Alsalam,
Of course, Br, Hamza is a respected scholar in Islam , and his lecture is very reasonable. However, I’ve noticed that western muslims desperately try to change some of the major concepts in Islam just because they don’t fit with standards of western countries which have been shaped just recently after they had conquered most world by force spreading their values and laying their hands on the most significant sources that flourish their economy. No! we don’t need to do that at all.
Moreover, in light of what Hamza said, how can you reconcile Jihad of early muslims to india and spain?
I agree that Jihad is something goes under fiqh requiring his own terms and conditions, but in the same time I don’t agree that we should denounce it by some way or another just because western people don’t like it.
Christians and jews wouldn’t satisfy untill we follow their religion. Religion in Arabic means (path).
Quran has said that already to warn us.
If extremists have been misusing the text of Quran and Sunnah, the solution is not by misusing the same text to conclude the opposite.
I have been ordered to fight against the people until they testify that there is no one worthy of worship but Allâh and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh and until they perform the Prayers and pay the Zakãh, and if they do so they will have gained protection from me for their lives and property, unless [they do acts that are punishable] in accordance with Islãm, and their reckoning will be with Allâh Most High. [Bukhari, Muslim]
Shaykh Ahmed Ibn Taymiyyah says:“It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.” (Majmu` al-Fatawa 19/20)
Islam never considers war as holy:
Fighting is allowed in Islam only as a last resort, as a necessary evil, not as something holy. The Qur’an says what means:To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to fight], because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid… (Al-Hajj 22:39).
Islam which restricts fighting to only against those who fight you and to not be aggressive–(Qur’an 2:190); to fight only until there is no persecution and that all religions are for Allah–(Qur’an 8:39)
Islam is dedicated to peace even in the face of possible deception by the enemy: “And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it… And if they intend to deceive, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee;” “So if they withdraw from you and fight you not and offer you peace, then Allah allows you no way against them”–(Qur’an 8:61-62; 4:90).
Wanna also leave some comments (btw Abdullah’s post just doesn’t make sense), anyway:
From Jonathan’s last book:
The Qur’anic edict of ‘No compulsion in religion’ governed the interpretation of Hadiths like the authenticated report of the Prophet declaring, ‘I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, establish prayer and pay the charity tithe.’ Read in light of the Qur’anic prohibition on coerced belief, this mission to extract confessions of belief was not interpreted literally. Rather, it was understood as referring either only to Arabia’s pagans (not followers of monotheistic religions) or as a metaphor for the conquered non-Muslims agreeing to submit to Muslim rule.
Jonathan A.C. Brown, Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet’s Legacy, p. 102.
___________________
From Ahmed al-Dawoody’s Ph.d thesis on war in Islam:
The hadīth narrated by Abū Hurayrah in which the Prophet says, “I have been ordered to fight against the people [emphasis added] until they say: There is no God but God,”[56] refers only to the Arab idolaters, according to “the majority of the Muslims,”[57] including the Hanafīs and Ibn Hanbal, while for the Mālikīs, it refers only to the tribe of Quraysh.[58] […] More importantly, this hadīth means, as Ibn Taymiyyah explains it, that if non-Muslim enemy combatants during the conduct of war accept Islam, the war must cease, but this does not mean that all people have to be fought until they accept Islam.[60]
[56] : Ḥadīths numbers 1335, 2786, 6526, and 6855 in al-Bukhārī, Al-Jāmi‛ al-Ṣahīh al-Mukhtaṣar, Vol. 1, p. 507, Vol. 3, p. 1077, Vol. 6, pp. 2538, 2657. See also al-Bukhārī, The Translation of the Meanings of Ṣahih al-Bukhārī, Vol. IV, p. 124.
[57] : Shalabī, Al-Jihād wa al-Nuẓum al-‛Askariyyah, pp. 61 f.; al-Zuhaylī, Al-‛Alāqāt al-Dawliyyah, p. 97. See also Peters, “Djihad,” p. 287; Mir, “Islam, Qur’anic,” p. 209.
[58] : Al-Shaybānī, Al-Siyar, p. 222; Ibn Qudāmah, Al-Mughnī, Vol. 9, p. 173; al-Māwardī, Al-Ḥāwī, Vol. 14, p. 153; al-Nawawī, Al-Majmū‛, Vol. 21, pp. 45–47; Peters, Islam and Colonialism, p. 36; al-Qaraḍāwī, Fiqh al-Jihād, Vol. 1, p. 328.
[60] : Ibn Taymiyyah, Qā‛idah Mukhtaṣarah fī Qitāl al-Kuffār, pp. 95 f.; al-Zuhaylī, Āthār al-Ḥarb fī al-Islām, p. 107; Zahrān, Al-Silm wa al-Ḥarb, p. 42; Darwazah, Al-Jihād fī Sabīl Allah, p. 72; Āl Mahmūd, Al-Jihād al-Mashrū‛, p. 32; al-Qāsimī, Al-Jihād wa al-Ḥuqūq al-Dawliyyah, p. 167; al-Ghunaimi, Qānūn al-Salām fī al-Islām, p. 57; ‛Afīfī, Al-Mujtama‛ al-Islāmī, p. 151; Ṭabliyyah, Al-Islām wa Ḥuqūq al-Insān, p. 74; al-Qaraḍāwī, Fiqh al-Jihād, Vol. 1, pp. 335–337.
Ahmed Al-Dawoody – The Islamic Law of War: Justifications and Regulations – p.79.
_________________________
From the letter to baghdadi . com :
The Goal of Jihad: Scholars are in agreement regarding the goal of jihad, because God says: ‘Fight them till there is no sedition, and the religion isfor God; then if they desist, there shall be no enmity, save against evildoers.’(Al-Baqarah, 2: 193). The Prophet further said: ‘I have been ordered tofight people until they say: “There is no god but God”, so whoever says: “There is no god but God” is safe in himself and his wealth except as permitted bylaw, and his reckoning is with God.’ This is the goal of jihad once war hasbeen waged on Muslims. These texts specify what victory looks like inthe case that Muslims are victorious, and that the reason for jihad must not be confused with the goal of jihad; all scholars are in agreement onthis matter.
—————————-
And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
— Quran 10:99
I appreciate what this Hamza guy is trying to do but I have to say that any god that cannot get his message across to the most simplistic thinkers amongst us is almost certainly a fantasy.
Do you guys really believe that this extremely important grammatical distinction of whether the passage in question is singular or plural is so hard to convey to human minds that your god needs an elitist body of experts to convey the message for him? Why can the god of Islam not convey this most simple of concepts to the common man – is it really so hard to convey the few possible contexts of the word “you” to people?
Surely some of you have wondered why your god seems to have such difficulty with a simple grammar problem? What Hamza is saying is that all those poor, innocent folks who died from Islamic religious extremism have done so because your god was not able to make a simple definitive declaration of what he meant by the word “you” in its various contexts – that tells me that Islam does not need “experts” it needs an objective, common sense re-evaluation of the idea that you worship a being that can’t make himself easily understood on such a hugely significant issue.
What you will find iğs that such a god is unlikely to exist and is merely the imaginings of an ignorant tribal culture.
You said;
Surely some of you have wondered why your god seems to have such difficulty with a simple grammar problem? What Hamza is saying is that all those poor, innocent folks who died from Islamic religious extremism have done so because your god was not able to make a simple definitive declaration of what he meant by the word “you” in its various contexts – that tells me that Islam does not need “experts” it needs an objective, common sense re-evaluation of the idea that you worship a being that can’t make himself easily understood on such a hugely significant issue.
I say;
Every religion including Atheist has misunderstanding no matter how clear a verse is and how it is intended, people will twist it to their whims and caprice.
In Islam, when a verse is revealed, the reason why it is revealed is said by the prophet. Arabic grammar is very complex and that is what the Sheikh is saying without knowing Arabic very well especially, the classical Arabic, you are not qualified to interpret the Quran.
Tafsir, the interpretation of the Quran was started by our prophet, then followed by his wives and disciples, to their disciples to their disciples and the cycle continuous till today. Because the Arabic grammar is complex as Mark Hanson is saying.
Mark Hanson and all Muslim scholars are the products of Islamic Education and also they travelled to learn Islam from disciples after disciples who got interpretations from their teachers and the cycle goes back to our prophet.
On the Christian side, their God could not even be clear who he was and that has led to continuous blood shed since Christianity was created till today. All these isis was created by Christian war into the Muslim lands which was peaceful with Christian vice presidents i.e. Tariq Aziz and the rest.
Who God is, is very clear in the Quran and no disagreement about that but The Christian God has disagreement from Christians who that God is. Based on your thinking, Christian God is not God because he did not make himself clear for anyone to know.
Islamic God is clear that He is Only 1 divine being and He is Alone and No one else. I know this can be found in the Bible but some people say He is 3 persons in 1 being that cannot be found in the Bible and that has led to continuous blood shed from the inception of Christianity till today.
Those who have the believe of 3 persons 1 God are always the aggressors to all people they think they are trying to save by any means possible and that has resulted into wars, calamites, etc.
Yes, Arabic grammar is complex but we have tafsir from our prophet which has been passed on to his disciples to their disciples till today, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and most Islamic Scholars are interpreting it how our prophet intended for it to be interpreted.
There are evil people like Nabeel Quraish who has no qualification in Islam and those scholars who want to use the verses for their whims and caprice and the Belgium boys who did not go to Islamic school but smoking drugs in Night Clubs who twist the Quran to cause harm.
It is happening in Christian world as well. Christianity was brutal than this until the liberals over power them and slapped freedom of religion on them.
@John It’s not a Qur’anic verse, it’s a hadith! One does not need to delve into any grammatical analysis to understand its meaning, just recalling the mere fact that non-combatant aren’t to be fought (if the casus belli of war in Islam was unbelief itself, then killing non-combatants would have been lawful, but it is not), and recalling what the Qur’an says in multiple passages,
—————————-
There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become
distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in God
has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. God is
all hearing and all knowing
— Quran 2:256
—————————-
Say, ‘Now the truth has come
from your Lord: let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let
those who wish to reject it do so.’ We have prepared a Fire for the
wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for
relief, they will be relieved with water like molten metal, scalding
their faces. What a terrible drink! What a painful resting place!
— Quran 18:29
—————————-
And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
— Quran 10:99
—————————-
Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them;
— Quran 88:21-22
—————————-
He said: “O my people! See ye if (it be that) I have a Clear Sign from my Lord, and that He hath sent Mercy unto me from His own presence, but that the Mercy hath been obscured from your sight? shall we compel you to accept it when ye are averse to it?
— Quran 11:28
Johnnie, Johnnie, I guess your butt continues to hurt.
It really doesn’t take a genius to understand that people are the problem, not God or the Quran. People can misinterpret the rules, either by mistake or deliberately to suit their own agendas. It’s not a surprise that ignorant extremists, both Muslim and non-Muslims, are the ones misinterpreting the Quran. People of knowledge, however, know better.
That’s pretty obtuse and not the kind of well thought out and measured response I’ve come to expect from you.
People aren’t the problem – your god is the problem. Why can’t he convey a simple grammatical point directly to his followers without needing the help of “experts” with years of study in dogma and myth? It’s not a hard thing to do especially if you are all powerful.
that litt’ guy
“John It’s not a Qur’anic verse, it’s a hadith! One does not need to delve into any grammatical analysis to understand its meaning”
The hadith records a command given, presumably, by your guys’ god, so it is still his word, right? Somehow, the definitive meaning was not conveyed properly or conveyed so ineffectively such that only people who speak a dead language and study for years are able to grasp its meaning. That is just poor communication.
Intellect
“Every religion including Atheist has misunderstanding no matter how clear a verse is and how it is intended, people will twist it to their whims and caprice.”
Hamza says that the verse is not clear unless you undergo years of training – I think that is a silly notion given that it is supposed to be an all powerful being who is sending the message. Yet, this entity can’t give a command that can be straightforwardly interpreted or understood.
Given this ridiculous fact that an all powerful god can’t make himself understood clearly and easily, then it seems more reasonable to think that if such a being exists, this verse did not come from it. Alternatively, it is even more reasonable to think that your god doesn’t actually exist and this verse – and perhaps the whole religion – is made up by people who could not communicate simple grammatical points clearly.
You are assuming that you are a perfect human being and your comments here shows that you have a biased mind towards Islam. No matter how Islam is explained to you, you bias is stronger than that.
Ok. lets go. It is clearly you have an uncontrollable bias as a human being and you are so fixed on your bias and it makes you think based on your bias.
Yes, we all have bias but good reasoning and open mindedness help us all to come out from our bias to take a good alternate.
That is the problem we have, because people like you will take scripture and put their own bias to it to act for their whims.
Yesterday, Donald Trump used his bias for becoming a president to flip flop on punishing a woman for abortion. When the heat gathers on him his campaign quickly issued a statement to say a woman should not be punished for abortion.
He is bias towards becoming a president so he can do anything. The same goes to you and those interpreting scriptures to cause harm to others. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus etc. are using scriptures to harm others right now.
Those who do not believe in any scripture are also using their bias to harm others but reasoning is the best thing to do.
In Islam, we believe God has given us reason and God has made it clear who he is and every thing is clear in the Quran if you know the language and sincere.
Of course you have to know the language of the Quran to know Quran. All our Islamic teachers teach us with Arabic and not any language and most Muslims know how to recite in Arabic and know the meaning from Arabic.
God has made his scripture clear to us but we still need to put our bias aside to get the clarity with all tools available i.e. learning the religion, its language and tafsir.
God revealed scriptures in different languages and people used their bias on all of them, so it is not God but man as you are using your bias.
God cannot be seen for now, so he can send his message to us through some medium and the language is clear but you need to learn it. He used different languages but we have problem with all.
The Quran is clear, “Do not harm anyone, until he is coming to harm you”. If anyone cannot learn the others his common sense must tell him he should not do to others what they do not want them do to him. The others are clear anyway but you need to learn the language and know the tafsir.
I’m not biased at all – criticizing your god and his vague commands is not biased.
“In Islam, we believe God has given us reason and God has made it clear who he is and every thing is clear in the Quran if you know the language and sincere.”
Well, this just shows your confusion – the quran is not clear is it, you said as much a couple of posts back. You need the tafsir to make sense of the quran. The problem is that some of the tafsirs were compiled decades even centuries after the 7th century. Ibn Kathir’s tafsir was compiled 6th centuries after the supposed revelations – there is no reason to trust it any more than you can trust Imam Joe Abdullah Shmoe whose personal opinion leads to killing.
Such a vague god cannot really exist, a god who supposedly sustains every minute second of creation in real time yet who cannot reveal his word without it needing the input of some dudes later on, is probably just made up.
You said;
Well, this just shows your confusion – the quran is not clear is it, you said as much a couple of posts back. You need the tafsir to make sense of the quran. The problem is that some of the tafsirs were compiled decades even centuries after the 7th century. Ibn Kathir’s tafsir was compiled 6th centuries after the supposed revelations – there is no reason to trust it any more than you can trust Imam Joe Abdullah Shmoe whose personal opinion leads to killing.
I say;
You re wrong. The tafsir are there with people but was COMPILED, COMPILED, COMPILED later. All scholars have the tafsir by learning from the disciples who learn from the disciples tracing back to our prophet. Will there be some mistakes yes and that is where the Quran says we must use our common sense.
