‘The repeated proclamation in the New Testament is that God raised Jesus from the dead. The resurrection is therefore not a proof that Jesus is God but rather that he has a God – the one God of all.’
Dr Shabir Ally
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Blogging Theology 
So I guess that settles it then. Jesus rose from the dead. The Qur’an is false. Not that I buy the obvious unitarian presupposition on Shabir’s part.
Happy New Year.
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Shabir’s accurate observation that,
‘The repeated proclamation in the New Testament is that God raised Jesus from the dead.’ (see Acts 2:24)
– is standard in New Testament scholarship. The Bible, obviously, does not teach Trinitarianism.
Shabir’s conclusion,
‘The resurrection is therefore not a proof that Jesus is God but rather that he has a God – the one God of all’
is therefore fully justified. It does not presuppose unitarianism. It make explicit what is implicit in the texts.
Sorry to begin your New Year with such a reality check!
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Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” -Jesus
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Did the historical Jesus say that?
John’s gospel is universally considered to be the least historical of the 4 gospels. Your quote is from the 4th gospel.
Acts 2:24 says God raised Jesus.
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It’s far more likely to be historical than anything the Quran attributes to Jesus. Anyway, Christians don’t dispute that “God raised Jesus”. They dispute your unitarian assumptions on the term.
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Paul, again the focus of my post was to demonstrate that the so-called proof that Jesus isn’t God works against your theology because it would mean that Islam is wrong for teaching that Jesus did not rise from the dead.
As to my comment regarding the unitarian presupposition, just because it says God raised Jesus from the dead does not automatically mean that the term God cannot be used as a title for any one of the 3 persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Only if you assume unitarianism would you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is not God just because the Father is.
It’s also interesting that you dismiss verses from John which agree with my position and undermine your own. You dismiss them because the gospel of John is as you say “the least historical”. Would you be willing to show us whether historians tend to favour the death of Jesus or deny it? Of course, it wouldn’t really be all that necessary, since your “proof” already endorses the resurrection as a historical fact, unless you want to tell us that you believe Jesus lied.
Finally, would you go on record to say that Muslims should not appeal to the gospel of John to prove prophecy of Muhammad’s coming?
Peace
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The quote is confirmed in Mark 14:58 and Matthew 27:40.
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RS, of course the Quran (as usually interpreted) corrects the mistaken belief that Jesus died on the cross, but that is not the subject of my post.
You may not realise this but Judaism was and remains monotheist and rejects any idea that the Messiah was/is Yahweh. The onus therefore is on you to prove from the Jewish Scriptures or any Jewish writing (from before the rise of Christianity) that Jews believed in Trinitarianism. So far historians have not found any such evidence.
For the record, only in John is Jesus portrayed as actually saying these words.
In the other gospels they are words attributed to Jesus on the lips of Jesus’ enemies. Mark says this is false testimony! So the gospels are confused and contradictory.
Mark 14:
‘Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58“We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’ ” 59Yet even then their testimony did not agree.’
Regarding John, I learnt well at the feet of your own Christian scholars that John is the least historical of the four in regard to the sayings and discourses that are put in Jesus’ mouth. Very probably he did not say them.
If this is news to you – just read any standard introduction to the New Testament.
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Early Judaism was by no means unitarian. Read Bauckham on this. Unitarianism as seen in rabbinical Judaism (not biblical Judaism) and Islam is a later development
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of course it was!
The idea that the prophets were closet Trinitarians or believed in many gods is laughable.
Deuteronomy 6: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
This is what Jews since the time of Moses believed. It is what Muslims (following Moses) believe.
You will not find the trinity preached anywhere in the Bible: “One God in three co-equal persons”. In the NT Jesus is never Yahweh. He is shown as praying to God (not to himself).
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I didn’t say anything about the trinity. I said they weren’t Unitarians. This is mainstream modern scholarship Paul- read Bauckham.
It is sloppy and lazy to continually assume Unitarian theology in the tanakh- such thinking is definitely not something we would see in 1st century Palestine
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Mark
Uni means 1 =God is One, Only and Alone. It is clearly from the Torah, to NT to the Quran.
Tri means 3 =God is Three persons in 1 being. It is no where in the Bible that God is 3 persons in One being. Not even in the NT.
So, obviously the 1st century Palestine assume One God who is the true Only and Alone God. Jesus himself said;
John 17:3
New International Version
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Mark, the only true God sent Jesus so Jesus is not God. It is in the 1st century Palestine scripture, why are you arguing the opposite for the 1st century Palestinias?
Thanks.
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Because they weren’t Unitarians. Read scholars on this if u don’t believe me
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so they were polytheists? Exactly how many gods did the Jews believe in? How many did, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc?
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Jesus did not believe he was God. This is mainstream modern scholarship.
This supports Unitarian theology, refutes Trinitarian theology.
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See that’s the problem. It’s either Unitarianism or polytheism in your mind, Paul . That is illogical and unnecessary. Like Christianity, early Judaism had a complex understanding of God’s being based on their interpretation of scripture and theology. Instead of disputing this, why not go read what the experts say?
@burhanuddin1 I think what you meant was “Jesus did not believe he was Muslim”. That is a much more accurate reflection of scholarship
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“experts”? They say all sorts of things. Let us see what the Jewish Scriptures say.
And you have failed to answer my question Mark.
Lets focus it down to what the Hebrew Prophets taught about God in the Jewish Scriptures. See for example Isaiah 40–55.
I say they were unitarian ie they proclaimed that God was One and only one – not 2 or 3 or 4. Not God with three personalities each co-equal with the others.
You amazingly disagree. So what did they really teach?
Come on – lay your cards on the table dude.
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Mark
Jesus himself cried Allaha, his Aramaic Language to call God. He did not mention 3 persons like the Church are mentioning today i.e. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is Unitarian because he said “to the only true God” excluding himself(Jesus) from the true God. Jesus is clearly a Unitarian.
Abraham, Moses, Solomon etc. never worship God the Son or God the Holy Spirit except Trinitarian Churches today;
Give us a proof Solomon or any prophet including Jesus worships God the Son.
I have a proof that, Jesus said pray to “Our Father” including him(Jesus) and said; “My God and your God” and fell down and prayed to our God like the God of the Muslims, Jews, Unitarian Christians and any one who believes God is one except the Trinitarians and Rastafarians who worships man.
Thanks.
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Allah never said he was ‘Tawheed ‘ either (the Koran only mentions achad), and yet you insist on calling everyone to it. That is later Islamic theology. Very strange double standards?!?
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Paul, the opposers of Jesus whose words are recorded in Mark 14:57 and Matthew 27:40 being wrong do not infer that John 2:19 wasn’t spoken by Jesus. The detail that the people got wrong was obviously not that Jesus was going to raise Himself from the dead, but that they accused Jesus of saying that he would destroy the temple.
Of course, as I mentioned before, it is not even necessary for me to go into details, since the “proof” you have made this post about, validates the resurrection which falsifies the Qur’an.
It’s interesting that you appeal to the belief of the Jews, the very Jews who rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah, charged Him with Blasphemy and ordered that He be put to death and tell me that I must follow them even though the Qur’an refers to them as liars.
Out of interest Paul, which theory do you subscribe to? Substitution or Swoon?
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Just for the record, the quran does not say that Allah has 99 names or attributes – they are not referred to as attributes or even names in the quran. Allah himself does not say that.
Terms like “name” and “attribute” have been made up by Islamic theologians and do not appear in the quran.
Paul
This strikes me as a dangerous challenge – the Jews only expected Jewish prophets, and they believe that their scriptures are pretty clear about that. No practising Jew believes that the Torah predicts, mentions, or even remotely refers to any prophet coming from Arabia or that such a man would be non-Jewish.
Unless you guys want to claim that the prophet was Jewish, you have to admit that your claims that he was a prophet of YAHWEH are not in any way, shape or form, supported by the Torah, nor are they accepted by Jews.
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@Irk
The Quran does mention Allah has beautiful names – See Surah Hashr (the last part of the chapter). And the number 99 is mentioned in Hadith (Bukhari):
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “Allah has ninety-nine names, i.e. one-hundred minus one, and whoever knows them will go to Paradise.”
——————
As for the Trinity idea not being in the OT it’s no problem at all for Muslims to argue using this point – it’s a potent and telling point. Keep in mind Christians believe in the Old Testament, thus if the original recipients of these books do not even have the same basic understanding of God then clearly there’s an issue. This is about the basic concept of God – the Jews have a Unitarian understanding while many Christians have a Trinitarian understanding.
Peace
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Yahya
I wish i could say “nice try” on that one, but it wasn’t even a nice try.
The number 99 is nowhere found in the quran – I think you know that. Allah never says he has 99 names or attributes. Nowhere does Allah say that the 99 names assigned to him by Islamic theology are the names that he claims for himself. He never says “one of my names is……..”
Also, there is a Jewish historian named Segal who in a book published around 25 years back, established that the ancient Jews believed in more than one seat of power in heaven, and this belief only went out of favour two centuries after the crucifixion.
