Did you know? Criminal law in the Middle East today was shaped by the Ottoman Criminal Code of 1858, which was issued as part of the failing Ottoman Empire’s efforts to imitate its European rivals. The Code was little more than a translation of the French Criminal Code of 1832, copying word for word its lax punishment for honor crimes.
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Categories: Islam, Western Tradition
Blogging Theology 
A lax penalty for something already committed is the not the cause of the honor killings. The honor killings came first, so the penalty cannot be the cause.
What is the root cause of honor killings?
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Sin.
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Why do people sin?
What is sin? (what is the definition of sin in Islam?)
Why do so many Muslims do honor killings in history? (I am not saying other cultures don’t, but why so common among Muslims?)
This Muslim man cut his wife’s head off. the irony is that they both had started a TV station in order to combat the negative views of Islam and Muslims in the news media.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brutal-irony-in-new-york-womans-beheading/
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Ken Temple
You said;
Why do so many Muslims do honor killings in history? (I am not saying other cultures don’t, but why so common among Muslims?)
I say;
Why are so many Church fathers worse sex offenders? and Pastors like Jimmy Swaggart, Eddie Lee Long etc. worse sex offenders? Why are so many Christians committing sins? Strip clubs everywhere in Christian dominated countries. Why did the evangelical Christians voted for Donald Trump who grabs women private parts? Why will more than 80% of evangelical Christians voted for Donald Trump who treats women with disrespect?
The answer will be that, a Christian’s choice or a Muslim’s choice must not be necessarily Christian of Islam. It is just a choice, no matter how more it is.
I can bring so many news and videos where Christians are committing crimes in the name of Christianity. You will say they are not Christians. Why that double standards? Dr. James White is against the double standards you always show to Muslims.
Thanks.
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Instead of “church fathers”, it would better to say “some Roman Catholic priests”, because it sounds like you are talking about the “Early Church Fathers”, and that is not true; they were not sex offenders, etc.
I am not making a double standard, there is a difference between “crimes of passion” and “honor killings” as to their motivations. Both are from sin and wickedness and pride and vengeance, spite, hatred, rancor in the heart, but “honor killings” in the east has an additional thing with it (seeking to pay back from broken “honor” and “stained reputation on the family, against the offended self”, etc. and also there are examples of this in Hadith and Sira and Muhammad the prophet of Islam, ordered some of these honor killings.
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Also, I wasn’t talking about sexual sins and crimes, so most of your response is irrelevant to the post. The subject is the cause of honor killings. And as pointed out by Verdant Servant, “crimes of passion” are also in the west; yes. But what is the difference that eastern and especially Muslim cultures have many people, especially men, who take the law into their own hands and kill people (wives, daughters) who have stained their honor? (without even a trial, as many times they are just accused or suspected, but not proven of the dis-honor.)
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There are plenty of honour killings in Western countries. They’re just called crimes of passion. In fact, many Christian nations throughout history had laws that would have mitigating circumstances for crimes committed against adulterous spouses, etc. Why the double standards, Ken?
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I agree that people do that also in western cultures, but the difference is that in the Hadith and Sira, there are examples of “honor killings” done by Muhammad and his followers to take revenge for those that insulted him or did some other crime.
We have an explanation because the root is the sinful nature of wickedness on the inside in the heart (Mark 7:20-23; Genesis 6:5), but Islam does not officially believe in the sinful nature, inherited from Adam (although there is actually some evidence from the Islamic texts that indicate some kind of inherited sinful nature), and inherent in all human beings from birth. Islam seems to teach and emphasize that it is the environment, upbringing, circumstances, bad parents, poverty, oppression, etc. are the problem, not the sinful human heart.
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“Why do people sin?
What is sin?”
before your god CREATED the world, he knew he would put an easy to REACH tree in the garden.
why didn’t he put a sign around the tree reading as “god’s death sentence” ?
creation caused your god to become a man. i damn your god
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Islamic texts that seem to also teach some kind of “original sin” that spread to all man-kind.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/does-islam-really-teach-that-there-is-no-original-inherited-sin-that-spread-to-all-mankind/
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You cannot “damn” anyone; only God can condemn someone to hell, which is what that word means. “May God condemn that soul to hell”. You have no power to do that. You are cursing something good. He loves sinners; you are a sinner; therefore repent.
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“You cannot “damn” anyone; only God can condemn someone to hell, which is what that word means. “May God condemn that soul to hell”. You have no power to do that. You are cursing something good. He loves sinners; you are a sinner; therefore repent.”
if god could let satan overtake him and pin him to a cross, then who is to say that i can’t damn your god? since satan gives death to christians every day, maybe one should team up with satan to over throw your god?
