“Hopefully” – so you do the choosing with hope. i.e. it’s a bit of a hit or miss process and you just have to hope you get it right.
“most in line with the evidence” – how do you assess this if you are not a scholar? Doesn’t the fact that there are scholars with differing opinions imply that the evidence is not conclusive?
“and consensus” – this just sounds like following the herd. Consensusses (consensi?) can be wrong. And if scholars have differing opinions, there is no consensus.
yes, there is a difference of opinion in this matter – as we move through different epochs and historical contexts then our scholars have to assess how the shariah is to be applied in each new context and there is an on-going discussion about this issue in today’s world.
Most Muslims already follow a school be it Hanafi, Malaki, Hanbali or Shafi, and will follow the advice of their scholars.
In Islam the most important thing which is salvation is clearly spelt out over and over just like in the Bible that God is One, Only and Alone and nothing else. The Bible said God is One, Only and Alone and nothing else and no 1 else. All prophets, day of judgement, existence of Angels etc. is also clearly spelt our and must be followed just like Judaism and Christianity.
The rest are left for us to use our intellect and common sense. Some Muslims can grow beard and others will not and I do not think God will punish anyone for shaving his beard. This is common sense. Some Muslims will dress how they heard our prophet dress. I wear my Jeans and T-Shirt and make sure it is not tight to discomfort me. God will not punish me for not wearing what Prophet Mohammed use to wear.
There is clear punishment of killing apostates in Christianity and Judaism and Christians had done that until stopped by the liberal West.
Yes, In Islam there are school of thoughts, and most support the soft one of not killing apostate if he is not going to trouble the Ummah. Of course, if he is going to trouble the Umman and incite others against the ummah, even those against Islam will punish Edward Snowdem.
Allah made is so because situations determines a decision but situation and time CAN NEVER EVER determine the NATURE OF GOD. NOT AT ALL. GOD WILL ALWAYS BE WHO HE IS ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.
Paul,
Thanks for your comments.
I’ve had a look at the Wikipedia entries for the schools you mention and they all seem to classify apostasy as a crime, and if serious (which seems to mean attempting to persuade other Muslims) deserving of the death penalty.
Which school do you follow? And how do you reconcile the Islamic policy on apostasy with the laws of your country?
Personally I would not take wiki as a reliable source for Islamic subjects. Each school has diversity of opinion within it and it is not a black and white as wiki supposes.
The laws of the U.K. are not Islamic laws so there is not requirement to reconcile them.
Intellect,
Thank you for your comments.
You say “All prophets, day of judgement, existence of Angels etc. is also clearly spelt our and must be followed… ”
The prophets lived a long time ago: are you saying that we should follow their teachings exactly? Or can we modify any of their teachings? If so how do we know which teachings we can change?
“There is clear punishment of killing apostates in Christianity and Judaism and Christians had done that until stopped by the liberal West” – the history of religious freedom in Europe is a long and complex one, but it starts well before the appearance of liberalism.
Paul,
Point taken about Wikipedia – my eyes were opened after reading about the antics of Jagged 85.
On the subject of apostasy, I can’t really see how in this day and age there can be any controversy. Article 18 of the Universal declaration of Human Rights says:
“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”
God has His rights too and takes our religious obligations to Him with the utmost seriousness. He has ordained that once someone converts to Islam it is not permitted to leave the faith publicly and disrupt the community. The public denial of God’s will and decrees in an Islamic society is a grave offence.
There is a similar understanding in the Bible and the historical Christian tradition.
You said;
The prophets lived a long time ago: are you saying that we should follow their teachings exactly? Or can we modify any of their teachings? If so how do we know which teachings we can change?
I say;
I mean to say we must believe in all the prophets of God in the Bible or NT and Torah and follow their teachings exactly when it comes to salvation i.e. God is One, Only and Alone and nothing else as it is clearly spelt out over and over in all scriptures. That Nature of God and salvation which is the exact teachings of all prophets must be followed exactly.
Other teachings like how to pray, how to fast, how to give charity etc. which are not the nature of God and can change depending on circumstances is always being updated by God Himself through other prophets, scholars and prophetic traditions.
The teachings about salvation that God is one, only and alone must remain the same because God’s nature do not change as the Bible says God is not a man, God is immortal and will not die, God is 1, God is Only and God is Alone.
NO, NO, NO “God is 3 persons”, “God is hypostatic Union-Trinitas Unitas”, “God the Father generating God the Son”, “Jesus says “I am God worship me”” No, No, Not in the Bible will tell you that the message Abraham taught his father and the idol worshiper to worship only 1 God alone is the same that is why it is still clear in the Bible. I can give you the verses upon request and I hope and pray you knew them.
