52 replies

  1. A curious point indeed. Although I think love can be expressed in ways other than saying it such as in our actions. Christians would say that Jesus’ love for humanity was perfectly exposed when he died on the cross for their sins.

    If i’m not mistaken what Christians mean by the word love is more akin to ‘what is best for that person’ which can of course be shown in any number of ways.

    Liked by 1 person

    • If…

      “Jesus’ love for humanity was perfectly exposed when he died on the cross for their sins.”

      Then why did he cry out in despair…

      “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?”


    • What does it mean ” he died on the cross for their sins.”?

      And it seems his love only extends to those who believe that in some sense.


  2. I believe the popular answer to this question from Christians is to say that Jesus was referring to Psalm 22, however while not impossible for someone to quote poetry at the eve of their death (I’m reminded of the Maccabeans who were said to be shouting Gods praises as they were being hacked to pieces)

    I wonder what the evidence is for this view (maybe the Christians can answer this one). However does a sense of abandonment mean he had or would deter from that mission?

    Pain and suffering can indeed by a very loney experience especially considering the crucifixtion was a horribly slow and painful death. Jesus was only human after all.


  3. sorry i meant ‘Pain and suffering can indeed be a very lonely experience’


  4. Burhanuddin1 well you see…umm…..human beings are a sinful bunch….and umm….and therefore can’t/won’t be able to meets Gods standard for salvation….perfection…i think….i’m sure its in there somewhere probs in Ruth or Obadiah?

    God didn’t want us all (some) to go to hell except for like Hitler, Obama, Charles Darwin, and a few Popes…so…he sent his son (himself..kinda) to become a human being….no no i meant a human and divine being to live the perfect life (humans can’t do this) and then die in our place and receive Gods condemnation for us…or was it to defeat the Devil…or death…:O

    therefore we are all (some) are saved from such condemnation and can all happily sin all over again without having to feel guilty about….wait…thats not right i meant…….oh jeez…

    Patrice Out

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Burhanuddin1 thank goodness my answer helped to clarify things for you. Ken has taught me well😉

    Paul why should I be a Muslim?


  6. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

    John 15:9

    Liked by 1 person

    • Johns Gospel is largely regarded as not representing the actual teachings of Jesus but rather a highly theological interpretation by the unknown author.

      So the above statement is still very much true.

      Liked by 2 people

  7. “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13

    What does Jesus cry on the cross mean, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?”

    Yes He was quoting Psalm 22:1 and pointing to the rest of it, which includes details of prophesy of the crucifixion. (they pierced my hands and feet; I can count all My bones)

    But He was also showing that He was bearing the guilt of sin, the condemnation of sin, the punishment of sin, in the place of sinners from all the nations (ethnic people groups – Greek – ethna εθνη – Revelation 5:9; 7:9.

    He was expressing the human feelings of abandonment, as the Father poured out His wrath on Him; which is what Jesus was anxious about in the garden – “Father, if possible, may this cup pass from Me. But not My will, but Your Will be done.” Luke 22:42

    But Jesus voluntarily went to the cross out of love for His Father and out of love for humanity. (John 3:16; John 10:18 – “no one takes My life from Me; I lay it down voluntarily on My own authority . . . ”

    “He who who knew no sin made Him to be sin (the condemnation of sin was imputed to Christ), so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him”
    2 Corinthians 5:21

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
    Galatians 3:13-14

    Isaiah 53
    “All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.”


  8. Ken amongst that litany of copy and pastes there was not one reliable statement of the historical Jesus about him saying that he loves everyone.

    Isiaiah 53 is largely considered to be talking about Israel not the Messiah and as I mentioned above John is not representative of the historical Jesus. Revelations is also a heavily edited apocalyptic text written to bolster Christians who were persecuted by the Romans. There is no evidence that Christ said anything that was written there.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Just as Shabir Ally said, “as a Muslim I take what the rest of the Qur’an says and put it all together”

      so I as a Christian take what all the Bible says and put it all together.


    • But the Quran is one book revealed to one man over a few decades.
      The Bible, in contrast, is a library of books, written over a thousand years or more, by mostly unknown scribes. There are diverse versions of this library containing different books with contradictory interpretations (think of the Eucharist). Christians today, unlike the Quran, do not even agree on which books the Bible contains!!


