Devastating video by Yahya Snow
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Devastating video by Yahya Snow
Categories: Bible, Christianity, God
Blogging Theology 
Reblogged this on Site Title and commented:
If your a Trinitarian of course
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Man I’m glad that as a Unitarian I don’t have any problems with Matt 24:36. 🙂
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I don’t have any problems with it either and I am a trinitarian. 🙂
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Erasmus/Ken
I stand corrected. Maybe there is no problem with Trinitarianism and Matt 24:36. I still think passages like this favor, or at the least,are more helpful to the Unitarian position than the Trinitarian one. That’s all.
And that’s alllll folks….;)
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Not a problem at all. Both Jonathan and James White answered the question.
Jesus is speaking out of His human nature while on earth, during the incarnation.
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Yes and everyone knows that both Jonathan and James are talking out of their rearends. They are interjecting their own a priori views into the text that are not there to begin with. Where did Jesus say he had a human nature and a divine nature? Hmmm….
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It’s right there in Philippians 2:5-8 and John 1:1-5 and 1:14 and John 4 and Hebrews 1:3, 6, 8, 10-13 and many other passages. 1 John 5:20
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it would be helpful if you could actually quote the passages
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yes, but you are too lazy to look them up.
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Separating the natures makes you a heretic. You should know that.
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So Jesus is two persons with two natures, sometimes speaking out of one sometimes speaking out of the other. Weird. And heretical.
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no; Jesus is one person with two natures. And that is the orthodox position agreed to by Protestants, Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches.
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Separating the natures makes you a heretic. And that is the orthodox position.
“Jesus is speaking out of His human nature” is a nono my wannabe missionary friend. Try again.
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The unitarians have to come up with a different concept of omniscience. One that fits the biblical text. Their concept is obviously wrong in the light of scripture. Their concept fits the unitarian deity of their own making which goes against the revelation of scripture.
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Hi guys
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
If this is not God coming in the flesh? If not please explain what the above verses mean.
Is there a Father mentioned in the scriptures? And where is he now?
Is there a Son mentioned in the scriptures? And where is he now?
Is there a Holy Spirit mentioned in the scriptures? And where is he now?
All in heaven
Are they mentioned together at the same time in scripture?
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Are they all in heaven? Yes! Are they in agreement? Yes!
This sounds a lot like 1st John 5:7 we don’t even need the text to prove our point.
Jesus said if you don’t believe who he says he is…you will die in your sin.
No one can explain everything about God but what we can do is speak and explain with the knowledge we do have.
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Hi Paul
Two persons two natures that’s funny what Christian are you referring to that believes that?
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most Christians I know in fact.
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Jesus does not have two persons according to Christian theology but rather has two natures and two wills 🙂
Jesus is considered the second person of the Trinity but is himself one person with two natures (human and divine)
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Good one, Patrice!
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Patrice and Ken Temple
But any 100% Person/person has only 1 human nature and 1 will and any 100% God has only 1 will which is not competing with another Persons/persons.
Trinitarians not all Christians say the Second Person is 100% God and 100% man.
Every 100% man is a being is counted 1 Person/person or being.
It is not possible for 100% human being to have additional 100% God.
Ken Temple will say his God loves him so much and can do anything to love him(Temple). OK. Ken I hear you but why can’t Rastafarian God do any impossible thing like Jesus Christ and come down as a man and love them? or Hindus God becoming 100% man, 100% cow, 100% elephant, 100% monkey etc. to love them?
Thanks.
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Patrice/Ken Temple
You said;
Jesus does not have two persons according to Christian theology but rather has two natures and two wills🙂
I say;
It is not possible because 100% man is counted as 1 Person/being and 100% God is counted as 1 Person/being. So we count 2 persons/beings here.
Nature by itself is not person/being and it is wrong to say the human nature of Jesus Christ is 100% man and his God nature is 100% God.
Nature is not a human being and nature is not God.
Jesus has 2 wills? God will and man will? It cannot be true because why Jesus could not switch to his God will to tell us the day of judgement? or said “I know but will not provide it now” but Jesus said “The son does not know the day of judgement”
Every Person/person is a being and any Person/person whether God or man is counted as 1 being. You cannot have 3 persons and count them as 3 beings.
Ken will say his God can have more than 1 persons as 1 being and if we must accept that, then Hindus God and Mormons God and any multipersonal God like voodoo Gods and Haile Selaissie must be accepted as Gods.