And I think that you are well aware of the very compelling arguments that the concept of the Trinity appears in the Old Testament. Messianic Jew Dr. Michael Brown makes convincing arguments to this effect.
Plus, Islam is bound by the Old Testament also – Muslims claim that your prophet is mentioned by name in it, and that the Torah predicts his coming. None of this is true and none of it is believed by the Jews.
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Mark – “Allah never said he was ‘Tawheed ‘ either (the Koran only mentions ached)”
Lol. Mark, you seem to be stretched too thin. Really, do your homework, before you bite off more than you can chew.
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Mark
You said;
See that’s the problem. It’s either Unitarianism or polytheism in your mind, Paul . That is illogical and unnecessary. Like Christianity, early Judaism had a complex understanding of God’s being based on their interpretation of scripture and theology. Instead of disputing this, why not go read what the experts say?
I say;
I do not think you are right to say early Judaism had a complex understanding of God’s being based on their interpretation of scripture. Mark, I do not think you have evidence for this. Every religion has few individuals who may think of God being a man or having having lesser gods in addition to him.
Today, there are a sect of Islam who thinks our prophets nephew, Ali is God and Rastafarians today can quote scripture and prove Emperor Haile Selaissie is indeed part of the Trinity.
Hindus believe Sai Baba, a man is an incarnated God and it can not be found in the Hindu scripture. Yes, the original message from God which is clearly in the scriptures that He is only one, and alone and NOTHING ELSE and NO ONE ELSE is always adulterated with a passage of time as satan will continue to influence and mislead people to start adding other gods and multiple persons to one and only God.
Jews not Judaism, but Jews obviously like other humans begins to worship a golden calf when Moses was away to for his spiritual encounter with God. When Moses returned he was angry with his people the Jews(not Judaism).
If you find a single Jew writing about the plurarity of God or Michael Brown arguing for the plurarity of God which is not in the Old Testament, it does not mean it is Judaism like people worshiping Ali is not Islamic.
You can have crazy ideas in every religion and one must stick to the scripture especially about oneness of God which is clear and unequivocal.
Judaism clearly teaches about one and only God who is alone and Most Jews believe about that. Do not confuse Judaism of Most Jews with one or two Jews who wrote some crazy things that is not in the scripture.
Proof
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
Mark, one thing you must ask yourself and convert to unitarianism, even if it is the Christian unitarianism,if you hate Islam, then that would be fine for you instead of remaining in Trinitarianism which is clearly not known to the early receivers of revelations.
The Quran said, people did receive revelations earlier. At least we and the Jews, about 99.9 percent of them believe in One God Only who is alone. That is the key. Jews will never ever say they worship Jesus Christ, over their dead bodies. Trinitarians failed miserably.
Thanks.
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Irk
You said;
Also, there is a Jewish historian named Segal who in a book published around 25 years back, established that the ancient Jews believed in more than one seat of power in heaven, and this belief only went out of favour two centuries after the crucifixion.
And I think that you are well aware of the very compelling arguments that the concept of the Trinity appears in the Old Testament. Messianic Jew Dr. Michael Brown makes convincing arguments to this effect.
I say;
For God’s sake, do not base your life on this unknown author with his unknown materials and history. Just because he is a Jew, does not qualify him to write something which is not known to people. No wonder many people including Christians did not read his book.
It is just like Nabeels book, which has beliefs that was not shared by his former Ahmadiyya Movement, but he says “My former religion”. You do not base your salvation on a single man’s book that contradicts his former or current religion of millions of followers and contradicts most scriptures.
Thanks.
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Irk
Lets be serious. Any one can call God with any decent name, even if he can count those names to 1000, 88, 77, 600, etc. and there is nothing wrong about that. Allah or God will not want to be called with bad names but any good and decent names will be ok. for God.
In the Quran, all the 99 names were referred to God, so Muslims counted them and are using them as 99 beautiful names based on God’s characteristics and attributes.
One name or attribute is not a being but just His characteristics, name or attribute He was referred to in the Quran.
It is different to a person, because each God name in the Quran is not a person or a being by itself so cannot be God itself. Just like Paul Williams cannot be the owner of this blog but his name, Many people are called Paul Williams, just google it. It is just a name. He can change his name from Paul Williams and still be the same.
Allah does not change his characteristics but some times He acts in the opposite when it comes to Satan because Allah does not love oppressors. You see, “love” and “does not love” because we cause the “does not love” because Allah always loves.
Now to TAUHEED
Tawhed is an Arabic word which means “one”. Instead of using wahid or Ahad which are also one, scholars prefer to use Tauheed as one to teach people about oneness of God.
Muslims have to believe God is One but not “Tauheed”. Many Muslims never heard the word Tauheed but they believe “God is One and Mohammed is His prophet” which ironically means “Tauheed” in Arabic dictionary.
Muslims do not worship “Tauheed” and Muslim God is not “Tauheed” but “One God” which is the same. I worship Allah but I do not worship “Tauheed”.
On the Christian Trinitarians, Trinity is their God because they cannot say they do not worship “Trinity” but they worship a God who is alone.
Muslims and Jews will say our God is alone and no other person or persons and He is One but Trinitarians cannot say they worship one and alone God who is only and no other persons but one.
So, Trinity cannot be compared with Tauheed which many Muslims do not hear but instead worship one God and Mohammed is the prophet.
Trinitarian cannot believe in one God without 3 persons and the 3 persons is the problem.
I worship Allah alone and Mohammed is His prophet and not Tauheed.
Do you worship God alone without Trinity? If you do not worship Trinty then you are a Muslim or Unitarian Christians because they do not worship Trinity.
If God is person, then I worship only 1 person of God who is only one divine being, not 3 persons who are 3 divine beings.
Thanks.
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Intellect
The authors of the quran are unknown, as are much of the historical claims it makes…….
thinkverywell
There is something wrong with that – you seem to be saying that we can make things up about God. I don’t agree with that.
Allah never says that my names is such and such, neither does he say that my attributes are such and such. Even more problematic for Islam, he never says that he cannot enter his own creation – that is a made up notion. Allah never says that he cannot enter into creation personally.
The Trinity on the other hand is clearly conceptualized – Jesus claims powers and qualities only associated with God, He states that the Holy Spirit is God’s spirit, He differentiates between the personages of the Triune God, yet He claims that they are One.
And there you have a problem – is the tawhid true without Mohammed being the prophet? Can you worship one God without acknowledging any prophets at all?
Sorry, but that is just incoherent. Allah’s names are his attributes – although nowhere does he say that these are his attributes – but the name Paul Williams is not an attribute. You have just completely argued for atheism because on the Muslim view you absolutely cannot know that anything that Allah says reflects who he is – you cannot even know if he is Allah.
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In the name of Allah Most Beneficent Most Merciful
Mark,
In semitic language all words are derived from consonantal root or stem or Istytiqaq اِشْتِقاق in Arabic.
The word Tauheed (توحيد ) [sometime transliterated Tawheed, Tauhid etc] is from the Arabic stem word
which means to make one, to unify.
Thus to say ( يوحّد الله ) yuwahidu-llah, means to make Allah one in belief, in faith and in worship. It is also called Tauheed-Allah ( توحيد الله ) the oneness of Allah.
it is very much in the Qur’an:
Tauheed is analogous to the monotheistic concept of God in the Tanakh as declared in the Shema but in contrast to the “One God in Three Persons” of trintarianism.
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Eric
Allah never says that he is not three persons – he never used those words a single time.
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With the name of Allah
Allah never says that he cannot enter into creation personally.
I agree but what do you mean by “God enter into creation”.
Muslims believe God “enter” into creation as He Wills even in one Qur’anic verse it says”
If you think that God enter into Jesus so that God adopted him as special person, this does not make him God. and I dont think this view is in line with trinitarianism
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With the name of Allah
Irk,
The Quran is clear.
it says لَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ lā taqūlū thalāthatun
Do not say Three!
Actually it is agains ALL sorts of associating partners with God using “three”!
It would not matter if the Trinity was composed of any permutations and combinations of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or the Mary or even Martin Luther King or Calvin or Pope………… It would still be considered as associating partners with Allah. For the Quran 4:171, For Allah is One God, is enough to refute that God is THREE persons, THREE Godhead or any such bizarre argument.
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Irk
You said;
For God’s sake, do not base your life on this unknown author with his unknown materials and history.
The authors of the quran are unknown, as are much of the historical claims it makes…….
I say;
The Quran claimed Allah-The Almighty God of every thing is the Author.
Proofs
QURAN: Chapter 4, Verse 82: “Do they not consider (ponder) on the Quran? If it had been from anyone except Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepency (contradictions).”
[Quran 15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the Quran, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.
[Quran 56:77-80] This is an honorable Quran. In a protected book. None can grasp it except the sincere. A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
Mr. Irk, any book needs the Author to provide his full identity to authenticate it and the Quran has passed the test. You may not believe it but at least believe that the Author is known as the creator of all things because He did clearly authenticate the Quran in various verses.
NT has no one claiming to be the author and no Full names, place of birth, towns, language spoken, relationship with Jesus etc. except according to but you believed it is from God.
