Surprisingly, the most popular verse in the entire Bible rejects the Trinity idea.

Perhaps the most quoted verse from the entire Bible:

d589e2d4811587ab7706517e048b6ac5

then consider this: 

life-john_17-3

Jesus speaks to Another as the “only true God”, a Being clearly other than himself. To believe in this Being and the Messenger whom He has sent is eternal life. Nothing more, nothing less.



Categories: Bible

75 replies

  1. the sender is not the sent
    the sent is not the sender

    the sender sends the sent

    the sent is sent

    the sent and the sender are 1 sender ?

    what the heck this lol?

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Paul, it is superb how you connected these two verses and showed the definition of eternal life as explicitly mentioned in John 17:3

    Thanks

    Liked by 3 people

  3. LOL

    It just gets worse and worse.

    How on earth does this disprove the trinity?

    Like

  4. Your conclusion doesn’t follow Paul, thus invalidating your intended argument.

    You can’t assume your own theology into a text to disprove another. There is a name for such a thing, as you know after posting about fallacious reasoning.

    Why now are you so quick to abandon logic?

    Further, you mixed the texts- we are to *know* God and Jesus, not just believe. Do you know Allah, Paul?

    Like

    • You cannot deny that Jesus points away from himself to One whom he calls “the one true God”. Therefore trinitarianism which claims Jesus as the one true God, is false.

      Quite simple really.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Elementary, my dear Paulus….Elementary.

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Sam

      you logic is

      *When Jesus says he is sent, you say he himself is the sender
      *When Jesus says he and his fathers are two different beings , you say both are one ONE.
      *When Jesus says he can by himself do nothing, you say Jesus can do everything.
      *When Jesus says his knowledge is limited, you say his knowledge in unlimited.
      *When Jesus says he has a GOD, you say Jesus himself is God. Little do you realize that will result into ad infinitum
      *When Jesus bows down and worships God, you say you will worship Jesus instead the one whom Jesus worshiped.

      Well this is what can be calledl “Christian logic”

      Like

    • RM,
      Don’t flatter them, It’s more like “Christian Illogic.”

      Liked by 1 person

    • If it was simple and elementary, why do you rely on arguments that are irrational? You appear not to realise that your conclusions aren’t following from your premises.

      I repeat: do you know Allah Paul?

      Like

    • you can keep asking your questions Paulus – I choose not to answer. Something to do with not feeding trolls…

      Liked by 1 person

    • Or more likely you realise that your faith disagrees with Isa’s

      Like

  5. But you left out the context of John 17:3, which is John 17:1-5.

    Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
    2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
    3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
    4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

    5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:1-5

    Jesus is in His incarnation body on earth, and praying to the Father. This passage is against modalism or Sabellianism or “Jesus only-ism” (denial of the Trinity; and saying that the Father became flesh, and there is only one person of God, rather than one substance in three persons.

    From being on earth and praying to the Father in heaven, of course He is going to refer to Him as “the only true God”, since there is only one God. But that does not mean that Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are not also God by the same substance, the same essence, the same nature.

    Verse 5 shows this:
    5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:5

    Shows the eternality of the Son, the Word.

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1

    “In the beginning was the Word” = the eternality into the past of the Word / the Son
    “and the Word was with God” = the Son and the Father in personal relationship with one another, spiritually – facing one another in conversation and eternal fellowship.
    “and the Word was God” = the Word and the Father have the same nature, but are not the same person.

    The Father sent the Son to earth to do the work of the redemption (John 3:16) and John 17:1-5 is all fully compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity, and in fact, understood properly, actually teaches and proves the doctrine of the Trinity came from the Bible.

    see here also:

    http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/01/muslim-agrees-with-greek-of-john-11.html

    Like


    • Jesus is in His incarnation body on earth, and praying to the Father.”

      not again.

      1 person, 2 natures . if the same WHO prayed to the OTHER who, then the WHo who prayed PRAYED through both NATURES because both natures belong to the SAME who and the WHO is the who who is having access to the other who WHO sits in heaven.

      Like

    • Why is Me capitalized. There is no capitalization in Greek.

      Also, existing from before does not entail being uncreated according to ancients.

      Aquinas thought the universe was eternal but that it was eternally a creation of God.

