Lessons to learn when comparing the Quranic and New Testament manuscripts

The following article has just been posted on the Facebook page of Bart D. Ehrman, a leading American New Testament scholar. Ehrman’s work focuses on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the development of early Christianity.

bart

Those of you who follow the news have heard that a truly great manuscript discovery has been made public this week, coming out of the University of Birmingham, England. The university has a very important collection of manuscripts, and for New Testament scholars it is famous for its Institute devoted to the study, analysis, and editing of Gospel manuscripts, an institute headed by my long-time friend and colleague David Parker, indisputably one of the top NT textual scholars in the world.

But the discovery that has been made is not connected to the New Testament. It is connected to the Qur’an. Since 1932 the university has had, among its collected works, a virtually full two page fragment of the Qur’an. Recently they decided to see if they could come up with a (relatively) precise date for these pages. And so they had a carbon-14 dating done. The results are nothing less than astounding. See, e.g.,http://edition.cnn.com/…/quran-manuscript-analys…/index.html

Let me say that carbon-14 dating is indeed a science, but it’s not a highly exact science. It dates organic material based on the deterioration of its carbon-14 isotope, and so can give a range of dates that are statistically determined to be of relative accuracy. Even so. This dating is remarkable. The dating was done by a lab devoted to such things in Oxford. It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.

In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE – 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???

Since I am a scholar of early Christianity rather than Islam, this discovery in Birmingham raises all sorts of questions for me that it would not raise for any of my Muslim friends and neighbors. One is a historical question, and one is a question of modern Christian attempts to “prove” the “truth claims” of Christianity.

My historical question is this. If these pages of the Qur’an do indeed show that the text of the Qur’an is virtually the same in, say 630-40 CE as it is in 1630-40 as it is in 2015, that would suggest that Muslims are indeed correct that at least in some circles (it would obviously be impossible to prove that it was true in *all* circles), scribes of the Qur’an simply didn’t change it. The made sure they copied it the same, every time, word for word. Now it *may* be that these newly-dated fragments have significant textual variants from the rest of the manuscript tradition of the Qur’an, and if they do, that too will be immensely interesting. But my sense is that they must not be much, if at all different, otherwise *that* is the story that would be all over the news.

And so back to my question. If Muslim scholars over the centuries – from the very beginning – made dead sure that when they copied their sacred text they didn’t change anything, why didn’t Christian scribes do the same thing??? Here I should stress that within Judaism as well, at least in the Middle Ages, there was exorbitant care taken to ensure that every page, every sentence, every word, every letter of the Torah was copied with complete and resolute accuracy (that’s not true for an earlier period of Judaism, to be sure; but it became true in Judaism in a way that never, ever was true in Christianity). Christian scribes did not do the same thing. We have many thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament. They all have mistakes in them. Lots of accidental mistakes (hundreds of thousands) from times that scribes were inept, inattentive, sleepy, or otherwise careless; and even lots of mistakes that appear to be places that scribes altered the text to make them say something other than what it originally said.

You don’t appear to get that with the Qur’an. And so my historical question. Why was that? For Christians the New Testament was a sacred book, the Word of God. Why didn’t they *make sure* that it never got changed? I can understand on one level why they didn’t. The scribes who copied it, especially in the early period, were not professionals. In the early centuries, the copyists were simply the local people who happened to be literate who could do a decent job. And they made lots of mistakes and changed the text in places intentionally. But why didn’t anyone go to the trouble of making sure that didn’t happen? It’s a genuine question.

My second point has to do with modern attempts to defend the truth of Christianity. I hear a certain perspective expressed a LOT by Christian apologists who are determined to show that Christianity is true (and that, as a result, not just non-belief but all other religions are flat-out wrong). If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard this view I would buy a summer home in Provence. It is this: since the New Testament is the best attested book from the ancient world, we can trust it.

There are so many problems with this view that it’s hard to know even where to begin in addressing it. But let me just say two things about it. The first is that even though it is absolutely true (as I’ve been emphasizing in my posts over the past week or two) that we have more manuscripts of the New Testament than for any other book from Greek and Roman antiquity – far, far more – these manuscripts all differ from one another and contains many thousands (hundreds of thousands) of differences among them, so that even though we can be relatively sure of what the authors wrote most of the time, there are numerous places of disagreement and some of these places really matter. There are some passages where we will probably never know the exact wording.

That may not be the case with the Qur’an.

And that raises my second point, which is really THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ONE. The fact that you do (or do not) know what a book originally said, has no bearing – no bearing at all, not a single bearing – on the question of whether you can trust it or not. It is completely irrelevant to the question. An absolute non sequitur. I wish Christian apologists would learn this, instead of continuously filling people’s heads with nonsense. Being the best-attested book from antiquity has no bearing on the question of whether the things that are said in the New Testament are true. No bearing at all.

I can prove that. Take a Christian fundamentalist apologist and ask him whether Mein Kampf (Hitler’s autobiography) or The Communist Manifesto (a writing of a very different order indeed!) or … well, take your pick of a modern book – whether there are serious textual problems with such writings so that you do not know what the author wrote. The answer is NO. There is not a huge question about how well these books are attested. They are extraordinarily well attested. And here’s the point: Does the fact these books are well attested prove that you can trust them? That what they say is true? Of course not. It’s completely irrelevant. Whether you can trust a writing and accept its views as true is unrelated to the question of how well it is attested.
The New Testament is well attested. Does that mean you can trust that what it says is true? Of course not. You have to make that judgment on *OTHER* grounds.

And now we appear to have evidence – better evidence than, say, for the Gospel of Matthew, or Paul’s letter to the Romans, or the epistle to the Hebrews – that the Qur’an was (at least by some scribes) very accurately copied over the centuries from the time it was produced. Does that “prove” that you can trust what it has to say? Of course not. But for historians it is an absolutely stunning, marvelous, and wonderful discovery nonetheless.

To see this and other posts http://ehrmanblog.org/the-significance-of-an-astounding-ne…/ and join the blog by clicking the “Register” button!



Categories: Books, Christianity, History, Islam, Quran

139 replies

  1. “And now we appear to have evidence – better evidence than, say, for the Gospel of Matthew, or Paul’s letter to the Romans, or the epistle to the Hebrews – that the Qur’an was (at least by some scribes) very accurately copied over the centuries from the time it was produced. Does that “prove” that you can trust what it has to say? Of course not. But for historians it is an absolutely stunning, marvelous, and wonderful discovery nonetheless.”

    Bart Ehrman

    Note: You are right Big Brother Erhman. At least, we have a Quran from the time of our prophet, which is the same to the one we use today. It does not mean both Christianity or Islam are true.

    Brother Ehrman. I think using ones intellect by studying the contents of all scripture will prove the Quran is a true word of God and from God who is One, Only and Alone as already said in the Torah, the oldest word of God amongst them all

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Paul

    I know, he might not be reading your blog. I hope someone directs him here. We are saying exactly what he has been saying all these years here.

    “We have thousands of manuscripts”
    Dr. James White

    And so what?
    Does that makes it true?
    Absolutely No Sir

    “We have first century manuscripts”
    Dr. James White

    And so what?
    Does that makes it true?

    Big No Sir.

    Use your intellect.

    Thanks

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Yes, some of his debates

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  4. silly man lol.

    Btw im having an ongoing debate with Michael Licona on Bart Ehrman’s facebook:

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  5. Paul

    Yourself and Licona? or Bart and Licona?

    The will discredit anything. Meanwhile their Gospels is full of untruths.

    Licona and Elaine Pagel on the Gospel of Thomas
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvlBxXH0yY8

    Thanks

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  6. He can’t. I will appreciate it, if you can mail me the transcript or snippets(if you have them) for learning purposes. He wants to discredit the Gospel of Thomas above and Dr. Elaine tells him that the Gospel of Thomas is early and even if it is late, it does not mean it does not contain truths. Paul of Tarsus never met Jesus and wrote everything by himself so many years after Jesus and Christians want us to believe him, but just to discredit anything.

    Thanks

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  7. JAMES WHITE is not some Joe Shamoun. He knows his Bible Manuscripts, he’s actually been to museums to see manuscripts – he went to Ireland (think he went up to Manchester too) and he even has ties with Bible manuscripts printed on them. This guy is a serious skolar.

    Is there a video of dR James White saying he has some first century manuscipts? Is it possible the Hadith skolar dR James White, has found some parchment in his basement that he carbon dated himself?

    And what was this fuss amongst Christian apologists about a Manuscript of Mark which they believe is from the 1st century… is this true or did they just make that up, or did the Christians just make those optimistic claims because they are desperate? I think I heard a Joke Smith, or is it Jay, talking about some find they are carefully extracting from a tomb or something (it’s weird where these boys go to find their manuscripts, one can imagine these trips to find ‘NT’ manuscripts are similar to scenes from an Indiana Jones movie or clips from the Aussie Steve Irwin’s wildlife adventure show)

    I’m telling you now, I was shocked when I found out from a conservative scholar that they found/find many of their manuscripts in rubbish dumps. I can picture these guys rummaging through ancient rubbish heaps looking for scraps or manuscripts so they can reconstruct something they call a ‘New Testament’ – something an increasing number of them are losing confidence in.

    If any Christian is reading this, please THINK. Do you really think you should be rummaging through ancient rubbish heaps and finding scraps of paper and then claiming those writings to be ‘inspired’ if they are older than your existing manuscripts??? Use your brains.

    Oh and instead of bombing the Middle East why don’t you not give money to everybody living there so they can check their basements and dig up their gardens because they may well be able to find some manuscripts for you boys and girls.Or perhaps they bomb the M.E because they don’t want anybody to find any further manuscripts because they are in a state of panic thinking another section of their NT will be downgraded to possible forgery status including the first part of the ‘Gospel’ of ‘John’

    I’m surprised James is not asking for cash to fund a trip out to Egypt or wherever to hunt for some manuscripts. Why hasn’t that guy not set up a team of hardy fellas to find some ‘NT’ papyri. I’m sure he’d be able to get a few volunteers with a varied set of skills that would be useful for this expedition; Shoebat and Kamal Saleem, those boys are good at digging tunnels and useful if anything needs to be blown up,that Anis Shorosh fella is skilled in burning things and the medical doctor Nabeel would be useful in case anybody gets injured in this daring mission while Wood as an enforcer type of character just in case they encounter a bunch of half naked natives running around with spears and Shamoun would be useful to supply the hot air so they can get a hot air balloon set up to escape with the scraps of papyri (whatever happened to hot air balloons, they don’t feature in movies any more!).

    James is clearly slacking. Tell Dr Shabir to stop debating him so he can concentrate on this expedition. I would consider throwing a fiver down…a fiver for the potential to see another bit of something called a ‘NT’ to be proven to be a forgery is a fiver well spent.

    OK, I’m out., was bored at the office and this little message kept me amused for a bit. Sad, very sad. A bar of snickers and a mug of cheap coffee will keep me entertained for the time being. Us simple folk.

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  8. ys “… and he even has ties with Bible manuscripts printed on them.” Lol. Yes indeed. What would you call the hot air balloon expedition? James Python’s flying circus? Southern baptist magical mystery tour? I wouldn’t like to be around those experts though as long as Wood has his hammer with him …

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  9. @Burhanuddin1

    Lol . James Python’s Flying Circus. Bit of a mouthful though so maybe give it an acronym of JPFC (sounds like a fried chicken shop).