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
How does Jesus know something that only Father knows that the Father will reveal one day?
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correction
You cannot have 3 persons whether God or man or both and count them as 1 being.
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Jesus knows about earthquakes…false prophets…nation against nation…pestilences…tribulation
V30-31 Jesus tells you what he is going to do.
V35 Jesus says his words will never pass away…how is that possibles?
V36 but of that day and hour ( what day and hour?) knoweth no man,no,not the Angels of heaven, but my Father only.
How does Jesus know there is a day and hour that no one knows when the Father is going to make his move?
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Patrice
You ssaid;
Jesus does not have two persons according to Christian theology but rather has two natures and two wills🙂
Jesus is considered the second person of the Trinity but is himself one person with two natures (human and divine)
And Mr. Temple is happy.
I say;
All the above is wrong. If something is wrong, it is wrong and it does not matter God said so or human said so.
1+1+1+1=4 is correct and true
1+1+1+1=5 is wrong and untrue and something wrong and untrue is what it is no matter who said so whether God or man and must be treated as such.
We know it is wrong by counting and we know how to count just like the statements above are impossibility and untrue and it does not matter which theology it belongs or came from. If it is from Christians theology does that mean we must accept it as true? No.
If someone God can become man and love him somebody’s God can also become man, cow, elephant etc. to love him.
My God of Abraham said clearly He is one, only and alone and there is nothing who is God except Him alone.
We have not seen heaven and angel and so cannot make decision on it. It can be accepted or rejected. I accept heaven and angels.
Thanks,
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Intellect whether you agree with the Christian belief in Jesus as God or not is irrelevant to actually defining their position correctly. I imagine you wouldn’t be happy if Ken or others did the same with Unitarianism.
What use is their in having an argument based on a false premise?
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Patrice
I am not defining Christianity and I did not define Christianity and I cannot define Christianity. I am defining Person, man, 1, only, alone, God, 1+1=2 not 3, nature, etc. as is understood and accepted by anyone in everyday language, logic and rationality.
If Islam says 8 Persons/persons is 1 being, I will be the first to leave Islam. Fortunately we do not have this illogicality in Islam. Sam Shamoun, David Wood, Nabeel, madmanna, Ken have tried hard to see their illogicalities in Islam but they could not.
Patrice, if some one says 5+5=11 shall we keep quite and say “or well let us let them define their religion”? You forgot Christians are defining other religions wrongly everyday? and portray their illogicality as truth?
I think we must not say “oh let Christians define their religion” even though a Person is a being and 3 persons are 3 beings and it is polytheism.
The Christians keep defining other religions everyday and they said Jews who do not believe in Jesus Christ as God and anyone who does that is perished. Don’t you think we have to point our to them they are wrong in the words the keep changing?
They have changed so many words to their whims and caprice.
God does not die, the say God died
God is not a man, they say God is a man
God is to majestic to enter into a woman’s womb, they say God entered into a woman’s womb and became man i.e. creature but will judge or define Rastafarians and Hindus who have their Gods entering into human world as man, cow, rats, snakes, elephants, monkeys etc.
Ken Temple has defined all these as idol woship forgetting he is part of them in that they all have their God becoming a creature to love them.
Thanks.
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Yes you are defining a significant article of the Christian faith which just so happens to be about the nature of Christ and getting it wrong as Christians do not believe that the three persons of the Trinity make up three gods but that “The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Not that there are three distinct beings like the old paintings present.
I find it rather puzzling when you say that Christians shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to define their religion because it is ‘polytheism’ and that people in the past did terrible things in the name of it! I guess by that standard Muslims should not be allowed to define their religion either for those same reasons.
This is not my attempt at disproving what you believe but just trying to encourage intellectual honesty in these dialogues, without which as i said before would render any point you make, mute.
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Patrice
You said;
Yes you are defining a significant article of the Christian faith which just so happens to be about the nature of Christ and getting it wrong as Christians do not believe that the three persons of the Trinity make up three gods but that “The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Not that there are three distinct beings like the old paintings present.
I say;
I did not define what you said like
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that the three persons of the Trinity make up three gods but that “The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Not that there are three distinct beings like the old paintings present.
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Where did I defined the above?
I can only count 3 Gods because the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God. I did not define Trinity by counting 3 Gods in their definition.
It is like idol worshipers insisting they worship only one God but they call other Gods they worship as the lesser Gods or intermediary Gods and they worship all of them.
