David Wood is effortlessly refuted by unitarian Christian Professor of philosophy

Where did Jesus say “I am God, worship me”? 

Did Jesus imply that he’s God himself?

article by Dale Tuggy

David Wood, a convicted criminal turned polemicist against Islam, suffered a crushing rebuttal of his argument that Jesus implied he was God in an article by Dale Tuggy a Professor of Philosophy in his home state of New York. Click the images to enlarge. See the original article with links here.

Dale Tuggy is Professor of Philosophy at the State University of New York, where he teaches courses in analytic theology, philosophy of religion, religious studies, and the history of philosophy.

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Categories: Bible, Christianity, God

129 replies

  1. let me make logical argument

    baal controls the weather
    yhwh controls the weather
    jesus controls the weather

    but baal dies
    jesus dies
    yhwh doesn’t die

    isn’t jesus having more in common with baal , then yhwh?

    http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3153

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Another simple argument against the divinity of Jesus is that, since Jesus didn’t embody all the qualities of God he is-therefore-not God.

    Liked by 3 people

  3. Premise 5 and 6 contradicts the Quran too, because even though if Jesus and God are different the Quran denies that someone other than God can forgive sins and be worshipped.
    Has the premise “God and Jesus differ” enough evidence? Dale never points out anything.
    Numerical identity never is a priori. He should know this. Every mathematical identity works some times, this led some philosophers like Tarski, Russell, Quine to consider logic only different by grades from experience. Therefore, Tuggy’s 2nd premise is false and the whole silogism is wrong.

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  4. Great arguments by Dr. Tuggy!!!

    Liked by 1 person

  5. When the christian god does miracles, he is still rocked in a boat and NEEDS to BREATH like any other human. Even while calming the storm he is not IN COMPLETE CONTROL of the SITUATION around him, he has Not unlimited power over every storm and flood in existence. point is that yhwh DOES NOT breath and is in control of every atom unlike the false christian god.

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  6. The forgiveness of sins is Markan shirk, but mark thinks that jesus has been AUTHORIZED by the father. Plus Markan jesus never said :”why do such thoughts come into your mind, how can God blaspheme against god”
    Markan jesus didn’t say that.

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  7. 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
    7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
    8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, *said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
    9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?
    10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He *said to the paralytic,
    11 “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.”

    12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

    Mark 2:6-12

    The Father and the Son (Jesus) are two distinct persons, but there is only one God, so the doctrine of the Trinity says that the nature/substance/essence of God is one being, that is shared by three persons.

    Tuggy’s premise # 1 is wrong, that “God=Jesus”; rather the doctrine says “Jesus is God by nature/essence”; and Jesus is not the Father.

    Plus the NT writers give worship to Jesus:
    Matthew 2:1-12
    Matthew 14:33
    Revelation 5:1-14 (especially verses 11-14 where the Lamb with the one seated on His throne is worshiped.)
    and yet,
    Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9 says “don’t do that, don’t worship any thing other than God. Don’t worship angels; worship God alone.”

    Therefore, Jesus is God by nature; but He is not the Father, not is the Son Jesus the same person as the Holy Spirit.

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    • God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins according to Matt.

      Worshiping simply means obedience in those contexts.

      God and Jesus are clearly distinct and separate beings, as per Mark having Jesus say how he (Jesus) was abandoned by God on the cross.

      You have to believe God was slit into two which is ridiculous.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Jesus is not one being, that is shared by three persons.

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    • pathetic. First it is not jesus , but the spirit which is telling him the mind of the Pharisees. Your pagan meat god is BEING INSTRUMENTED. by the spirit who came upon jesus @ his baptism. It is not jesus doing anything, but faith. in gospel of mark faith in yhwh is more important than jesus.

      Why didn’t jesus say ” how can god blaspheme god” considering you believe that jebus was 1 person, 2 natures?

      Why in other place he say, ” how can Satan cast out Satan” but not make similar analogy using 1 person 2 natures?

      yes, the pals of jesus, if they have faith can forgive the sinners, because according to jesus FORGIVING is easy …

      The authority was given to them too.

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    • not even understandable; that is what is pathetic. Your English syntax and spelling is pathetic.

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    • Says the PROUD American.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ken should apologise to heathcliff. Very rude!

      Liked by 1 person

    • ah ha! Your sinful character is revealed by dirty language!

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    • You approved of Mr. Healthcliff’s dirty language, so it is you and him who love sin!!