      Like

    • Guess Mr Temple isn’t going to change anytime soon. Quite shocking I have to show how unimpressive the explanation he adopted from James White is (years after I did the first refutation).
      To begin with anyway, HAVING glory with God before the world began is no good proof of divinity. Unitarians have afterall argued using 2Tim 1v9 that the trinitarian logic (on John 17v5) by default deifies every christian. Below is their version of its exegesis.
      http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/john-17-5
      In several debates, James White craftily replaced the word ‘had’ with ‘shared’. Although admittedly a smart move (I’ve seen no debater who challenged it), it is never used by John. Wishful theology seems to be a perfect name for it.
      Trinitarian theology has for centuries taught that although Jesus became human, his divinity was never lost. While on earth, he remained an equal Theos with the father. As brother Williams wrote, having him call the father ‘the only true God’ is a devastating blow to the trinity. (The only true God is made up of the father, the Son and holy spirit). Mr Temple’s/James White’s approaches are too unitarian to be taken with any seriousness.
      Alhamdulillah I left christianity. Can’t imagine what I would have told my creator had I died one.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Nope. God’s election and choosing us “from all eternity” is about His foreknowledge, purpose, plan, election, predestination, as in Ephesians 1:4-5. But that is totally different than “restore to me the glory that I had with you before the creation of the world.” “had” = possessing, reality, rather than in a predetermined plan. You logic fails totally.

      Like

    • Nope. God’s election and choosing us in 2 Timothy 1:9 – “from all eternity” is about His foreknowledge, purpose, plan, election, predestination, as in Ephesians 1:4-5. But that is totally different than John 17:5 “restore to me the glory that I had with you before the creation of the world.” “had” = possessing, reality, rather than in a predetermined plan. You logic fails totally.

      Like

    • It is an honor that you put me with Dr. James White , an excellent Christian theologian and apologist.

      Like

    • and raving fundamentalist..

      Liked by 1 person

    • “raving” is not a fair word to use in intellectual discussion. It is ad hominem and you violated Surah 29:46 in your Da’wa method.

      “a fundamentalist” = one who believes in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. In the west, we “fundamentalists” are the few who still hold to Biblical marriage – one man and one woman – Adam and Eve. Genesis 1-2; Matthew 19:3-6. More and more churches are going liberal. The Liberal theology and scholars you like to quote are also the same groups that work from the same presuppositions that now say homosexuality is ok and so called “same sex marriage” is ok.

      Like

    • Quite a funny dodge. Guess you aren’t very smart Sir Temple, are you?
      Anyway, very few biblical versions used the craftily worded phrase ‘from eternity’. An overwhelmingly large chunk seem to prefer its synonym ‘before time began’. The KJV, NIV, NET, Douay-Rhamis and Darby are a few examples.

      I find your ‘James White merry-go-round approach’ disgusting (as usual) by the way. It expectedly offers no good reason to believe that there is the supposed ‘difference’ between John 17v5 and 2Tim 1v9. Indeed, as logic would dictate, the presence of christians ‘in the mind of God’ before time could not (unless pre-supposed) have excluded Jesus. If grace could be given to them before they existed, Christ could have had glory in the mind of God as well. As much as ‘HAD’ means ‘POSSESSING’, ‘GIVEN’ means the same (‘POSSESSING’). Guess I probably was wrong afterall. Unitarians seem a far more consistent bunch than their Christ-worshiping adversaries.
      Although you may not have given it a thought, your promoted approach does present a new problem to the trinity. A smart muslim brilliantly highlighted it with the following questions
      ‘Why would Jesus need to have his glory restored? Did he lose it during the (fictional) incarnation?’
      Try not use the typical ‘it(?) was veiled from him’ argument (against me) sir. Will only make christianity look more stupid.
      Ever watched James White’s debate with Bashir Vania. Think you should. It might help you realize how helpless the christian is in the John 17 case.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Why is Me capitalized.

    Out of respect for Jesus Christ as Lord and God in the flesh, because we Christians believe in His Deity, per John 1:1-5; 1:14; 20:28; Hebrews 1:6; 1:8; 1:10 – 12; Romans 9:5; Colossians 1:15-20; John 8:24; 8:56-58; 10:30, Philippians 2:5-8; John 17:5; etc.

