P1 – Stand against hate! Mansur & Paul | Speakers corner | Hyde Park

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Categories: Bible, Christianity, Daw'ah, Islam, Islamophobia, London, Speakers Corner

87 replies

  1. Hi Paul,
    at 2:30, you claimed that the New American standard version says “they all doubted”.

    Sorry, you are wrong.

    16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

    18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

    the statistics of cultural, nominal “Christians” does not matter, since the west is full of people who may go to church sometimes and claim they are Christians but are influenced by the liberal theology you promote all the time.

    As I wrote before, if they don’t believe in the resurrection of Jesus, then they are not Christians. Liberal theology is not Christian at all.

    Read J. Gresham Machen’s book, “Christianity and Liberalism” – Liberal theology guts Christianity of faith and doctrine and has only a shell of some of its ethics.

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  2. Some of them struggled at the beginning with doubt, but later the gospels and book of Acts shows that they believed in the resurrection.

    Luke 24:32

    Luke 24:39

    Luke 24:44-53

    Acts chapters 1-4 and beyond

    John chapter 20-21

    John 2:22

    So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

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    • In Matthew “some” or even “all” the disciples still did not believe even after they had a resurrection experience.

      Very likely to be historical on the criterion of embarrassment.

      Liked by 2 people

    • The text is being honest with the human struggle of accepting that someone has really risen from the dead – an amazing thing – the most amazing thing in history!!

      But Acts chapters 1-4 and beyond and Galatians 1 and 1 Cor. 15 show that the disciples believed and testified and witnessed the resurrection and testified to it and gave their lives for it and were persecuted and most were killed for their faith, except for John, but even he was exiled to the island of Patmos (Revelation chapter 1).

      For the gospels to leave it written that “some doubted” or “they couldn’t believe it for joy” or Jesus saying “why do you doubt? Touch me and see that a ghost does not have flesh and bone that you see that I have” Luke 24:39 – this gives the historicity of it even more credibility, because the criterion of embarrassment shows they were not trying to make up stuff and conceal the reality of their doubts at the beginning. It is very reasonable and understandable and the order of that at the beginning, and then later their boldness in Acts 2-5, proves my point.

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    • All you have proved is that some gospels show all the disciples believing Matthew does not. The doubt is more likely to be historical using the criterion of embarrassment

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    • Ken, actually, having a sea being split in front of me is more amazing in my subjective view.
      People in the bible have been resurrected before anyways. David wood’s son was ‘resurrected’ by his wife as well. They sure didn’t seem to doubt it.

      It also seems fishy that the disciples doubted even though Jesus allegedly predicted his death/resurrection several times.

      Liked by 2 people

    • we have the sea splitting miracle also – Exodus 14:13-26

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    • I know, i was just saying that people rising from the dead isn’t “the most amazing thing in history”, especially if it’s happened many times before, and you’ve been told it’s going to happen. The disciples still somehow doubted.

      Liked by 1 person

    • on the 3rd day, and never to die again, and the ability to go through walls, etc. – it is the most amazing miracle of all.

      The other examples you seem to refer to are resuscitations immediately after the heart stops beating, with a time limit. (not on the 3rd day later) They are not resurrections from the dead like Jesus.

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  3. Mansur quoted this passage:

    وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّلْعَالِمِينَ

    And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge.

    Surah 30:22

    We have all of this in Christianity already, 600 and 1400 years earlier than Islam. Genesis chapters 1-12; Revelation 5:9 (some from every nation, tribe, language, people group are redeemed by the blood of the lamb; 7:9; Psalm 96:3; Psalm 67; Matthew 28:19; Isaiah 49:6; Genesis chapter 10 to 12:3 and 22:18 – “through you and your seed, all the nations will be blessed.” Galatians 3:6-8; John 3:16
    The unity of Jews and non-Jews in the church in Ephesians 2:11-22; Colossians 3:9-12, Romans 14-15, etc.

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    • Why don’t you quote a verse or two here as well? I don’t think anyone would bother to look them up.