It is not sensible to go and kill people but it is sensible to stay in peace with your neighbours but if they are coming to attack you, then defend yourself.
That is all the Quran narrative. We do not follow the personal opinion of anyone but the tafsir of our prophet and common sense. Of course, some people have their freewill to follow their bias like you are doing here and they will twist the scriptures be it Quran, Bible, Torah, Buddhist scripture, Hindus scripture to kill other people.
The Buddhist are massacring minority Muslims in Myanmar right now, Some Hindus are killing Muslims in India but thank God the Muslim population in India is high and they fight back, they would have been exterminated.
You keep blaming Muslim God alone and that makes you a hypocrite. Radovon Karadzic, a Bosnian Christian was sentenced a couple of days ago for genocide against Muslims. He and his Christian bandits killed thousands of Muslims for ethnic cleansing and there are horrible Biblical verses that says children must be killed and some Christians are using it today.
You are silent about that and it makes you a big hypocrite. It is man who uses his bias to kill not God scripture. YES, ONE HAS TO LEARN A LANGUANGE IN WHICH A SCRIPTURE IS REVEALED TO BE PERFECT IN ITS ITERPRETATION. Fortunately, Muslims have Islamic schools in all Muslim communities all over the world who teach in Arabic, write in Arabic and talk Quran, tafsir etc. in Arabic like how our prophet did.
We do understand our Quran and Islam, but people can use their bias to twist it for their whims.
“The tafsir are there with people but was COMPILED, COMPILED, COMPILED later. ”
That is almost a picture perfect example of historical unreliability – the further removed in time an account is from an event, the less likely it is to be true.
“YES, ONE HAS TO LEARN A LANGUANGE IN WHICH A SCRIPTURE IS REVEALED TO BE PERFECT IN ITS ITERPRETATION.”
Which language is that though? The earliest quranic manuscripts we have use the hijazi script which predates Islam, and not classical arabic which evolved later. So there is even doubt which language the quran was “revealed” in.
You said;
Which language is that though? The earliest quranic manuscripts we have use the hijazi script which predates Islam, and not classical arabic which evolved later. So there is even doubt which language the quran was “revealed” in.
I say;
Are you a classical Arabic scholar? Where is your credential? to tell us what script is good for our religion. You blame us for learning from scholars but you now want us to learn from you about script which you have no knowledge of. That is a lie. Jay Smith started this lies of hijazi script and you are following him to discredit Islam. THAT IS A LIE.
You said;
That is almost a picture perfect example of historical unreliability – the further removed in time an account is from an event, the less likely it is to be true.
“YES, ONE HAS TO LEARN A LANGUANGE IN WHICH A SCRIPTURE IS REVEALED TO BE PERFECT IN ITS ITERPRETATION.”
I say;
You do not know Islam. When our prophet taught his disciples, they wrote and memorised as much as they could. Islamic tradition started from, learning, memorization, written, oral, scholars etc. in Arabic language that the scripture was revealed.
Quran means recitation and so the angel command our prophet to recite and the recitation continue till today when people continue to memorise the Quran and other literature to augment the written.
A living proof: This guy has memorised the Quran and some hadith and fluent in classical Arabic and he like most scholars agreed with Hamza Yusuf in classical interpretation of the Quran as we were taught in Islamic schools.
“The earliest quranic manuscripts we have use the hijazi script which predates Islam, and not classical arabic which evolved later. So there is even doubt which language the quran was “revealed” in.”
what kind of bull shit is this? are you conflating script with language?
Johnnie, you are an embarrassment. Once again, you have shown what an ignorant buffoon you are. Hijazi is a script, a writing style. Arabic is a language. There is a big difference. Moreover, there is nothing strange in the use of the Hijazi script in Quranic manuscripts.
Let me guess. You did a Google search to pretend to be someone who has done some research. Right? Is your butt still hurting? 😉
You are so desperate to discredit Islam including lies. robert2016 has quickly detected your lies and deceptions as Christian missionaries always do. Jay Smith is a classical example who mix script and language to deceive people and you are learning from him.
You see how we Muslims understands our religion? You see how we use our common sense as the Quran advised us to do? We do not depend on scholars but use our common sense. I was telling you this.
You have exposed your self as a liar and must apologise to Islam that you keep falsely accusing including anyone who is a Muslim.
That sounds like equivocation to me. CLassical arabic has its own script – that most modern day arabs cannot comprehend. If that was not the case, then Hamza would not have to claim that you need to specifically learn classical arabic to understand and interpret the quran. The hijazi script is not classical arabic, but the earliest qurans are not “revealed in your god’s own language.
Intellect
“Are you a classical Arabic scholar? Where is your credential? to tell us what script is good for our religion. You blame us for learning from scholars but you now want us to learn from you about script which you have no knowledge of.”
I believe that words can carry meanings that can be comprehensible to a vast assortment of people. Human languages can easily be misunderstood – but they are human languages. You claim that the word of god is clearly understood because it comes from your god – yet, clearly, it is not clear otherwise you would not need to undergo years of special training in a dead language to be able to make sense of it. Anybody should be able to pick up your scriptures and comprehend them.
Since we both acknowledge that this is not the case, your religious scriptures cannot be said to be objective truths. If it was objective information being conveyed, then it should have no possibility of misinterpretation.
Let me ask you guys something – do you believe that your god once brought a dead body back to life by having the jews hit the corpse with a piece of beef, and do you seriously believe that your god would send a special revelation to tell visitors to the prophets house not to be late and not to stay too long?
“Hijazi is a script, a writing style. Arabic is a language.”
I don’t claim to be a scholar of arabic, but I don’t believe that simple grammatical ideas cannot be easily transmitted from an all powerful deity to a human being. You guys are saying that you need years of training to truly understand a simple message – only attack those who attack you.
There’s nothing difficult about that, why couldn’t your god get such a straight forward message across without making people jump through hoops? Could it be that the vagueness is due to the fact that the “revelation” does not come from an all powerful deity, but rather from the mind of men whose language is not perfectly transmitted?
“You see how we Muslims understands our religion? You see how we use our common sense as the Quran advised us to do? ”
Actually, you don’t use common sense – if you did you probably would not believe that your god exists. In fact, as you have admitted, common sense takes second place to deference to authority. No room for common sense there.
You said;
That sounds like equivocation to me. CLassical arabic has its own script – that most modern day arabs cannot comprehend. If that was not the case, then Hamza would not have to claim that you need to specifically learn classical arabic to understand and interpret the quran. The hijazi script is not classical arabic, but the earliest qurans are not “revealed in your god’s own language.
I say;
Where did you learn classical Arabic has its own script?
You said;
I believe that words can carry meanings that can be comprehensible to a vast assortment of people. Human languages can easily be misunderstood – but they are human languages. You claim that the word of god is clearly understood because it comes from your god – yet, clearly, it is not clear otherwise you would not need to undergo years of special training in a dead language to be able to make sense of it. Anybody should be able to pick up your scriptures and comprehend them.
I say;
It is clear in classical Arabic in which it is revealed, so one must learn classical Arabic to interpret it and our scholars are teaching us classical Arabic in our Islamic schools and we understand Islam based on the language in which it was revealed.
You said;
The hijazi script is not classical arabic, but the earliest qurans are not “revealed in your god’s own language.
I say;
God revealed his scriptures in various languages and not Arabic alone. Hebrew, Aramaic and or Greek, Pope and some Catholics uses Latin.
Do you insult those Christians learning Greek to understand their religion? Do you insult Jews and their Rabbis for learning Hebrew to understand their religion? Do you insult Pope and Catholics for speaking and learning Latin to understand their religion?
Do you call Catholics uncivilized? Because Catholics are learning and using dead language? Do you call Christians speaking in tongues as superstitious and uncivilised people?
Do you call miraculous Christians who use Jesus name to turn someone into a Dog on stage in a Christian Church as superstitious and uncivilized?
Do you call Christians who use the verses in the Holy Bible to dance with snakes and the rattle snake and black cobra keep biting and killing them? Do you call them fools, superstitious, uncivilized, barbaric and suicidal with a bad God?
An Arab Muslim is too wise and technological advanced to take the habitual dance with a poisonous snake to keep biting and killing him. This is done in the United States of America by White Evangelical Christians like you who thinks your race and religion is the only civilized, superior and technological advanced than anyone.
John
You have to guts to come on our blog to lie about our language, script and religion then insult us. Which Christian blog will tolerate this? Because we are tolerant we tolerate you to insult us and we take that opportunity to correct you and expose your lies.
Hijazi script is a language-What a lie by a Christian on an Islamic blog?
I pray you do not go to prison and get raped by inmates to get a mutilated anus.
“Do you insult those Christians learning Greek to understand their religion? Do you insult Jews and their Rabbis for learning Hebrew to understand their religion? Do you insult Pope and Catholics for speaking and learning Latin to understand their religion?”
I don’t agree that I have insulted anybody on this blog – the only person casting insults is robert2016. But you are wrong, I would certainly challenge these groups if they claimed that you had to study a dead language for years in order to understand their scriptures.
If what Hamza says is true, then that means the revelations of your god are intended for only a handful of people in the entire world because only those with access to years of higher education are able to understand your god’s word. That makes no sense to me.
“I pray you do not go to prison and get raped by inmates to get a mutilated anus.”
Me too – except I wouldn’t pray for it, I would use reason and a rational approach to my life to ensure that I stay clear of criminal activity.
You said;
I don’t agree that I have insulted anybody on this blog – the only person casting insults is robert2016. But you are wrong, I would certainly challenge these groups if they claimed that you had to study a dead language for years in order to understand their scriptures.
If what Hamza says is true, then that means the revelations of your god are intended for only a handful of people in the entire world because only those with access to years of higher education are able to understand your god’s word. That makes no sense to me.
I say;
No, the message is intended for all humanity because there are different languages and God has to choose only one to communicate with us. We do not see God, so he cannot come to all of us speaking our language. He used other languages as well but not Arabic alone.
Scholars started from our prophet to memorise, write, and pray with the revelation and it continues till today. So many people are not Arabs, despite the lies about Islam by media, people are still embracing it. That is the miracle. So the message is reaching people despite it is in Arabic.
I know all Islamic schools all over the world use Arabic to teach Islam, and a serious Muslim will always sends his children to Islamic school and we do understand our religion. Because of the way we understand our religion we can detect any lies against it like how we detected your untruth about Islam.
We are now getting somewhere. You have tone down your insults a little bit and that will benefit all of us to understand each other if even we do not agree.
Find the following what constitute a big insult from you to us and especially Arabs and Muslims
-They do not have architects and engineers to build skyscrapers except you alone and God provided the technology to you and your people alone and no one can have that technology.
-There are uncivilized things going on in the USA including gang raping a new prisoner to cause his anus to be mutilated but you do not call it uncivilized but call Sharia that is there to deter those actions as uncivilized.
-Right now people are using Bible verses to cause rattle snakes, black cobra to kill them and their family, you do not call their scripture as false and you do not call their God as false but you call our God as false for saying do not be an aggressor but defend yourself.
“Well besides referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant” and talking about people’s penises and rear-ends…”
Your god would be proud of your taqiyya dishonesty here Faiz – you are master at it!
Intellect
“No, the message is intended for all humanity because there are different languages and God has to choose only one to communicate with us. We do not see God, so he cannot come to all of us speaking our language. He used other languages as well but not Arabic alone.”
Uh-huh. But he supposedly left a book didn’t he? And only a select few – who happen to have been born into the right socio-economic class to be able to afford years and years of higher education – are able to learn enough to understand what on earth your poor communicator of a god was talking about.
Put it this way, your fantasy god’s supposed word is so obscure and hard to understand that hundreds of thousands of innocent muslim youths are easily mislead into believing that he wants them to kill other people and themselves in his name.
Your god is so weak that he cannot prevent his words from being misinterpreted and it takes a band of intrepid, special-ed “experts” to explain things that your god was unable to explain clearly himself?
If I explain things to you, you keep going circles. I said Islamic schools are more in every Muslim communities from the time of our prophet till today to teach us what God intends us to know and also the language for us to make our decision.
In most poor communities, Islamic education is free for the poor but the rich will pay for their kids. I am telling you this from experience. All Muslim communities have Islamic schools for their kids and some have memorized the whole Quran and understands it in Arabic.
We know what the Quran means. I mentioned that those people like Nabeel Quraish who learnt his Islam from David Wood who does not know the language or the Belgium terrorist who did not attend Islamic school but partying in a Night club and those who followed the radical(every religion has radicals) are few who are causing problem.
THE BIG PROBLEM IS THE WESTERN INTERFERENCE AND OCCUPATION OF THE ARAB LANDS AND CARPET BOMBING THEM THAT YOU CANNOT FIND IN YOU NEWS IS CAUSING THE PROBLEM.
Twenty years ago, John, no one hears of any your joining any terrorist group. The west created the terrorist so that they will kill Muslims and the west will have excuse to expands its war in the Islamic world to spread Christianity by force.
According to polls more evangelical Christians supports war on Iraq and you will see them preaching Christianity in refugee camps to younger children and women.
You said;
Your god is so weak that he cannot prevent his words from being misinterpreted and it takes a band of intrepid, special-ed “experts” to explain things that your god was unable to explain clearly himself?
And you worship this guy?
I say;
If you are sincere and generalize it and add Jesus as God to this I will be happy because people are using his name to rape people like Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Eddie Lee Long and people are using Jesus name to allow poisonous snake to kill them.
Why do you keep bringing up christianity? You do know I am an agnostic right?
Islam is independently and objectively nonsensical – regardless of the failings of other faiths. If your best defense is that other religions are stupid as well, then all that means is that you acknowledge your religion is silly and absurd but it doesn’t matter because so is everyone else’s.
John
No. I did not say other religions are stupid as well. That is typical of White Evangelical Christian like you. We have seen them here who claim not to be Christians because they know Christianity is independently and objectively nonsensical than Islam.
I SAID ALL RELIGION HAS PEOPLE WHO INTERPRETE THEIR SCRIPTURE TO THEIR WHIMS AND CAPRICE.
So the resort to lies like you to claim they are not Christians to get a free licence to insult Islam. You bring anything against Islam, as you admit is more nonsensical than Christianity as a Christian yourself, I will bring the comparison from Christianity.
Why is Islam nonsensical than other religions? This shows you are not an agnostic but White Evangelical Christian who thinks his religion is better than others. YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN. It show, you want to be insulting Islam and leave Christianity and that is a characteristic of a hypocrite.
JOHN, YOU ARE A WHITE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN ATTACKING ISLAM.
Hamza Yusuf is our teacher and so are all Islamic scholars. We learn from them and we know our religion. Just like some Christian will use their religion and scripture foolishly, some Muslims and all religion will use their religion foolishly.
Because you are White Evangelical Christian John, who hates Islam, you will to your God and say you are not a Christian and single our Muslims and Islam to Insult. When the worse side of Christianity is presented to you to attack, you said you are an agnostic.
True agnostics generalize their rejection of God to all religions and their God but not a wicked hypocrite White Evangelical Christian like you who will single out Muslims and Islam alone as your attacking target. It makes you a lying wicked White Evangelical Christian who deceives and attacks. You insult us, I will show you the worse insult in Christianity.
