‘In the present work, a study has been undertaken of one prophecy in which Prophet Isaiah (pbuh) has foretold the advent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The author presents a detailed analysis of the forty-second chapter of Isaiah and its parallel fulfilment in the person of Muhammad (pbuh). The prophecy is analysed in the light of an established practice of God (Sunnatullah) concerning God’s Messengers and the author demonstrates the manifestation of this Sunnah in the case of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), as was foretold by Isaiah (pbuh). Muhammad (pbuh) is seen as the Servant of God, chosen and supported by God. He is gentle and kind in his personal life yet at the same time perseveres against all odds to complete the task of bringing judgment to the nations.’
I have not read this book but the author asked me to mention it on Blogging Theology. It certainly looks well worth reading.
Blogging Theology 
Looks interesting!
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ridiculous! Isaiah 42 was already established 500-600 years before Muhammad came along,
as about Jesus – Matthew 12:17-21
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Only 500-600 years before? You mean it wasn’t established before, like in the time of Isaiah? Lol!!
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Matthew 12:17-21 shows the prophesy was about Jesus the Messiah. At the time of Isaiah, it was about the Messiah – “My Servant”, but it was not as clear as when NT said it was about Jesus.
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Hi Ken.
It seems absurd that Faiz and others protest so much about finding hints of the trinity in the OT but will jump on board trying to find Muhammad in there. Hypocrisy much?
Especially so since the first century Jews already saw this prophecy fulfilled in Jesus.
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Indeed.
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LOL, are you trying to give Ken and Sam an aneurysm?
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We wouldn’t want that!
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“Matthew 12:17-21 shows the prophesy was about Jesus the Messiah. At the time of Isaiah, it was about the Messiah – “My Servant”, but it was not as clear as when NT said it was about Jesus.”
Huh? How the heck do you know that it was about the Messiah at the time of Isaiah? The text says no such thing. And the fact that Jews have disagrees amongst themselves as to the meaning of Isaiah 42, your claim that it was about the Messiah is a leap of faith.
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Paulus said:
“Hi Ken.
It seems absurd that Faiz and others protest so much about finding hints of the trinity in the OT but will jump on board trying to find Muhammad in there. Hypocrisy much?
Especially so since the first century Jews already saw this prophecy fulfilled in Jesus.”
Lol, here comes the hyperbole police! Officer Paulus, reporting for duty!
First of all, I haven’t said that I agree with the claim that Isaiah 42 talks about Muhammad (pbuh).
Second, I and others have poked holes in the Christian appeal to the Tanakh in hopes of finding the trinity. It simply isn’t there, so your attempted deflection doesnt work. Don’t blame me for the trinitarian failure!
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Also Paulus, perhaps you can tell us if pre-1st century Jews interpreted Isaiah 42 as referring to the Messiah. We already know that interpretations varied, so the claim that 1st century Jews already saw the prophecy fulfilled in Jesus is probably only partially true. 1st century Jews believed alot of things, such as believing that there was no resurrection (Saduccees). Does that necessarily mean that they were right? You apologists are a riot! Lol!
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I’m not sure I understand your point?
We know that first century Jews saw this prophecy fulfilled in Christ. Are you complaining because not every single Jew was convinced? So what? When is everybody convinced of the same thing, Christian, Jew, Muslim or otherwise?
I’m not sure of pre Christ interpretation. Maybe their is something in the dead as scrolls. I don’t know. But I do know what first century Jews thought, those that walked and talked with Jesus which is really the main point anyway.
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“I’m not sure I understand your point?
We know that first century Jews saw this prophecy fulfilled in Christ. Are you complaining because not every single Jew was convinced? So what? When is everybody convinced of the same thing, Christian, Jew, Muslim or otherwise?
I’m not sure of pre Christ interpretation. Maybe their is something in the dead as scrolls. I don’t know. But I do know what first century Jews thought, those that walked and talked with Jesus which is really the main point anyway.”
No, I’m complaining because you are making it sound as if the matter is settled just because some Jews in the 1st century believed that the prophecy was fulfilled in Christ. I pointed out that even if this was true, it doesn’t prove anything since 1st century Jews has many varieties of beliefs. The same Jews whom you point to also believed that Jesus was coming back in their lifetimes (there is no dispute regarding this among scholars), or so the NT suggests! Also, your entire premise that what SOME 1st century Jews thought is important because allegedly “walked and talked with Jesus” is simply a non-sequitur. You simply cannot prove that these Jews knew Jesus! Quoting the NT just turns it into a circular argument.
Historically, we know that the Jews themselves could not agree on the meaning of Isaiah 42. Rashi said that it referred to Israel itself. Ibn Ezra thought it was Cyrus the Great. Radak, another medieval commentator, thought it referred to the Messiah.
Incidentally, according to Islamic traditions, a Jewish convert to Islam named Ka’b al-Ahbar referred to Isaiah 42 as mentioning Muhammad (pbuh). Ka’b lived during the caliphate of Umar, but he did not actually meet Muhammad (pbuh).
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Fail
“No, I’m complaining because you are making it sound as if the matter is settled just because some Jews in the 1st century believed that the prophecy was fulfilled in Christ. I pointed out that even if this was true, it doesn’t prove anything since 1st century Jews has many varieties of beliefs. The same Jews whom you point to also believed that Jesus was coming back in their lifetimes (there is no dispute regarding this among scholars), or so the NT suggests! Also, your entire premise that what SOME 1st century Jews thought is important because allegedly “walked and talked with Jesus” is simply a non-sequitur. You simply cannot prove that these Jews knew Jesus! Quoting the NT just turns it into a circular argument.”
Mohammed could not tell the difference between a demon and an angel from god and had to be told by his wife – who never saw the demon herself – that this entity was an angel. When true prophets see god or his angels, they know. On this basis alone, mohammed cannot be a prophet of the true god.
Isaiah says nothing about confused arabian merchants who cannot tell the difference between a demon and an angel. In other words mohammed did not know god’s intercessor when he saw him. Isaiah predicts nothing like that. LOL!!!!
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The matter is settled for me. I’m referencing first century Jewish documents which connect Christ to that text. You on the other hand appeal to medieval thought and some random islamic tradition (hadith?) from centuries later in a different geographical location and culture.
I guess given your logic, we should distrust the Islamic texts and traditions because there was variety of thought amongst Muslims. Your arguments appear to be more bizarre with each topic.
Until next time…
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Paulus
“You on the other hand appeal to medieval thought and some random islamic tradition (hadith?) from centuries later in a different geographical location and culture.”
Also, the hadith have no historical value since we have almost no manuscripts from before the 11th century. Some guys made up most of the stories to bolster whatever political or social needs of the caliph at the time.
Fail
“ncidentally, according to Islamic traditions, a Jewish convert to Islam named Ka’b al-Ahbar referred to Isaiah 42 as mentioning Muhammad (pbuh). Ka’b lived during the caliphate of Umar, but he did not actually meet Muhammad (pbuh).”
“ISlamic traditions” are forgeries. Why should we put our trust in them?
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With the name of Allah
Prophet Muhammad method of receiving revelation follow the standard process of delivering God messages to hebrew prophets before him, that ‘God put His words in their mouth’ (Jeremiah 1:9). But prophets do not automatically recognise any celestial visitor God sent to them, when Jacob was attacked by ‘angelic’ attacker (Gen. 32:23-32) did he has any idea who was the attacker? when angels visit Abraham , he thought they were just honorable as important somehow as he treats them. But he did not they were angels.
In the case of prophet Jesus (p), at first not only that he could not tell the difference between demon and an angel from god, he was taken helplessly 3 times by demon teasing and tempting him in the wilderness as if he was only a toy in (Mat 4). Does it not make him any less prophet than other hebrew prophets?
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Eric
“Prophet Muhammad method of receiving revelation follow the standard process of delivering God messages to hebrew prophets before him, that ‘God put His words in their mouth’ (Jeremiah 1:9). But prophets do not automatically recognise any celestial visitor God sent to them, when Jacob was attacked by ‘angelic’ attacker (Gen. 32:23-32) did he has any idea who was the attacker? when angels visit Abraham , he thought they were just honorable as important somehow as he treats them. But he did not they were angels.
In the case of prophet Jesus (p), at first not only that he could not tell the difference between demon and an angel from god, he was taken helplessly 3 times by demon teasing and tempting him in the wilderness as if he was only a toy in (Mat 4). Does it not make him any less prophet than other hebrew prophets?”
Your brainwashing is strong – you are a perfect muslim.
Jeremiah’s words do nothing to prove that the entity that accosted mohammed in the cave was from god – and according to your own sources, satan puts words in mohammed’s mouth and mohammed couldn’t tell the difference. You’re not making any sense here.
As for Abraham and Jacob, what part of jacob asking for blessings makes you think that he did not know he was in the presence of god, and nowhere does gen 18.2+ suggest that abraham did not know he was being visited by god.
Are we reading from the same bible, or have you suddenly found this mysterious non-corrupted tawrat and injeel that has been missing since muslims discovered that their god wants them to believe the gospels?
You’ll have to do better Eric, that was pathetic and borderline taqiya, in my opinion.
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With the name of Allah
//Jeremiah’s words do nothing to prove that the entity that accosted mohammed in the cave was from god – and according to your own sources, satan puts words in mohammed’s mouth and mohammed couldn’t tell the difference. You’re not making any sense here.//
Oh yes, you don’t seem to know the method of receiving revelation of prophets.And by the way we muslims are obliged to recite Isti’adha, before reciting the Qur’an, ask any muslim! I do this everyday , what is Isti’adha? It’s in the Qur’an:
So according to your logic for satan puts words in which it condemns themselves in the lowest possible manner.
Also how can satan put something like to obey God and to desist those who say God is three, and condemning those who say a Prophet of God as God? an idolatry , a form of sin most abhorrent in the sight of God.
