Haters seek to exploit this appalling attack

Haters will exploit this appalling terrorist attack by speaking lies about Islam and Muslims. They will know of the numerous explicit commands in the Qur’an and sunnah prohibiting the murder of the innocent. Terrorism is prohibited in the shariah and is punishable with death. Mark Collett is a leading figure on the far right here in the UK. For reasons best known to himself, he refuses to face facts and get educated about Islam. Happily voters throughout Europe have rejected his brand of politics in recent elections.

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Categories: Evil, Extremism, Islamophobia, Terrorism

176 replies

  1. The Bishop of Manchester in the Church of England:

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    • Extremists hate all that an Ariana Grande concert in Manchester stands for: joy, unity, openness without frontiers.

      Following the massacre at the Bataclan concert venue in Paris in November 2015, IS said about the victims that they were “pagans” gathered for “a concert in prostitution and sin”. In a message that is said to be from the Islamic state, the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester is said to be a shame and the victims – including an eight-year-old girl – are called crusaders.

      They kill us because they hate how we choose to live our lives. For the music we listen to and for the matches we go on. They do it because they want our societies to weakened, polarized, that we and our politicians back from our values.

      That will not happen.

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  2. THese people who try to exploit the victims for their anti Muslim bigotry really don’t care about the victims.

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  3. The killer was a Muslim following what he believes to be the Islamic faith. Face facts bilal

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    • just like those in the KKK are following what they believe to be the Christian faith. Face facts Paulus.

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    • Lassie returns! Just can’t stay away, eh?

      The LRA might have some use for you. They kill women and children like your mangod commanded.

      So Lassie, was the killing of Canaanite children right or wrong? 😉

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    • Paulus move your ass to Iraq and get persecuted until you get blown to smithereen by American christian bomb.

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    • Paul Wrote…

      “just like those in the KKK are following what they believe to be the Christian faith. Face facts ”

      My response:

      Yah except they’re not. Can you quote any texts from the NT that justify what the KKK have done. Show me that Burning Cross verse or the wear white hood verse, or what about calling the leaders the “grand dragon” lol

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    • Do your own research into the KKK and how they justify their christian views.

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    • Bilal.

      Can we have a discussion around the idea of innocence? It is my understanding that according to this stream of Islam the people killed were not innocent. Do you think your idea of innocence is contrary to other Muslims?

      E.g us kafir are hated

      They who dispute the signs of Allah [kafirs] without authority having reached them are greatly hated by Allah and the believers. So Allah seals up every arrogant, disdainful heart. and despised by Allah.

      Annihilated
      So the kafirs were annihilated. All praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

      Terrorised
      Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, “I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the kafirs’ hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fin-gers!”

      While you personally may not apply those texts to us today, I suggest that many, if not most, would. Ergo, this idea of innocence needs some definition

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    • In Islam kiling innocent people is prohibited. Ie those killed last night had not committed any crime. They were just kids.

      Even if they had, they should be tried in a court of law not just slaughtered.

      Terrorism is a serious crime in shariah and if found guilty the terrorist can be put to death. Suicide (as in suicide bombing yesterday) is also prohibited and a massive sin.

      Islamically everything that happened yesterday was utterly haram.

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    • I understand that. I’m asking how we define innocent? Cause clearly according to some Muslims these kids were not innocent. Do you think Muslims have multiple perspectives around who is, or isn’t, innocent?

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    • The question is not what some Muslims might think but what does God teach in the Quran and sunnah. You have to be duly convicted of a crime. The kids committed no conceivable crime or wrongdoing. Therefore it is absolutely forbidden to attack them in any way. That is Islamic teaching. There is no divergence of opinion in the Quran and sunnah or the opinions of the sahabah, or the four schools.

      As to the evil motives of this mass murderer I do not know. Whatever they are, they do not stem from Islam.

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  4. Seriously! You’re a d%@&head Paulus!

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  5. Yah Dude get your self educated.

    Quran 8:12 – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

    “Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror, and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.” Abu Huraira added: Allah’s Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220)”

    It is reported on the authority of Sa’b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)

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    • “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)

      yeah, those Hadith and Qur’an passages are the very ones I have read in articles of Islamic leaders justifying terrorism and suicide bombings, and killing innocent people.

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    • Wrong. There are many verses in Quran and sunnah that deny and prohibit killing of innocents.

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    • What about that “they are from them” texts in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim?

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    • Yawn. There has been a massive discussion on that Hadith over the past three+ days. KEEP UP

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    • Ken,
      Have you read what that hadith means?
      The explination of Al qadhi Iyadh, for example. He stated that it’s agrred by all muslims Fiqh that it’s forbidden to kill children. Ask yourself why? Ask yourself why all 4 madhabs agreed upon that? Is it possible they just lie to sataisfy the criminal west?
      Also, Why didn’t you state that hadith completely. That hadith is affirming that it’s forbidden to kill children and women otherwise why that man asked the prophet pbuh.
      That haditha as the man’s question, which is about some (situations) in wars that you can avoid, and children could be become victims but not intentionally in some situations of war.
      Finally, again and again you’re the last people who have the right to criticize anyone after what you’ve done for children of Iraq.

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    • Ken notice none of them actually dealt with the text I posted. Also notice that Abdullah just gave the reason why the murder of the 20 + British kuffar is halah from allah.

      Abdullah wrote… “Finally, again and again you’re the last people who have the right to criticize anyone after what you’ve done for children of Iraq.”

      Abdullah thanks for pointing out why the Murder of children is permissible in Islam.

      “And if you punish [an enemy, O believers], punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed. But if you are patient – it is better for those who are patient.” Q: 16:126

      Thanks

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    • quote :
      Abdullah thanks for pointing out why the Murder of children is permissible in Islam.

      “And if you punish [an enemy, O believers], punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed. But if you are patient – it is better for those who are patient.” Q: 16:126
      end quote

      what in the arabic supports baby killing like we find in the bible?

      moses was “meek and humble” and gods friend, according to the bible, moses slit the throat of 3 year old and PREGNANT women.

      Yusuf Ali: And if ye do catch them out, catch them out no worse than they catch you out: But if ye show patience, that is indeed the best (course) for those who are patient.

      Yusuf Ali: And do thou be patient, for thy patience is but from Allah; nor grieve over them: and distress not thyself because of their plots.

      so the muslims are to catch them out off guard like they tried to catch out the muslims off guard . what does one do in plots? what has this got to do with baby killing?