Christians who say God is 3 persons 1 being that cannot be found in their scriptures is ok with you.
“Because you are White Evangelical Christian John, who hates Islam, you will to your God and say you are not a Christian and single our Muslims and Islam to Insult.”
WTF??!!
No I am not. And I don’t hate Islam – I think it is a religious scam and patently the product of shrewd 7th century barbaric nomads who had little trouble convincing the 7th century ignoramuses around them that their fairy tales were real.
Modern people living in the west have no such excuses – they should know better.
John
Because you are a liar who is Evangelical Christian who hates Islam, I showed you the Modern people living in the west who uses their religion and scripture for excuses to kill themselves and others and you ignore that just to return insulting us. You wicked White Evangelical Christian. You wicked Islam and Muslim hater.
Really, John John? Taqiyya? That’s your defense? Do I really need to post the link to our “discussion” on Sharia law? Are you really going to make me do that?
Of course, you just proved me right anyway with your pathetic response to me and the reference to “your god” and “taqiyya”. I guess your butt continues to hurt from your humiliation on the other thread, huh? 😉
Brother Intellect, I agree that Johnnie is a sniveling little weasel who suffers from extreme cultural chauvinism but he is definitely not an evangelical Christian. He is an agnostic and a particular wicked one at that. He lies about Muslims and Islam with his pathetic Google searches, as do many Christians, but he is not one of them.
” Do I really need to post the link to our “discussion” on Sharia law? Are you really going to make me do that?”
Yes, please show me where I was “referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant” and talking about people’s penises and rear-ends.”
I said mutilating people was savage and barbaric, and (to sum up) that this punishment is the product of ignorant 7th century nomads who were clueless about the nuances of human psychology that lead to criminal activity. My taqiyya comment stands I’m afraid.
I did mention penises and rear ends but what’s wrong with that? Intellect talks about sore anuses all the time and he is even going to pray for mine. 😉
“He is an agnostic and a particular wicked one at that.”
Not wicked, just rational. But thanks for setting Intellect straight.
Intellect
“I showed you the Modern people living in the west who uses their religion and scripture for excuses to kill themselves and others and you ignore that just to return insulting us. ”
Like I said, showing me the failings of other religious believers does not disprove that your god is incapable of conveying a simple command.
I showed you evidences and corrections to your lies but you refuse to see. You talk about Arab people as uncivilized, do not know technology and barbaric using their religion. I proved White people are worse than you accuse Arabs and their religion but you single out Arabs and their religion makes you a religious bigot and a racist.
“I proved White people are worse than you accuse Arabs and their religion but you single out Arabs and their religion makes you a religious bigot and a racist.”
So now, you apparently don’t know the definition of the word “insult”. Referring to people’s private parts is generally seen as insulting (and childish) behavior. I noticed that brother Intellect only referred to your “anus” after your repeated references to “butthurt”. Shall we see the examples? Do you really want me to paste them here?
Also, referring to people as “ignorant” or “savage” or “barbaric” or “superstitious” while maintaining your own high view of yourself, is also considered insulting behavior. That is certainly not my idea of a “civilized” discussion. Apparently, it is to you.
Taqiyya? I see that the Google scholar in you is alive and well. LOL.
So you are back pedalling about linking to comments in which I supposedly made statements “referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant”” ?
Could it be that you know I said no such thing and that your taqiyya has been busted? You know well enough that I said no such thing. So why don’t taqiyya nonsense somewhere else? =)
“I noticed that brother Intellect only referred to your “anus” after your repeated references to “butthurt””
He was kind enough to pray for it too. A true brother if ever there was one!
Johnnie, Johnnie…Have you no concern for your dignity? Well, actually scratch that. You never had any dignity at all! LOL!!
Still yapping about “taqiyya”? I guess you haven’t figured it out. Your Googling of Islam has given you very little authentic knowledge. Rather, like most internet trolls, you have gorged on propaganda websites written by people who are just as ignorant as you. Your lazy research has led you to the laughable reference to “taqiyya”, whereas honest research would have led you in the opposite direction. Here is a good article refuting your utterly idiotic rants about “taqiyya”:
Now, as for your claim that you haven’t insulted anyone on this blog, I guess I am forced to provide specific examples to further expose you as the lying weasel that you are. Oh, I’m sorry. Was that an insult? 😉
March 28 – “That is incredibly dumb. Any rational person – inapplicable to yourself and Faiz – can read that I oppose the barbaric legal system you call sharia.”
Hmmm…”any rational person…inapplicable to yourself and Faiz…”, “barbaric legal system you call sharia…” Yep, nothing insulting there!
March 29 – “Think about this – if you can allow your brain to work without resorting to magical thinking – the Burj Khalifa is only affordable because of oil revenues. Oil has been in the ground throughout the middle east for millions of years and your god failed to reveal to his primitive 7th century followers that it was there, how to extract it, and what use it could be put to.”
Hmmm…Let’s see…”…allow your brain to work…”, “your god failed to reveal to his primitive followers…” Yep, nothing insulting there!
Another example from the same date – “Here’s my prediction; once the world moves past its reliance on oil – and that day is near – the Burj Khalifa will fall into ruin and the sharia nuts who think it proves Islam will be left standing around holding their dicks waiting for the next non-muslim invention to latch onto that they will then claim proves ISlam.”
And let’s not forget the numerous times you referred to people’s rear-ends. By the way, how is yours doing? It’s been taking quite a walloping the last several days… 😉
So you are admitting that I was never “referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant”” ?
But do you deny that if it wasn’t for disbelievers, Arabia would still be a largely underpopulated desert wasteland, devoid of electricity, tall buildings, and showers?
You said;
But do you deny that if it wasn’t for disbelievers, Arabia would still be a largely underpopulated desert wasteland, devoid of electricity, tall buildings, and showers?
I say;
I am not an Arab. The next time you insult Arabs I will insult you. I am avoiding to insult you back, just to keYou ep the conversation going but you keep repeating insulting particular group of people and that is not good please.
Who are disbelievers and believers? Not all Arabs believe in Islam. Do you insult them as technological backwards? Do you call an Arab Christian barbaric? Islam was not the only religion of Arabs and it was not the first religion of Arabs. Before Islam, Arabs were pagans, Christians, Jews and others. Why did their God not teach them how to build story buildings?
This is insults upon insults on Arabs and Muslims despite the refutations with good materials and research you keep repeating insults upon insults to Arabs. You think they are all Muslims. No. We have Christians Arabs as well, and do you call them uncivilized?
This is your last warning. If you insult Arabs or Muslim again, I will insult you back until Paul comes in. What nonsense is that? You keep referring to a group of people as uncivilized, barbaric, lack of technological advancement etc. despite good debate to proof it is not so.
Obviously you don’t know how to read. You also must really enjoy being humiliated. How’s your butt doing?
I showed what a liar you are and all you can manage in your defense is to keep asking the same question? Come now Johnnie! Try to have some dignity! LOL.
And I guess you don’t know that Arabia was a very advanced society for hundreds of years after the arrival of Islam while European society languished in the Dark Ages. And it was only with its contact with Islamic society that Europe began to claw its way out. Of course, it’s not surprising that you don’t know the history. After all, you are a lazy idiot. 😉
“Obviously you don’t know how to read. You also must really enjoy being humiliated. How’s your butt doing?”
Actually, I do know how to read and I have absolutely no sense of humiliation whatsoever – I don’t believe in superstitious nonsense that says there exists a god who is so poor at communication that he is incapable of making a clear statement to his followers about whom one can kill and when. You think such a being exists.
Thanks for inquiring about my butt – it is doing extremely well now that Intellect has been praying for my anus for the past couple of days.
LOL Johnnie, you have been refuted over and over again regarding your nonsense about the “grammar”. I know it’s hard to admit when you are wrong about something, but it’s time to grow up little John. I could care less what you believe in, you idiot. Your pathetic opinions are worthless. You can continue to babble nonsense all you want. No one will take you and your poor research seriously.
By the way, are you sure you don’t want to see a proctologist? I hear they can work wonders!
Also, you should know that reading is fundamental. Hooked On Phonics might work for you! 😉
“By the way, are you sure you don’t want to see a proctologist? I hear they can work wonders!”
Thanks for the suggestion but I’ll just stick to drinking the camel’s urine. But don’t you believe that praying to your fantasy god might help with my anus? 😉
Actually little John, it is a teaching of Muhammad (pbuh) that we should seek medical treatment since Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses. But you wouldn’t know that, would you? What with your butthurt… 😉
Pity we all had to wait centuries before science and reason of disbelievers gave us enough knowledge of the human body and its dysfunctions to finally have a medical profession that did not rely on camel piss, fly dunking, and cupping to cure us all.
“Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses.”
LOL!!! Really? Your god gave us the cure for cancer? Please tell……
It seems to me that he gave absolutely no worthwhile knowledge to fight even a common infection – even some “revelation” imparting the technology to design and build a MRI machine would have been good. X-rays? Did your god show us how to produce ’em? Anti-virals? No? Just camel piss and a whole lot of superstition?
Pity we all had to wait centuries before science and reason of disbelievers gave us enough knowledge of the human body and its dysfunctions to finally have a medical profession that did not rely on camel piss, fly dunking, and cupping to cure us all.
I say;
The question you would rather ask is why the disbelievers not know the science in those centuries? You presume the disbelievers never exists in those centuries. I do not want to put insults in my discussion unless someone insults me.
You deserve an insult to think the disbelievers do not exist in the 7th century to have science and reason to build tall buildings(skyscrapers), x-rays etc.
You ignorantly blamed the Arabs Muslim for not knowing the above and now you are admitting that the knowledge was not just there for anyone including the disbelievers. The Egyptians had the knowledge to build tall buildings for centuries before America was created.
So, God give knowledge to whom He wills and at a time He wants and not the time John, Dick and Harry wants Him to do.
You said;
“Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses.”
LOL!!! Really? Your god gave us the cure for cancer? Please tell……
It seems to me that he gave absolutely no worthwhile knowledge to fight even a common infection – even some “revelation” imparting the technology to design and build a MRI machine would have been good. X-rays? Did your god show us how to produce ’em? Anti-virals? No? Just camel piss and a whole lot of superstition?
I say;
It is obviously there are disbelievers in the 7th Century. Why did the disbelievers in the 7th century not build the x-rays and MRI in the 7? but waited for centuries for people to die before they build the x-ray and MRI?
“The question you would rather ask is why the disbelievers not know the science in those centuries? ”
Disbelievers were working on it – Muslims were drinking camel’s piss and dunking flies in their tea to ward off illness.
I think I asked the right questions – Faiz thinks that it is absolutely amazing that it was taught that we should all seek medical treatment. I think that is good when medical treatment is based on empirical sciences not on superstitions.
“t is obviously there are disbelievers in the 7th Century. Why did the disbelievers in the 7th century not build the x-rays and MRI in the 7? but waited for centuries for people to die before they build the x-ray and MRI?”
Why did your god wait centuries and allow people to die without providing the necessary scientific knowledge so that we could develop non-superstitious medicine? Your god is supposed to be all powerful – surely you cannot be faulting humans for not coming up with scientific advances that your god should have known and revealed?
Your god is obviously a figment of a primitive 7th century imagination.
You said;
Why did your god wait centuries and allow people to die without providing the necessary scientific knowledge so that we could develop non-superstitious medicine? Your god is supposed to be all powerful – surely you cannot be faulting humans for not coming up with scientific advances that your god should have known and revealed?
Your god is obviously a figment of a primitive 7th century imagination.
I say;
There were other Gods before 7th century. If you based your insults on only 7th century, I will also start using every profane words on you until the blog owner ban all of us. That is nonsense to select a group of people i.e. Arabs and Muslims and keep insulting them whereas in the United States of America, people are dancing with poisonous snakes and get bitten to death in the Name of their scripture which is 1st century and it predates 7th century.
The same United States of America allows loose laws that allow more gang rape either in prison or outside prison to mutilate the anuses of humans everyday. It’s laws is so loose that it allows sex, prostitution, adultery, Church fathers and pastors sleeping with children either males or females, prostitutes, child porn cheating on funds etc.
The same loose laws of the USA and western countries allows for much armed robbery, drug, gang members committing murder, homicide, suicide etc. I will keep repeating these and more if you dare insult Arabs and or Muslims.
If you are happy about the above happening to people everyday, we are not happy about that and Sharia, the God law is the only thing to reduce the above. Countries like South Korea which has capital punishment have reduced their crime rate to a minimum.
You said;
Why did your god wait centuries and allow people to die without providing the necessary scientific knowledge so that we could develop non-superstitious medicine? Your god is supposed to be all powerful – surely you cannot be faulting humans for not coming up with scientific advances that your god should have known and revealed?
Your god is obviously a figment of a primitive 7th century imagination.
I say;
The problem here is there were Gods before 7th century and you keep being racist and foolish to be only on Arabs, Islam and 7th century. It is insult to Arabs, Muslims and Christian Arabs and non religious Arabs. This is no joke it is insult to an ethnic group.
You blame the Arabs for living in deserts as uncivilized people with no technology at that time and blame their God for not giving them technology at that time.
Now you are saying even the disbelievers did not have technology at that time but have to wait for now to have x-rays and MRI. So it was not the Arabs and or Muslims that did not have technology at that time but everyone.
Among Arabs, there are disbelievers and believers. Among western societies there are believers and disbelievers, Atheists, believers in God etc. Technology is not limited to any of them. Civilization started in Egypt desert where Arabs live and the tallest building stood there for thousands of years before the USA was found with no single tall building and Europe was founded with no single story building.
The disbelievers could not figure out and create x-ray and MRI in the 1st century or 7th century, so the disbelievers also lack technology until now but not Muslims or Arab alone.
Why God did not provide the disbelievers technology at that time because he is powerful? God reveals knowledge to who ever he wills at his own time. He did reveal knowledge and technology for the same Arabs to build a tall building in Egypt and it stood there for thousands of years as a witness for people like you.
What a nonsense. Arabs do not have irrigation technology and water purification to purify their water until the people of John’s race taught them. What a gibberish, Arabs do not know how to build tall buildings until the people of St. Johns taught them.
All the above technologies started with the Arabs in their deserts thousands of years ago and it is there as a witness. Do not make me mad with your stupid nonsense and lack of research.
Irrigation technology, water technology and tall buildings started in Egypt and it is there for you to see.
Very stupid to think it is only white Americans and westerners have a revealed knowledge.
“Pity we all had to wait centuries before science and reason of disbelievers gave us enough knowledge of the human body and its dysfunctions to finally have a medical profession that did not rely on camel piss, fly dunking, and cupping to cure us all.”
There goes your ignorance again. We didn’t have “to wait centuries” because Muslims had already made major advances in “science and reason”. Who do you think invented the scientific method, you dingbat? It was a Muslim scientist named Ibn Al-Haytham!
“LOL!!! Really? Your god gave us the cure for cancer? Please tell……”
LOL!!! Are you really that dense? Wait, scratch that. We already know you are!