So, the Author of the Quran is known but you do not believe that. We have discussed the compilaton of the Quran here over and over and I will not go over it again for now.
Nobody knows this author Segal, except you alone. And you want to base your life on him(Unknown Segal)
///////
Also, there is a Jewish historian named Segal who in a book published around 25 years back, established that the ancient Jews believed in more than one seat of power in heaven, and this belief only went out of favour two centuries after the crucifixion.
///////
Thanks
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Eric agree but what do you mean by “God enter into creation”.I mean that Allah never says that he cannot incarnate as human flesh within creation, he never says that he is not three persons in a trinity, and he never says that he cannot exist simultaneously as incarnate, Father, and Holy Spirit. In fact, Allah never even comes close to saying anything about the Holy Spirit’s place in the Trinity. He never – anywhere – denies being one God consisting of three persons.
Those limitations have been placed on him solely by Muslim theologians. The quran itself and the very word of Allah never explicitly states that he is not Triune, he is not multi-personal, nor that he is not capable of becoming flesh.
The quran cannot possibly form the basis for any rational rejection of the Triune nature of God, or the incarnation.
Allah just does not say it.
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Eric
Christians don’t say three. We say trinity, we don’t believe in three we believe in one because we believe that God can be in three different states simultaneously. He’s just omnipotent that way! We don’t limit Him. We cannot limit Him.
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Irk
You said;
Eric
Allah never says that he is not three persons – he never used those words a single time.
I say;
Allah never says that He is not three persons with Emperor Haile Selassie I, the conqueror of the lion of the tribes of Judah, Jah Rastafari.
If you insist your Trinity is true, then the Rastafarians Trinity with Haile Selaissie is also a true God because Allah never mentions Emperor Haile Selaissie.
Thanks.
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Eric
And again, I have to emphasize that Allah never says anything that remotely denies the claims made by Christianity.
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Irk
You said;
Eric
Do not say Three!
Actually it is agains ALL sorts of associating partners with God using “three”!
Christians don’t say three. We say trinity, we don’t believe in three we believe in one because we believe that God can be in three different states simultaneously. He’s just omnipotent that way! We don’t limit Him. We cannot limit Him.
I say;
Trinitarians do say “Three persons 1 God” and Trinitarians God is not God without “Three” but God according to the Bible is One, Only and Alone and nothing else.
So do not say “three” say “one” only and alone and nothing else according to the Quran referring you back to the Bible.
Thanks.
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Intellect
Thanks, interesting points.
thinkvery well
If you wish to believe that fine, I don’t because I have scriptures that are supported historically, logically and theologically. Allah never says that he is not a teapot floating invisibly around the universe. I really see this as an admission that Allah does not claim that he is not a trinity, nor that he cannot exist simultaneously in three different states.
Allah also never – ever – says that he cannot, or did not incarnate into creation.
The quran just does not support the Islamic position about the Trinity or about Islamic theology’s conceptualization of Allah.
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Irk
You said;
Eric agree but what do you mean by “God enter into creation”.I mean that Allah never says that he cannot incarnate as human flesh within creation, he never says that he is not three persons in a trinity, and he never says that he cannot exist simultaneously as incarnate, Father, and Holy Spirit. In fact, Allah never even comes close to saying anything about the Holy Spirit’s place in the Trinity. He never – anywhere – denies being one God consisting of three persons.
I say;
Allah never sas that he cannot incarnate into Sai Baba who is an incarnated Hindu God and Emperor Haile Selaissie and many incarnated Gods all over the world from the Pagan Greeks and Roman incarnated Gods till today.
They all have their scripture like you. If you are stubborn like them to continue worshiping God-Man like them and ignore the warning to not say;
Three persons one God which is not in your scripture and not in any scripture and stick to what the Bible said that God is one, only and alone with no “three” at all in the Bible for God but “one”, only, alone and nothing else, then in the day of judgement you have yourself to be blamed.
Thanks.
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Intellect
Surely you can do better than that? If Allah has no answer to Hindu polytheism, that is not Christianity’s problem.
The quran refers specifically to Christians, and Islam holds that Allah rejects specific Christian beliefs, yet Allah never – ever – states that he did not enter creation and incarnate into human flesh, he never states that he cannot exist in three states simultaneously, he never says that he is not three persons, and he never makes any reference to the Holy Spirit in connection to the trinity. He never says that he is not triune.
In short, Allah’s words in the quran do not support the Muslim beliefs about Christianity – Allah simply does not address them, which means that Islam’s theological position on the trinity and the incarnation are man-made traditions and in no way reflective of the word of Allah.
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Irk “Christians don’t say three. We say trinity, we don’t believe in three we believe in one because we believe that God can be in three different states simultaneously.”
“Christians” have been saying all sorts of stuff and still are. To deny some of them don’t say “three” in some sense is just plain stupid.
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Irk “Even more problematic for Islam, he never says that he cannot enter his own creation – that is a made up notion” Lol.
I can’t imagine “God entering his own creation” or “God being in three different states simultaneously” is compatible with orthodox Trinitarianism. To me that’s just made up waffle from wannabe part-time missionaries.
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Burhanuddin1
I disagree, that is exactly what Trinitarianism says is God’s nature. I think you do not know the orthodox position.
Surely you see the problem in the Muslim rejection of Christian belief and the lack of any words from Allah that explicitly and unequivocally deny his triune nature, deny that he entered creation through the incarnation, deny that can exist in three states simultaneously, and make no mention of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity.
Allah never denies any of the doctrines that Christians believe.
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“I disagree, that is exactly what Trinitarianism says is God’s nature.” Lool.
God’s nature – ousia – never “entered into creation” (whatever that means)… In triniarianism the second PERSON (hypostasis) assumes a human nature. Just do your homework before waffling absurd stuff about what Allah subhana wa taala has revealed clearly and explicitly.
God refutes ALL wrong human philosophical concepts involving the concept “three”, including your own heretical views of the imagined “Trinity”.
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Burhanuddin1
Sorry but you are merely making a mountain out of a semantic molehill.
The real problem – and it is a problem that no Muslim I have ever put the question to is able to answer – is why Allah never denied the Triune nature of his being, why he never denied the incarnation, never denied that he exists in three states simultaneously, and why he never had anything to say about the Holy Spirit.
The quran simply does not support the Muslim view on the Trinity – Allah would have explicitly and unequivocally used words to this effect. He never does, so there is no reason to reject it.
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Irk
You said;
Surely you can do better than that? If Allah has no answer to Hindu polytheism, that is not Christianity’s problem.
The quran refers specifically to Christians, and Islam holds that Allah rejects specific Christian beliefs, yet Allah never – ever – states that he did not enter creation and incarnate into human flesh, he never states that he cannot exist in three states simultaneously, he never says that he is not three persons, and he never makes any reference to the Holy Spirit in connection to the trinity. He never says that he is not triune.
In short, Allah’s words in the quran do not support the Muslim beliefs about Christianity – Allah simply does not address them, which means that Islam’s theological position on the trinity and the incarnation are man-made traditions and in no way reflective of the word of Allah.
I say;
Allah has answer to all problems, that is why He did not define the incarnation to only Christians but He said God is One and there is nothing like God. Any sensible person will know that if He(God) incarnates, to human then He is no more “nothing like Him”.
God said He is One, Only and Alone and nothing else. Do not say “three” because Christians say God is three in 1 including Rastafarians who are also Christians who use Bible to say God is three persons in One including Haile Selaissie as part of Trinity which other Trinitarians like you will not include.
The Mormons have their Trinity and prophet as well.
Because God is divine and has divine intelligence, He insists on not saying 3 for Him but One, Only and Alone and nothing else.
If He had used the Trinity formula that you want which is not in the Bible by the way, Ratafarians and Mormons and other Trinitarians with different formula would have been arguing like you are doing here that it did not say anything about them.
But the divine intelligence of God is to great for all of you and He has put all of you Trinitarians in the same basket and that shows God answers everyone. It is opposite to what you have said, because God answered every Trinitarians by saying to not say 3 about Him because the 3 is not in the Bible about Him but One, Only Alone and nothing else and no one else is there in the Bible about Him(God).
So it is perfectly correct for you do not say 3 for being God because it is not in the Bible but say One, Only Alone God but nothing else and no one else.
All is in the Bible except 3 persons which is not in the Bible and Allah say do not say 3 for Him and He is warning you to desist and it is better for you.
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“Sorry but you are merely making a mountain out of a semantic molehill.”
Excuse me, a “triune God” who’s “ousia” “enters into creation” (please supply any trinitarian creedal statement that supports your position) is NOT the same “triune God” who’s “Second Hypostasis assumes a human nature”.
There is only ONE GOD. For you: only one triune God. How can you be sure to worship the right one? You are in grave danger of idolatry.
God refutes ALL wrong human philosophical concepts involving the concept “three”, including your own heretical views of the imagined “Trinity”.