So, Mr. Andy we follow all the prophets teachings exactly when it comes to salvation and the nature of God because God do not change according to the Bible. Other teachings can be adjusted to accommodate the environment i.e. I do not have to fast if I am sick. I do not have to care about apostasy in England. It is un-Islamic for any Muslim to punish any apostate in non-Muslim country. In a caliphate, the Islamic jurist will determine it he is a threat or not.
Edward Snowdem has become a threat to the West for his public challenging them and they want him to punish him.
God, as Paul Williams said will not be kind to someone who publicly ridicule Him as in the Christian, Jewish and Muslim tradition.
When the Christians took over Spain from the Muslims, the force converted Muslims and Jews and some of the Muslims and Jews tried to hide and pray in their rooms but later the Jews followed the Muslims to the Arab world and North Africa like Morocco, Egypt etc. where there are free to worship in their religion without fear or favour.
Calvin ordered the killings of Michael because he rejects Trinity. There are so many examples.
Thanks for correction Paul. This site is for learning. I just want to show respect and humility. I will not respect Shamoun and Qureish because they are liars. Qureish Nabeel especially.
correction
I said
I am wrong by saying this;
God, as Paul Williams said will not be kind to someone who publicly ridicule Him as in the Christian, Jewish and Muslim tradition.
Instead, I wanted to say this;
Paul Williams
March 4, 2016 • 3:58 pm
God has His rights too and takes our religious obligations to Him with the utmost seriousness. He has ordained that once someone converts to Islam it is not permitted to leave the faith publicly and disrupt the community. The public denial of God’s will and decrees in an Islamic society is a grave offence.
There is a similar understanding in the Bible and the historical Christian tradition.
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
2 Chronicles 15:13 “All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.”
“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.‘
Deuteronomy 17:3-5 “And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, …..and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die.”
madmanna, I have more apostasy verses from both old and new testaments.
Do you support Calvin ordering the Killing of Michael because he rejects Trinity?
Do you support the Catholics killing the protestant Christians?
Do you support the Protestant Christians Killing Catholic Christians in the USA?
Do you support the force conversion of Muslim slaves from Africa by the Christians slave Masters? that makes almost all Africa American Christians after slavery? But now of course some African Americans are trying to convert from Christianity.
We are not in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia arbitrary use both Western and Islamic laws for its political agenda. Islamic law did not tell Saudi Arabian rulers refuse women to drive. Our prophet wives has been business women and Ayisha (RA) was reported riding a Camel by herself.
New International Version
“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.”
Let’s leave the parable in the context in which Jesus placed it.
“The Parable of the Ten Minas
(Matthew 25:14-30)
11And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.”
Jesus is telling us in a parable what he will do at his second coming when he comes to judge the world.
It is a picture of the final judgement portrayed using a scene taken from life during his time. It is not a literal description of what will happen at his return.
The parable itself determines how it should be interpreted.
Parables can not be used to create laws but only to illustrate them.
“madmanna, I have more apostasy verses from both old and new testaments.”
I reply:
Under the new covenant form of the kingdom there are no violent criminal punishments applied to the believer.
Islam projects it’s followers in to a covenant form which no longer exists. It does this so it can misuse the laws of this abrogated covenant for political purposes. It’s a make-believe world that does not exist except in the pages of islamic scriptures. Unfortunately for the rest of us.
Calvin had a choice: he called for the execution of Michael Servetus and asked for the opinions of all the Reformers in Europe about the right punishment. They all agreed to have him executed for heresy.
A parable to kill is Good? Only an Islamophobe like you who will see any “combat them if they fight you” in the Quran and swear that Quran is bad, but when you see kill, stone to death, execute etc. in both the New and Old Testament, you turn a blind eye on them and claim they are parable.
Well a parable to execute is still cruel, barbaric and inhume. That is what the Christian crusaders used to kill and force convert other.
How many times have we explained to you that the verses in the Quran is for self defence? madmanna, shame on you to bring a “parable” card to us but reject our self defence explanations.
I see how you tried to explain things to us but there are more verses in the NT and OT that clearly states people be killed if they do not listen to Jesus or the God of the Bible.
A parable to kill is just like a law to kill. Why must you condemn the Quran and defend your parable to kill? shame on you madmanna, you make me sick honestly.
par·a·ble
/ˈperəb(ə)l/
noun
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
synonyms: allegory, moral story/tale, fable, exemplum
“the parable of the prodigal son”
A spiritual lesson to kill is very, very dangerous to lead those seeking spirituality and follow that parable and kill people who do not believe them like Calvin killing Michael, protestants and Catholics killing each other.