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you are nutty.
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Some Muslim men in the west have killed their daughters just because they didn’t dress right, or have become more western in their thinking, etc.
That is also an “honor killing” – much worse vengeance for something that is not adultery.
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The other day I came across this French blog which lists some of the violence and crimes committed by non-Muslims, in the purpose to counter all the hate-mongering Muslim-obsessives whose only focus is crime committed by people of Muslim background.
Feast your eyes, Ken. They have an entire section for honour killings:
https://www.fdebranche.com
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I cannot read French; and still don’t get an answer to my questions.
Asking questions about real news events that have happened in history in recent years is not “hate-mongering”.
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Can Ken Temple Be Blocked from this Website? His Comments Are More Hateful than his EVIL RELIGION.
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I’m afraid not. Though I sympathise.
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Reporting on a real news story and news trends is not hateful.
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Avi,
you are cry-baby that cannot deal with arguments.
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I’ve no idea what happened to Ken!
It seems he was taking courses at David or Sam when he was absent from the blog.
Or he just reveals his true identity.
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Not at all; I don’t agree with Sam’s sinful anger and pugnacious spirit; and his emphasis on winning a debate rather than graciously explaining the gospel. And you have seen me here confront him head on.
But William’s post brought the subject up (honor killings) and has never explained the cause of the honor killings. and does not deal with the cause of them. penalties (light or strict) are not the causes of something that happens before.
David Wood is right a lot. I don’t agree with everything or with his emphasis all the time, but many times he as good material.
You need to do better – provide better arguments than just reactions of emotional “ban him!”, “he is hateful”; “Islamophobia” type reactions.
Whoever uses that (Islamophobia) is no better than the homosexuals and liberal western media who use “homophobia” as a method of shutting down conversation.
I don’t think anyone can deal with this as no one has any good answers so far.
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“David Wood is right a lot.”
That’s not true! His “good” material is presented based on on his own understanding which is psycho !
I’ve showd you what a liar he is with his friend Nabeel!
” You need to do better – provide better arguments”
I’m not the right person whom you should give this advice to, and you know that very well.
You should direct this advice for David, Nabeel, Sam, or even James.
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David Wood makes a lot of good points here.
By putting this up; I am not saying that ISIS is the one genuine expression of Islam, etc. And I saw that the police-woman who was blown up was a Muslim. I understand that most Muslims don’t take the law into their own hands, even if a verse in the Qur’an tempts them to. I realize most Muslims realize that one cannot do violence without proper state authority, etc. (legitimate Caliph, or now, without a Caliph, submission to the governments in power at this present time – most Muslims live in peace and obedience to their respective governments, even if they are not 100 % Islamic.)
But the issues of blaming the victims, Copts or anyone who questions or reports on Islamic based violence, etc. Even if Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, ISIS, government of Iran’s Shiite version, Taliban, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other groups – even if they are not totally right; that is still A LOT of Muslims who are acting upon specific verses from the Qur’an and Hadith and Sira and they quote the verses to back up their beliefs.
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Give me just one hadith or verse that tells us to kill christians in their churches. I challange you and I challange your new teacher, David.
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you have added “in their churches”, but to the terrorist, that does not matter; it just happened to be an easy target with lots of people gathering in one place.
Surah 9:29 just says “fight the people of the book . . . ”
and those other verses about the people of the book being the worst of all creatures (Surah 98:6) – they use those verses for justification.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ
Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
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You have failed. I’ll give you another chance before I refute David’s material.
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All those terrorists needed was Surah 9:29 and 98:6 and those Jihadists to motivate them. They thought there were doing Allah’s will. It does not matter that it was in a church.
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Ken: Surah 9:29 just says “fight the people of the book . . . ”
Which translation is that?
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Ken, you have failed again.
These incidents have nothing to do with Islam. Islam forbids that with no doubt.
he Prophet (ﷺ) said, “Whoever killed a Mu’ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling).
Also, Islam forbids vigilante.
Verses of wars’ contexts have nothing to do with these acts, and you know that very well, but because you’re a deceptive man as your teacher, David, you try manipulatively to apply these verses upon that incident to justify these acts.
The first verse is about Jizyah which you should have no problem with if you’re a sincere a christian, but because you’re a hypocrite as most christians are, you complain while your bible itself has no problem with it.
The second verse has nothing to do with that incident whatsoever, and you have no point there unless that you blame Jesus when he described jews as sons of satan or brood of vipers opening the door for christians to justify killing them for more than 1700 years.