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Irk “The real problem – and it is a problem that no Muslim I have ever put the question to is able to answer – is why Allah never denied the Triune nature of his being, …”
Excuse me, but what are you talking about? “… the Triune nature of his being …”
The triune nature of God’s nature? The triune ousia of God’s ousia? Seriously, you seem extremely confused.
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Burhanuddin1, thinkverywell, and others….
Look guys, all I’m asking for is are passages from the quran where Allah says “I am not triune”. We know he is One – Christians say that and so we agree. We also say that he is triune, he exists in three states simultaneously, and he entered creation in the incarnation.
Please show me where Allah says that he is not triune, show me where Allah says he cannot exist in three states, show me where Allah says he cannot or did not enter creation via the incarnation and show me where he mentions the Holy Spirit.
It should be easy for you guys – all you have to do is look at your own scriptures which you obviously and admirably know intimately well, and copy paste the parts where Allah says these things on your next post.
I still cannot see how the Islamic theological position on the Triune nature of God, the incarnation, the Holy Spirit, and God’s ability to enter into his creation are in any way, shape or form supported by quranic scripture. Allah does not agree with Muslims on this – if he did, he would have said so. But he does not.
Mock me and my beliefs as much as you want – Jesus says that to follow him is to suffer – but please show me where Allah agrees with you.
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It is ironic to see that Burhanudin1 (a muslim) have a better understanding of trinitarianism than Irk (a trinitarian) .
By all definition Irk position on trinity is heretical
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With the name of Allah
//Irk: “Please show me where Allah says that he is not triune”//
What more clearer than
//Irk:”Christians don’t say three”//
The Athanasian Creed:
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thinkverywell
The question of what Allah says in the quran has nothing to do with what is in the bible. Christians believe in the trinity – whether you agree that it is biblically supported is irrelevant to this discussion.
What is relevant is that Allah supposedly rejects the trinity, the incarnation, and the triune nature of God, yet nowhere does he actually say any of this. That is not a problem for the bible – it is a problem for the quran and those who assert that Allah rejects things that he never specifically does.
Eric
Okay fine, I’m a heretic.
Now where in the quran does Allah reject his incarnation, the triune nature of God, where does he say that he cannot exist in three states simultaneously, where does he say that he could not and did not enter into creation via an incarnation, and where does he say anything about the Holy Spirit as being part of the Trinity.
You guys should be jumping up and down – I’m asking you to preach your scriptures here, you have a chance to finally and unequivocally demonstrate where in the quran Allah says the things that explicitly show he rejected the Christian doctrine of the trinity.
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When you say Allah enter creation via incarnation, it mean at some point in time before the entrance, the creation is not and never divine then after the incarnation it become divine, which is also problematic since after that there are two divine entities.
Now what stopping Allah to enter only one creation?
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Eric
No Christian denies that there are three persons – the problem is that Allah never says “three persons”, and he specifically never says that he is not triune. Nor does he ever say that he cannot, could not, or did not enter creation via the incarnation. And he never mentions the Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity. This is a huge problem for you guys.
Allah never says that his nature is not composed of three persons – saying “three” is vague and in no way should be taken as a certainty that it means triunity.
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Eric
With all due respect, this question is irrelevant. Implicit to the concept of the Trinity is that God can exist in more than one state simultaneously. You have to show me where in the quran Allah says this is not possible or that he did not do or cannot do it.
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Irk
You said;
Burhanuddin1, thinkverywell, and others….
Look guys, all I’m asking for is are passages from the quran where Allah says “I am not triune”. We know he is One – Christians say that and so we agree. We also say that he is triune, he exists in three states simultaneously, and he entered creation in the incarnation.
Please show me where Allah says that he is not triune, show me where Allah says he cannot exist in three states, show me where Allah says he cannot or did not enter creation via the incarnation and show me where he mentions the Holy Spirit.
I say;
Triune, Trinity, 3 persons 1 God, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, incarnation, God entered in his creations, co-equal, Hypo whatever union, etc. are all not in the Bible but man made and you keep troubling us to find it in the Quran.
Quran is here not to correct only Trinitarians and spend all its time wasting in their Jargons and Characters like a movie starring Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Swazzeneger, Denzel Washington etc. but Quran is here to correct all mankind(human beings) and has more to cover.
It simply refutes all types of idol, human, pagan, polytheists, man, woman and all types of illegal worships in a divine intelligence. To blindly close one’s eyes and ears to that is to put that persons in peril.
Mary and Jesus as human beings are in the Bible and God used them to disqualify any human worship or any incarnation. The Holy Spirit is known by only Trinitarians and the Quran has no time for the Holy Spirit because it is the Trinitarians who knows how it enters into their body.
The Quran does not have to describe God the Holy Spirit which no one knows. A unitarian Christian arguing with Dr. White who do not believe in the Quran addressed Jesus and Yahweh but refused to address the Holy Spirit and said he does not know the Holy Spirit and does not who the Holy Spirit is.
I thought how can this Christian became inline with the Quran by ignoring the Holy Spirit claiming he does not know who the Holy Spirit is.
We do not know the HS and who he is except the Trinitarians so we do not have time to waste on that including God who also do not have time to waste of Holy Spirit that no one knows except the Trinitarians.
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thinkverywell
And in order to that with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, Allah has to state specifically that he is not the things that Christian doctrine says he is. Unfortunately for you guys, he never does that.
I think that you are understating the lengths that the quran goes to in its address to Christianity – Jesus is mentioned around 25 times and Mohammed only around 4 or 5 times. Clearly, Allah had a lot to say about Christianity.
The problem is, he never actually rejected the doctrine of the Trinity, he never said he was not Triune, he never said he did not or could not enter creation via the incarnation, and he never says that he cannot exist in more than one state at the same time.
These are all Muslim objections, but unfortunately for you, Allah does not support your theology with his statements in the quran.
And if he rejects the Trinity, he should – no must – mention the Holy Spirit and state explicitly why this doctrine is not true.
Clearly, the there is no evidence from the quran that Allah rejected any of these aforementioned Christian beliefs.
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To all
It is clear that nowhere in the quran does Allah makes any specific reference to any of the beliefs I have mentioned. He does not say that he is not triune, he does not say that did not or cannot enter creation via the incarnation, he does not say that he cannot exist in three states simultaneously, and he did not reject the concept of the Holy Spirit being part of the Trinity.
The word of Allah gives us absolutely no reason to reject the trinity.
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It’s my understanding that Allah in fact does enter his creation every night when it is the last third part of the night, he descends to the nearest heaven to see who will invoke Him to prayer. Of course, it’s the last third part of the night always somewhere on the earth, which would seem to suggest he is in a constant state of descension, but my main point is that Allah does not seem to be foreign to the idea of entering creation.
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Royal Son
I think that the Muslim view is complicated – Allah can not be contained (and therefore cannot enter creation because it would mean moving from infinite to finite), but he is able somehow to “be” in creation.
The result is that he can be close to our jugular, but that he does not – or cannot(?) – actually interact personally with us. I see it as very esoteric and somewhat contradictory.
But Islam does reject the view that God can or did enter creation via the incarnation. The problem is, Allah never explicitly says this.
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“Now where in the quran does Allah reject his incarnation, the triune nature of God, where does he say that he cannot exist in three states simultaneously, where does he say that he could not and did not enter into creation via an incarnation, and where does he say anything about the Holy Spirit as being part of the Trinity.”
Hey Irk
I am by no means an expert on the Quran so I hope you might bear with me.
The Qur’an I think does reject the idea of the Incarnation in Surah 112:3, where it reads:
“He neither begets nor is born,” (Sahih International)
According to Christian belief the second person of the Trinity took on a human nature and was ‘born’. This verse directly challenges this assumption (and any other faith which has this belief).
As others have pointed out above, The Qur’an does reject the Trinity with its insistence “do not say three…”
Simply because it doesn’t quote the entire Athanasian Creed doesn’t mean that it isn’t talking about the Trinity unless you have reason to believe it is referring to some other faith at the time which “said three…”
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With the name of Allah
//Irk:”No Christian denies that there are three persons – the problem is that Allah never says “three persons”//
Now you admit that christian says “three” about God. …Good, now we are going somewhere.
This is what the Qur’an prohibited : do not make association with regard to God. “Do not say three” this includes ALL things associated with being “three” not in persons not in “mode” not in “states” etc.
Far from being vague. the Qur’an presented in very clear term.
God is not Three, God is One this includes God’s Essence, God’s Names and Attributes, God’s Actions.
Because the Qur’an said:
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Patrice
I hope I haven’t given the impression that I am an expert on the quran – I absolutely am not.
I don’t view that Surah as specific to Christianity or the Trinity mainly because I do not see any reason to think that the use of the word “beget” reflects the Christian use of the word.
I think that Islam charges Christianity with claiming that God took a consort or partner and procreated, when in fact, the Christian view of the incarnation is extremely similar to the one described in the quran.
Surah 112:3, then, speaks to a view that may or may not relate specifically to Christianity, and if it is trying to make a statement about the Christian doctrines it is unclear whether it denies the Christian narrative of the incarnation or if it is saying that God does not procreate. If the latter is the case, then it does not address the Christian view at all.