Under the new covenant form of the kingdom there are no violent criminal punishments applied to the believer.
Islam projects it’s followers in to a covenant form which no longer exists. It does this so it can misuse the laws of this abrogated covenant for political purposes. It’s a make-believe world that does not exist except in the pages of islamic scriptures. Unfortunately for the rest of us.
I say;
Any religion like your Christian new covenant that form a kingdom that has no criminal punishment to allow rapists to continue to rape, murderers continue to murder, robbers continue to rob etc. without punishment is a new covenant from satan but not from God.
Under the old covenant, Jesus as God ordered killings anyway. In the new covenant Jesus ordered killings and there are so many in the NT but you turned a blind eye on them then insult the Quran. Independent studies shows the NT violence alone or the OT violence alone is more the Quran.
You said;
Parables can not be used to create laws but only to illustrate them
I say;
What is illustrate then?
You see. A Christian will criticize you. If you criticize a Christian on worse thing that can be found in his(Christian) scripture, then he(Christian) will use all sorts of lies including changing of words to make his worse killing verses looks better.
If I say the verses in the Quran ILLUSTRATES how to kill, madmanna, would you not say the Quran is bad by illustrating how to kill? Parable can be used to illustrate laws is what you said and the parables are killings and so the parable is used to illustrate killings.
il·lus·trate
/ˈiləˌstrāt/
verb
provide (a book, newspaper, etc.) with pictures.
“the guide is illustrated with full-color photographs”
synonyms: decorate, adorn, ornament, accompany, embellish; add pictures/drawings to, provide artwork for
“the photographs that illustrate the book”
•with illustrations, with pictures, with drawings, pictorial
“an illustrated collection of poems”
•explain or make (something) clear by using examples, charts, pictures, etc.
“the results are illustrated in Figure 7”
synonyms: explain, explicate, elucidate, clarify, make plain, demonstrate, show, emphasize; informalget across
“this can be illustrated through a brief example”
•serve as an example of.
“a collection of pieces that illustrate Bach’s techniques”
synonyms: exemplify, typify, epitomize, show, demonstrate, display, represent, encapsulate
“his sense of humor was illustrated by his screen saver”
“Any religion like your Christian new covenant that form a kingdom that has no criminal punishment to allow rapists to continue to rape, murderers continue to murder, robbers continue to rob etc. without punishment is a new covenant from satan but not from God.”
If Islam implements the law of Moses without the apostasy and temple laws that would be fine by me. Go ahead.
Does Sharia actually outlaw rape, murder and robbery? I don’t believe so. Obviously you do.
I know of many Christians who do not support the capital punishments imposed by the secular states (eg USA & China) for murder. The Pope would be the most famous example.
You said;
As far as I know all secular governments of all countries have criminal punishments for rape, murder and robbery.
I don’t know of any Christians who don’t support these laws.
I say;
The Church which controls the West before the secular governments which was formed by force against the Church , used to implement their law based on Christianity.
Apostates are killed. Other religions are prohibited by the West and that is why there was no single Muslim in Europe when it was controlled by the Pope. Freedom of religion is achieved when the Pope was defeated by the liberals and the power of the Church reduced.
Under Athanasius, Constance etc. and to some extent Constantine etc. people are persecuted by dissenting the with the Christian faith that is strong.
Catholics persecuted protestants when they were strong and vice versa. Christians persecuted Muslims and Jews in Spain. You madmanna do not know Christianity better than all these.
You said;
Does Sharia actually outlaw rape, murder and robbery? I don’t believe so. Obviously you do.
I say;
Allah says in the Qur’an, (And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way) (Al-Isra’ 17: 32).
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise” (Al-Bukhari).
“An adulterer is not a believer at the time of committing adultery.” (Bukhari and Muslim)
Robbery, murder and all social vices are prohibited by Islam.
Nice reply to madmanna. Time after time, he is being refuted for his inaccurate statements against Islam. For a guy who runs a blog purporting to discuss the “hammer of Islam” versus the “anvil of Christianity”, he is very ignorant about what Islam teaches. Why are there so many ignorant people with opinions about Islam, but who have not spent much time doing scholarly research on it? I have no idea…
Madmanna, since you don’t know much about Islam, maybe you shouldn’t be making blanket statements about Islam? That’s good advice.
A couple of weeks ago madmanna accepted and agreed with me that; If God is one, only and alone and possess His attributes, then NO ONE IS GOD and therefore the Father alone is God. Ken Temple also agreed with me that the Son do not possess all the attributes of the Father. madmanna agreed and even will not support God being generated and so the Son who is generated is not God.