The point of the hadith was to encourage Muslims to seek out medical treatments, because every disease has its cure. In fact, it is not a surprise that Muslims such as Ibn Sina made such advances in medicine. They were being guided by the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). According to the Yale University Library:
“the major Islamic discoveries and contributions to the field of medicine include:
1) The introduction of new fields of medical research and clinical practice such as maternity, gynecology, embryology, pediatrics, dietary medicine, public health, and psychic medicine.
2) The diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of many new diseases such as smallpox and measles.
3) The qualitative development of the field of pharmacology beyond the comparatively limited earlier state of knowledge.
4) In contrast to the Greek tradition which excluded it, Muslims incorporated surgery into the study of medicine, and developed its practice and techniques.
5) The structure and organization of modern hospitals follows patterns established as early as the ninth century. Islamic hospitals had open admission policies for patients of all economic background, and regardless of sex, religion, or ethnicity. They were run by large administrative staff and could accommodate as many as 8,000 patients. They were separated into different wards by sex and nature of illness. Moreover, hospitals had their own pharmacies and facilities in which medicines were prepared, and each hospital had its own apprenticeship program where students obtained practical experience under the guidance of a physician.” (http://www.library.yale.edu/neareast/exhibitions/exhitmedicine.html)
Your ignorance is truly remarkable, John John. I guess now we know why your butt has been hurting so much. You’ve got your head so far up it, it is causing all sorts of trauma! Yikes!!
By the way, Muhammad (pbuh) also pointed to the medical benefits of many types of food, including honey and cumin. Black cumin, for example, has been shown to have anti-cancer properties: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22754079
Get your head out of your that place where the sun don’t shine, little John! You’re embarrassing yourself…
“The point of the hadith was to encourage Muslims to seek out medical treatments, because every disease has its cure.”
Whatever, but the part that says “Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses” is complete bullshit.
So muslims made contributions to medieval medical practices – which were still primitive – but so what? Lots of ancient non-muslim cultures contributed to science and medicine. Amazonian tribes were using herbs and natural medicines to treat diseases and illnesses.
Surgery has been around for thousands of years and no muslim practitioner came up with a coherent theory of infectious diseases – we can thank disbelievers for that.
You still haven’t shown how your god made any of this possible. All of these contributions can be put down to human ingenuity – not some all powerful fantasy being whose words are so vague that we need years of learning to comprehend him and who doesn’t have the decency to provide us with a cure for cancer. Cumin is great, but it falls short of the task.
You still haven’t shown how your god made any of this possible. All of these contributions can be put down to human ingenuity – not some all powerful fantasy being whose words are so vague that we need years of learning to comprehend him and who doesn’t have the decency to provide us with a cure for cancer. Cumin is great, but it falls short of the task.
You also said this?
So muslims made contributions to medieval medical practices – which were still primitive – but so what? Lots of ancient non-muslim cultures contributed to science and medicine. Amazonian tribes were using herbs and natural medicines to treat diseases and illnesses.
Surgery has been around for thousands of years and no muslim practitioner came up with a coherent theory of infectious diseases – we can thank disbelievers for that.
I say;
Please not carefully. Surgery is medicine. You admit surgery has been around thousand of year and so medicine has been around for thousand years. You cannot say surgery has been around for thousand of year but medicine has not been around for thousand of years.
Faiz has provided you links from universities that acknowledge the contribution of Muslims in science and medicine. You admit that the disbelievers did not have the knowledge to produce X-ray and MRI until now. So knowledge was not available to both believers and disbelievers.
To single out either believers or disbelievers and say they are the only ones who did not have knowledge is a very useless thing for someone whose brain is rotten like you. You have a rotten brain. Honestly, why would both believers and disbelievers not know x-ray and MRI at a particular point in time until now for you to say it is only the believers who do not know it but the disbelievers knew it?
Are you eating your own exreta? Fool.
BOTH BELIEVERS AND DISBELIEVERS DO NOT KNOW X-RAY AND MRI SO BOTH BELIEVERS AND NON BELIEVERS HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE. WHEN IT COMES TO KNOWLEDGE NO BELIEVERS AND NON BELIEVERS KNOW UNLESS THEY LEARN AND RESEARCH TO DISCOVER KNOWLEDGE.
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT LEARNING, RESEARCHING, DISCOVERIES, FOR KNOWLEDGE IS FOR EVERYONE ELSE NO MATTER YOUR RELIGION AND PEOPLE OF ALL WALKS OF LIFE HAS PARTICIPATED IN THE QUEST FOR KNOWLEGE, THEN YOU ARE A FOOL WHO WILL PUT YOUR OWN HUMAN EXRETA IN WATER, STIR IT AND DRINK IT. IDIOT BASTARD.
God has provided food for us, but you will not get food unless you search for food. If you stay without searching for food you will not get food but food is there. You search it you get it. It is only idiots like you who think knowledge is not there because people are searching for knowledge.
It is like a lunatic saying because people go to work for food, so food is not there. Food is there and provided by God but you have to search for food. Knowledge is there and provided by God but we have to search for knowledge.
If human beings are all powerful, why is it that they did not get x-ray and MRI until now? All powerful God has all the knowledge and has provided it but asks you to search for it because you do not want to be spoon fed like a child. It is stupid people like you who want their mother to continue to spoon feed them even though you can sleep with your wife. You sleep with your wife but want to be spoon fed by your mother. What an idiot.
The knowledge is there, God has provided us but he will not spoon feed us unless as creatures with intellect use our intellect to research, search and get the knowledge and like searching for food, we need time to go to work, get paid go to grocery and get food, we also need to research and get knowledge like x-ray and MRI.
As time goes on we keep coming up with different foods and it is same as time goes on we continue to come out with new irrigation system, water purification, new medical systems etc.
No body uses the Old apple computers that were developed because we have better ones now. Do you say because we do not have the apple computers we have today but different ones, so there was no knowledge at that time? Only brainless people like you will say that.
It is an Arab from Syria, Steve Jobs who is the brain behind apple. It is a Muslim Jawed Karim from Bangladesh who developed youtube that we are all using today. His father Mr. Karim is also a Muslim Engineer. To say the modern technological developments is not from engineers, researchers, innovators, explorers, etc. is to be a brainless person like you and to say the technological advancement of today excludes Steve Jobs, Jawed Karim and others is to make you the number one racist of this world.
No body uses the Old apple computers that were developed because we have better ones now. Do you say because we DID not have the apple computers we have today but different ones, so there was no knowledge at that time? Only brainless people like you will say that.
Because we have better irrigation and water systems today, so there was no knowledge when the Ancient Egyptians were effectively using irrigation systems and water purification. That is John. The surgery being done thousands of years according to John is not knowledge.
A person who does not know what knowledge means claim other people do not have knowledge. Fool.
“Whatever, but the part that says “Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses” is complete bullshit.”
LOL. You are so idiotic, you don’t even realize it.
The meaning is that for every illness, there is a cure, so we need to seek it out. Why do you think medical researchers spend billions of dollars every year searching for a cure for cancer?
To Muslims both past and present, the hadith served as inspiration to actively seek out medical treatments for various diseases. For example, the medieval scholar As-Suyuti wrote in his work “Tibb Al-Nabi” (Medicine of the Prophet):
“Hence it follows that Man should make use of his faculties and employ his energy in the learning of Medicine. For if he knows that there is a possibility of a cure for every disease and that a remedy exists for every disease, then surely he will be desirous of learning it. Indeed the protection of health is the most noble of objectives, as has already been said. And to this end all the commandments of religion and of this World tend.”
“So muslims made contributions to medieval medical practices – which were still primitive – but so what? Lots of ancient non-muslim cultures contributed to science and medicine. Amazonian tribes were using herbs and natural medicines to treat diseases and illnesses.”
LOL, I guess you really don’t know how to read! The sources I provided state clearly that Muslim scientists made major advances in many fields, including medicine. Before their contributions, pharmacology was relatively “primitive”, as you would put it. With the contributions of such scientists as Ibn Sina, the field of pharmacology advanced rapidly. Also, Islamic scientists were the first to introduce such things as drug tests and drug purity tests. None of these things existed before, even among the ancient Greeks.
Not only that, but Muslim scientists also made corrections of past scientists such as Galen. For example, the Muslim scientist Al-Nafi correctly refuted Galen’s assertion that blood moved through the heart via invisible passages. According to Medical News Today:
“The Greek physician, Galen, centuries before had said that blood reached the left ventricle in the heart from the right ventricle through invisible passages in the septum. Al-Nafi believed this was wrong. Al-Nafi wrote:
“The blood from the right chamber of the heart must arrive at the left chamber but there is no direct pathway between them. The thick septum of the heart is not perforated and does not have visible pores as some people thought or invisible pores as Galen thought. The blood from the right chamber must flow through the vena arteriosa (pulmonary artery) to the lungs, spread through its substances, be mingled there with air, pass through the arteria venosa (pulmonary vein) to reach the left chamber of the heart and there form the vital spirit…
“The heart has only two ventricles …and between these two there is absolutely no opening. Also dissection gives this lie to what they said, as the septum between these two cavities is much thicker than elsewhere. The benefit of this blood (that is in the right cavity) is to go up to the lungs, mix with what is in the lungs of air, then pass through the arteria venosa to the left cavity of the two cavities of the heart and of that mixture is created the animal spirit.”” (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/medicine/medieval-islamic-medicine.php)
Another example is Ibn Haytham’s (the same scientist who developed the scientific method) correction of Greek scientists regarding vision. According to MNT:
“Ancient Greek medicine said that a visual spirit in the eye allowed us to see. Ibn al-Haytham (Al-hazen in Latin) (965-c. 1040), an Iraqi Muslim scientist, explained scientifically that the eye is an optical instrument. He described the anatomy of the eye in great detail and later formed theories on image formation. Al-haytham’s Book of Optics became widely read throughout Europe until the 17th century.”
Little John then said:
“Surgery has been around for thousands of years and no muslim practitioner came up with a coherent theory of infectious diseases – we can thank disbelievers for that. ”
Oh really? Ignorance trumps facts once again in the world of little John! The reality is quite the opposite!
According to the Islamic Medical Student Association of Wayne State University School of Medicine:
“Ibn Sina is regarded as the “Father of of modern medicine and clinical pharmacology” particularly for his introduction of systemic experimentation and quantification of the study of physiology, his discovery of the contagious nature of infectious disease, the introduction of quarantine to limit the spread of contagious disease, the introduction of experimental medicine, clinical trials, randomized controlled trials, efficacy tests, clinical pharmacology, neuropsychiatry, risk factor analysis, the idea of a syndrome, and the importance of dietetics, and the influence of climate and environment on health.” (http://www.med.wayne.edu/imsa/Islam%20and%20Medicine.html)
And more importantly:
“In etiology and epidemiology, Muslim physicians were responsible for the discovery of infectious disease and the immune system, advances in pathology, and early hypotheses related to bacteriology and microbiology. Their discovery of contagious disease in particular is considered revolutionary and is one of the most important discoveries in medicine. The earliest ideas on contagion can be traced back to several hadiths attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) in the 7th century, who is said to have understood the contagious nature of leprosy, mange, and sexually transmitted disease. These early ideas on contagion arose from the generally sympathetic attitude of Muslim physicians towards lepers (who were often seen in a negative light in other ancient and medieval societies) which can be traced back through hadiths attributed to Muhammad and to the following advice given in the Qur’an:
“There is no fault in the blind, and there is no fault in the lame, and there is no fault in the sick.”
This eventually led to the theory of contagious disease, which was fully understood by Avicenna in the 11th century. By then, the pathology of contagion had been fully understood, and as a result, hospitals were created with separate wards for specific illnesses, so that people with contagious diseases could be kept away from other patients who do not have any contagious diseases.”
So once again, we see that you are a cultural chauvinist who thrives on his own ignorance!
Then you said:
“ou still haven’t shown how your god made any of this possible. All of these contributions can be put down to human ingenuity – not some all powerful fantasy being whose words are so vague that we need years of learning to comprehend him and who doesn’t have the decency to provide us with a cure for cancer. Cumin is great, but it falls short of the task.”
WRONG! As I showed above, Muslim scientists were inspired by Islamic ideals regarding seeking out medical treatments for the betterment of human health and also a general compassion for the sick.
And by the way, no one said anything about cumin being a cure for cancer. I said it had anti-cancer properties, and Muhammad (pbuh), a supposedly “ignorant 7th century nomad” correctly described its general health benefits. The point is that as we keep searching the natural world for treatments, we are bound to find a cure for cancer eventually, inshaAllah.
There was no cure for tuberculosis but now there is full cure for tuberculosis. There was no cure for leprosy but now there is cure for leprosy.
The cures are there as Allah said he has provided us with cure. It is just like food. Allah provided us with food but we have to search for food. We cannot sit down and wait for God to spoon feed us with food. We will be useless than pigs if we want God to spoon feed us with the food He provided us because pigs do search for food.
Pigs do not wait for God to spoon feed them with the food He created for His creations. Any human being who thinks of sitting down to be spoon fed by God with the food God created and are there and he is not searching for food, is useless than pig because pigs use their sense to search for food.
Human beings have more intellect than pigs and all animals and we have to search for anything God provided us including food and knowledge.
You go to school, research, explore, discover, search, ask, read, etc. using your intellect, and you will get the knowledge like how you search for food and get a food.
When you get the knowledge or food or anything, you can improve on it as time goes on. You use your God given intellect to always improve on your situation or environment. There was no ice cream to both believers and disbelievers in the 7th century but they all search for milk and drink milk.
The milk is not for believers or disbelievers alone but for all humanity. As time goes, all humanity, not believers or disbelievers alone but all keep improving the food milk they had and came out with different improvements on the food called milk including ice cream. A Pig will think the milk is only for disbelievers alone and disbelievers alone has the right of milk and they have the knowledge to manufacture ice cream in the 7th century but the believers do not know milk.
Just like food, we do find and get the knowledge when we search for it. Any one who says he wants to know x-ray and MRI knowledge without searching, researching, discovering it, exploring but just to get it straight without any thing is spoon feeding and that person does not use his intellect and is certainly used than pig.
Blogging Theology 
Alsalam,
Of course, Br, Hamza is a respected scholar in Islam , and his lecture is very reasonable. However, I’ve noticed that western muslims desperately try to change some of the major concepts in Islam just because they don’t fit with standards of western countries which have been shaped just recently after they had conquered most world by force spreading their values and laying their hands on the most significant sources that flourish their economy. No! we don’t need to do that at all.
Moreover, in light of what Hamza said, how can you reconcile Jihad of early muslims to india and spain?
I agree that Jihad is something goes under fiqh requiring his own terms and conditions, but in the same time I don’t agree that we should denounce it by some way or another just because western people don’t like it.
Christians and jews wouldn’t satisfy untill we follow their religion. Religion in Arabic means (path).
Quran has said that already to warn us.
If extremists have been misusing the text of Quran and Sunnah, the solution is not by misusing the same text to conclude the opposite.
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The Hadith ‘…Fight Until They Say There Is No god But Allah’ Explained
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/12/25/the-hadith-fight-until-they-say-there-is-no-god-but-allah-explained/
Salaam
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May Allah bless you, brother.
My point is would christians & jews be satisfied even after the explanation in your article?
They will not.