    There is no capitalization in Greek.

    Yes there is, but maybe not for this particular verse in this instance. There is actually capitalization and lower case letters in Greek.

    We agree that the capitalization in English is the result of the tradition of theological interpretation according to the verses about that I showed you. by studying them deeply, you should see how the early church came to the conclusion that Jesus is God by nature, but also fully human, and that existed with the Father in eternity past (John 1:1 and 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8) He became flesh, and these truths point to the Deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Some Greek manuscripts are all capitals ( Unicials) and some are all lower case. (miniscules) But many Greek manuscripts show the use of the Nomina Sacra (Holy, Sacred Name) used for Jesus also.

    English Meaning Greek Word Nominative (Subject) Genitive (Possessive)
    God Θεός ΘΣ ΘΥ

    Lord Κύριος ΚΣ ΚΥ

    Jesus Ἰησοῦς ΙΣ ΙΥ

    Christ/Messiah Χριστός ΧΣ ΧΥ

    Son Υἱός ΥΣ ΥΥ

    Spirit/Ghost Πνεῦμα ΠΝΑ ΠΝΣ

    Like

    • “He became flesh, and these truths point to the Deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity.”

      who is the “he” and if it “became flesh” then the “he ” was still FULLY god, then FULLY god/he experienced FULLY human nature.

      when he (your god) prayed then he prayed as FULLY god and fully human, right?

      Like

    • Yes; this is not a problem. Philippians 2:5-8 and John 1:1-5 and John 1:14, demonstrates these truths.

      Like

    • do you know richard carrier and other mythcists are using Philippians 2:5-8 to prove that paul did not know of a miracle working jew? which indicates that the father is the only one who brought jesus back to life because jesus was stripped of his “powers” while he emptied himself

      http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11435

      Like

    • Carrier is completely dis-credited. His interpretations carry no weight with any Christian. I listened to his debate years ago with a Christian (William Lane Craig or Mike Licona, ?) The Christian won.

      Like

    • so you believed in an emptied god who was humanized

      but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant”

      emptied god who is empty of what ?

      emptied god can no longer be fully god but emptied god who lacks?

      Like

    • “emptied” means that by becoming a man, by taking on a human nature, he veiled his prerogatives and advantages of using His divine powers temporarily. Dr. White has a scholarly article on Philippians 2, The Carmen Christi.

      Like

    • “Yes; this is not a problem”

      empty god ? what does that mean?

      god is all seeing

      all hearing

      and all knowing

      assume god emptied himself of his all seeing

      does that mean god is infinite to the fullest degree?

      is he still the ULTIMATE and uncaused ?

      do you agree, empty god said ” i and the father are one”

      then the same empty god said , ” no one knows the hour…”

      but this is an empty god speaking

      Like

    • “means that by becoming a man, by taking on a human nature, he veiled his prerogatives and advantages of using His divine powers temporarily. Dr. White has a scholarly article on Philippians 2, The Carmen Christi. ”

      becoming a man? “taking on…” “veiled”

      god put a disability within himself ?

      becoming something other than what it was before = different thing

      veiling implies that god no longer knew everything, saw everything and heard everything and had power over everything

      what then were the divine powers doing ? you have

      father
      ghost
      divine nature on reserve belonging to an empty god which is currently unaccessed?

      since god was disabled , then can anyone say “fully god” ?

      Like

    • 1 PERSON ,2 natures, BUT you must add “of using his divine powers temporarily”

      temporarily 1 person who had a disabled divine nature but a fully human nature prayed to the father?
      isn’t this temporarily NOT fully god?

      Like

    • No; it just means that by becoming a man and for 33 years operating as a man, he voluntarily laid aside the privileges of using all of his divine attributes.
      http://jesusiscreator.org/?p=298

      Like

    • “No; it just means that by becoming a man and for 33 years operating as a man,”

      33 years operating as a man? 1 person, 2 natures operated as man and empty god for 33 years?


      he voluntarily laid aside the privileges of using all of his divine attributes.”

      1 person, 2 natures (- using “all of his divine attributes” )

      what kind of a god is this ?

      is it just a person who is fully human then with some or no divine powers?

