The callers says he’s a Trinitarian Christian but has some questions about it. James has trouble answering him and begins to doubt if he is a Christian caller.
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Blogging Theology 
God Man i.e. Married bachelor or square circle is absolutely impossible, nonsense, a lie, stupid and rubbish and no wonder it is not in the Bible-God-Man.
Thanks
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How can God be both 1 Who and 3 Who’s?
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Wow can Jesus be “fully man” without being a human “Who”?
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White kept mentioning a term in 1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But how is that evidence for the two natures claim? And moreover, how is it evidence for the 100% man and 100% claim (as opposed to 50%-%0% or some other percentage idea)
I can see why White was get so agitated…he has no evidence for his claims.
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James had no trouble in answering him.
Dr. White said, “stop asking where, it is not a spacial thing” – that’s right.
He was using John 1:1-5 and John 1:14 also.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:14 – “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only unique one from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
“Why cannot the 2nd person of the Trinity take on a divine nature?”
Dr. White was right that the guy was assuming that Jesus was one person with one nature, rather than one person with 2 natures.
These passages also speak to the issue.
Hebrews 1:3, 6, 8
Colossians 1:15-20
Philippians 2:5-11
Shabir Ally was wrong when he said, “God entered into Jesus” (after making the terrible parallel of demons entering humans). Estaqfr’allah! استغفرالله
God did not “enter into the man Jesus” – rather God, the Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity became flesh, took on a human nature in the womb of Mary.
Luke 1:34-35
(after the angel says, “you will have a son”)
34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Shabir Ally was wrong when he said, “God entered into Jesus” (after making the terrible parallel of demons entering humans). Estaqfr’allah! استغفرالله
God did not “enter into the man Jesus” – rather God, the Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity became flesh, took on a human nature in the womb of Mary.
Luke 1:34-35
(after the angel says, “you will have a son”)
34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
I say;
It does not matter how you phrase it, Mr. Ken, the conclusion is that, the 2nd person of the Trinity is 100% Man and 100% God the same as the demons in humans which Jesus cast out were 100% demons in 100% Man. It is the same as demons in human as the 2nd person of the Trinity God in humans because in both cases, the human, flesh was there alone with no either God or demon, but later God or demon took the form or enter into it, or overshadowed it etc. You name it or phrase it the way you like, it is the same thing as demons are in human, the 2nd person of the Trinity is in human too as 100% God just like the demons are also 100% demons in human so in either case when the 100% God or Demon is out of the human or before it took the form of human, the human is 100% man and therefore a man and not God or demon, So Jesus Christ is a man especially when he was being lead to the cross and beating the 100% God will separate Himself from the beatings because the Almighty God cannot be beating.
Similarly, if the 100% man part of Jesus entered into toilet or have some sexual desires, the 100% God part of him will separate himself to heaven and wait for the man Jesus to finish those things that the 100% God will not do. I say this because the Almighty God does not go to toilet or have sexual desires, but all 100% men do these.
Similarly, if a demon possessed person was cast our by Jesus or exorcists(Christianity) or Rukiya (Islam), the man remains man just like when the demon is in him because the demon did not make him(the man) a demon.
So, 100% God in Jesus(100% Man) in any way shape or form to borrow from my good scholar Dr. James White, does not make Jesus God, so Jesus is not God at all and stop worshiping Jesus Mr. Ken.
Thanks
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You said;
James had no trouble in answering him.
Dr. White said, “stop asking where, it is not a spacial thing” – that’s right.
He was using John 1:1-5 and John 1:14 also.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:14 – “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only unique one from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
I say;
In the beginning the was a Word(God) and the Word(God) was with God, and the Word(God) was God.
The above statement from the Bible clearly states God was with God and it is 2 Gods and is against the Bible and is polytheism. Those who believe this must stop and choose a monotheistic religion either Islam, Judaism or at least Unitarian Christians or Jehovah Witness.
Every Person/person is a Being/being i.e. human being, angelic being, satanic being like the demons. the demons are beings. The Ultimate Being is the Divine Being. So God is a Being so to say 3 Persons/persons who are 3 Beings either humans or divine beings are 1 being is 3 beings 1 being which is 3x=1x and is wrong and God should not be wrong.vid
My dear friend Ken will counter and say I am comparing God and man and what the Trinitarians always forget is that, they are the ones who compare God to man by saying God became man or God is 3 persons, or God is God Man or God is Jesus. All these belief by Trinitarians is absolutely comparing God to man and even saying God is a man.
A person(Trinitarian) who says a man is God is accusing some one who is comparing God to man and that person is not actually comparing God to man but refuting the one who said God is man by comparing the difference.
It is just like me believing a Goat is a Man, but accuse someone of comparing Goat to man. Ken, you did worse than comparing God to man by saying a man Jesus is God and by believing in that you have already compared God to man and the Bible is against all these that is why it clearly state in numerous verses that He(God) of Abraham, Jacob, Jesus, Isaac, etc. is One, Only and Alone and that is what Islam is here to correct the Christians and Dr. James White admit that.
Evidence.P
There is no where in the Bible that states God is 3 Persons in 1 but there are so may verses that clearly and unambiguously states God is One, Only and Alone.