    However, there has to be some independent verification of these finds – you don’t want any old Joe Shamoun in their gang using a ‘lying pen of the scribes’ and writing some Kone Greek in their best handwriting. Considering the lack of honesty levels in that gang I would highly suggest an independent verifyer on board the balloon so it’s got to be somebody who has a shield and a set of armour at home.

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  10. Dr. White has never said that we have first century NT manuscripts. He even cautioned some who are claiming (Dan Wallace and Craig Evans have reported this) a first century manuscript of Mark was found (in a mummy mask) – Dr. White said that they should wait until it has been thoroughly investigated by many scholars of manuscript evidence. It has still not come out officially as confirmed, it is still under study.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Summary of Dan Wallace and Craig Evans comments.

    www dot dennyburk dot com/first-century-copy-of-the-marks-gospel-discovered-wallaces-claim-to-ehrman-vindicated/

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    • Ken you claimed:

      ‘This makes perfect sense, because for the first 312 some odd years (off and on), the church and Christians were persecuted, and the Romans burned many of the earliest manuscripts.’

      In fact Christians have been making inflated and fictitious claims about alleged persecution for a very long time. For a recent expose see:

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  12. I’m telling you now, I was shocked when I found out from a conservative scholar that they found/find many of their manuscripts in rubbish dumps.

    This makes perfect sense, because for the first 312 some odd years (off and on), the church and Christians were persecuted, and the Romans burned many of the earliest manuscripts. You didn’t know that?

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  13. @Ken

    Is that some common knowledge that the pastors shout from the pulpit? Do all Trinitarians know this? It’s in Chuck Hill’s book:

    http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=rubbish+heaps

    Wasn’t the Gosepl of Thomas found in a grave? Weren’t the Dead Sea Scrolls found in caves?

    Is this just the case with ‘NT’ books?

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  14. The Dead Sea Scrolls were found in jars of the Qumran community that were protected in the caves – the very opposite of a “rubbish heap”.

    The so caled “Gospel of Thomas” is Gnostic, and late, not written by Thomas, and being a heretical work, but it seems to have also been protected by the group of Gnostics by putting in a sealed earthenware jar in Nag Hammadi, Egypt. ( I have not heard or read that it was found in a grave.)

    “Nag Hammadi is best known for being the site where local farmers found a sealed earthenware jar containing thirteen leather-bound papyrus codices, together with pages torn from another book, in December 1945.”

    Chuck Hill’s book is a good book. Your sincere question has been answered based on history.

    The Qur’an manuscripts had the opposite context – the power of the sword and government to protect it, as Islam was a government – state power. The NT survived despite persecution and burning of manuscripts by the Romans.

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  15. Candida Moss’ work is an exaggeration of the exaggerations of Christian persecution. That is why I was careful to write “off and on”. Moss even admits that Nero, Decius, and Diocletian and Galerius persecuted the church and Christians, and that Christians were killed in local persecutions under the Caesars Domitian, Trajan, Marcus Arelius, Valerian, Septimus Serverus, etc. She is right to point out that there have been exaggerations, but even she admits that Christians were sometimes persecuted. Here is a more balanced view by another scholar of early Christianity – Paul Maier.

    www dot equip dot org/article/the-myth-of-persecution-a-provocative-title-an-overdone-thesis/

    What Moss is saying is that the persecution was not constant all the time from 33 AD to 312 AD, and that there are stories of exaggeration of some of the martyrdoms. Everyone knows that.

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  16. @Ken

    Yes, repeating what I’m saying and felshing it all out is fine Ken but understand my point.

    My point is, you have all these Non NT books that are NOT found in rubbish heaps yet NT books are being found in rubbish heaps. Your excuse is they were being persecuted, well couldn’t they not have hid their books rather than get rid of them in the rubbish? Weren’t there any caves or places to bury them in order to ‘hide’ them?

    It seems odd that they put them in the rubbish, don;t you not think?

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  17. @Ken

    You wrote:

    What Moss is saying is that the persecution was not constant all the time from 33 AD to 312 AD, and that there are stories of exaggeration of some of the martyrdoms. Everyone knows that.

    You say ‘everyone knows that’. You have a habit of speaking for everybody, don’t you? First everybody knows NT manuscripts are being found in rubbish heaps and now this.

    Are these they type of things pastors say every week to ensure it’s common knowledge? Do they prepare Trinitarians for trivia questions?

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  18. Ken Temple “This makes perfect sense, because for the first 312 some odd years (off and on), the church and Christians were persecuted, and the Romans burned many of the earliest manuscripts. You didn’t know that?”

    As soon as Christians were in power they persecuted everyone else – Jews, Heretics, Gentiles.

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  19. Ken Temple “The so caled “Gospel of Thomas” is Gnostic, and late, not written by Thomas, and being a heretical work, but it seems to have also been protected by the group of Gnostics by putting in a sealed earthenware jar in Nag Hammadi, Egypt.” They did not consider themselves “heretic” or “gnostic”. They were just Christians who did not believe what their later “catholic” prosecutors believed. Why did they hide their scriptures? Most probably because they were oppressed and prosecuted by their “orthodox” enemies.

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  20. Saying 114 of the Gospel of Thomas is enough to show the work is heretical and false.

    (114) Simon Peter said to them, “Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life.” Jesus said, “See, I am going to attract her to make her male so that she too might become a living spirit that resembles you males. For every female (element) that makes itself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    Yes, I know they didn’t consider themselves heretical.

    Irenaeus around 180-200 AD mentions these false writings and the Gnostics as heretics, but they did not persecute them, as they had no power of the sword or state – but they could excommunicate them out of the church.

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  21. The Gnostics were not Christians.

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  22. they thought they were just as you think your are.

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  23. Gnostics and Docetics did not believe in the humanity of Jesus, and that is also against what Islam teaches, so doctrinally, on that issue, the humanity of Jesus, Islam and orthodox Islam agrees.

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  24. So, me and you agree with each other on that, and are closer than Gnostics. Islam would condemn Gnosticism also.

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  25. most evangelicals in practice don’t believe in the humanity of Jesus either…

    Liked by 1 person

  26. you and I – better English

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  27. Burhanuddin1

    Thank and perfectly said. This is the point I always argue with Christians. During Jesus time and after, there were a lot of stories about him circulating including all gospels be it John, epistle of Banabas, Thomas, Mark, Luke, Sherpared Hermas etc. The early Fathers according to Christians selected the ones they want and canonized it. Others also selected the ones they want i.e. Gospel of Thomas and the rest. These Christians i.e. Ken Temple, James White, Jay Smith, Mike Licona etc. will call the other Christians “heretics” and “gnostics” because they did chose other gospels and that is very bad and sad in my view.

    They argue that the gospel they do not like is late and there are Christians scholars like Elaine Pagel and others who say the gospels are not late but ancient like the canonical ones and must be added to the Bible

    Here is the exchange, the sound is not clear but you can hear Mike Licona and Elaine Pagel

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvlBxXH0yY8&list=PL4N6_6qqvGa6Oar8wxcp40CTJHXj_Xa7d

    If your NT gospels were not selected by your Church Fathers, why do you call them Canonized. Others have selected the Gospel of Thomas and the rest and were using them, so all the gospels i.e. the Canonized and non Canonized ones were in circulation and could contain truths and lies. It is now left with ones intellect to see the consistent God of Abraham from the first and original word of God in the Torah that clearly state on so many occasions that God is One, Only and Alone

    Actually, this comment is targeted to Christians

    Thanks

    Like

  28. Yes, all Evangelicals affirm the humanity of Jesus.

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  29. ok, Muslim scholars 100 % would condemn the Gnostics and Docetics of early Christianity.

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  30. how do you know they would? Have you done a survey?

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  31. Irenaeus and Tertullian listed and condemned many (probably most, if not all of the ones that have been found) of the heretical gospels, Gnostic gospels and writings (they mentioned many of the ones that modern news reports and the DaVinci Code fame and the liberal Elaine Pagels try to make a big deal out of – like Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas, Mary Magdalene, etc.), and they wrote around 180-220 AD, and did not have power or force or the sword – only excommunication from attending and being a member of a church.

    It is true that after Theodosius of 380 – 392 AD – when Christianity was declared the state religion – THEN, they outlawed paganism, idolatry, pagan temples were destroyed, and heresies, and sometimes were too harsh against heretics and Jews – especially later under Justinian (537-565 AD) and Hericlius (610-641 AD).

    It was always a mistake to unify the state government with the church as Theodosius did, and what Islam has always been, both a religion and a state government.

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  32. Since the Gnostics and Docetics did not believe that Jesus had a real body, He was like a ghost, a phantom – I am sure that all Islamic orthodox scholars would condemn the Gnostics and Docetics also. As the Qur’an says about Jesus and Mary, “they ate their daily food”, etc. (Surah 5:72-75)

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  33. you are very knowledgeable about Islam Ken.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. oh dear Ken, so God made a big mistake with Israel then!

    No; but it was temporary.

    Hebrews 8-10 – the New Covenant is a better Covenant than the Old covenant.

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    • oh so God made a temporary big mistake. I see. Thanks for the clarification.

      (“It was always a mistake to unify the state government with the church as Theodosius did, and what Islam has always been, both a religion and a state government”).

      Liked by 1 person

  35. “Always” meaning always in the church / new covenant age.

    Of course it was right for Biblical Israel from Moses to 70 AD.

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  36. Licona demolished Elaine Pagels arguments. Never understood how she gets so much press and promoted Gnostic gospels like Thomas so much, seeing as how “anti- woman” they are.

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  37. The Qur’an SHOULD have manuscripts closer to it’s original, since it had the state government and power of the Sword to protect it. Whereas Christianity did not and the Romans burned many manuscripts off and on over that 300 year period.

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  38. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly.

    Matthew 5:17-18

    “until all is accomplished”

    “it is finished / accomplished” – John 19:30

    “For what the law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:3-4

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    • Jesus commanded his disciples to obey the law – he did not come abolish it. Btw quoting a dude who never met Jesus is somewhat irrelevant.

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  39. John was eyewitness of the cross, a disciple, and writer of 4th gospel.

    Paul met Jesus personally on the Damascus road – Acts 9, 22, 26 – he tells of his experience in those 3 chapters. He was an apostle of Jesus Christ and wrote 13 letters that are all inspired by God – “God-breathed” – 2 Tim. 3:16.

    Paul was confirmed by Peter, John, and James as a true apostle – Galatians 1:18-19; 2:7-10.

    So, Romans and other NT passages are not irrelevant at all.

    Muhammad came 600 years later, had an individual dream and claim of one man and no other apostles or prophets or eyewitnesses to confirm his claim.

    Woe to those who write Scripture and claim, “this is from God”.

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  40. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Irenaeus and Tertullian listed and condemned many (probably most, if not all of the ones that have been found) of the heretical gospels, Gnostic gospels and writings (they mentioned many of the ones that modern news reports and the DaVinci Code fame and the liberal Elaine Pagels try to make a big deal out of – like Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas, Mary Magdalene, etc.), and they wrote around 180-220 AD, and did not have power or force or the sword – only excommunication from attending and being a member of a church.