I thought madmanna has seen the truth and picked the truth up but he is still repeating his refuted attacks on Islam I hope and pray Allah to open madmanna’s heart to take the truth that he has seen and to all of us to pick a truth if we see it.
Paul,
Answering your question of 5th March, I consider myself to be agnostic regarding the existence or non existence of a supreme creator. I note that the arguments for and against are made by seemingly very bright people (way beyond my pay grade!) with no convincing resolution either way.
I’ve read with interest the discussions between Madmanna, Intellect and Faiz, and note that their way of reasoning (and yours) appears to be based on consulting various ancient texts, and anecdotes from history then indulging in a quotefest which to my secular eyes seems to get precisely nowhere.
I start from the observation that we live in a world containing many belief systems. History shows us that this situation can lead either to bloody conflict, or mutual respect and coexistence. Assuming we prefer the latter what characteristics of a belief system promote this?
From my perspective it is a simple logical truism that not all belief systems can be “true” (whatever that means), so any belief system that restricts its members’ rights to question it, and possible leave it, runs the risk of contributing towards the undesirable state of conflict.
Punishment for apostasy can be understood as a feature of states where religious belief is strongly associated with nationhood (or other types of community), so it becomes synonymous with treason. In many parts of the world religious freedom obtains, detaching religion from the state, so apostasy becomes meaningless and indeed, repugnant to secularists.
Islam is not my religion, so all I can say is that my hope for Muslims is that in time, the scholars and schools of law will positively abrogate previous rulings on apostasy in favour of something like Article 18 of the Universal declaration of Human Rights .
Muslim convert Charles Gai Eaton wrote an article about Muslims living in the West. Here is a brief extract:
‘Certainly, change is inherent in history, and, had Islam remained to this day the dominant world force that it once was, the life of the Muslim in the 15th century Hijrah would have been very different to the life he lived in the 5th century, let alone in the lst. But he would still have lived within a setting, a framework, molded by the spirit of Islam and by the practical requirements of the religion. Change would have taken place within the bounds set by the Qur’an and the Sunnah. The Muslim would still have felt at home in his world.
He is not and cannot be at home in the world as it is today. In the first place, the ground rules have been laid down in terms of beliefs and ideologies entirely alien to Islam. Take as only one example the Charter of the United Nations and the structure of International Law (in so far as such Law may be said to exist). The main provisions of that Charter may be acceptable to us in a general way, but this is coincidental. Not one paragraph, not even one sentence in any paragraph of the Charter is of Islamic origin or could be said to have been inspired by the Islamic ethos. The same, of course, is true of the conditions governing international trade and banking; it is true also of the educational system, especially at university level as it exists in almost every Muslim country. We have had no say in the making of the contemporary world — modern “civilization” — and we are obliged to fit into it as best we can, often as “square pegs in round holes”; an uncomfortable position, and one that might be said to emasculate us, robbing us of that self-confidence which I suggested, in my first talk, is of such profound importance.’
As far as I understand, Christianity develops over time as we gain a better understanding of God. So whilst the reformers might have been in favour of capital punishment most Christians today aren’t.
Blogging Theology 
“Numerous scholars…”
But not all scholars.
How does a Muslim choose which scholar(s) to heed?
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Good question.
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Hopefully, you choose the scholar whose view is most in line with the evidence and consensus.
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“Hopefully” – so you do the choosing with hope. i.e. it’s a bit of a hit or miss process and you just have to hope you get it right.
“most in line with the evidence” – how do you assess this if you are not a scholar? Doesn’t the fact that there are scholars with differing opinions imply that the evidence is not conclusive?
“and consensus” – this just sounds like following the herd. Consensusses (consensi?) can be wrong. And if scholars have differing opinions, there is no consensus.
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yes, there is a difference of opinion in this matter – as we move through different epochs and historical contexts then our scholars have to assess how the shariah is to be applied in each new context and there is an on-going discussion about this issue in today’s world.
Most Muslims already follow a school be it Hanafi, Malaki, Hanbali or Shafi, and will follow the advice of their scholars.
LikeLiked by 2 people
In Islam the most important thing which is salvation is clearly spelt out over and over just like in the Bible that God is One, Only and Alone and nothing else. The Bible said God is One, Only and Alone and nothing else and no 1 else. All prophets, day of judgement, existence of Angels etc. is also clearly spelt our and must be followed just like Judaism and Christianity.
The rest are left for us to use our intellect and common sense. Some Muslims can grow beard and others will not and I do not think God will punish anyone for shaving his beard. This is common sense. Some Muslims will dress how they heard our prophet dress. I wear my Jeans and T-Shirt and make sure it is not tight to discomfort me. God will not punish me for not wearing what Prophet Mohammed use to wear.