The quran need not quote the Athanasian Creed, but it should state explicitly that Allah is none of the things that the Trinity says he is. And I don’t think it does so at all.
Saying “three” is vague – if Allah meant “three persons” then why didn’t he say that? If he meant the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then why didn’t he say that? The question is three what? The text seems unclear.
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
RS://It’s my understanding that Allah in fact does enter his creation every night when it is the last third part of the night, he descends to the nearest heaven to see who will invoke Him to prayer.//
The descent of the Lord is unlike any of the actions imaginable to human and this has to do with His will and wisdom, because there is nothing like unto Him.
Also. The descent of His command and mercy is not restricted to this part of the night, rather His command and mercy descend all the time. The hadith was to be understood that God’s mercy can reach those who invoke Him in prayer.
No muslims believe on that particular hadith that Allah actually enter his creation in the last third part of the night.. descending like an angelic beings ..like a holy ghost … Islamic aqeedah prevent us to believe this kind of understanding like trinitarianism which allow impersonalisation God.
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Eric
Okay, but whee in the quran does Allah use the words “three persons”? Where does he say that he cannot exist in three states simultaneously? Where does he say he cannot or did not enter creation in the incarnation?
Fine. Can you tell me anything in creation that can exist in three states simultaneously, is able to move in and out of creation and time but is not limited by it, and what in creation exists as one being with three persons?
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With the name of Allah
//Irk:Okay, but whee in the quran does Allah use the words “three persons”//
let me say it again:
“Do not say three” this includes ALL things associated with being “three” not in persons not in “mode” not in “states” etc.
ALL
adjective \ˈȯl\
: the whole, entire, total amount, quantity, or extent of
: every member or part of
: the whole number or sum of
“There is NOTHING LIKE unto Him”
//Irk:”Fine. Can you tell me anything in creation that can exist in three states simultaneously, is able to move in and out of creation and time but is not limited by it, and what in creation exists as one being with three persons?”//
Oh yes, one I can think is Vishnu.
in Islam NOTHING LIKE unto God does not include absurd or unGodly things.
God only does Godly things
Btw, I am interested by your definition that God can switch modes (enter creation in and out) so this implies some sort of multiple and temporal manifestations of God.
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God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. (Romans 10:9-10)
Jesus the Son also raised Himself from the dead. (John 10:18; 2:19-22)
The Holy Spirit was involved in raising Jesus from the dead. (1 Peter 3:18; 1 Timothy 3:16; Romans 8:11)
There is only one by nature/substance/essence.
But also The Trinity is One God in three divine persons, each involved in the resurrection.
Just as all three persons of the Trinity are involved in salvation – Ephesians 1:3-14; 1 Peter 1:1-3.
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There is only one God by nature / substance/essence.
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Eric
Again, the text does not support your view that it is all encompassing. The text is not specific to the Christian view of the personages of God in the least and there is no reason to think that Allah is rejecting triunity at all in that passage. The text in no way even remotely implies that “all” things three are being addressed at all.
So you are saying that you believe that Vishnu exists and Allah created him or her?
I’m not sure what you are talking about here. The trinitarian view is that God exists simultaneously in three states not that he shifts modes.
Look, I think that we are all going to have to just agree to disagree here. In my view the quran makes absolutely no definite statements to the effect that Allah denies triunity, he certainly is silent on denying that he could not or did not enter creation via the incarnation, he makes no mention of his existing in three states simultaneously, and he has absolutely no opinion on the Holy Spirit.
Again, the quran does not support the Islamic theological position on these things.
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
//Irk: “Again, the text does not support your view that it is all encompassing. The text is not specific to the Christian view of the personages of God in the least and there is no reason to think that Allah is rejecting triunity at all in that passage.”//
Oh yes, the text is specific to christian trinitarianism.
//Irk:”Fine. Can you tell me anything in creation that can exist in three states simultaneously, is able to move in and out of creation and time but is not limited by it, and what in creation exists as one being with three persons?”//
//Irk:”So you are saying that you believe that Vishnu exists and Allah created him or her?”//
No, I am saying that your version of theology fit better to Hinduism.
In Islam, No comparability of God is strictly monotheistic context. We do not allow God to do absurd things such as:
Can God creates rock so heavy that God can not lift it?..
Our theology based in the Qur’an and hadiths only allows to describe God in such Godly manner.
//Irk:” I’m not sure what you are talking about here. The trinitarian view is that God exists simultaneously in three states not that he shifts modes.”//
You said it not me, scroll up.
I quote what you said again and emphasis:
//Irk:”Fine. Can you tell me anything in creation that can exist in three states simultaneously, is able to move in and out of creation and time but is not limited by it, and what in creation exists as one being with three persons?”//
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Eric
That is quite a long reach. Again, no denial of God’s triune nature, no mention of the personages of God, or the Holy Spirit. In some translations the qualifier “only” (a messenger) is not even inserted so the passage is vague and in no way is a convincing argument that Allah denies the triune personages.
There is also a point to be made here that the quran has no historical context for its claims about the person it calls Jesus. It claims that Jesus’ mother was the sister of Aaron and names Aaron and Moses’ father Imran as her father. So historically, it puts this version of Jesus way back hundreds of years. So there is even reason to wonder if the quran is talking about the same guy.
Or, maybe there was a guy in Arabia named Jesus whose mother was called Mary, whose brother was Aaron and whose father was a guy called Imran – but who is not the same person in the New Testament. The quran provides no credible historical information about Jesus whatsoever.
Really? Hinduism has sin expiation, crucifixion, bodily resurrection, One Triune God, Jews as the Chosen People, belief in all the prophets, the Torah as revelation…..?
Your theology concerning the Triune God, the incarnation, God existing in three states simultaneously and the Holy Spirit is only extremely vaguely supported in the quran at best and mostly not supported at all.
Again, nowhere does Allah come even remotely close to denying any of it.
Modalism –
I never said God shifts modes at all or even implied it. I think you must have misunderstood my point.
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Irk
You said’
I never said God shifts modes at all or even implied it. I think you must have misunderstood my point.
I say;
Is Jesus not God? Jesus is God according to you and you worship him. Now see how your God shifts modes
a. Jesus said he does not know the hour but only the Father knows. Christians say it is the human part that did not know the hour. i.e. shift of mode to human part.
b. The same Jesus said; “Your sins are forgiven”. Christians say, it is only God who can forgive sin but man or human cannot forgive sin. i.e. shift of mode to Jesus divine part to forgive sin.
c. Jesus raised the dead all on earth and Christians say because of that he is God. i.e. shifting mode to a divine part.
The list goes on and on. God entering His creation and not entering it is switching mode. God becoming man is switching modes. God being One being and 3 persons is switching modes because every person is a being and a person cannot be a person without being a being.
So Christian God as 1 being 3 persons i.e. 3 beings is switching modes. switching from 1 being to 3 persons(beings).
Unless God tells us that a person is not a being, then that God lied who said He is 1 being 3 persons(being).
With regards to your stubborn arguments
You are not the only Trinitarian who says 3 persons are God but Rastafarians are also Trinitarian Christians who use Emperor Haile Selassie as part of the 3 in Trinity and the Mormons have their prophet and their Trinity as 3 persons one God.
So, Allah is addressing all of you and His divine intelligence will not limit Trinity to your Trinity alone. All of you cannot have God without 3 and that is the problem and it is simple do not say 3.
If you all stop saying 3 but stick to the “one“ God alone then case will be closed. You said you do not limit God Mr. Irk, but you limit God to 3 persons. Why not 4,5,6………Persons? You did limit God to 3 persons and that is blaspheme.
That is what the Author of the Quran who is divine is telling you, in that the 3 is the problem and do not say 3 because you limited God to 3.
You limited God to 3
You limited God to 3
You limited God to 3
It is a big sin because 3 persons is not in the Bible but instead God is One, Only and Alone is all over in the Bible No single 3 persons in the Bible but the Quran has corrected all mankind who associated three things to God and Yes, do not say 3, desist, it is better for you.
Jesus never said “I am God. worship me”
Why are you worshiping him(Jesus).
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Irk
I forgot to add. When we follow your arguments those worshiping four persons, five person, 6 persons etc. according to their scripture will also say God did not count the number of persons they worship and therefore God did not warn them the number of persons they do worship.
Most idol worshipers, if they follow your logic can worship their persons and say God did not mention the names of the persons they worship.
Do you think you are the only one worshiping persons? No, there are millions of people worshiping persons. Some worship 5, 6,7, 8……………..
Common sense will tell anyone that this verse from the Bible has condemned all of them
Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before me.
but it never mentions any name of a particular persons or idol they worship. Those worshiping persons, 3 persons, 6 persons etc. will be stubborn and say the above did not warn them from worshiping their persons because it did not mention their names.
Any on knows worshiping any persons apart from one God of Abraham is against the Exodus 20:3
Thanks.
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Irk
You are worshiping persons and insists you can worship persons. Rastafarians and others also worship persons according to their scripture. Would you say they worship God?
Thanks.