  9. The Gospel of John was written by an eyewitness, the apostle John himself. It does not matter what liberal scholars say; it is God’s word and reliable and totally historical.

    Revelation is also God’s word, written by the apostle John. (most scholars say it was written around 96 AD, some say before 70 AD)


    • The gospel of John itself does not claim to be by the apostle John and nearly all scholars (including Christians like FF Bruce and Richard Baukham) do not believe the historical Jesus actually said most of the sayings attributed to him in John. So your own Christian scholars refute you Ken.

      No serious scholar thinks that the apostle John wrote the book of Revelation. They are clearly written by two very different people. Again the work does not claim to be by the apostle John. And John was a common name at that time.


    • Bauckham says the core of it came from eyewitness accounts. “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses”, though he doesn’t think it was John who wrote the final edition; he does think it all comes from eyewitnesses.


    • Yes but what else does he say Ken? Does he agree with you that Jesus actually said the ‘I am’s??


  10. Also, Romans 6:1-7 teaches that we do not have the right to say “we are forgiven now so we can sin all we want”, etc. – Whoever says that or has that attitude means that they don’t understand and they have not been changed by grace and the love of God. The grace and love of God changes you on the inside so that you don’t want to sin anymore; and you don’t have that attitude.

    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [b]in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old [c]self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be rendered powerless, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
    Romans 6:1-7

    Isaiah 53 cannot be about Israel, because of the singular pronouns “He” all the way through it – a single individual. Isaiah 53 starts in Isaiah 52:13 – “My servant . . . ” That is why Jesus called Himself “the servant” – “The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45
    Jesus was referring back to Isaiah 52:13 – 53:12


  11. “God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8


    • That is Paul’s opinion. Jesus taught that sins could be forgiven by simple repentance. See Sermon on the Mount. Human sacrifice is an abomination to God according to the Torah.


  12. Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.

    John 13:1


  13. The Gospel of John is historical and reliable and all would do well to read it from beginning to end instead of constantly dismissing it.


    • Ken are you saying that Richard Baukham and F.F Bruce have not read the Gospel of John from beginning to end?

      I’ve read the Gospel of John from beginning to end and so has Paul. We still reject it as historical. So does Shabir Ally who has read it from beginning to end. Besides Ken we still have yet to see an answer to where does Jesus in the Bible state that he loves anyone let alone everyone?

      C’mon Patriiiiickkkkkkk

      Liked by 1 person

    • You may be amazed to learn that I have read it from beginning to end as well!
      Gosh maybe even FF Bruce/Baukham have read it too??


    • Of course they read it and you have read from beginning to end – I believe you – but many Muslims have not read the NT from beginning to end or the gospel of John from beginning to end; so I am just encouraging others to read the the whole thing. Like you always stopping the quote too soon on Mark 10:18-22, which Patrice also did. Patrice, I believe you that have read John all the way, ok; but many have not and they way many argue here shows that they have not read the whole Gospels or /and NT all the way through.

      I have read the Qur’an all the way through, but most Muslims have not read the NT, the true original Injeel.


  14. Allan quoted John 15:9 and so Jesus did say, “I have loved you; abide in My love”


  15. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

    John 15:9

    Totally historical and Jesus said it.


    • Lol it’s in John so your own scholars would be doubtful.


    • no totally unhistorical and Jesus never said it.

      “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother.’” 20 He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth.” 21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money[c] to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions. – Mark 10:18-22

      Totally historical and Jesus said it.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Yes here Jesus denies he is even ‘good’ –


  16. “You may be amazed to learn that I have read it from beginning to end as well!
    Gosh maybe even FF Bruce/Baukham have read it too?? ”

    Ken doesn’t agree😦

    Liked by 1 person

  17. “Yes here Jesus denies he is even ‘good’ – ”

    Sign of a humble person right there


  18. Another curious fact!

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Perhaps. But it’s quite common unfortunately. Some of Ali’s so called followers saw him as God incarnate – much to the horror of Ali. Many Buddhists worship Buddha as a god – surely Buddha would have been horrified. Haile Selassie is worshiped as God incarnate by his followers. And so on…


    • I remember Hamza Tzortzis back last year in a lecture saying that there is evidence from anthropology that human beings are naturally oriented to worship and venerate those who are perceived as higher than ourselves.