There is clear punishment of killing apostates in Christianity and Judaism and Christians had done that until stopped by the liberal West.
Yes, In Islam there are school of thoughts, and most support the soft one of not killing apostate if he is not going to trouble the Ummah. Of course, if he is going to trouble the Umman and incite others against the ummah, even those against Islam will punish Edward Snowdem.
Allah made is so because situations determines a decision but situation and time CAN NEVER EVER determine the NATURE OF GOD. NOT AT ALL. GOD WILL ALWAYS BE WHO HE IS ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.
Thanks.
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Paul,
Thanks for your comments.
I’ve had a look at the Wikipedia entries for the schools you mention and they all seem to classify apostasy as a crime, and if serious (which seems to mean attempting to persuade other Muslims) deserving of the death penalty.
Which school do you follow? And how do you reconcile the Islamic policy on apostasy with the laws of your country?
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Personally I would not take wiki as a reliable source for Islamic subjects. Each school has diversity of opinion within it and it is not a black and white as wiki supposes.
The laws of the U.K. are not Islamic laws so there is not requirement to reconcile them.
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Intellect,
Thank you for your comments.
You say “All prophets, day of judgement, existence of Angels etc. is also clearly spelt our and must be followed… ”
The prophets lived a long time ago: are you saying that we should follow their teachings exactly? Or can we modify any of their teachings? If so how do we know which teachings we can change?
“There is clear punishment of killing apostates in Christianity and Judaism and Christians had done that until stopped by the liberal West” – the history of religious freedom in Europe is a long and complex one, but it starts well before the appearance of liberalism.
What do you mean by “trouble the Ummah”
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Paul,
Point taken about Wikipedia – my eyes were opened after reading about the antics of Jagged 85.
On the subject of apostasy, I can’t really see how in this day and age there can be any controversy. Article 18 of the Universal declaration of Human Rights says:
“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”
What’s not to like about that?
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God has His rights too and takes our religious obligations to Him with the utmost seriousness. He has ordained that once someone converts to Islam it is not permitted to leave the faith publicly and disrupt the community. The public denial of God’s will and decrees in an Islamic society is a grave offence.
There is a similar understanding in the Bible and the historical Christian tradition.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Andy
You said;
The prophets lived a long time ago: are you saying that we should follow their teachings exactly? Or can we modify any of their teachings? If so how do we know which teachings we can change?
I say;
I mean to say we must believe in all the prophets of God in the Bible or NT and Torah and follow their teachings exactly when it comes to salvation i.e. God is One, Only and Alone and nothing else as it is clearly spelt out over and over in all scriptures. That Nature of God and salvation which is the exact teachings of all prophets must be followed exactly.
Other teachings like how to pray, how to fast, how to give charity etc. which are not the nature of God and can change depending on circumstances is always being updated by God Himself through other prophets, scholars and prophetic traditions.
The teachings about salvation that God is one, only and alone must remain the same because God’s nature do not change as the Bible says God is not a man, God is immortal and will not die, God is 1, God is Only and God is Alone.
NO, NO, NO “God is 3 persons”, “God is hypostatic Union-Trinitas Unitas”, “God the Father generating God the Son”, “Jesus says “I am God worship me”” No, No, Not in the Bible will tell you that the message Abraham taught his father and the idol worshiper to worship only 1 God alone is the same that is why it is still clear in the Bible. I can give you the verses upon request and I hope and pray you knew them.
So, Mr. Andy we follow all the prophets teachings exactly when it comes to salvation and the nature of God because God do not change according to the Bible. Other teachings can be adjusted to accommodate the environment i.e. I do not have to fast if I am sick. I do not have to care about apostasy in England. It is un-Islamic for any Muslim to punish any apostate in non-Muslim country. In a caliphate, the Islamic jurist will determine it he is a threat or not.
Edward Snowdem has become a threat to the West for his public challenging them and they want him to punish him.
God, as Paul Williams said will not be kind to someone who publicly ridicule Him as in the Christian, Jewish and Muslim tradition.
When the Christians took over Spain from the Muslims, the force converted Muslims and Jews and some of the Muslims and Jews tried to hide and pray in their rooms but later the Jews followed the Muslims to the Arab world and North Africa like Morocco, Egypt etc. where there are free to worship in their religion without fear or favour.
Calvin ordered the killings of Michael because he rejects Trinity. There are so many examples.
Thanks.