If I see it as idol worship and polytheism does that mean I define their religion? No.
100% cow and 100% man is an impossibility and 100% God, 100 man is an impossibility. By identifying the impossibility does that mean I define Christianity? No.
The Trinitarians will not accept Rastafarians who believed in Trinity with Haile Selassie. Doe that mean Trinitarians are defining Rastafarianism. No they are not but they just see it as wrong like I see all of them wrong.
Identifying incorrectness in something is not defining that thing. It is a mistake to accept it because someone has defined it. 1+1+1+1=5 which is wrong so we must accept it because someone defined it or someone said so? No.
Trinitarians definition of Trinity does not mean it is right because Trinitarians defined it. I will not argue that because Muslims defined Islam, so Islam is right. That is not the way things must go. Any one can scrutinize Islam and challenge it and the Quran encourages that.
I count 3 Gods in the definition of Trinity does not mean I defined it and it is not wise to say because the Trinitarians defined their Trinity so Trinity is right and I should count the 3 Gods as one like them. If I follow you and the Trinitarians we will all perish from lies and wrong.
Thanks.
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Patrice
You said;
“The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Not that there are three distinct beings like the old paintings present
I say;
I have seen error here and I am not defining anything.
If they are not 3 distinct being, why are they different and called the Son, the Father and HS? Why not God the Father and that is it?
And the Father is not the Son. The Father is not the Son but they are not distinct? I am not my Father but we are not distinct? That is not true.
Trinitarians can change words, phrase, sentence, logic, anything and try to force people to accept and if you do not accept they call you names like heretic, antichrist, satan, defining Trinity, Unitarian etc.
I will define person, one, Son, Father etc. because I know what those words means and the Trinitarian definitions has some flaws in it.
They can substitute the persons to board of directors and it means the same level of the hierarchy and I cannot challenge that one. If it remains persons, Father, Son etc. which has subordinates and superiors in the hierarchy more people will realize the error not me alone.
Thanks.
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We made a video concerning this passage. IT uses an augustinian interpretation
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that was very good Deo Volente NL. I had never heard that before,so it is very useful and interesting and make me want to study that issue deeper.
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For references see our articel on the matter : http://deovolentenl.nl/1998-2/
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Why is it necessary to obsess over the Trinity and Christianity if you are assured of your faith as a Muslim?
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darthtimon
Because the Trinity is wrong in that God is not a man, creature, multiperson, God-Man, 3 Persons/persons 1 God, Jesus Christ, monkey, cow, elephant etc.
Thanks.
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Does what someone else believes about it impact your security in your own faith enough to require you to poke holes in it?
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darthtimon
No, my dear darthtimon. If we see something wrong, we must alert people so that it will be corrected. I am not after Christianity because my friends, family members, co workers, business partners etc. are Christians.
I am only alerting people that God said in the Bible clearly that He does not die, He is not a man(creature), He is only one and He is alone. He never said He is 3 persons in 1, He never said He is God Man, Jesus never said He has 2 natures, God never said He generated His son from eternity etc. and many more Trinitarian believes.
1person and the second person and the third person are 3 persons and any person is a being, so 3 persons are 3 beings and it will be polytheism to worship that God.
No person is a person if he is not a being. Ken said God can have more than 1 persons and still retains His one being. I do not know where He got this from. But in that case we have so many Gods who have one being as well. Mormons have more than one person being, Rastafarians, Hindus etc.
Thanks.
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The thing is, if we are to accept that God is omnipotent and omnipresent, who is to say that God could not experience death via existing in multiple forms across all of space and time? The suggestion that he couldn’t do this is to place a limit on his power, is it not?
But that’s besides the point. Why not practice ‘live and let live’?
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Self defense. The Christian missionary targets me for being human in general and especially being Muslim.
Just ask your average manic street preacher at the next corner.
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And I’m sure there are Christians who would argue the opposite. It’s a ceaseless spiral based on degenerating someone else’s faith to elevate theirs.
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Frankly I don’t care what “Christians would argue”. My personal experience is the Christian missionaries even target Muslim children. I don’t want that. I want them to stop.
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I don’t blame you for that. Do you think criticising Christian beliefs will achieve this?
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Insha Allah. Why not. Why give up reasoning? That’s what you do. No?
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How so exactly?
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darthtimon
“The thing is, if we are to accept that God is omnipotent and omnipresent, who is to say that God could not experience death via existing in multiple forms across all of space and time? The suggestion that he couldn’t do this is to place a limit on his power, is it not?”
