide any evidence from our scripture to support your point and Dr. James White said shame on you Christians with what you do to others and to not want the same done to you or to put the shoe onto the other foot.
I showed you a point that murderer can be set free and it is not compulsory to kill a murderer or some one who commits treason but is compulsory for the Christian God to murder his son to forgive sins that he could not forgive in the end and you refuse to accept my explanation.
With regards to human sacrifice, we are not putting our ideas into Christianity but Christians believe a human being is sacrificed for their sins and that is against the torah.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Intellect
Again, no refutation of my points.
LikeLike
Actually Ducky you have been repeatedly refuted. the problem is that you are just too stupid to realise it lol
LikeLike
Intellect, you have failed to understand my point.
Read Isaiah 53 for a better understanding at least. I’m quite aware that no Muslim believes Isaiah 53 is about Jesus. I’m not asking you to read it as though it were Jesus. I’m just asking you to read it and see that even through pain and suffering, God can turn anything into something good.
You said Jesus’ death was torture and pain and a righteous God will not gain anything from it, yet plenty of prophets have gone through torture and pain all under the watchful eye of God, including your own prophet. Am I to then argue that those things didn’t actually happen to the prophets or that God is not righteous because He allowed the prophets to experience pain, and even death according to the Quran also? (See for example Surah 2:61, 2:87, 2:91, 3:21, 3:112, 3:181, 3:183, 4:155, 5:70)
Take for example the story of Joseph in Surah 12. Joseph went through pain and torture, being sold as a slave by his own brothers and then being wrongly accused of adultery and going to prison for it. Is this story no longer true because according to your logic, Joseph experienced pain so God is no longer righteous? Yet as it was put by Joseph himself in Genesis 50:20 “you plotted evil against me, but God turned it into good, in order to preserve the lives of many people who are alive today because of what happened.”
Likewise I can say of Jesus’ crucifixion that the evil that occurred to him was turned into good by God as Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven, and of course his name is known and honoured by people all over the world.
LikeLike
Paul
Well I’ve seen lots of personal insult and butthurt but absolutely no meaningful refutation of the extremely simple point that the spilling of human blood to stave of the wrath and punishment of gods amongst non-Muslims and Allah amongst Muslims are both human sacrifice.
LikeLike
Transcendence
You said;
Likewise I can say of Jesus’ crucifixion that the evil that occurred to him was turned into good by God as Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven, and of course his name is known and honoured by people all over the world.
I say;
It is the act that God condemned not the result. The act of killing innocent is bad according to the Bible. You deliberately torture and kill someone, you commit sin according to the Bible.
Joseph brothers and those who attacked any prophet commit sin. So God killing his Son or committing suicide to himself is a sin and unacceptable.
The End result can be good but the act of killing, torture, murder, rape etc. are all bad and must be condemned.
Yes, even in Islam, some pain and suffering allowed to happen to a servant of God is a test and he passes the test if he continues to worship his one God and could be healed by God for his servant to enjoy here and the here after.
That does not mean his attacker will go scot free without sincere repentance. So the torture of Jesus and killing him by who sent him knowingly or is it sending himself knowingly to die is a sin and bad, human sacrifice and against the torah.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Dirk ,
Your argument about apostates are to be killed in Islam comes from your statement per your post of Dec 19 – 8.58am. It is just a statement without any reference or source. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?
Killing of apostates have been discussed over and over again in this blog. The following article was published in this blog a couple of years ago :
http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/09/apostasy/
‘…“The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: this is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” (Quran, 5:33)
Notice how similar the above verse is to the Hadith mentioned in Sunan Abu Dawud (above). The Hadith mentions the one “who went out fighting against God and His Messenger” whilst the Quran says “those who wage war against God and His Apostle,” and the punishment for such is also the same in both: “killed or crucified or exiled from the land.”…’
I think it is best if you can provide any source or reference that supports you in your argument.
What say you?