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Intellect
Theonly argument of mine that matters is that nowhere in the quran does Allah explicitly and unequivocally say that he is not triune, he does not say that he cannot or did not enter creation via the incarnation, he never says that he cannot exist in three state simultaneously, and he seems completely ignorant of the Holy Spirit.
These arguments have not been answered because Allah says none of these things and so the quran does not support Islamic theology on the subject of the Triune nature of God.
The problem is that Islam claims to correct Christian and Jewish beliefs, yet Allah makes no statements that actually explicitly address the specific beliefs of either of these groups. In fact, regarding the Jews, Allah says that they believe that Ezra is the son of Allah – they don’t.
How can Islam be correcting anything that came before when Allah never denies any of the claims made by Christians about God’s nature, and Allah gets it wrong about Jewish belief?
thinkverywell
I don’t know anything about Rastafarians or their beliefs, but can you show me where in the quran Allah talks about them? And where does he explicitly deny being triune? Where does he say that he never entered creation via the incarnation?
Sorry I have to keep reiterating the same question over and over, but none of you guys have even tried to answer them. All you have to do is show me where Allah denies any of these things.
The problem is you cannot because he did not.
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
//Irk:”That is quite a long reach. Again, no denial of God’s triune nature, no mention of the personages of God”//
The Qur’an deny right from the beginning when it says: Do not say “THREE” or (thalathah ثلاثة in Arabic) when talking about God essence/nature. God is absolute ONE.
Your attempt to argue about a term is just silly. Triune or trinity is just a late invention.
Trinity or trinitas comes very late in the christian vocabulary, it was around 11-12th century; from Middle English Trinite < Old French < Late Latin trīnitās triad, trio.
In Arabic christian literature trinity is called thalutha ثالوث which simpy means triple or triplet, same root same meaning with thalathah. It is all about “three” which inherently polytheistic. Thats why the Qur’an forbid it.
//Irk:There is also a point to be made here that the quran has no historical context for its claims about the person it calls Jesus. It claims that Jesus’ mother was the sister of Aaron and names Aaron and Moses’ father Imran as her father.//
In semitic idiom, the root A-kh (Heb: אח and Ar: اخ ) denote not only direct sibling from the contemporary but can also metaphorically describe members of the same tribe or faith whether it is male of female.
If you are not familiar with semitic language this can seem odd.
Prophet Muhammad said in one of sahih hadith
The root word used here is A-kh (Heb: אח and Ar: اخ )….and of course many prophets were not contemporary to each other, so Prophet Muhammad knew what the revelation to him was not about genealogical but metaphorical relation in faith.
We can find such example in the bible in the book Jeremiah 3:6-8
Here in Judah is called a “sister” a-khoth אֲחוֹת of Israel . While Judah clearly was not contemporary of “Israel” , a term which techically belongs to Jacob , which infact was Judah father, in other word the term metaphorically means the genealogical relation of a common ancestor, exactly like the we find in Quranic designation of Mary.
Also there is a good reason why the Quran refer Mary to Aaron kinship. It emphatically gives a particular significance that Mary’s son ie. Jesus has the birth right as “the Messiah” or anointed one.
From Exodus 30:30-31
We read
30:30. And with it you (ie. Moses) shall anoint Aaron and his sons and sanctify them to serve Me [as kohanim/priests].
30:31 And to the children of Israel you shall speak, saying:’This shall be oil of holy anointment to Me for your generations.
Clearly God ordered prophet Moses to anoint his brother Aaron with a special type of anointment with a particular oil for kings …..from this anointing it give him and his heirs the right to the priesthood title down to prophet Isa/Jesus, hence the title Jesus “the Christ”.
//Irk:Really? Hinduism has sin expiation, crucifixion, bodily resurrection, One Triune God, Jews as the Chosen People, belief in all the prophets, the Torah as revelation…..?//
We are talking about the attributes of God.
Genuine Semitic revelation define God as
If G0d can incarnate to become a human or monkey, or cow, that is Hinduism 101.
//Irk:Your theology concerning the Triune God, the incarnation, God existing in three states simultaneously and the Holy Spirit is only extremely vaguely supported in the quran at best and mostly not supported at all.//
Our theology, the Tawheed is clear, there are none like God
Your theology insist that God become man, even to the point of being born human, this could not possibly be God in any way. Becoming a man would make God like other humans — something God tells us He DENIES.
This shows clearly that God denies He ever become a man, become multiple persons. This is our theology.
//Irk:I never said God shifts modes at all or even implied it. I think you must have misunderstood my point.//
I dont know what game you are playing but you said: “Can you tell me anything in creation that can exist in three states simultaneously, is able to move in and out of creation and time but is not limited by it”
..able to move in and out of creation can only mean able to shift in and out different creation.
Definition
shift
verb
1.
move or cause to move from one place to another, especially over a small distance.
“I shift the weight back to the other leg”
synonyms: move, slide, slip, be displaced
“the cargo has shifted”
noun
1.
a slight change in position, direction, or tendency.
“a shift of wind took us by surprise”
synonyms: movement, move, transference, transport, transposition, relocation More
2.
one of two or more recurring periods in which different groups of workers do the same jobs in relay.
“the night shift”
synonyms: stint, stretch, spell of work
“they worked three shifts”
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Eric
I think you know that is not true. The Trinity concept has always been integral to Christian theology right from the start. But if you are going to go that route, then please show me where in the quran Allah says that he has 99 names and attributes? Where does he use those words? Where does he say that you have to say the shahada in order to become Muslim? Where does he say that you cannot be Muslim unless you proclaim Mohammed as his prophet.
Let’s make it easier for you. Where does Allah say in the quran that he does not consist of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Where does he say he cannot and did not enter creation via the incarnation? Where does he say that he cannot exist in multiple states simultaneously?
Prophet Muhammad said in one of sahih hadithThe hadith is not the revealed word of Allah. It was only formulated decades after Mohammed’s death.
Christian don’t say that he became man like other humans – we say he became fully human like other fully human humans, and that he also exists simultaneously as Father and Holy spirit. There are no beings like this in creation and there are no reasons from the scripture that He is unable to do this. Allah certainly does not deny that this happened. The quran does not support the Islamic position on this.
Islamic theology limits God and basically diminishes him.
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Wth the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
//Irk:I think you know that is not true. The Trinity concept has always been integral to Christian theology right from the start.//
No it has not.
Trinity was never sort of thing believed by the very first Christians.
Jesus was a jew and he never taught trinity neither He ever corrected the belief of the jews of his time who were monotheistic. Never any mention in the Bible and the entire early church did not mention about this too . Later in the 2nd century the Modalists showed up, there were almost no mention about trinity either (only Origen and Tertullian writing refer to Τριάς (Trias) but this ) . The battle for christians orthodoxy continue until around the end of the 4th century until then there was no such a thing as trinity as part of christian theology. Only after the Council of Constantinople which was backed by pagan Roman Trinity yield as official doctrine.
So it was man-made and never part Jesus (p) actual teaching.
//Irk:But if you are going to go that route, then please show me where in the quran Allah says that he has 99 names and attributes? Where does he use those words? Where does he say that you have to say the shahada in order to become Muslim? Where does he say that you cannot be Muslim unless you proclaim Mohammed as his prophet.//
We are discussing about who God is. This is very important subject. In Islam we call it Aqeedah عقيدة . it refers to those matters which are believed in, with certainty and conviction, in one’s heart and soul. They are not tainted with any doubt or uncertainty. Hence, the Islamic creed. One of the most important of this is the Belief the tawheed:
We derive this aqeedah because the evidences are all over the Qur’an and the authentic hadiths.
On this very important subject we don’t rely on something vague or obscure. Like how can God is Triune. There is no evidence . If you want muslims to believe that God is Triune give us evidence from the Qur’an and authentic hadiths, we’ll accept it.
Now for Allah’s best/beautiful names أسماء الله الحسنى, and the shahada (the witness), this constitute only as component the Aqeedah and pillar faith. And we find the evidences from the Qur’an and the hadiths too.
//Irk:Let’s make it easier for you. Where does Allah say in the quran that he does not consist of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Where does he say he cannot and did not enter creation via the incarnation? Where does he say that he cannot exist in multiple states simultaneously?//
When the Qur’an holds that God is One (Al-ʾAḥad) and Single (Al-Wāḥid) , it is impossible to say that He consist of more than one Godly being. it is blasphemous , the greatest sin in Islam.
When you say God consist of Son i.e. Jesus, (who had limited knowledge, including the last hour therefore he was a human). It is associating God with His creation. It is idolatry. The greatest and unforgivable sin in Islam.
God prohibited it vehemently in the Qur’an: Desist it!
//Irk:The hadith is not the revealed word of Allah. It was only formulated decades after Mohammed’s death.//
Muslims is in the better position to accept the hadiths as authentic teaching of Prophet Muhammad who was the recipient of the revelation of God. Because, unlike the Bible, the collection of hadiths are equipped with proper documentation regarding its sources and chain of transmissions. So we can be certain who were the authors nor there biographies of the transmitters. Read here for introductory info on the method of authenticating hadiths vs the bible.