    I say;
    How do you know Irenaeus and Tertullian are not lying? They were not the disciples of Jesus and so has no authority to condemn other gospels.

    You said;
    Saying 114 of the Gospel of Thomas is enough to show the work is heretical and false.

    (114) Simon Peter said to them, “Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life.” Jesus said, “See, I am going to attract her to make her male so that she too might become a living spirit that resembles you males. For every female (element) that makes itself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    I say;
    Oh my dear!!! and good friend Ken, you believed Jesus became God and a spirit of God overcome Mary and Jesus was born, just to downgrade the gospel of Thomas for saying Jesus(your God and the one you worship Ken) cannot attract Mary and make her male living spirit?

    You believe Jesus is both Jesus and Man at the same time but just to criticize someone who believe Jesus can attract Mary to become a male living spirit.

    Was Jesus himself not male? God? Why was Jesus not a female? God?

    You said;
    It is true that after Theodosius of 380 – 392 AD – when Christianity was declared the state religion – THEN, they outlawed paganism, idolatry, pagan temples were destroyed, and heresies, and sometimes were too harsh against heretics and Jews – especially later under Justinian (537-565 AD) and Hericlius (610-641 AD).

    It was always a mistake to unify the state government with the church as Theodosius did, and what Islam has always been, both a religion and a state government.

    I say;
    Emperor Constantine persecuted the Arians and destroyed their manuscripts. The Crusaders persecuted Muslims in Spain, Jerusalem and destroyed Muslim civilization and libraries. Especially in Spain were there was a big Muslim library with many Muslim manuscripts and literature. That is not good. Muslims did not destroy any library and that is why you keep getting some of your manuscripts from Muslim Majority countries like Egypt and the Middle East. Muslims are commanded not to destroy non combatants, infrastructure, trees, farms etc. during and after war but Christians do not have such commands.

    Thanks

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  41. Galatians is the ealiest writing also – around 48-49 AD. (Maybe Mark and James were written around the same time) So John and Peter, who were eyewitnesses and disciples of Jesus affirmed the apostle Paul, as did James, the Lord Jesus’ half-brother. And the Qur’an says the disciples of Jesus were true believers in God, full of integrity, helpers of Allah (God), surrended to God, etc. Surah 3:52; 61:14. To speak against these disciples is to speak against the Qur’an.

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  42. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Since the Gnostics and Docetics did not believe that Jesus had a real body, He was like a ghost, a phantom – I am sure that all Islamic orthodox scholars would condemn the Gnostics and Docetics also. As the Qur’an says about Jesus and Mary, “they ate their daily food”, etc. (Surah 5:72-75)

    I say;
    You believed apart from the real body Jesus had, he had a non-body(God) in addition, but to condemn someone who believed he does not have a real body? I bet Mr. Ken all the gospels including yours is the same and does not make sense. After Jesus, so many theories about him was produced and they are all including yours Mr. Ken false. Don’t you see how the gospel of Thomas sounded like your theology?

    The Quran is here to correct you and so listen to what the Quran said and come back the original consistent teaching of One, Only and Alone God of the Torah and forget all these gospels because they sound similar and the same.

    Jesus is God-Man Ken Temple

    Jesus does not have real body-Gospel of Thomas

    Conclusion: Therefore is Jesus is God and can do whatever he wants and can become God and man then as per the Gospel of Thomas too, Jesus is God and can do whatever he wants and can become God-Man without a real body.

    Thanks.

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  43. Paul claimed he had a “vision” of Jesus – his word. There are lots of people who have had visions of Jesus throughout history. And of Mary his Mother.

    Jesus taught his disciples to obey the law – a law which taught that adulterers should be killed, and Jesus taught that men who marry their wives and their mothers should be burnt to death. You agree with Jesus?

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  44. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Galatians is the ealiest writing also – around 48-49 AD. (Maybe Mark and James were written around the same time) So John and Peter, who were eyewitnesses and disciples of Jesus affirmed the apostle Paul, as did James, the Lord Jesus’ half-brother. And the Qur’an says the disciples of Jesus were true believers in God, full of integrity, helpers of Allah (God), surrended to God, etc. Surah 3:52; 61:14. To speak against these disciples is to speak against the Qur’an.

    I say;
    Who wrote Galatians? Paul of Tarsus?
    I can write my own gospel and said I met Jesus and put my interactions with James, the brother of Jesus to affirm me as an apostle.

    If I do that, I might be right is my message is consistent with what Jesus said i.e. “My God and your God” which means Jesus has a God and Jesus never said he came to die any body’s sin or abolish any laws.

    I will be a liar if I say Jesus abolished the law without meeting the law and writing my own story.

    Thanks.

    Like

  45. correction

    I ( Paul of Tarsus) will be a liar if I say Jesus abolished the law without meeting the Jesus and writing my own story.

    Thanks.

    Like

  46. The eyewitnesses / disciples / apostles of Jesus confirmed Paul and his vision and calling of Jesus.
    Muhammad had no other apostles to approve of him. His claim was a subjective claim like the ones about Mary and others later.

    Of course the law of Israel was in force until 70 AD, when God Himself destroyed the temple by bringing the Romans to destroy it, as predicted by Jesus in Matthew 23:36-24:3. (Jesus predicted it 40 years earlier, in 30 AD.)

    Like

  47. Ken Temple

    Do not think the earlier the manuscript the truth it contains. My friend that is not how a philosopher like you and Dr. James White should think. That is the main point of this post and was highlighted by Bart Erhman. The discovery of this Quran manuscript to be from the time of Prophet Mohammed does not mean Islam is true. It only affirms what Muslims are always saying and that is they Quran means recitation and was memorized and will always be the same and the written ones are there to augment the ones in memory.

    So, do not tell me Galatians is is the earliest writing also – around 48-49 AD, and so its contents are true. It does not sound philosophical at all. Dr. James White must stop that philosophical bankruptcy.

    The only thing left apart from manuscripts is common sense, intellect and truth, to follow the Only One and Alone God of Abraham as is always repeated in the Torah, but not what somebody who did not meet Jesus wrote by himself to contradict himself i.e. God is immortal but God died.

    Thanks

    Like

  48. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Gnostics and Docetics did not believe in the humanity of Jesus, and that is also against what Islam teaches, so doctrinally, on that issue, the humanity of Jesus, Islam and orthodox Islam agrees.

    I say;
    Do you think you are any different than them? According to Torah, and Islam you all the same. There is nothing different in believing Jesus is God and Jesus does not have body. After all God does not have body. So, you are all the same. Birds of the same feathers flock together. These gospels were in circulation after Jesus and everybody is grabbing the ones he likes, hence different gospels that does not make sense but with some truth and lies in all of them. They mixed the true Jesus stories and lies.

    That is why the Quran said, there is corruptions in the old scriptures by men intentionally for some small gain but He is going to protect His last Message(Quran(The recitation)) in the form of recitation and reading allowed to be committed into memory from generation to generations to pass on with the written one to augment the memorization and it will not be destroyed at till the day of judgement. Jay Smith, Nabil Quraish, David Wood, Sam Shamoun with all their lies could not destroy it.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Ken Temple “The Gnostics were not Christians.” Of course they were. They were an integral part, at times probably even the majority, of what comprised ancient “Christianity”. You should face up to reality.

    Jesus was no Christian. He was a Jew under the law. His God was no triune being.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Ken Temple “… I am sure that all Islamic orthodox scholars would condemn the Gnostics and Docetics also.”

    No reasonable Muslim scholar would deny that “Gnostics” were a brand of Christianity amongst many others. Unless they have ideological faith-based reasons like yourself that force you to deny reality.

    Like

  51. Ken why would Jesus command his disciples to obey all the Law? Why would Paul teach that Jesus had abolished the Law? Who is telling the truth?

    Like

  52. Ken Temple “… on that issue, the humanity of Jesus, Islam and orthodox Islam agrees.” I think you probably meant “Islam and orthodox Christianity” agree?
    If that’s the case, you are presenting a fallacious argument big time.

    Muslims believe Jesus was a human person, which is consistent with everything we know about a universe that makes sense and a God who doesn’t play games – like “discover my true identity”.
    Have you ever noticed that you are expected to “discover” God is three persons? Why is this three person being so elusive about His true identity?

    Liked by 1 person

  53. Actually, Ken, trinitarianism is a lot like (some) gnosticisms. Only the man-part dies, and the divine part gets away.

    Like

  54. Paul Williams wrote:
    Why would Paul teach that Jesus had abolished the Law?

    The apostle Paul did not teach that Jesus had abolished the law; if you read and study Ephesians 2:11-22 more carefully, it was the enmity / hostility and the division created between Jews and Gentiles aspects of the law that was nullified/abolished, not the law itself. The moral law was not abolished; but the ceremonial and civil laws of Israel that were fulfilled and nullified; those laws that created separated and hostility between Jews and Gentiles were nullified and set aside.

    But the Lord did not abolish the moral law. We already discussed this at length at your other blogs, but you refused to read or study the entire paragraph to grasp what the author is really saying. You take a phrase out of context.

    The word that is sometimes translated “abolished” in Ephesians 2:15 is katargeo, καταργεω, which means “nullify”, “render ineffective”, “render powerless”. This is a different Greek word that the one used in Matthew 5:17, “Do not think I came to abolish the law”, etc. (Katalo / καταλυω)

    It’s a beautiful passage, that speaks of our unity in Christ with all cultures and that Christ broke down cultural barriers so that different cultures would learn to love each other and accept each other in the church, and get rid of their racial and cultural prejudices, hatred and pride.

    Jesus Al Masih is the key to peace, because He is our peace. (verse 14)

    Jews and Palestinian Arabs love each other when they repent and come to Christ and become new creatures in Christ, filled with the Holy Spirit. But as long as hold on to their cultural barriers and rules and laws that separate each other from one another, there is enmity, hatred, pride.

    Ephesians 2:11-22

    11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—

    12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

    13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the arrier of the dividing wall,

    15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

    16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

    17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;

    18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

    19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

    20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

    21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

    22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

    Like

    • Ken your own translation of Paul above says that, in Paul’s view, Jesus abolished the Law! Read it again:

      15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

      Like

  55. Burhanuddin1 wrote:

    I think you probably meant “Islam and orthodox Christianity” agree?

    Yes; I meant that Islam and orthodox Christian doctrine agree that Jesus was fully human and we disagree with the Gnostics and Docetics.
    Thanks for catching that.

    Like

  56. Ken Temple, I do not agree with you. I believe Jesus was a human person. Do you?
    Your walking contradiction two-beings-true-false Jesus comes in handy, you can always cherry-pick the Jesus that suits your purposes best.

    On basis of your two-beings-true-false Jesus I could argue Muslims and Christians agree Jesus did not die, after all only the human nature died, the divine person and divine nature did not die. How would you like that?

    And if I put a bit of preaching as icing on top of the cake I want to eat and keep at the same time? How would you like that? You wouldn’t like that, would you?
    But that’s exactly the strategy you apply towards Muslims again and again.

    Btw there were Gnostic Christians who believed Jesus was actually fully human. I think your trinitarian faith is a lot like this sort of gnosticism. Only the man-part dies, and the divine part gets away.