LikeLiked by 2 people
With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Dirk, last time I checked with the Bible, I read:
So this “human sacrifice” was mandated explicitly by God .
In the simplest form, the Bible condemns murder and calls for the “human sacrifice” of the murderer. The one who intentionally takes life by murder forfeits the right to his own life.
Even in the NT, Paul of Tarsus instructs Christians in Rom 13:4 that
What do use a sword for?? obviously not for christmas decoration but for “human sacrifice” like Paul of Tarsus has said.
LikeLike
Sam1528
I enjoy the loonwatch site very much, thanks for the link. I don’t see how it has anything to do with my quibbles. Saying that Islamophobes misrepresent Islam is like saying Communists misrepresent Capitalism – it doesn’t really add much to the dialogue.
What is important is how Muslims of past and present view apostasy. In my reading, all three of the main schools of shariah – hanafi, maliki, and shafi’i – all proscribe death for apostasy. Some more “moderate” scholars suggest that punishment for apostasy only be capital when it is compounded with insults to the prophet and sometimes Islam in general.
This means that it is not really my responsibility to prove whether Islam’s main sharia schools are wrong about their claims – if they believe that apostasy deserves death, then I trust their knowledge of the subject.
The issue remains; Islam – according to the main sharia schools say that apostates must die and that not doing so is disobeying god. This means that humans must die to appease Allah, hence, human sacrifice.
Eric
I see Gen 9:6 as echoing JESUS’ teaching that whomsoever lives by the sword, dies by the sword – a mere truism.
But all of that is beside the point and I think we all know it. The call to kill apostates amounts to human sacrifice since it meets many of the same criteria for those religions that practice it.
LikeLike
That should read “prescribe” not “proscribe”.
LikeLike
“I see Gen 9:6 as echoing JESUS’ teaching that whomsoever lives by the sword, dies by the sword – a mere truism.”
According to Dirk
LikeLike
Eric
It’s fine that you think that.
But, do you also fail to see the parallels between human sacrifice and killing apostates?
LikeLike
Dirk, naturally anybody will fail to understand how one can relate “death punishment” to “human sacrifice”.
Human sacrifice is always an expression of religious devotion, in pauline theology the mantra: “sacrifice to die (ie. suicide) to let another free of sin”.
It always involves rituals and the offering must possess supreme value which they could make to propitiate the anger of the gods and thus win their favor and help. They are not just law offender against actions which merit death.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Dirk ,
Sorry to say , the link that I provided has everything to say about argument.
Your argument is very simple – in all the Islamic schools of thought , death is prescribed for apostasy therefore Islam glorify human sacrifice because of the death penalty.
This is just wrong ….. very wrong
Go back to the link provided –
‘…..Since the four schools of thought were defined and codified hundreds of years ago, doesn’t it already go without saying that the four schools of jurisprudence would take the traditional and classical opinion on the matter? Stated another way: as the four schools were codified hundreds of years ago, is it any surprise that they should follow the old way of looking at the matter as opposed to the new? So what exactly is the critic trying to say? It is simply restating and repackaging the obvious attack in attempt to give an air of authority to it.
His statement also betrays a superficial understanding of the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. The four schools are not defined by their final rulings or verdicts, but rather based on their methodology (Usul). Within a school itself, all sorts of conflicting opinions can be found, since a school is defined not by a ruling but by the methodology one uses to arrive at such a ruling. In other words, contemporary Muslims can still follow the same methodology and arrive at different conclusions, without betraying the school of thought itself. Many followers of the four schools have done so with regard to the issue of apostasy.
So the fact that a person follows a school of jurisprudence does not at all mean that he must commit himself to one particular ruling. Furthermore, many Muslims do not follow a school of jurisprudence at all, with still others claiming that it is wrong to follow the four schools whatsoever. Bottom line: there are diverse opinions on this matter, and to pigeonhole Muslims into a particular belief is wrong. It is just wrong to speak on behalf of Muslims; let them speak for themselves! ….’