Think about it.
//As for Abraham and Jacob, what part of jacob asking for blessings makes you think that he did not know he was in the presence of god, and nowhere does gen 18.2+ suggest that abraham did not know he was being visited by god.//
vv. 6-8 describe Abraham busying himself to prepare food for his guests.
Do you think prophet Abraham was a fool so that he thought Angels or even ‘gods’ need food?!?
You have to learn a lot more.
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and btw you haven’t yet provided any explanation as to why in your scriptures demon was able toying with prophet Jesus (p) with ease, he looked helpless as the demon were taking him everywhere teasing and tempting him in the wilderness (Mat 4).
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Eric and Omar
All the biblical prophets knew they had been visited by god or his angels – none of them thought they had been possessed by a demon.
Eric
“Do you think prophet Abraham was a fool so that he thought Angels or even ‘gods’ need food?!?”
Abraham clearly knows that he is being visited by god and his angels – your objections are trite and clearly designed to deflect attention away from the fact that whoever you worship sent a being that was mistaken for a demon. Did khadija ever see this entity? And if not, how did she know it was from god?
No biblical prophet had to be convinced by humans that he had been visited by god – if you need to be told by other people who weren’t there when you claim to have had you visit, then it is likely you didn’t see god or his angels.
Even if Abraham had not known he had been in the presence of god, it in no way compares to mohammed’s belief that he had been possessed. Surely you can see the world of difference here?
And it is completely irrelevant that the true prophets of the bible became terrified when they saw god – none of them believed they had seen anything other than divinity.
“and btw you haven’t yet provided any explanation as to why in your scriptures demon was able toying with prophet Jesus (p) with ease, he looked helpless as the demon were taking him everywhere teasing and tempting him in the wilderness (Mat 4).”
Well, your question doesn’t make much sense and I’m not sure what you are getting at. Jesus’ encounter in the desert has nothing to do with mohammed not being able to tell good from evil.
“Also how can satan put something like to obey God and to desist those who say God is three, and condemning those who say a Prophet of God as God? an idolatry , a form of sin most abhorrent in the sight of God.”
Who says god is three? And how does this explain mohammed’s inability to tell that satan had infiltrated your god’s book and that he was preaching the devil’s word?
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Brother D, what makes the appeal to Jesus’ temptation so hilarious is that a careful reading of the texts show that it wasn’t Satan looking for Jesus, but Jesus looking for Satan at his weakest physical moment of his earthly life up until that time in order to prove that, even at his physically weakest, he was still too powerful and too much for Satan to handle:
“IMMEDIATELY THE SPIRIT DROVE HIM OUT INTO THE WILDERNESS. He was there in the wilderness forty days tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals; and the angels were serving him.” Mark 1:12-13
“Then Jesus WAS LED UP BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE WILDERNESS TO BE TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL. When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward. The tempter came and said to him, ‘If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.’ But he answered, “It is written, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”‘ Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, ‘He will put his angels in charge of you.’ and, “On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don’t dash your foot against a stone.”‘ Jesus said to him, ‘Again, it is written, “You shall not test the Lord, your God.”‘ Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory. He said to him, ‘I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me.’ Then Jesus said to him, ‘Get behind me, Satan! For it is written, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.”‘ Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and served him.” Matthew 4:1-11
“Jesus, FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, returned from the Jordan, AND WAS LED BY THE SPIRIT into the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by the devil. HE ATE NOTHING IN THOSE DAYS. Afterward, when they were completed, HE WAS HUNGRY. The devil said to him, ‘If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.’ Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.”‘” Luke 4:1-4
And yet you have Muhammad who was physically manhandled by a demon and who later came under the magical power of a demon who then made him hallucinate that he was having sex with his 9 wives, even though he never touched them!
Narrated Aisha:
Once the Prophet was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 400)
Narrated ‘Aisha:
Magic was worked on the Prophet so that he began to fancy that he was doing a thing which he was not actually doing. One day he invoked (Allah) for a long period and then said, “I feel that Allah has inspired me as how to cure myself. Two persons came to me (in my dream) and sat, one by my head and the other by my feet. One of them asked the other, “What is the ailment of this man?” The other replied, ‘He has been bewitched” The first asked, ‘Who has bewitched him?’ The other replied, ‘Lubaid bin Al-A’sam.’ The first one asked, ‘What material has he used?’ The other replied, ‘A comb, the hair gathered on it, and the outer skin of the pollen of the male date-palm.’ The first asked, ‘Where is that?’ The other replied, ‘It is in the well of Dharwan.’ ” So, the Prophet went out towards the well and then returned and said to me on his return, “Its date-palms (the date-palms near the well) are like the heads of the devils.” I asked, “Did you take out those things with which the magic was worked?” He said, “No, for I have been cured by Allah and I am afraid that this action may spread evil amongst the people.” Later on the well was filled up with earth. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 490)
Narrated ‘Aisha:
Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect)… (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 660)
To make matters worse the Islamic sources say that Muhammad’s condition lasted for at least six months or even nearly a year!
(Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind…) [114:1-6]. The commentators of the Qur’an said: “The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, had a Jewish servant boy. The Jews approached him and kept after him until he gave them some fallen hair from the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, as well as a few teeth from his comb. The Jews used these to cast a spell of black magic on him. The person who was behind this was the Jew Labid ibn al-A‘sam. He then put the hair in a well belonging to Banu Zurayq called Dharwan. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, fell ill for a period of six month, during which the hair of his head fell off; he imagined that he slept with his wives when he did not, and was withering away without knowing the reason. As he was one day sleeping, he saw two angels coming to him. One of them sat at his head and the other at his feet. The angel who sat at his head asked: ‘What is wrong with the man?’ The second angel responded: ‘A spell of black magic was cast on him’. The first one asked: ‘And who is responsible for this sorcery?’ The second angel answered: ‘It is Labid ibn al-A‘sam, the Jew’. The first angel asked again: ‘What did he use to cast black magic on him?’ The second angel said: ‘He used a comb and fallen hair’. The first angel asked: ‘Where is it now?’ The second angel said: ‘It is inside the spadix of a palm tree beneath the stepping stone which is inside the well of Dharwan’, at which point the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, woke up. He said: ‘O ‘A’ishah, do you not think that this is from Allah to inform me of the cause of my illness?’ He then sent ‘Ali [ibn Abi Talib], al-Zubayr [ibn al-‘Awwam] and ‘Ammar [ibn Yasir] who drained the water of that well as one would drain the dust of henna. They lifted the stone and got the spadix out and found therein some of the hair of the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, as well a few teeth from his comb. (‘Ali ibn Ahmad al-Wahidi, Asbab al-Nuzul, Q. 113-114)
From B. Zurayq: Labid b. A’sam who bewitched the apostle of God so that he could not come at his wives.1 (The Life of Muhammad, A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume [Karachi Oxford University Press, Karachi, Tenth Impression 1995), p. 240)
1 In commenting on this Suhayli asserts that the tradition is sound and is accepted by the traditionists. He found in the Jami’ of Mu‘ammar b. Rashad (a work which I cannot find mentioned by Brockelmann) the statement THAT THE SPELL LASTED FOR A YEAR. He adds that the Mu‘tazila and Modernists rejected the tradition ON THE GROUND THAT PROPHETS COULD NOT BE BEWITCHED OTHERWISE THEY WOULD COMMIT SIN and that would be contrary to the word of God ‘And God will protect thee from men’ (5.71). He finds the tradition unassailable. It is properly attested and intellectually acceptable. The prophets were not preserved from bodily afflictions in which category sorcery falls. (Ibid.)
Unfortunately for the Sunni Muslims here, the Mutazilites and modernists are right that no true prophet of God could ever come under the bewitchment of Satan.
And these Muhammadans have the audacity to the shame and demonization of their profit with Christ’s glorious victory the evil one where he sent him fleeing like a coward!
With the foregoing in perspective here are some questions for these followers of Muhammad to answer:
Why didn’t Allah prevent Muhammad from being controlled by magic if the Quran is correct that Satan will not affect those that are righteous before Allah?
Moreover, what was Muhammad actually doing during the entire year that he thought he was sleeping with his wives? After all, for him to believe he was really having sex implies that he was pleasuring himself in some manner otherwise how could he think that he was actually engaging in intercourse? Isn’t this rather humiliating?
And why would Allah humiliate his prophet in such a way, allowing him to think he was having sex when he really wasn’t, thereby shaming him in front of the Muslims and unbelievers?
Moreover, why would Allah allow Muhammad’s wives to go on without having sex with their husband for nearly a year? What kind of god is this that would actually permit a man to neglect his marital duties with his spouses when he could have simply healed him from the very start?
Do Muslims really want non-Muslims to believe that for an entire year Muhammad wasn’t receiving “revelations” when he was under this state? Can any Muslim provide a conclusive statement from the Islamic texts which say that he wasn’t being inspired during this period of time that Satan had him under his control?
Wouldn’t this imply that Satan is more powerful than Allah seeing that he was able to bewitch Muhammad for nearly a year even though the Quran says that he wouldn’t be able to harm Allah’s righteous servants?
Or should we assume that Muhammad wasn’t righteous enough and was in fact a deviator, which explains why Allah would allow him to be so humiliated by the devil?
We will let Muhammad’s devotees sort out this mess.
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Paul’s Pal
Those are great points.
Jesus was fully aware of what was happening to him – unlike mohammed who just could not figure out the good from the evil.
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With the name of Allah
D://And it is completely irrelevant that the true prophets of the bible became terrified when they saw god – none of them believed they had seen anything other than divinity.//
No biblical prophets did not automatically understand any revelation given to them via angels, the fact is Abraham was preparing food for them is clear indication. Or when pophet Jacob had wrestled because he did not get an answer from the being. Also prophet Zechariah, he could not believe the *angel’s message and even it made him unable to speak (and probably to hear) I am sure he was also given assurance by elizabeth .