Proof
1.”For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh. ” Genesis 2:24
2.”there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
3.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
4.”Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
5.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
1.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
6.”You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
7.”For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
8.”Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
1.”You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
10.”For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
1.”You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
11.”Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
I still have more verse of the Bible that says God is One, Only and Alone but not a single verse you can give me that states God is 3 persons in 1 God. Mr. Ken, God is a good God and will not hide salvation from us but will rather make it clear like the above verses and repeat them over and over in the scripture, so that we will not blame Him(God) and say He did not make it clear for us or hide it for us like the hidden Trinity.
God will surely not punish anyone for not believing Trinity because it is not there in the Bible and it is absolutely impossibility, nonsense and rubbish created by man.
Thanks.
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In the beginning the was a Word(God) and the Word(God) was with God, and the Word(God) was God.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
You are wrong here, since logos λογος has the definite article in Greek =ὁ (all three times, pointing to the Word as the subject.)
ὁ λόγος = the Word, not “a Word”.
Since verse 14 says, “And the Word became flesh . . . ” – this means the Word who was God from all eternity, became a human, and obviously the whole chapter of John 1 is talking about Jesus Al Masih. The Father did NOT become flesh; rather the Son became flesh.
Of course God is One. All Trinitarians beleive that also. God is one in three. One nature in three persons.
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Trinitarians already believe all those OT verses you are putting up. You don’t make a point against the Trinity, since part of the doctrine of the Trinity includes all those verses, that “God is one”.
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Temple “Of course God is One. All Trinitarians beleive that also. God is one in three. One nature in three persons.”
No big deal. One What in three Who’s.
Same in humanity. Humanity is One. One nature in 7 billion persons.
Yes, “All Trinitarians beleive that also.” You believe in 3 gods – de facto.
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NO! استغفرالله
istaqfr’Allah!
there is only one God
Mark 12:29 – jesus quotes Deut. 6:4
1 Timothy 2:5
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Yes! The One God of Jesus is ONE WHO!
Your god is ONE WHAT! How many “Who’s” is your god?
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Ken Temple
You said;
Since verse 14 says, “And the Word became flesh . . . ” – this means the Word who was God from all eternity, became a human, and obviously the whole chapter of John 1 is talking about Jesus Al Masih. The Father did NOT become flesh; rather the Son became flesh.
Of course God is One. All Trinitarians beleive that also. God is one in three. One nature in three persons.
I say;
One God who was the Word became a human, but the other Person i.e. God the Father did not became a human, so we have 2 Gods here and One became a man and the other did not became a man, so obviously we are talking of 2 Gods here. Or 2 Persons and a Person is a Being, so it is a combination of either 2 human and divine beings or 2 divine beings and it is polytheism and it does not support the Jewish God is One, Only and Alone in the Bible.
Jews never knew their God is 3 Persons because it is not in their scripture. God will be an extremely wicked God to hide the fact that He is 3 Persons to Moses, Abraham, Isaac and all His messengers.
You said and I quote
“Since verse 14 says, “And the Word became flesh . . . ” – this means the Word who was God from all eternity, became a human”
I say;
You clearly stated that God became a human.
Question to you.
Are you not worshiping a man? Where in the Bible does it state that a man must be worshiped.
Another question.
The Bible said God is not a man and also God is immortal.
When this human died who controlled the creations? The other two Gods? Holy Spirit and God the Father? which makes it 3 Gods?
You said;
Of course God is One. All Trinitarians beleive that also. God is one in three. One nature in three persons.
I say;
Mormons believe God is one in more than 3 natures and you all the same. If you can fabricate three natures which is not part of the verses, then any one can make his own fabrication and add whatever he wants an make or create God the way he thinks and throw the verses away and that is catastrophic for ignoring what God said He is and adopting your man made God which is illogical like married bachelor.
All Rastafarians believe that also God is one in three. One nature in three persons
All Hindus believe Sai Baba is an incarnated God and believe God is one.
The Idol worshipers, at least most of them believe God is One.
Most Religions believe God is One, but in reality just like Trinitarians they do not believe in One God. They just say it. Why cant you believe, just like the verses said God is One, Only and Alone? but to add man made “3 Persons” which are not part of the verses. So you do not believe God is God is One. Just like other religions who claim to worship One God but in reality you are worshiping 3 Persons and each person is obviously a being and worshiping 3 beings is polytheism and\or idolatry.
Thanks
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Ken Temple
If God does not want us to worship any object i.e. man, why does He become an object man and expect us to worship Him? and hide His 3 Persons to the older generations of Abraham, Moses, Jacob etc.?
Thanks.
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” . . . so we have 2 Gods here and One became a man and the other did not became a man, so obviously we are talking of 2 Gods here.”
No; since there is only one God, that is why the early church interpreted John 1:1 as “the Word was with God” = the Son was with the Father (2 persons) in eternity past; and “The Word was God” (the Son/ the Word was God by nature, but not the same person). Hence One God in nature / substance /essece ذات ، جوهر and three in person اقنوم ، شخص (Greek: hypostasis; Latin: persona; English: person)
Why do you keep saying “2 gods” when I already told you Trinitarian Christians don’t believe in 2 or 3 gods?