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  6. What do Wahabis, Hamas, Hezbollah, Sayeed Qutb, Hassan Al Banna, Usama Ben Laden, Anwar Al Alawki, and Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi base their philosophy and actions on?

    What percentage of KKK people are even around that do things that make the international or even national news, and do they go all over the world blowing up themselves? Do KKK people drive cars into crowds?
    Do KKK take over 1/3 of 2 whole countries (Syria and Iraq) and create a terrorist nation-state and execute people and cut their heads off and crucify Christians, and cut off hands and feet? (per Qur’an 5:33)

    Is it possible to think that there is something wrong with Islamic texts in the Qur’an (like 9:29; 8:39; 5:33; and many other verses) and many Hadith, and not hate Muslims as people but sincerely want them to find the peace, joy, hope, and love in Jesus? (Romans 5:1-11)

    Some people are haters and bigots, but not everyone who questions the Islamic texts and is asking questions about Islam and terrorism and sees a lot of problems with Islam itself, is a hater; nor a bigot.

    It is possible for Christians to genuinely love Muslims and want them to know the peace and love of God in Christ (Romans 5:1-11) , but question the doctrines and practices of Islam itself, and see many problems with how many Muslims are getting radicalized to do violent things in the last 30 years, especially since 9-11-2001.

    Yes!

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    • Christian terrorism is a massive plaque in the world. The Bible portrays God as a genocidal killer. Be imitators of God says the NT. Christian history is far more bloodthirsty than Islamic history.

      See the terrible reality of Christian terror here:

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

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    • Amazing that you think that and rely on the distant past and the nutty group in the Congo; whereas terrorism based on Islamic texts and Jihadist ideology are causing terror all over the world in random chaos.

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    • Go look at the ongoing Christian terror documented in the link

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    • mostly about the past KKK stuff and the Congo; not much compared to the terror inspired based on Qur’an and Hadith and Tafsir history texts.

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    • Stupid. Islam teaches it is absolutely wrong to kill innocent people. You are like a Nazi lying about the Jews. Same mind set

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    • Some texts do teach it is wrong; then others teach it is ok. Muslim terrorists are using the texts that say it is good to do what they do. Your texts have lots of contradictions.

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    • The devil can quote scripture.

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    • that’s true; but your religion has a whole movement of a percentage all over the world that is causing chaos and murder, that has developed from Sayeed Qutb, Wahabism, Ben Laden, Isis/isil/da’esh, etc.

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    • The biggest cause of death and chaos is your own country Ken, most people in the world (according to surveys) think the US is the most dangerous country in the world. And it is run by Christians. Your blindness is staggering.

      Without the US there would be far less terror. Think Iraq.

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    • That’s a really dumb statement.

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    • American arrogance throughout the world is legendary, you lot are the biggest cause of violence and terror on the planet.

      And you are Christians!

      May God save us from you!

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    • cause – no.

      responding to what muslim terrorists started is not “the cause”.

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    • Wahabi-ism, Al Banna, Sayeed Qutb and Ben Laden and Hamas, etc. started long before 2003 Iraq invasion.

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    • They are not Islamic if they target innocent civilians. The Quran prohibits that.

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    • those Hadith say otherwise, and Surah 9:29 is a big problem.

      Even Erik here quoted something about “Hadith rules over the Qur’an”

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    • The Hadith have many commands profiting the killing of innocents. Unlike the Bible where Jesus commands the slaughter of babies,

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    • Ibn Kathir[14] in his book Al-Bidaya wa’l-Nihaya, took the reverse position that sunnah as later revelation should take precedence over the Quran.[15]

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    • The Sunnah condemns killing of innocent people. ISIS violate this teaching.

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    • how did that ISIS philosophy inspire so many? (not just a few here and there)

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    • And those Hadith go back centuries and the unjust Islamic inspired wars against Byzantine Empire (Surah 9:29) and Persian Empire were centuries ago, millenia ago.

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    • Liberation from tyranny and discrimination for most Christians and Jews!

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    • But it was not; it was unjust and oppression and Copts and other Christian minorities, and Jews and Zoroastrians know this. Oppression for all the force at the Persians and Seljuk Turks and other Turks. Yasir Qadhi admitted that most of the Abbasids and Uthmaniye (Ottomans) came from women sex-maids captured in war. Basically, Islamic wars were obeying Surah 9:5 and 9:29 and 8:39 and Hadith and killing most of the men and then taking the women as sex-slaves (whom your right hand possesses) – its also in the Qur’an. Very ugly.

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    • No. The Jews and Christians were liberated from Byzantine oppression.

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    • No; unjust wars; and after Islam took over, it was too late. Most of the men were already killed or converted by force; women taken as sex slaves; Yasir Qadhi, your great scholar admits this in the video.

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    • No one was forced to convert to Islam in the early centuries. You are ignorant of history.

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    • It was all about force, first by the sword, then slowly by the Jiziye and Dhimmi principles.

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    • No it was not. No one was forced to convert to Islam. Go and read some history books.

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    • your scholar Yasir Qadhi admitted a lot in that video. Surah 9:29 and 8:39 and the Hadith that “fight the people until they say no one is worthy of worship except Allah” is proof of the force.

      “Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:
      Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ), and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”

      Hadith, Sahih Al Bukhari,
      Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 25
      In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 18
      USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 2, Hadith 25

      It’s all force.

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    • That only applied to a small part of Arabia where polytheists lived. That is how it is understood by scholars.

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    • but that is not how Umar Ibn Al Khattab and Walid Khalid and many other Amirs and Kaliphs applied those verses – they kept doing them for centuries until stopped.

      Hadith says “no two religions will be allowed in Arabia” and then, Qur’an says, “if you fear poverty (because no more money from pagan pilgrimages, then Allah will reward you with booty from Jiziyeh, therefore go on from Surah 9:28 to 9:29 and 8:39 and those Hadith. Ibn Kathir admitted this, that Muhammad ordered attacking Christians and Jews to get the money and Jiziye. Dhimmi-ism based on that and done for centuries.

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    • But then applied the same principles against other pagans, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. The whole conflicts in Indian and Pakistan are because Islam attacked the Hindus, based on the same principles and texts.

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    • Yet it was the Mufti of Jerusalem who sided with Hitler and it is Hamas that has in it’s charter the famous and ugly Hadith – ” fighting/slaying the Jews will continue until the day of resurrection” and “the trees and rocks will cry out, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him” and many of those leaders of those groups quote these passages.