In the bible there were many false prophets who proclaim falsehood without even asking anyone else confirmation on what they have encountered.
In the case of holy Prophet Muhammad (p), it is a prophetic quality that his first time experience he was humble enough to check with his wife about his situation. As a very close person to the Prophet, Khadija immediately knew if demon was anything to do with it. But no instead she said emphatically كَلاَّ أَبْشِرْ “Nay, that is good tidings !” Even so she double check it again with a priest, a pious person., look what he said:هَذَا النَّامُوسُ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ عَلَى مُوسَى “This is the same revelation who was given to Moses .” So his experience were attested by multiple person not just one claim. Anybody can claim anything from God including the demon without attestation.
“and btw you haven’t yet provided any explanation as to why in your scriptures demon was able toying with prophet Jesus (p) with ease, he looked helpless as the demon were taking him everywhere teasing and tempting him in the wilderness (Mat 4).”
D://Well, your question doesn’t make much sense and I’m not sure what you are getting at. Jesus’ encounter in the desert has nothing to do with mohammed not being able to tell good from evil.//
It could only mean (if you trust the story) that not only prophet Jesus could not tell good from evil he was overcame by evil. He was helpless by evil. This is not genuine prophetic quality.
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Shame-on
As always you dont know what you are talking about, the word used pneuma (strong 4151) is exactly the same word which mean demon or evil spirits, who were conceived of as inhabiting the bodies of men: as in Mark 9:20 and many other places.
While in the case of Prophet Muhammad encounter with powerful magic , God made him infallible before this spell was cast, during it and afterwards. The spell did no more than make the Prophet think that he had had intercourse with his wives when he had not done so; it was repelled not having long time effect or cursed like other biblical prophets like Solomon see Jeremiah 22:30.
So according to your scripture, Jesus was lead by demon, no resistance and helpless while prophet Muhammad were always protected by God in repelling demons.
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Daniel trembles with fear
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+10&version=NKJV
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Daniel terrified of Gabriel
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+8&version=KJV
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“As Gabriel approached the place where I was standing, I became so terrified that I fell with my face to the ground. “Son of man,” he said, “you must understand that the events you have seen in your vision relate to the time of the end.” Daniel 8:17
“And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.”
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OUCH! That must hurt Fido! LOL!!!
Great job, brother Omar!
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Fido barked:
“Mohammed could not tell the difference between a demon and an angel from god and had to be told by his wife – who never saw the demon herself – that this entity was an angel. When true prophets see god or his angels, they know. On this basis alone, mohammed cannot be a prophet of the true god.
Isaiah says nothing about confused arabian merchants who cannot tell the difference between a demon and an angel. In other words mohammed did not know god’s intercessor when he saw him. Isaiah predicts nothing like that. LOL!!!!”
LOL!!! Again, you’re deflecting? Good Lord, Fido! You must really be desperate!
I schooled you on this matter before. Jacob wrestled with an unknown individual who ended up injuring him! Not only that, but this mysterious person didn’t even know Jacob’s name! LOL!!! And you’re complaining about the Prophet Muhammad’s encounter with Gabriel? Wake up and smell the coffee, you pathetic chihuahua! LOL!!!
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Fail
“I schooled you on this matter before. Jacob wrestled with an unknown individual who ended up injuring him! Not only that, but this mysterious person didn’t even know Jacob’s name! LOL!!! And you’re complaining about the Prophet Muhammad’s encounter with Gabriel? Wake up and smell the coffee, you pathetic chihuahua! LOL!!!”
I don’t agree that you are capable of schooling anyone. LOL!!
But did jacob mistake this “mysterious” person for a demon? Did jacob think he had been possessed? Did jacob have to be told by another human being who had not witnessed the event that he had encountered god? Is your god so inept that he can’t make his presence or the presence of his angels obvious? LOL!!
Did any of god’s true prophets ever try to commit suicide after their encounters with angelic beings? Does god and those who serve him cause people to have suicidal thoughts when delivering messages?
If the answer is no, then islam has a big problem. LOL!!!
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Paulus said:
“The matter is settled for me. I’m referencing first century Jewish documents which connect Christ to that text. You on the other hand appeal to medieval thought and some random islamic tradition (hadith?) from centuries later in a different geographical location and culture.
I guess given your logic, we should distrust the Islamic texts and traditions because there was variety of thought amongst Muslims. Your arguments appear to be more bizarre with each topic.
Until next time…”
Well, of course it’s settled for you! That’s what I expect from apologists!
I think it’s laughable for you to claim that you are “referencing first century Jewish documents”. I hate to disappoint you but you are actually referencing CHRISTIAN documents that claim that Jews believed such and such. And as I said before, these same sources also believed that Jesus would return in their lifetimes. We know they were wrong about that! Your entire premise is based on several assumptions, so while it may be “settled” for you, reasonable people know that it is FAR from being settled.
There is nothing more bizarre than Christian non-sequiturs! LOL!!
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Paulus, here is another example (besides wrongly believing that Jesus would return in their lifetime) of alleged “first century Jews” misreading the Tanakh to find “prophecies” about Jesus:
“And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son”” (Matthew 2:15).
This “prophecy” was allegedly mentioned by the prophet Hosea, but when we read Hosea 11, it becomes crystal clear that the prophecy was about the nation of Israel and NOT the Messiah!
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. But the more they were called, the more they went away from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images” (Hosea 11:1-2).
So we can see that these Jews had a very bad track record of misquoting the Tanakh to suit their agendas. There is no hint that Hosea 11 is Messianic in any way, yet somehow, your “first century Jews” saw one phrase taken out of context as a “prophecy” for their god-man Messiah! How you or any other Christian can buy into this is bizarre!
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“I hate to disappoint you but you are actually referencing CHRISTIAN documents that claim that Jews believed such and such.”
The canonical gospel of Matthew was written by a Jew for Jews- ask any scholar. Better yet, just read a NT intro on the topic.
And yet you still think and Islamic tradition from Arabia 6 or more centuries later is a better witness? C’mon now…
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Fido barked:
“Paulus
“You on the other hand appeal to medieval thought and some random islamic tradition (hadith?) from centuries later in a different geographical location and culture.”
Also, the hadith have no historical value since we have almost no manuscripts from before the 11th century. Some guys made up most of the stories to bolster whatever political or social needs of the caliph at the time.
Fail
“ncidentally, according to Islamic traditions, a Jewish convert to Islam named Ka’b al-Ahbar referred to Isaiah 42 as mentioning Muhammad (pbuh). Ka’b lived during the caliphate of Umar, but he did not actually meet Muhammad (pbuh).”
“ISlamic traditions” are forgeries. Why should we put our trust in them?”
LOL!!! You really can’t teach an old dog new tricks! This is as true with you Fido as any other dog! Have you looked into Harald Motzki and Fuat Sezgin? I know you keep ignoring my advice because you’re afraid! The works of these scholars prove that the Ahadith are historically reliable, you dingbat! Hmmm…who should we believe? Respected scholars or Canis ignoramus? Man, that’s a tough one!
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“and btw you haven’t yet provided any explanation as to why in your scriptures demon was able toying with prophet Jesus (p) with ease, he looked helpless as the demon were taking him everywhere teasing and tempting him in the wilderness (Mat 4).”
LOL!! Poor, deluded Christians! Their “god” was helpless against the devil. Not to mention that the devil somehow managed to show the Christian god all the kingdoms of the earth from a very high mountain! I guess they didn’t realize that they weren’t seeing the entire earth, since the earth isn’t flat! Ouch!!!
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Apparently, it is lost on Paulus, Ken Temple and D that the Gospels shaped Jesus according to OT prophecies.
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Excellent point! But then again fundamentalists are blind to many features of the Bible.
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Very true! It’s just plain silly when you think about it.
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The fact you think that KGETSSMACKEDDOWN made an excellent point shows how dishonest you truly are, since you would never tolerate such nonsense if it were leveled against your profit. I guess its better than what your profit did, namely shaping the lives of the prophets to resemble in order to deceive his pawns to think he was a true prophet who experienced the same things that other prophets experienced: http://www.answeringislam.net/Quran/Sources/allprophets.html
Now let’s see how the Jews interpreted Isaiah 42, Jews who had every reason to deny the messianic significance of Isaiah 42 in light of the Christians’ use of this text to prove the Messiahship of Jesus:
Midrash on Psalms, Psalm 2:9
In the decree of the Prophets it is written Behold My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high (Isa. 52:13), and it is also written Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth (Isa. 42:1). In the decree of the Writings it is written, The Lord said unto my lord: “Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool” (Ps. 110:1), and it is also written I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought before Him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him (Dan. 7:13, 14).
In another comment, the verse is read I will tell of the decree: The Lord said unto me: Thou art My son … Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession (Ps. 2:7, 8). R. Yudan said: All these goodly promises are in the decree of the King, the King of kings, who will fulfill them for the Lord MESSIAH (The Midrash on Psalms, William G. Braude, Translator (New Haven: Yale, 959), Yale Judaica Series, Volume XIII, Leon Nemoy, Editor, Book One, Psalm 2:9)
Here the rabbis applied Psalm 2:7-8, 110:1, Isaiah 42:1, 52:113 and Daniel 7:13-14 to the Messiah!