You cannot impute something false to our beliefs when this has been explained over and over now.
there is no excuse, because of the internet, you could avail yourself of good and orthodox explainations of the doctrine of the Trinity. But you seem to refuse to even try and understand it.
Another thing – the early church did not use the Latin word “trinitas” by itself. it was always with “unitas” (one). Trinitas Unitas (three in one) – Theophilus of Antioch (180 Ad) Tertullian (180-220 AD) onward.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Why do you keep saying “2 gods” when I already told you Trinitarian Christians don’t believe in 2 or 3 gods?
You cannot impute something false to our beliefs when this has been explained over and over now.
there is no excuse, because of the internet, you could avail yourself of good and orthodox explainations of the doctrine of the Trinity. But you seem to refuse to even try and understand it.
I say;
It is just like Rastafarians saying that, Trinity has Emperor Haile Selaissie in it and so you Ken Temple must believe them. Will you believe them as Emperor Haile Selaissie is part of Trinity? because that is what the Rastafarians believe?
In the same way, the Jew like Rabbi Trovia Singer will not believe you to add “3 Persons” in his one God.
I as a Muslim, is arguing with you rational, logical and truth terms if I put my Islamic faith aside. You want me to believe 3 Persons who are 3 beings because every person is a being are One God(Being). It is wrong Sir, because 3 beings cannot be 1 being. It is impossible and you want me to believe that because that is what you believe. It is just like believing in Mormons because they believe God is so many. Will you believe God is so many as Mormons? because that is what they believe?
Would you believe idol worshipers who worships lesser Gods and insists they believe in One God? because the lesser gods are Gods extensions? because that is what they believe and their scholar has explained that to you and you accept idol worshipers worship one God?
If you will accept wholeheartedly and swear that idol worshipers worships one God because that is their believe, then I will also accept you and your Trinity. If you will not confess that idol worshipers worships one God, then I will not accept 3 persons as 1 God because it is 3 beings(persons) 1 being(divine being) and it is 3x=1x which is not true but lie.
Until you accept some odd God like Emperor Haile Selaissie of Ethiopia or Sai Baba of India as true God, I will not accept your odd God as Jesus of Nazareth.
Thanks.
Thanks
Proof.
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“You want me to believe 3 Persons who are 3 beings . . .
No; one being in three persons.
Shabir made lots of errors.
Mark was probably written around the same time as Galatians and I Thessalonians (48-51 AD); Matthew from around 50-60; Luke in 61-62 AD.
Acts in 62 AD. (we know this because of the abrupt was the book ends and does not tell us what happened to Paul in prison; he is still in prison (under house arrest) in Acts chapter 28, the last chapter. So it is wrong to say the gospels came after Paul writings. Paul wrote Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians and Philemon from prison during those 2 years in prison in Acts 28.
Only John was written later.
“Son of God” did not come from Greeks or Romans, but is affirmed about the Messiah in Psalm 2 and Proverbs 30.
Also, the virgin birth of Christ, which you also believe in, proves this was a Jewish idea (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6) and Luke 1:34-35 explains why we call Jesus the Son of God – because He had no human father (which you agree with, which the Qur’an teaches).
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”
34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:30-35
The Jewish leaders, Pharisees, and high priest knew the Messiah is the Son of God –
Mark 14:60-64
60 The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”
61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?
64 You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.
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Ken Temple
You said;
“You want me to believe 3 Persons who are 3 beings . . .
No; one being in three persons.
I say;
Mr. Ken, with all due respect one being cannot be three persons because every person is a being by himself, so the above believe is false, wrong and lie.
Evidence.
per·son
/ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun
noun: person; plural noun: people; plural noun: persons; noun: first person; noun: second person; noun: third person
1. a human being regarded as an individual.
“the porter was the last person to see her”
synonyms: human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature; personage, character, customer; informaltype, sort, cookie; informal,body, dog; archaicwight
“that person over there is the one who called the police”
•used in legal or formal contexts to refer to an unspecified individual.
“the entrance fee is $10.00 per person”
•an individual characterized by a preference or liking for a specified thing.
“she’s not a cat person”
•an individual’s body.
“I have publicity photographs on my person at all times”
•a character in a play or story.
“his previous roles in the person of a fallible cop”
2. Grammar
a category used in the classification of pronouns, possessive determiners, and verb forms, according to whether they indicate the speaker first person, the addressee second person, or a third party third person.
Source of dictionary
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=gTT0VfWyC-XK8gfKr4OABw&gws_rd=ssl#q=person+meaning
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
Ken Temple
You said;
“You want me to believe 3 Persons who are 3 beings . . .
No; one being in three persons.
I say;
I am reminding you that, you are completely wrong like the Mormons who believe so many persons are God and most idol worshipers believe so many persons and objects are Gods. You have limited yours to 3 Persons/beings. Rastafarians have Emperor Haile Selaissie as part of your Trinity. You are all wrong, because there are no how much Persons are God in the Bible.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
Hear Dr. James White believe the Mormons are polytheistic because they believe God is man and so many men and that is polytheistic. My dear learned Dr. James White might have forgot( or may be in a planet mars) to believe he does not believe Jesus as man is God with other persons and that is as polytheistic as Mormons.