      Like

    • “33 years operating as a man, he voluntarily laid aside the privileges of using all of his divine attributes.”

      look , if a human voluntarily takes off his eyes and is able to access them any time, then when you saw the blind human would you say he is blind or voluntarily blind ?

      or voluntarily disabled?

      experiencing the loss of sight means experiencing the loss of sight regardless if it is voluntarily or not

      if god is weak in sight , hearing and power, then he fully experiences loss in these powers

      then the question is

      why do you have a problem with your god praying a empty god to the father?

      Like

    • why then do you have a problem with your empty god, praying to the father?

      why then do you have a problem with god saying he has a god? in gods current state as an empty god god has a god who is not empty of his powers.

      Like

    • I have no problem with Jesus as the eternal Son of God (meaning He has the same substance/essence as God the Father), and “Son of Man”, fully human, praying to the Father, while on earth. No problem.
      “empty” is metaphorical for humility and expresses His taking on of a human nature, and choosing to live as a man and learn and suffer and be subjected to human things such as hunger, tiredness, thirst, crying, not knowing all things about the future.

      Like

    • “his taking on of a human nature, and choosing to live as a man and learn and suffer and be subjected to human things such as hunger, tiredness, thirst, crying, not knowing all things about the future.”

      “his” is referring to fully god existing as a fully human being and knowing what it is to feel, learn and suffer?
      the “his” is FULLY god, right?
      fully god knowing what it is to worship “my father who is greater than i”

      your god or your “his” or your FULLY god is praying to his father while he is fully god and fully human ie god is seeking ANOTHER god.

      Like


    • No; it just means that by becoming a man and for 33 years operating as a man, he voluntarily laid aside the privileges of using all of his divine attributes.”

      i don’t know what kind of diy god you people worship

      you are saying the 1 person ” he” is switching within his own divine nature
      but he remain FULLY human

      the 1 person fully experienced the “switched off” divine nature regardless if you call it “voluntarily” or not.

      what kind of lego god is this?

      Like

    • “empty” is metaphorical for humility and expresses His taking on of a human nature, and choosing to live as a man and learn and suffer and be subjected to human things such as hunger, tiredness, thirst, crying, not knowing all things about the future.”

      /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

      A = divine powers B = finite created

      C = Person

      your god, according to you, always existed as C with A, ALWAYS.

      but you have him existing as B

      so C with A is existing as B

      which means that when B does your list, C with A experiences your list.

      there clearly is a fusion or mixture of both natures. anyone who denies this is a LIAR.

      Like

    • quote:
      “empty” is metaphorical for humility and expresses His taking on of a human nature, and choosing to live as a man and learn and suffer and be subjected to human things such as hunger, tiredness, thirst, crying, not knowing all things about the future.

      A:
      a human with human nature thinks 100 % like a dog

      is the human mind 100 % dog mind? if yes, what is inherent within the human which make it think like a dog?

      B:
      a dog with 100 % human mind thinks like a human

      is the animal a human thinker ? if yes , what is it using to think like a human ?
      something inherent within it?

      Like

    • Hi Edward
      Why don’t you use the scriptures and stop talking nonsense on the blog. This is the reason we had the first council in Acts 15 because people started talking nonsense.

      Here you are trying to words in a Christians mouth when in actual fact it’s your ideas you are trying to force on us.

      Where do the scriptures of Christ having “multiple personality disorder”

      Like

  7. Hi Omar
    I see you congratulated Paul on his linking on John 17:3 and John 3:16

    Well I like the way John 17:5 links well with John 3:13 and John 6:62 because they speak about his existence before he came to earth.

    Then I see Edward talking about Jesus praying…well prayer is actually talking and yes Jesus was talking to the Father which is what he did before he came to Earth.

    And again how on earth can the Father and the Son make their abode in the believer?

    Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    So according to these two scriptures the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost abide within the believer.

    Jesus says in John 14:23 that he and the Father will take up residence within the person who loves him and keeps his commandments.