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    • lol such a religious nutter

      Liked by 1 person

    • not an intellectual argument

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    • So far as I see christians, they have been adopting what jews’ accusations against Jesus, but they have been rejecting Jesus’ explanations to refute those false accusations from jews.
      Who do you follow?!
      The matter of forgiving sins has been answered, Ken. Why don’t you bother to read?
      First, the fact that God can forgive sins without the perfect sacrifice as it happened with that man is destroying your religion as whole.
      Second, Jesus should’ve said I forgive sin because I’m your God, yet and as usual in your bible Jesus instead stated this “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?” What does that mean, for God sake?
      IMO, Jesus was the worst missionary for christian beliefs. He always misses the opportunities to explain what he really is, and what his mission is all about.
      Third, that authority that Jesus was talking about is the same authority that John the baptist had .
      “John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance (((for the forgiveness of sins))) ” Mark 1:4.

      It’s the same authority that Jews were complaining about
      “And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?
      Jesus answered them, “I also will ask you one question, and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things.
      The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?” And they discussed it among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
      But if we say, ‘From man,’ we are afraid of the crowd, for they all hold that (((John was a prophet)))”

      I’m asking you the same question Jesus asked the jews to see.
      The authority of Jesus from where did it come?

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    • of course from heaven. He descended from heaven.
      John 6:38
      ” I have come down from heaven . . . ”

      and your other point – you are missing the fact that the historical occurrence of Mark chapter 2 happened before the cross. But Jesus also started explaining the cross and resurrection in chapter 8, 9, and 10, predicting/prophesying of His arrest, trial, crucifixion, death, and resurrection from the dead.

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    • these predictions are usually considered to be creations of the gospel writers by historians.

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    • some historians who don’t believe in miracles, the supernatural, or that God can use prophets and prophesy the future or that God inspires some humans to write books.

      The same secular historians would (and many already do) discount all the prophet claims of the Qur’an and Hadith and Muhammad’s life also.

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    • That is not the reason they consider the predictions to be invented.

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    • Yes it is the main presupposition and philosophy. Those historians do the same to the Qur’an.

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    • No. You are unfamiliar with the scholarship. Go. Read. Learn.

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    • No; I am quite familiar with all kinds of scholarship and approaches. I have also read several other books based on my interaction with you and some of your recommendations over these past 5 or 6 years. We first started debating I think in August of 2011.

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    • So tell me: what is the usual historical reason given by many New Testament scholars for their scepticism about the alleged predictions? NB it had nothing to do with ‘anti supernatural bias’.

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    • that is the main reason

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    • “The simple and rather devastating fact has been that Gospels researchers and questers of the historical Jesus have failed to produce agreed results. Scholars do not seem to be able to agree on much beyond a few basic facts and generalisations; on specific texts and issues there has been no consensus.” James D. G. Dunn, Jesus Remembered, page 97

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    • Mike Licona has a great section on the “Islamic Catch 22” – either way, it proves Islam false.

      Islamic Catch-22

      Despite the overwhelming historical evidence supporting Jesus’ death by crucifixion, it seems to me that a Muslim might respond that this only demonstrates the truth of the Qur’an, since everyone was tricked into believing that Jesus had died as a result of being crucified just as the Qur’an and GB state. However, the Muslim view that God rescued Jesus from death comes at a high price that Muslims cannot pay. In his 1961 novel Catch-22, Joseph Heller described situations where no choice exists for achieving a desired outcome. This type of situation came to be referred to by the book’s title, a “Catch-22.” Given theQur’an‘s view of Jesus’ fate, Muslims are in what we may refer to as an “Islamic Catch-22.”

      We must start with the fact that Jesus predicted his imminent and violent death. There are at least six strong reasons in support. First, the accounts of the predictions are early, being found in abundance in Mark’s Gospel, which most scholars believe was written somewhere between twenty-five to forty-five years after Jesus’ death. There is also a hint of an Aramaic original in the passion prediction of Mark 9:31 where a vorlage presents a play on words: the Son of Man is to be handed over to the hands of men.[26]

      Second, the passion and resurrection predictions are multiply attested, as the following tables show.[27]

      Jesus Predicting His Death and Resurrection: Mark, M, John, Q (possibly)

      Mark

      Related to Peter’s rebuke: Mark 8:31; Matt. 16:21; Luke 9:22
      After Jesus’ Transfiguration: Mark 9:9; Matt. 17:9
      Passing through Galilee: Mark 9:30-31; Matt. 17:22-23
      Going up to Jerusalem: Mark 10:33-34; Matt. 20:18-19
      Last Supper: Mark 14:18-28; Matt. 26:21-32; Luke 22:15-20
      M