Rabbi Trovia Singer is not happy with both Christians and Mormons but is happy with the Muslim God and in one of his(Rabbi Singers) clip he said Allahu Akbar and believe in that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JimVR4cI_8
Rastafarianism, Christianity, Mormonism and the rest are all polytheist, because their number of persons as God is not in the Bible
Thanks.
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Most Christians believe in one God and not three. The main problem is that God can be a man. Being a man is something a God cannot be. Therefore we as Muslims dismiss this theology. One cannot say at the same time God is not a spacial thing and Jesus is God. Jesus is obviously spacial.
The Quran when it mentions Trinity is more likely adressing the Dyophysite version of Trinity which was and is even now widespread among Middle East-Christians.
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Intellect:
Wrong again. Mormons believe that God was once a man in the past and later evolved into a god; and they believe in millions of gods. Christians don’t believet that. God was not a man before the 2nd person of the Trinity became a man. Very different. Man evolving into a god is different than God becoming a man.
I understand the difficulty you are having with the word “person”. You cannot read the English dictionary and read that back into the theology of it.
The Cappadocian fathers used a very unique word in Greek – hupostasis – which points to something that exists under the reality of the one being/essence. Since the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit relate to one another and communicate with each other, that aspect is on personal relationship.
hupo-stasis was translated into Syrian and then Arabic and Farsi as “uqnoom” اقنوم – but it came from another Greek word that points to mind, will, counsel (see below)
اقنوم (uqnoom)
Came from Greek, γνώμη
(Gnome)
Which meant, “mind, purpose, judgment, opinion, counsel, will, consciousness, thought”
This is the word that the eastern churches (Syrian, Assyrian) (today, most of the Eastern and Roman Catholic Churches use this in Arabic (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Coptic Church in Egypt) and Farsi ( Iran)) chose for “hupo-stasis”
Based on all the Scriptures that say “the Father sends the Son”, “the Son prays to the Father”; “The Spirit testifies to the Son”, etc. – it was seen that under the one substance/essence of God, there were three personal relationships, hence three persons.
A Roman Catholic made this comment about my comments about Uqnoom and gnome:
“Also, in perhaps the first time I will have ever agreed with Ken Temple, I think he is right about the linkage between hypostasis and the concept of gnome, which conveys individuality”
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Cappadocian fathers = Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus, who lived in the 300s AD and were the main theologians behind the Council of Constantinople of 381 AD. (along with Athanasius’ earlier influence)
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God can enter into His creation and become flesh if He wants to, because He did it, without sinning, as proven by the Virgin conception in the womb of Mary, which even the Qur’an affirms.
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Ken could you should show me a verse in the Jewish scriptures where God reveals through his prophets (or anywhere else) that he is 3 persons in 1 God?
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Ken Temple
You said;
Intellect:
Wrong again. Mormons believe that God was once a man in the past and later evolved into a god; and they believe in millions of gods. Christians don’t believet that. God was not a man before the 2nd person of the Trinity became a man. Very different. Man evolving into a god is different than God becoming a man.
I say;
What is the difference of “Man became Goat” and “Goat became Man”. It is the same thing Sir Ken. You believed like Mormons God was once a Man(Jesus) with the Father. If not, then God changed his structure by adding a man into it. In the Bible God does not change.
Proof.
Psalms 102:25-27
“Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. “Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. “But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end
Ok. that is what Shabbir Ally was saying like the demons Jesus cast out from the humans who were initially not present in the 100% man, will leave the 100% man as 100% man and does not make the man a demon and in similar way, before the 2nd Person of the Trinity took the form of a man, the man Jesus is 100% man and not God and so just like the demons will cause their victims to be doing weird things, the victims are not demons but men or women. So Jesus is not God but man especially if he(Jesus) is in toilet, the Holy God will go to heaven and leave Jesus alone to finish his toilet for him to come back and take Jesus form to do whatever he wants to do, that He(God) cannot do without Jesus(man’s) form.
Almighty God cannot do something unless he takes on human form. Only in Christianity, that Almighty God has to take a human form before He can do something.
You worship Jesus(man) and does that not make you a Mormon? in that, that man Jesus evolved into god for you to worship? Do not distinguish yourself from Mormons, I bet you are the same in all aspect and I have more time to prove that. A Unitarian Christian is out of this mess, because he is worshiping the same One God as Jews and Muslims, but Trinitarians are exactly like Mormons and are polytheists and if you twist things to make them different from Trinitarians, I will humbly point your mistakes.
Mormons believe in persons as God and Trinitarians also believe in persons as God and is the same and no difference. But Mormons believe in millions of persons and Trinitarians believe in only 3 persons. If you have million dollars and some one has 3 dollars, will you say the one with 3 dollars has no any money in him? No, all of them have money in them.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
I understand the difficulty you are having with the word “person”. You cannot read the English dictionary and read that back into the theology of it.