Midrash on Psalms, Psalm 42/43.5
For from what didst Thou redeem our fathers in Egypt? Was it not from the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppressed them, of which God said: Moreover, I have seen the oppression (Ex. 3:9)? For me, too, life is nothing but oppression by an enemy. Then Why must I go about myself mourning under oppression of the enemy? Didst Thou not send redemption at the hand of two redeemers to that generation, as is said He sent Moses His servant, and Aaron whom He had chosen (Ps. 105:26)? Send tow redeemers like them to this generation. O send out Thy light and Thy truth; let them lead me (Ps. 43:3), Thy light being the prophet Elijah of the house of Aaron, of which it is written “The seven lamps shall give light in front of the candlestick” (Num. 8:2); and Thy truth being the Messiah, son of David, as it is written “The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; He will not turn from it: of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne” (Ps. 132:11). Likewise Scripture says, Behold I will send you Elijah the Prophet (Mal. 3:23) who is one redeemer, and speaks of the second redeemer in the verse Behold My servant whom I uphold (Isa. 42:1) (Ibid., Psalm 42/43.5, p. 445).
Targum Jonathan
Behold, My servant, THE MESSIAH, whom I bring near, My chosen one, in whom MY MEMRA [Sam- Aramaic for Word] takes delight; I will place My holy spirit upon him, and he shall reveal My law to the nations, He shall not cry, nor shout, nor raise his voice on the outside. The humble, who are like the bruised reed, he shall not break, and the poor of My people, who are like candles, he shall not extinguish; he shall truly bring forth justice. He shall not faint and he shall not tire until he establishes justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his Torah. Thus says the God of the universe, the Lord, who created the heavens and suspended them, who established the earth and its inhabitants, who gives life to the people who are upon it and spirit to those who walk in it. “I, the Lord, have anointed you in righteousness, and have firmly taken you by the hand, and established you, and I have given you as a covenant of the people, as a light of the nations. To open the eyes of the house of Israel, who have been blind to the Torah; to bring back their Dispersions from among the nations, they, who are like prisoners; and to deliver them, who are imprisoned like prisoners in darkness, from the servitude of the empires. I am the Lord, that is My name, and My glory, which I have revealed unto you, I will not give to any other people, nor My praise to those who worship idols. The former things, behold, they have come to pass, and new things I declare; even before they occur I announce them to you” (The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, Samson H. Levy (New York: Hebrew Union College, 1974), pp. 59-60).
These quotes show that the rabbis had no problem identifying the servant as the Messiah even though reference is made to Kedar!
Here is what the rabbis said about the title Branch, along with their interpretation of the passages from Jeremiah and Zechariah:
Targum Jonathan
… Behold the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will raise up for David a righteous Messiah, and he shall reign as king, and prosper, and shall enact a righteous and Meritorious law in the land. In his days they of the house of Judah shall be delivered, and Israel shall live in security. And this is the name which they call him: “May vindication be accomplished for us by the Lord in his day.”’ (The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, Samson H. Levy)
Targum Jonathan
Say unto him: Thus says the Lord of Hosts saying: ‘Be hold the man whose name is “The Messiah.” He is destined to be revealed and to be anointed, and he shall build the Temple of the Lord. He shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he will bear the radiance, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and there shall be a high priest on his throne, and there be a counsel of peace between the two of them.’ (Ibid.)
Midrash Rabbah, Lamentations
BECAUSE THE COMFORTER IS FAR FROM ME, EVEN HE THAT SHOULD REFRESH MY SOUL. What is the name of King Messiah? R. Abba b. Kahana said: His name is ‘the Lord’; as it is stated And this is the name whereby he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness (Jer. XXIII, 6). For R. Levi said: It is good for a province when its name is identical with that of its king, and the name of its king identical with that of its God. ‘It is good for a province when its name is identical with that of its king,’ as it is written, And the name of the city from that day shall be the Lord is there (Ezek. XLVIII, 35). ‘And the name of its king is identical with that of its God’ as it is stated, And this is the name whereby he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness: R. Joshua b. Levi said: His name is ‘Shoot’, as it is stated, Behold, a man whose name is Shoot, and who shall shoot up out of his place, and build the temple of the Lord (Zech. VI, 12). R. Judan said in the name of R. Aibu: His name is ‘Comforter’, as it is said, THE COMFORTER IS FAR FROM ME. R. Hanina said: They do not really differ, because the numerical value of the names is the same, so that ‘Comforter’ is identical with ‘Shoot’ (Midrash Rabbah, Lamentations (London: Soncino Press), I.16, 51, pp. 135-136).
Midrash on Psalms, Psalm 2:2
God will call the king Messiah after His own name, for it is said of the king Messiah This is his name whereby he shall be called: The Lord our righteousness (Jer. 23:6). (The Midrash on Psalms, William G. Braude, Book One, Psalm 2.2).
(The preceding were taken from pp. 200-201, 205-206 of William Webster’s superb book, “Behold Your King: Prophetic Proofs That Jesus Is the Messiah”.)
Now here is my challenge to all of you. CITE JUST ONE SINGLE NON-CHRISTIAN JEWISH SOURCE THAT INTERPRETED ISAIAH 42 AS A PROPHECY OF A PROPHET COMING OUT OF ARABIA, SPECIFICALLY FROM THE VILLAGES OF KEDAR.
I won’t be holding my breath.
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Correction:
“… namely shaping the lives of the prophets to resemble in order to deceive his pawns to think…” = “… namely shaping the lives of the prophets to resemble his own, in order to deceive his pawns into thinking…”
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Poor Shamoun. As idiotic as ever.
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Paulus said:
“The canonical gospel of Matthew was written by a Jew for Jews- ask any scholar. Better yet, just read a NT intro on the topic.
And yet you still think and Islamic tradition from Arabia 6 or more centuries later is a better witness? C’mon now…”
Oh good Lord. This isn’t that difficult to understand. The author of the gospel of Matthew was a Christian, correct? In other words, he had converted to Christianity? Therefore, the gospel of Matthew is a CHRISTIAN document, yes? C’mon now…put two and two together.
And again, as I already pointed out, this “Jewish” author clearly misquoted the Tanakh in many places, due to his overzealous need to find “prophecies” about Jesus in the book. I notice that you keep ignoring this little tid-bit. I wonder why…
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When one has to rely upon a false dichotomy and apply completely fabricated and unknowable intent to an author the way you have, it is surely a good indication of a biased and flawed argument.
Originally you told me that there was just different Jewish interpretations (by appeal to medieval thought ironically) but now you are telling us he misquoted the tanakh. Which is it? What ever suits your particular argument at the time no doubt.
And your still relying upon an Arabic tradition from over 600 years later?
I really just don’t understand the inconsistency Muslims continually rely upon. It is astounding!
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Fido barked:
“All the biblical prophets knew they had been visited by god or his angels – none of them thought they had been possessed by a demon.”
LOL!! That’s because demons are not a major component of the Tanakh, you dingbat! In fact, there doesn’t seem to be any emphasis in Jewish thought, besides non-canonical references, on demons. But what we do know is that even your god and his angels were ignorant. When “God” or an “angel” wrestled with Jacob, he didn’t even know Jacob’s name!
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Fail
None of the biblical prophets mistook god or his angels for demons – they knew they had encountered god and his angels. Never did they mistake god for evil.
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Fido barked:
“I don’t agree that you are capable of schooling anyone. LOL!!
But did jacob mistake this “mysterious” person for a demon? Did jacob think he had been possessed? Did jacob have to be told by another human being who had not witnessed the event that he had encountered god? Is your god so inept that he can’t make his presence or the presence of his angels obvious? LOL!!
Did any of god’s true prophets ever try to commit suicide after their encounters with angelic beings? Does god and those who serve him cause people to have suicidal thoughts when delivering messages?
If the answer is no, then islam has a big problem. LOL!!!”
LOL!!! Once cornered, Fido moves the goal post! So now, the fact that Jacob didn’t think he had been possessed somehow solves the problem? Don’t make me laugh! Ooops, too late!
Your god was so inept that he or his “angel” didn’t know who Jacob was! Not only that, but Jacob was able to overpower him very easily! Its seems the Biblical angels were a bunch of sissies and weaklings! Even Gabriel had trouble with a Persian and only after he was helped by Michael was he able to do his work:
“But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia” (Daniel 10:13).
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Failor
“Once cornered, Fido moves the goal post! So now, the fact that Jacob didn’t think he had been possessed somehow solves the problem? Don’t make me laugh! Ooops, too late!”
That’s bad tracking even for you. The problem is that your prophet could not tell the difference between good and evil beings – not that he became afraid or that he did not recognize an angel to be an angel. He thought he had encountered a demon, and that he had been possessed. Furthermore, he did not notice when satan told him that praying to pagan gods was acceptable.
I’m not moving the goalposts but you are deflecting. No prophet of the bible would predict such messenger – all of god’s messengers knew god when they saw him. So Isaiah could not possibly have been talking about mohammed. LOL!!
“Even Gabriel had trouble with a Persian and only after he was helped by Michael was he able to do his work:
“But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia” ”
The stupid strikes white hot yet again! LOL!! What on earth are you talking about?
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Fido barked:
“Fail
None of the biblical prophets mistook god or his angels for demons – they knew they had encountered god and his angels. Never did they mistake god for evil.”
LOL, you really are a broken record! Your god told people to lie and lied himself! Don’t you see? Your Bible mistook God for an evil, lying deity! You should be shocked!
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Sad Fail
“you really are a broken record! Your god told people to lie and lied himself! Don’t you see? Your Bible mistook God for an evil, lying deity! You should be shocked!”
Is it possible that you have performed taqiya to yourself? Lying to yourself to keep the faith alive in your angry heart?!!!LOL!!
It really is easy Fail – how can a prophet of god not know god’s servants when he encounters them? Even worse, how can he mistake them for evil creatures?
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Fido barked:
“That’s bad tracking even for you. The problem is that your prophet could not tell the difference between good and evil beings – not that he became afraid or that he did not recognize an angel to be an angel. He thought he had encountered a demon, and that he had been possessed. Furthermore, he did not notice when satan told him that praying to pagan gods was acceptable.