      Sign of Jonah: Matt. 12:38-40 (cf. Luke 11:29-30); 16:2-4 (cf. Luke 12:54-56)[28]
      John

      Related to Destruction of Temple: John 2:18-22 (cf. Mark 14:58; 15:29; Matt. 26:61-62)
      Jesus’ Predicting His Death Only: Mark, L, John

      Mark

      Ransom for Many: Mark 10:45
      Vineyard and Wicked Tenants: Mark 12:1-12; Matt. 21:33-46; Luke 20:9-19
      Garden: Mark 14:32-40; Matt. 26:36-46; Luke 22:39-46
      L

      Prophet Cannot Die Outside of Jerusalem: Luke 13:32-33
      John

      Jesus Lifted Up: John 3:13-14; 8:28; 12:32-34
      Even more importantly, the passion predictions appear in multiple literary forms, being found in logia involving parable (Mark 12:1-12) and simple didactic.[29]

      Third, the passion and resurrection predictions fulfill the criterion of embarrassment. There is, in fact, a double embarrassment. In his garden prayer, Jesus “wants out” if possible (Mark 14:32-40; Matt. 26:36-46; Luke 22:39-46) and there is the embarrassing portrayal of the disciples who do not understand Jesus’ passion predictions or simply did not believe him (Mark 8:31-33; 9:31-32; 14:27-31; Luke 24:11, 21).[30] Of special interest is that in the midst of these predictions the first leader of the church is twice portrayed in a negative light.[31] Fourth, with only a few exceptions, the passion and resurrection predictions lack signs of possible theologizing by the early church.[32] For example, there is no reflection on the significance of Jesus’ death, such as its atoning value.[33] Fifth, Jesus’ passion and resurrection predictions are often located within Jesus’ reference to himself as the “Son of Man.”[34] Given the criterion of dissimilarity, the “Son of Man” appears to have been an authentic self-designation by Jesus.[35] The “Son of Man” logia appear in every Gospel layer and in multiple literary forms.[36]However, the later church did not refer to Jesus as the “Son of Man.”

      Sixth, the passion predictions fulfill the criterion of plausibility.[37] His prediction comes as no surprise within Jesus’ Jewish context, given the fact that he had made enemies of prominent Jewish leaders, considered himself a prophet and would naturally share the fate of a prophet, given the Jewish traditions describing martyrdom and vindication by God (2 Macc. 7), and that John the Baptist had been recently executed for similar activities.[38]

      Combined, these six arguments strongly suggest that Jesus predicted his violent and imminent death and subsequent resurrection. This creates a catch-22 for Muslims. If Jesus actually predicted his violent and imminent death and God rescued him from such a death, he is a false prophet, since his predictions failed to come true. But this would contradict the Qur’an, which refers to Jesus as a true prophet (2:87, 136, 253; 3:45; 4:171; 5:75; 57:27; 61:6). The other option is that Jesus died a violent and imminent death as he had predicted. But this, too, would contradict the Qur’an, which asserts that he was rescued from death in the first century (4:157-58). Either way, the Qur’an is wrong.

      From here:
      http://www.risenjesus.com/the-death-of-jesus-the-defeat-of-islam

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    • Most scholars who do not share Licona religious bias and presuppositions judge that did not predict his death with such detail as the gospels after portray. Read any standard commentary for details,

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    • The evidence is so overwhelming on our side of things, that you have to “shoot your brains” in order to hold onto your “flat earth” kind of ideas, like denying history, and Licona here, demolished your view.

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    • If Jesus’ authority came from heaven, then he is like John the Baptist ((( a prophet))). That’s it.
      If Jesus were God himself, he would’ve not needed to remind jews about the authority of John unless you think that Jesus was trying to make a point that John was God.
      Both were prophets of Allah, and that’s why jews whom you obsessed with are blamed for rejecting them.
      But for christians, jews have every right to reject them since christians themselves adopt jews’ view against Jesus! This is the very definition of irony!

      ” you are missing the fact that the historical occurrence of Mark chapter 2 happened before the cross”
      I’m telling you since that very incident had happned before the alleged crucifixion did, it destroys the perfect sacrifice concept that christians keep preaching. I didn’t miss rather I affirm.

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    • Not an argument. Fundamentalism does not work its magic here Ken. You need to think critically. Try it and see.