The Cappadocian fathers used a very unique word in Greek – hupostasis – which points to something that exists under the reality of the one being/essence. Since the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit relate to one another and communicate with each other, that aspect is on personal relationship.
hupo-stasis was translated into Syrian and then Arabic and Farsi as “uqnoom” اقنوم – but it came from another Greek word that points to mind, will, counsel (see below)
I say;
But you read the English dictionary “Person/person” into your theology? and accuse me of doing the same? If you do not like “3 Persons/persons” which is English dictionary, then remove it. That is why Rabbi Trovia Singer and most Jews and of course the Quran are telling you to do and stick to the following verses which has no “3 Persons/persons” in them.
Clear verses of salvation from the time of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jesus etc. that says God is One, Only and Alone without a single “3 Persons/persons 1 God” in them.
2.”there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
3.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
4.”Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
5.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
1.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
6.”You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
7.”For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
8.”Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
1.”You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
10.”For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
1.”You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
11.”Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
Mr. Ken the last verse is warning you by forming another God in “3 Persons/persons” , “Jesus”, “Man”, “God-Man”, “hypostasis” etc. and adding those to the Only, One and Alone God of Israel. Desist, it is better for you.
GOD IS NOT A WICKED GOD TO HIDE A SALVATION IN THE FORM OF “3 PERSONS” TO HIS SERVANTS. BECAUSE GOD IS A GOOD GOD, HE MADE SALVATION IN CLARITY AND IN SO MANY VERSES AS HE IS ONE, ONLY AND ALONE AND NO SINGLE UNSALVATION OF “3 PERSONS IN 1 GOD” IN THE WHOLE BIBLE INCLUDING THE GNOSTIC ONES.
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Ken Temple
You said;
God can enter into His creation and become flesh if He wants to, because He did it, without sinning, as proven by the Virgin conception in the womb of Mary, which even the Qur’an affirms.
I say;
Yes, He can become flesh in the form of Sai Baba, and Emperor Haile Selaissie too, if He wants to. So we have Jesus Christ, Sai Baba of India, his Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selaissie I. Jah Rastafari, the conqueror of the Lion of Judah and so many incarnated Gods as Gods just like Jesus Christ is God. If God can incarnate into man, then He has incarnated into so many men and it is against the Bible to worship a man. If God said we should not worship any object and of course including man, why should He became man and expect us to worship Him?
Thanks.
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Ken could you should show me a verse in the Jewish scriptures where God reveals through his prophets (or anywhere else) that he is 3 persons in 1 God?
Hi Paul,
Why is that necessary to limit it to the OT?
Your Qur’an says that the Injeel and the Qur’an are two more Scriptures, along with the Torah, and the Zobur of David (Psalms). So even you cannot limit your own revelation to just the Torah and Psalms.
Even in the OT, there are hints and indications of a plurality within Unity – the fact that Elohim (God) is plural, but One God.
Genesis 1:1-3 – God, the Spirit hovering over the waters, and the spoken word, “Be!”. (in the beginning was the Word (logos = mind expressing itself out in communication and words.)
Psalm 110:1
Daniel 7:13-14
But it was not revealed completely yet.
The Incarnation revealed the 2nd person of the Trinity; and the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost revealed the 3rd Person more fully.
The fullness of revelation is in the New Testament, the Injeel.
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thanks for all that Ken. I see you have not been able to cite a single verse in the entire Jewish scriptures – remember this was the Bible of Jesus and the disciples – that speak of the deity in terms of 3 persons in 1 God. The few you refer to certainly do not say this. But the great monotheistic sermons about the nature of God in Isaiah 40–55 and elsewhere conspicuously fail to mention your doctrine of three persons in one god. In fact God is always one person, not two or three or four.
This fact is extremely significant and most revealing.
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Yes, He can become flesh in the form of Sai Baba, and Emperor Haile Selaissie too, if He wants to. So we have Jesus Christ, Sai Baba of India, his Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selaissie I. etc.
No, because the NT (the Injeel) closed revelation and limits the Trinity to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14, etc.
Your illustrations are silly.
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Rabbi Tovia Singer is a folllower of the Judaism that rejected Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح . He would have been with the Pharisees and high priest and against the followers of Jesus. The Qur’an says the followers of Jesus were honest, faithful, believers, helpers of God, and they became the uppermost and victorious. Qur’an Surah 61:14
To go with his views is to go against Qur’an 61:14.
God judged that generation of unbelieving Jews by bringing judgment on them in the Jewish War against the Romans for 7 years and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. The whole war was from 66 – 73 AD. The temple was destroyed in the middle of that 7 years. 73 AD was Masada and the mass suicide.
Singer and modern Jews who reject the Messiah Jesus are the descendents of those that were scattered out from Israel, but they are still in rejection of Messiah.
We pray for them and you.
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https://video-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xft1/v/t43.1792-2/11048454_844047705664807_1841738639_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjE1MDAsInJsYSI6NDA5Nn0%3D&rl=1500&vabr=814&oh=8c593ff92aeb48272f2c524461d7519d&oe=55F58EDC
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thanks for all that Ken. I see you have not been able to cite a single verse in the entire Jewish scriptures – remember this was the Bible of Jesus and the disciples – that speak of the deity in terms of 3 persons in 1 God. The few you refer to certainly do not say this. But the great monotheistic sermons about the nature of God in Isaiah 40–55 and elsewhere conspicuously fail to mention your doctrine of three persons in one god. In fact God is always spoken of as one person, not two or three or four.