  20. When quoting Mark 10:18-22, keep reading to at least verse 27. (shows that Jesus was not teaching salvation by works or giving one’s money away to the poor, but rather Jesus was exposing the man’s idolatrous heart. ) Only God can change a sinful heart.

    Also, even Richard Bauckham admits that when Jesus asks, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but God alone”, Jesus is using ” a wonderful double entendre” and actually saying, “If you recognize Me as good; then you should recognize as God in the flesh, since only God is good.”

    Bauckham explained this on one of the Unbelieveable radio programs.



    • if the man had a change of heart that night and given his wealth to the poor would he have gone to heaven if he died the immediately afterwards?


    • That is hardly impressive. It seems to me Bauckham is simply committing a non sequitur, or perhaps a circular argument. The only way to read Jesus’ statement as somehow being a “double entendre” is to assume from the start that he believed he was God. But the Gospels are not clear in that regard. In fact, they contradict each other and themselves.

      The simpler explanation is that Jesus was saying that God is good, and thus that no man (Jesus included) could claim to be good.

      Liked by 1 person

  21. Using Bauckham and Bruce backfires on you guys, if you take all of what they say into consideration.

    Paul Williams twists F. F. Bruce into something that he did not mean.

    F. F. Bruce believed in the complete inspiration (God-breathed quality) of the gospel of John. The Holy Spirit guided John to write what he wrote and “brought to remembrance all that Jesus spoke” and “led them into all the truth”. John 14, 16

    Although Bauckham does not think the final product was the apostle John himself, he does think all of the contents go back to the actual eyewitnesses of Jesus and His ministry and death and resurrection.



    • Ken do you agree with Bauckham:

      “All scholars, whatever their views of the redactional work of the Synoptic Evangelists
      and of the historical reliability of the Gospel of John, agree that the latter presents a much
      more thoroughly and extensively interpreted version of the story of Jesus.”
      (p. 410.)

      and this:

      ‘The Gospel of John places on the lips of Jesus during his ministry another of the characteristically Deutero-Isaianic declarations of unique divine identity. The Johannine choice is the concise statement ‘I am he,’ usually translated in the Septuagint Greek as ego eimi (‘I am’), the form in which it appears in John’s Gospel.’ (page 55)

      ‘We observed earlier how John places Deutero-Isaiah’s great monotheistic self-declaration of God – ‘I am he’ – on the lips of Jesus in the series of seven absolute ‘I am’ sayings.’ (page 63)

      (taken from his book God Crucified)


  22. Jesus also says in Mark 10 that eternal life is through Torah obedience that is both faith and works.

    I do not agree with Baukham on this as Jesus did not claim to be God.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Evangelicals seek to overcomplicate Jesus’ message so it becomes literally impossible to follow. Hence they can then fill the hole with ludicrous interpretations. Follow Jesus and you get to God but instead they look at the finger pointing to the moon.


  24. Actually, what Jesus says in Mark 10 is compatible with Paul’s teaching, since they are all (all 27 books of NT) inspired by the one Holy Spirit. All Scripture is God-breathed.

    If the man had realizes his sinfulness and idolatry of making his possessions and money as his “god”, repented of that and turned to Christ to save Him, then he would shown that repentance by the ability to let go of his riches.

    “with man it is impossible” Mark 10:27 (no one seeks for God, no one is righteous, all are sinners and come short of the glory of God – Romans 3:9-23)

    “. . .but not with God, for all things are possible with God” (Mark 10:27) = “By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, lest any one should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9
    “the minds of the unbelievers are blinded . . .
    but God who said, “light shall shine out of darkness” (Genesis 1:3) is the one who has shone in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.” 2 Cor. 4:3-6

    “the Lord opened Lydia’s heart to respond to the things that Paul was preaching. Acts 16:14


  25. I agree with Bauckham on Mark 10 – that Jesus is using a rhetorical device of double entendre to get the man to see that he is actually seeing that Jesus is good, and therefore God, because only God is good.

    But I disagree with Bauchkham on those quotes of “placing words on the lips of Jesus”. That is ridiculous. Jesus said all of those things (all the I am statements, etc.) , as john the apostle was an eyewitness of Jesus saying them.


    • Seems to me you pick and choose what you want to accept from your own top Christian scholars.

      If a finding agrees with your views you accept the research and trumpet it. If you disagree with his scholarship you damn it as “ridiculous” even though most top scholars agree with Richard Bauckham.

      Very convenient.


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