      Liked by 1 person

    • 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

      “Worthy are You to take the [a]book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

      Revelation 5:9

      Genesis 10- all the nations, languages, peoples listed from the 3 sons of Noah

      Genesis 11 – Tower of Babel and how they came to have different languages

      Genesis 12:1-3
      God chose Abraham and said
      “I will bless you in order that you will be a blessing to all the nations.”
      see also
      Genesis 18:18
      Genesis 22:18
      Genesis 26:4
      Genesis 28:14
      Genesis 49:10 – to him (Judah – Jesus came from the tribe of Judah) is the obedience of the peoples

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    • Lol what’s john 3:16 doing there in the references?

      Liked by 1 person

    • “God so loved the world” = all people from all languages and ethnicites

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    • Ironically Ken, your interpretation of John 3:16 refutes James White and even your own view concerning Limited Atonement, unless you are now going to back track in order to save face. Noe what you wrote:

      Ken Temple
      April 10, 2017 • 3:58 pm
      “God so loved the world” = all people from all languages and ethnicites

      All people from all languages and ethnicities means you just affirmed unlimited atonement. Way to go Ken since I am now going to quote your post here for all to see!

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    • You are right in the sense I was not as accurate as I could have been. I should have written “all kinds of people from all languages and ethnicities”

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    • Dr. White nuked and deep fried you and your arguments at the end of the DL today.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ken, deep fried who? Williams or me?

      Liked by 1 person

    • He must mean me 😦

      I’ve never been deep fried before.

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    • Williams he meant me since White went on a raving tirade against me for calling him out to debate me on Limited Atonement.

      Ken, since you were so giddy over your idol’s ranting and raving which was filled with nothing more than ad hominem, then I am sure you are going to love this barbecue of your idol which I just posted publicly for all to see:

      Please pass this on to White again. In the last minutes of his DL show yesterday White read my challenge to debate him on Limited Atonement. Instead of accepting my challenge White went on a condescending rant about why the passages he calls the big 3 (Matthew 23:37, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) are not about limited atonement but about unconditional election. In his repulsive ad hominem response he condescendingly tries to make it seem as if I somehow don’t understand the issue and have lost it. 😉
      In light of his arrogant rant let me now show you why it is White who really has no clue what the issues are. I highly encourage everyone to listen to the beginning of his tirade against David Allen so you can see what the issue is all about. White claims to be addressing the section of Allen’s book addressing White’s book. Guess what folks? ONE OF THE PASSAGES THAT ALLEN RESPONDS TO IS MATTHEW 23:37, WHICH IS ONE OF THE BIG THREE! You see what happens when in your arrogance you really think you happen to be above reproach and God’s gift to the church? How could I not understand the issues WHEN MY CHALLENGE WAS IN THE VERY CONTEXT OF WHITE GOING AFTER ALLEN’S BOOK WHICH DEALT SPECIFICALLY WITH WHITE’S INTERPRETATION OF MATTHEW 23:37? I am starting to feel rather embarrassed for him since this rant shows that he really has no clue what the issues are and is willing to stoop to the bottom of the barrel in order to vilify all those who would dare stand up to his arrogance and mistreatment of fellow Christian brothers.

      Besides, I didn’t insist that we only debate the big 3 but said I would be glad to debate him on the general topic of the limited atonement. But in his attempt to play to his fan base and save face White ignored that and chose to focus on what he thought would make him look good by making me look bad.

      However, what makes this all the more interesting is that, despite all his ranting and raving and ad hominem, WHITE NEVER ACCEPTED MY DEBATE CHALLENGE? Can anyone guess why? And if I am so ignorant of the doctrine THEN WHY DOESN’T WHITE DEBATE ME AND PUT ME IN PLACE, as he is so eager o do with Allen? We all know the real reason as to why he chose to attack my character as opposed to stepping up to the plate and debating me.

      Like I said, the man’s arrogance and ego has gotten out of control (just as his cheap nasty ad hominem against me shows), which is why I said he really needs to repent and step down. He is showing more and more by his rants and mistreatment of fellow Christians, and his love fest with Muslims, that he is truly unfit to remain an elder and an apologist representing Christians.