    Like

  57. Paul, you have to study the whole paragraph more deeply, and how is harmonizes with other passages. The moral law was not abolished, but the ceremonial, food, feasts, Sabbath day, new moon laws, and civil laws were set aside/nullified.

    The same author said, “The law is holy, good, and righteousness” – Romans 7:12
    and 1 Timothy 1:8-11 – how the law and gospel work together.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ken your elaborate system of classification was not shared by the prophets or by Jesus or by Paul. It comes from Calvin (and others).

      Jesus told his disciples to obey all the law (all 613 commandments) without exception – including commands to execute adulterers and burn people to death for certain crimes:

      ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.’

      note – even the smallest commandment should be obeyed. To follow Jesus in the Kingdom of God requires Torah observation.

      Towards the end of his ministry, Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practise what they teach.’

      and

      ‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practised without neglecting the others.’

      So Jesus makes no man-made artificial distinctions about ‘three parts’ of the law as you do. All the commands are to be carefully obeyed. No exceptions.

      Yet Paul claims in Ephesians 2:15 (New Revised Standard Version),

      ‘He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, so that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace.’!!!

      So Jesus and Paul clearly did not agree about the Law, and in fact disagreed on other matters to do with sin, salvation and God.

      They each represent different religions.

      Like

  58. Of course you know all that Paul, and how Christians understand and harmonize the verses with the facts that the Mosaic law had three parts – 1. The moral law, which never changes as God’s standard, 2. the ceremonial, food and feast and Sabbath day laws, and 3. The civil laws that pertain to the state of Biblical Israel, which is no more in existence. The modern state of Israel is not the same as the Biblical one, which ended in 70 AD.

    But you already knew this basis stuff; you were probably taught this at the Evangelical church you went to, or if you were not taught it, you have read about it before, I would assume.

    Like

  59. No Paul; the 3 part distinction of the law is within the NT itself:

    1. Food laws are nullified/ set aside – Mark 7:19 (Jesus did that), Acts chapters 10-11
    2. The temple sacrifices and all that related to those things in the temple, priests, etc. is fulfilled in Christ’s final sacrifice. (Hebrews chapters 8, 9, 10)
    3. The requirement of circumcision for Gentiles (non-Jews) is set aside – the book of Galatians, Acts chapter 15
    4. The new moons and feast days – Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:16-17
    5. Since the church did not punish people and was not a theocracy, they excommunicated people (Matthew 18:15-20; 1 Corinthians chapter 5; Titus 3:10; 2 Thess. 3:10-14) – the church did not and was never suppossed to execute or physically punish people. They could “kick them out” and formally excommunicate them and withhold the Lord’s supper from them and not allow them in to church, but they were not to punish or execute.
    6. Since Israel and the theocracy ended in 70 AD (see Jesus’ teaching in the parable in Matthew chapter 21 – “the kingdom of God will taken away from you (Pharisees and Jewish leaders – verse 45) and given to a nation that produces the fruit of it.” Matthew 21:43 The church is a “nation” made up of all nations – Revelation 5:9; 7:9 – some from every tribe, nation, people, and language have been purchased by the blood of the lamb and will be worshiping the Lord with white robes of righteousness that were washed in the blood of the lamb. (i.e., they believed in Jesus Christ and His atoning death on the cross – Romans 3:24-26)
    see also Acts 1:6-8 – Jesus had taken the kingdom away from Israel.
    So, it did not start with Calvin, but is clearly recognizable within the pages of the inspired text of the New Testatment.

    The apostle Paul agreed with Jesus and Jesus inspired the apostle to write his 13 letters, which are “God-breathed”.

    Like

  60. “The temple sacrifices and all that related to those things in the temple, priests, etc. is fulfilled in Christ’s final sacrifice”

    That’s not what the Jerusalem Church under James the Just (!) believed and practiced. See Acts 21.

    Like

  61. Ken Temple: “Yes; I meant that Islam and orthodox Christian doctrine agree that Jesus was fully human ….”

    Here you have a “god-breathed” confirmation that Muslims are right:

    “This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God.” 1 John 4:2

    Like

  62. Ken you say “Food laws are nullified/ set aside – Mark 7:19 (Jesus did that)”

    indeed Mark does say that, but Matthew (who used Mark in writing his own gospel according to the consensus of NT scholars) disagreed, and eliminated this verse. Matthew’s Jesus clearly teaches that ALL the Law (613 commandments) is in force for disciples in the Kingdom of God:

    ‘Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.’

    Paul had a radically different view of the matter. This proves he was not an authentic follower of the Christ he never met. Contradicting Jesus Paul taught that Jesus abolished the law:

    ‘…has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, so that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace.’

    You believe “the church did not and was never suppossed [sic] to execute or physically punish people”

    Jesus did not come to found a church or a new religion. He came to teach moral renewal and complete Torah observance through the prism of loving God and neighbour.

    He chastised the Pharisees for putting their man-made traditions in the place of God’s clear command to execute the wrongdoer:

    And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, “Honour your father and your mother,” and, “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.” 5 But you say that whoever tells father or mother, “Whatever support you might have had from me is given to God”, then that person need not honour the father. 6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you make void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites!

    Matthew 15

    Like

  63. Jesus did not come to found a church or a new religion.

    Not a new religion, but the fulfillment of the old covenant;

    and Jesus certainly did speak of “building His Church” –

    Matthew 16:16-18; “I will build My Church” –

    chapter 18:15-20 – in the very gospel that you are trying to say that says nothing about the church, etc. – the gospel of Matthew.

    Mark has those laws in his parallel passage also – Mark 7:9-13

    9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

    Your argumentation fails, because the truth is that those laws were in force for Israel as long as the theocracy was in existence, but the theocracy of Israel was temporary, and Christ fulfilled the law; and the New Covenant is churches in all nations and cultures.

    Like

  64. James White in his recently Dividing Line program (yesterday, July 28) addresses the new Qur’an manuscript find, Bart Ehrman, and the fig tree issue, with Muslim views and some from one of his debates with Shabir Ally. see www dot aomin dot org – “The Birmingham Qur’an, Bart Ehrman, Equal Scales, and the Biblical Text of the London Confession”

    Just as Dr. White cautioned the Christians on the “Green project” (the find of maybe / allegedly a first century manuscript of Mark), and he repeats that caution and even rebuked Jay Smith for using things in his debate with Shabir Ally that had not been published yet, he also cautioned on the Qur’an manuscript, that the age of the vellum (thin animal skin) is not the most important indication, but the age of the ink – which shows when it was written. Someone can write some text on an old animal skin that is 100 years old, but the text can be 100 years younger. He goes over other issues also – comparison of the text with others, etc.

    Like

    • there is good reason to think that the folios were made to order. A large number of animals would have been slaughtered for this particular Qur’an (Birmingham has just 2 leaves from a Quran kept in The Bibliothèque nationale de France, Paris). The skins would not have been kept for years till some future use, because they are organic material liable to degrade quite quickly. I am told by a specialist doing PhD in this area that fungus would have grown on the skins soon after they made so they would have needed to be treated and written on contemporaneously with their creation. Paleographical studies had already determined that the folios were very early, but only RCD determined just how ancient they really were.

      Liked by 1 person

  65. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Just as Dr. White cautioned the Christians on the “Green project” (the find of maybe / allegedly a first century manuscript of Mark), and he repeats that caution and even rebuked Jay Smith for using things in his debate with Shabir Ally that had not been published yet, he also cautioned on the Qur’an manuscript, that the age of the vellum (thin animal skin) is not the most important indication, but the age of the ink – which shows when it was written. Someone can write some text on an old animal skin that is 100 years old, but the text can be 100 years younger. He goes over other issues also – comparison of the text with others, etc.

    I say;
    Is it not intellectual and philosophical bankruptcy for a doctor of philosophy and or religion to think that a writing material will be produced and not used but for the next 100 years?

    There might have been a better thin animal skins or better writing materials to be used by the next 100 years than an old dilapidated thin animal skin. Ken Temple, will you use Telegram or telefax to send your message today or email, twitter, whatsup, imo, etc.

    Will you by a CD player or a DVD player that plays a lot of codecs? Will write on an 100 years paper and not a new A4 sheets from staples or bestbuy stores?

    Will you write or print your Church summons on a dilapidated paper produced in the 1900s and ignore the newly and freshly produced A4 paper from staples or bestbuy stores?

    It does not make sense for an intellectual or a philosopher to start thinking this way and it will amount to intellectual bankruptcy.

    Why have you not question this with regards to new testament materials? but to use Paul Galatians to argue with Muslims. Did you questioned the year of the ink used to write Galatians? as an early documents to make it true.

    Any way, the early a document does not means it is the truths and the later the documents does not means it contains lies.

    When it comes to the religion of Abraham, it was stated clearly in the Torah which is the first manuscript whether it contains lies and truths is another matter, but it clearly states all over that God is One, Only and Alone.

    Therefore any writing whether old or new that claims God is 3 Persons/persons in 1 is a lie.

    Why?

    Because every Person/person is a Being/being but God is Only, Alone and One divine Being according to the Torah the first manuscript of God. God is not 3 Persons/persons that will qualify every Person/person to a being and an entity by himself.

    It is also a lie to say, the Persons/persons of Christians are in communication from eternity. What a lie. Jesus proved them wrong by saying he does not know the end date, which means it is a lie that he is in communication with the other person of the Trinity from eternity.

    KEN TEMPLE. WHAT A LIE? JESUS WAS NOT IN COMMUNICATION WITH THE OTHER PERSONS OF TRINITY BECAUSE HE DOES NOT KNOW THE END DATE, BUT THE OTHER KN OWS AND SO THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. The Father who knows the date is the Only One, Alone and the true God of Abraham as the Torah said. Come to Islam immediately and stop following Paul of Tarsus and worshiping a man-Jesus before it is too late for you. You have been interacting with Muslims for years and learnt some Islam and you know the truth. If you do not come to Islam, God will never forgive you.

    You told me, Jesus did not know the date, because he was on earth. My good Good!!! Did Jesus not raise the dead and heal people and walk on water while on earth? And he switched between his God and Man? |And you said he did so because he is God. What then prevents him from telling us the date? Another big lie Mr. Ken.

    If Jesus was God and was able to do some miracles to prove his was God, what he could have said about the end days is “I (Jesus) will not provide the end days now” because he is God and always in communications with the other persons from eternity so he(Jesus) must know the date by force. He cannot decide to forget what he already knew and besides God does not forge because he did not forget how to raise the dead, so he should not forget the date.

    JESUS SAID HE DOES NOT KNOW THE DATE BUT SOMEONE OTHER THAN HIM KNOWS. WHAT GOD IS THAT THAT CAN HEAL AND RAISE THE DEAD ON EARTH BUT DOES NOT KNOW THE END DATE ON EARTH?

    Jesus said, he does not know the date. God of Abraham Who is One, Only and Alone according to Torah obviously knows the date as Jesus himself said.

    Muslims are True as they God the last message that is in conformity with God is One, Only and Alone

    Some Muslims are not amazed by the new Quran because they knew God has protected his final message in memory from Angel Gabriel, to our prophet and to disciples and followers from generation to generation till today.

    Proof
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UfEsO2nBS0

    Thanks

    Liked by 1 person

  66. Ken, tell me where Jesus says that his teaching at the end of his ministry in Matthew:

    ‘Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.’

    was “abolished” as Paul claimed? When did Jesus say – ‘despite what i have been teaching you everything has changed – you can eat pork now?”