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    • Jesus teaches the truth about His purpose in coming -to be the substitutionary ransom sacrifice for sins, in Mark 10:45. The man in Mark 2 was forgiven by Jesus, but the historical event was before the cross. In Christian theology, sincerely faith in Jesus Christ and the promise of the Messiah (as in Abraham in Genesis 15:6 – And Abraham believed in the LORD (Yahweh) (and His promise to send one from his own body (a future son) (see verses 1-5 context and Genesis 12:1-3 for more context) and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
      Quoted in Romans 4; Galatians 3, and James 2 – showing that all believers before the cross were putting their faith in Jesus Messiah and His atonement. Jesus said this in John 8:56-58 – Abraham rejoiced to see My day” – believed in Jesus the Messiah and His atonement before.

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    • You left out the Farsi Ken

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    • تشکر می کنم که فکر می کنی که فارسی مهم است
      = “thank you for thinking that Farsi is important”
      see the تشکر ? that comes from Arabic, شکراً = thank you

      and “think” فکر is also an Arabic word.

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    • Lol Such a proud proud man. Now what did Jesus say about that??

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    • You are the one who comes across as proud as always talking about your academic knowledge and scholarship, etc. (and putting down all believing scholarship as “backwards fundamentalism”) and so when someone else comes along and has some knowledge that you don’t, you don’t know what to do with it; you call that person proud. C. S. Lewis has an excellent chapter on pride in Mere Christianity that is based on Christian theology and the Bible. You need to read that and apply that to your heart; since Islam does not emphasize the need to fight the internal sins of the heart. (It does some, but it is not the main emphasis; and the reason why Sufism developed later because they were hungering for more than dry rituals and legalistic external law. (the main emphasis in Islam in Shariah law.)

      “Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord . . . ” Proverbs 16:6

      Pride and arrogance – تکبر and غرور are also Arabic root words.

      Jesus rebukes your pride of intellectual scholarship and how many liberal books you read in order to criticize Him, the great prophet and eternal Son of God, and you use kufur material to go against the Bible, which the Qur’an says is true and light and guidance and inspired and not changed in it’s text. Surah 5:47; 68; 10:94; 2:136; 29:46

      Jesus rebukes your pride in your heart – Mark 7:20-23
      20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

      23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

      The Farsi word for “Foolishness” جهالت (foolish ignorance) is also an Arabic word in root.

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    • ???
      That man was forgiven before Mark 10:45, and here is your problem

      Christians say it’s impossible to be forgiven without the perfect sacrifice, yet Jesus said it’s easier to say for the sinner that your sins are forgiven.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ken: “Therefore, Jesus is God by nature; but He is not the Father, not is the Son Jesus the same person as the Holy Spirit.”

      Yep thanks Ken! understand now .. All 3 divine distinct persons share the same essence of divinity that makes each person a distinct divine god.. 3 personal gods that all share the same essence of divinity or nature if god😉

      Liked by 2 people

    • Correct! But that is not the monotheism of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

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    • No; there is only one God, so the doctrine is “One God in substance, three in person”.

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    • Who is the personal identity who says I am YHWH, there is no God beside me?

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    • “No; there is only one God, so the doctrine is “One God in substance, three in person”.”

      Throwing the human substance under the bus. Actually it should be “One God in two substances, three in person”.

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    • “No; there is only one God, so the doctrine is “One God in substance, three in person”.

      “One God in substance, three in person”.

      is each person having the FULL substance or part of it?

      Liked by 1 person

  8. I already answered that (about Matthew 27:46) in a previous post; that there was no split in the Trinity. You cannot tell Christians what the doctrine is; we tell you what the doctrine is.

    Like the author of the Qur’an did not know what the doctrine is; which proves the living God did not inspire the Qur’an.

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    • I am telling you what that gospels say: God abandoned Jesus, therefore we evidently have two district and separate beings: God on the one hand and Jesus on the other. If you insist against the facts that Jesus was God then it forces you with iron logic that God split into two.

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  9. About Matthew 27:46 / Mark 15:34
    “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

    Two things:
    1. He was quoting Psalm 22:1, which would alert the Jews to refer to it and read the rest of it, and see Psalm 22:8 and 22:14-19 and the fulfillment of several other things in those verses. (see also Matthew 27:43, quoting Ps. 22:8 and Luke 23:34 b is quoting Psalm 22:18 (and John 19:24); and Psalm 22:16 is a description of the crucifixion (they pierced my hands and feet) [ I am aware of the textual variant in Hebrew, but the LXX Greek is clear. ]

    2. He is expressing the feelings of being forsaken as He bore the wrath of God against sin. (Galatians 3:10-13; Isaiah 53:6; Isaiah 53:10) But He was not abandoned, even though it seemed like it, because He was bearing the penalty and wrath of God against sin; He was bearing God the Father’s justice against sin. verses 19 to the end of Psalm 22 shows that God vindicated the Son Jesus; and there is no abandonment or “split” in the Trinity. Feelings of abandonment is not actual abandonment; and bearing the wrath of God was very heavy and serious and He really experienced and felt that.