      P.S.
      Let me implode White’s lie for a second time. As many of my brothers and sisters can testify I did not leave Limited Atonement because of my trying to get back at White. That is a boldfaced lie which only goes to show the arrogance and repulsive attitude of this man. I left it many moons ago because I could no longer reconcile this doctrine with what I saw in Scripture. Moreover, White complains about me posting videos from Steven Anderson even though this is the same man that praised an anti-Trinitarian Muhammadan named Yasir Qadhi whose religion makes it mandatory to blaspheme the true God and malign his Gospel, even going so far as to call him his mentor! At least Anderson is a Trinitarian who does acknowledge and worship the true God, not blaspheme him as White’s mentor does. Therefore, what does this say about White who insults and belittles me for posting stuff from Anderson that are quite good and spot on (even though I have spoke out against his many errors and unchristlike behavior), while praising and bringing in an anti-Trinitarian Muhammadan who is all for the implementation of shariah into a church to spread his propaganda?

      Like I said, this man’s hypocrisy, nasty behavior and arrogance is truly repulsive and reprehensible and he truly does need to repent.

      PPS.
      For those interested in reading where Dr. Allen mentions White’s eisegesis of the big 3, i.e. Matthew 23:37-39, 1 Timothy 2:4, and 2 Peter 3:9, and specifically his handling of Matthew 23:37, it’s found on pp. 550-551 of his book “The Extent of the Atonement.” This should serve as a lesson for White that he should think twice before going on a rant and assuming he knows what he is talking about since we all know what happens whenever someone assumes they know what they are talking about before checking out the facts. 😉

      So Ken what was that about deep fry? 😉

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    • It would definitely be an interesting debate both on these issues and issues of Islam.

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    • It would be an interesting and informative debate, but you would also get deep fried again, Sam ! 😉

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    • Ken what is it with you and deep frying?

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    • Just an expression; as is “nuking” for defeating Sam’s arguments and bad behavior and sinful anger. of course you know this; but I just want to be clear.

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    • you Americans love using violent OTT expressions. It explains a lot

      Liked by 1 person

    • Wow Burhan! I was actually able to make you laugh for once! You see? White isn’t all that bad since he has a knack of bringing enemies together to share some laughs with each other, which is a good thing don’t you think? 😉

      Liked by 1 person

    • Spoken like a true fanboy. How is it going running the James White fan club?

      Correction. By God’s grace I will obliterate the lies and distortions of your idol. Better yet, instead of hiding behind the kilt of your paper champion and idol why don’t you man up and debate me on Limited Atonement? We could do it in my paltalk room and you can even get your master and lord White to come and be your cheer leader as you burn incense to his picture? You game?

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    • I’ve tried to listen to some of your “Pal-Talk” stuff, but the sound quality and format (interruptions, having to rebuke people, expel people from the chat room), etc. makes it not a very good format for a good debate. You constantly have to add your own barbs and bombast and snarkiness all the time, and it makes for suffering trying to listen to your style. I also confess I have never done a formal debate, and I am not as fast a thinker as either Dr. White or you. Honest evaluation and opinion about someone and their arguments does not mean I put them as an idol or am a “fanboy”. He (Dr. White) makes good arguments; in my sincere opinion, and behaves closer to how the Bible says we are suppossed to behave when engaging unbelievers. You however, have dragged Christ’s name into the mud, because all the Muslims constantly bring you up as a bad example because of your sinful behavior and anger and whenever I am trying to explain the gospel power to change a heart and make someone a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10; Romans 6) etc. they constantly ask me if you give evidence of being a true Christian and exhibiting the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You have been bad witness to Muslims, Sam, and you need to repent deeply.

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    • Williams, you sound surprised. You never seen Ken’s master and lord wear Irish kilts? All you need to do is google the name of Ken’s idol and kilt and you will find tons of photos looking like a lil pretty bald Irish lattie.