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    • Ken,
      Why do you think someone like Noam Chomsky, an American philosopher, describes America as the greatest terrorist in the world?

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    • did he say that?
      Wikipedia says about Chomsky:

      “Despite having been raised Jewish, Chomsky is currently non-religious, although he has expressed approval of forms of religion such as liberation theology”

      liberation theology is Marxism/communism and approves of violent revolution, mixed in with Roman Catholicism in Latin America – it is an extreme left-wing philosophy that uses it’s political agenda in joining with homosexuals, transgenders, pornographers, abortionists, Darwinian Evolutionists and atheists, etc. to seemingly destroy traditional Judeo-Christian values. I don’t have much respect for him, since his views are used and mixed in with all the other atheism and homosexual stuff to try and destroy the good in the West. We admit when the west sins, but modern leftism uses all kinds of sinful philosophy together to seek to destroy the foundations. Muslim groups in USA also join in with homosexual and marxist groups to destroy conservative and traditional good aspects of society.

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    • Bush said explicitly that Jesus the one who told him to invade Iraq.
      Bush said the invasion of Iraq is a crusade .

      Those are not small group in your country. Those are the leaders !

      ” God spoke to me” has the very legitimate that your bible has as I know christians

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    • The key difference between the KKK and IsIS that crafty Muslims like Paul Williams seem to be overlooking is that the KKK’s actions are totally at odds with the teachings of the NT whereas as ISIS are following the commands and instructions of the Quran and sunnah to the letter. In fact their take is evidently far closer to the pure Islam practiced in the 7th century by Mo and his cohorts than the self righteous hypocrites Muslims you get in the west today.

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    • When they quote pure Qur’an and Hadith without the later developments, that seems more correct; since SOME muslims are doing that stuff; but KKK is marginalized to almost nothing in today’s world, and make fun of, as they should be.

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    • The US – your country – create the chaos that lead to ISIS.

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    • No; they are responsible for their own ideology and actions. That’s rich – blaming others for their own sins. You as a Muslim should see that they should responsibility for their own sins rather than always blaming everything on others – like the common Muslim blaming the USA or the Jews or the British, etc. for their own reactions. God says your own choices and reactions are the problem, you cannot blame others and play the victim and wallow in self-pity.

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    • Until Americans come to realise the violence and harm they have done and are still afflicting around the world, you have NO moral authority to lecture Muslims.

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    • just response to unjust terrorism is not the problem.

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    • “When they quote pure Qur’an and Hadith without the later developments, that seems more correct; since SOME muslims are doing that stuff; but KKK is marginalized to almost nothing in today’s world, and make fun of, as they should be.”

      Just imagine the conditions of “life” (rather hell) most people on earth face in the war zones. Just imagine these conditions in the US. How long do you think Christian militias will break loose hell quoting the Bible left right and centre? How about looking at the real history and conditions of terrorism. Too much asked for from a Bible thumping fundamentalist.

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    • you are still playing victim mentality and self-pity and blaming others for your own sins. Does Islam give you permission to blame others for your own people’s sins and choices?

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    • Cut the preaching Temple. This is not only a matter of religion. Terrorism is a modern socio-economic-political phenomenon.

      Yes these atrocities have to stop. There is no excuse for it.

      But there are explanations that give a more accurate realistic picture than your narrow minded black and white monocausal world view. You try to exploit this appalling attack for your own anthrpophobic world view.

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    • Yes these atrocities have to stop. There is no excuse for it.

      How?

      Why doesn’t Saudi, Jordan, Turkey take Isis out? They could do it if they really wanted to, if they agreed with each other. But also there is too much pride and too much fighting among Shiites and Sunnis against each other – what a messed up thing! the hatred they (some of each) have for each other is incredible.

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    • “you are still playing victim mentality and self-pity and blaming others for your own sins”

      no , that’s what jesus did

      “You are demon-possessed,” the crowd answered. “Who is trying to kill you?”

      even the yahood realised that jesus was playing the victim card.

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    • anthropophobic.

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    • irrational fear of man-kind?
      how do you get that accusation?

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    • “take Isis out?”

      You are a moron.

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  7. I have not even heard yet that the officials know for sure if the killer was a radicalized Muslim terrorist.

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    • Ok, now I see that Isis/ Isil (da’esh) داعش of Syria and Iraq has claimed responsibility for it.

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    • Ken,
      Give us just (one) verse/hadith saying it’s ok to kill yourself as your bible is praising Samson when he killed himself.
      And still I’m waiting you to answer about Jesus and his God.!

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    • Modern Jihadists like Hamas and Al Qaeda and Isis justify suicide bombing and base it on Hadith, Qur’an, and Tafsirs.

      “Jesus and his God” – I don’t know what you mean; already answered a lot on those issues.

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    • Many of your church fathers believed that you should oppress the jews and burn the heretics based on some Jesus’ parables in your bible. And you try to portray Islam based on “modern” understanding?

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    • And you try to portray Islam based on “modern” understanding?

      not me; that is what Ibn Kathir, Umar, Wahab, Sayeed Qutb, Hassan Al Banna, Anwar Al Alawki, Usama Ben Laden, Al-Baghdadi, Isis do with your texts. That is the problem in today’s world, not some early church fathers and one statement taken too far from Augustine, taken too far later to justify Inquisition and Crusades, etc.

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    • This is a lie and a strategy taught in the “school” of the clown called david wood.
      You have to prepare both cheeks of yours to be slapped heavily if you use the material of that “school”.
      You’re the one who is responsible for your cheeks, Ken.

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    • David Wood did not write for Hamas, Hassan Al Banna, Sayeed Qutb, Wahab, Alawki, Ben Laden, Al Baghdadi – and all their own quoting of Hadith, Qur’an, and Tasfirs, and Fiq, etc. – all one has to do is read them for their own words. Others who are not Christian nor Evangelical have written on this also.

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    • Wood is a convicted criminal who tried to kill his father with a hammer. He is no position to lecture others on violence.

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    • 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 – “such were some of you, but you have been justified, washed, sanctified in Jesus Christ.

      Christ changed his (David Wood) heart and he is no longer that person. Listen to his testimony.

      “If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature, the old has passed away; behold new things have begun.” 2 Corinthians 5:17

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    • Lol just religious propaganda. He shows the same sociopathic tendencies towards Muslims. He is a damaged man. The evil is still there. Everyone but you it seems can see it.