OUCH!
that is the question that muslims can’t answer – in order to make their case they have to limit and demean the power and capabilities of deity.
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Trey
“…who is to say that God could not experience death via existing in multiple forms across all of space and time?”
Thank you for affirming hinduism. Multiple OUCH!
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Burhanuddin
Don’t pretend that you understand hinduism. I doubt that you even understood darthimon’s point.
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Trey
Burhanuddin1. Good one there for reminding Trey of his multiple form. How cant the Trinity God become cow, monkey, elephant, snake etc.? Do not blame Hindus for worshiping cow. Their cow God is the existence of God in multiple forms as Trinitarians will agree God power allows Him to exist in multiple form. Cow God.
Thanks.
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Intellect
You’re not making sense. What is your point?
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Trey
You will say I am not making sense because you believed Jews do not make sense by worshiping their one God and not Trinitarian God Jesus Christ.
I responded to the conversation going on through this
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Trey
August 30, 2016 • 12:32 pm
darthtimon
“The thing is, if we are to accept that God is omnipotent and omnipresent, who is to say that God could not experience death via existing in multiple forms across all of space and time? The suggestion that he couldn’t do this is to place a limit on his power, is it not?”
OUCH!
that is the question that muslims can’t answer – in order to make their case they have to limit and demean the power and capabilities of deity.
/////////////////////////
You believed God exists in multiple forms. I am saying Hindu has God in man form, cow form, monkey form etc. so based on your believe all these Hindu Gods are Gods. I believed your thinking and believe is idolatry and polytheism punishable by hell fire if you do not repent.
The Bible said no creature, image or nothing must be worshiped except only one true God of Abraham who is alone.
What God said prevents Him from having multiple form but you believed like Hindus God is powerful to become anything i.e. man, cow, monkey, snake etc. and come down to love you just like Hindu cow God coming down to love them. After all you all believed God can become cow, man, snake etc.
Thanks.
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Intellect
That is one of the most irrational and illogical thought processes I have ever encountered. I don’t believe in the Hindu religion, so no I don’t believe in their gods. What does this have to do with christianity?
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Trey
You believed God exists in multiple form and the Hindus also believe God exists in multiple form i.e. cow or God Cow or God Man(Sai Baba), monkey God etc.
You Trey believed like Hindus in that God is powerful and He can do whatever He wants and is omnipresent in multiple form.
I am not saying you are Hindu or believed in their Gods but you share the same idea of multiple form God and omnipresent God who can come a multiple form to love you.
Thanks.
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Ken said:
“It’s right there in Philippians 2:5-8 and John 1:1-5 and 1:14 and John 4 and Hebrews 1:3, 6, 8, 10-13 and many other passages. 1 John 5:20”
LOL, Ken! It seems you can’t read. I asked where does Jesus say that he has 2 natures? You quoted Paul’s epistles and some portions of the Gospel of John and an epistle, but no where in these texts does Jesus actually say that he has 2 natures! So am I to understand that you cannot answer my question? Did Jesus ever say he had 2 natures?
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Hi Faiz
This may explain the two natures issue for you.
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And you need to figure out what Jesus means
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Jesus speaks through His apostles.
John 17:8
All the NT is the word of Jesus.
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Defendchrist asked:
“How does Jesus know something that only Father knows that the Father will reveal one day?”
Um, because if Jesus is supposed to be “God”, then he should know everything that the “Father” knows as well. Otherwise, he is not equal to the “Father” and thus cannot be “God”. And yet, one of the teachings of the trinity is that the “Father” and the “son” are “co-equal”. That’s another contradiction in Christian theology.
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darthtimon
You said;
August 30, 2016 • 8:38 am
The thing is, if we are to accept that God is omnipotent and omnipresent, who is to say that God could not experience death via existing in multiple forms across all of space and time? The suggestion that he couldn’t do this is to place a limit on his power, is it not?
But that’s besides the point. Why not practice ‘live and let live’?
I say;
The Bible clearly said God is immortal-He does not die. Whether omnipotent, omnipresent etc. the Bible clearly said God does not die. I do not know why you are trying to inject some words to achieve your desire. This not attacking Christianity or Christians but telling the truth.
God does not die period, full stop, dot, ellipse(.)
How can God experience death if He does not die? It is impossible. The Bible neve said God will die. It clearly said God doesn’t die.