    **

    Even though Jesus chastised the Pharisees for putting their man-made traditions in the place of God’s clear command to execute the wrongdoer:

    And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, “Honour your father and your mother,” and, “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.” 5 But you say that whoever tells father or mother, “Whatever support you might have had from me is given to God”, then that person need not honour the father. 6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you make void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites!

    when did Jesus say, ‘despite what i have been teaching you everything has changed – you must not execute anyone now?”

    Like

  67. there is good reason to think that the folios were made to order. A large number of animals would have been slaughtered for this particular Qur’an (Birmingham has just 2 leaves from a Quran kept in The Bibliothèque nationale de France, Paris). The skins would not have been kept for years till some future use, because they are organic material liable to degrade quite quickly. I am told by a specialist doing PhD in this area that fungus would have grown on the skins soon after they made so they would have needed to be treated and written on contemporaneously with their creation. Paleographical studies had already determined that the folios were very early, but only RCD determined just how ancient they really were.

    Paul W. – you made a good point above about the skins, etc.

    Dr. White points out that some animinal skins (vellum) were washed or scraped and used again. (Palimpsest manuscripts – like the Sa’ana manuscripts)

    The main point is to be cautious until more study and tests and analysis is done; consistency; and the same goes for the Green Project – the alleged gospel of Mark find from first century. Neither one has not been proven or established yet.

    Like

  68. Yes, Jesus Himself said that they could eat pork, and crab and lobster and catfish, etc. – in Mark 7:19 and Acts 10-11 (it is the Lord Jesus who gives Peter the vision)

    Jesus Himself inspired Galatians and Hebrews, etc.

    Jesus fulfilled the law by fully obeying it and then fulfilled it at the cross and resurrection, and set aside those ceremonial and food law aspects from the cross onward.

    Islam also a principle of abrogation – Surah 2:106; 16:101

    later revelation abrogates some earlier revelation.

    The new Testament passages and principles (about the fulfillment of ceremonial, food, feasts, circumcision, Sabbath Day, new moons, and some of the punishments) took those OT laws and were clearly fulfilled and abrogated by the New Covenant.

    Like

  69. again, it is the enmity of the law that was set aside – the condemnation of God’s law against sin for those who accept Christ as savior, and the enmity that set up barriers between cultures – as the whole paragraph teaches in Ephesians 2:11-22.

    But you are still under the enmity / Condemnation of the law against sin because you have not repented and turned to Christ, and you have rejected Isa Al Masih as your Lord and Savior from sin.

    Your pride, jealousy, anger, selfishness, lusts, etc. condemn you all without Isa Al Masih, the final sacrifice and ransom for sin. He was the fulfillment of the lambs and sacrifices of the OT – and the ram that God substituted for Abraham’s son – as the Qur’an even admits –

    “We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice” – Surah 37:107

    و فدینه بذبح عظیم

    You can only have peace with God by faith in Al Masih and His atonement on the cross, and in His resurrection power over sin, death, and the devil.
    John 14:27
    Romans 5:1
    Romans 3:24-26

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  70. If you accept the gospel of Matthew, (5:19 and parts of 15), you also have to accept the rest of chapters 5, 6, and 7 and the rest of 15 (15 – about sin in your heart and you cannot cleanse you sin by religious rituals; and in 5:22-30 Jesus says that anger and lust in your heart condemns you to hell.) you also have to accept all of it – the teaching on the church – Matthew 16 and 18, and the trials and crucifixion in chapter 26-27 and the resurrection in chapter 28 and the Great Commission, the baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – that the 3 persons of the Trinity are taught there.

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  71. I have already dealt with your Mark quote – it is surely significant that Matthew disagrees with Mark and deletes Mark 7:1.

    Furthemore, if Acts 10-11 is historical then that undermines your case as well. Peter in Acts has clearly never heard of this utterly novel idea of all food being declared clean – he would not have expressed his disbelief if Jesus had already taught him this.

    The odd idea that Jesus somehow inspired Hebrews and Galatians is far fetched and lacking in any evidence whatsoever.

    “Jesus fulfilled the law by fully obeying it and then fulfilled it at the cross and resurrection, and set aside those ceremonial and food law aspects from the cross onward.”

    But I asked you for some actual teaching from Jesus that says this. You have provided none.

    I on the other hand have cited Jesus’ teaching that for those who have entered the kingdom of Heaven, Torah observance is necessary:

    ‘Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.’

    Paul taught that some of these ‘least commandments’ are “abolished” thus contradicting Jesus flagrantly. Conclusion: Paul was a fraud.

    Like

  72. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Paul W. – you made a good point above about the skins, etc.

    Dr. White points out that some animinal skins (vellum) were washed or scraped and used again. (Palimpsest manuscripts – like the Sa’ana manuscripts)

    The main point is to be cautious until more study and tests and analysis is done; consistency; and the same goes for the Green Project – the alleged gospel of Mark find from first century. Neither one has not been proven or established yet.

    I say;
    This new “old Quran” manuscript has no any washed writings on it. The experts would have said so. They said so with regards to some of the Sa’ana manuscripts and it can be seen by the naked eve as well. This Birmingham new “old Quran” is not a Palismpsest manuscript. It has undergone rigorous tests before the final results was made public so Dr. James White must respect that. What Dr. James White always does is that, he will start by rebuking other Christians, so that he will sound credible and honest, but if you listen to him carefully before his speech, he will as well has his wise criticism of Islam.

    Jay Smith, Spencer etc. will come out unwisely to attack anything Islam, but Dr. James White does same but wisely. At least he is wiser than them, but they are all on the same boat criticizing anything Islam. They criticize the whole project unwisely and he wisely criticized or questioned the writings of the new “old Quran” but will not criticize of question Paul of Tarsus Galatians writings but will use it as an earliest document to preach to Muslims.

    Will Dr. James White write his just ended Dividing Line on an old dilapidated paper produced in 1925 or will save it on an a cloud based system on the internet as he did?

    There is no any studies to be done again on the Birmingham new “old Quran” for the expert did not just announced their findings without rigorously carrying out the desired process over and over again. There is nothing left Mr. Ken, except you must believe the expect and come to Islam as you keep preaching the older the manuscript the truth it contains by using Paul’s Galatians.

    Thanks

    Like

  73. Several times in the gospels the disciples did not understand what Jesus was saying, even after Jesus repeats it several times, so Peter’s initial response in Acts 10-11 does not mean Jesus did not teach what it says in Mark 7:19.

    All of the teaching of the NT is God-breathed, by the Trinity, the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And of course you know this is what Christians have always believed. So all of the NT is the teaching of Jesus. The apostle Paul was a great apostle of Jesus Christ.

    Like

    • The teaching is perfectly clear to me – I fail to see why a large group of Jesus’ followers would not have understood – it’s not rocket science. Peter in Acts suggests he has never heard this teaching before. If Jesus really had stated that Jews could eat pork he would have been declared an apostate from Judaism, but none of his enemies accused him of teaching that. Such an idea was unthinkable to the Jews! Plus, you have failed to explain why Matthew has Jesus teach the necessity of obeying ALL the Law in chapter 23. This contradicts Mark 7. Just stating – without any evidence – that the NT is written by the trinity does not solve anything. The NT does not claim to be the Word of God. You are being dishonest to claim otherwise.

      Like

  74. Ken Temple, you are arguing in a circle. Mega fail.

    Liked by 1 person

  75. Ken Temple

    You said;
    The apostle Paul was a great apostle of Jesus Christ.

    I said;
    The writer of the Gospel of Thomas is a great apostle of Jesus Christ.
    The writer of the Gospel of Judas is a great apostle of Jesus Christ.
    The writer of the Epistle of Banabas i.e. Apostle Banabas is a great apostle of Jesus Christ
    etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL4N6_6qqvGa6Oar8wxcp40CTJHXj_Xa7d&v=La6mKH4boe8

    Thanks.

    Like

  76. Christians have always believed that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are in perfect unity in inspiring the Scriptures, both OT and NT.
    “All Scripture is God-breathed” – 2 Tim. 3:16

    “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” 2 Peter 1:20-21

    “Just as the Holy Spirit says . . . ” Hebrews 3:7

    1 Thess. 2:13 – “for you received from us the word of God, you accepted it as it what is really is, not the word of men, but the word of God . . . ”

    also 1 Cor. 2:12-13, etc.

    You miss the point about abrogation – that you have in Islam also – Qur’an 2:106; 16:101

    Some earlier revelation was abrogated by later revelation.

    So you have to take Matthew, and all of Matthew – and the rest of the later revelation also.

    Otherwise you are not submitted to God. Submit to God, realize your sinful heart cannot be cleansed by religion, repent, and trust in Christ to save you from your sins.

    Like

    • Ken I have pointed out to you before that nowhere does the New Testament say of itself that it is the Word of God. This is partly because the NT did not exist in the first century but was finally canonised only in the fourth century. There is no evidence that Paul considered he was writing Holy Scripture when he penned his letters. Most of the letters are occasional correspondence, not revelations from Almighty God.

      Most historians of the New Testament consider it to contain forgeries such as 2 Peter. A number of senior evangelical professors of the Bible have conceded this – eg Richard Baukham.

      Ken, you have repeatedly failed to answer the questions: why did Matthew eliminate the parenthetical comment in Mark about Jesus declaring all foods clean? Jesus commands his followers to obey ALL the 613 commandments of the Law in Matthew 23. Including all the food laws. Will you be honest and admit this contradicts Mark 7?

      Where in Matthew does Jesus abrogate any previous revelation?

      Like

    • Also, James the Head of the Jerusalem church still obeyed ALL the commandments of the Torah which is very odd if Jesus had told people it was OK to eat pork etc.

      James boasted:

      ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law.’

      Acts 21:21

      Like

  77. Already watched that video. Licona defeated Pagels’ arguments.

    Thomas the disciple did not write that Gnostic gospel. Judas certainly did not write the so called “gospel of Judas” either, another gnostic work. The Pseudo-epistle of Barnabas was not written by Barnabas either. They are dated much later, they are Gnostic (the first 2), and they have content that is not consistent with the NT books.

    But there is good evidence that Barnabas wrote Hebrews. Tertullian thought he did. He was a Levite (Acts 4:36), his name means “son of encouragement” and leaves a clue “bear with this word of encouragement” in Hebrews 13:22. Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts 14:4 and 14:14. Hebrews has many consistencies with Paul’s writings and theology, and the writer knew Timothy, that both Paul and Barnabas traveled with. (Hebrews 13:23)

    Like

  78. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Already watched that video. Licona defeated Pagels’ arguments.

    Thomas the disciple did not write that Gnostic gospel. Judas certainly did not write the so called “gospel of Judas” either, another gnostic work. The Pseudo-epistle of Barnabas was not written by Barnabas either. They are dated much later, they are Gnostic (the first 2), and they have content that is not consistent with the NT books.