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    • no he doesn’t. He and Nabeel clearly communicate their love for Muslims as people, but want to expose that they sincerely see as the “dark side of Islam” – the violence Jihad stuff and oppression of women.

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    • Lol You are delusional. Your religion blinds you to what is going on.

      Both Shamoun and Wood are clearly mentally ill in different ways. Many have noticed this. Wake up.

      Muslim certainly see no “love” coming from them.

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    • Shamoun has a deep anger problem yes; but I have not seen D. Wood do that.

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    • Also, just read Nidal Hassan’s (what an evil ugly man) justification for what he did. David Wood did not write that. Nidal Hassan gave a 45 minute Power Point of justification for Muslim violence and all the stuff you are crying that it is not Islamic, he was quoting Qur’an and Hadith left and right. They other Army Psychologists were stunned, but silent, and did know what to do. They did nothing . . . a little later Nidal Hassan did his evil did with Allah o Akbar and writings that justified it.

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    • So? Calvin had a non Trinitarian Christian brutally burnt to death on the Bibles orders. You follow Calvin.

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    • I don’t agree with Calvin on that – no Baptists agree with Calvin on that; nor infant baptism, nor church government unified with the state government. You are Very ignorant of the differences within Reformed theology and history.

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    • You believe a man filled with the HS could have a man burned to death because he disagreed with his theology.

      Hmm who does that remind me of???

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    • Calvin and Luther and Zwingli inherited that culture from the Roman Catholics who had corrupted Christianity for centuries. it took a while for good to triumph over those deep mistakes of combining church and state. But Islam agrees with that – Saudis and Taliban (and Isis) still follow those Fiq Huddud punishments – same thing as the burning of Servetus for heresy – Islamic countries and groups still do that today; but the west does not.

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    • Er… Calvin was just following your Bible which requires burning for some crimes. Take responsibility for your religion and stop throwing the bible under the bus.

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    • No one in the west does that anymore; but some Muslims still do that stuff. You lost that debate big time.

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    • The West carpet bombs whole cities killing many thousands of civilians. It has done this many times. You lost that massively, an apologist killing in an industrial scale.

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    • nope; they went over-board to make sure they did not harm civilians, which is one reason Isis not defeated yet, because they are so entangled in with the poor innocent Muslims who are living in fear as their slaves, etc.

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    • Lol we carpet bombed Germany and later on Vietnam.

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    • The Nazis deserved it. Hitler started the war and was evil.

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    • It (what Calvin agreed to, burning Servetus – he pleaded for a quicker execution, but he agreed that heresy should be punished, as Islam does; but the Geneva city government was who did the execution) reminds me of Islam, that punishes people with death penalty for adultery and heresy and blasphemy, apostasy, etc.

      it is funny that Muslims are condemning Calvin for that when your whole religion and Shariah law is famous for just that very thing – executing people for apostasy, heresy, adultery, blasphemy, etc.

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    • Funny how you are continually throwing your bible in the bin.

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    • NT revelation and theology fulfilled OT and has abrogated some stuff; yes. Praise God! You just proved that KKK is not Christian and yet Islam agrees with OT punishments and wars. (it’s own version of those things)

      You lost the argument big time.

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    • Where does the NT abrogate killing of adultery?

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    • I Corinthians chapter 5:1-13 – “expel the evil man out of your fellowship” – no killing

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    • “Wood is a convicted criminal who tried to kill his father with a hammer. He is no position to lecture others on violence.”

      atheist richard carrier thinks he is a liar for jesus.

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    • Atheist Richard Carrier is an admitted adulterer and justified his immorality because of his atheism and with atheism, there is no morality or judgment day or guilt, so people do whatever they want. Carrier is not a credible source for you to bring into the conversation. Even his own atheist group kicked him out because of adulteries and lies and justifications.

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    • quote :
      1 Corinthians 6:9-11 – “such were some of you, but you have been justified, washed, sanctified in Jesus Christ.

      Christ changed his (David Wood) heart and he is no longer that person. Listen to his testimony.

      end quote

      so why don’t you invite him in your house and let him in the tool shed?

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    • “Atheist Richard Carrier is an admitted adulterer and justified his immorality because of his atheism and with atheism, there is no morality or judgment day or guilt, so people do whatever they want. Carrier is not a credible source for you to bring into the conversation. Even his own atheist group kicked him out because of adulteries and lies and justifications.”

      you get your bible from a people who had concubines and david, the beloved of god, banged a woman, yet “gods justice” killed the new born and let dave continue to bang away. .
      you praise the murderers, paedophiles and adulterers in the jewish bible and jesus speaks great words about them .you are a hypocrite.

      why do you trust anything these adulterers, fornicators s and liars said about god?

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    • “no he doesn’t. He and Nabeel clearly communicate their love for Muslims as people, but want to expose that they sincerely see as the “dark side of Islam” – the violence Jihad stuff and oppression of women.”

      how come mary madgalene is jesus’ errand girl? i don’t see any where that she is called a disciple.
      jesus view of women stinks
      he makes a non-jewish woman beg like a bitch , but acts promptly upon the request of pagan centurion, how come?

      was it morally right to cut open 3 year old?
      was it morally right for god to command the cutting open of heavily pregnant women?

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    • “Hamas, Hassan Al Banna, Sayeed Qutb, Wahab, Alawki, Ben Laden, Al Baghdadi – and all their own quoting of Hadith, Qur’an, and Tasfirs, and Fiq, etc. – all one has to do is read them for their own words. Others who are not Christian nor Evangelical have written on this also.”

      This just shows how ignorant you’re!
      First of all, we are talking about modern understanding! You cannot portray Islam based on that while you are neglecting the great bulk of Islamic literature , scholarship, and jurisprudence.
      Also, those modern figures that you mentioned are not all scholars. Sayyid, for example, was just a writer. He himself didn’t claim to be a scholar in Islam. And most important , all of them didn’t say it’s ok to kill innocent people.
      Alwlaki and Ben laden have been refuted by muslim scholars, but for your information, you’ve killed Alwlak against the US law which gives the (American citizen) the right to defend himself. Also, you have killed his child daughter in Yemen.