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Btw Intellect, ‘Andy’ is a first name in English, it is not a surname (‘Mr. Andy’)
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Thanks for correction Paul. This site is for learning. I just want to show respect and humility. I will not respect Shamoun and Qureish because they are liars. Qureish Nabeel especially.
correction
I said
I am wrong by saying this;
God, as Paul Williams said will not be kind to someone who publicly ridicule Him as in the Christian, Jewish and Muslim tradition.
Instead, I wanted to say this;
Paul Williams
March 4, 2016 • 3:58 pm
God has His rights too and takes our religious obligations to Him with the utmost seriousness. He has ordained that once someone converts to Islam it is not permitted to leave the faith publicly and disrupt the community. The public denial of God’s will and decrees in an Islamic society is a grave offence.
There is a similar understanding in the Bible and the historical Christian tradition.
Thanks.
LikeLike
“There is a similar understanding in the Bible and the historical Christian tradition.”
Traditions have to be judged by the scriptures.
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madmanna
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
2 Chronicles 15:13 “All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.”
“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.‘
Deuteronomy 17:3-5 “And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, …..and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die.”
madmanna, I have more apostasy verses from both old and new testaments.
Thanks.
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Paul,
Do you support the punishment of Ashraf Fayadh?
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/free-ashraf-fayadh-saudi-arabia-palestinian-poetry-apostasy-execution
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I do not know the full facts, so I don’t know. But most importantly I’m not a Qadi or expert in shariah law. All this is way above my pay grade.
Just to ask you a few questions:
1) do you believe in God?
2) if yes, in your understanding of God how is apostasy understood?
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Andy
Do you support Calvin ordering the Killing of Michael because he rejects Trinity?
Do you support the Catholics killing the protestant Christians?
Do you support the Protestant Christians Killing Catholic Christians in the USA?
Do you support the force conversion of Muslim slaves from Africa by the Christians slave Masters? that makes almost all Africa American Christians after slavery? But now of course some African Americans are trying to convert from Christianity.
We are not in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia arbitrary use both Western and Islamic laws for its political agenda. Islamic law did not tell Saudi Arabian rulers refuse women to drive. Our prophet wives has been business women and Ayisha (RA) was reported riding a Camel by herself.
Thanks.
LikeLike
@Intellect,
you quoted a parable from Luke 19: Luke 19:27
New International Version
“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.”
Let’s leave the parable in the context in which Jesus placed it.
“The Parable of the Ten Minas
(Matthew 25:14-30)
11And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.”
Jesus is telling us in a parable what he will do at his second coming when he comes to judge the world.
It is a picture of the final judgement portrayed using a scene taken from life during his time. It is not a literal description of what will happen at his return.
The parable itself determines how it should be interpreted.
Parables can not be used to create laws but only to illustrate them.
“madmanna, I have more apostasy verses from both old and new testaments.”
I reply:
Under the new covenant form of the kingdom there are no violent criminal punishments applied to the believer.
Islam projects it’s followers in to a covenant form which no longer exists. It does this so it can misuse the laws of this abrogated covenant for political purposes. It’s a make-believe world that does not exist except in the pages of islamic scriptures. Unfortunately for the rest of us.
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‘Under the new covenant form of the kingdom there are no violent criminal punishments applied to the believer.’
Really? Tell that to Luther, Calvin and the other reformers who ALL believed in capital punishment for apostasy, murder etc.
Or do you know Christianity better than they do?
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To clarify I was only referring to practices pertaining to worship and belief. Not to immoral acts in general.
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are you aware of the Reformers views on apostasy Madman? I don’t think you are.
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The state would be responsible to punish murder, adultery etc. Under the new covenant this is no longer the responsibility of the church.
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The Reformers certainly believed that apostasy was punishable by death. Don’t you know your history?
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I am not familiar with the reformers views on apostasy, no. Do I need to be?
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Yes. I thought you were a Calvinist or Lutheran?
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Did the reformers have any choice at that time anyway? The princes or rulers determined the religion of their subjects at that time as far as I know.
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Calvin had a choice: he called for the execution of Michael Servetus and asked for the opinions of all the Reformers in Europe about the right punishment. They all agreed to have him executed for heresy.
You disagree?
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Yes, I disagree. The NT punishment for apostasy is anathema. That is the limit of church discipline according to the NT.
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where in the NT does it say that the limit for apostasy punishment is anathema? I am not familiar with any such limitation.
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madmanna
A parable to kill is Good? Only an Islamophobe like you who will see any “combat them if they fight you” in the Quran and swear that Quran is bad, but when you see kill, stone to death, execute etc. in both the New and Old Testament, you turn a blind eye on them and claim they are parable.