This fact is extremely significant and most revealing.
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Proof.
Psalms 102:25-27
“Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. “Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. “But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end
I am glad you quoted this passage; it is quoted in Hebrews 1:10-12 and one of the proofs of the Deity of Christ.
Boom. Your argument failed.
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You believed like Mormons God was once a Man(Jesus) with the Father.
Not true; Jesus was not a man before He became a man in the womb of Mary (Luke 1:30-35) – before that, He was the Word/ the Son in a purely spiritual form. John 17:5 – He was “the Son” – but He was spirit; He had no human nature or human body before the incarnation and virgin birth. He was the Word from all eternity. John 1:1-5 – He is the Word, eternal, creator, light, life.
John 1:14 – only later did He become flesh/ human.
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Many OT passages speak of the one to come who would be Messiah and have the same nature as God.
Isaiah 7:14 – God with us, Immanuel, born of a virgin.
Isaiah 9:6 – “a Son will be born to us . . . and He will be called “Mighty God”, “prince of peace”, “wonderful counselor”.
Daniel 7:13-14 – the one who rules with the Ancient of Days will be given a kingdom and people from all nations will worship Him. (lxx – letreuo – worship due only to God.)
Psalm 110:1 – the LORD (Yahweh) says to My Lord (Adonai) – both are translated in the Injeel (NT) in Matthew 22 and Mark 10 as kurios κυριος = Lord. (Al Rabb)
Psalm 2:1-12 – the Messiah is the King and the Son – worship and bow down and kiss the Son, lest He become angry and you perish in the way.
That is why even the high priest and Pharisees KNEW that Messiah is also the Son of God:
Mark 14:60-61
and when Jesus said, ‘I am”, they said, “He has committed blasphemy”. They knew what He was claiming by quoting both Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13-14
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Also Micah 5:2
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”
Quoted in Matthew 2 as proof of Messiah being born in Bethlehem. He is also eternal – same OT concept as “the Ancient of Days” – He shares the same nature as the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:13-14.
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Salaam.
Micah 5:2 is not like that, if you research these words: “from long ago, from the days of eternity.” in Hebrew the words never show the person/idol/object/people being from eternity, there is a good lecture on this by a Rabbi and he goes through each one of these verses – the verse simply means a long time ago. This could be alluding to the lineage of the Messiah (peace be upon him) being old in Israel, or the concept of the eventual Messiah being old.
In fact if we read on we see how this figure really cannot be God, (Exalted be He), but must be His Slave:
“….he will stand and shepherd his flock in **the strength of the LORD**, in **the majesty of the name of the LORD** **his God**…”
I do not think I need to mention how this shows him to be a man, it is quite clear I believe.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Yes, He can become flesh in the form of Sai Baba, and Emperor Haile Selaissie too, if He wants to. So we have Jesus Christ, Sai Baba of India, his Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selaissie I. etc.
No, because the NT (the Injeel) closed revelation and limits the Trinity to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14, etc.
Your illustrations are silly.
I say;
Where in the NT does it say “God limited Himself to Trinity”. Mr. Ken, you are putting personal limitation of 3 to the One God of Israel who never said He was/is 3 Persons/persons/man/men/gods/Gods/divines/hypostasis/God-Man etc. Show me in the Bible where it says “God has a limit of 3 Persons/person”?
If you are not able to show me this proof like the following verses which are clear about salvation then I am not silly but a one who use my intellect and follow scripture i.e. the Bible/Quran to tell the truth.
Proof of clarity of salvation in the scripture both new and old testament that God is One, Only and Alone and no proof of un salvation “3 Persons/persons 1 God in the whole scripture both new and old testament.
2.”there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
3.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
4.”Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
5.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
1.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
6.”You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
7.”For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
8.”Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
1.”You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
10.”For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
1.”You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
11.”Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
Like the clear verses above, if God wanted to limit himself to only 3 Persons/persons He would have clearly stated it clearly like the above verses in other not to hide salvation from us. He would state it clear as ” Yahweh has a limitation of 3 Persons/persons”, so that it will be clear for us like the above clear verses of God is One, Only and Alone. If you are not able to provide a clear verse of God limiting Himself to 3 Persons/persons in the whole Bible including the gnostic ones, then my argument stands and it makes sense, since there is no clear limitations of God to 3 Persons/persons in the Bible, then Emperor Haile Selaissie and all incarnated Gods are all Gods like Jesus Christ and are indeed his(Jesus) Christs brothers or creatures in God-Man and they will be called “Godmanity”.
I used clearly 2 times in my statement, I know it is wrong, but I WANT TO STRESS A POINT. Salvation, that involves burning fire in hell must be clear to us Mr. Ken. If it is not clear and not in the Bible like the above, then it is not salvation and cannot be salvation.
Where does it say in the Bible “The limit of Trinity is God the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit”. I do not see that in the verses you cited. Trinity, hypostasis, God-Man, 3 Persons 1 God etc. are all not in the whole Bible and to cite some crude verses to support yourself and disclaim other incarnated gods is intellectual dishonesty.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Ken could you should show me a verse in the Jewish scriptures where God reveals through his prophets (or anywhere else) that he is 3 persons in 1 God?