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    • So God abandoned Jesus right?

      Yes or no

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    • The Father poured out His wrath on the Son Jesus and Jesus the Son came voluntarily to take on the penalty and guilt of sin (John 10:18); the feelings of abandonment are there, but the Father did not abandon Jesus, but He felt like it, since He was bearing the weight of sin and guilt and the punishment for sin of the whole world of all of humanity; yet was sinless.

      Isaiah 53:6 – “the LORD caused the iniquity (sin, guilty, injustice) of us all to fall on Him.”

      Galatians 3:13 – He became a curse for us on the cross.

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    • Oh so Jesus was mistaken when he said he was abandoned by God. He should have known better.

      Liked by 1 person

    • this guy doesn’t know that he has made his man gods “sacrifice” absolutely like a stage play. If I have an eye and lose it , I can say “my eye, my eye, why have you forsaken me” this nut job is saying that his pagan god was PUNISHING himself even with the EYE attached. he was just playing a virtual reality game and felt something which was not REAL. but this goes against orthodoxy. If sinners in hell will , in reality, get divine wrath poured on them , then they get it much worse than jezoz. if jezoz was eating “Popeye. Spinach” while getting punished, then the JUSTICE of yhwh cannot be APPEASED.

      so what Ken seem to be saying is that yhwh is punishing himself in weird game just for the weekend and then saving himself from eternal damnation by not ACTUALLY experiencing what divine wrath really is.

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    • go back and learn English better so you can communicate better.

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    • Btw slime ball of jebus, list the 40 percent of Arabic in pharsee . Sci.lang are having a laugh at your expense. You will get a link soon.

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  10. The facts of history force you with iron logic that prove the true and living God, the creator of the universe, did not inspire the Qur’an, since the author of the Qur’an did not even get basic history right, or understand the doctrine of the Trinity, even after it was established for centuries; and told husbands they could beat their wives and that they are like fertile land that can just plow them up and seed them up whenever and however they like.

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  11. lol – you attack the Bible and Christian theology all the time; it is your main issue.

    yet, after you deleted 2 whole blogs; then started this one up again, you wrote a blog article that Tim Winter advised you to not make attacking Christianity your main thing, yet you went back to it and deleted that article.
    Why?

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  12. seems like you have no answer for those questions.

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  13. No; you never answered why you deleted that article (Tim Winter’s advice) and changed back to your old emphasis.

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  14. At least I never saw it. Maybe you did. Where is it?

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Yes, I will confess I don’t look here all the time and sometimes many days or weeks go by cause I am busy working, etc. when I don’t look here or read here.

    so, it is possible I missed those things.

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  16. Paul Williams never touched my argument regarding numerical identity. He must know he doesn’t know anything about logic.

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  17. “these predictions are usually considered to be creations of the gospel writers by historians.”

    “Truly I say to you, in the renewed world, when the Son of Man is sitting on the throne of his glory, you (disciples) also will be seated on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28; cf. Luke 22:30)”

    Dr Ehrman,

    when it says “truly i say to you…”

    is it like a guarantee for judas that he would be sitting on the throne? is jesus saying that judas like peter will be rewarded? does this imply jesus is making false prophecy ?

    if the author knew that jesus knew that judas would not be rewarded , he would have said something like
    “those who among you who follow me will….”

    Bart May 16, 2017
    Yes seems to be. This is why the saying almost certainly is something the historical Jesus said (not something put on his lips by later Christians) before anyone knew that Judas would be a betrayer.

    ///

    paul, it seems like you are right about this. even NT wright believes those predictions were put into jesus’ mouth by later christians

    Liked by 1 person

  18. you quoted mike licona.

    quote :

    But here is the evidence AGAINST the authenticity of these “prophecies” which in my opinion, blows the above evidence in favor of their authenticity out of the water:

    All four of the Gospels were written AFTER the alleged event in question!!!

    Imagine someone writing a book in 1981 in which they allegedly quote someone in June of 1941 predicting that the Japanese will bomb Pearl Harbor in a sneak attack on Sunday morning, December 7th of that year. Now, which is more probable:
    That someone really did prophesy the Japanese sneak attack six months prior to the event, or, the author of the book INVENTED the prophesy forty years after the event had already happened???

