18 replies

  1. What part of not believing in a deity suggests to you that atheists would believe no lives matter?

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    • It probably stems from the notion in the Abrahamic tradition that the thing that separates humans from the animals is that humans have a soul. Atheists think humans do not have souls and are not separate from animals. The lives of animals don’t really matter much.


    • The funny thing about atheism is it is really hard to generalize, just like it is really hard to talk about theists in one breath, since theism includes not only Muslims on Christians but pagans and Hindus and Satanists and Wiccans too. So i’m not really sure you can just throw out a blanket statement like “atheists don’t believe in souls.” I personally don’t believe in souls, but i’m not sold that a belief in a deity is required to believe in the immaterial essence of an individual. I am also not sold that if such a thing as a soul existed that animals couldn’t have souls.

      But even if we take that at face value, do you really think atheists believe that a soul is the only thing that separates humans from other animals?

      Also there are a lot of people out there who believe that animal’s lives matter very much, have you ever heard of PETA?

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    • The disbelievers are basically one nation. Especially today there is no big difference between atheists and Christians. Politically they follow the same ideologies.
      Atheism does lead to the conclusion that nothing matters. However nearly no atheist believes in this. This is because the disbelievers never have consequent beliefs. Their beliefs are always inconsistent and at the end they base on emotions and dogmas.


    • Rider, have you been following the US election season at all? Yeah politically atheists and Christians follow the same ideologies, guess what, Muslims do to, and we can say that because everybody is all over the map, there are conservative atheists and liberal Christians. There are group of Muslims for Donald Trump, and there are groups of Muslims for Hilary Clinton. As with most things there are always more variations within the group then there is between groups.

      “Atheism does lead to the conclusion that nothing matters.” You know what? The day I rejected Christianity and embraced atheism there was a mandatory Beginner Atheist Nihilism 101 meeting at the local community college and I just couldn’t muster up the energy to go (probably because life is meaningless) do you think they are going to take away my atheist card?.

      Come on Rider, that’s like me saying that Islam leads to the conclusion to be a good Muslim you have to engage in violent holy war against disbelievers. I would be making that assessment based on a small subset of Muslims and primarily on the authority of what non-Muslims me to believe about what Muslims believed.

      May I suggest in the future you actually engage with atheist and take their word for it on what they believe and avoid telling atheists what they have to believe

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    • Rider

      “The disbelievers are basically one nation. Especially today there is no big difference between atheists and Christians.”


      Except that christians believe in god and atheists don’t. Pretty big difference.

      Also, you are a bigot.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Frank, I don’t really think name calling is going to help sway Rider to a more reasonable position. But yeah, that is a pretty big difference.


    • There might be a difference between a real atheist and a Christian. But there are no real atheists. Most atheists believe in ideologies which are a equivalent to religions. Modern Christians basically also believe in the same ideologies.
      There is a difference between a real Christian and a real atheist but not between a modern Christian and an usual atheist. That these kind of people are existing and not the real ones is a grace for Muslims theologically. But it makes practical life more difficult since they are united against the Tawhid.


    • Rider, Atheism isn’t defined by its lack of belief in ideologies, it is defined by its lack of belief in any deities, that is all that is required to be a “true atheist.” There was no mandatory nihilism sign-up sheet at the atheist registration table.

      I would also recommend that until you get all Muslims to agree on a single interpretation of Islam you might want to avoid presiding over who is or is not a “True Christian”

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    • It is true that all kinds of people subscribe to different political ideologies. So people who have something to do with Islam also have political ideologies. But this makes them one of those others (disbelievers). These people are not aware Muslims but very ignorant.Their allegiance to a political ideology makes them part of the non-Muslim system.
      Muslims may support candidates that will be more friendly to them but without allegiance.

      When I say “real atheism” I do actually mean nihilism, yes. This is because nihilism is the logical consequence of atheism. But I am not saying that atheists are somehow immoral. I know that most atheists have morality and act upon it like religious people act upon their morality. The point is that without an afterlife or consequences that come from a deity nobody would have to be moral. Most atheists might be moral but they don’t have to.

      Ideologies can be believed in but they don’t matter for a real atheist. For example if an atheist agrees with Marx’ theories about injustice and what a just society would look like it will still not oblige him to anything. The same goes for other ideologies.
      Religious people who follow non-religious ideologies are idiots. It means that they believe in a God who created the world with a clear purpose but are not following His instructions.

      Therefore both atheists and Christian/other believers are the same for me. They are not consistent in following their premises.

      And I will mention again that I don’t believe that atheist are evil. I am only saying that they have no binding reason to be good. But most do choose to be good.


    • Hi Rider, thank you for expounding on some of your thoughts.

      I want to start with something you said towards the end of that last comment, you said, “Religious people who follow non-religious ideologies are idiots. It means that they believe in a God who created the world with a clear purpose but are not following His instructions.” You know there are Islamic theocratic countries you could move to, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia, and Yemen as a few examples where the government will let you live more closely in line with Allah’s Instructions, and you could already live in one of those countries, I mean I don’t know, but don’t you find it necessary to live in one of those countries so you can be consistent in following your premises? Because it seems to me you are advocating for theocratic governments, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but that is how it is coming across to me, and I just don’t want you to be hypocritical to your own beliefs.