    But there is good evidence that Barnabas wrote Hebrews. Tertullian thought he did. He was a Levite (Acts 4:36), his name means “son of encouragement” and leaves a clue “bear with this word of encouragement” in Hebrews 13:22. Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts 14:4 and 14:14. Hebrews has many consistencies with Paul’s writings and theology, and the writer knew Timothy, that both Paul and Barnabas traveled with. (Hebrews 13:23)

    I say;
    I knew you watched the video but I am reminding you that, dates of all the gospels( Canonical and non Canonical) and the letters of Paul of Tarsus and all ancient documents are being contested by scholars and others, so we cannot take your word that the gospels you do not like i.e. gospel of Thomas etc. are dated later-That is not true. Your gospels are called canonized, because it was selected among others and it means there were so many gospels out there that were not selected at the same time. As a Christian, dismissing other gospels you do not like as later without proof is not good. Elaine Pagels and others are also scholars of scriptures and she is more experienced than Licona and she is saying the other gospels are also ancient like the canonized one and must not be rejected because it was not selected, and you are refusing to accept it. That is not good as a Christian because it does not have your belief, so it is bad.

    You knew very well that, scholars believe, Mark, Mathew, Luke, John etc. were not written by these disciples of Jesus. So, there were so many tales, fables,stories etc. about Jesus, shortly after him that are circulating and every one including Paul start writing their own thing to their whims and caprice and it will be good, one examine it if it conforms with what God said He is in the Torah i.e. He is One, Only and Alone. Any addition or deletion with regards to God as One, Only and Alone as the Bible said is a lie. All the gospels including yours have problem

    You blamed some gospel believers because they said Jesus had no body. You forgot you believe, Jesus is God and if Jesus is God, then he obviously has no body and you are on the same boat. You are ignorant here, and not them. But because they do not believe what you believe you call them names. It is not good.

    You believed God is God-Man and can do whatever He wants but to discredit another who said God has no body. You believe God died and is a MALE but to discredit someone who said God will attract female to be male. Why did you God Jesus made himself male but not female. That is discrimination by your God. The other gospel is neutralizing the maleship of God by attracting female to male to also become God-Woman to share the glory of God.

    Do not discredit other gospels please because just like you believe Apostle Paul wrote whatever letters to people and does not think he is writing a Bible, that is how the other Apostles like Banabas in his epistle, Thomas in his gospel etc. had the inspiration from God.
    T
    have

    Like

  79. Ken Temple “Otherwise you are not submitted to God. Submit to God, realize your sinful heart cannot be cleansed by religion, repent, and trust in Christ to save you from your sins.” Back to preaching again. Come on Ken, that’s ridiculous. You have to do better than that. Seriously.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ken likes to preach at Muslims, he hopes, wrongly, that we will worship Jesus and abandon our intellects for blind faith.

      But I have been there, and done that…

      Like

  80. Ken Temple

    You said;
    and trust in Christ to save you from your sins.

    I say;
    I know so many Christians who trust in Christ to save them from their sins, but unfortunately, Christ disappointed them and could not save them from their sins. They keep sinning everyday. It will be suicidal for Christ to commit suicide by killing himself to let a rapist murderer free because he(rapist murderer) is a Christian and trusts Christ to save him from his sins.

    Thanks.

    Like

  81. Ken Temple
    GF
    You said;
    Christians have always believed that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are in perfect unity in inspiring the Scriptures, both OT and NT.
    “All Scripture is God-breathed” – 2 Tim. 3:16

    “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” 2 Peter 1:20-21

    “Just as the Holy Spirit says . . . ” Hebrews 3:7

    1 Thess. 2:13 – “for you received from us the word of God, you accepted it as it what is really is, not the word of men, but the word of God . . . ”

    also 1 Cor. 2:12-13, etc.

    I say;
    When your Church Fathers were selecting the gospels from the other gospels to make it canonical, how do they know that, the ones they reject were not God breathed?
    God obviously did not come to the Church Fathers and mentioned to them, that, “I breathed this gospel”, “Oh my people, I did not breath this gospel, so do not add it to the canon”. All the gospels were selected by men including Pauls’ letters which are not even gospels but because it in some way agrees with what they want to hear but rejected other important gospels which might contain some truths and lies as well. All those stories were combinations of truths and lies about Jesus and those that does not reflect Jesus is by no means not God are all lies according to Torah that said God is not a man.

    Thanks

    Liked by 1 person

  82. “Ken likes to preach at Muslims , he hopes, wrongly, that we will worship Jesus and abandon our intellects for blind faith. But I have been there, and done that…”
    Speaking to those fundamentalists is much like speaking to a brick wall

    Like

  83. This is partly because the NT did not exist in the first century but was finally canonised only in the fourth century.

    Every book of the NT was written in the first century, so, as individual scrolls they already existed. Revelation or Jude were the last books written, around 80-96 AD. I know you will mention Bauckham’s view of 2 Peter and/or quote liberals who put 2 Peter later, but that is not true.

    I think Peter probably dictated orally his 2nd letter to Jude from prison, and Jude wrote it down; which would account for the similarities in grammar and content between the 2 letters.

    I realize there is scholarly disagreement on a few of the NT books, such as 2 Peter and the Pastoral epistles, but most scholars concede that most of the NT was written before 70 AD. (John’s writings, & Jude were in the 80s to 96 AD)

    Tertullian and Irenaeus, who wrote around 180-220 AD, mention most of the 27 NT books. Before them, nobody wrote much that we have as extant. Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr are the earlier Christian writers who did not write much each so as to quote or refer to all the books, or as many as Tertullian and Irenaeus did.

    There is no contradiction between Mark and Matthew. All the NT books are in harmon and unity with one another.

    Like

    • In fact Ken, most scholars date 2 Peter to somewhere around the mid second century.

      You have offered no evidence (because there is none!) that the New Testament says of itself that it is “the Word of God”.

      You have offered no rebuttal – based on any historical evidence – that the NT as a canon of scripture existed in the first century (because it did not!)

      You have offered no evidence to contradict the fact that the NT was finally canonised only in the fourth century (because there is none!)

      You have offered no evidence that Paul considered he was writing Holy Scripture when he penned his letters. 1 Thess. 2:13 probably refers to preaching the Word not a text. If it was a text which one? All of them? I Timothy 5:18 refers all four gospels? Obviously not Ken.

      Ken, you have repeatedly failed to answer the questions:

      Why did Matthew eliminate the parenthetical comment in Mark about Jesus declaring all foods clean? Jesus commands his followers to obey ALL the 613 commandments of the Law in Matthew 23. Including all the food laws.

      Will you be honest and admit this contradicts Mark 7?

      Where in Matthew does Jesus abrogate any previous revelation?

      Come on Ken you can do better!

      Like

  84. When your Church Fathers were selecting the gospels from the other gospels to make it canonical, how do they know that, the ones they reject were not God breathed?

    Because of the
    1. internal content,
    2. harmony with the apostolic tradition,
    3. authorship by an apostle or friend of an apostle (apostolic authority – like Mark writing for Peter and Luke writing under Paul’s authority),
    4. and if it had the marks of inspiration, and
    5. if it was in use by the churches as God’s word from earliest times that they could ascertain.

    It was the spiritual ability for believers in Christ (I John 2:22-28 and 1 Cor. 2:14-16 tells us) to distinquish between the true and the false, because whatever Gnostic content was known to be false.

    Clement of Rome, Justin Martry, Ignatius, Polycarp (2nd Century), Tertullian, Irenaeus (late 2nd Century) Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian (3rd Century), – testified to these things in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, Athanasius, Augustine, Jerome, Hillary, and Ambrose in the 4th century.

    Like

  85. The apostle Paul clearly believed his teaching and letters were “God-breathed”:

    1 Thess. 2:13 – “for you received from us the word of God, you accepted it as it what is really is, not the word of men, but the word of God . . . ”

    also 1 Cor. 2:12-13

    Galatians 1:6-9

    “I say to you now” = “what I am writing to you now”

    I Timothy 5:18 – quotes from gospels and law together as inspired Scripture.

    Like

  86. “I Timothy 5:18 – quotes from gospels and law together as inspired Scripture.”

    “for the scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain’, and, ‘The labourer deserves to be paid.’”

    So that is a quote from all four gospels Ken? Obviously not. And most New Testament historians – including many evangelical experts – do not think Paul actually wrote 1 Timothy. It is probably a forgery.

    Like

  87. Ken likes to preach at Muslims, he hopes, wrongly, that we will worship Jesus and abandon our intellects for blind faith.

    But I have been there, and done that…

    “The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.” 2 Timothy 2:24-26

    There is always hope as long as you are alive, that perhaps God will grant you and anyone else who reads repentance.

    Like

  88. The quote in 1 Timothy 5:18 is from Luke 10:7 and Matthew 10:10. Paul puts that as Scripture with the quote from Deuternomy (law).

    Like

  89. 1 Thess. 2:13 probably refers to preaching the Word not a text.

    But then after he preached to them, he wrote the content down and sent letters to them and other churches.

    Same idea is in 1 Corinthians 2:12-16 and Galatians 1:6-9 – he is writing, and saying “I am declaring/saying to you” by writing – and he is saying his teaching is from the Holy Spirit of God.

    Like

  90. Matthew anticipates the church that Jesus says He will build. Matthew 16:16-18; 18:15-20

    “I will build My Church” – Jesus, in Matthew 16:18

    later revelation in Acts 10-11 abrogate some of the earlier revelation, like food laws. Mark was written to Gentiles / Romans and Greeks – so Mark is explaining what Jesus meant.

    Matthew is writing to Jewish Christians, no need to write that to them. God does not require the Jews to eat pork or catfish or crab if they don’t want to; but He frees the Gentiles – Romans, Greeks, others to not have to obey the food laws of Israel.

    But then later, in Acts 10-11 – Jesus commands Peter to kill those animals and eat them. Peter then later ate food with the Genitles – Galatians 2:11-12 .

    it all fits, but you must take all of it; not pick and choose as you do.

    Matthew’s gospel also affirms the trials of Jesus and the cross and crucifixion and resurrection and commission to preach, make disciples, and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 26, 27, 28) If you want Matthew 5:19 so zealously, you have to accept all of Matthew – about the church – chapters 16, 18, and about the crucifixion and resurrection and baptism in the 3 persons of the Trinity, etc.

    You also should not miss the teaching of Jesus about your sinful heart, since you are affirming Matthew 15.

    15 Peter ]said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.” Matthew 15:15-20

    Your heart makes you unclean, not the eating of certain foods, or not doing external ritual washings. Wudu / Voozoo وضو cannot cleanse your heart.

    Like

    • Ken

      You claim ‘The revelation in Acts 10-11 abrogate some of the earlier revelation, like food laws’

      No it does not. The revelation refers to salvation coming to the Gentiles – they are no longer unclean but acceptable to God. Reread the passage carefully Ken.

      Like

  91. Ken Temple

    You said;
    When your Church Fathers were selecting the gospels from the other gospels to make it canonical, how do they know that, the ones they reject were not God breathed?

    Because of the
    1. internal content,
    2. harmony with the apostolic tradition,
    3. authorship by an apostle or friend of an apostle (apostolic authority – like Mark writing for Peter and Luke writing under Paul’s authority),
    4. and if it had the marks of inspiration, and
    5. if it was in use by the churches as God’s word from earliest times that they could ascertain.

    It was the spiritual ability for believers in Christ (I John 2:22-28 and 1 Cor. 2:14-16 tells us) to distinquish between the true and the false, because whatever Gnostic content was known to be false.