Live and lets live. Yes, we are living and let others live except extremist on both sides like isis, Donald Trump and his supporters, hard core Zionists, book haram, etc. that are causing problem. Other than that we are ok as there are Christians in my family and we are living happily and I will defend them and my Christian friends from any bad person.
This discussing and brainstorming is just learning and identifying the truth. The Quran encourages anyone to scrutinize it and bring any inconsistencies he can find. Sam Shamoun and others before them are doing that and their evidence does not sound convincing like my evidence above.
Thanks.
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If God is all-powerful, what is to stop him experiencing death through some metaphysical means beyond our understanding? If God is omnipotent, this means he has the power to do literally anything.
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so can God create a married bachelor? Or a square circle?
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Do you believe God is omnipotent?
But that’s all besides the point, as I have repeatedly mentioned already. Why the obsession with a different faith? If some Christians believe in the Trinity, does this affect you?
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Lol. Or make Islam true?
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darthtimon
You said;
darthtimon
August 30, 2016 • 1:48 pm
If God is all-powerful, what is to stop him experiencing death through some metaphysical means beyond our understanding? If God is omnipotent, this means he has the power to do literally anything
I say;
If God has the power to do anything then he can become a Hindu God which are monkey, cow, elephant, ants, man(Sai Baba), etc. and voodoo God is snake and Rastafarian God is Emperor Haile Selaissie.etc.
That is the metaphysical means beyond our understanding. So you are just like Hindus who have God Man, God cow because God power can do anything.
I believe there are certain thing God cannot do i.e. God cannot become man, monkey etc. i.e. creature.
because God said so and He said God is not a man.
You cannot blame Hindus for their God cow, God monkey etc. because you believed God power can do literally anything. I blame you and the Hindus because the Bible said worshiping a creature is idol worship and is punishable in hell fire.
Thank you
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Paul Williams
“so can God create a married bachelor? Or a square circle?”
False equivocation. If you are truly a theist of any kind, and you believe in life after death, then life and death cannot possibly be dichotomous logical opposites.
One principle of abrahamic faith is that death is merely an avenue to more life. Unless you somehow do not believe in life after death – which would be weird – you cannot logically believe that life and death are logical opposites. It just doesn’t makes sense unless you no faith.
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Trey
life means not dead. Dead means no life and so they are opposite despite believing resurrection to another life.
Life is indeed the opposite of death.
If you visit mortuary or grave yard do you see life in the bodies of dead people? No, so they do not have life which is the opposite of death.
God is the only Power that can resurrect the dead and bring him back to life. The Bible said God can destroy both the body and the soul if He wants to.
Life and death are not the same because one believe in resurrection after death. After all there is resurrection between death and life.
Nothing can continue to live i.e. life except God. Who do not die according to the Bible.
Thanks.
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Hi
This is for Faiz
You asked about Jesus and his two natures here is the scripture and his own words you didn’t answer me.
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
He is on the earth and in heaven at the same time.
These are the words of Christ.
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Intellect
Life does not mean “not dead” at all. What kind of muslim are you that you don’t believe in life after death? If you have been a good muslim and god decides to show mercy on you, then you live forever right, in some kind of heavenly place?
You are very confused about your religion.
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Trey
I will die and lose my life before God resurrects me and InshaAllah put me in Jannatul Firdaus(Paradise). Every human being including Jesus will die and be resurrected. When one dies he lose his life until resurrected.
So death is the opposite of life. If one dies until resurrected by God he has no life. So God cannot die. It is blaspheme and needs repentance.
Thanks.
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Why is mat 24:36 a problem for christians?
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Patrice:
“Intellect whether you agree with the Christian belief in Jesus as God or not is irrelevant to actually defining their position correctly. I imagine you wouldn’t be happy if Ken or others did the same with Unitarianism.
**What use is their in having an argument based on a false premise?”
**Irony just died.
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On the issue of Matthew 24:36 – this is very good:
“The Bible uses the words ‘know’ in a number of different ways. Sometimes it is used to mean ‘proclaim’, ‘reveal’, or ‘make known’.”
As in 1 Corinthians 2:2
“For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.”
Paul did not mean he didn’t know anything else; rather he decided to mainly “make known”, preach, reveal, proclaim the message of the cross as the main issue.
from the article by Deo Volente NL
See the quotes from Augustine; excellent.
http://deovolentenl.nl/1998-2/
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Not convincing
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John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.” John 3:27
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Yawn
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To answer some of the points that have come my way:
Given the powers granted to God by various religious texts (especially if we don’t restrict ourselves to the Bible and Quran), who is to say a divine being that sits far beyond our understanding couldn’t manifest themselves in various ways and forms, simultaneously?