//Irk:Christian don’t say that he became man like other humans – we say he became fully human like other fully human humans, and that he also exists simultaneously as Father and Holy spirit.//
This god-man concept is blasphemous, true God can not be associated by human attributes, the Qur’an vehemently forbids:
i) The Qur’an said “Say, He is Allah, one and only“. Is god-man Jesus one and only? No! his creation was like of Adam, his miracles was one among the many prophets , he did not know anything, he tempted by evil.
ii) The Quran said ‘Allah is most Holy and absolute and eternal’. We know Jesus got angry and curse (Matthew 23:13-33). Insulting language (Matthew 15:22-27) predicting wrong prophecy (Matthew 24:34). he was hungry (Mark 11:12) he was suffering etc.
iii) The Qur’an said ‘He begets not, nor is He begotten’. We know that Jesus was born from a womb of woman. And he mention of 10 party virgins suggest he also had sexual desires like any other human.
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He is God
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Eric
You are quite incorrect, but more importantly, I think you are trying to change the subject.
The doctrine of the Trinity, God’s entry into His creation via the incarnation, His simultaneous existence as a multi-personal Triunity, and the doctrine of the Holy Spirit were all well established by the time of Mohammed. That is your problem.
If Islam supposedly “corrects” the unbelief of the Christians, then these specific doctrines must be specifically addressed by Allah in the quran. He must say I am not Triune, he must say I cannot and did not enter creation via the incarnation, and he must explicitly say that he cannot exist simultaneously in three states. He never does.
And why does he never mention the Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity?
Not when it comes from God Himself. Blasphemy is placing boundaries and limitations around God that even your own holy book does not support. Jesus was fully human, but part of the Triune God that can exist in different states simultaneously. So whilst he is fully human, he is not like other created beings. Even the quran acknowledges that Jesus was unique – virgin birth, sinless, the only prophet that God cared enough about to save from death.
God’s truth shines even in the darkest places.
But where does Allah say that he – HE – cannot and did not enter creation via the incarnation? Surely Allah can make himself seen and heard when he so chooses? Do you assert – based on no quranic scripture that I can think of – that he cannot do what he chooses?
I think that you are the one who is limiting God.
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
//Irk:The doctrine of the Trinity, God’s entry into His creation via the incarnation, His simultaneous existence as a multi-personal Triunity, and the doctrine of the Holy Spirit were all well established by the time of Mohammed. That is your problem.//
Your version of established christianity is far from truth.
There were a lot of version of christianity, and the issue of trinity is not resolved until now. Trinitarianism may be majority in christendom but it does not guarantee the truth, there are other christians who do not believe in trinity and consider it a Pagan influence.
Have you ever thought why You have NO scriptures in Jesus own language, the aramaic? Arabic Qur’an is closer to Aramaic of Jesus , and the vast majority of Aramaic speaking christians who were predominant in the middle east disappeared and adopted Arabic of the Qur’an within short period. I am sure thats because those people got oral tradition dated back to Jesus and they knew the Qur’an message is in line with genuine message of Jesus in Aramaic.
If look at the history, triune god is far from a settled issue in early christendom and until now. There were followers of Christ who follow torah law and believe that Jesus was not a divine being (by nature) but was a human who had been chosen by God (at his baptism) to be his Son i.e. special person , a prophet. This was the Ebionites who were from jewish background. There were also group of gentiles in Rome who did not follow the Torah, they believed that Jesus was completely and only human, born of the sexual union of his parents, a man who, on account of his superior righteousness, came to be adopted as the Son of God at his baptism. They also maintained that their views were apostolic, advocated by the disciples of Jesus and transmitted through true believers down to their own day.
And of course there were also group, who maintained that Christ was a subordinate to God the Father. The Father is superior to all things and he create Jesus at some point in time.
So it is unlikely that triune god was firmly established at the time of prophet Muhammad especially in the middle east region. Rome did not have strong grip over that region.
//Irk:If Islam supposedly “corrects” the unbelief of the Christians, then these specific doctrines must be specifically addressed by Allah in the quran. He must say I am not Triune, he must say I cannot and did not enter creation via the incarnation, and he must explicitly say that he cannot exist simultaneously in three states. He never does.//
This is argumentum ex silentio.
The question you must ask is: why triune god has never been taught by earlier prophets… No mention in time of received Abraham revelation,.. not a word when Moses and many jews received revelation at Mt. Sinai. ..not a word from Jesus?… There were absolutely no mention of God saying : I am Triune, and I am god incarnate.
why?
The Qur’an and the Bible clearly stated that Nothing can see God, God is invisible , Nothing is like God., N-o-t-h-i-n-g....why then anyone expect to believe that god incarnate into a human which can be seen, and immortal .
You are deviating from the truth .
//Irk: And why does he never mention the Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity?//
There was only little mention of holy spirt in early trinitarianism, the first recorded use is Theophilus’ writings who wrote:
So there is no evidence in the inclusion of “spirit” in Theophilus writing. The exact status and role of the Spirit was not formulated even as late as 4th century. It would not matter if the Trinity was composed of any permutations and combinations of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or the Mary or even Martin Luther King or Calvin or Pope………… It would still be considered as associating partners with Allah.
//Irk:But where does Allah say that he – HE – cannot and did not enter creation via the incarnation? Surely Allah can make himself seen and heard when he so chooses? Do you assert – based on no quranic scripture that I can think of – that he cannot do what he chooses?//
Again this argument from silence fallacy.
But if you insist this path it only means trinity is at odd with earlier and genuine revelations. There is no way we can accept any suggestion that “god can make himself seen and heard when he so chooses”, because if we able to see “god” it must not be God. Because we know that God has spoken in the scriptures that Nothing can see God, God is invisible, Nothing is like God.
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Eric
So you are saying that other Muslims apologists are lying when they claim that the Trinity was established at the Nicene Council in the year 325 AD? Is that before Mohammed? Or do I have my dates wrong about the beginnings of Islam? Didn’t you post on the Athanasian Creed which predates Islam by at least 150 years?
The Trinity was the orthodox Christian position by the 7th Century. If you are saying that the Trinity is not the Christian position that the quran claims to be correcting then which Christian sect was it correcting?
Of course, I doubt that you realize that if it is the case that the quran is not correcting the Trinity as I have outlined it, then you have admitted that I am correct and you are not – Allah in the quran is silent – absolutely silent – on the Trinity, God’s triune nature, God’s entrance into creation via incarnation, his existence in three states simultaneously, and the Holy Spirit.
You have conceded. Nowhere in the quran does Allah explicitly address, correct, or deny these orthodox Christian beliefs that were well established – as the Athanasian Creed that you yourself posted attests – by the time of mohammed.
It’s not a fallacy if the silence consists of the bulk of the fundamental objection to the religions it claims to be correcting.
Islam claims to correct Christian unbelief but Allah never actually corrects any of the tenets of Christian belief. This is not just silence – it is a profound and fundamental absence of the very arguments against Christianity.
Allah just does not agree with Islamic theology – nowhere in your holy book does Allah even come close to denying any of the Christian doctrines I have outlined. Muslims are not listening to the quran.</b?
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
//Irk:So you are saying that other Muslims apologists are lying when they claim that the Trinity was established at the Nicene Council in the year 325 AD? Is that before Mohammed? Or do I have my dates wrong about the beginnings of Islam? Didn’t you post on the Athanasian Creed which predates Islam by at least 150 years?//
I was responding to your bold claim that trinitarians do not say three but triune. I refuted you by citing Athanasian creed which I believe most trinitarians subscribed to, and proved you wrong.
But
Whether or not this is “orthodox” view it really depend on which side are you in. Unitarian Christian who had exactly the same canon and used it extensively for their views think that their views are as biblical as the trinitarian, if not more so. Nowhere does the NT indicate, e.g., that Christ is “of the same substance as the Father,” or that there never was a time before which he was not. (!)
Also trinitarians started and originated from pagan religious or philosophical tradition. Divine triune abound in the religious writings and art of ancient Europe, Egypt, the near east, and Asia. These include various threesomes of male deities, of female deities, of Father-Mother-Son groups, or of one body with three heads, or three faces on one head (–> see “Triads and Trinity”, by Professor J. Gwyn Griffiths)
So the Qur’an is absolutely clever when it is not specific to which version trinity it forbids. The Qur’an is about guidance not about history. It would not matter if the Trinity was composed of any permutations and combinations It would still be considered as associating partners with God.
The burden is with trinitarian to give evidence how God changes his mind that “god can make himself seen and heard when he so chooses”, because we know that God has spoken in the scriptures clearly Nothing can see God, God is invisible, Nothing is like God.
You also fail to give evidence from the scriptures why triune god has never been taught by earlier prophets… No mention in time of received Abraham revelation,.. not a word when Moses and many jews received revelation at Mt. Sinai. ..not a word from Jesus?… Not a word from prophet Muhamad. There were absolutely no mention of God saying :I am Triune, and I am god incarnate.
Besides, think about it for a moment, what do you mean when you said “god enter creation via the incarnation” ?
