35 replies

  1. If this is true, does it not undermine the teachings of organised religion?


    • How so?


    • If God is not constrained by rules, why are there therefore rules in His name? (numerous, contradictory rules, both within specific religions and between different ones)?


    • God would certainly not be constrained by rules however those rules are at the same time ones he gave to humanity so that we might live decent lives but also draw closer to him in relationship through an internal struggle against those desires that contradict said rules.

      In short they are not for him but for us. Drawing close to God is the means by which we become our truest selves as it is our natural disposition. Although expressed and interpreted in a multitude of ways (hence different laws and religions)

      One need not be of a certain faith and outright deny all others as completely false. It might only be the Atheist who would have to say that they are all one big mistake. The religious can take on a more liberal view.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Unfortunately, it is usually the religious (clearly not all, in fact a minority, but the religious all the same) who demonstrate the most intolerance – toward other religions, toward those who do not follow their faith in the exact same way they would, and toward people who want to live free from religious interference.


    • that last paragraph: you have been reading CS Lewis!


    • Indeed its an important point against fundamentalism

      Liked by 1 person

    • What you are talking about is religious fundamentalism which is indeed something that is very much condemned by the majority of whichever faith they exist in. Are there not fundamentalist Atheists and Agnostics who could be accused of the same things especially if we take the last century into account?

      No community is perfect by any standard and we should all work to ensure greater peace between different communities through understanding and dialogue. But ultimately what does such a point have to do with God not being subject to the rule of organised religion? Perhaps the statement is to remind us of what true religion is?


    • I’m not sure how many atheists have been actively involved in global ideological conflicts down the years. Religion has that cornered. Yes though, you are right, there needs to be greater dialogue between communities.

      As per the original post though, if God is not beholden to organised religion, what does this mean for the fundamentalists whose rigid ideas are underpinned by God’s unwavering position that their beliefs are the only right ones?


    • Perhaps you are too young to remember the involvement of the Soviet Union (an atheist regime) in global conflicts.


    • Contrast this with literally centuries of religious-fuelled violence (which is ongoing). What’s worse, under that logic?


    • most of which was between Christians, think of the European wars of religion.


    • Islam is not guilt free here. A number of wars of conquest were fought with Islam used as the motivation or justification for them. The Battle of Karbala was a battle fought between Sunni and Shia Muslims and sectarian violence persists to this day between these two groups (I refer you to the proxy conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia, the Bahraini Uprising, and violence between the two groups that surged during the Iraqi and Syrian conflicts). Islamic State wages campaigns against Shias.

      That misses the point though (and doesn’t even begin to look at the history of violence involving other religions).


    • I think to add what to Paul said about the Soviet union one could also include its predecessor the French revolution in as far as anti-religious persecution. I would recommend reading a recent article on Catholic herald that discusses religious persecution in the union to get a glimpse into what happened. But truth be told such back and forth finger wagging gets us nowhere as i said dialogue and understanding does. That includes recognising the sins of the past and fighting against their cause in the present.

      What does it mean for organised religion? to remind us of its most central claim. If God is God we are not. Religion as Gibran said is everything in life not just a set of beliefs it is both our thoughts and actions.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Fundamentalism in Islam, especially, since they kill or subjugate (Christians and Jews) everyone who disagrees and allow no freedom to think or disagree.


    • What does fundamentalism in Christianity involve?


    • In the USA, a “fundamentalist” today is usually the independent fundamentalist Baptist movement, which is an emphasis on separation from worldliness and society (many do not even vote); and separation from other denominations, and an emphasis on external rules, some legalisms (don’t dance, smoke, or drink alcohol at all, or go to movies at all; must have short hair above the ears for men, etc.); many times a King James Version Only attitude; and looking down on all other Christian denominations, etc.

      Originally, it just meant a commitment to the fundamentals of the faith (The Virgin Birth of Christ, the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, Inspiration of Scripture, the truth of the cross and the resurrection of Christ, the sinfulness of man, justification by faith alone; etc. that hell is real and those that don’t repent and trust Christ will go there, etc.) and the inerrancy of Scripture.

      Like Paul Williams considers all Evangelicals who believe in inerrancy as “fundamentalists” (per James Barr).

      But in the USA, “the Fundamentalists” are usually a smaller group of separatists / legalists/ Baptists.

      But none of them sees the church as having authority to wage war or torture people – all believe in the separation of church and state.

      Self-defense is permitted by the state government; but force or war is not by the church.


    • most historic Christian churches subscribe to the just war theory which is very similar to classical Islamic theories of war.


    • Yes, just war theory (in other words self-defense) done by the state government, not by the church.

      But it is not like Islam, since in Islam, there is complete unity between the government and religion; and Islam initiated centuries of aggressive war-fare against the Byzantines (Levant and N. Africa), Spain, Persia (forced the Iranians to convert to Islam), Constantinople, against the Turks and converted them, and against Hindus and Buddhists farther east. That was not just-war at all.


    • The early Arab conquests of the Levant, North Africa and Spain against the Persians and Byzantines were wars of liberation and justice. Jews and Christians were finally free from persecution to practice their faith.

      Liked by 1 person

    • No they were not; they had no right to do that and they were totally unjust and evil; and Islam does not allow them to practice their faith, since they deny the freedom of evangelism, preaching, and seeking to persuade Muslims to turn away from Islam. Part of the religion of the Christians is evangelism and missions.


    • I was expecting a reply along the lines of Christian fundamentalism involves burning of women accused of sorcery or burning of scientists for postulating models that go against the bible or the european wars of religion or the killing of Joseph Smith, etc. Obviously Ken will disagree with these since he has head buried deep in…nevermind.