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    • if White is Scottish I am a pink flamingo

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    • ancestry

      mine (ancestry) is also, on my father’s side; but probably a mixture of English and Scottish.

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    • He is Scottish, not Irish. Using Kent Hovind and Gail Riplinger (both are nut-jobs and discredited) is not a credible thing either.

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    • I mean his ancestry is Scottish; and according to my father, mine is also, on my father’s side; but we Americans are probably a mixture of several different ethnicities.

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    • “They may take our Lord and Savior Jesus………
      But they will never take……… Our FREEDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

      Liked by 2 people

    • But seriously, there is nothing wrong with being proud of ones heritage…as long as that pride does not lead one into arrogance, and feelings of superiority, racism, hatred, etc.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Notice what a nasty inconsistent hypocrite Ken is. He speaks of fruits, and yet spews off some of the nastiest fruits against other Christians, calling them nut jobs and the like, just because they don’t agree with him or his master. And notice how Ken said absolutely nothing about how nasty and vile White came off in mocking me as he read my challenge on his show, a challenge which he never accepted BTW. Ken does nothing to rebuke his idol and master, but instead bends over backwards to justify the the vile nasty arrogant and unchristian behavior of his master and lord James White. Ken truly is a disgusting human being who thinks he can mask it over by pretending to be humble. The problem is that you can’t pretend for too long since your true colors will come shining through as we have seen in the case of his lord White. Unlike this hypocrite, and as Williams can attest, i have never pretended to be something I am not.

      Now Ken to cut off your lame excuses I am willing to come to your church at my expense and debate you on limited atonement. Therefore, instead of hiding behind White’s kilt do you have the courage to stand up for your own man made tradition and defend them for yourself? Yes or no?

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    • They (Gail Ripplinger and Kent Hovind) are discredited and nutty, as is the Westboro Baptist Church (cultic, hate-filled, evil), as is Stephen Anderson. They are bad witnesses for Christ and have dragged Christ’s name into the mud; as you also do by your sinful anger and behavior.

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  4. Also Leviticus 19:18 – “love your neighbor as yourself”
    and
    Leviticus 19:33-34 – “be kind to the alien who lives in your land” and “love him as yourself”.

    Jesus uses this principle in the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37

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  5. Also I John chapters 3 and 4

    God is love

    love your neighbor and love your enemy

    also Matthew 5:44-48

    love your enemy, and pray for those who persecute you

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  6. Really good. Paul and Mansur dovetail well.

    I think this type of presentation is better than the more raucous encounters where ppl get drowned out – although the American fella who enters the dialogue in later parts was trying a bit of that.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Since Paul is trying to use the criterion of embarrassment over a translation discussion, I guess I can assume that Paul now accepts the “satanic verses” based on the same criterion.

    Thanks Paul!!

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  8. This bears repeating for Sam Shamoun:

    He (Dr. White) makes good arguments; in my sincere opinion, and behaves closer to how the Bible says we are suppossed to behave when engaging unbelievers. You, Sam, however, have dragged Christ’s name into the mud, because all the Muslims constantly bring you up as a bad example because of your sinful behavior and anger and whenever I am trying to explain the gospel power to change a heart and make someone a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10; Romans 6) etc. they constantly ask me if you give evidence of being a true Christian and exhibiting the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You have been bad witness to Muslims, Sam, and you need to repent deeply.

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    • Speaking of which, just trot over my facebook pages and see all the comments from Christians who think White is a fake and is not saved, and who also claim that he has dragged the name of Christ into the mud due to his constant hounding of fellow Christians, treating them as dirt while masquerading as a Christian like yourself who claims to be adorning the gospel with grace and beauty. In this regard both of you have truly learned well (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

      Now that we got your ad hominem out of the way, does this mean you will now man up and defend your man made tradition? Or will you continue to pretend that you are a Christian and I am not in order to appeal to sympathy, while hiding behind the kilt of your true master?

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    • Ken, learn from this brother and repent of your idolatry.