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Sorry just seen your comment. Ameen. Missionaries will not be satisfied brother Abdullah. Here is a part 2 on this Hadith,
https://discover-the-truth.com/2017/01/09/revisiting-i-have-been-commanded-to-fight-hadith/
Salaam
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I have been ordered to fight against the people until they testify that there is no one worthy of worship but Allâh and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh and until they perform the Prayers and pay the Zakãh, and if they do so they will have gained protection from me for their lives and property, unless [they do acts that are punishable] in accordance with Islãm, and their reckoning will be with Allâh Most High. [Bukhari, Muslim]
Shaykh Ahmed Ibn Taymiyyah says:“It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.” (Majmu` al-Fatawa 19/20)
Islam never considers war as holy:
Fighting is allowed in Islam only as a last resort, as a necessary evil, not as something holy. The Qur’an says what means:To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to fight], because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid… (Al-Hajj 22:39).
Islam which restricts fighting to only against those who fight you and to not be aggressive–(Qur’an 2:190); to fight only until there is no persecution and that all religions are for Allah–(Qur’an 8:39)
Islam is dedicated to peace even in the face of possible deception by the enemy: “And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it… And if they intend to deceive, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee;” “So if they withdraw from you and fight you not and offer you peace, then Allah allows you no way against them”–(Qur’an 8:61-62; 4:90).
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Great comments sister!
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Wanna also leave some comments (btw Abdullah’s post just doesn’t make sense), anyway:
From Jonathan’s last book:
The Qur’anic edict of ‘No compulsion in religion’ governed the interpretation of Hadiths like the authenticated report of the Prophet declaring, ‘I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, establish prayer and pay the charity tithe.’ Read in light of the Qur’anic prohibition on coerced belief, this mission to extract confessions of belief was not interpreted literally. Rather, it was understood as referring either only to Arabia’s pagans (not followers of monotheistic religions) or as a metaphor for the conquered non-Muslims agreeing to submit to Muslim rule.
Jonathan A.C. Brown, Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet’s Legacy, p. 102.
___________________
From Ahmed al-Dawoody’s Ph.d thesis on war in Islam:
The hadīth narrated by Abū Hurayrah in which the Prophet says, “I have been ordered to fight against the people [emphasis added] until they say: There is no God but God,”[56] refers only to the Arab idolaters, according to “the majority of the Muslims,”[57] including the Hanafīs and Ibn Hanbal, while for the Mālikīs, it refers only to the tribe of Quraysh.[58] […] More importantly, this hadīth means, as Ibn Taymiyyah explains it, that if non-Muslim enemy combatants during the conduct of war accept Islam, the war must cease, but this does not mean that all people have to be fought until they accept Islam.[60]
[56] : Ḥadīths numbers 1335, 2786, 6526, and 6855 in al-Bukhārī, Al-Jāmi‛ al-Ṣahīh al-Mukhtaṣar, Vol. 1, p. 507, Vol. 3, p. 1077, Vol. 6, pp. 2538, 2657. See also al-Bukhārī, The Translation of the Meanings of Ṣahih al-Bukhārī, Vol. IV, p. 124.
[57] : Shalabī, Al-Jihād wa al-Nuẓum al-‛Askariyyah, pp. 61 f.; al-Zuhaylī, Al-‛Alāqāt al-Dawliyyah, p. 97. See also Peters, “Djihad,” p. 287; Mir, “Islam, Qur’anic,” p. 209.
[58] : Al-Shaybānī, Al-Siyar, p. 222; Ibn Qudāmah, Al-Mughnī, Vol. 9, p. 173; al-Māwardī, Al-Ḥāwī, Vol. 14, p. 153; al-Nawawī, Al-Majmū‛, Vol. 21, pp. 45–47; Peters, Islam and Colonialism, p. 36; al-Qaraḍāwī, Fiqh al-Jihād, Vol. 1, p. 328.
[60] : Ibn Taymiyyah, Qā‛idah Mukhtaṣarah fī Qitāl al-Kuffār, pp. 95 f.; al-Zuhaylī, Āthār al-Ḥarb fī al-Islām, p. 107; Zahrān, Al-Silm wa al-Ḥarb, p. 42; Darwazah, Al-Jihād fī Sabīl Allah, p. 72; Āl Mahmūd, Al-Jihād al-Mashrū‛, p. 32; al-Qāsimī, Al-Jihād wa al-Ḥuqūq al-Dawliyyah, p. 167; al-Ghunaimi, Qānūn al-Salām fī al-Islām, p. 57; ‛Afīfī, Al-Mujtama‛ al-Islāmī, p. 151; Ṭabliyyah, Al-Islām wa Ḥuqūq al-Insān, p. 74; al-Qaraḍāwī, Fiqh al-Jihād, Vol. 1, pp. 335–337.
Ahmed Al-Dawoody – The Islamic Law of War: Justifications and Regulations – p.79.
_________________________
From the letter to baghdadi . com :
The Goal of Jihad: Scholars are in agreement regarding the goal of jihad, because God says: ‘Fight them till there is no sedition, and the religion isfor God; then if they desist, there shall be no enmity, save against evildoers.’(Al-Baqarah, 2: 193). The Prophet further said: ‘I have been ordered tofight people until they say: “There is no god but God”, so whoever says: “There is no god but God” is safe in himself and his wealth except as permitted bylaw, and his reckoning is with God.’ This is the goal of jihad once war hasbeen waged on Muslims. These texts specify what victory looks like inthe case that Muslims are victorious, and that the reason for jihad must not be confused with the goal of jihad; all scholars are in agreement onthis matter.
—————————-
And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
— Quran 10:99
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I appreciate what this Hamza guy is trying to do but I have to say that any god that cannot get his message across to the most simplistic thinkers amongst us is almost certainly a fantasy.
Do you guys really believe that this extremely important grammatical distinction of whether the passage in question is singular or plural is so hard to convey to human minds that your god needs an elitist body of experts to convey the message for him? Why can the god of Islam not convey this most simple of concepts to the common man – is it really so hard to convey the few possible contexts of the word “you” to people?
Surely some of you have wondered why your god seems to have such difficulty with a simple grammar problem? What Hamza is saying is that all those poor, innocent folks who died from Islamic religious extremism have done so because your god was not able to make a simple definitive declaration of what he meant by the word “you” in its various contexts – that tells me that Islam does not need “experts” it needs an objective, common sense re-evaluation of the idea that you worship a being that can’t make himself easily understood on such a hugely significant issue.
What you will find iğs that such a god is unlikely to exist and is merely the imaginings of an ignorant tribal culture.
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John
You said;
Surely some of you have wondered why your god seems to have such difficulty with a simple grammar problem? What Hamza is saying is that all those poor, innocent folks who died from Islamic religious extremism have done so because your god was not able to make a simple definitive declaration of what he meant by the word “you” in its various contexts – that tells me that Islam does not need “experts” it needs an objective, common sense re-evaluation of the idea that you worship a being that can’t make himself easily understood on such a hugely significant issue.
I say;
Every religion including Atheist has misunderstanding no matter how clear a verse is and how it is intended, people will twist it to their whims and caprice.
In Islam, when a verse is revealed, the reason why it is revealed is said by the prophet. Arabic grammar is very complex and that is what the Sheikh is saying without knowing Arabic very well especially, the classical Arabic, you are not qualified to interpret the Quran.
Tafsir, the interpretation of the Quran was started by our prophet, then followed by his wives and disciples, to their disciples to their disciples and the cycle continuous till today. Because the Arabic grammar is complex as Mark Hanson is saying.
Mark Hanson and all Muslim scholars are the products of Islamic Education and also they travelled to learn Islam from disciples after disciples who got interpretations from their teachers and the cycle goes back to our prophet.
On the Christian side, their God could not even be clear who he was and that has led to continuous blood shed since Christianity was created till today. All these isis was created by Christian war into the Muslim lands which was peaceful with Christian vice presidents i.e. Tariq Aziz and the rest.
Who God is, is very clear in the Quran and no disagreement about that but The Christian God has disagreement from Christians who that God is. Based on your thinking, Christian God is not God because he did not make himself clear for anyone to know.
Islamic God is clear that He is Only 1 divine being and He is Alone and No one else. I know this can be found in the Bible but some people say He is 3 persons in 1 being that cannot be found in the Bible and that has led to continuous blood shed from the inception of Christianity till today.
Those who have the believe of 3 persons 1 God are always the aggressors to all people they think they are trying to save by any means possible and that has resulted into wars, calamites, etc.
Yes, Arabic grammar is complex but we have tafsir from our prophet which has been passed on to his disciples to their disciples till today, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and most Islamic Scholars are interpreting it how our prophet intended for it to be interpreted.
There are evil people like Nabeel Quraish who has no qualification in Islam and those scholars who want to use the verses for their whims and caprice and the Belgium boys who did not go to Islamic school but smoking drugs in Night Clubs who twist the Quran to cause harm.
It is happening in Christian world as well. Christianity was brutal than this until the liberals over power them and slapped freedom of religion on them.
Thanks.
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@John It’s not a Qur’anic verse, it’s a hadith! One does not need to delve into any grammatical analysis to understand its meaning, just recalling the mere fact that non-combatant aren’t to be fought (if the casus belli of war in Islam was unbelief itself, then killing non-combatants would have been lawful, but it is not), and recalling what the Qur’an says in multiple passages,
—————————-
There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become
distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in God
has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. God is
all hearing and all knowing
— Quran 2:256
—————————-
Say, ‘Now the truth has come
from your Lord: let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let
those who wish to reject it do so.’ We have prepared a Fire for the
wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for
relief, they will be relieved with water like molten metal, scalding
their faces. What a terrible drink! What a painful resting place!
— Quran 18:29
—————————-
And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
— Quran 10:99
—————————-
Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them;
— Quran 88:21-22
—————————-
He said: “O my people! See ye if (it be that) I have a Clear Sign from my Lord, and that He hath sent Mercy unto me from His own presence, but that the Mercy hath been obscured from your sight? shall we compel you to accept it when ye are averse to it?
— Quran 11:28
—————————-
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Johnnie, Johnnie, I guess your butt continues to hurt.
It really doesn’t take a genius to understand that people are the problem, not God or the Quran. People can misinterpret the rules, either by mistake or deliberately to suit their own agendas. It’s not a surprise that ignorant extremists, both Muslim and non-Muslims, are the ones misinterpreting the Quran. People of knowledge, however, know better.
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Faiz
That’s pretty obtuse and not the kind of well thought out and measured response I’ve come to expect from you.
People aren’t the problem – your god is the problem. Why can’t he convey a simple grammatical point directly to his followers without needing the help of “experts” with years of study in dogma and myth? It’s not a hard thing to do especially if you are all powerful.
that litt’ guy
“John It’s not a Qur’anic verse, it’s a hadith! One does not need to delve into any grammatical analysis to understand its meaning”
The hadith records a command given, presumably, by your guys’ god, so it is still his word, right? Somehow, the definitive meaning was not conveyed properly or conveyed so ineffectively such that only people who speak a dead language and study for years are able to grasp its meaning. That is just poor communication.
Intellect
“Every religion including Atheist has misunderstanding no matter how clear a verse is and how it is intended, people will twist it to their whims and caprice.”
Hamza says that the verse is not clear unless you undergo years of training – I think that is a silly notion given that it is supposed to be an all powerful being who is sending the message. Yet, this entity can’t give a command that can be straightforwardly interpreted or understood.
Given this ridiculous fact that an all powerful god can’t make himself understood clearly and easily, then it seems more reasonable to think that if such a being exists, this verse did not come from it. Alternatively, it is even more reasonable to think that your god doesn’t actually exist and this verse – and perhaps the whole religion – is made up by people who could not communicate simple grammatical points clearly.
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John
You are assuming that you are a perfect human being and your comments here shows that you have a biased mind towards Islam. No matter how Islam is explained to you, you bias is stronger than that.
Ok. lets go. It is clearly you have an uncontrollable bias as a human being and you are so fixed on your bias and it makes you think based on your bias.
Yes, we all have bias but good reasoning and open mindedness help us all to come out from our bias to take a good alternate.
That is the problem we have, because people like you will take scripture and put their own bias to it to act for their whims.
Yesterday, Donald Trump used his bias for becoming a president to flip flop on punishing a woman for abortion. When the heat gathers on him his campaign quickly issued a statement to say a woman should not be punished for abortion.
He is bias towards becoming a president so he can do anything. The same goes to you and those interpreting scriptures to cause harm to others. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus etc. are using scriptures to harm others right now.
Those who do not believe in any scripture are also using their bias to harm others but reasoning is the best thing to do.
In Islam, we believe God has given us reason and God has made it clear who he is and every thing is clear in the Quran if you know the language and sincere.
Of course you have to know the language of the Quran to know Quran. All our Islamic teachers teach us with Arabic and not any language and most Muslims know how to recite in Arabic and know the meaning from Arabic.
God has made his scripture clear to us but we still need to put our bias aside to get the clarity with all tools available i.e. learning the religion, its language and tafsir.
God revealed scriptures in different languages and people used their bias on all of them, so it is not God but man as you are using your bias.
Thanks.
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John
God cannot be seen for now, so he can send his message to us through some medium and the language is clear but you need to learn it. He used different languages but we have problem with all.
The Quran is clear, “Do not harm anyone, until he is coming to harm you”. If anyone cannot learn the others his common sense must tell him he should not do to others what they do not want them do to him. The others are clear anyway but you need to learn the language and know the tafsir.
Thanks.
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Intellect
I’m not biased at all – criticizing your god and his vague commands is not biased.
“In Islam, we believe God has given us reason and God has made it clear who he is and every thing is clear in the Quran if you know the language and sincere.”
Well, this just shows your confusion – the quran is not clear is it, you said as much a couple of posts back. You need the tafsir to make sense of the quran. The problem is that some of the tafsirs were compiled decades even centuries after the 7th century. Ibn Kathir’s tafsir was compiled 6th centuries after the supposed revelations – there is no reason to trust it any more than you can trust Imam Joe Abdullah Shmoe whose personal opinion leads to killing.
Such a vague god cannot really exist, a god who supposedly sustains every minute second of creation in real time yet who cannot reveal his word without it needing the input of some dudes later on, is probably just made up.
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John
You said;
Well, this just shows your confusion – the quran is not clear is it, you said as much a couple of posts back. You need the tafsir to make sense of the quran. The problem is that some of the tafsirs were compiled decades even centuries after the 7th century. Ibn Kathir’s tafsir was compiled 6th centuries after the supposed revelations – there is no reason to trust it any more than you can trust Imam Joe Abdullah Shmoe whose personal opinion leads to killing.
I say;
You re wrong. The tafsir are there with people but was COMPILED, COMPILED, COMPILED later. All scholars have the tafsir by learning from the disciples who learn from the disciples tracing back to our prophet. Will there be some mistakes yes and that is where the Quran says we must use our common sense.
It is not sensible to go and kill people but it is sensible to stay in peace with your neighbours but if they are coming to attack you, then defend yourself.
That is all the Quran narrative. We do not follow the personal opinion of anyone but the tafsir of our prophet and common sense. Of course, some people have their freewill to follow their bias like you are doing here and they will twist the scriptures be it Quran, Bible, Torah, Buddhist scripture, Hindus scripture to kill other people.
The Buddhist are massacring minority Muslims in Myanmar right now, Some Hindus are killing Muslims in India but thank God the Muslim population in India is high and they fight back, they would have been exterminated.