    You got it, folks! The overwhelming probability is that the author of the book invented the story that someone prophesied six months in advance the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Why? Answer: In our everyday, collective human experience, predictions of the future are rarely accurate. However, people cheat, lie, and make up tall tales all the time!

    I believe that the only reason that conservative Christians believe that it is much more probable that the prophecies by Jesus regarding his approaching death and resurrection found in the four Gospels are authentic and not invented by the anonymous authors writing these stories years later is because conservative Christians so desperately want these “prophecies” to be true. In any other situation, not involving their Faith, I would bet they would never believe any prediction written in a book published years after the event predicted had already taken place.

    //////////

    why does mark QUOTE the predictions, but NEVER has MENTION of post resurrected jesus APPEARING to the disciples?

    how come he did a times 3 on the PREDICTIONS , but not a times 6 on the visions ?

    and why DID he have the women SEEK SAFETY in flight when they were filled with “good news” ?

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    • 1. jesus gets caught OFF guard
      2. later fristians are EMBARRASSED
      3. they create fiction about how jesus ALREADY knew

      mark was written 40 years AFTER jesus’ death

      enough time to INVENT LIES about jesus.

      ken, how come paul doesn’t MENTION anything about jesus PREDICTING his death in the early creed?

      “1 Cor 7 was written in 50-60AD, so yeah, he was expecting bad stuff to happen. And bad stuff did happen, but not the end of the world.”

      response :
      Paul was expecting good stuff, not bad stuff. He didn’t know anything about the Jewish Revolt and the destruction of Jerusalem. His description in 1 Thessalonians 4 is nothing but joyous. Paul expected no tribulations and didn’t expect any. That didn’t happen until Mark, when it became necessary to explain the destruction of the Temple.

      ////////////////////////

      ken what kind of holy spirit was filling jesus and paul?

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  19. Except Mark was written around 45 AD-50 AD, and it is inspired, “God-breathed”. (2 Timothy 3:16)
    So the prophesies are true and tell us about the events in 26-30 AD, during Jesus’ ministry.

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    • Mark was written much much later according to scholars and never claims to be revelation from God. Fail.

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    • nope; God-breathed and true and written earlier, about 45-50 AD.

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    • It does not claim to be God’s revelation. FAIL.

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    • Mark 1:1 “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God”
      and verse 2, “as it is written in the prophet . . . (and then quotes from both Malachi and Isaiah 40) – the word “as”
      ( ὡς hōs ) connects to verse 1 to say that the prophetic writings confirm that the gospel according to Mark is inspired and God-breathed Scripture.

      At least the Qur’an 600 years later recognizes that the “gospel” (Injeel = انجیل ) is inspired.

      Surah 5:47; 68; 10:94; 2:136; 29:46

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    • Very poor argument. Will only persuade convinced fundamentalists. No one else.

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    • “However what very few people realize is that this comparatively late date for Mark’s gospel is suggested almost entirely by the foundational assumption that Jesus could not have prophesied the future.”

      As a Muslim who believes in the supernatural, I am surprised that you willingly accept the liberal hermeneutic just to pursue your dawah.

      Apart from the anti supernatural bias you have appealed to in the majority of scholars argument, do you have any genuine reason for a later date?

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  20. Still, Licona did an excellent job of proving Islam is false and the 4 gospels are true, which together and with the other 27 books of the NT, are the true Injeel. انجیل حقیقی

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  21. Does worship of Jesus demonstrate he is God?

    “Let all the angels of God worship him.”

    Trinitarian Claim

    A very common claim by Trinitarians is to claim “Jesus is God” because we find both men and angels worshiping Jesus in the Bible.

    Examination of the Claims

    Proskyneo and the English word “Worship.”

    In Greek, there are two words which have been translated as “worship.” Neither one of these Greek words do themselves contain the whole constellation of ideas which are usually associated with the English word “worship.” In many minds, the English word “worship” is something one only does to the one God. This article deals with the Greek word proskyneo and demonstrates why Trinitarian claims concerning this particular Greek word are false.

    This claim is extremely disingenuous because the English word “worship” does by itself imply a special kind of devotion to a divine being and in Christianity, God. However, what Trinitarian apologists often do not disclose is that the English word “worship” is used to translate two different Greek words, proskuneo, and latreuo. The first Greek word means simply to bow down before a higher authority. The second word refers to do divine service such as temple service. Most of the Trinitarian claims concern the word proskyneo and we shall soon see here that this word was used by the ancient Greek speaking people to refer to “worship” of ANY higher authority.