I’m not moving the goalposts but you are deflecting. No prophet of the bible would predict such messenger – all of god’s messengers knew god when they saw him. So Isaiah could not possibly have been talking about mohammed. LOL!!”
LOL!!! Yes, you are moving the goalpost, you idiot. First, you said that Muhammad (pbuh) could not be prophet because he didn’t know who he had encountered. When you were schooled in the matter and shown that even Biblical prophets sometimes didn’t know, you shifted gears and made a new complaint! LOL!!! How desperate are you?
“The stupid strikes white hot yet again! LOL!! What on earth are you talking about?”
LOL!!! The stupid chihuahua can’t understand English now? I said that your Biblical angels couldn’t even overpower weak men! Not only that, but they were abhorrently ignorant! Jacob’s wrestler didn’t know his name!
Yes indeed…the stupid strikes white hot yet again and the chihuahua gets burned! Ouch!
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Fail
“First, you said that Muhammad (pbuh) could not be prophet because he didn’t know who he had encountered. When you were schooled in the matter and shown that even Biblical prophets sometimes didn’t know, you shifted gears and made a new complaint! LOL!!! How desperate are you?”
You are the Barcelona of tiki-taqiya. I said that he could not tell the difference between and angel of god and a demon. You don’t read too good. LOL!!!
“I said that your Biblical angels couldn’t even overpower weak men! Not only that, but they were abhorrently ignorant! Jacob’s wrestler didn’t know his name!”
And how does that save your religion from the charge that it was started by a guy who thought he had been visited by a demon? Your interpretations of the bible are stupid but that won’t change this awkward fact. LOL!!!
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Fido barked:
“Is it possible that you have performed taqiya to yourself? Lying to yourself to keep the faith alive in your angry heart?!!!LOL!!
It really is easy Fail – how can a prophet of god not know god’s servants when he encounters them? Even worse, how can he mistake them for evil creatures?”
LOL!! Deflecting again? Oh man, your deceitful god’s influence is strong in you!
Fido can’t answer any questions about his cult and his god and instead resorts to pathetic deflections! I repeat:
Your god told people to lie and lied himself! Don’t you see? Your Bible mistook God for an evil, lying deity! You should be shocked!
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Fido barked:
“You are the Barcelona of tiki-taqiya. I said that he could not tell the difference between and angel of god and a demon. You don’t read too good. LOL!!!”
LOL!!! No, originally you had complained that Muhammad did not know who he had encountered! Think back, Fido! You know you said that! Your lying god can’t save you!
“And how does that save your religion from the charge that it was started by a guy who thought he had been visited by a demon? Your interpretations of the bible are stupid but that won’t change this awkward fact. LOL!!!”
LOL!!! It exposes the silliness of your Bible! Will you try to save your so-called “inspired” book?
Your book wants us to believe that angels could be so powerful as to destroy an entire army but then so weak as to be unable to overpower a poor shepherd! Contradiction much?
Do you have answer for once, Fido? Or will you continue to deflect due to your desperation? LOL!!!
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Fail
Still no answer for why your god’s servants are indistinguishable from demons? AGain, all you have to do is show me where god is ever mistaken for a demon in the true holy books the we can talk about whether it is possible for someone who could not recognize god’s servants could ever be prophesied by his true prophets.
And how does khadija know what mohammed encountered in the cave? She wasn’t there, you fool. LOL!!! And why did mohammed believe her when he also revealed that your god thinks women’s testimony is worth only half of a man’s?
“Your book wants us to believe that angels could be so powerful as to destroy an entire army but then so weak as to be unable to overpower a poor shepherd! Contradiction much?”
LOL!! The dumb gets dumber! Why does your god think that meteors and comets are actually projectiles aimed at demons?
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D: And how does that save your religion from the charge that it was started by a guy who thought he had been visited by a demon?
Why would a demon teach Muhammad(saw) to eschew polytheism given that according to Jesus a demon won’t do anything that would result in the kingdom of Satan being divided? BTW, you still haven’t cited a single study in support of the claim that there are Quranic manuscripts which predate Muhammad(saw). You are such a joke, D.
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Good response brother Kmak!
Fido just keeps running when he gets cornered. LOL!!
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kmak
that’s easy kmak – satan desires the throne of god. He wants to be the “one” but he can only be the one through imitation. What better way to fool people into turning away from the truth than to set himself up as the “one”?
Satan doesn’t want you worshiping idols either, he wants you to worship him – and so he fools people into thinking he is god, and that the true god is lying to them. Doesn’t it concern you that your god’s servants are indistinguishable from demons?
“you still haven’t cited a single study in support of the claim that there are Quranic manuscripts which predate Muhammad(saw)”
Actually kmak, the deal was that you would post a study supporting the claim that there exists an injeel that proves islam and I would post a study showing the quran predates mohammed. I’m still waiting – you are such a joke.
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D: Satan doesn’t want you worshiping idols either, he wants you to worship him
Once again, it is apparent that you don’t read your own bible. In 1 Corinthians 10:14,20 , Paul says that participating in idol worship is tantamount to worshiping demons. Thus, if idolatry strengthens demons then it cannot be that a demon inspired Muhammad(saw) since that would cause the kingdom of Satan being divided as per Jesus. You fail again, D.
D: Actually kmak, the deal was that you would post a study supporting the claim that there exists an injeel that proves islam and I would post a study showing the quran predates mohammed. I’m still waiting – you are such a joke.
It is clear you haven’t read the Quran, much less reading works on Quranic scholarship. While it is obvious that you don’t keep up with biblical scholarship, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you haven’t really read the bible that you are a doing a really bad job of defending. You truly are a joke of a troll, D.
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Kmak
“Paul says that participating in idol worship is tantamount to worshiping demons. ”
that doesn’t contradict anything I said. Satan wants you to think there is only one and that one is him – idolatry distracts from the true god, and may well be satanically inspired, but at the end of the day satan covets god’s throne.
“Thus, if idolatry strengthens demons then it cannot be that a demon inspired Muhammad(saw) since that would cause the kingdom of Satan being divided as per Jesus.”
Actually, that explains nothing – no true prophet mistook god or his servants for demons and satan declaring his “oneness” in no way divides him nor his kingdom. In fact, the opposite would seem to be true – all people under one religious faith, worshiping the “one” whose revelation came through a being that seemed demonic. I’ll pass on that one!
“While it is obvious that you don’t keep up with biblical scholarship, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you haven’t really read the bible that you are a doing a really bad job of defending.”
Now that’s what I call a fighting retreat! I’m willing to play this game that you guys like to play. Just post a study supporting the claim that there exists an injeel that proves islam and I will post a study showing that the quran predates islam. It’s perfectly fair – but I think we both know that I have a far better chance of proving my case than you do.
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D: that doesn’t contradict anything I said. Satan wants you to think there is only one and that one is him – idolatry distracts from the true god, and may well be satanically inspired, but at the end of the day satan covets god’s throne.
There are numerous verses in the bible condemning idolatry, even explicitly associating it with demons; yet, you are not entirely sure if idolatry is satanically inspired? Man, you really effed up this one.
D:… satan declaring his “oneness” in no way divides him nor his kingdom.
Sure, Satan can declare his oneness. But you are suggesting that Satan inspired Muhammad(saw) to fight against idolatry which your own book associates with demon worship. Thus, by your logic Satan inspired Muhammad(saw) to drive out Satan and again by your own book this is not possible. Since you don’t read the bible, let me quote the relevant saying of Jesus: If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? (Matthew 12:26).
D: Just post a study supporting the claim that there exists an injeel that proves islam and I will post a study showing that the quran predates islam.
You have no idea how the academic study of religion works, do you? Man, you are one ignorant troll that loves to embarrass himself. Since you are too proud to admit you effed up, let me educate you. There are no studies in support of the claim that there exist Quranic manuscripts that predate Muhammad(saw).
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kmak
“There are numerous verses in the bible condemning idolatry, even explicitly associating it with demons; yet, you are not entirely sure if idolatry is satanically inspired? Man, you really effed up this one.”
You wish I effed it up. LOL!!!
I didn’t say “I don’t know” whether it is satanically inspired – idolatry deflects from the true god, which is implicitly in satan’s interests, but it doesn’t mean that people are intentionally of knowingly worshiping evil. Hope that makes it clearer.
“Sure, Satan can declare his oneness. But you are suggesting that Satan inspired Muhammad(saw) to fight against idolatry which your own book associates with demon worship. ”
The true god, Yahweh was only truly known to the israelites until jesus death and resurrection after which the good news of his mercy, love, and triune oneness was revealed to the world.
Prior to that satan didn’t need to create a monotheism of his own since most people were already in the darkness and ignorant of the true god. What better way to lead people astray than to say “I’m the true ‘one’” so it makes sense that his servants – whatever accosted mohammed in the cave – would turn people away from idolatry.
The problem you have is that mohammed was spiritually suspect – he did not know god’s servants and thought they were demons, he fell victim to spells, and he did not know that satan had tricked him into revealing the satanic verses.
You do the math – when you add all this together it is impossible to be certain what was satanic and what was not.
“You have no idea how the academic study of religion works, do you? Man, you are one ignorant troll that loves to embarrass himself. Since you are too proud to admit you effed up, let me educate you. There are no studies in support of the claim that there exist Quranic manuscripts that predate Muhammad(saw).”
More backflips? It is really easy and fair, kmak. Just post a study that shows there exists an injeel that proves jesus taught islam and I’ll post studies showing that parts of the quran predate mohammed.
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Paulus said:
“When one has to rely upon a false dichotomy and apply completely fabricated and unknowable intent to an author the way you have, it is surely a good indication of a biased and flawed argument.
Originally you told me that there was just different Jewish interpretations (by appeal to medieval thought ironically) but now you are telling us he misquoted the tanakh. Which is it? What ever suits your particular argument at the time no doubt.
And your still relying upon an Arabic tradition from over 600 years later?