    • sounds like Roman Catholicism. I am fully aware of the mistakes and sins of the past. The Salem witch trial in Puritan New England in 1692-1693, was of course, a wrong thing. Joseph Smith was killed by a mob; not church. But Smith was a criminal and agitator first. What a terrible blight on the Mormons (who are polytheists and pagans, and Islam is closer to Christianity than Mormonism is.) to have such a false prophet as their founder. Read “One Nation Under gods” by Richard Abanes – A History of the Mormon Church.


    • Mistakes my ass.

      Liked by 1 person

    • With the name of Allah

      Another oft-repeated nonsense,

      I am a fundamentalist muslim because I adhere and practice to every aspect of Islam teachings and that includes the Qur’anic proclamation that ‘There is no compulsion in religion لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ. I lived in a muslim country almost all my life and I have not seen anything like killing or subjugating (Christians and Jews) everyone who disagrees and allow no freedom to think or disagree.

      Remember genocides only happened in christian land never in muslim land. Half a century ago christians butchered 6 milllions jews in Europe just because they belong to a wrong religion. Also christians did the same to muslims in Bosnia just two decades ago.

      Expert also testify that  Islam early conquest was more of liberation . Dr. Michael Penn who have studied syriacs sources conclude that that early christians encounters with early muslims have more positive christian depiction of Islam than of most western sources. UNDER MUSLIMS RULE, SYRIAC CHURCHES EXPANDED TO FORM THE MOST GEOGRAPHICALLY EXTENSIVE BRANCH OF CHRISTAINITY THE LATE ANCIENT AND EARLY MEDIEVAL WORLD HAD EVER SEEN..

      (Envisioning Islam: Syriac Christians and the Early Muslim World By Michael Philip Pen, Introduction p3)

      So Islam early wars  helped christian of middle east to grow against greek and latin christians.

      Your religion on the other hand has the worst problem of killing or subjugating everyone who disagrees and allow no freedom to think or disagree.

      Liked by 1 person

    • The Syriac (Nestorian) church expanded up into new territory (that Islam had not yet conquered)- along the silk road of Northern Iran into Central Asia – Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan to China – partly because there was no freedom in Syria/Levant area to do missions or outreach. But the Mongols and Turkic tribes (Gengis Khan, Timor) came later (1100s – 1400s) and wiped those churches out. Then Islam conquered the area back again. The Turks became Muslims eventually. All the Syriac – Nestorian churches were destroyed and wiped out.


    • No Penn study shows that Islamic encounter with eastern Syriac christians do reveal a great deal of tolerance. Muslims allow them to worship and flourish. It was the the Roman Empire who had savagely persecuted those population who held the Miaphysites and Nestorians branch of christianity.

      The gradual decline of syriac christians were due to conversion to Islam voluntarily. They eventually saw the truth in the message of Islam.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. Surah 9:28-30
    “fight the people of the book until they submit and pay the Jiziye tax”



    • Professor Joel Hayward, a military man , the man who is a scholar of  the ethics of war has  analyzed the Qur’an , he has came to conclusion (and that of every authoritative Islamic scholar) that the Qur’an is unambiguous:  that these verses are strictly within a code of ethical behavior in the context of self defence in a just war time situation.

      quran war

      Your appeal to islamophobic hate site like answeringmuslims.com tells it all

      Liked by 1 person

    • fight the people of the people who do not believe in Allah nor forbid what Allah forbids (alcohol, pork) – Surah 9:29 – that is not self-defense, but aggressive warfare, only for what they believed and allowed in their religion.

      That article is just quotes from the Qur’an and Hadith.


    • You clearly do not read the article, ripped the contetxt and ignore the scholars. fact of the matter is the Quran teach self defense, unlike your book who teach absurdity like the story of Jesus who smashed baby skulls into the rocks for joy.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Half a century ago christians butchered 6 milllions jews in Europe just because they belong to a wrong religion.
      that is a stupid statement, because the Nazi philosophy was not Christian at all. Hitler, Himmler, Heydrick, Rosenberg, Bormann – they were militantly anti-Christian and admired pagan religions and Hitler admired the military warriors of Islam and the Japanese religion of warfare. See the book on Bonhoeffer by Eric Metaxas, the chapter on Nazi religion is very revealing. Hitler basically said, Why couldn’t we be more brave adn strong and warrior like, like the Muslims and Japanese fighters? – we have the history of a weak and flabby religion of the weak Jesus who did not fight back, etc.

      Also christians did the same to muslims in Bosnia just two decades ago.

      The Serbs as a whole are Eastern Orthodox (a dead religion of rituals and icons – most don’t even read the Bible or know what is in the Bible; some Monks do, but most regular people have left their ancient religion, just like most of Europe is no longer Christian in heart or mind – most Europeans are atheists, agnostics, secular skeptics) , and it is true that they had some really evil leaders. (Melosovich and others) They were wrong and the USA helped Bosnians and Kosovo against the unjust war crimes of the Serbs.


    • Hitler not christian? this is hilarious last time I check Hitler says his fighting spirit was from his faith in his Lord and Saviour and christianity

      “The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement)
was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

      [Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]


      My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a

      [Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922,]


      Hitler was sure he was a christian.

      Liked by 2 people

  4. Actually, in the west today, we are seeing the Leftism of the Democratic party (In USA) as the most intolerant – if allowed to get more power in government, they will eventually come after churches only because we say that homosexuality is wrong and sin; there is no such thing as “same sex marriage”, transgenderism is a mental and emotional problem; abortion is murder; etc.

    Leftism has the most Atheists, skeptics, and militant abortionists, militant environmental wackos; etc.


  5. You go get em Ken! Shows them who’s boss!

    Liked by 1 person

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