    Like

  8. Ken Temple

    November 3, 2016 • 7:26 pm

    I have no problem with Jesus as the eternal Son of God (meaning He has the same substance/essence as God the Father), and “Son of Man”, fully human, praying to the Father, while on earth. No problem.
    “empty” is metaphorical for humility and expresses His taking on of a human nature, and choosing to live as a man and learn and suffer and be subjected to human things such as hunger, tiredness, thirst, crying, not knowing all things about the future

    I say;
    You should not have any problem with Haile Salassie, Sai Baba, Monkeys, elephants that shits on the street of India, the Greek gods that share the same substance/essence as God and fully human, elephant that shits on the streets of India, monkeys, voodoo snakes while on earth.

    You said;
    “empty” is metaphorical for humility and expresses His taking on of a human nature, and choosing to live as a man and learn and suffer and be subjected to human things such as hunger, tiredness, thirst, crying, not knowing all things about the future

    I say;
    So God Almighty has to learn? blaspheme Ken. Come on repent for saying the Almighty God has o learn. God does not learn from anything.

    Suffer and humiliation defined.

    suffer

    experience or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant):
    “he’d suffered intense pain” · [more]

    synonyms: hurt · ache · be in pain · feel pain · be in distress ·
    be upset · be miserable · undergo · experience · be subjected to · receive · endure · face · hardship · distress · misery · wretchedness · adversity · tribulation · pain · agony · anguish · trauma · torment · torture · hurt · affliction · sadness · unhappiness · sorrow · grief · woe · angst · heartache · heartbreak · stress · dolor
    dated

    Source: https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+is+suffer&form=EDGNTC&qs=PF&cvid=8577f7098a0042dfbff8b9fecc79c68c&pq=what+is+suffer

    Ken, the above words do not fit for Almighty God. Your “experience” will let you call God “miserable”, “wretched”, “torment”, “agony”, “torture” etc. and you may not realize is a great sin unless you meet God your creator. You can repent and become a Muslim. It is not too late

    humble

    VERB
    lower (someone) in dignity or importance:
    “I knew he had humbled himself to ask for my help”
    synonyms: humiliate · abase · demean · lower · degrade · debase ·
    mortify · shame · abash · cut down to size · deflate · make eat humble pie · take down a peg or two · settle someone’s hash · make eat crow

    Source: https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+is+humble&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=what+is+humble&sc=5-14&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=0ED1ED2BBB5340BEBE2B4846ED6D7E0A

    Ken, you humiliate, demean, lower, degrade and shame Almighty God before your salvation? I think your “experience” is satanic.

    Thanks.

    Like

    • “Intellect”
      Thanks for repeated your schtick –
      “Haile Salassie, Sai Baba, Monkeys, elephants . . . ”
      for the 1,000 time.
      Hilarious

      You must have that saved and ready to just paste again and again and again.

      LOL

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ken Temple

      You said;
      “Intellect”
      Thanks for repeated your schtick –
      “Haile Salassie, Sai Baba, Monkeys, elephants . . . ”
      for the 1,000 time.
      Hilarious
      You must have that saved and ready to just paste again and again and again.
      LOL

      I say;
      Any time you mention God Man, I will mention Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and the rest because they are the same God Men and creature Gods including Monkey Gods, Elephant Gods, Snake Gods etc.

      I am just reminding you there are more creature Gods like Jesus and you do not know at a certain point in time God did not reveal himself as a Hindu God i.e. Monkey, Elephant, man etc.

      Besides, I am not the only repetitive person here. You are also repetitive in this;

      “Jesus as the eternal Son of God (meaning He has the same substance/essence as God the Father), and “Son of Man”, fully human, praying to the Father, while on earth.”

      That usually triggers Sai Baba and Emperor Haile Selaissie as God Men. I know add other creature gods like monkeys, elephants, snakes etc.

      If you believe God can become creature to love and save you then how do you know He(God) did not become a creature to love others?

      Thanks.

      Like

  9. Ken Temple

    humiliation is the hallmark of the devil, demons, bad Jinns and Satan. Find the video by Mohammed Timothy Humble who converted into Islam and studied Islamic religion at the University of Medina and specializes in Jinns/demons/satan etc.

    God Almighty does not need any humbleness or humiliation before he forgives sins or give something. It is satan and his lieutenants that needs humiliation before they forgive something. They will ask you to humiliate yourself and humiliate the Almighty God before they will help you in magic, tricks and other things they may know.