Well a parable to execute is still cruel, barbaric and inhume. That is what the Christian crusaders used to kill and force convert other.
How many times have we explained to you that the verses in the Quran is for self defence? madmanna, shame on you to bring a “parable” card to us but reject our self defence explanations.
I see how you tried to explain things to us but there are more verses in the NT and OT that clearly states people be killed if they do not listen to Jesus or the God of the Bible.
A parable to kill is just like a law to kill. Why must you condemn the Quran and defend your parable to kill? shame on you madmanna, you make me sick honestly.
par·a·ble
/ˈperəb(ə)l/
noun
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
synonyms: allegory, moral story/tale, fable, exemplum
“the parable of the prodigal son”
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=sJbbVse7McmC8QfCn4awBQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+parable
A spiritual lesson to kill is very, very dangerous to lead those seeking spirituality and follow that parable and kill people who do not believe them like Calvin killing Michael, protestants and Catholics killing each other.
Thanks.
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madmanna
You said;
I reply:
Under the new covenant form of the kingdom there are no violent criminal punishments applied to the believer.
Islam projects it’s followers in to a covenant form which no longer exists. It does this so it can misuse the laws of this abrogated covenant for political purposes. It’s a make-believe world that does not exist except in the pages of islamic scriptures. Unfortunately for the rest of us.
I say;
Any religion like your Christian new covenant that form a kingdom that has no criminal punishment to allow rapists to continue to rape, murderers continue to murder, robbers continue to rob etc. without punishment is a new covenant from satan but not from God.
Under the old covenant, Jesus as God ordered killings anyway. In the new covenant Jesus ordered killings and there are so many in the NT but you turned a blind eye on them then insult the Quran. Independent studies shows the NT violence alone or the OT violence alone is more the Quran.
Thanks.
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madmanna
You said;
Parables can not be used to create laws but only to illustrate them
I say;
What is illustrate then?
You see. A Christian will criticize you. If you criticize a Christian on worse thing that can be found in his(Christian) scripture, then he(Christian) will use all sorts of lies including changing of words to make his worse killing verses looks better.
If I say the verses in the Quran ILLUSTRATES how to kill, madmanna, would you not say the Quran is bad by illustrating how to kill? Parable can be used to illustrate laws is what you said and the parables are killings and so the parable is used to illustrate killings.
il·lus·trate
/ˈiləˌstrāt/
verb
provide (a book, newspaper, etc.) with pictures.
“the guide is illustrated with full-color photographs”
synonyms: decorate, adorn, ornament, accompany, embellish; add pictures/drawings to, provide artwork for
“the photographs that illustrate the book”
•with illustrations, with pictures, with drawings, pictorial
“an illustrated collection of poems”
•explain or make (something) clear by using examples, charts, pictures, etc.
“the results are illustrated in Figure 7”
synonyms: explain, explicate, elucidate, clarify, make plain, demonstrate, show, emphasize; informalget across
“this can be illustrated through a brief example”
•serve as an example of.
“a collection of pieces that illustrate Bach’s techniques”
synonyms: exemplify, typify, epitomize, show, demonstrate, display, represent, encapsulate
“his sense of humor was illustrated by his screen saver”
Source of dictionary;
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=hV_cVvGaEqOC8Qf33ZbAAw&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+illustrate
Thanks.
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“Any religion like your Christian new covenant that form a kingdom that has no criminal punishment to allow rapists to continue to rape, murderers continue to murder, robbers continue to rob etc. without punishment is a new covenant from satan but not from God.”
If Islam implements the law of Moses without the apostasy and temple laws that would be fine by me. Go ahead.
Does Sharia actually outlaw rape, murder and robbery? I don’t believe so. Obviously you do.
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As far as I know all secular governments of all countries have criminal punishments for rape, murder and robbery.
I don’t know of any Christians who don’t support these laws.
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I know of many Christians who do not support the capital punishments imposed by the secular states (eg USA & China) for murder. The Pope would be the most famous example.
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The death penalty has largely been abolished in European countries.
Also, I know some Christians who DON’T support capital punishment for any crime.
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madmanna
You said;
As far as I know all secular governments of all countries have criminal punishments for rape, murder and robbery.
I don’t know of any Christians who don’t support these laws.
I say;
The Church which controls the West before the secular governments which was formed by force against the Church , used to implement their law based on Christianity.
Apostates are killed. Other religions are prohibited by the West and that is why there was no single Muslim in Europe when it was controlled by the Pope. Freedom of religion is achieved when the Pope was defeated by the liberals and the power of the Church reduced.