This is not the first time a person comes forward and argue that the death penalty is prescribed for apostates in all the major Schools of Thought in Islam – slam dunk – no muslim can refute my argument.
It is not as straight forward as per your argument. There exist lots of diverse opinions on this issue but you just take one and claim it represent Islam and all muslims. Please don’t do that.
Prof Abdal Hakim Murad (T Winters) :
https://ageofjahiliyah.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/abdal-hakim-murad-on-jihad-apostasy-rights-of-muslim-women/
‘…The four canonical schools of Sunni Islamic law, and also most pre-modern Shi’a jurists, recommend similarly drastic penalties, although the judge is enjoined to ‘look for ambiguities’ in order to avert the death penalty wherever possible.
The Ottoman Caliphate, the supreme representative of Sunni Islam, formally abolished this penalty in the aftermath of the so-called Tanzimat reforms launched in 1839. The Shaykh al-Islam, the supreme head of the religious courts and colleges, ratified this major shift in traditional legal doctrine. It was pointed out that there is no verse in the Qur’an that lays down a punishment for apostasy (although chapter 5 verse 54 and chapter 2 verse 217 predict a punishment in the next world). It was also pointed out that the ambiguities in the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet) suggest that apostasy is only an offense when combined with the crime of treason. These ambiguities led some medieval Muslims, long before the advent of modernisation, to reject the majority view. Prominent among them one may name al-Nakha’i (d.713), al-Thawri (d.772), al-Sarakhsi (d. 1090), al-Baji (d. 1081), and al-Sha’rani (d.1565). The debate triggered by the Ottoman reform was continued when al-Azhar University in Cairo, the supreme religious authority in the Arab world, delivered a formal fatwa (religious edict) in 1958, which confirmed the abolition of the classical law in this area.
Among radical Salafis and Wahhabis who do not accept the verdicts of the Ottoman or the Azhar scholars, it is generally believed that the majority medieval view should still be enforced…’
How is it that you can claim Islam glorify human sacrifice because all the Schools of Thought prescribe the death penalty but you do not even understand the complications associated with such an issue?
Your argument is just too simplistic and naive.
LikeLike
Eric
Actually Eric, human sacrifice is not limited to a single definition. Islamic law’s judgement to kill apostates meets many of these and the criteria you have suggested above.
Killing apostates prevents them from doing “mischief in the land”, and is an act of submission to the will of Allah – in other words, it is an expression of religious devotion to Allah, as well as means to keep others from sin.
I see that as an acknowledgement that killing apostates – and others deemed worthy of death in sharia – as a human sacrifice that averts Allah’s wrath and punishment, shows religious devotion and expiates sin.
The latter meets the demands of Islamic thought that maintains sin is offset by good works – thus, those who kill apostates are balancing their own sins in “doing good” by submitting to the divine will.
This all amounts to human sacrifice by even your own definition.
LikeLike
Dirk “Again, no refutation of my points.” Lol, you are best at refuting yourself
LikeLike
Duck, one day you claim Islam is completely “disconnected” from Christianity, because it does not rely on blood sacrifice for sin. The next day you come along and claim Islam practices “human sacrifice” to expiate sin. …
LikeLike
Duck is a troll pure and simple.
LikeLike
Burhanuddin1
You said;
Duck, one day you claim Islam is completely “disconnected” from Christianity, because it does not rely on blood sacrifice for sin. The next day you come along and claim Islam practices “human sacrifice” to expiate sin. …
I say;
This clearly shows how some Christians are desperate to accuse Islam at all cost, if even they lie or will get someone like Aayan Ali Hirsi, Nabeel Quraish, Walid Shoebat, Ergun Carner etc. to lie for them and they will willingly lie and some of these Christians knew and will support them.
Dirk is demonstrating the same habit here. How can he say killing a murderer to serve as a deterrent to prevent others from harming others in society so that there will be no or less harm to humans is a to expiate sin? How?