    What one being knows is not what another knows. The demons Jesus casts on this earth from people know how to dwell in people for Jesus to cast them out and they also know other things human beings do not know. To get some you must be ready to humiliate yourself and humiliate God.

    Humialion is the hallmark of devil not God. Any thing that has to do with humiliation is not from God but from satan. God does not need to humiliate Himself before He forgives sins. Abraham, Moses, Noah etc. did not know that God has to humiliate Himself to forgive sins.

    Thanks.

    Like

  10. Ken, you humiliate, demean, lower, degrade and shame Almighty God before your salvation?

    It would be that if I had made it up; but God is the one who reveals Himself. He became flesh. It is written.

    Revealed, Written about by prophets and apostles, and taught for 2000 years before me. I am a nobody.
    John 1:1-5; 1:14
    Philippians 2:5-8

    And 600 years later, the Qur’an confirmed the Bible.
    Surah 10:94
    Surah 5:47

    God humbled Himself out of love for us; that is amazing and beautiful – even Abdullah Kunde admitted that.

    https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/debate-can-god-become-a-man-james-white-vs-abdullah-kunde/

    In Abdullah’s closing statement at the end: 
2:25:56 –
    “ how God gave Himself, according to the Christians, and you know, I mean, that is beautiful . . . “ but you know what, we have so much more to be thankful for . . . air, food . . . ability to stand here and speak . . . we need to be more thankful . . . for existence itself . . . “

    “Now, I certainly do appreciate . . . I do appreciate the idea God being so holy that we must have a mediator is beautiful, in fact its quite humbling, and I will be quite frank with you, I find it hard to listen to that 15 or 12 minutes of sermon, and not feel emotionally impressed.” Abdullah Kunde

    Like

    • ken,

      “It would be that if I had made it up; but God is the one who reveals Himself. He became flesh. It is written.”

      how do we know in another world he isn’t a menstruating god who suffers for persecuted women?
      a god that bleeds and shares his pain with women?

      Like

    • Because those things are not written in the NT. The Revelation from God in the NT keeps us in line on what the incarnation means.

      Like

    • Ken Temple

      November 3, 2016 • 9:54 pm

      Ken, you humiliate, demean, lower, degrade and shame Almighty God before your salvation?
      It would be that if I had made it up; but God is the one who reveals Himself. He became flesh. It is written.
      Revealed, Written about by prophets and apostles, and taught for 2000 years before me. I am a nobody.
      John 1:1-5; 1:14
      Philippians 2:5-

      The above did not say God humiliated himself. If you think it says that, Prophets Noah, Abraham etc. to Jesus did not know that.

      Show me in the OT where Abraham or Moses thinks God humiliated Himself?

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Humbled is different than humiliated. Learn English better, brother in humanity.

      Like

    • correction

      Show me in the OT where Abraham or Moses thought God humiliated Himself?

      Like

    • “I do appreciate the idea God being so holy that we must have a mediator is beautiful, in fact its quite humbling, and I will be quite frank with yo”

      god went to hades and was all lonely . so sad . he let his wrath punish him . what a helpless and weak god. so sad. he couldn’t carry his cross. so sad. he needed salt and vinegar. he was looking forward to go back to heaven. if you don’t celebrate gods recovery, he will send u to hell.

      this is what he was emotional about ?

      Like

    • “Show me in the OT where Abraham or Moses thought God humiliated Himself?”

      this is a difficult thing to do . abraham and moses did not think that yhwh would take his own life to appease himself . ken has been struggling to show one clear verse where

      1. yhwh = asham
      2. yhwh = suffering servant
      3. yhwh crushes himself and becomes helpless

      Like

  11. Hey guys
    Why don’t you just read the bible as it is and stop coming up with all these ridiculous things…A is this and B is that.

    John 1:14…The word (who was with and is God) became flesh and dwelt among us.
    You see exactly what it says!

    Like

    • i see a god became 100% human in his divine nature.

      Like

    • Ken Temple,
      “It would be that if I had made it up; but God is the one who reveals Himself. He became flesh. It is written.”

      I say;
      Other people also believed God Men like Emperor Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and even creatures like monkeys, elephants etc were revealed by their scripture. How do you know at a point in time God did not reveal Himself as a Hindu God?- Dr. Shabbir Ally.