      Albert Doulos-Christos

      As a witness for Sam Shamoun, I can tell you right off the bat, Sam abandoned particular redemption years ago. I know this, because two years ago Sam and I were together, I was unsettled in the Spirit when defending and promoting particular redemption as a doctrinal truth. Not knowing Sam’s thoughts, I asked him for his position, and I still remember his reaction, which was a calm smile as he began to explain his history with the doctrine and his abandonment. The verse the Holy Spirit was pleased to use to draw him out of this tradition was 2 peter 2:1. After listening to the last five minutes of James white’s DL, I noticed he is truly a bully and if you touch his idol (TULIP), he’ll snap. However, I was surprised yet not stunned, he did not take Sam’s open debate challenge and instead attempted to poison the well as he mocked Sam. After reading Sam’s response here, I see James White is in fact terrified of debating Sam on particular redemption, the big three and whether or not ISIS is carrying out stage three tactics implemented by allah and his false messenger Muhammad. James White is in fact a bully, and those of you who don’t see it, it is simply because “love covers a multitude of sins,” and your continued support for such behavior is proof of this text. Our allegiance should be to the triune God and His Word first.

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    • “Stage three tactics” ?? I guess I didn’t get the memo on that one.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Yeah, what does that mean anyway?

      Liked by 1 person

  9. I fully understand why many Christians are hesitant about the hardest point of the 5 points of Calvinism to accept, (the L in T.U.L.I.P), Particular or Definite or Limited Atonement. 2 Peter 2:1 is difficult; as is, IMO, 1 Timothy 4:10. (But they are not impossible to explain in light of all the other evidence.)

    But, when the entire argument is understood and the relationship between all the other points are explained and fleshed out, it makes sense, especially when seeing how often the Scriptures talk about Christ dying for the church, His bride (Ephesians 5), His people, etc. and that Revelation 5:9 speaks of people redeemed out from (ek) all nations and tribes and languages.

    It is an in house debate; and I don’t say those that disagree are not Christians.

    But I have clearly heard Dr. White say many times when some extreme Reformed person tries to assign William Lane Craig or other Christians to the flames, Dr. White is very clear that that is wrong. He calls their theology “sub-Biblical” and wrong; and he questions whether Mike Licona really believes in inerrancy, but he has never said they are not Christians.

    I have never gone as far as saying you are not a Christian, Sam, though Paul Williams and other Muslims have tried to goad me in that direction.

    But, what I do say is that you need to sincerely and deeply repent of your behavior and anger, etc.

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    • Brother Ken,

      Here is another case of what people think of your idol. Like I said Ken. Time for you to put down the incense and repent of your man worship.

      Mame Jigy No body cares what James White says Sam. We know you are far too logical than him and above all we can see how the Lord is using you and helping you to obey the great commandment of our Lord and God Jesus christ (while James sit on his chair and talk about brothers the whole day)! Don’t miss the trick of the devil Sam. We will pray for you.

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  10. when you add snarky comments and bombast like “your idol” and “put down the incense” and your other ad hominem stuff all the time, you discredit your self even more.

    “. . . your idol. Like I said Ken. Time for you to put down the incense and repent of your man worship.”

    sincerely thinking he has made the better argument and acts better, does not mean I treat him like an “idol”, etc.

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  11. Mame Jigy No body cares what James White says Sam.

    ironic, because no Muslim will agree to debate you anymore, and that seems to be what is making you so angry, as they will debate with Dr. White, because at least he is fair.

    And not many (Muslims ) and maybe a lot of Christians don’t read your articles anymore ( I won’t say no one) read your material anymore, because of all the anger and hate you spew out.

    Your anger and sinful behavior is discrediting.

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  12. Mame Jigy No body cares what James White says Sam.

    Except Sam himself as he listens to the DL constantly and Dr. White’s debates and makes long comments challenging him to debate, etc.

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    • And this coming from the guy who keeps reading my posts here! Keep digging yourself deeper into the hole. Your appeal to what Muslims think of me only shows how truly pathetic you happen to be seeing that we all know what the real reason why they don’t debate me. What makes this sad is that you can’t see why they keep debating you… since you are a joke and are incapable of providing a meaningful rebuttal to their arguments which is why they love to entertain you since you have become a useful idiot who serves their purposes.