If God is the Creator, then he also created Christianity and Islam, as well as Hinduism, Taoism, the various Native American faiths, and indeed, everything. He transcends the squabbling between faiths and most likely would look down with disdain at those who mock or criticise other faiths.
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A divine being that “sits far beyond our understanding” that manifests itself in a form does not “sit far beyond our understanding” any more.
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Except how can we define any being that can experience death yet live? Or a being that can transcend all of space and time?
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The monotheistic scriptures agree that God does not die. Trinitarian Christianity is the odd one out.
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They also agree God is all-powerful yes? Or do they place conditions upon this? Is God not in fact all powerful?
The main point though, comes back to the live and let live issue. This site devotes a significant percentage of posts to attacking the Trinity. What is the endgame here?
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From God being all powerful, it hardly follows that that entails he can do that which is logically impossible. It really isn’t that hard to understand.
It’s not about putting limitations on God; how absurd! It’s coming to the understanding that yes, the Lord is almighty, and Omnipotent but that doesn’t mean he can do that which entails a contradiction;for the simple fact that contradictions are by definition things (?) that don’t exist. A married bachelor would be a perfect example.
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Except if God exists in the omnipotent, omnipresent form we are told of (look up both words if you need to clarify their meaning), what would stop him from existing in multiple forms simultaneously, so he could experience death through another form whilst continuing to exist elsewhere?
A more pertinent question is: who cares if this is what some Christians believe? And why is it that people (on both sides of this, I hasten to add) feel the only way to have more faith in their religion is to trample on someone else’s?
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darthtimon You have been answered.
“And why is it that people (on both sides of this, I hasten to add) feel the only way to have more faith in their religion is to trample on someone else’s?”
Answer: They do not feel that way necessarily. False presumption.
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If God cannot contradict something does then that not mean that the thing he is subject to is by extension superior to him? Therefore making it God?
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There is nothing logically impossible about it – it is a question of whether god has the capability to control his power, and enter into creation as human. Humans can control their own power so how can you claim that god cannot?
None of you guys have been able to answer that question. You have no grounds to assert that a multi-dimensional being cannot exist in several places and in several forms at the same time.
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Trey
A necessarily uncreated entity cannot be created by definition.
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Burhanuddin1
“A necessarily uncreated entity cannot be created by definition.”
that doesn’t even address my question at all. I don’t think you comprehend christian belie as much as you claim to – jesus is uncreated, which as you would agree, makes him divine. You still haven’t answered the question of why is it impossible for a multi-dimensional being to exist in multiple forms, withholding his full power in some forms and simultaneously maintaining his full power in others.
The only argument that people have given is that because humans can’t comprehend it, then it can’t be possible. That demeans god, and makes him a mere creation of the human mind.
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Trey is your God necessarily uncreated?
If yes, all your fancy “clever” philosophical speculation is a waste of time.
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Burhanuddin1
“Trey is your God necessarily uncreated?
If yes, all your fancy “clever” philosophical speculation is a waste of time.”
Hold on, you are the guys who are trying to disprove the divinity of christ with philosophical speculation.
Now that it has been pointed out to you by both a christian and an atheist that your philosophical presumptions are logically vacuous and are mere arguments from special pleading, you reject that line of argumentation.
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“Hold on, you are the guys who are trying to disprove the divinity of christ with philosophical speculation.”
Lol. That’s a good one. My God is absolutely uncreated. Your God is a philosophical speculation.
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“Lol. That’s a good one. My God is absolutely uncreated. Your God is a philosophical speculation.”
I see you have run out of philosophical speculations and have resorted to childish “my god is better than yours” tactics. LMAO
I’ll take that as an admission that you can think of no logical reasons to disprove the incarnation.
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Just gave you one. Unbelievable.
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This is getting ridiculous. Muslims nor Unitarian Christians don’t reject the Trinity doctrine for pure philosophical reasons lol. Don’t get us wrong, we definitely, from our respective Theological views find major philosophical objections! But we start where all revelatory Religions start (at least the Abrhamic ones) and that’s with the scriptures! I personally don’t find the doctrine of the Trinity to be a clear teaching (or teaching for that matter) of scripture!