    1. How the Greek word proskyneo is used in the Bible.

    The are many, many examples in the Scriptures that show us how this Greek word is used. The corresponding Hebrew word is shachah. If we translated the word proskyneo as “worship” then Lot worshiped two angels (Genesis 19:1-2), Abaham worshiped the Hittites (Genesis 23:7,12), Isaac blesses Jacob to have all nations on earth worship him (Genesis 27:29), Jacob worshiped Esau (Genesis 33:1-4), Joseph’s brothers worship him (Genesis 27:9-10; 42:3-6; 26-28), Abigail worshiped David’s servants (1 Samuel 25:40-41), Saul worshiped the dead man Samuel (1 Samuel 28:14), the sons of the prophets worshiped Elisha (2 Kings 2:15), David worshiped the Temple (Psalm 5:7) and all the people of Israel worshiped King David (1 Chronicles 29:20). And there are many more examples.

    2. The Magi

    Trinitarians will even sometimes use the example of the Magi to insist that proskyneo worship of Jesus necessarily demonstrates he was God. But this particular claim is absurd. The Magi were not Jews. They were pagan starwatchers who had seen Jesus’ star; they were astrologers. We are told they came to bow down before a human King, not to God. They came to proskyneo worship a human infant not God. The reason they came to proskyneo worship this human being was because he was the King of the Jews. Again we see that the reason they would do proskyneo worship was because they were respecting a higher authority.

    3. Matthew 4:10: You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only

    However, Trinitarians can’t seem to get these facts through their heads or perhaps more rightly, they don’t want to get the facts straight in their minds. And so they ignore the facts and appeal to some of their other mistaken interpretations of the Scriptures. One example of this kind of blunder is Matthew 4:10 where Jesus is being tempted by the devil to accept authority over the whole world if he will only bow down and worship him. Jesus then responds by quoting the Law, “You will worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.” As usual, Trinitarians are so blinded by their own desires they do not see the problems with their own claims.

    First, if the Trinitarian interpretation of this verse had any merit, then Lot, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and David were all sinning when they proskyneo worshiped other identities and indeed David even worshiped the temple. Even further, according to the Trinitarian interpretation, the whole assembly of Israel then sinned when they proskyneo worshiped both YAHWEH and the King.

    Secondly, Trinitarians completely fail to see the time frame when Jesus made this statement. Jesus was made lower than the angels. And in Hebrews 1:6, all the angels were to bow down before Jesus only after God had raised him from the dead, after God gave him all authority in heaven and upon the earth, after God made him Lord, and after God sat him down at his right hand making him superior to the angels just as we read at Hebrews 1:4-5.

    Furthermore, the word “only” in this verse does not qualify the word proskyneo which is translated as “worship.” It only qualifies the word latreuo which is translated as “serve.” Nowhere is Jesus given latreuo worship. And even IF he did now did receive latreuo worship, the Trinitarian would still be still left with the time frame problem just mentioned above.

    In his temptation, Jesus was being tempted to DISOBEY God and rather do the devil’s will. Jesus’ response was that he would rather submit to his God and Father’s authority and serve Him alone.

    4. The Angels Worship Jesus

    Another blind claim is to say that since the angels worshiped Jesus (Hebrews 1:6) then he must be God Himself. However, this complely ignores the context which tells us precisely WHY they are to bow down in subjection to Jesus. Being a man, the writers tells us that Jesus was made lower than the angels (2:7) but now in his resurrection he is crowned with glory and honor (2:7) and in this way has become superior to the angels have inherited a better name than the angels (1:4). In his resurrection God made him “Lord” (Acts 2:36) giving him all authority in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18) when he sat Jesus down at his right hand. In this way, he became superior in position to the angels, his God anointing him to be above the angels (Heb 1:9).

    You have put all things in subjection under his feet. (Heb 2:8).

    Jesus is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, and having angels and authorities and powers subjected to Him. (1 Peter 3:22)
    It is quite clear why angels are to proskyneo worship Jesus. He now sits in a position higher than the angels having sat down on his Father’s throne (Rev 3:21) and in this way he has become better than the angels.

    Indeed, carefully regard the following:

    Then King David said to the entire assembly… Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless YAHWEH your God.” And all the assembly blessed YAHWEH, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and WORSHIPED YAHWEH and the King…. Then Solomon sat on the Throne of YAHWEH as King instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him. All the officials, the mighty men, and also all the sons of King David pledged allegiance to King Solomon. (1 Chronicles 29).