You keep blaming Muslim God alone and that makes you a hypocrite. Radovon Karadzic, a Bosnian Christian was sentenced a couple of days ago for genocide against Muslims. He and his Christian bandits killed thousands of Muslims for ethnic cleansing and there are horrible Biblical verses that says children must be killed and some Christians are using it today.
You are silent about that and it makes you a big hypocrite. It is man who uses his bias to kill not God scripture. YES, ONE HAS TO LEARN A LANGUANGE IN WHICH A SCRIPTURE IS REVEALED TO BE PERFECT IN ITS ITERPRETATION. Fortunately, Muslims have Islamic schools in all Muslim communities all over the world who teach in Arabic, write in Arabic and talk Quran, tafsir etc. in Arabic like how our prophet did.
We do understand our Quran and Islam, but people can use their bias to twist it for their whims.
Thanks.
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Intellect
“The tafsir are there with people but was COMPILED, COMPILED, COMPILED later. ”
That is almost a picture perfect example of historical unreliability – the further removed in time an account is from an event, the less likely it is to be true.
“YES, ONE HAS TO LEARN A LANGUANGE IN WHICH A SCRIPTURE IS REVEALED TO BE PERFECT IN ITS ITERPRETATION.”
Which language is that though? The earliest quranic manuscripts we have use the hijazi script which predates Islam, and not classical arabic which evolved later. So there is even doubt which language the quran was “revealed” in.
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John
You said;
Which language is that though? The earliest quranic manuscripts we have use the hijazi script which predates Islam, and not classical arabic which evolved later. So there is even doubt which language the quran was “revealed” in.
I say;
Are you a classical Arabic scholar? Where is your credential? to tell us what script is good for our religion. You blame us for learning from scholars but you now want us to learn from you about script which you have no knowledge of. That is a lie. Jay Smith started this lies of hijazi script and you are following him to discredit Islam. THAT IS A LIE.
You said;
That is almost a picture perfect example of historical unreliability – the further removed in time an account is from an event, the less likely it is to be true.
“YES, ONE HAS TO LEARN A LANGUANGE IN WHICH A SCRIPTURE IS REVEALED TO BE PERFECT IN ITS ITERPRETATION.”
I say;
You do not know Islam. When our prophet taught his disciples, they wrote and memorised as much as they could. Islamic tradition started from, learning, memorization, written, oral, scholars etc. in Arabic language that the scripture was revealed.
Quran means recitation and so the angel command our prophet to recite and the recitation continue till today when people continue to memorise the Quran and other literature to augment the written.
A living proof: This guy has memorised the Quran and some hadith and fluent in classical Arabic and he like most scholars agreed with Hamza Yusuf in classical interpretation of the Quran as we were taught in Islamic schools.
Thanks.
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“The earliest quranic manuscripts we have use the hijazi script which predates Islam, and not classical arabic which evolved later. So there is even doubt which language the quran was “revealed” in.”
what kind of bull shit is this? are you conflating script with language?
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Johnnie, you are an embarrassment. Once again, you have shown what an ignorant buffoon you are. Hijazi is a script, a writing style. Arabic is a language. There is a big difference. Moreover, there is nothing strange in the use of the Hijazi script in Quranic manuscripts.
Let me guess. You did a Google search to pretend to be someone who has done some research. Right? Is your butt still hurting? 😉
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John
You are so desperate to discredit Islam including lies. robert2016 has quickly detected your lies and deceptions as Christian missionaries always do. Jay Smith is a classical example who mix script and language to deceive people and you are learning from him.
You see how we Muslims understands our religion? You see how we use our common sense as the Quran advised us to do? We do not depend on scholars but use our common sense. I was telling you this.
You have exposed your self as a liar and must apologise to Islam that you keep falsely accusing including anyone who is a Muslim.
VERY DISINGENOUS GUY MIXING SCRIPT WITH LANGUAGE.
Thanks.
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Robert
That sounds like equivocation to me. CLassical arabic has its own script – that most modern day arabs cannot comprehend. If that was not the case, then Hamza would not have to claim that you need to specifically learn classical arabic to understand and interpret the quran. The hijazi script is not classical arabic, but the earliest qurans are not “revealed in your god’s own language.
Intellect
“Are you a classical Arabic scholar? Where is your credential? to tell us what script is good for our religion. You blame us for learning from scholars but you now want us to learn from you about script which you have no knowledge of.”
I believe that words can carry meanings that can be comprehensible to a vast assortment of people. Human languages can easily be misunderstood – but they are human languages. You claim that the word of god is clearly understood because it comes from your god – yet, clearly, it is not clear otherwise you would not need to undergo years of special training in a dead language to be able to make sense of it. Anybody should be able to pick up your scriptures and comprehend them.
Since we both acknowledge that this is not the case, your religious scriptures cannot be said to be objective truths. If it was objective information being conveyed, then it should have no possibility of misinterpretation.
Let me ask you guys something – do you believe that your god once brought a dead body back to life by having the jews hit the corpse with a piece of beef, and do you seriously believe that your god would send a special revelation to tell visitors to the prophets house not to be late and not to stay too long?
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Faiz
“Hijazi is a script, a writing style. Arabic is a language.”
I don’t claim to be a scholar of arabic, but I don’t believe that simple grammatical ideas cannot be easily transmitted from an all powerful deity to a human being. You guys are saying that you need years of training to truly understand a simple message – only attack those who attack you.
There’s nothing difficult about that, why couldn’t your god get such a straight forward message across without making people jump through hoops? Could it be that the vagueness is due to the fact that the “revelation” does not come from an all powerful deity, but rather from the mind of men whose language is not perfectly transmitted?
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Intellect
“You see how we Muslims understands our religion? You see how we use our common sense as the Quran advised us to do? ”
Actually, you don’t use common sense – if you did you probably would not believe that your god exists. In fact, as you have admitted, common sense takes second place to deference to authority. No room for common sense there.
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John
You said;
That sounds like equivocation to me. CLassical arabic has its own script – that most modern day arabs cannot comprehend. If that was not the case, then Hamza would not have to claim that you need to specifically learn classical arabic to understand and interpret the quran. The hijazi script is not classical arabic, but the earliest qurans are not “revealed in your god’s own language.
I say;
Where did you learn classical Arabic has its own script?
You said;
I believe that words can carry meanings that can be comprehensible to a vast assortment of people. Human languages can easily be misunderstood – but they are human languages. You claim that the word of god is clearly understood because it comes from your god – yet, clearly, it is not clear otherwise you would not need to undergo years of special training in a dead language to be able to make sense of it. Anybody should be able to pick up your scriptures and comprehend them.
I say;
It is clear in classical Arabic in which it is revealed, so one must learn classical Arabic to interpret it and our scholars are teaching us classical Arabic in our Islamic schools and we understand Islam based on the language in which it was revealed.
Thanks.
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”
That sounds like equivocation to me. CLassical arabic has its own script – that most modern day arabs cannot comprehend.”
you are soundingmore and more like a fukin idiot.
here
anta majnoon wa 3ailatuka
here is arabic classical arabic in british english alphabet
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John
You said;
The hijazi script is not classical arabic, but the earliest qurans are not “revealed in your god’s own language.
I say;
God revealed his scriptures in various languages and not Arabic alone. Hebrew, Aramaic and or Greek, Pope and some Catholics uses Latin.
Do you insult those Christians learning Greek to understand their religion? Do you insult Jews and their Rabbis for learning Hebrew to understand their religion? Do you insult Pope and Catholics for speaking and learning Latin to understand their religion?
Do you call Catholics uncivilized? Because Catholics are learning and using dead language? Do you call Christians speaking in tongues as superstitious and uncivilised people?
Do you call miraculous Christians who use Jesus name to turn someone into a Dog on stage in a Christian Church as superstitious and uncivilized?
Do you call Christians who use the verses in the Holy Bible to dance with snakes and the rattle snake and black cobra keep biting and killing them? Do you call them fools, superstitious, uncivilized, barbaric and suicidal with a bad God?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95B3WnKwnt8
An Arab Muslim is too wise and technological advanced to take the habitual dance with a poisonous snake to keep biting and killing him. This is done in the United States of America by White Evangelical Christians like you who thinks your race and religion is the only civilized, superior and technological advanced than anyone.
A POT CALLING A KETTLE BLACK.
Thanks.
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John
You have to guts to come on our blog to lie about our language, script and religion then insult us. Which Christian blog will tolerate this? Because we are tolerant we tolerate you to insult us and we take that opportunity to correct you and expose your lies.
Hijazi script is a language-What a lie by a Christian on an Islamic blog?
I pray you do not go to prison and get raped by inmates to get a mutilated anus.
Thanks.
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Intellect
“Do you insult those Christians learning Greek to understand their religion? Do you insult Jews and their Rabbis for learning Hebrew to understand their religion? Do you insult Pope and Catholics for speaking and learning Latin to understand their religion?”
I don’t agree that I have insulted anybody on this blog – the only person casting insults is robert2016. But you are wrong, I would certainly challenge these groups if they claimed that you had to study a dead language for years in order to understand their scriptures.
If what Hamza says is true, then that means the revelations of your god are intended for only a handful of people in the entire world because only those with access to years of higher education are able to understand your god’s word. That makes no sense to me.
“I pray you do not go to prison and get raped by inmates to get a mutilated anus.”
Me too – except I wouldn’t pray for it, I would use reason and a rational approach to my life to ensure that I stay clear of criminal activity.
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LOL, right John…you haven’t insulted anyone…
Well besides referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant” and talking about people’s penises and rear-ends…
No, no besides that, you haven’t insulted anyone!!!
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John
You said;
I don’t agree that I have insulted anybody on this blog – the only person casting insults is robert2016. But you are wrong, I would certainly challenge these groups if they claimed that you had to study a dead language for years in order to understand their scriptures.
If what Hamza says is true, then that means the revelations of your god are intended for only a handful of people in the entire world because only those with access to years of higher education are able to understand your god’s word. That makes no sense to me.
I say;
No, the message is intended for all humanity because there are different languages and God has to choose only one to communicate with us. We do not see God, so he cannot come to all of us speaking our language. He used other languages as well but not Arabic alone.
Scholars started from our prophet to memorise, write, and pray with the revelation and it continues till today. So many people are not Arabs, despite the lies about Islam by media, people are still embracing it. That is the miracle. So the message is reaching people despite it is in Arabic.
I know all Islamic schools all over the world use Arabic to teach Islam, and a serious Muslim will always sends his children to Islamic school and we do understand our religion. Because of the way we understand our religion we can detect any lies against it like how we detected your untruth about Islam.
We are now getting somewhere. You have tone down your insults a little bit and that will benefit all of us to understand each other if even we do not agree.
Find the following what constitute a big insult from you to us and especially Arabs and Muslims
-They do not have architects and engineers to build skyscrapers except you alone and God provided the technology to you and your people alone and no one can have that technology.
-There are uncivilized things going on in the USA including gang raping a new prisoner to cause his anus to be mutilated but you do not call it uncivilized but call Sharia that is there to deter those actions as uncivilized.
-Right now people are using Bible verses to cause rattle snakes, black cobra to kill them and their family, you do not call their scripture as false and you do not call their God as false but you call our God as false for saying do not be an aggressor but defend yourself.
Thanks.
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Faiz
“Well besides referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant” and talking about people’s penises and rear-ends…”
Your god would be proud of your taqiyya dishonesty here Faiz – you are master at it!
Intellect
“No, the message is intended for all humanity because there are different languages and God has to choose only one to communicate with us. We do not see God, so he cannot come to all of us speaking our language. He used other languages as well but not Arabic alone.”
Uh-huh. But he supposedly left a book didn’t he? And only a select few – who happen to have been born into the right socio-economic class to be able to afford years and years of higher education – are able to learn enough to understand what on earth your poor communicator of a god was talking about.
Put it this way, your fantasy god’s supposed word is so obscure and hard to understand that hundreds of thousands of innocent muslim youths are easily mislead into believing that he wants them to kill other people and themselves in his name.
Your god is so weak that he cannot prevent his words from being misinterpreted and it takes a band of intrepid, special-ed “experts” to explain things that your god was unable to explain clearly himself?
And you worship this guy?
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If I explain things to you, you keep going circles. I said Islamic schools are more in every Muslim communities from the time of our prophet till today to teach us what God intends us to know and also the language for us to make our decision.
In most poor communities, Islamic education is free for the poor but the rich will pay for their kids. I am telling you this from experience. All Muslim communities have Islamic schools for their kids and some have memorized the whole Quran and understands it in Arabic.
We know what the Quran means. I mentioned that those people like Nabeel Quraish who learnt his Islam from David Wood who does not know the language or the Belgium terrorist who did not attend Islamic school but partying in a Night club and those who followed the radical(every religion has radicals) are few who are causing problem.
THE BIG PROBLEM IS THE WESTERN INTERFERENCE AND OCCUPATION OF THE ARAB LANDS AND CARPET BOMBING THEM THAT YOU CANNOT FIND IN YOU NEWS IS CAUSING THE PROBLEM.
Twenty years ago, John, no one hears of any your joining any terrorist group. The west created the terrorist so that they will kill Muslims and the west will have excuse to expands its war in the Islamic world to spread Christianity by force.
According to polls more evangelical Christians supports war on Iraq and you will see them preaching Christianity in refugee camps to younger children and women.
You said;
Your god is so weak that he cannot prevent his words from being misinterpreted and it takes a band of intrepid, special-ed “experts” to explain things that your god was unable to explain clearly himself?
And you worship this guy?
I say;
If you are sincere and generalize it and add Jesus as God to this I will be happy because people are using his name to rape people like Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Eddie Lee Long and people are using Jesus name to allow poisonous snake to kill them.
Thanks.
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Intellect
Why do you keep bringing up christianity? You do know I am an agnostic right?
Islam is independently and objectively nonsensical – regardless of the failings of other faiths. If your best defense is that other religions are stupid as well, then all that means is that you acknowledge your religion is silly and absurd but it doesn’t matter because so is everyone else’s.
“We know what the Quran means.”
So Hamza is full of it?
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John
No. I did not say other religions are stupid as well. That is typical of White Evangelical Christian like you. We have seen them here who claim not to be Christians because they know Christianity is independently and objectively nonsensical than Islam.
I SAID ALL RELIGION HAS PEOPLE WHO INTERPRETE THEIR SCRIPTURE TO THEIR WHIMS AND CAPRICE.
So the resort to lies like you to claim they are not Christians to get a free licence to insult Islam. You bring anything against Islam, as you admit is more nonsensical than Christianity as a Christian yourself, I will bring the comparison from Christianity.
Why is Islam nonsensical than other religions? This shows you are not an agnostic but White Evangelical Christian who thinks his religion is better than others. YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN. It show, you want to be insulting Islam and leave Christianity and that is a characteristic of a hypocrite.
JOHN, YOU ARE A WHITE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN ATTACKING ISLAM.
Hamza Yusuf is our teacher and so are all Islamic scholars. We learn from them and we know our religion. Just like some Christian will use their religion and scripture foolishly, some Muslims and all religion will use their religion foolishly.
Because you are White Evangelical Christian John, who hates Islam, you will to your God and say you are not a Christian and single our Muslims and Islam to Insult. When the worse side of Christianity is presented to you to attack, you said you are an agnostic.