    Clement of Rome, Justin Martry, Ignatius, Polycarp (2nd Century), Tertullian, Irenaeus (late 2nd Century) Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian (3rd Century), – testified to these things in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, Athanasius, Augustine, Jerome, Hillary, and Ambrose in the 4th century.

    I say;
    With all due respect, you said nothing above.

    Why?
    Because the Gnostic Christians and their supporters could say the same as above for their scriptures and in fact they believed all that you believed above with regards to their scriptures, so you have said nothing with all due respect. I thought you were going to give hard proof where God came to tell your Church Fathers which gospels He breathed and which he did not but you failed.

    Clement, Ignatius, Irenaeus etc. were all not present at Jesus time and were not Jesus disciples and do not have any authority to say which gospels were breathed and which were not. They were not God themselves.

    Christianity, has diverse beliefs from the earliest till today, so you cannot say yours is the truth. We have read about early Christian like Arius who does not believe Jesus is God and persecuted by Emperor Constantine. Despite the persecution, it did not died of but developed into Unitarian Christians like Anthony Buzzard, David Kimball-Cook etc., Jehovah witness and Rastafarians who believed Emperor Haile Selaissie is part of Trinity to represent Black Africans, for they do not understand why God should come as a white with blonde hair.

    Still the diverse Christianity continue in the form of Catholics, protestants, Calvinist, Reform Baptist just to name a few. So what you wrote above is nothing because Christianity started with no any internal content, harmony with the apostolic tradition, marks of inspiration etc. but with diversity in theology till today. Catholics could also say they got transubstantiation from the early Church Fathers. You will not believe them, so we will also not believe you above unless you prove that God told them which gospel to select as His breathed gospel. You cant and we will not accept your belief, as you will not accept the Catholics argument they got their practice from the harmony with apostolic tradition. There is no proof from you but what you believed and cannot be accepted. Belief is not a proof.

    I cannot tell you to believe Prophet Mohammed night Journey because I have no proof of that but I just believed it. No proof for me on this one. So you do not have proof that God told your Church Fathers which gospels he breathed and which he did not. Assertions are subjective and all the other gospels believe their Church Fathers who selected their gospels believed the internal contents, harmony with the apostolic tradition etc.is O.K when it comes to their gospels i.e. gospel of Thomas.

    Thanks

    Like

  92. Intellect:

    I know so many Christians who trust in Christ to save them from their sins, but unfortunately, Christ disappointed them and could not save them from their sins. They keep sinning everyday.

    Salvation from sin means salvation from the guilt and condemnation of sin (that leads to hell), and from the slavery to sin; it does not mean that we never sin any more. It also means a freedom from the slavery to sin; but not the presence of sin.

    “If anyone says that they have no sin, they are a liar and the truth is not in them” – I John 1:8, 10

    “if we confess our sins . . . ” 1 John 1:9

    “confess your sins to one another” – James 5:16

    Christians are not perfect or sinless; but God expects us to repent and change and grow in increasing levels of holiness and hatred of our sins.

    Like

  93. Intellect: Gnostics were not Christians – they were an aberration, innovation, heresy – بدعه -Bida’ – like the way Sunni’s believe Shi’a are and all Sunnis and Shiia’s view the Ahmadiyeh and Druze and many of the Sufis are considered heretics.

    Like

  94. Ignatius (110 AD), Irenaeus (180 AD) and Tertullian (200 AD) and Clement of Alexandria (215 AD) and Origen (250 AD) proved that the Gnostics were not Christian at all.

    Like

  95. Ken of course the Gnostics called themselves Christian.

    You pick and choose who you cite and ignore all the other Christians because they contract your claims.

    However many of the original Jewish Christians saw Paul as an apostate

    Liked by 1 person

  96. No it does not. The revelation refers to salvation coming to the Gentiles – they are no longer unclean but acceptable to God. Reread the passage carefully Ken.</i?

    it is both, because God wanted the Jewish Christians to reach out in evangelism and discipleship to the Gentiles and love them and eat food with them (which Peter did in Galatians 1:11-12, etc. ) That is why Mark 7:19 says what it says and why BOTH Mark and Matthew follow with the story of the Syro-Phoenician (Canaanite) woman in Mark 7 and matthew 15 – to show how food is closely related to culture and ethnicity and that those laws don't apply to the Gentile cultures that eat other foods like pork and crab and lobsters and catfish, etc.

    Like

    • Why did Jesus tell all his followers to obey all the commandments of the law including the food laws In Matthew 23? Why does this contracting Mark 7? Which is historical?

      Like

  97. At first, the Jewish Christians were afraid of Paul, since he persecuted them before as Saul of Tarsus.

    But later, they accepted him and his revelation as from Jesus – Galatians 2:7-9 – Peter, John, and James accepted Paul as being “entrusted with the gospel” and “recognizing the grace had been given to me, Peter and John and James gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship”,

    Like

  98. Ken Temple

    You said;
    The apostle Paul clearly believed his teaching and letters were “God-breathed”:

    1 Thess. 2:13 – “for you received from us the word of God, you accepted it as it what is really is, not the word of men, but the word of God . . . ”

    also 1 Cor. 2:12-13

    Galatians 1:6-9

    “I say to you now” = “what I am writing to you now”

    I Timothy 5:18 – quotes from gospels and law together as inspired Scripture.

    I say;
    The disciple of Jesus Thomas clearly believed he is an eye witness writing about Jesus were “God-breathed”

    Nag Hammadi Coptic Text
    Gospel of Thomas Coptic Text

    (77) Jesus said: I am the light that is above them all. I am the all; the all came forth from me, and the all attained to me. Cleave a (piece of) wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there.

    Thanks

    Like

  99. Ken Temple says: “Every book of the NT was written in the first century, so, as individual SCROLLS they already existed.”

    Here are some facts for you: P 52 is generally accepted as the earliest extant record of a canonical New Testament text
    P 52 is a fragment from a papyrus CODEX.

    “Every book of the NT was written in the first century, so, as individual SCROLLS they already existed.” Mega fail.

    Liked by 1 person

  100. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Intellect:

    I know so many Christians who trust in Christ to save them from their sins, but unfortunately, Christ disappointed them and could not save them from their sins. They keep sinning everyday.

    Salvation from sin means salvation from the guilt and condemnation of sin (that leads to hell), and from the slavery to sin; it does not mean that we never sin any more. It also means a freedom from the slavery to sin; but not the presence of sin.

    “If anyone says that they have no sin, they are a liar and the truth is not in them” – I John 1:8, 10

    “if we confess our sins . . . ” 1 John 1:9

    “confess your sins to one another” – James 5:16

    Christians are not perfect or sinless; but God expects us to repent and change and grow in increasing levels of holiness and hatred of our sins.

    I say;
    Why do you then preach “Jesus died for the sins of those who accepts him” but in reality or truth, they continue to sin. How is it true that Jesus saves those who accepts his death and resurrection to save them, but there are still sinful, I am they continue to sin? He did not save them I guess, as they continue to sin like anyone.

    By condemnation from sin(that leads to hell), do you mean to tell me that, just because a Christian accepts Jesus died for his sins, and continue to sin as you believe that might be the case, so will be sent to heaven? After some believing Christians embezzle Church funds, rape the girls, and murder people will be sent to heaven after his deathÉ

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  101. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Intellect: Gnostics were not Christians – they were an aberration, innovation, heresy – بدعه -Bida’ – like the way Sunni’s believe Shi’a are and all Sunnis and Shiia’s view the Ahmadiyeh and Druze and many of the Sufis are considered heretics.

    I say;
    Sufis are Muslims, Shite are Muslims because they believe God is One and Mohammed is the last prophet to stop the proliferation of other false prophets. It is only Ahmadis who opened the proliferation of other false prophets that are considered not Muslims. Yet still some orthodox Muslims consider Ahmidiyahs as Muslims. Bida does not exclude a person from being Muslim. We are all not perfect. In Islam heresy does not exclude one from being Muslim and so is it in Christianity. Mr. Ken those you call heresy also looks at you as heretic and heresy for believing that God has a body. God does not have a body. They are right. But your bias in your faith, makes you think they are wrong.

    Catholics, Jehovah Witness(Modern day Arians), Unitarian Christians(Modern day Arians), etc. are all Christians but you do not share their views. The Gnostics are indeed Christians just like you and the Catholics. Because you do not share their views does not mean they are not Christians.

    That is why I keep embedding Professor Elaine Pagels to put sense in your brain that, these Christians are called Gnostics, heretics, heresy etc. to label them as not Christians but they are Christians and believed in Jesus. They did not believe in Mohammed but Christ. It is just like calling a Jehovah Witness or Anthony Buzzard as Gnostic, heretic and heresy. Why don’t you call Roman Catholics as Gnostic, heretics and heresy because you did not believe in the transubstantiation which they were doing long time ago?

    The Roman Catholics have some texts in the Bible you do not have. You persecuted them and they persecuted you and accused each other as heretics, heresy before the atheists and the liberals enacted laws and constitution to force you to stop persecuting each other. Because the Catholics and the Protestants are dominants now, they cannot call each other heretic, and heresy.

    In Christianity, it is a matter of domination before a rival is called gnostic, heretic and heresy by people like Ignatius, Irenaeus and the rest.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  102. P 52 is a fragment from a papyrus CODEX.

    “Every book of the NT was written in the first century, so, as individual SCROLLS they already existed.” Mega fail.

    It is not a “mega fail”, because P-52 is an early copy, not the original of John. Codex sheets written on front and back began to be used later, and since P-52 is usually dated somewhere between 117-150 AD, it is not a problem, since it is not the original scroll that was written in the first century (around 80-90 AD). Some scholars even argue that the gospel of John was also written before 70 AD. (Daniel Wallace makes a good case for that. see at www dot bible dot org and/or google Daniel Wallace, Introduction to John)

    So, the fact that P-52 is from a codex sheet does not make my point a mega fail at all. Even if some were written in early 2nd century, as liberals argue, they were still indiviidual books, and already in existence long before they were put together in a larger codex of tying them together and binding them together.

    The style of the script is Hadrianic, which would suggest a most probable date somewhere between 117 AD and 138 AD. The codex method was just beginning to be used then.

    It is actually your argument that is a mega fail.

    Like

  103. Are the Ahmadiye (Qadiani ) Muslims?

    It is amazing that you would continue to hold onto the view that the Gnostics was any kind of real Christianity. It was a massive heresy / Bida’ (Bida’ is actually a weaker concept in Isalm than “heresy” is in Christianity) that Irenaeus and Tertullian totally refuted in the late second and early 3rd century. (around 180-220 AD)

    You can read Irenaeus on line for free – his 5 books “Against Heresies” at newadvent dot org or ccel dot org. Also Tertullian is there – many works against Marcion and Gnostic heresies. Your line of argumentation shows you don’t understand Christian history at all.

    The Gnostics and Docetics denied that Jesus had a body, this is heresy and worse than heresy – it is kufur. It is stronger than the Islamic term, Bida’ / بدعه

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    • Kren you claimed:

      ‘The Gnostics and Docetics denied that Jesus had a body, this is heresy and worse than heresy – it is kufur. It is stronger than the Islamic term, Bida’ / بدعه’

      Are you a closet Muslim? You love using Islamic terms and quoting arabic! It is unusual for a committed fundamentalist Christian to speak like a Muslim.