Let’s get this clear from the jump! It’s the scriptures that provide the springboard and delineates the discussions we have about God. Muslim/Chrisian and Jew.
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Burhanuddin
“Just gave you one. Unbelievable.”
I think not. You asserted that the christian god is a phşlosophical speculation – that’s not even pretending to be a logical argument.
biblicalmonotheist
“This is getting ridiculous. Muslims nor Unitarian Christians don’t reject the Trinity doctrine for pure philosophical reasons”
Right, but many of the arguments made against the trinity on this thread have been philosophical and based on arguments from logical consistency. Now that none of you have been able to make a sound logical argument against the idea that god can exist in several forms at the same time, you want to change the subject.
That’s fine, I’m just pointing out that there are no logical obstacles to trinitarianism.
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* I should have said ” contradictions are things, events ect. that by definition can not exist, e.g. a married bachelor”
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Ken said:
“Jesus speaks through His apostles.
John 17:8
All the NT is the word of Jesus.”
LOL!!! How covenient! So Jesus never actually said that he had two natures, but instead waited to say it “through his apostles”. That was quite brilliant of him!
So, am I to understand that Jesus never actually said “I have two natures”?
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Defendchrist said:
“This is for Faiz
You asked about Jesus and his two natures here is the scripture and his own words you didn’t answer me.
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
He is on the earth and in heaven at the same time.
These are the words of Christ.”
Yeah, except that Jesus clearly did not seem to know about Elijah, who DID ascend up to heaven:
“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind” (2 Kings 2:11).
See, this is the problem with the Bible. It contradicts itself. You can’t quote a verse without opening up a whole new can of worms.
Furthermore, nothing in John 3:13 suggests that Jesus has 2 natures. You are simply reading your own preconceived ideas into it. All it says is that the son of man (not the son of God) came down from heaven. That could just mean that Jesus is sent from heaven.
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Hi Faiz
Now I know you don’t read the bible properly!
Where and when did Elijah come to earth and preach about heaven? There is no contradiction you guys spend your time looking for issues until you don’t even know what you are saying yourself.
Jesus is the only one who has the authority to speak on earth about the heavenly because that he is where he came from.
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
You can chop and slice verse 13 how you want but don’t accuse me of producing contradictions.
I think you asked Ken to show you where Jesus says he has two natures, well this verse to a great place to start…talking to Nicodemus yet is n heaven.
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Hi Faiz
Furthermore how could Jesus being sent from heaven mean he is not from heaven?
Now you are blatantly trying make things up that are not in the text.
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Hey Faiz
Are you going to refute me on John 3:13? You made an accusation and a claim.
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Lol, hold your horses dc. I do have a life outside of blogging. I will respond to your posts when I have time. Patience, young padawan, patience!
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Heh heh I gathered that.
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Defendchrist,
I pointed out that your appeal to John 3:13 backfires because Jesus apparently did not realize that Elijah also ascended to heaven. The verse claims that no one ascends to heaven unless he also descended from it:
“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”
The meaning is pretty clear.
Now, as your claim that it refers to Jesus’ 2 natures, you are simply committing a non sequitur. You see, you assume 2 natures from the start, and then conclude that since Jesus says he came from heaven, then he must have 2 natures. But that’s not the case. Jesus never said “I have 2 natures”. Why couldn’t he just clearly say it?
Also, Jesus only said that he came from heaven. That is not the same as saying he has 2 natures. Here is a good article by a Unitarian that explains the proper context:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/john-3-13
He quotes James 1:17, which states:
“Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.”
So, you have no reason to assume that Jesus saying he “came from heaven” means he descended from it as a divine being and assumed human form. That is just a trinitarian assumption.
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Hi Faiz
Let me walk you through because you like all the other Muslims I have spoken spend so much time trying to find contradictions yet miss truth.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Is the Word God in this text?
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Right is this saying the Word is made flesh? Means a man.
This verse relates to…
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Lots of the translation say “he” was manifested in the flesh, but how else would a man come into the world…what the great mystery.
The great mystery is God being manifested in the flesh.
Did Jesus come into existence at the virgin birth? If yes then how could he say the following…
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So Jesus was on the earth in human form…yet said he was in heaven.
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
I suppose these scriptures are just “trinitarian assumptions”
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Hi Faiz
You said…
pointed out that your appeal to John 3:13 backfires because Jesus apparently did not realize that Elijah also ascended to heaven. The verse claims that no one ascends to heaven unless he also descended from it:
“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”
That’s not what the bible says.