I really just don’t understand the inconsistency Muslims continually rely upon. It is astounding!”
Oh please. Don;t act all high and mighty and accuse others of having “a biased and flawed argument”. Given your heavy Christian biases, it seems to me that this is just an example of the pot calling the kettle black. LOL!
You’re getting confused, Paulus. I said that Isaiah 42 was interpreted differently. I also said that the “Jews” of the 1st century clearly misquoted the Tanakh, as in the example of Hosea 11, Learn to read people’s statements carefully before making silly straw man arguments. 😉
It is astounding how you keep ignoring the evidence I have given of the unreliability of your so-called “first century Jews”. It seems you desperately want to ignore any evidence that questions your pre-concieved Christian biases. Astounding indeed!
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” I said that Isaiah 42 was interpreted differently”
Yes, your “evidence” was from medieval sources and an Arabic Islamic tradition. I remember well. Completely irrelevant sources, but I remember.
I’ll stick with what the earliest sources teach, thanks.
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How can I get this book? tried it in Amazon Kindle it says: “This title is not currently available for purchase”
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Sorry but where are you from?
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Indonesia
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Please open the Indonesian website of amazon and search the book on that. Hopefully, it will be available for purchase.
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No there is no amazon Indonesia
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Paulus said:
“Yes, your “evidence” was from medieval sources and an Arabic Islamic tradition. I remember well. Completely irrelevant sources, but I remember.
I’ll stick with what the earliest sources teach, thanks.”
LOL, oh by all means stick with your preconceived notions. We’re all very impressed!
I notice that you have yet to comment on the clear errors these so-called “earliest sources” committed, such as by misquoting Hosea 11. Oh well, I guess it cant be helped. Your bias prevents you from admitting that you might be wrong.
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I don’t see them as errors. Pretty simple really, wasn’t it. No need to get sidetracked my friend
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Salaam. First of all I thank Paul Williams for sharing my book on his blog. I hope he reads it and gives his valuable feedback. I also wish to respond to some of the comments made here trying to deny this prophecy as applying to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
It has been said that the Jews interpret this prophecy applying to the Messiah. Therefore, the case is settled and there’s no room for any new interpretation. This line of argument is strange because the Jews interpreted the Messianic prophecies in a different way as Christians did. Not to mention that the Jews did not accept Jesus (pbuh) as the Messiah precisely based on their own interpretations. Within the Gospels, Jesus (pbuh) can be seen challenging the Jewish interpretation on a number of Scriptural passages. Therefore, to appeal to the Jewish interpretations as something infallible is a weak line of argument.
Regarding the fact that the author of Mathew’s Gospel has applied it to Jesus (pbuh), there are a number of problems. A comparative study of Isaiah 1-4 and the citation in Matthew 12:18-21 reveals some deliberate revisions and omissions by the author of Matthew’s Gospel to make it applicable to Jesus (pbuh).
Citing Isaiah 42:1 Matthew deliberately adds ὁ ἀγαπητός μου (my beloved) to harmonize the scene in Matthew 12 with those of baptism and transfiguration (see mark 1:11 and 9:7). The most prominent difference can be seen between Matthew 12:20-21 and Isaiah 42:4. The author of Matthew has omitted the following lines from Isaiah 42:4, ” he will not grow faint of be discouraged till he has established judgment on earth”. This he has done because he knows that these lines were incompatible with what happened to Jesus (pbuh).
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To begin with, you need to learn to avoid attacking straw man and learn to properly represent the point being made. First, Paul Williams is notorious for appealing to the interpretation proffered by disbelieving Jews to call into question the Christian exegesis of OT texts as they apply to Jesus. Therefore, if Williams is going to be consistent he must reject your thesis on the same grounds, namely, no Jew who isn’t a Christian or Muslim takes Isaiah 42 to be a prophecy of an Arab prophet.
This brings me to my next point. The very fact that Jewish exegesis of OT texts often conflict with the Christian interpretation only reinforces my point that Isaiah 42 cannot be referring to an Arab prophet, since even disbelieving Jews had no choice but to accept this as a prophecy of the coming Messiah. If they could they would have denied its Messianic significance, but they couldn’t see it was even obvious to them that the plain reading of Isalah 42 in light of Isaiah as a whole shows that the Servant cannot be anyone other than the Messiah.
In light of this fact, let me reissue my challenge to you. Please cite a single Jewish source before, during or even after Muhammad’s time that took Isaiah 42 to be a prophecy of an Arab prophet to come.
Third, these same Jews not only reject the Christian view of Jesus as the Messiah, they also reject Muhammad’s understanding of Jesus’ messiahship, and even reject Muhammad himself as a genuine prophet of God.
Fourth, it is amazing that you seem to know what was in Matthew’s mind why he supposedly “omitted” lines from Isaiah 42:4. How do you know why Matthew did what he did? Did you sit down and have tea with him? Or did Allah convey to you the motives and reasons for why Matthew supposedly omitted lines from Isaiah 42:4? Just to show you how erroneous your psycho-analysis of Matthew is, here is what he says about Christ’s establishing judgment on the earth:
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.” Matthew 16:27
“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Matthew 19:28
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:31-46(1)
Matthew clearly affirms that Christ will establish judgment on the earth, albeit at his return which, ironically, even your own false prophet believed:
Therefore, this in itself suffices to refute your bold assertion that Matthew omitted the last lines of Isaiah 42:4 since he deemed them to be incompatible with what happened to Jesus.
Finally, if you really think you are able to defend your distortion and falsehoods about Isaiah 42 then why not engage me in a discussion over this text?
(1) Astonishingly, Muhammad stole the words of Jesus from Matthew 25:31-46 and put them in the mouth of his deity:
Hadith Qudsi 18:
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah who said that the Messenger of Allah said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection:
O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you not know that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.
It was related by Muslim. (Forty Hadith Qudsi)
In so doing, Muhammad bore tacit witness to the fact that these words could only be spoken by God. And since Jesus spoke these words this means that Jesus was basically making himself out to be God Almighty, mankind’s final and ultimate Judge!
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I forgot to add the hadiths where Muhammad himself confirmed that Jesus would return to establish judgment upon all the earth:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary WILL SOON DESCEND AMONGST YOU AND WILL JUDGE MANKIND JUSTLY (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it.” Abu Huraira added “If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): — ‘And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.” (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657)
(And he shall be a sign for (the coming of) the Hour.) means, sign and “One of the signs of the Hour will be the appearance of `Isa son of Maryam before the Day of Resurrection.” Something similar was also narrated from Abu Hurayrah, Ibn `Abbas, `Abu Al-`Aliyah, Abu Malik, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and others. Many Mutawatir Hadiths report that the Messenger of Allah said that `Isa will descend before the Day of Resurrection as a just ruler and fair judge. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 43:61)
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I need to further clarify. By discussion, I mean a live oral exchange between the two us. We can even do it on Paltalk in my room. Or, if you live in the US, I can arrange for us to meet in a public venue where others can also attend to see how well you do in defending your thesis. You interested?
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Speaking of adding and deleting, let’s see what your Muslim sources did to Isaiah 42:
Ata bin Yasar reported:
I met Abdullah bin `Amr bin al-`Aas and asked him, “Tell me about the description of the Messenger of Allah which is mentioned in the Torah.” He replied, ‘Yes. By Allah, he is mentioned in the Torah with his qualities found in the Qur’an as follows, ‘O Prophet! We have sent you as a witness, and a giver of glad tidings, And a warner, and guardian of the illiterates. You are My slave and My Messenger. I have named you ‘al-Mutawakkil’ (meaning ‘Allah’s dependent’). You are neither discourteous, harsh, nor a noise-maker in the markets; You do not do evil to those Who do evil to you, but you deal With them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him die till he makes upright the crooked people by making them say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, with which will be opened blind eyes, deaf ears and enveloped hearts.” [The Authenticated Collection of al-Bukhari, 3:335]
This is the narration that Muslims appeal to in order to justify their interpretation of Isaiah 42. Therefore, here is my challenge to you:
1. Show us where Isaiah 42 employs the words “O Prophet!”
2. Show us where the text speaks of guarding/protecting illiterates.
3. Show us where the title al-Mutawakkil or its Hebrew cognate appears in Isaiah 42.
4. Show us where the text mentions the Servant exhorting people to recite the first part of the Shahadah.
I eagerly await your response to my questions.
In the meantime, if you want to talk about additions and deletions then you don’t need to look any further than to your own sources which basically butchered the text of Isaiah 42 in order to deceptively and dishonestly make it sound as if it is about Muhammad. People who live in glass houses should never ever cast stones upon others.
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Paul’s Pal
This was my first comment ever on this blog. I am not much aware of brother Williams’ approach and method. I only asked him to share the link to my book on the blog. I can only respond to the questions raised on my comments.
I simply said that appeal to the Jewish interpretions on this topic is not the best approach and the reasons I have given. In fact there have been no less than five different views in regard to the personage here referred to and in the interpretation of the whole prophecy in this chapter. There is not just one view in who the Servant is. So appeal to former interpretation is not the best method in my view. Therefore, let us stick to the text before us.
You’ve cited some references to Jesus (p) establishing judgment on earth from Matthew’s Gospel.
Keeping aside the inherent problems in these reference aside for a moment, they are referring to the last judgment connected to the ressurection i.e. in the hereafter, as the context shows is about the Kingdom of Heaven. Also see the following
Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen! (Matthew 13:40–43)
In such a meaning, the words of Isaiah, “He shall not fail or be discouraged till he has set up judgment on earth” cannot apply to Jesus (p). In the last judgment where God Himself shall judge the works of people. As per Christian belief, since Jesus (p) is part of Divinity, obviously he will judge too. Therefore, the references you cited refer to the heavenly judgment and not the judgment that was to be established on earth where the Servant would struggle and face opposition but still not be discouraged in his task.