      Moreover, It’s just a fact that christians are the most bloody people in the human history. You cannot deny that. We know that the bible has been the most influential book for the west, and they are the most bloody people in the human history. I let you draw the equation for yourself.
      It’s obvious from you and christians like you that you take the picture of those incidents from your hatred against Islam. You neglect the major factors leading to these situations.
      You know that you cannot face Islam with argument, so you need a b plan. So pathetic.

      NB.
      You have not answered my question about Jesus and his God . I’m waiting…

      Like

  8. Ken,

    The hadith is referring to accidental killings during night raids. The very fact that they asked the Prophet about it shows that they knew that it was forbidden to kill women and children. But due to the circumstances of war, the Prophet stated that it was an acceptable risk.

    Now Ken, maybe you can answer my question. I’ve asked this question to four of your nutjob brethren and they refused to answer:

    Was the killing of Canaanite children right or wrong?

    Liked by 2 people

    • You are living in a land where American man worshippers destroyed the culture and language of native Americans. They thought that they were the new Israel and were using words from jesus to dominate and killed.

      Like

    • Hugo Grotius(1583-1645) the reputed father of international law, has an even more ingenious explanation for jesus’ injunction of turning the other cheek, we ought to interpret this as literally as possible, meaning that christ is encouraging non-retaliation only in the case where one is struck on those body parts, namely the cheeks .

      Therefore, jesus does not prohibit retaliation when someone strikes any other body part…. in fact , the selection of ‘cheeks’ for this injunction shows that jesus intended non-retaliation for the LIGHTEST OF INJURY possible rather than for more severe injuries….basing himself on supposed hebrew customs , Grotius also opines that ‘ turning the cheek’ could be entirely figurative . in addition, Grotius argues that christ is not addressing magistrates , who may have duties to retaliate when the larger national body is attacked.

      the bad jesus
      chapter 2
      the unloving jesus
      page 45

      Like

    • Exactly, Faiz.
      If it’d not been forbidden, that man would’ve not needed to ask the prophet pbuh.
      Also, Al Qadhi Iyadh stated under this hadith when he explained Sahih Muslim that it’s a consensus among muslims it’s forbidden.

      Like

  9. There’s good and bad across every faith, culture and society. Good and bad. Let’s focus on the good, and oppose the bad, shall we? Muslims were helping people in the aftermath of the attack. So were Christians, atheists, and people from all walks of life.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Notice just my asking questions about the texts of the Qur’an and why SOME Muslims do such things; and clearly stated that I love Muslims and want them to know the peace, joy, love, and hope in Christ – notice how they turned the whole discussion into:

      The KKK – a past thing and so small with no significance at all today.

      Norm Chaomsky and his leftist liberation theology, etc.

      Calvin agreeing to burning the heretic Servetus in the 1500s
      The American Indians
      Carpet bombing the Nazis
      the invasion of Iraq in 2003, etc.

      It’s all blaming others for their problems within the house of Islam.

      And then when I explain that the NT did abrogate some of the OT laws; Williams doesn’t see that that proves his first example of KKK was wrong; because a lot of the Muslim world still does those Shariah Huddud punishments; and some do war and terrorism and seek to bring a Caliph back.

      From above, part of my first comment:

      Is it possible to think that there is something wrong with Islamic texts in the Qur’an (like 9:29; 8:39; 5:33; and many other verses) and many Hadith, and not hate Muslims as people but sincerely want them to find the peace, joy, hope, and love in Jesus? (Romans 5:1-11)

      Some people are haters and bigots, but not everyone who questions the Islamic texts and is asking questions about Islam and terrorism and sees a lot of problems with Islam itself, is a hater; nor a bigot.

      It is possible for Christians to genuinely love Muslims and want them to know the peace and love of God in Christ (Romans 5:1-11) , but question the doctrines and practices of Islam itself, and see many problems with how many Muslims are getting radicalized to do violent things in the last 30 years, especially since 9-11-2001.

      Yes!

      Like

    • “and not hate Muslims as people but sincerely want them to find the peace, joy, hope, and love in Jesus? (Romans 5:1-11)”

      do any muslims want to hold an instrument of torture and murder ?

      do any muslims want to do the ritual of eating blood, wounds and flesh ?

      do any muslims want to tell themselves that god thinks you are shit, filth, menstrual rags , “born in sin”
      and you being a human is not even worth it?

      do any muslims want to be told that god saved a human from being a human?

      do any muslim want to tell themselves that only a bloody violent go between can mend the way between invisible god and material thing?

      jesus is a modern day animal sacrifice which allows sinners like you to get away with sin, sinful thoughts, etc

      how can you speak about hope, peace and joy when VIOLENCE is at the HEART of your religion ?

      Like

    • I’ll repeat my earlier statement- that’s there good and bad within every culture. I won’t demonise Islam and I won’t demonise Christianity either.

      Like

    • ken, you need to start teaching english to your christian brethren

      Like

  10. Joj, who I assume is Kev/Kevin/Kev34, said:

    “The key difference between the KKK and IsIS that crafty Muslims like Paul Williams seem to be overlooking is that the KKK’s actions are totally at odds with the teachings of the NT whereas as ISIS are following the commands and instructions of the Quran and sunnah to the letter. In fact their take is evidently far closer to the pure Islam practiced in the 7th century by Mo and his cohorts than the self righteous hypocrites Muslims you get in the west today.”

    LOL, well tell that to the KKK or the LRA or any other Christian terrorist group.

    Just take a gander at the following website of the “White Camelia Knights of the Ku Klux Klan”. It is full of verses from the Bible that are used to justify racial segregation and killing of homosexuals:

    http://www.wckkkk.org/nature.html

    The LRA has used the Bible to justify its crimes as well. According to one observer:

    “The way the LRA used the Bible, in a literal sense, to justify their violent actions has caused a complete overturn of the social and generational structures of the Acholi people” (http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/the-bible-as-a-weapon-of-war).

    Talk about “self righteous hypocrites”! Joj, you silly pagan, you should look at yourself in the mirror! Your watered-down and secularized version of the Bible doesn’t sit well with good Christian soldiers like the KKK or LRA. Onward, Christian soldiers marching off to war!

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Ken said:

    “NT revelation and theology fulfilled OT and has abrogated some stuff; yes. Praise God! You just proved that KKK is not Christian and yet Islam agrees with OT punishments and wars. (it’s own version of those things)

    You lost the argument big time.”

    LOL, this is Ken’s secret weapon in debates: “Nope, you lost…”

    There is no evidence in the Bible that the NT “abrogated some stuff”. Jesus followed the law and so did his disciples. Why else did James ask Paul to take the Nazirite vow?