Hi Paul,
Why is that necessary to limit it to the OT?
Your Qur’an says that the Injeel and the Qur’an are two more Scriptures, along with the Torah, and the Zobur of David (Psalms). So even you cannot limit your own revelation to just the Torah and Psalms.
Even in the OT, there are hints and indications of a plurality within Unity – the fact that Elohim (God) is plural, but One God.
Genesis 1:1-3 – God, the Spirit hovering over the waters, and the spoken word, “Be!”. (in the beginning was the Word (logos = mind expressing itself out in communication and words.)
Psalm 110:1
Daniel 7:13-14
But it was not revealed completely yet.
The Incarnation revealed the 2nd person of the Trinity; and the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost revealed the 3rd Person more fully.
The fullness of revelation is in the New Testament, the Injeel.
I say;
It is limited to the old testament because that is the first scripture revealed by God and known to man where He(God) clearly an unequivocally stated in numerous passages that He(God) is One, Only and Alone and He(God) alone is to be worshiped as He(God) is said to be in the first revealed scripture known to man.
Any prophet or scripture that said God is anything more than One, Only and Alone God is a false prophet and false scripture. The description of God in the old testament is the litmus test of a false prophet.
In fact because of its importance, and for the mercy and sincerity of God Almighty He keep repeating that over and over that He is One, Only and Alone to be worshiped. If the “3 Persons/persons 1 God” is important, He would have stated it clearly, at least once. He never did that in the whole Bible including the new testament and the gnostic gospels.
3 Persons/persons 1 God has to be decided by men like Ken Temple to form a God, the way the like and it is not in the Bible and it is a big blaspheme and punishable by hell fire.
Besides a word of God, mercy of God, speech of God, love of God etc. and all attributes of God are all not God Himself and are not Beings or divine beings.
Word of God is not divine being but word of God as it is called. You can say it is eternal or not eternal and it is not necessary whether it is eternal or not but it is not God Himself but His word.
Mercy of God is not divine being but Mercy of God as it is called. You can say it is eternal or not eternal and it is not necessary whether it is eternal or not but it is not God Himself but His Mercy.
Quran is the word of God but obviously, the Quran is not God. You can confuse yourself and say it is eternal or not eternal, but whatever it is whether eternal or not eternal, does not make it God, because the Quran, word of God, mercy of God, love of God and all Gods attributes are obviously not God Himself but His attributes and any one who refers to God attribute as God Himself is in error and blaspheme and must repent.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Rabbi Tovia Singer is a folllower of the Judaism that rejected Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح . He would have been with the Pharisees and high priest and against the followers of Jesus. The Qur’an says the followers of Jesus were honest, faithful, believers, helpers of God, and they became the uppermost and victorious. Qur’an Surah 61:14
To go with his views is to go against Qur’an 61:14.
God judged that generation of unbelieving Jews by bringing judgment on them in the Jewish War against the Romans for 7 years and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. The whole war was from 66 – 73 AD. The temple was destroyed in the middle of that 7 years. 73 AD was Masada and the mass suicide.
Singer and modern Jews who reject the Messiah Jesus are the descendents of those that were scattered out from Israel, but they are still in rejection of Messiah.
We pray for them and you.
I say;
We are talking about who God said He is/was in the Rabbi Trovia and His Jewish ancestors scripture and it is clear God said He is One, Only and Alone. Rejecting Jesus as a messiah is another matter, but it is clear Rabbi Trovia Ancestors from the time of Moses and Jesus never believed God is man, God-Man, 3 Persons/persons 1 God, Trinity, Hypostasis etc. and it is not in their scripture but that Trinitarian God was formed by men and that is what we are talking here and he is right to question Trinitarians for adding “3 Persons/persons” to his God.
Correction
Mr. Ken, the Quran did not say the believers of Jesus were man/God-man/hypostasis/3 Persons/persons 1 God worshipers but it said the followers of Jesus but did not say the worshipers of Jesus. So, if you worship Jesus, the Quran is not talking about you because it clearly states, the FOLLOWERS of Jesus, not the WORSHIPERS of Jesus as you erroneously wants us to believe. Quran clearly denies Jesus is God.
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You said;
Proof.
Psalms 102:25-27
“Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. “Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. “But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end
I am gladI you quoted this passage; it is quoted in Hebrews 1:10-12 and one of the proofs of the Deity of Christ.
Boom. Your argument failed.
I say;
It can be quoted in Hebrews by whoever the writer of Hebrews is but the verse said God is the same and will not be changed, but Jesus, as a man who was not God before God took his form clearly indicates a changed God and a God who was not the same and it is against the verse quoted in Hebrew by whoever the writer is.
You said;
Many OT passages speak of the one to come who would be Messiah and have the same nature as God.
Isaiah 7:14 – God with us, Immanuel, born of a virgin.
Isaiah 9:6 – “a Son will be born to us . . . and He will be called “Mighty God”, “prince of peace”, “wonderful counselor”.