In this way, the words of Isaiah 42:4 do not refer to Jesus (p) but to Prophet Muhammad (p).
For now I will ignore the irrelevant remarks on the alleged ‘stealing’.
Regarding the belief of the second coming of Jesus (p) according to the hadith reports.
These reports do not depict the divine judgment set up that is intended by Isaiah 42. They merely point to the just rule of a just king. The sense in establishing judgment of God on earth is different than the usual justice meted out by a just ruler in the daily affairs of humans. The sense in the prophecy of Isaiah 42 is a special divine judgment that will be established, a miniature day of judgment.
What Muslim sources did to Isaiah 42
What you must realize is that the hadith reports are not similar to the style of the Gospels. The Gospel writer is not forwarding oral reports. He is building his views on scriptural passages that are before him. In isolated orla reports there are chances of the narrators rephrasing the actual words as they’ve understood them. We do not claim the hadith reports to be infallible and inspired. Therefore, there is no use bringing this up to defend the Gospel citation of Isaiah 42.
Anyways, the response to the questions you’ve asked is as follows:
//1. Show us where Isaiah 42 employs the words “O Prophet!”//
It is true that these words are not found in Isaiah and they may be the addition of a narrator. Is that the case with Matthew’s writer also? Isn’t that supposed to be inspired?
//2. Show us where the text speaks of guarding/protecting illiterates.//
The text speaks of gentiles and the Servant coming to them but yes again the narrator may have added some words as he understood it.
//3. Show us where the title al-Mutawakkil or its Hebrew cognate appears in Isaiah 42.//
Al-Mutawakkil means one who depends on God. That is a title but can be taken in its normal meaning.
//4. Show us where the text mentions the Servant exhorting people to recite the first part of the Shahadah.//
As I said, the hadith reports are Riwaayaat bil maana (narration in meaning and not word to word). The narrator narrates in his words what he understood. When this narrative says that this Servant will not die until God makes the crooked straight by making them testify the monotheism of God, it is the same as accepting the Shahadah (There is none worthy to be worshiped except God). Anyone who studies Isaiah 42 knows that the Servant will uphold absolute monotheism and negate polytheism and idolatry. That is the essence of Shahadah.
For your information, there are other hadith reports where this prophecy has been cited in a slightly different way but it retains the main essence of the prophecy, yet remaining more faithful to the text.
For example this narrative in Tareekh Dimashq, where Ka’b al-ahbaar cites this prophecy.
أجد في التوراة : عبدي أحمد المختار ، لا فظ ولا غليظ ولا صخاب في الأسواق ، ولا يجزئ بالسيئة السيئة لكن يعفو ويصفح
Ka’ab said,
We find in the TOrah,
“Ahmad, My Servant, whom I have chosen. You are neither discourteous, harsh nor a noise-maker in the markets. And you do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness.”
In this narrative the prophecy is cited in a slightly different way as cited in Bukhari. Here the words are al-Mukhtaar instead of al-Mutawakkil. And Ahmad is supposed to be in the text.
Again I reiterate that these variations are natural in oral reports of a few people and you cannot compare them to the work of one author, who is supposed to be inspired and infallible.
The actual text should be analyzed. I do not have nay problem in a discussion with you on this topic. It is possible that I may be wrong and same possiblity is on your side. I am always open to correction and learning.
Thanks.
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Mushafiq, I just saved your comments here as a word file since (Lord willing) I plan on addressing your assertions thoroughly in the next few days and posting them here.
In the meantime, care to debate me on Isaiah 42? We can do it in my paltalk room, or we can set up a public meeting somewhere in the US if you happen to live in the US. Let me know A.S.A.P. since I can set up a public debate between us on this issue sometime in July in the Michigan area (that is, if the Lord Jesus is willing for it to happen).
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With the name of Allah,
Shame, why is it with live debate? I hope this wont happen. Its going to be an ugly show full of curses. I am certain its only your desperation to find excuse for milking cash cow from uninformed christians. We know your income depends on it.
Why dont you get the book and respond to it here, then br. Mushafiq or anyone else can interact with you in a civilised and orderly fashion.
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Paul’s Pal
I am ok with a discussion on this topic but I am preoccupied with some other things and my job also. So we will have to do this after Ramadan inshaAllah. I do not live in the US. We can only do it on Paltalk. So let us wait until the end of July. My work burden will also lessen by that time.
Regards
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Paulus said:
“I don’t see them as errors. Pretty simple really, wasn’t it. No need to get sidetracked my friend”
LOL!!! Thank you for such a brilliant answer! You might as well admit it, my friend. You are a biased individual who is incapable of having a reasonable discussion.
I showed why quoting Hosea 11 as a prophecy about the Messiah is an error. The best you can do in response is to say that “I don’t see them as errors”.
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“I showed why quoting Hosea 11 as a prophecy about the Messiah is an error. ”
Did you? Here is your argument quoted;
“I also said that the “Jews” of the 1st century clearly misquoted the Tanakh, as in the example of Hosea 11”
Did you see that? See the argument? Nup, me neither. Just an assertion.
And an assertion simply deserves another assertion which is what I gave you.
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I have yet to read Sultan’s reflections on Isaiah 42; something I hope to do soon. However, with that said, I am convinced that Isaiah 63:1-7 is a prophecy concerning the advent of Muhammad.
For support, see the following thread:
http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2010/03/bible-prophecy-is-rise-muhammad-andor.html
Grace and peace,
David
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Thanks for the link David.
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Hi David,
Thanks for the link, just to let you know I am also following your brilliant and informative blog for the past two years or so although I never interact in there due to time. I greatly benefit from your site especially on the Subordinationism and Monarchism issue and the writing of ante nicene fathers.
God Bless and peace,
Eric
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Here is my latest article, which is a supplement to a rebuttal I wrote on Isaiah 42 (the link to which is found in the article itself), showing how the Servant of Isaiah is not Muhammad since Muhammad was a false prophet: http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/05/revisiting-prophecy-of-isaiah-42.html
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There’s no reason to take the writings of an uneducated troll seriously.
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I agree KGETSMACKEDDOWN, which is why you should join me in condemning Muhammad and his Quran, since was the most vile and repulsive uneducated troll the world has known. At least, I don’t go around raping captive women who husbands are still married, nor do I promote a form of prostitution where I treat women as whores and pass it off as temporary marriage. You can thank your illiterate, uneducated profit for all that. 😉
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Sam do you accept the NT teaching:
‘You who are slaves must accept the authority of your masters with all respect. Do what they tell you–not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are cruel.’
1 Peter 2:18
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Well, despite his lack of education Muhammad(saw) ‘produced’ a book which became the standard of the Arabic language. On the other hand, all you are capable of producing is excrement which is why absolutely no one in the academic study of religion takes your writings seriously. So if scholars don’t take you seriously, why should the average person?
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Who cares? King James did the same…
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Paul’s Pal
Apart from Christians who will want to hear your shit without any qualification, do you think any academic or average person will waste his time on you. It is never late, all your colleagues including Dr. Nabeel, David Wood etc. have some academic qualifications. Shabbir Ali has Christian qualifications. I want you to enrol into an Islamic degree and we will take you serious.
If you are not able to do that, you are shit and waste of time with cut and pasting. Christians have realized your cut and pasting and they do not take you serious now a days.
Thanks.
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Intellect, please watch your language 🙂
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Thanks Paul. I appreciate your advice. I am only responding to Paul’s Pal where he said our prophet raped women without any proof except a cut and paste Hadith without any knowledge in the science of Hadith. I will be polite with you advice.
Thanks.
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Sam can be very provocative and offensive I know.
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Paulus,
You seem to be uncomfortable with the fact that Matthew misquoted Hosea 11. I showed the text from Hosea 11, where then”son” is clearly the nation of Israel. The only way for Matthew’s interpretation to be correct is to read the phrase about the son out of context.
Do you have an actual rebuttal or will you keep stalling?
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No, not uncomfortable. Just not particularly interested or bothered by immature polemics.
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201302/201302_026_misquote_OT.cfm
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The writers of the New Testament felt free to misquote and misinterpret the Old Testament and conflate verses
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The same has been said of Muhammad…
But assertions don’t amount for much.
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Matthew 3:3 versus Isaiah 40:3; Matthew 12:17-21 versus Isaiah 42:1-4; Matthew 13:35 versus Psalm 78:1-3; Acts 2:16-21 versus Joel 2:28-32; Acts 7:43 versus Amos 5:25-27; Romans 3:4 versus Psalm 51:4; Romans 9:33 versus Isaiah 28:16 and 8:14; Romans 10:6-8 versus Deuteronomy 30:12-14; Romans 11:9-10 versus Psalm 69:22-23; Romans 11:26-27 versus Isaiah 59:20-21; 1 Corinthians 2:9 versus Isaiah 64:4; 1 Corinthians 3:20 versus Psalm 94:11; 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 versus Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14
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Paulus: Who cares? King James did the same…
The King James bible is not the standard of the English language. The King James bible is the product of a concerted scholarly effort and not the achievement of an illiterate man. The King James bible is not even universally read. I doubt you can find a single person who has the King James bible memorized. The King James bible is not the basis of a civilization. I could go on but the point is clear: the King James bible pales in comparison to the Arabic Quran as far as diversified contributions are concerned.
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Paulus said:
“No, not uncomfortable. Just not particularly interested or bothered by immature polemics.