Finally, let’s assume that what you try to say were true which is NOT, Who gave you the authority to criticise us while your records are bloody per excellence?! Your country has been established on the blood & skulls of indigenous people. Your economy is based on imperialism and launching unjustly wars with christians’ blessing.
This news is almost 2 weeks ago, have you heard about it ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-coalition-air-strikes-isis-russia-kill-more-civilians-march-middle-east-iraq-syria-network-for-a7663881.html
You’re the last people on face of this earth who have this right. Remember that always!
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This news story on CBS “60 Minutes in 2014 confirms a lot of what David Wood said.
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Right now, I’m just saying that you’ve revealed your true identity. It doesn’t surprise me, FYI.
I said it before:
Snakes can chnage their skins, but they can’t change what they really are.
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that is not an argument; it is just ad hominem (attacking the person). You do yourself nor your religion any credibility by avoiding the problems.
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How did I attack you!?
Then what do you think it’s a “problem” in my religion based on these vides, for God sake?
David and chrisian channel? Ghee!
Again, you’re not in your church! Each lie you put here will be examined, and it will be exposed as we’ve exposed your ” sincere” man, Nabeel.
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saying “your true identity is revealed” and implying I am a “snake” is an ad hominem argument.
In order for your argument to be a rational one; you must quote David Wood and / or the CBC News story “60 Minutes” and give evidence to the contrary.
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you have to quote from the video’s evidences, not just dismiss them, just because one is from David Wood. Deal with his content and arguments instead of just calling him an “Islamophobe” and “hate-monger”
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“saying “your true identity is revealed” and implying I am a “snake” is an ad hominem argument.”
Man! Jesus the one who commanded you to be snakes not me !
“So be as shrewd as snakes and harmless as doves”
However, the game of “we love you ” doesn’t work anymore!
” you must quote David Wood and / or the CBC News story “60 Minutes” and give evidence to the contrary.”
I’m not the one who thinks the clown has an argument to be quoted it in the first place. My time is so precious to waste it with that clown. You’re the one who thinks that he has “good” material.
Write what you think as a good argument and you will see.
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In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
Islam does not give permission to any individual to kill a family or clan member based on his belief that the victim brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community. Only the Islamic Court can carry out the punishments (hudood) set out by the Shariah. (See: Shaami 6/104, Darul Ma’rifa)
If someone’s family member does an act contrary to the teachings of Islam, then it is his responsibility to amicably stop the person from violating the injunctions of the Shariah and to advise him/her.
A person who accuses another of committing adultery and cannot bring four witnesses who clearly saw the act taking place, is guilty of falsely accusing someone of adultery, the punishment for which is being flogged with eighty stripes. (This punishment, too, is to be carried out by the Court).
Allah, the Exalted, says:
Flog those who accuse any of the chaste women (of committing adultery), but fail to backup (their charges) with four eyewitnesses — flog them with eighty lashes, and thereafter do not accept their testimony ever again. Surely, they are the wicked ones. (Quran 24:4)
According to Islam, the punishment for wrongfully killing someone is very severe:
If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever). And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him. (Quran 4:93)
In short, honour killing is not permitted according to Islam. Encyclopaedia Britannica has correctly stated:
“Such “honour killings” are in fact violations of both civil and Islamic law, but perpetrators frequently use religious reasons to defend their actions, thereby giving the crime a veneer of justification.”[i]
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Four witnesses have to see the couple in the act?
or four witnesses give testimony of other things that would give evidence that they had sex?
(like seeing the adulterer enter the other’s house at a certain time, and leave at a certain time; or hearing one of them brag about having sex, etc. or finding a piece of clothing or DNA in the bedroom, etc.?
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By Abu Amina Elias for FaithinAllah.org
Question:
Does Islam let men kill their wives or daughters to protect their family honor?
Answer:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Vigilante killing for any reason is murder and forbidden in Islam, no matter what reason or excuse the murderer might have.
Allah said:
وَلَا تَقْتُلُوا النَّفْسَ الَّتِي حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمْ وَصَّاكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ
Do not kill a soul that Allah has forbidden except by right of justice. This He has instructed you that you may reason.
Surah Al-An’am 6:151
So-called “honor killings” are cases of men who have killed their wives or daughters because they committed adultery or were involved in another scandalous behavior. They murder their family members due to cultural pressure and shame put upon their family name from society. These criminal actions are absolutely forbidden because it is not permissible in Islam for anyone to take the law into their own hands. The Prophet explicitly prohibited Muslims from punishing adultery themselves, for legal punishment requires due process from lawful authorities and adultery specifically necessitates four eye-witnesses before punishment can be applied.