      Like

  104. Paul Williams wrote: “Paul lied”.

    That is just your bare assertion with no historical evidence.

    Even Bart Ehrman believes Paul wrote Galatians, is an authentic letter, and that Paul knew Peter, John, and James, the half-brother of Jesus. (per Galatians 2:7-9)

    At first, the Jewish Christians were afraid of Paul since he persecuted the church as Saul of Tarsus. But later, the disciples of Jesus accepted Paul and his revelation as from Jesus – Galatians 2:7-9 – Peter, John, and James accepted Paul as being “entrusted with the gospel” and “recognizing the grace had been given to me, Peter and John and James gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship”,

    Like

  105. Because the Catholics and the Protestants are dominants now, they cannot call each other heretic, and heresy.

    Yes, we can still call each other heretics and excommunicate people from churches; I think what you mean is that we cannot persecute or use physical force, torture, or violence against each other. True; and I am grateful for that. (unlike Islam in most of it’s history, which uses the power of the state to stomp out others.)

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  106. By condemnation from sin(that leads to hell), do you mean to tell me that, just because a Christian accepts Jesus died for his sins, and continue to sin as you believe that might be the case, so will be sent to heaven? After some believing Christians embezzle Church funds, rape the girls, and murder people will be sent to heaven after his deathÉ

    No; if a person claims to be a Christian and does big sins like embezzles funds, rapes girls, and murders people, that shows that they are not Christians, no matter what they claim. one can claim or say that they are Christian, etc. but the proof is that they have a changed life.

    You will know them by their fruits – Matthew 7:15-23

    Romans 6:1-7 –

    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

    3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be rendered powerless, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

    Romans 6:1-7

    Like

  107. Ken Temple

    You said;
    It is amazing that you would continue to hold onto the view that the Gnostics was any kind of real Christianity. It was a massive heresy / Bida’ (Bida’ is actually a weaker concept in Isalm than “heresy” is in Christianity) that Irenaeus and Tertullian totally refuted in the late second and early 3rd century. (around 180-220 AD)

    You can read Irenaeus on line for free – his 5 books “Against Heresies” at newadvent dot org or ccel dot org. Also Tertullian is there – many works against Marcion and Gnostic heresies. Your line of argumentation shows you don’t understand Christian history at all.

    The Gnostics and Docetics denied that Jesus had a body, this is heresy and worse than heresy – it is kufur. It is stronger than the Islamic term, Bida’ /

    I say;
    We keep going in circles with regards to other Christians being called names by you and your religious supremacists like Ireneaus who will call any body who do not believe as he believes names. That is one bad thing about Some Christians like you who without proof will hold their religion as superior than any religion including their fellow followers in Christ and bent on bringing them back to Christianity. Such is the problem of this world. Without any law and order in the West to control people like you, there might have been blood shed as was done to silence these ancient Christians which are part of Christianity from when all Christianity begins to emerge.

    Apart from few extremist Muslims are general more accommodating and Sufis, Sunnis, Shite etc. lived together as Muslims especially in al-Andalus, ancient Spain and Portugal.

    Ireneaus and Tertullian were not disciples of Jesus and so have no Authority to refute any Christian sect. I mentioned to you that you are gnostic, heresy and heretic by believing

    a. God has a body

    b. God died

    c. God is God-Man

    d. God is Man

    e. God is 3 Persons/persons and any Person/person is a Being and you worship 3 Beings i.e. either 3 divine beings or combinations of 3 divine and human beings but the Bible of Torah which is the beginning of God messages states God is One, Only and Alone. There was no any 3 persons or God-Man, God-Woman, White blonde God or Black person God etc.

    So, you are the gnostic, heretic, and heresy but not a Christian like the apostle Thomas who is an eye witness and wrote his gospels and said God does not have a body.

    Thanks.

    Like

  108. Ken Temple

    You said;
    By condemnation from sin(that leads to hell), do you mean to tell me that, just because a Christian accepts Jesus died for his sins, and continue to sin as you believe that might be the case, so will be sent to heaven? After some believing Christians embezzle Church funds, rape the girls, and murder people will be sent to heaven after his deathÉ

    No; if a person claims to be a Christian and does big sins like embezzles funds, rapes girls, and murders people, that shows that they are not Christians, no matter what they claim. one can claim or say that they are Christian, etc. but the proof is that they have a changed life.

    You will know them by their fruits – Matthew 7:15-23

    Romans 6:1-7 –

    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

    I say;
    Then it will be wicked and bad and lie to preach to people that, when they accept Christ, they are saved and he died for their sins.

    Why?
    Because, according to your explanations above, even if one accepts Christ died for his sins, he is still responsible for his sins just like Islam. Because just like how a Muslim who embezzle Mosque funds, rape girls, and murder people will be punished, Christians who embezzle Church funds, rape the girls, and murder people will also be punished, so Jesus cannot save anyone except that one must to good deeds, repent and stop bad deeds.

    Muslims are responsible for their sins because they do not have anyone die for their sins but because Jesus Christ death on the cross is useless, Christians are still responsible for their sins.

    Thanks.

    Like

  109. Ken Temple, you say “Every book of the NT was written in the first century, so, as individual SCROLLS they already existed.”

    That is just your bare assertion with no historical evidence.

    The earliest historical evidence is from a papyrus CODEX, not a SCROLL. Your assertion is a mega fail in light of the evidence.

    Like

  110. LOL. Speaking this way comes from sincerely seeking to understand Islam and Muslims, and learning some of the key words. (And spending lots of time with Muslims.) We have the most important Arabic words in Farsi, though sometimes written differently, and sometimes pronounced differently.

    Check out the debate between Bart Ehrman and Tim McGrew at the Unbelievable Radio Program (with Justin Brierley). Just google those terms and it will come up. The details they get into are pointedly related to your post and our debate/discussion.

    Like

  111. Ken Temple

    You said;

    Ken Temple

    July 31, 2015 • 10:45 pm

    Paul Williams wrote: “Paul lied”.

    That is just your bare assertion with no historical evidence.

    Even Bart Ehrman believes Paul wrote Galatians, is an authentic letter, and that Paul knew Peter, John, and James, the half-brother of Jesus. (per Galatians 2:7-9)

    At first, the Jewish Christians were afraid of Paul since he persecuted the church as Saul of Tarsus. But later, the disciples of Jesus accepted Paul and his revelation as from Jesus – Galatians 2:7-9 – Peter, John, and James accepted Paul as being “entrusted with the gospel” and “recognizing the grace had been given to me, Peter and John and James gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship”,

    I Say;
    Where is the proof that Paul wrote Galatians? Was Bart Ehrman there when Paul was writing Galatians? No. Where you, Dr. James White, Mike Licona etc, there when Paul was writing Galatians? No. So there is not proof Paul wrote Galatians. Even, if we accept Paul wrote Galatians, it does not make Galatians true. Paul could write Galatians and introduce the Pagan religion in it.

    What will make Galatians acceptable is, is if the doctrine of believing in God of Abraham is One, Only and Alone is clearly stated as in the Torah, the original message of the God of Abraham. People could also argue that, the Torah has gone through changes but the concept of God as One, Only and Alone is clearly stated all over, which makes it very important.

    Whether Paul wrote Galatians or not does not make it the word of God if it hints God is Man, God died but contradicted himself by God is immortal, God is 3 Persons/persons, Jesus is God etc.

    Mr. Ken, it does not matter whether a document is writing by who, and the earlier or the latter it was, but the truth. Prophet Moses, Mohammed, Abraham, Jesus, etc. Othman, Paul of Tarsus, Abubakar, John, Mark etc. could write books but the contents is what will make them truthful if it is in agreement of how God defined Himself in the Torah the original message as He is One, Only and Alone.

    If he is man, then he is not alone because there are many men like him

    If He is 3 Persons/persons, then He is not One, Only and Alone because each Person/person is a Being and the Trinity will have 3 divine beings or combinations of 3 divine and human beings but the Torah said God is One, Only and Alone i.e. Being(divine).

    So, Yahwey is Only, One and Alone divine Being.

    Proof

    2.”there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
    3.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
    4.”Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
    5.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
    1.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
    6.”You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
    7.”For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
    8.”Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
    1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    1.”You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
    10.”For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
    1.”You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
    11.”Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
    1.”You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6

    Mr. Ken, 3 Persons/persons are not alone. 3 Persons/persons are not only One Being. Wake up Mr. Ken, and stop being intoxicated by blind faith. The Quran said, use your intellect. It is not there for nothing.

    Any earlier or later manuscript written by any one including Paul of Tarsus or Prophet Mohamed if it does not clearly and unequivocally states God is One, Only and Alone then the writer is a liar and must not be taken seriously especially if he hints God is man or Jesus is God which Jesus never said.

    THER EARLIER OR THE LATER A MANUSCRIPT WRITTEN BY WHOEVER, DOES NOT MAKE WHAT IS IN THE MANUSCRIPT THE TRUTH. THE TRUTH IS WHAT GOD EARLIER ON SAID HE WAS AND ONES INTELLECT, AND COMMON SENSE MUST HELP HIM TO TROW ILLOGICALITIES, INCONSISTENCIES, IRRATIONALITIES IN ANY MANUSCRIPT TO ASCERTAIN THE TRUTH.

    Thanks

    Like

  112. Ken Temple

    You said;
    Even Bart Ehrman believes Paul wrote Galatians, is an authentic letter, and that Paul knew Peter, John, and James, the half-brother of Jesus. (per Galatians 2:7-9)

    I say;
    Where in the Gospel of John, does he(John) said he knows Paul? Remember, Paul founded Christianity, so the synoptic Gospels must clearly speak about him, as the Old Testament prophesised about Jesus Christ and the rest of the prophets who are to come.

    Of course, if Paul wrote Galatians, he would say he knew Peter there to gain credibility. Bart Ehrman said, those time, when you write something and you do not put the names of the disciples there, it will not gain theological importance, that is why people forge the names of the disciples in the gospels but actually, the disciples were poor fishermen, who spoke Aramaic and not ‘Greek and are not literates to write these gospels. That is why there were about 80 gospels at a time and now they begin to surface as gospel of Mary, Judas, Sherphered Hermas, epistle of Banabas, Thomas, etc.

    Those who selected the Canonical ones may not know the ones they left out were in fact inspired by God or at least part of it was inspired by God, because God did not tell them that, “I inspired these Gospels”, “I did not inspired these Gospels”. The fact are that, since there were so many stories about Jesus circulating and people were selecting which ones they want, all the gospels would end up with mixture of truths and lies about Jesus including the Canonical Gospels.

    Dr. James White-“We are did not control our texts” , “as Othman did”. Too bad for Dr. White and what Doctor is that, who will sit down and allow mistakes, unknown readings, etc. to be introduced into an important document that has to do with burning fire without correcting it and boasting “We have everything”. Unknown readings in the Bible like the short and long ending of Mark? Is that what you want, so that you will not preach it in your Church? but other Christians are preaching it in their Church? and snakes are biting and killing Christians? because your Church Fathers did not know which part of the Bible was breathed and which part were not breathed? Too bad a decision by your Church Fathers and you.

    Thanks.

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