      You also make this statement, “Muslims may support candidates that will be more friendly to them but without allegiance.”
      I’m curious why do you assume here that Muslims may support candidates that will be more friendly to them but without allegiance, but that Christians and Atheists are somehow incapable of supporting candidates that will be more friendly to them but without allegiance? That makes no sense at all. I’m not trying to be rude here, but through your comments you seem to consistently be giving yourself and your “true faith” a bunch of imaginary attributes and then saying “you don’t belong to this true faith, so you can’t have these attributes” even though there is nothing that would preclude them from exhibiting those very same behaviors. Now you are even into the No True Scotsman fallacy with other Muslims, I just have to say how great it must be for you that you’ve found not only the one true religion, but the one true interpretation of that religion. What do you say to other Muslims who know they have the “True interpretation” of Islam and that you are just one of those other disbelievers? And not only that but you’ve become an expert on true atheism and true Christianity as well, that is quite a feat. Again I’m not trying to be rude, this is just what I am observing, I am finding what I am perceiving to be your arrogance as really astounding.

      “The point is that without an afterlife or consequences that come from a deity nobody would have to be moral. Most atheists might be moral but they don’t have to.”
      In what way is Nihilism the logical consequence of atheism? This is the real meat and potatoes here. Just because you believe that a deity is necessary to provide meaning to one’s life doesn’t mean I have to believe that a deity is necessary to provide meaning to one’s life. That is you trying to project your religious view onto me, and frankly I don’t appreciate it, and honestly I don’t think your logic here is very sound. To start with, you have without reason or explanation switched the conversation from lives having meaning to morality which is a different conversation altogether. But let’s look at your thoughts on how an afterlife is needed, and how that affects both meaning and morality.

      Eternity is the ultimate meaninglessness of the universe. It is the fleetingness of life that makes it meaningful. Meaning is found in the peaks and the valleys of life and that any day might be your last day. If you and everybody you know is going to wake up in paradise tomorrow, and everyday after that for eternity, there is nothing you can do improve their life or make it worse, same thing goes for an eternity in torment there is nothing you can do to make it better or worse. There is no meaning to that, that is just mind numbing existence.

      In regards to morality atheists are the only ones truly free to be moral individuals. If someone drops their wallet in front of me, and I return it to him because I think he is going to give me a reward. Sure I did the “right thing” but I didn’t do it because the action was good, I did it because I was hoping to get something out of it. Religious folks beholden to an eternity of either paradise or torment always have that carrot and stick in front of them. That isn’t to say it is wrong to be rewarded for doing good things, but ultimately who is more moral the person who does the right thing expecting no eternal reward, or the one who is storing up treasures in paradise?
      You say that without the consequences only a deity can provide no one would have to be moral. No one has to be moral even with the consequences that deities provide. There are people who believe in deities whether that is Allah or God and still do terrible things, isn’t that what the whole free will thing is about. Of course if you believe in an omniscient omnipotent deity who likes to be directly involved and everything happens for a reason then you don’t have free will, you only have the illusion of free will, but that is a different conversation.

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    • There are different views in Islam and I am judging based on mine. Other Muslims may also judge me.

      Something cannot have a value from itself. Only a God can give values to something and this only matters if it is being enforced. So morality is only consequent with belief in religion.


  2. I don’t think that in an atheistic state of existence (let’s suppose that’s possible) there can be something more alive than the interactions of matter according to the immutable laws of nature, much less a thing whose life would matter.


    • Byblacksheep raises an interesting point – religious morality is reward-motivated. It’s almost like a form of training in that regard – people follow a specific doctrine, not out of altruism but because they believe they will benefit in some way shape or form.

      But there are questionable moral practices here. It is not atheism which motivates the denial of rights to homosexuals. It is not atheism which motivates or justifies regarding women as second-class citizens in some countries. Atheism has never started wars (and please, let’s not conflate atheism with political systems). Atheists don’t follow a code where a deity says ‘thou shall not kill’ then slaughters people on a whim.


  3. I’m going to try and weigh in here over the next couple of days (and address a few points I didn’t get around to before).


  4. Ok, something of a response:


    Last time around, a point was mentioned about alcohol and how it relates to morality – I had argued that our morality is a consequence of an evolutionary need to ensure the survival of our species – and I stand by that. The argument about alcohol consumption was a bit specious if I’m honest, and doesn’t invalidate my earlier point. One of the other consequences of human evolution is our remarkable brain, our consciousness and our ability to engaging in thinking and reasoning (or lack thereof) that defines us as individuals. Our ancestors came together in groups and developed new means of exchanging ideas, which in turn led to new ideas and accelerated our development.

    At some point, we became self-aware on a level that set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, but this doesn’t mean our instincts – good and bad – left us. Our survival instinct has been a huge part of our collective empathy. Our ability to think as individuals – this leads to decisions that some consider good, some consider bad.

    The idea that an atheist doesn’t have any morals just doesn’t hold up. Atheists don’t go around murdering and pillaging because they believe there to be no consequences to their actions. There’s nothing to back up the idea that Atheists are more violent, or more amoral.


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