    Notice how King David had sat on “the throne of YAHWEH” and all the assembly of Israel proskyneo worshiped both YAHWEH and King David. And indeed, the entire first chapter of the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus has sat down at the right hand of God; Jesus now sits on the throne of YAHWEH. And Jesus has not only been given authority over Israel like his father David but he was given authority over all things when God raised him from the dead. The one God has put his son in charge of everything. For this reason also, we are told that God has appointed a man through whom He, God, will judge all men (Acts 17:30-31).
    5. Peter and Cornelius

    Another way Trinitarians attempt to misrepresent the facts is by quoting the following passage:
    “When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” (Acts 10:25-26).
    The word here too is proskyneo. Here, Trinitarians often claim, is evidence that Peter knew that nobody was to bow down before anyone but God. However, this is reading an extraneous concept into the text. Peter is not a King nor was there any reason for Cornelius to bow down to him. Cornelius was bowing down to Peter because God had given him a vision to send men to bring Peter to his household. Hence, Cornelius was in a state where he perceived that God himself considered Peter to be a very important man. But Peter was taught by Jesus to serve and not lord over anyone. Hence, Peter was taught by Jesus to serve people and not have them bow down to him.

    In the Scriptures, it is plain that there was nothing wrong with bowing down in subjection to higher authorities (proskyneo) other than God. However, there was a big problem with bowing down before the host of heaven or other gods. God forbids anyone to do this type of thing. But he forbids no one from bowing down before higher authorities. In fact, we read at Romans 13:1ff that the authorities which exist were estalbished by God. To refuse to bow down before these authorities is to disobey God.

    In his temptation, Jesus was being tempted to DISOBEY God and rather do the devil’s will. Jesus’ response was that he would rather submit to his God and Father’s authority and serve Him alone.

    6. The Angel and John

    Another Trinitarian contraption is to quote this verse and interpret it as they please:

    And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours.” (Revelation 22:8-9).
    Here again we will find how Trinitarians are blinded with their own desires that they can’t see the truth right in front of their own noses. They claim that this angel refused proskyneo worship because this is only due to God. But again Trinitarians are caught in their own lies when it is observed that Lot did indeed proskyneo worship the angels of YHWH who were sent by YHWH and there was no problem with it at all. Indeed, during this act of submission, he refers to them as “Lords.” And even further yet, Trinitarians are caught with their foot in their mouth at Revelation 22:8-9. Follow the speaker.

    And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of THE ANGEL who showed me these things. But HE said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God. And HE said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
    Shall we conclude this angel, who had admonished John for bowing down before him, is the Alpha and Omega? Or shall we conclude this was Jesus who told John not to bow down before him and rather “Worship God?” Either way, the Trinitarian is caught in his own folly.

    7. Jews worshiping Christians

    I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie–I will make them come and worship (proskyneo) at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Revelation 3:8-9.

    Conclusion

    When we have all the facts before us the truth is plain to see. People all over the Bible are bowing down before higher authorities who are not God. The Israelites were not allowed to bow down before other gods since doing so would be a gesture that they were submitting to the authority of these gods and not to Yahweh their God, a jealous God. And when we come to the New Testament, we find people appropriately bowing down before the higher authority Jesus because he is the King of Israel and because he is the Son of God Most High. He was royalty and humans bow down before royalty, their King, and rightly so. God has appointed all authorities in heaven and on earth. And when the man Jesus is resurrected and ascends to the very throne of God, all creation is subject to him. We are told this resurrected man is above all other authority and rule with all the angels subject to him. Indeed, we are told that God made him “Lord” in his resurrection (Acts 2:30-36) and have given him all this authority (Matthew 28:18) having sat down at the right hand of God until he puts all his enemies under his feet. The Trinitarian claim is a farce.

    Last Updated: March 26, 2011

    Notes:

    Proskyneo: The word proskyneo simply means “to bow down before,” or to prostrate one’s self before another in the sense that one is acknowledge his low estate as compared to the high estate of the person he is bowing down before. It is a gesture of submission to a higher authority. This Greek word does not come packed with the the constellation of religious ideas that we have with the English word “worship.”

    Latreuo. This Greek word is still not exactly the same as the English word “worship” but it is much closer and usually denotes religious worship. It carries the idea of serving a higher authority in a religious or spiritual sense. While this word also does not itself connotate service to a divine being, the concept of serving a divine being is indeed usually implied.

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