Did god incarnate into a man. what do you mean that? Was god still god when become human?
What we know that all the Jesus show human qualities and have many failings, therefore he is only human. The worship human is idolatry and should be abhorred in all its forms and manifestations.
That is the reason why the Qur’an speaks against all forms of anthropomorphism.
.
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Eric
The only claim I’ve made – and I suppose it is bold – is that Allah never explicitly denies his triunity. I don’t think you can escape this glaring hole in Islamic theology by dodging with semantics.
Except the Injeel clearly says that Jesus’ disciples have seen God.
You have the burden since Islam claims to be correcting false Christian belief. I have found no clear passage in the quran where Allah explicitly and clearly denies the claims that he can and did enter creation via the incarnation, that he is triune, and that he can exist simultaneously in three states. Plus, you haven’t shown a single verse where Allah mentions the Holy Spirit as part of the trinity. Allah has no idea that the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity, yet Muslims claim that the quran corrects our false beliefs!
Islam claims that it corrects incorrect Christian belief – yet you cannot show me where in your holy book Allah actually does this.
I don’t have to prove anything because you are the guys saying that Allah has given you the truth and that this truth corrects Christian unbelief.
But Allah never explicitly denies any of the specific Christian beliefs that I have mentioned – at least you have been unable to show me where he did.
Contrary to Muslim belief, Allah does not correct anything about Christianity. You are not even sure which sect of Christianity the quran is supposed to be correcting. It certainly does not seem to have a problem with orthodox Christian doctrines about the Trinity because Allah just does not explicitly demonstrate any specific denial of them.
Besides, think about it for a moment, what do you mean when you said “god enter creation via the incarnation” ?
Did god incarnate into a man. what do you mean that? Was god still god when become human?I have thought about it, but you haven’t. You are implying that God can only exist in one state at a time – like all the other beings and objects he has created. In other words, you think Allah is like his creation. You do the math on that one – you have placed human limitations on God.
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The last part didn’t format properly. Should be…..
I have thought about it, but you haven’t. You are implying that God can only exist in one state at a time – like all the other beings and objects he has created. In other words, you think Allah is like his creation. You do the math on that one – you have placed human limitations on God.
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“Contrary to Muslim belief, Allah does not correct anything about Christianity. ”
Surah 3:59
‘Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, “Be,” and he was.’
So, Jesus is just like Adam, merely a created being.
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Paul
The Jesus in the quran is said to be the son of woman named Mary who was the sister of Aaron and Moses, and they are all the children of Imran – people who lived over a millennium before the time of Jesus of Nazareth in 1st century Palestine.
You have claimed a correction to Christian doctrines that shows historical inaccuracy, ignorance about Jewish practices regarding associating people with their distant ancestors, is extremely vague about placing Jesus in his appropriate historical and geographical context and and a narrative about a Jesus that has no 1st century documentary support.
A hardcore skeptic might wonder if the quran is even referring to the the same Jesus that we find in the New Testament. Could there have been a Jesus in 7th century palestine who had uncles named Aaron and Moses, a grandfather named Imran and claimed to be a messenger of Allah?
I think calling it a correction is a stretch to say the least. It is certainly an alternate view, but the surrounding narratives are too vague, bizarre or unsupported by 1st century documentary evidence to say that it can be taken seriously as a correction.
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Above should read…..” Could there have been a Jesus in 7th century Arabia who had uncles named Aaron and Moses, a grandfather named Imran and claimed to be a messenger of Allah?
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It is also worth pointing out that the quran doesn’t say how Allah has corrected the false beliefs of the Jews, or what those false beliefs are.
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Irk, you made the false claim:
“Contrary to Muslim belief, Allah does not correct anything about Christianity.”
I refuted you by quoting from Surah 3:59:
‘Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, “Be,” and he was.’
Please have the good grace to admit you are in the wrong. The Quran clearly corrects a key Christian belief that Jesus is God.
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Btw Bobby boy, your writing style is obvious: irrational, dogmatic, know-it-all. You have been banned once before. Time to admit who you are or will you continue the pretence?
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Paul
Well I don’t think I am wrong – my point was that the supposed correction has dubious credibility because of the overall vague and historically uncredible information the quran provides about “Jesus”.
That is my entire point; Allah’s correction of Christian belief is not very credible since it is so often unspecific, particularly regarding the doctrines I have discussed with Eric.
I suppose the blockquotes and italics were a dead give-away. But I think I have raised some good points.
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honestly dude I think your points are crap. But its not my job to convince you.
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Paul
I guess we’ll just have to disagree on that one. I think it is hugely significant that Allah never explicitly, straightforwardly, or clearly denies any of the doctrines I have mentioned – not one.
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LOL the only thing ‘hugely significant’ is the fact you are so dumb and brain dead. You would not know you were refuted if it fell on your head like a brick.
The Catholics have a term for your condition: invincible ignorance.
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Paul
God bless you Paul.
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and you are banned – again
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Notice how vile and hypocritical you are Paul. You condemn me and others for allegedly being “nasty” with you Muhammadans but say nothing of the filth and vileness that spews out of your mouth against people like Irk whose argumentation prove too much for your pee brain to handle. But you again are a perfect example of Muhammad’s character, since he too spewed venom and abuses against people, and then turned around and murdered those who repaid him the favor and gave him a taste of his own medicine. You truly are slime like YahyaSlime.
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Ah Sam, the perfect Christian example of good manners, integrity and virtue lol.
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‘Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, “Be,” and he was.’
So according to the Koran, Isa didn’t have a human mother or father?
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According to the Quran Jesus was born of the virgin Mary just as in Christian belief. The quote above teaches that Jesus was a created being just like Adam. Luke and Matthew imply this too in their nativity narratives.
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Well, then Adam was nothing like Jesus. Being created ex-nihilo from dust (as the Koran describes here) is every different from natural human conception. That ayat is significantly misleading.
It requires immense eisegesis to come to your conclusion based on what that ayat says.
Paul Williams: “According to the Quran Jesus was born of the virgin Mary”
Koran: “the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust;”
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Actually, the relevant Quranic verse is a response to the claim that Jesus is God because he had no father.
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Mark I don’t agree.
You are missing the point. The Quran clearly teaches that Adam and Jesus are alike in that they are both created beings. God willed that they came into existence by a supernatural act. This is obviously an indirect polemic against the mistaken Christian view that somehow Jesus is uncreated/God.
Luke and Matthew also imply Jesus was created at his conception. There is no notion of his preexistence in those gospels. Only with John do we get the idea of Jesus’s preexistence in the gospels.
Its not difficult to understand.
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Paul
I think that you are missing a huge problem with that Surah 3:59 – it contradicts the other narrative of Jesus’ entry into the world. So the question you have to ask yourselves goes something like this…..is the quran correcting itself rather than correcting Christianity with surah 3:59?
Elsewhere in the quran, the narrative says nothing about Allah creating Jesus from dust, just that he breathes His Spirit into Mary. In other words, Jesus is not made from dust at all but is God’s spirit incarnated into human flesh.
Do you see the problem?
Surah 3:59 was revealed before Surah 66:12 so is therefore abrogated.
Clearly, you cannot claim that 3:59 is a correction of anything in Christianity – at best you can say that it abrogates previous narratives about Jesus’ incarnation, but is then itself abrogated by Surah 66:12.
Surah 66:12 echoes very strongly the Christian belief about Jesus’s incarnation, and so it is hard to see how you can claim that it corrects Christian belief since it agrees with it.
The final word from Allah o the subject is that Jesus was His spirit made flesh.
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Kirk I disagree with your interpretation of the Quran. I see no contradiction between these two verses:
Surah 3:59 ‘In God’s eyes Jesus is just like Adam: He created him from dust, and said to him, ‘Be’, and he was
Surah 66:12 ‘She guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her from Our Spirit’.
Jesus is a human being just as we are, made from ‘dust’, ie earthy matter as opposed to fire or pure spirit.
Surah 3:59 has a polemical edge to it namely that Jesus was not part God/part man as most Christians believe but thoroughly human.
As to the mode of his creation, that is certainly exceptional. Like Adam, Jesus had no earthly father, and was created ‘ex nihilo’ – without sexual intercourse – by the breath of God. But like Adam this does not make Jesus divine as many Christians have claimed.
So these verses together teach a rich and convincing Christology.
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Paul
Well not if you hold your holy book to be telling the truth. Adam was created with dust, not ex nihilo (out of nothing). Jesus incarnated via Allah’s spirit – as Allah’s final words on the subject show.
In other words, they are nothing alike. Even the quran says that Jesus is God’s spirit incarnated into human flesh.
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Incarnated? I don’t think so.
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Paul
This is the definition of incarnate in the dictionary
The quran’s final word on the subject (Surah 66:12) says that Jesus was Allah’s spirit breathed into Mary – i.e. God’s spirit embodied, incarnated.
Once again, the quran disagrees with Islamic theology.
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Dude you are just reading your own Christian theology into the Quran. Nowhere does it say Jesus is incarnated or embodied of God.
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