Under Athanasius, Constance etc. and to some extent Constantine etc. people are persecuted by dissenting the with the Christian faith that is strong.
Catholics persecuted protestants when they were strong and vice versa. Christians persecuted Muslims and Jews in Spain. You madmanna do not know Christianity better than all these.
You said;
Does Sharia actually outlaw rape, murder and robbery? I don’t believe so. Obviously you do.
I say;
Allah says in the Qur’an, (And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way) (Al-Isra’ 17: 32).
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise” (Al-Bukhari).
“An adulterer is not a believer at the time of committing adultery.” (Bukhari and Muslim)
Robbery, murder and all social vices are prohibited by Islam.
Thanks.
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Intellect,
Nice reply to madmanna. Time after time, he is being refuted for his inaccurate statements against Islam. For a guy who runs a blog purporting to discuss the “hammer of Islam” versus the “anvil of Christianity”, he is very ignorant about what Islam teaches. Why are there so many ignorant people with opinions about Islam, but who have not spent much time doing scholarly research on it? I have no idea…
Madmanna, since you don’t know much about Islam, maybe you shouldn’t be making blanket statements about Islam? That’s good advice.
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Faiz
A couple of weeks ago madmanna accepted and agreed with me that; If God is one, only and alone and possess His attributes, then NO ONE IS GOD and therefore the Father alone is God. Ken Temple also agreed with me that the Son do not possess all the attributes of the Father. madmanna agreed and even will not support God being generated and so the Son who is generated is not God.
I thought madmanna has seen the truth and picked the truth up but he is still repeating his refuted attacks on Islam I hope and pray Allah to open madmanna’s heart to take the truth that he has seen and to all of us to pick a truth if we see it.
Thanks.
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Paul,
Answering your question of 5th March, I consider myself to be agnostic regarding the existence or non existence of a supreme creator. I note that the arguments for and against are made by seemingly very bright people (way beyond my pay grade!) with no convincing resolution either way.
I’ve read with interest the discussions between Madmanna, Intellect and Faiz, and note that their way of reasoning (and yours) appears to be based on consulting various ancient texts, and anecdotes from history then indulging in a quotefest which to my secular eyes seems to get precisely nowhere.
I start from the observation that we live in a world containing many belief systems. History shows us that this situation can lead either to bloody conflict, or mutual respect and coexistence. Assuming we prefer the latter what characteristics of a belief system promote this?
From my perspective it is a simple logical truism that not all belief systems can be “true” (whatever that means), so any belief system that restricts its members’ rights to question it, and possible leave it, runs the risk of contributing towards the undesirable state of conflict.
Punishment for apostasy can be understood as a feature of states where religious belief is strongly associated with nationhood (or other types of community), so it becomes synonymous with treason. In many parts of the world religious freedom obtains, detaching religion from the state, so apostasy becomes meaningless and indeed, repugnant to secularists.
Islam is not my religion, so all I can say is that my hope for Muslims is that in time, the scholars and schools of law will positively abrogate previous rulings on apostasy in favour of something like Article 18 of the Universal declaration of Human Rights .
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Muslim convert Charles Gai Eaton wrote an article about Muslims living in the West. Here is a brief extract:
‘Certainly, change is inherent in history, and, had Islam remained to this day the dominant world force that it once was, the life of the Muslim in the 15th century Hijrah would have been very different to the life he lived in the 5th century, let alone in the lst. But he would still have lived within a setting, a framework, molded by the spirit of Islam and by the practical requirements of the religion. Change would have taken place within the bounds set by the Qur’an and the Sunnah. The Muslim would still have felt at home in his world.
He is not and cannot be at home in the world as it is today. In the first place, the ground rules have been laid down in terms of beliefs and ideologies entirely alien to Islam. Take as only one example the Charter of the United Nations and the structure of International Law (in so far as such Law may be said to exist). The main provisions of that Charter may be acceptable to us in a general way, but this is coincidental. Not one paragraph, not even one sentence in any paragraph of the Charter is of Islamic origin or could be said to have been inspired by the Islamic ethos. The same, of course, is true of the conditions governing international trade and banking; it is true also of the educational system, especially at university level as it exists in almost every Muslim country. We have had no say in the making of the contemporary world — modern “civilization” — and we are obliged to fit into it as best we can, often as “square pegs in round holes”; an uncomfortable position, and one that might be said to emasculate us, robbing us of that self-confidence which I suggested, in my first talk, is of such profound importance.’
http://www.zawiyah.org.za/eaton2.htm
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As far as I understand, Christianity develops over time as we gain a better understanding of God. So whilst the reformers might have been in favour of capital punishment most Christians today aren’t.
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