    Also, according the Tanakh (the so-called “Old Testament”), God’s laws were to be established for all times. This is clearly stated in Ezekiel 37:

    “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.”

    There is no ambiguity here. The law was to be established forever. This contradicts the position of Christians like Ken. If Jesus had abolished the law, then he could not be the Messiah, given the condition set in Ezekiel 37.

    The following website supports the establishment of the law forever: http://www.romancatholicism.co.uk/everlastinglaw.html

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Manchester United Soccer Hooligan said:

    “Ken notice none of them actually dealt with the text I posted. Also notice that Abdullah just gave the reason why the murder of the 20 + British kuffar is halah from allah.

    Abdullah wrote… “Finally, again and again you’re the last people who have the right to criticize anyone after what you’ve done for children of Iraq.”

    Abdullah thanks for pointing out why the Murder of children is permissible in Islam.

    “And if you punish [an enemy, O believers], punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed. But if you are patient – it is better for those who are patient.” Q: 16:126”

    LOL, maybe its because we know that responding to your misquotes of the Quran and Hadiths will not make a difference. Brainwashed Christian zombies will be brainwashed Christian zombies. Your holy spirit has rotted your brain, so no amount of rational discussion will make a difference.

    However, we can at least expose you as a satanic liar and humiliate you in the process. So, let’s begin:

    Surah 8:12 is referring to a battle between the Muslims and the Meccan pagans. That is the context. And according to the Islamic rules of warfare, only combatants can be killed. In contrast, your mangod commanded the killing of children and babies as part of his scorched earth policy of terror.

    Also, Surah 8:61 states:

    “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).”

    So, peace is always preferred. In contrast, your mangod was not interested in peace between his Israelite hordes and the Canaanites. The choice was extermination and nothing else.

    So, soccer hooligan, let me ask you as I have asked several of your satanic coreligionists:

    Was the killing of Canaanite children by your mangod’s hordes right or wrong?

    As for the hadiths you quoted, we know that deliberately killing children was absolutely forbidden. However, the necessities of war made civilian casualties a possibility. It was not desired but it was accepted that military operations could lead to civilian casualties. However, this did not mean that Muslims could haphazardly attack enemy encampments without any regard for women and children that might get in the way. That is why the hadith refers to NIGHT raids, when visibility was difficult.

    In contrast, your mangod commanded the deliberate destruction of enemy cities and the total annihilation of its inhabitants. Moses, Joshua, Gideon…these were all the Israelite equivalents of Genghis Khan.

    Like

  13. Ken for second time lies about this
    “fighting/slaying the Jews will continue until the day of resurrection” and “the trees and rocks will cry out, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him”
    I challange you to quote a such hadith or you have to apologize.

    Your bible teaches that Jesus is gonna kill all jews except 144,000

    Like

    • I refuted Ken on this matter months ago. That’s the problem with these Christians. They have a very short attention span and memory. They just keep repeating the same old lies that have been refuted over and over again.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Just like goldfish. 5 second memories

      Liked by 1 person

    • quote :

      Yusuf B Gursey

      May 23 (23 hours ago)

      mr on 5/22/2017 in
      wrote :
      > is there any truth to the claim that pharsi and turkish has 40 % arabic ?

      Arabic entered Persian and Turkish overwhelmingly through bookish
      learning rather than through contact with native speakers and Turks
      were introduced to Islam and Arabic through Persian speakers. The
      amount of Arabic loanwords is highly dependependent on register,
      especially so in Turkish.

      Persian has a considerable number of Arabic loanwords, many quite
      commonly used.
      The Modern Persian of Iran, called Farsi, underwent a moderate reform
      reform under the Shah, replacing many Arabic loanwords with native
      Persian equivalents and preffering new coinages based on native Persian
      vocabulary.

      The Modern Persian of Afghanistan, called Dari by the government, did
      not participate in this reform. OTOH Dari had naturally preserved many
      words from Middle Persian that were lost in the Persian of Iran and had
      been replaced by Arabic loanwords.

      Turkish underwent a very radical language reform purging numerous
      Arabic and Persian loanwords but this reform was not universally
      accepted in its enterity and the number of these in text or in speech
      varies greatly with the writer or the speaker. Basically based his or
      her stance on this issue and his or her education, political opinions
      etc.

      Even during the Ottoman period there was great variation in the use of
      loanwords, formulaic texts for the elite were very elaborate, making
      lavish use of Persian and Arabic, but when the goal was to be
      informative and in casual speech, much less was used.

      For reading on this issue, read Geoffrey Lewis “The Turkish Language
      Refrom: A Catastrophic Success”

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231960788_GEOFFREY_LEWIS_The_Turkish_language_reform_a_catastrophic_success_New_York_Oxford_University_Press_1999_Pp_190_HB_6500

      ken, what do you say to this?

      Like

    • Ken Temple has a habit of exploiting these attacks and putting his own spins on the Qur’an/hadith to demonise Muslims. Just the other day he made up his own translation of the Qur’an to make it say fight the people of the book.

      Like

    • And then his hilariously gives us the Farsi translation as if anyone cares lol

      Liked by 1 person

  14. Ken Temple has a habit of exploiting these attacks and putting his own spins on the Qur’an/hadith to demonise Muslims.
    not true

    I am not trying to demonize all Muslims – but SOME texts are problematic and one can see the problems with them and why SOME Muslims become terrorists, even 1 % of over one billion people is a lot of people spread all over the world who are doing these kinds of things like Isis / Da’esh / Al Qaedah type stuff.

    We as Christians are commanded to love all people and reach out to all, but that does not mean we cannot criticize something in the texts of another religion that seems to motivate too many people to do very evil and bad things, like suicide bombing of innocent people. They have done it against Shiites and Kurds and other Muslims also, and I recognize that, so I am not trying to demonize all Muslims. There is a difference between the people vs. the doctrines/texts.

    Just the other day he made up his own translation of the Qur’an to make it say fight the people of the book.

    Surah 9:29 does say that; and even Ibn Kathir in his commentary confirms this, with verse 28, that because there was no more revenue from the pagans coming to Mecca and Hijaz, and the Hadith that says “no two religions will be allowed in Arabia”, etc. Ibn Kathir says that for this reason, the command came to fight the people of the book, and attack the Byzantine Empire, and Omar carried it out later.