Abu Huraira reported: Sa’d ibn Ubadah said, “O Messenger of Allah, if I find another man with my wife, should I leave him alone until I bring four witnesses?” The Messenger of Allah said yes. Sa’d said, “Never! By the one who sent you with the truth, if that happened to me I would quickly grab the sword!” The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
اسْمَعُوا إِلَى مَا يَقُولُ سَيِّدُكُمْ إِنَّهُ لَغَيُورٌ وَأَنَا أَغْيَرُ مِنْهُ وَاللَّهُ أَغْيَرُ مِنِّي
Listen to what your leader is saying. Verily, he has a sense of honor and I have a greater sense of honor than him and Allah has a greater sense of honor than me.
Source: Sahih Muslim 1498, Grade: Sahih
In this tradition, the Prophet forbade a man from harming his wife even if he caught her being intimate with another man, despite his sense of honor being offended. Allah has a greater sense of honor than anyone, yet He has forbidden the believers from applying legal punishments without authority and due process.
In fact, the issue of honor killings has nothing to do with what is prescribed and taught by Islam, but rather it involves sensitive cultural dynamics that are not unique to Muslims. Jews, Christians, and Hindus have likewise murdered their family members out of a sense of honor.
According to journalist Nicole Pope:
Articles in Western publications often describe honor killings as an Islamic tradition. Summary executions of women carried out in the name of honor are often given a religious cover, but the practice predates the advent of Islam and is found in other cultures. Around the Mediterranean, honor killings are featured in countries like Greece, Spain, and Italy until a few decades ago. They have now largely disappeared but some cases are still reported in South America… Condemning Islam itself for honor killings ignores the fact that these crimes were committed long before the religion came along. The Quran is strict on adultery, but it does not condone vigilante justice.
Source: Pope, N. (2012). Honor killings in the twenty-first century. p. 119,122
Furthermore, domestic and family violence is a universal phenomenon in all cultures and religions. Men in Western cultures murder their wives or girlfriends after they have been caught being intimate with another man. Is this not similar to an honor killing? Rather, the difference is that the media often reports Western domestic violence as individual, random, and aberrant, but domestic violence committed by Muslims is portrayed as regular, religiously-sanctioned, and evidence of a misogynistic culture. Therefore, the reality of the situation is obscured in order to promote a self-serving narrative of the “civilized” West saving Muslim women from a “backwards” East. Nevertheless, it is the duty of Muslim scholars, leaders, and laypeople to do what they can to end the phenomena of honor killings.
Some anti-Muslim writers have claimed Islam justifies killing children and subsequently honor killings in the following report:
Ibn Abbas reported:
وَإِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لَمْ يَكُنْ يَقْتُلُ الصِّبْيَانَ فَلاَ تَقْتُلِ الصِّبْيَانَ إِلاَّ أَنْ تَكُونَ تَعْلَمُ مَا عَلِمَ الْخَضِرُ مِنَ الصَّبِيِّ الَّذِي قَتَلَ
The Messenger of Allah did not kill children, so you should not kill them unless you know what Al-Khidr knew about the child he killed.
Source: Sahih Muslim 1812, Grade: Sahih
They claim it is permissible to kill children because of the story in the Quran in which Al-Khidr killed a child. However, a key point of the story is that Al-Khidr did so only because Allah revealed to him that the boy would become a rebel. Since it is understood that Al-Khidr had knowledge of the unseen which did not belong even to Moses, Ibn Abbas is actually using the story as a proof against killing children.
An-Nawawi comments on this tradition, saying:
مَعْنَاهُ أَنَّ الصِّبْيَانَ لَا يَحِلُّ قَتْلُهُمْ وَلَا يَحِلُّ لَكَ أَنْ تَتَعَلَّقَ بِقِصَّةِ الْخَضِرِ وَقَتْلِهِ صَبِيًّا فَإِنَّ الْخَضِرَ مَا قَتَلَهُ إِلَّا بِأَمْرِ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى لَهُ عَلَى التَّعْيِينِ كَمَا قَالَ فِي آخِرِ الْقِصَّةِ وَمَا فَعَلْتُهُ عَنْ أَمْرِي فَإِنْ كُنْتَ أَنْتَ تَعْلَمُ مِنْ صَبِيٍّ ذَلِكَ فَاقْتُلْهُ وَمَعْلُومٌ أَنَّهُ لَا عِلْمَ لَهُ بِذَلِكَ فَلَا يَجُوزُ لَهُ الْقَتْلُ
The meaning is that it is not lawful to kill children and it is not lawful to use the story of Al-Khidr killing the boy. Indeed, Al-Khidr only killed the boy because Allah commanded him as this was specific to him, just as he said in the end of the story: I did not do it of my own accord (18:82). So if you know about the boy as he did then you may kill him, but it is well-known that no one can know that, so it is not permissible to kill children.