Where did Elijah come down and teach about heaven you haven’t answered that question.
We can mention Enoch went to heaven in Genesis.
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defendchrist
All prophets including Elijah came down to teach about heaven because they are from one God and the same God. Don’t you agree to that?
Adam and Eve came straight from heaven but Jesus came from someone’s womb.
Thanks.
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Trey
You said;
Now that none of you have been able to make a sound logical argument against the idea that god can exist in several forms at the same time, you want to change the subject.
That’s fine, I’m just pointing out that there are no logical obstacles to trinitarianism
I say;
How can one individual be thousand individuals at the same time?
God said clearly He is 1 and Jesus said his God is 1.
How can that 1 God exists in different forms at the same time? Impossible.
The different forms means each form is God and many forms are many Gods and God said in the Bible nothing must be worshiped except the only one true God of Abraham, Jesus, Moses…………………..
It is the Bible and God Himself which said it is impossible for God to exist in different form at the same time. It is like married bachelor that is impossible.
Trey, do you have any objection? I will love to hear from you or you better convert from Trinitarianism- it is man made.
Thanks.
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“God said clearly He is 1”
Tell me more about that.
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Trey
You said;
Trey
September 1, 2016 • 12:04 pm
“God said clearly He is 1”
Tell me more about that.
I say;
What do you want me to tell you more? Don’t you understand 1? 1 is not 2,3,4,5………. and you do not understand this?
Any person is a being i.e. Human being, divine being, angelic being, satanic being etc.
1 Person is 1 being and 2 persons are 2 beings and 3 persons are 3 beings and 4 persons are 4 being etc.
Anyone who says 3 persons are 1 being is telling lies. It does not matter what scripture says so whether Quran, Bible, Hindus scripture vadas etc.
Similarly 1+1+1+1=4 correct and true.
If someone whether God or scripture, NT, Quran, council of Nicea, Trent, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Trinitarians, Unitarians, Jehovah witness etc. says
1+1+1+1=5 wrong, incorrect, lie and must be noted that it is not true.
3 persons are 3 beings just like 4 persons are 4 beings and Mormons or Hindus or Idol worshipers multipersons or multi Gods are multi beings and against the Bible which says
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
Give me one verse from the Bible that says god is in so many FORMS in different places?
1 form =1 God and 2 forms= 2 Gods etc. like in idol worship that has so many forms like monkeys, cows, elephants etc. as God.
Trey, I have more and more clear statements from the Bible that says God is 1. If God is in different places in different forms at a time He cannot be 1 but many like human beings who are in different forms in different places.
God omnipotence means He know everything everyone because He is all knowing. God cannot be in the belly of Satan.
Satan exist and God says we should not go near satan. Why will God warn us against satan if He God is everywhere? Everywhere means in the belly of Satan or in Satan. God is not in my shit. May God forbid. Astaghfirullah.
God is not in the belly of voodoo God snake. God knowledge is everywhere but certainly God is not physically present anywhere.
Thanks.
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Defendchrist said:
“Hi Faiz
Let me walk you through because you like all the other Muslims I have spoken spend so much time trying to find contradictions yet miss truth.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Is the Word God in this text?
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Right is this saying the Word is made flesh? Means a man.
This verse relates to…
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Lots of the translation say “he” was manifested in the flesh, but how else would a man come into the world…what the great mystery.
The great mystery is God being manifested in the flesh.
Did Jesus come into existence at the virgin birth? If yes then how could he say the following…
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So Jesus was on the earth in human form…yet said he was in heaven.
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
I suppose these scriptures are just “trinitarian assumptions””
Um yes, they are. Even the gospel of John does not specifically mention the trinitarian doctrine. Christians developed the doctrine over several centuries.
But this is not the issue under discussion anyway. We were talking about whether Jesus himself ever said that he had 2 natures. Thus far, you have failed to prove that he did. John 3:13 does not prove that he had 2 natures, and in fact, creates a contradiction since both Elijah and Enoch ascended to heaven. John 3:13 claimed that no one ascended to heaven except one who comes from heaven.
Elijah claimed to be a “man of God” and that he served Him:
“Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word”” (1 Kings 17:1).
“At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command” (1 Kings 18:36).
“Elijah answered the captain, “If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!” Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men” (2 Kings 1:10).
It seems pretty clear to me that he preached about heaven.
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