    See here:

    “What is really interesting is verse 28 – “if you fear poverty, soon Allah will enrich you”. the reason for that was because Muhammad had conquered the Hijaz (the Arabian peninsula, especially around Mecca and Medina, and no pagans or idol worshippers were allowed. That means the Muslims could not get tax or penalty money from the pagans. Surah 9:5 – “fight the unbelievers where ever you find them”, proves this, and several Hadith that says “no two religions will be allowed on the Arabian peninsula” see Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288, and other Hadiths, quoted at the bottom of this article *) They were all killed or driven out or converted to Islam. So now, there is no revenue from the pilgrimages, so, according to verses 28-29, they will allow the Christians and Jews to be in the Islamic state, provided they surrender and don’t fight/resist, and pay the Jiziye with humiliation, and they cannot evangelize or build new churches or even criticize Islam.

    Qur’an 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

    Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

    Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4— “Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.”

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—”Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.”

    Like

    • quote :

      We as Christians are commanded to love all people and reach out to all, but that does not mean we cannot criticize something in the texts of another religion that seems to motivate too many people to do very evil and bad things, like suicide bombing of innocent people

      end quote

      do you damn paul for cursing those who preach a different gospel?

      Like

    • Of coarse not; he was writing God’s word in Galatians 1:6-9. False teachers and false gospels and false religions will send people to hell. We can love people, and warn people; but hate the sins and evil deeds that people do; and hate evil doctrines that send people to hell.

      Like

    • “We can love people, and warn people; but hate the sins and evil deeds that people do; and hate evil doctrines that send people to hell.”

      you can’t separate a deed from the actor.it is the person who willingly performs the act. so paul is throwing curses on the actors. you in reality hate the actor .

      Like

    • Wrong;
      “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, yet Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8

      But the wrath of God abides on people who don’t believe or repent and if they die, then yes, they go to hell.
      John 3:36
      Romans 1:18
      Revelation 20:10-15

      Like

    • “We can love people, and warn people”

      do you love bart d ehrman ?

      Like

    • Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

      Sahih International: They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

      Sahih International: They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.

      Sahih International: O you who have believed, indeed many of the scholars and the monks devour the wealth of people unjustly and avert [them] from the way of Allah. And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah – give them tidings of a painful punishment.

      Sahih International: The Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell and seared therewith will be their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, [it will be said], “This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you used to hoard.”

      quote :
      according to paul, disbelievers will bring ” SWIFT DESTRUCTION UPON THEMSELVES…”

      That’s actually a quote from the apostle Peter. Look it up.
      end quote

      quote :
      “We can love people, and warn people; but hate the sins and evil deeds that people do; and hate evil doctrines that send people to hell.”
      end quote

      but why not allow same thought for the Quran ?

      Like

    • “But the wrath of God abides on people who don’t believe or repent and if they die, then yes, they go to hell.”

      BUT YOU ARE DAMNED ALREADY according to john
      IN the QURAN there is ALWAYS doors open for repentance.

      Like

  15. Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Like

    • how can you be so daft and not see that the verse is arguing for FREEDOM of religion? since Islam dominated and became the dominating force it could have CUT the necks of infant, suckling and pregnant women, but it didn’t, it didn’t take the path of judeo-christian war.

      you mentioned about the arabic word. this word can be employed if their is MUTUAL reaction from the people who fight, did pathetic pagan like you know this?

      “Sahih International: They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.”

      you stopped freedom of religion, muslims dominated and made the rules. the difference is that they didn’t smash baby skulls on rocks.

      Like

  16. the word fight, the root, قتل q-t-l – means to fight until the death and slay if need to, kill if need to. This word is also in Farsi and is the word used for “murder”.

    Like

    • pathetic kafir, the muqaatal may repent? or the muqaatal may give up?

      Like

    • “the word fight, the root, قتل q-t-l – means to fight until the death and slay if need to, kill if need to. This word is also in Farsi and is the word used for “murder”.”

      Sahih International: Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

      Sahih International: And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- îaram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

      the text has used form 3 and form 1 in the above mentioned verses.

      it would have employed command form “uqtul” in

      Qur’an 9:29

      why didn’t it?

      Like

    • The command form is used there – 2nd person plural (you all) imperative = command form.
      http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=9&verse=29

      Like

    • ” The command form is used there – 2nd person plural (you all) imperative = command form.”

      hillbilly, so?

      Like

    • do you know the different between THE amr “qaatil” from form 3

      and “uqtul” from form 1 ?

      when i say “qaatil” i am not referring to the ISM FAA3IL

      Like

  17. Mr. Heathcliff:
    Nothing you wrote refutes any of what I said. The quotes don’t give a percentage and in fact confirm what I have said, for they confirm that there are many Arabic words, both in Farsi / Persian and Turkish.

    Some say between 35-40 %, some say 35 %.

    One of the quotes that under the Shah of Iran (which one? Reza Shah or Mohammad Pahlavi Shah? or one of the Savafid Shahs or Nader Shah or Ismail Shah or a Qajar Shah ?)

    This sentence is not understandable English. Try it again.

    The
    amount of Arabic loanwords is highly dependependent on register,
    especially so in Turkish.

    Persian has a considerable number of Arabic loanwords, many quite
    commonly used.
    The Modern Persian of Iran, called Farsi, underwent a moderate reform
    reform under the Shah, replacing many Arabic loanwords with native
    Persian equivalents and preffering new coinages based on native Persian
    vocabulary.

    But the 1979 Khomeini revolution brought a lot of Arabic words back.

    Modern secular Turkish (since Mustapha Kemal Ataturk) has tried to get rid of more Arabic words; true; but grandmothers still use the main Arabic words and Farsi words. The younger and secular people use the modern words; but there is currently a movement to go back to the Arabic roots and Ottoman ways of saying things.

    Like

  18. Think about it : Senseless violence makes Jay Smith and his foot soldiers ecstatic while it breaks the hearts of 99.9% of Muslims.

    Jay Smith and his likes : Over the moon.
    You , me and the rest of the Muslims on this blog : Devastated.

    Like

  19. A cynic would argue that the upshot of Faiz’s defence of night raids on civilians is that Islam only allows genocide at night.

    Islam only allows genocide during the day with weapons fired from a distance.

    Mohammed attacked the city of Taif with a catapult.

    What was their crime?

    Like

    • Ignoramus,

      What was the crime of the Canaanite babies? Was it right or wrong to kill them?