Source: Sharh Sahih Muslim
In conclusion, honor killings have no justification in Islam. They are criminal acts that are committed due to the pressures of culture and other irreligious reasons. Muslims should make every effort to stop this phenomena from continuing.
Success comes from Allah, and Allah knows best.
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Thanks for a more educated and thorough answer, Shahzeb.
They murder their family members due to cultural pressure and shame put upon their family name from society.
What is the root and basis of the “cultural pressure” and “shame” and “society” come from? Had not Islam been their culture and society for some 1400 years ?
Where does “shame” come from?
Why cannot the family wait for the evidence and police work and law courts to do their job?
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Ken: Surah 9:29 just says “fight the people of the book . . . ”
I noticed you have not answered the question so I re-iterate: which translation is that?
Here are 55 English translations of the verse, none of which says “fight the people of the book . . . ”
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/9/29/default.htm
Where did you get that? Did you make it up?
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Pickthall’s translation is pretty close. Same idea anyway.
PICKTHALL
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Surah 9:29
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So you made it up. Very dishonest.
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Ibn Kathir proved that is what it meant, and based on Surah 9:28-30, they attacked the East Roman / Byzantine Empire.
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4— “Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.”
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—”Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.”
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Ken Temple
April 15, 2017 • 10:58 pm
Thanks for a more educated and thorough answer, Shahzeb.
They murder their family members due to cultural pressure and shame put upon their family name from society.
What is the root and basis of the “cultural pressure” and “shame” and “society” come from? Had not Islam been their culture and society for some 1400 years ?
Where does “shame” come from?
Why cannot the family wait for the evidence and police work and law courts to do their job?
I say;
Do you mean to tell me that, people do not kill their family because of pressure and shame before Islam?
The Jews helped the Romans to crucify Jesus because they believed he brought shame to their tradition. There was indeed honor killings in other cultures before Islam, hence your acknowledgement here;
Intellect
April 15, 2017 • 3:03 pm
Ken Temple
You said;
Why do so many Muslims do honor killings in history? (I am not saying other cultures don’t, but why so common among Muslims?)
I say;
Why are so many Church fathers worse sex offenders? and Pastors like Jimmy Swaggart, Eddie Lee Long etc. worse sex offenders? Why are so many Christians committing sins? Strip clubs everywhere in Christian dominated countries. Why did the evangelical Christians voted for Donald Trump who grabs women private parts? Why will more than 80% of evangelical Christians voted for Donald Trump who treats women with disrespect?
————————————–
I know some people called Fathers, Pastors i.e. Eddie Lee Long, Jimmy Swaggart etc. who are Christians are worse sex offenders. You can ask the Churches and Christians to stop calling them Fathers and Pastors, then I will humbly stop using Church Fathers, Pastors etc.
It is not my fault when some Christians called Fathers and Pastors are sinners to render Jesus death on the cross useless.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
April 15, 2017 • 11:03 pm
Four witnesses have to see the couple in the act?
or four witnesses give testimony of other things that would give evidence that they had sex?
(like seeing the adulterer enter the other’s house at a certain time, and leave at a certain time; or hearing one of them brag about having sex, etc. or finding a piece of clothing or DNA in the bedroom, etc.?
I say;
It seems like you are like Jay Smith who swore tot distort Islam at all cost. Don’t you understand “in the act”, “in the act”, “in the act”?
Thanks.
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in eastern part of turkey honor killings praktiised by kurdish people. one my friend from that region told me they have jewisih descent.(remember the lost ship of israel) first I do not agree but when I think about honor killing and the name given to it in turkey I suspect. tero(not terror) killing they call for it. tero and torah are sound very close. I start believing they praktising some kind old testament punishments. I am not sure but like stoning of adulterers and female circumcision they enter to muslim traditions from other religions and cultures.
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Interesting theory..
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In other words a necessarily lax-if not outright impotent Islam has not been persistently unable to assert its supremecy(sic) that is- defeated, by a supposed and implicitly posited exculpatory other derived criminal code
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What??
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