True agnostics generalize their rejection of God to all religions and their God but not a wicked hypocrite White Evangelical Christian like you who will single out Muslims and Islam alone as your attacking target. It makes you a lying wicked White Evangelical Christian who deceives and attacks. You insult us, I will show you the worse insult in Christianity.
Christians who say God is 3 persons 1 being that cannot be found in their scriptures is ok with you.
Thanks.
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Intellect
“Because you are White Evangelical Christian John, who hates Islam, you will to your God and say you are not a Christian and single our Muslims and Islam to Insult.”
WTF??!!
No I am not. And I don’t hate Islam – I think it is a religious scam and patently the product of shrewd 7th century barbaric nomads who had little trouble convincing the 7th century ignoramuses around them that their fairy tales were real.
Modern people living in the west have no such excuses – they should know better.
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John
Because you are a liar who is Evangelical Christian who hates Islam, I showed you the Modern people living in the west who uses their religion and scripture for excuses to kill themselves and others and you ignore that just to return insulting us. You wicked White Evangelical Christian. You wicked Islam and Muslim hater.
Thanks
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Really, John John? Taqiyya? That’s your defense? Do I really need to post the link to our “discussion” on Sharia law? Are you really going to make me do that?
Of course, you just proved me right anyway with your pathetic response to me and the reference to “your god” and “taqiyya”. I guess your butt continues to hurt from your humiliation on the other thread, huh? 😉
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Brother Intellect, I agree that Johnnie is a sniveling little weasel who suffers from extreme cultural chauvinism but he is definitely not an evangelical Christian. He is an agnostic and a particular wicked one at that. He lies about Muslims and Islam with his pathetic Google searches, as do many Christians, but he is not one of them.
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Faiz
” Do I really need to post the link to our “discussion” on Sharia law? Are you really going to make me do that?”
Yes, please show me where I was “referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant” and talking about people’s penises and rear-ends.”
I said mutilating people was savage and barbaric, and (to sum up) that this punishment is the product of ignorant 7th century nomads who were clueless about the nuances of human psychology that lead to criminal activity. My taqiyya comment stands I’m afraid.
I did mention penises and rear ends but what’s wrong with that? Intellect talks about sore anuses all the time and he is even going to pray for mine. 😉
“He is an agnostic and a particular wicked one at that.”
Not wicked, just rational. But thanks for setting Intellect straight.
Intellect
“I showed you the Modern people living in the west who uses their religion and scripture for excuses to kill themselves and others and you ignore that just to return insulting us. ”
Like I said, showing me the failings of other religious believers does not disprove that your god is incapable of conveying a simple command.
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I showed you evidences and corrections to your lies but you refuse to see. You talk about Arab people as uncivilized, do not know technology and barbaric using their religion. I proved White people are worse than you accuse Arabs and their religion but you single out Arabs and their religion makes you a religious bigot and a racist.
Thanks.
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Intellect
“I proved White people are worse than you accuse Arabs and their religion but you single out Arabs and their religion makes you a religious bigot and a racist.”
Irony alert.
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Oh Johnnie, Johnnie. LOL.
So now, you apparently don’t know the definition of the word “insult”. Referring to people’s private parts is generally seen as insulting (and childish) behavior. I noticed that brother Intellect only referred to your “anus” after your repeated references to “butthurt”. Shall we see the examples? Do you really want me to paste them here?
Also, referring to people as “ignorant” or “savage” or “barbaric” or “superstitious” while maintaining your own high view of yourself, is also considered insulting behavior. That is certainly not my idea of a “civilized” discussion. Apparently, it is to you.
Taqiyya? I see that the Google scholar in you is alive and well. LOL.
Much to learn, you still have young padawan… 😉
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Faiz
So you are back pedalling about linking to comments in which I supposedly made statements “referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant”” ?
Could it be that you know I said no such thing and that your taqiyya has been busted? You know well enough that I said no such thing. So why don’t taqiyya nonsense somewhere else? =)
“I noticed that brother Intellect only referred to your “anus” after your repeated references to “butthurt””
He was kind enough to pray for it too. A true brother if ever there was one!
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Johnnie, Johnnie…Have you no concern for your dignity? Well, actually scratch that. You never had any dignity at all! LOL!!
Still yapping about “taqiyya”? I guess you haven’t figured it out. Your Googling of Islam has given you very little authentic knowledge. Rather, like most internet trolls, you have gorged on propaganda websites written by people who are just as ignorant as you. Your lazy research has led you to the laughable reference to “taqiyya”, whereas honest research would have led you in the opposite direction. Here is a good article refuting your utterly idiotic rants about “taqiyya”:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/08/silencing-spencer-taqiyya-and-kitman-are-part-of-judeo-christian-belief/
Now, as for your claim that you haven’t insulted anyone on this blog, I guess I am forced to provide specific examples to further expose you as the lying weasel that you are. Oh, I’m sorry. Was that an insult? 😉
March 28 – “That is incredibly dumb. Any rational person – inapplicable to yourself and Faiz – can read that I oppose the barbaric legal system you call sharia.”
Hmmm…”any rational person…inapplicable to yourself and Faiz…”, “barbaric legal system you call sharia…” Yep, nothing insulting there!
March 29 – “Think about this – if you can allow your brain to work without resorting to magical thinking – the Burj Khalifa is only affordable because of oil revenues. Oil has been in the ground throughout the middle east for millions of years and your god failed to reveal to his primitive 7th century followers that it was there, how to extract it, and what use it could be put to.”
Hmmm…Let’s see…”…allow your brain to work…”, “your god failed to reveal to his primitive followers…” Yep, nothing insulting there!
Another example from the same date – “Here’s my prediction; once the world moves past its reliance on oil – and that day is near – the Burj Khalifa will fall into ruin and the sharia nuts who think it proves Islam will be left standing around holding their dicks waiting for the next non-muslim invention to latch onto that they will then claim proves ISlam.”
Hmmm…Let’s see… “sharia nuts…”, “…left holding their d***s…” Yep, nothing insulting there!
And let’s not forget the numerous times you referred to people’s rear-ends. By the way, how is yours doing? It’s been taking quite a walloping the last several days… 😉
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Faiz
So you are admitting that I was never “referring to Muslims as barbarians and savages and Arabs as “ignorant”” ?
But do you deny that if it wasn’t for disbelievers, Arabia would still be a largely underpopulated desert wasteland, devoid of electricity, tall buildings, and showers?
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John
You said;
But do you deny that if it wasn’t for disbelievers, Arabia would still be a largely underpopulated desert wasteland, devoid of electricity, tall buildings, and showers?
I say;
I am not an Arab. The next time you insult Arabs I will insult you. I am avoiding to insult you back, just to keYou ep the conversation going but you keep repeating insulting particular group of people and that is not good please.
Who are disbelievers and believers? Not all Arabs believe in Islam. Do you insult them as technological backwards? Do you call an Arab Christian barbaric? Islam was not the only religion of Arabs and it was not the first religion of Arabs. Before Islam, Arabs were pagans, Christians, Jews and others. Why did their God not teach them how to build story buildings?
This is insults upon insults on Arabs and Muslims despite the refutations with good materials and research you keep repeating insults upon insults to Arabs. You think they are all Muslims. No. We have Christians Arabs as well, and do you call them uncivilized?
This is your last warning. If you insult Arabs or Muslim again, I will insult you back until Paul comes in. What nonsense is that? You keep referring to a group of people as uncivilized, barbaric, lack of technological advancement etc. despite good debate to proof it is not so.
Thanks.
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Little John,
Obviously you don’t know how to read. You also must really enjoy being humiliated. How’s your butt doing?
I showed what a liar you are and all you can manage in your defense is to keep asking the same question? Come now Johnnie! Try to have some dignity! LOL.
And I guess you don’t know that Arabia was a very advanced society for hundreds of years after the arrival of Islam while European society languished in the Dark Ages. And it was only with its contact with Islamic society that Europe began to claw its way out. Of course, it’s not surprising that you don’t know the history. After all, you are a lazy idiot. 😉
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Faiz
“Obviously you don’t know how to read. You also must really enjoy being humiliated. How’s your butt doing?”
Actually, I do know how to read and I have absolutely no sense of humiliation whatsoever – I don’t believe in superstitious nonsense that says there exists a god who is so poor at communication that he is incapable of making a clear statement to his followers about whom one can kill and when. You think such a being exists.
Thanks for inquiring about my butt – it is doing extremely well now that Intellect has been praying for my anus for the past couple of days.
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LOL Johnnie, you have been refuted over and over again regarding your nonsense about the “grammar”. I know it’s hard to admit when you are wrong about something, but it’s time to grow up little John. I could care less what you believe in, you idiot. Your pathetic opinions are worthless. You can continue to babble nonsense all you want. No one will take you and your poor research seriously.
By the way, are you sure you don’t want to see a proctologist? I hear they can work wonders!
Also, you should know that reading is fundamental. Hooked On Phonics might work for you! 😉
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Faiz
“By the way, are you sure you don’t want to see a proctologist? I hear they can work wonders!”
Thanks for the suggestion but I’ll just stick to drinking the camel’s urine. But don’t you believe that praying to your fantasy god might help with my anus? 😉
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Actually little John, it is a teaching of Muhammad (pbuh) that we should seek medical treatment since Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses. But you wouldn’t know that, would you? What with your butthurt… 😉
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Faiz
Pity we all had to wait centuries before science and reason of disbelievers gave us enough knowledge of the human body and its dysfunctions to finally have a medical profession that did not rely on camel piss, fly dunking, and cupping to cure us all.
“Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses.”
LOL!!! Really? Your god gave us the cure for cancer? Please tell……
It seems to me that he gave absolutely no worthwhile knowledge to fight even a common infection – even some “revelation” imparting the technology to design and build a MRI machine would have been good. X-rays? Did your god show us how to produce ’em? Anti-virals? No? Just camel piss and a whole lot of superstition?
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John
You said;
Faiz
Pity we all had to wait centuries before science and reason of disbelievers gave us enough knowledge of the human body and its dysfunctions to finally have a medical profession that did not rely on camel piss, fly dunking, and cupping to cure us all.
I say;
The question you would rather ask is why the disbelievers not know the science in those centuries? You presume the disbelievers never exists in those centuries. I do not want to put insults in my discussion unless someone insults me.
You deserve an insult to think the disbelievers do not exist in the 7th century to have science and reason to build tall buildings(skyscrapers), x-rays etc.
You ignorantly blamed the Arabs Muslim for not knowing the above and now you are admitting that the knowledge was not just there for anyone including the disbelievers. The Egyptians had the knowledge to build tall buildings for centuries before America was created.
So, God give knowledge to whom He wills and at a time He wants and not the time John, Dick and Harry wants Him to do.
You said;
“Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses.”
LOL!!! Really? Your god gave us the cure for cancer? Please tell……
It seems to me that he gave absolutely no worthwhile knowledge to fight even a common infection – even some “revelation” imparting the technology to design and build a MRI machine would have been good. X-rays? Did your god show us how to produce ’em? Anti-virals? No? Just camel piss and a whole lot of superstition?
I say;
It is obviously there are disbelievers in the 7th Century. Why did the disbelievers in the 7th century not build the x-rays and MRI in the 7? but waited for centuries for people to die before they build the x-ray and MRI?
Thanks.
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Intellect
“The question you would rather ask is why the disbelievers not know the science in those centuries? ”
Disbelievers were working on it – Muslims were drinking camel’s piss and dunking flies in their tea to ward off illness.
I think I asked the right questions – Faiz thinks that it is absolutely amazing that it was taught that we should all seek medical treatment. I think that is good when medical treatment is based on empirical sciences not on superstitions.
“t is obviously there are disbelievers in the 7th Century. Why did the disbelievers in the 7th century not build the x-rays and MRI in the 7? but waited for centuries for people to die before they build the x-ray and MRI?”
Why did your god wait centuries and allow people to die without providing the necessary scientific knowledge so that we could develop non-superstitious medicine? Your god is supposed to be all powerful – surely you cannot be faulting humans for not coming up with scientific advances that your god should have known and revealed?
Your god is obviously a figment of a primitive 7th century imagination.
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John
You said;
Why did your god wait centuries and allow people to die without providing the necessary scientific knowledge so that we could develop non-superstitious medicine? Your god is supposed to be all powerful – surely you cannot be faulting humans for not coming up with scientific advances that your god should have known and revealed?
Your god is obviously a figment of a primitive 7th century imagination.
I say;
There were other Gods before 7th century. If you based your insults on only 7th century, I will also start using every profane words on you until the blog owner ban all of us. That is nonsense to select a group of people i.e. Arabs and Muslims and keep insulting them whereas in the United States of America, people are dancing with poisonous snakes and get bitten to death in the Name of their scripture which is 1st century and it predates 7th century.
The same United States of America allows loose laws that allow more gang rape either in prison or outside prison to mutilate the anuses of humans everyday. It’s laws is so loose that it allows sex, prostitution, adultery, Church fathers and pastors sleeping with children either males or females, prostitutes, child porn cheating on funds etc.
The same loose laws of the USA and western countries allows for much armed robbery, drug, gang members committing murder, homicide, suicide etc. I will keep repeating these and more if you dare insult Arabs and or Muslims.
If you are happy about the above happening to people everyday, we are not happy about that and Sharia, the God law is the only thing to reduce the above. Countries like South Korea which has capital punishment have reduced their crime rate to a minimum.
You said;
Why did your god wait centuries and allow people to die without providing the necessary scientific knowledge so that we could develop non-superstitious medicine? Your god is supposed to be all powerful – surely you cannot be faulting humans for not coming up with scientific advances that your god should have known and revealed?
Your god is obviously a figment of a primitive 7th century imagination.
I say;
The problem here is there were Gods before 7th century and you keep being racist and foolish to be only on Arabs, Islam and 7th century. It is insult to Arabs, Muslims and Christian Arabs and non religious Arabs. This is no joke it is insult to an ethnic group.
You blame the Arabs for living in deserts as uncivilized people with no technology at that time and blame their God for not giving them technology at that time.
Now you are saying even the disbelievers did not have technology at that time but have to wait for now to have x-rays and MRI. So it was not the Arabs and or Muslims that did not have technology at that time but everyone.
Among Arabs, there are disbelievers and believers. Among western societies there are believers and disbelievers, Atheists, believers in God etc. Technology is not limited to any of them. Civilization started in Egypt desert where Arabs live and the tallest building stood there for thousands of years before the USA was found with no single tall building and Europe was founded with no single story building.
The disbelievers could not figure out and create x-ray and MRI in the 1st century or 7th century, so the disbelievers also lack technology until now but not Muslims or Arab alone.
Why God did not provide the disbelievers technology at that time because he is powerful? God reveals knowledge to who ever he wills at his own time. He did reveal knowledge and technology for the same Arabs to build a tall building in Egypt and it stood there for thousands of years as a witness for people like you.
Thanks.
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John
What a nonsense. Arabs do not have irrigation technology and water purification to purify their water until the people of John’s race taught them. What a gibberish, Arabs do not know how to build tall buildings until the people of St. Johns taught them.