Dirk
You said;
Killing apostates prevents them from doing “mischief in the land”, and is an act of submission to the will of Allah – in other words, it is an expression of religious devotion to Allah, as well as means to keep others from sin.
I see that as an acknowledgement that killing apostates – and others deemed worthy of death in sharia – as a human sacrifice that averts Allah’s wrath and punishment, shows religious devotion and expiates sin.
The latter meets the demands of Islamic thought that maintains sin is offset by good works – thus, those who kill apostates are balancing their own sins in “doing good” by submitting to the divine will.
This all amounts to human sacrifice by even your own definition.
I said;
I will keep correcting you for the readers to know that we are not going to accept your Christian interpretation of your ideas to Islam.
1. The law to kill a murderer of someone who commits treason is not for God to benefit anything, neither it has it got something to do with sin or expiation of sin.
2. If the law allow a murderer to be killed it does not expiate the sin of man. The one who was killed will still be punished in the hereafter until like anyone else he SINCERELY REPENTS before his death.
3. Killing of a murderer is for human being to benefit and not God. So that there will be less criminals in society and it HAS NOTHING TO DO with expiation of sin.
4. Unlike Christianity which demands the sacrifice of a man by force and willingly by God and His Father, the God of the Quran does not want to kill a murderer, so He has instructed a series of investigation, forensics, witnesses and deliberations from jury and judges and the murderer must be found guilty before he can be killed.
5. Because the killing of the murderer is not willful and a force thing to do like in Christianity, the murderer can be set free if the family of the diseased forgives him(murderer).
So, Mr. Dirk and any Christian reading, from the above Muslims do not have a willing Father killing a willing Son or Himself and the willing Son killing himself by force to expiate sin.
The God of the Quran is not willing to kill any one by force to expiate sin and the killing of murderer or for treason is for the benefit of society and not God and has nothing to do with the expiation of sin because the one who was killed or the murderer has still got his sin intact to be punished if he did not sincerely repent before death.
Thanks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
==
That’s a flawed equation. While executing law offender, could prevent mischiefs and could be seen an act of of submission to authority but it is not an expression of religious devotion (its called ibādah عبادة in Islamic terminology). The act of execution has no righteous merit-able value (‘Amaluu Shooliha عملوا الصالحات) to anybody including the executioner(s). The executioner may even commit sin if he know that the execution is not just otherwise the orderer who will get the sin.
This does not work like trinitarian concept of sacrifice a unblemished or precious human to expiate the sin of other human. Trinitarian human sacrifice is just like human sacrifice has been practiced by pagans which was abhorred by true God. ie. appease gods and thus bring good fortune for those people who carry out the execution.
Also muslim scholars through centuries did not agree with various detail on penal law for blasphemy. The stronger opinion cite lean toward the way the Prophet behaved with the people who left Islam (like Hishâm and ‘Ayyash) or who converted to Christianity (such as Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh), it should be stated that one who changes her/his religion should not be killed.
According to all the theories of language elaborated by Muslim legal scholars, the Qur’anic proclamation that ‘There is no compulsion in religion lā ik’rāha fīddīni لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ The right path has been distinguished from error’ is as absolute and universal a statement as one finds. The truth had been made clear, and now, ‘Whoever wants, let him believe, and whoever wants, let him disbelieve, waqulil -ḥaqu min rabbikum famine shāa falyu’min waman shāa falyakfur ‘وَقُلِ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ فَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيُؤْمِن وَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيَكْفُرْ the Qur’an continues (2:256, 18:29). “, and hence the Qur’an granted religious freedom in clear term.
We can see your ridiculous attempt to equate penal law with human sacrifice as if it was normative for Islam, are taken from christian islamophobe sites. Human sacrifice is absolutely forbidden as a “grave error and sinful act” and an “ignorant, foolish act of those that have gone astray (Q 17:31; 6:140)
It is obvious that you are desperate to do this because human sacrifice is also forbidden in the Bible, the sacrifice of Jesus becomes very problematic in your end.
LikeLiked by 1 person