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201302/201302_026_misquote_OT.cfm”
LOL, oh I see. It’s “immature polemics” to point out obvious evidence of the uninspired nature of the gospels? But the pathetic apologetic responses to these critiques is not “immature”, eh? Just look at the claims of the disingenuous apologist you appealed to. The excuses he makes are laughable. It is just more proof of how brainwashed Christians are. They cannot recognize the truth that it starting right at them. Instead, they will go to great lengths to turn an error in their Bible into something else. It reminds me of something Bart Ehrman mentioned in one of his books. When he was a believer, he wrote an essay on the gospel of Mark, going to great lengths to explain some of the problematic parts of the gospel. When his professor read his essay, he wrote that maybe Mark was just plain wrong! LOL!! How simple! But the Christians will not believe that! They would rather keep living in their fantasy world!
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Matthew 3:3 versus Isaiah 40:3; Matthew 12:17-21 versus Isaiah 42:1-4; Matthew 13:35 versus Psalm 78:1-3; Acts 2:16-21 versus Joel 2:28-32; Acts 7:43 versus Amos 5:25-27; Romans 3:4 versus Psalm 51:4; Romans 9:33 versus Isaiah 28:16 and 8:14; Romans 10:6-8 versus Deuteronomy 30:12-14; Romans 11:9-10 versus Psalm 69:22-23; Romans 11:26-27 versus Isaiah 59:20-21; 1 Corinthians 2:9 versus Isaiah 64:4; 1 Corinthians 3:20 versus Psalm 94:11; 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 versus Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14
Wow, that’s a lot! LOL!
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As Ken would say, OUCH!
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PART 1 OF MY REPLY TO MUSHAFIQ
I am hoping that after I get done refuting Mushafiq’s feeble attempts of defending the indefensible he will send me an email stating that he accepts my challenge to do a live debate with me so as to defend his claims regarding Isaiah 42, since I don’t plan on spending any more time and energy writing out lengthy responses to posts that fail to address the real issues, but attack straw man and toss out red herrings in order divert attention away from the actual arguments. In a live debate Mushafiq won’t be able to get away with such tactics.
You write:
BEGIN
I simply said that appeal to the Jewish interpretions[sic] on this topic is not the best approach and the reasons I have given. In fact there have been no less than five different views in regard to the personage here referred to and in the interpretation of the whole prophecy in this chapter. There is not just one view in who the Servant is. So appeal to former interpretation is not the best method in my view. Therefore, let us stick to the text before us.
END
What makes this rather embarrassing for you is that, even though you claim that there are no less than views regarding the servant’s identity, you still can’t show from ANY Jewish source (not a Muslim source that claims that Jews interpreted in this manner) that one of those views was that the servant would be an Arab.
You then seek to brush aside Matthew’s claim that Jesus shall indeed judge the nations and bring justice to the peoples without realizing how this ends up backfiring against and further proves Muhammad was a false prophet, and therefore cannot be the servant spoke of by Isaiah:
BEGIN
In such a meaning, the words of Isaiah, “He shall not fail or be discouraged till he has set up judgment on earth” cannot apply to Jesus (p). In the last judgment where God Himself shall judge the works of people. As per Christian belief, since Jesus (p) is part of Divinity, obviously he will judge too. Therefore, the references you cited refer to the heavenly judgment and not the judgment that was to be established on earth where the Servant would struggle and face opposition but still not be discouraged in his task.
In this way, the words of Isaiah 42:4 do not refer to Jesus (p) but to Prophet Muhammad (p).
END
The problem with your eisegesis is that neither did your prophet establish justice upon the earth. The fact is that your prophet died a shameful, painful, humiliating death and failed to accomplish the objectives set forth by the prophet Isaiah:
The messenger of God said during the illness from which he died – the mother of Bishr had come in to visit him – “Umm Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar.” (The History of Al-Tabari: The Victory of Islam, translated by Michael Fishbein [State University of New York (SUNY), Albany 1997] Volume VIII, p. 124)
In a footnote the translator of al-Tabari writes that the expression, “it severed his aorta” need not be taken literally since it can be an expression denoting extreme pain. Other sources corroborate that Muhammad ‘s painful death was due to the poison he had ingested years before his demise:
Anas reported that a Jewess came to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) with poisoned mutton and he took of that what had been brought to him (Allah’s Messenger). (When the effect of this poison were felt by him) he called for her and asked her about that, whereupon she said: I had determined to kill you. Thereupon he said: Allah will never give you the power to do it. He (the narrator) said that they (the Companion’s of the Holy Prophet) said: Should we not kill her? Thereupon he said: No. He (Anas) said: I felt (the affects of this poison) on the uvula of Allah’s Messenger. (Sahih Muslim, Book 026, Number 5430)
… The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away. During his illness he used to say, “I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein.” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab Al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Volume II, pp. 251-252)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
‘Umar bin Al-Khattab used to let Ibn Abbas sit beside him, so ‘AbdurRahman bin ‘Auf said to ‘Umar, “We have sons similar to him.” ‘Umar replied, “(I respect him) because of his status that you know.” ‘Umar then asked Ibn ‘Abbas about the meaning of this Holy Verse:– “When comes the help of Allah and the conquest of Mecca…” (110.1)
Ibn ‘Abbas replied, “That indicated the death of Allah’s Apostle which Allah informed him of.” ‘Umar said, “I do not understand of it except what you understand.” Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O ‘Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 713)
Compare the foregoing statements with the following Quranic citation:
We indeed created man; and We know what his soul whispers within him, and We are nearer to him than the jugular vein. When the two angels meet together, sitting one on the right, and one on the left, not a word he utters, but by him is an observer ready. And death’s agony comes in truth; that is what thou wast shunning! S. 50:16-19 Arberry
Allah warns those who disbelieve that he is nearer to them than their jugular vein, an obvious threat that he has the power to kill them, and further threatens that they would experience an agonizing death.
The manner of Muhammad’s death exposes him as an accursed false prophet by the Quran’s own standards:
it is the speech of a noble Messenger. It is not the speech of a poet (little do you believe) nor the speech of a soothsayer (little do you remember). A sending down from the Lord of all Being. Had he invented against Us any sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand, then We would surely have cut his life-vein. S. 69:40-46 Arberry
The fact that Islamic narrations state that Muhammad died a severe death, describing his death in language that is reminiscent of Q. 69:45-46 and 50:16-19, supports the position that he was being punished for some heinous sin. For more on this topic please read the following: http://www.answeringislam.net/authors/shamoun/killed.html
Moreover, you fail to mention that many, if not most of the Arabs who had embraced Islam apostatized shortly after Muhammad’s death, forcing Abu Bakr to declare war upon them until they were forcibly brought back into the fold of Islam. This sure doesn’t sound like the justice envisioned by the prophet Isaiah.
More importantly, I quoted the ahadith to show that even your prophet acknowledged that it is Jesus, not him, who will actually establish justice throughout the entire world. Let me repeat those narrations for you again:
(And he shall be a sign for (the coming of) the Hour.) means, sign and “One of the signs of the Hour will be the appearance of `Isa son of Maryam before the Day of Resurrection.” Something similar was also narrated from Abu Hurayrah, Ibn `Abbas, `Abu Al-`Aliyah, Abu Malik, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and others. Many Mutawatir Hadiths report that the Messenger of Allah said that `Isa will descend before the Day of Resurrection as a just ruler and fair judge. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 43:61)
As a side note, Muhammad ascribes to Jesus two of the names and roles of Allah, namely “just” and “judge,” despite the Quran’s emphatic proclamation that Allah does not have any partner in his judgment or rule:
And say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has not taken a son and Who has not a partner in the kingdom, and Who has not a helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him). S. 17:111 Shakir
Say: Allah knows best how long they remained; to Him are (known) the unseen things of the heavens and the earth; how clear His sight and how clear His hearing! There is none to be a guardian for them besides Him, and He does not make any one His associate in His Judgment. S. 18:26 Shakir
How ironic that your prophet’s own reported words proves that it is Jesus, AND NOT YOUR PROPHET, who perfectly fulfills the words of Isaiah 42. In fact, according to the above narrations Jesus does everything that your prophet was never able to accomplish, since he failed miserably to fulfill what even your own sources claim he was sent to do. For instance, your prophet is reported to have claimed that he was the one who eradicates unbelief:
Narrated Jubair bin Mutim:
I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘I have several names: I am Muhammad and I am Ahmad, and I am Al-Mahi with whom Allah obliterates Kufr (disbelief), and I am Al-Hashir (gatherer) at whose feet (i.e. behind whom) the people will be gathered (on the Day of Resurrection), and I am Al-Aqib (i.e. who succeeds the other prophets in bringing about good).” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 419)
Jubair b. Mut’im reported on the authority of his father that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I am Muhammad and I am Ahmad, and I am al-Mahi (the obliterator) by whom unbelief would be obliterated, and I am Hashir (the gatherer) at whose feet mankind will be gathered, and I am ‘Aqib (the last to come) after whom there will be no Prophet. (Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Number 5810)
The fact is your prophet accomplished no such thing since unbelief, idolatry, immorality etc. continue to permeate the earth, especially among those who profess to be his followers.
And yet the hadiths say that Jesus will actually do what Muhammad was supposed to do, namely abolish unbelief:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425)
The breaking of the cross and the abolishment of the jizya imply that, at Christ’s return, there will no longer be any unbelievers or other religions. After all, jizya is taken from those individuals from the people of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians) who refuse Islam, but when Jesus returns they will all believe or be killed which explains why jizya will no longer be imposed. This is even expressly stated in the following report:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus. He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 37, Number 4310)
This hadith proves that it is not Muhammad who eradicates unbelief, but Jesus Christ when he returns from heaven. Therefore, it is Jesus, not Muhammad, who is Al-Mahi!
The foregoing shows that your own prophet FAILS YOUR VERY OWN CRITERION THAT YOU USE AGAINST MATTHEW!
So much for your desperate attempt of butchering Isaiah 42 for the purpose of making Muhammad fit its description.
Lord willing, the next part of my rebuttal should be appearing sometime this week.
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Salam aleikum, how I can contact brother Mushafiq Sultan ? I’m working extensively on Isaiah 42.
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