      Liked by 1 person

    • what would a cynic say about jesus’ violence on INNOCENT people in the temple ? surely women were caught by the whip too, right?

      ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

      “That’s not a terrorist attack, that’s more a reaction/defense imo.”

      He made a whip and was whipping people. That’s physical violence. He was preventing people from carrying anything across the courtyard and preventing people from buying and selling animals for sacrifice. He was trying to shut down the Torah mandated function of the Temple altogether at its most busy time and as using physical violence to do so. If a bunch of Muslims went through a church whipping people with bullwhips and trying to shut it down, nobody would say it was not a terrorist attack.

      The challenge was to find something “immoral” about the literary character of Jesus in the Gospels. The assault on the Temple is an example of pointless violence against innocent civilians – low-level functionaries doing a necessary job, to make some entirely symbolic point. I call that terroristic but it doesn’t really matter if you accept that word. The point is that it was, in my view (and I was asked for my view) immoral. Unprovoked violence against innocent people is immoral and even more so during the week of Passover because the city was packed with people from the country, the Romans were greatly outnumbered. The city was a powder keg and the Romans were paranoid about any kinds of riots or disturbances and they reacted swiftly and ruthlessly to stop any potential unrest the second it started. They were big bud-nippers, those Romans. Causing that kind of commotion at the Temple could have gotten hundreds or thousands of innocent people killed. It would be an entirely reckless act which would have engendered great tension or dare I say it, terror among the Jewish crowds.

      What was going on that was immoral? Nothing was in violation of Jewish law. To call it immoral would be to call the Torah itself immoral. Moreover, he was also driving out people who had gone there to sacrifice. The people who would allegedly be the victims under your theory

      ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

      Like

  20. Proof that Ken Temple makes up his own translation of the Qur’an to demonise Muslims:
    https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/04/15/islam-is-not-the-cause-of-honor-killings-its-part-of-the-solution-2/#comment-47118

    Proof Ken Temple doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he tries to explain the word قاتل :
    http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%AA%D9%84/

    But he knows a few words in Farsi… maybe we are supposed to be impressed.

    Liked by 1 person

    • You did not prove anything. Surah 9:29 says basically “fight against the people of the book” and even Ibn Kathir also agreed.

      “who believe not in Allah” = Christians – the people of the book because they believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ and that Jesus is the eternal Son/Word who became flesh.

      “and do not forbid what Allah forbids” – we don’t forbid pork or wine (1 or 2 drinks with a meal or a wedding celebration (like in John 2) is not sin; but getting drunk is a sin. Ephesians 5:18.

      they had icons and pictures and statues of Jesus and Mary, and the author of Qur’an was probably including that also.

      Like

  21. “It is possible for Christians to genuinely love Muslims and want them to know the peace and love of God in Christ”

    john 3 says, “He who does not believe is damned already”

    according to paul, disbelievers will bring ” SWIFT DESTRUCTION UPON THEMSELVES…”

    since new testament textual critics are RECONSTRUCTING a different jesus, then ACCORDING TO paul, they are CURSED:

    But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

    Like

  22. according to paul, disbelievers will bring ” SWIFT DESTRUCTION UPON THEMSELVES…”

    That’s actually a quote from the apostle Peter. Look it up.

    John 3:18 does say those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are condemned already, yes; but as long a person lives, they have opportunity to repent and believe before they die.

    If they died before repentance and faith, they go to hell.

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    • “yes; but as long a person lives, they have opportunity to repent and believe before they die.”

      okay, i curse the false “holy spirit” filling you right now. i am convinced that you are a polytheist. i am 100 % convinced that your god is a false pagan god.

      so according to John 3:18

      i am condemned already .

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    • yes, if you die right now, you will go to hell; but if you live for another 20-50 years, there is hope that you could possibly repent before you die.

      Like

    • God knows the unseen; all we can do is warn people before they die.

      Like

    • “yes, if you die right now, you will go to hell; but if you live for another 20-50 years, there is hope that you could possibly repent before you die.”

      but it is too obvious to me that you worship 3 gods.
      1 does not mean 3

      one thing is not 3 things.

      if it is inborn/innate within my mind that you are a polytheist , how can i lie to myself and say 1 = 3?
      do you see what i mean?

      “God knows the unseen; all we can do is warn people before they die.”

      your god does not know the hour .

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  23. Ken, you need to repent after you reach this age!
    Allah is calling you
    ” So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful ” Surah 5:74

    Stop worshipping a human being, and start worshipping that ONE whom Jesus himself worships and fears.

    Like

  24. Ken always appeals to Ibn Kathir’s commentary on Surah Tawbah 9:29, as if he was the final authority on this matter. Ken has been refuted many times. The guy is a broken record.

    There was an article posted by brother Eric a while back which discussed the proper context of Surah 9:29:

    https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/10/31/jihad-as-defense-just-war-theory-in-the-quran-and-sunnah/

    “According to al-Ṭabarī (d. 923), this verse was revealed prior to the battle of Tabūk.36 The reason for the Tabūk expedition was due to the assassination of one of the Prophet’s ﷺ ambassadors at the hands of a Roman ally, leading to the battle of Mu’tah.

    According to classical jurist Ibn al-Qayyim (d. 1350), the Romans committed the first acts of war that led to the confrontations at Mu’tah and Tabūk:

    The cause of the battle was that the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him, sent Ḥārith ibn Umair al-Azdī of the tribe of Lihb with his letter to Syria for the Roman king or Buṣrā. He presented it to Sharḥabīl ibn ‘Amr al-Ghassaāni and he bound him and struck his neck. Never had an ambassador of the Messenger of God been killed besides him. [The Prophet] was upset by that when news reached him and he dispatched an expedition.37

    This incident made clear that peaceful relations with the Romans were not possible at the time. Hence, the verse 9:29 was revealed in response, consistent with the rules in previous verses.

    Most scholars did not consider unbelief in Islam itself as a casus belli or justification for war. Ibn al-Qayyim reports the view of these jurists:

    Fighting is only necessary to confront war and not to confront unbelief. For this reason, women and children are not killed, neither are the elderly, the blind, or monks who do not participate in fighting. Rather, we only fight those who wage war against us. This was the way of the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him, with the people of the earth. He would fight those who declared war on him until they accepted his religion, or they proposed a peace treaty, or they came under his control by paying tribute.”

    It’s really not that difficult to understand Ken. You just need to get off your high horse.

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