      And you sure nobody reads my stuff? If so do you want us to compare stats to see how many people visit the Answering Islam site versus how many visit your agape blog? in fact, are you willing to shut down your blog if we get more visitors in a day than you do for the whole month?

      This again shows how pathetic you are since it seems that it’s all about numbers for you, as opposed to it being about the glory of Christ. I don’t blame you, this is a result of your man worship which you really need to repent of since you suffer from the very deadly disease of whiticitis. Thank goodness there is cur for your kind. All you need to do is get off the internet for a year and stop watching James White. Once you do then you will be able to see reality clearly once again, as well as start your journey of becoming a man of integrity and consistency.

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    • Your anger gives them an excuse to give in order to not debate you. If you repented of all the anger and stopped the snarkiness and bombast, etc. then if they refuse, the reason would be clear (that they would not be able to refute your arguments) – but the sad part is this – by your anger and name calling and bombast and snarkiness and ad hominem, you gave and keep giving them ammunition and excuses to use against you. That is very sad and unfortunate.

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  13. I never wrote “nobody”. In fact, I went out of my way to say, “I won’t say nobody”.

    But I do think not as many Muslims read your material anymore.

    As for the fact that you have a much bigger number of visitors than I do – yes, you do; I have no problem admitting that; I am a nobody. You have put out lots of material over the years; and most of it; when it is not laced with your snarkiness, bombast, ad hominem, or sinful anger or name-calling, is very good.

    Get that? I said, “most of it . . . is very good” (when it is using Scripture, history, texts, Qur’an, Hadith, references, logical and reasonable argumentation, etc.)

    But your sinful anger has made you diminished in the area of apologetics.

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    • You really are trying so hard to defend your idol by vilifying me. And for that you are to be commended seeing the lengths you are willing to go in honor of your master. Now if you only showed that same passion for your faith. Like I said, take a year off from the web and seek a cure for your whiticis, since you will become a better man if you do. Trust me I know.

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    • Sam,
      I looked at your facebook page just now; and I appreciate the link to Rob Bowman’s article on Hank Hanegraaf and Eastern Orthodoxy (Bowman is always good to read) and also your article on Calvin and particular redemption. I can appreciate you when you write good material that is reasonable and has documentation and level-headed arguments.

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    • Sam,

      You posted a few comments from others that support/ed you. Do you believe that they were “defending their idol (you) by vilifying Dr White”?

      I’m interested to know, if you abandoned limited atonement, do you still hold to the other 4 reformed doctrines or have you abandoned the reformed position entirely?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Here you go fan boy. Here is Leighton Flower’s response to James White’s “response” to Dr. David L. Allen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFYqJWpcZEQ

      It is short and to the point and I therefore highly encourage you to listen to it. Pay careful attention to what he says about why scholars like Allen and Craig won’t waste their time with White and how the latter shows more love to Muslims than he does to his Christian brothers and sisters. This only goes to show that I am not some crazed nut who has it out for White.

      So I am not the only who sees what kind of arrogant jerk your idol is. Now let’s see if you will do the Christ like thing and call out your master for being a repulse jerk towards his brothers, thereby causing many people to turn and stumble. Like I said, time for you to put down the incense.

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    • Did Dr. Allen ever apologize to Dr. White for calling him a “hyper-Calvinist” ?

      The tensions started back then, a few years, when Dr. Allen started the tension with that false accusation.

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    • Dr. White was still very mild compared to the way you treat people when they disagree with you. Your anger and bombast and snarkiness and extra barbs like “fanboy” and name-calling are way way worse and you have been witness to Muslims and you have dragged Christ’s name into the mud. Repent.

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    • Sam,
      you have been a bad and negative witness to Muslims and dragged Christ’s name into the mud.

      Like

  14. “If the immortal dies… who is going to keep the universal going?”- Bilal Williams

    I honestly can’t believe you said this! I think you are going backwards.

    Like

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