      I only repeat worshiping creatures when you repeat you worship a creature- a man Jesus Christ.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • quote:
      The greatest among the gods have drawn close to our city…

      Both Demeter and Demetrius…

      Hail to you, O Son of the mighty god Poseidon and of Aphrodite.

      The other gods dwell so far away,

      or else they have no ears,

      or they do not exist, or do not care at all about us

      We see you in our midst,

      not a wooden or stone presence, but bodily

      And so we pray to you… bring about peace

      for you are the Lord (κύριος)
      end quote

      quote:
      Notice what is said of Demetrius. He is one of the “greatest gods,” the son of God” (specifically of the gods Poseidon and Aphrodite), one who is “near” his own people – not remote, off on Mount Olympus, the one who “brings peace,” who can be called “Lord.”

      These ascriptions to Demetrius should sound familiar to anyone who knows about early Christianity, where Jesus too was known as the incarnation of a divine being, the Son of God, the bringer of peace, the Lord, and God in the flesh. My ultimate point: Jesus was not the first to be called such things, or thought to be a kind of incarnation of the divine. He had predecessors.

      Like

    • bro intellect

      Like

    • Hi Edward.
      I dont why you are apoealing to Erhman he believes in the crucifixion, are you going to refute him on that.

      You didnt address the scriptures i sent and you send me Greek mythology

      Come on man discuss the text Paul posted.

      Like

  12. ” and “Son of Man”, fully human, praying to the Father, while on earth. No problem.”

    is the “son of man” fully god praying through the “son of man” ?

    does god PRAY through the flesh ?

    Like

    • you have clearly one god seeking his greater god THROUGH his own mind.
      this means fully god is seeking HIGHER god through his human mind which is also fully god @ the same time.

      this is a messed up and confusing religion.

      Like

    • whenever talking to christians what people learn is that

      1. either god with full divine nature prays through the flesh

      2. god EXISTS a SEPARATE existence, a human being and divine being (maybe as animal being somewhere in india or maybe hosts of heaven)

      3. the humanity is diminished in favour of divinity

      4. the divinity is diminished in favour of humanity

      5. a god suffering from multiple personality disorder

      6. as everyone knows when infants cry sometimes they have stomach issues, god exist as an infant with stomach issues but his humanity cancels out the ability to inform his mum , “mum it’s my stomach”

      7. we learn through common sense that 2 minds are never 1. and 2 minds cannot co-exist at the same time. why then is it fine for god to exist with a mind which prays ? you have access to everything in the heavens and the earth , why make a request to save your “deeply troubled soul” ?

      8. unless you literally do worship and empty and feeble god .

      Like

    • Edward do yourself a favour and don’t swear at me if you don’t like what I have said fine but deal with it in a way that is respectful if you write something I will respond to you.

      Like

    • Hey
      You can call whatever you want keep swearing and cursing and I doubt very much you are real Muslim, should I cut and paste what you are actually saying to me?

      Are you in London or go speakers corner I will gladly meet you and see what you say to my face.

      So you can either debate or carry on swearing and cursing you choose.

      Paul will never see me come on his blog and carry in that way even if I don’t agree with him.

      And I’m not going to argue and swear and curse like you which is why I won’t speak on my blog with you.

      Like

  13. H20= Steam. Ice. Water. Each is H20. Steam is hot. Ice is cold. Water is in between. Steam is a vapor. Ice is solid. Water is a liquid. Steam can push the blade on a turbine and create electricity. Ice can be skated upon and can keep food safe over time. Water is essential for life; it lubricates our bodies.

    Each form is distinct. Each form has specific purposes. Each form is made of the exact same material.

    3 in 1. God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit (or Paraclete, comforter). Each consists of the exact same God.

    Like

  14. Hello Paul,

    I have responded at length to your opening post in THIS NEW THREAD.

    Grace and peace,

    David

    Liked by 2 people

Trackbacks

  1. John 17:1-5 and John 3:16 points to the doctrine of the Trinity. | Apologetics and Agape
  2. Unsurprisingly, the most popular verse in the entire Bible exposes Muhammad as a false prophet and antichrist. – Answering Islam Blog

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