All the above technologies started with the Arabs in their deserts thousands of years ago and it is there as a witness. Do not make me mad with your stupid nonsense and lack of research.
Irrigation technology, water technology and tall buildings started in Egypt and it is there for you to see.
Very stupid to think it is only white Americans and westerners have a revealed knowledge.
http://www.irrigationmuseum.org/exhibit2.aspx
Thanks.
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Johnnie, you said:
“Pity we all had to wait centuries before science and reason of disbelievers gave us enough knowledge of the human body and its dysfunctions to finally have a medical profession that did not rely on camel piss, fly dunking, and cupping to cure us all.”
There goes your ignorance again. We didn’t have “to wait centuries” because Muslims had already made major advances in “science and reason”. Who do you think invented the scientific method, you dingbat? It was a Muslim scientist named Ibn Al-Haytham!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7810846.stm
Little John then said:
“LOL!!! Really? Your god gave us the cure for cancer? Please tell……”
LOL!!! Are you really that dense? Wait, scratch that. We already know you are!
The point of the hadith was to encourage Muslims to seek out medical treatments, because every disease has its cure. In fact, it is not a surprise that Muslims such as Ibn Sina made such advances in medicine. They were being guided by the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). According to the Yale University Library:
“the major Islamic discoveries and contributions to the field of medicine include:
1) The introduction of new fields of medical research and clinical practice such as maternity, gynecology, embryology, pediatrics, dietary medicine, public health, and psychic medicine.
2) The diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of many new diseases such as smallpox and measles.
3) The qualitative development of the field of pharmacology beyond the comparatively limited earlier state of knowledge.
4) In contrast to the Greek tradition which excluded it, Muslims incorporated surgery into the study of medicine, and developed its practice and techniques.
5) The structure and organization of modern hospitals follows patterns established as early as the ninth century. Islamic hospitals had open admission policies for patients of all economic background, and regardless of sex, religion, or ethnicity. They were run by large administrative staff and could accommodate as many as 8,000 patients. They were separated into different wards by sex and nature of illness. Moreover, hospitals had their own pharmacies and facilities in which medicines were prepared, and each hospital had its own apprenticeship program where students obtained practical experience under the guidance of a physician.” (http://www.library.yale.edu/neareast/exhibitions/exhitmedicine.html)
Your ignorance is truly remarkable, John John. I guess now we know why your butt has been hurting so much. You’ve got your head so far up it, it is causing all sorts of trauma! Yikes!!
By the way, Muhammad (pbuh) also pointed to the medical benefits of many types of food, including honey and cumin. Black cumin, for example, has been shown to have anti-cancer properties: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22754079
Get your head out of your that place where the sun don’t shine, little John! You’re embarrassing yourself…
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Faiz
“The point of the hadith was to encourage Muslims to seek out medical treatments, because every disease has its cure.”
Whatever, but the part that says “Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses” is complete bullshit.
So muslims made contributions to medieval medical practices – which were still primitive – but so what? Lots of ancient non-muslim cultures contributed to science and medicine. Amazonian tribes were using herbs and natural medicines to treat diseases and illnesses.
Surgery has been around for thousands of years and no muslim practitioner came up with a coherent theory of infectious diseases – we can thank disbelievers for that.
You still haven’t shown how your god made any of this possible. All of these contributions can be put down to human ingenuity – not some all powerful fantasy being whose words are so vague that we need years of learning to comprehend him and who doesn’t have the decency to provide us with a cure for cancer. Cumin is great, but it falls short of the task.
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John
You said this?
You still haven’t shown how your god made any of this possible. All of these contributions can be put down to human ingenuity – not some all powerful fantasy being whose words are so vague that we need years of learning to comprehend him and who doesn’t have the decency to provide us with a cure for cancer. Cumin is great, but it falls short of the task.
You also said this?
So muslims made contributions to medieval medical practices – which were still primitive – but so what? Lots of ancient non-muslim cultures contributed to science and medicine. Amazonian tribes were using herbs and natural medicines to treat diseases and illnesses.
Surgery has been around for thousands of years and no muslim practitioner came up with a coherent theory of infectious diseases – we can thank disbelievers for that.
I say;
Please not carefully. Surgery is medicine. You admit surgery has been around thousand of year and so medicine has been around for thousand years. You cannot say surgery has been around for thousand of year but medicine has not been around for thousand of years.
Faiz has provided you links from universities that acknowledge the contribution of Muslims in science and medicine. You admit that the disbelievers did not have the knowledge to produce X-ray and MRI until now. So knowledge was not available to both believers and disbelievers.
To single out either believers or disbelievers and say they are the only ones who did not have knowledge is a very useless thing for someone whose brain is rotten like you. You have a rotten brain. Honestly, why would both believers and disbelievers not know x-ray and MRI at a particular point in time until now for you to say it is only the believers who do not know it but the disbelievers knew it?
Are you eating your own exreta? Fool.
BOTH BELIEVERS AND DISBELIEVERS DO NOT KNOW X-RAY AND MRI SO BOTH BELIEVERS AND NON BELIEVERS HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE. WHEN IT COMES TO KNOWLEDGE NO BELIEVERS AND NON BELIEVERS KNOW UNLESS THEY LEARN AND RESEARCH TO DISCOVER KNOWLEDGE.
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT LEARNING, RESEARCHING, DISCOVERIES, FOR KNOWLEDGE IS FOR EVERYONE ELSE NO MATTER YOUR RELIGION AND PEOPLE OF ALL WALKS OF LIFE HAS PARTICIPATED IN THE QUEST FOR KNOWLEGE, THEN YOU ARE A FOOL WHO WILL PUT YOUR OWN HUMAN EXRETA IN WATER, STIR IT AND DRINK IT. IDIOT BASTARD.
God has provided food for us, but you will not get food unless you search for food. If you stay without searching for food you will not get food but food is there. You search it you get it. It is only idiots like you who think knowledge is not there because people are searching for knowledge.
It is like a lunatic saying because people go to work for food, so food is not there. Food is there and provided by God but you have to search for food. Knowledge is there and provided by God but we have to search for knowledge.
If human beings are all powerful, why is it that they did not get x-ray and MRI until now? All powerful God has all the knowledge and has provided it but asks you to search for it because you do not want to be spoon fed like a child. It is stupid people like you who want their mother to continue to spoon feed them even though you can sleep with your wife. You sleep with your wife but want to be spoon fed by your mother. What an idiot.
The knowledge is there, God has provided us but he will not spoon feed us unless as creatures with intellect use our intellect to research, search and get the knowledge and like searching for food, we need time to go to work, get paid go to grocery and get food, we also need to research and get knowledge like x-ray and MRI.
As time goes on we keep coming up with different foods and it is same as time goes on we continue to come out with new irrigation system, water purification, new medical systems etc.
No body uses the Old apple computers that were developed because we have better ones now. Do you say because we do not have the apple computers we have today but different ones, so there was no knowledge at that time? Only brainless people like you will say that.
It is an Arab from Syria, Steve Jobs who is the brain behind apple. It is a Muslim Jawed Karim from Bangladesh who developed youtube that we are all using today. His father Mr. Karim is also a Muslim Engineer. To say the modern technological developments is not from engineers, researchers, innovators, explorers, etc. is to be a brainless person like you and to say the technological advancement of today excludes Steve Jobs, Jawed Karim and others is to make you the number one racist of this world.
Thanks.
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correction;
No body uses the Old apple computers that were developed because we have better ones now. Do you say because we DID not have the apple computers we have today but different ones, so there was no knowledge at that time? Only brainless people like you will say that.
Because we have better irrigation and water systems today, so there was no knowledge when the Ancient Egyptians were effectively using irrigation systems and water purification. That is John. The surgery being done thousands of years according to John is not knowledge.
A person who does not know what knowledge means claim other people do not have knowledge. Fool.
Thanks.
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Johhnie said:
“Whatever, but the part that says “Allah has provided a cure for all illnesses” is complete bullshit.”
LOL. You are so idiotic, you don’t even realize it.
The meaning is that for every illness, there is a cure, so we need to seek it out. Why do you think medical researchers spend billions of dollars every year searching for a cure for cancer?
To Muslims both past and present, the hadith served as inspiration to actively seek out medical treatments for various diseases. For example, the medieval scholar As-Suyuti wrote in his work “Tibb Al-Nabi” (Medicine of the Prophet):
“Hence it follows that Man should make use of his faculties and employ his energy in the learning of Medicine. For if he knows that there is a possibility of a cure for every disease and that a remedy exists for every disease, then surely he will be desirous of learning it. Indeed the protection of health is the most noble of objectives, as has already been said. And to this end all the commandments of religion and of this World tend.”
“So muslims made contributions to medieval medical practices – which were still primitive – but so what? Lots of ancient non-muslim cultures contributed to science and medicine. Amazonian tribes were using herbs and natural medicines to treat diseases and illnesses.”
LOL, I guess you really don’t know how to read! The sources I provided state clearly that Muslim scientists made major advances in many fields, including medicine. Before their contributions, pharmacology was relatively “primitive”, as you would put it. With the contributions of such scientists as Ibn Sina, the field of pharmacology advanced rapidly. Also, Islamic scientists were the first to introduce such things as drug tests and drug purity tests. None of these things existed before, even among the ancient Greeks.
Not only that, but Muslim scientists also made corrections of past scientists such as Galen. For example, the Muslim scientist Al-Nafi correctly refuted Galen’s assertion that blood moved through the heart via invisible passages. According to Medical News Today:
“The Greek physician, Galen, centuries before had said that blood reached the left ventricle in the heart from the right ventricle through invisible passages in the septum. Al-Nafi believed this was wrong. Al-Nafi wrote:
“The blood from the right chamber of the heart must arrive at the left chamber but there is no direct pathway between them. The thick septum of the heart is not perforated and does not have visible pores as some people thought or invisible pores as Galen thought. The blood from the right chamber must flow through the vena arteriosa (pulmonary artery) to the lungs, spread through its substances, be mingled there with air, pass through the arteria venosa (pulmonary vein) to reach the left chamber of the heart and there form the vital spirit…
“The heart has only two ventricles …and between these two there is absolutely no opening. Also dissection gives this lie to what they said, as the septum between these two cavities is much thicker than elsewhere. The benefit of this blood (that is in the right cavity) is to go up to the lungs, mix with what is in the lungs of air, then pass through the arteria venosa to the left cavity of the two cavities of the heart and of that mixture is created the animal spirit.”” (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/medicine/medieval-islamic-medicine.php)
Another example is Ibn Haytham’s (the same scientist who developed the scientific method) correction of Greek scientists regarding vision. According to MNT:
“Ancient Greek medicine said that a visual spirit in the eye allowed us to see. Ibn al-Haytham (Al-hazen in Latin) (965-c. 1040), an Iraqi Muslim scientist, explained scientifically that the eye is an optical instrument. He described the anatomy of the eye in great detail and later formed theories on image formation. Al-haytham’s Book of Optics became widely read throughout Europe until the 17th century.”
Little John then said:
“Surgery has been around for thousands of years and no muslim practitioner came up with a coherent theory of infectious diseases – we can thank disbelievers for that. ”
Oh really? Ignorance trumps facts once again in the world of little John! The reality is quite the opposite!
According to the Islamic Medical Student Association of Wayne State University School of Medicine:
“Ibn Sina is regarded as the “Father of of modern medicine and clinical pharmacology” particularly for his introduction of systemic experimentation and quantification of the study of physiology, his discovery of the contagious nature of infectious disease, the introduction of quarantine to limit the spread of contagious disease, the introduction of experimental medicine, clinical trials, randomized controlled trials, efficacy tests, clinical pharmacology, neuropsychiatry, risk factor analysis, the idea of a syndrome, and the importance of dietetics, and the influence of climate and environment on health.” (http://www.med.wayne.edu/imsa/Islam%20and%20Medicine.html)
And more importantly:
“In etiology and epidemiology, Muslim physicians were responsible for the discovery of infectious disease and the immune system, advances in pathology, and early hypotheses related to bacteriology and microbiology. Their discovery of contagious disease in particular is considered revolutionary and is one of the most important discoveries in medicine. The earliest ideas on contagion can be traced back to several hadiths attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) in the 7th century, who is said to have understood the contagious nature of leprosy, mange, and sexually transmitted disease. These early ideas on contagion arose from the generally sympathetic attitude of Muslim physicians towards lepers (who were often seen in a negative light in other ancient and medieval societies) which can be traced back through hadiths attributed to Muhammad and to the following advice given in the Qur’an:
“There is no fault in the blind, and there is no fault in the lame, and there is no fault in the sick.”
This eventually led to the theory of contagious disease, which was fully understood by Avicenna in the 11th century. By then, the pathology of contagion had been fully understood, and as a result, hospitals were created with separate wards for specific illnesses, so that people with contagious diseases could be kept away from other patients who do not have any contagious diseases.”
So once again, we see that you are a cultural chauvinist who thrives on his own ignorance!
Then you said:
“ou still haven’t shown how your god made any of this possible. All of these contributions can be put down to human ingenuity – not some all powerful fantasy being whose words are so vague that we need years of learning to comprehend him and who doesn’t have the decency to provide us with a cure for cancer. Cumin is great, but it falls short of the task.”
WRONG! As I showed above, Muslim scientists were inspired by Islamic ideals regarding seeking out medical treatments for the betterment of human health and also a general compassion for the sick.
And by the way, no one said anything about cumin being a cure for cancer. I said it had anti-cancer properties, and Muhammad (pbuh), a supposedly “ignorant 7th century nomad” correctly described its general health benefits. The point is that as we keep searching the natural world for treatments, we are bound to find a cure for cancer eventually, inshaAllah.
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There was no cure for tuberculosis but now there is full cure for tuberculosis. There was no cure for leprosy but now there is cure for leprosy.
The cures are there as Allah said he has provided us with cure. It is just like food. Allah provided us with food but we have to search for food. We cannot sit down and wait for God to spoon feed us with food. We will be useless than pigs if we want God to spoon feed us with the food He provided us because pigs do search for food.
Pigs do not wait for God to spoon feed them with the food He created for His creations. Any human being who thinks of sitting down to be spoon fed by God with the food God created and are there and he is not searching for food, is useless than pig because pigs use their sense to search for food.
Human beings have more intellect than pigs and all animals and we have to search for anything God provided us including food and knowledge.
You go to school, research, explore, discover, search, ask, read, etc. using your intellect, and you will get the knowledge like how you search for food and get a food.
When you get the knowledge or food or anything, you can improve on it as time goes on. You use your God given intellect to always improve on your situation or environment. There was no ice cream to both believers and disbelievers in the 7th century but they all search for milk and drink milk.
The milk is not for believers or disbelievers alone but for all humanity. As time goes, all humanity, not believers or disbelievers alone but all keep improving the food milk they had and came out with different improvements on the food called milk including ice cream. A Pig will think the milk is only for disbelievers alone and disbelievers alone has the right of milk and they have the knowledge to manufacture ice cream in the 7th century but the believers do not know milk.
Just like food, we do find and get the knowledge when we search for it. Any one who says he wants to know x-ray and MRI knowledge without searching, researching, discovering it, exploring but just to get it straight without any thing is spoon feeding and that person does not use his intellect and is certainly used than pig.
Thanks.
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correction. The last sentence must
………useless than pigs.
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