Daniel 7:13-14 – the one who rules with the Ancient of Days will be given a kingdom and people from all nations will worship Him. (lxx – letreuo – worship due only to God.)
Psalm 110:1 – the LORD (Yahweh) says to My Lord (Adonai) – both are translated in the Injeel (NT) in Matthew 22 and Mark 10 as kurios κυριος = Lord. (Al Rabb)
Psalm 2:1-12 – the Messiah is the King and the Son – worship and bow down and kiss the Son, lest He become angry and you perish in the way.
That is why even the high priest and Pharisees KNEW that Messiah is also the Son of God:
Mark 14:60-61
and when Jesus said, ‘I am”, they said, “He has committed blasphemy”. They knew what He was claiming by quoting both Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13-14
I say;
We are serious here, and lack of clarity in God salvation is unacceptable because he made it clear in various passages that He is One, Only and Alone. To add a Son or a Holy Spirit to it without clarity is blaspheme.
With all due respect My dear Ken, non of the above passages clearly states that Jesus Christ is God and no Jew, from then till now who have their scripture in their language and understand their scripture ever dreamt the messiah will be God. Mary never called Jesus Immanuel, Mighty God and no disciple of Jesus ever called him Immanuel.
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Ken Temple
You said;
You believed like Mormons God was once a Man(Jesus) with the Father.
Not true; Jesus was not a man before He became a man in the womb of Mary (Luke 1:30-35) – before that, He was the Word/ the Son in a purely spiritual form. John 17:5 – He was “the Son” – but He was spirit; He had no human nature or human body before the incarnation and virgin birth. He was the Word from all eternity. John 1:1-5 – He is the Word, eternal, creator, light, life.
John 1:14 – only later did He become flesh/ human.
I say;
You indicated that the Almighty God did changed in structure by adding human body to Himself and that is blaspheme and against the Bible. God does not change or die.
Proofs
Malachi 3:6
English Standard Version
“For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
New American Standard Bible
“For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows
Numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
Habakkuk 1:12
LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish
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Temple “Even in the OT, there are hints and indications of a plurality within Unity – the fact that Elohim (God) is plural, but One God.
The fullness of revelation is in the New Testament, the Injeel.”
First of all: The NT is NOT the Injeel. Stop misrepresenting clear divine revelation.
“Even in the OT, there are hints and indications of a plurality within Unity” What kind of “revelation” is this?
Why are we expected to “discover” God is three persons? Why is this three person being so elusive about His true identity?
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Ken Temple
You said;
Even in the OT, there are hints and indications of a plurality within Unity – the fact that Elohim (God) is plural, but One God.
Genesis 1:1-3 – God, the Spirit hovering over the waters, and the spoken word, “Be!”. (in the beginning was the Word (logos = mind expressing itself out in communication and words.)
I say;
hints, hints, hints
clear, clear, clear
My friend! Why should God hints Himself when He clearly states He is One, Only and Alone? The hint is something else but not a hint about who God is at all because He had CLEARLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY stated who He is/was. One divine being cannot have other persons/beings to make Him We but in the semetic languages We as a plural of Majesty is used. The Jews never accept the We to be so many persons/beings i.e. divines or combination of divine and humans. Muslims in their Arab semetic language have God saying We in so many occasions in the Quran but no Muslim or a Jew will consider it to be multiple persons/beings or divine beings but Only One, and Alone divine being speaking in His Majesty.
Mr. Ken, there is Hell which is a burning fire for stubbornness in forming a God the way human like God to be, than following the clarity of scripture, so follow the clarity as Rabbi Trovia Singer said and stop the hints. God did not hint to describe how He want to be to Moses, Jesus, Abraham etc. but clearly stated He is One, Alone and Only but not “3 Persons/persons 1 God”
Proofs
“The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; ” Mark 12:29
“to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
“there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17- Jesus was not immortal and was seen, so he is not God.
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” Zechariah 14:9
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.” Matthew 6:24
“you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?” John 5:44
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16
I still have more verses that clearly states that God is One, Only and Alone but not a single verse that said “3 Persons/persons in 1 God” , So 3 Persons/persons 1 God is man made and borrowed from the Greek, Romans and the Pagan concept of God and it is what man want God to be and it is dangerous to ignore the clarity of the scriptures to follow the wishes of man.
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First of all: The NT is NOT the Injeel. Stop misrepresenting clear divine revelation.
Wrong. The fact that the NT was written some 500 + years before the Qur’an and the Qur’an calls the revelation of Jesus Al Masih the Injeel (The Gospel) shows that the Injeel is the New Testament. The Injeel was written between 45 AD – 96 AD, most of it was complete by 69 AD; whereas the Qur’an came about 600 years later.
To claim that the Injeel was lost some time between 30 AD and 45 AD, never to be recovered, when the Qur’an confirms the Injeel of the Christians at the time of Muhammad ( 610-632 AD) is to contradict Surah 5:47; 10:94; 5:68 and other passages. Since the Qur’an also affirms that the disciples of Jesus became victorious (Surah 3:52; 3:55; 61:14 means that the New Testament is true; and the true Injeel.
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Many Jews of the first century AD did accept Jesus as God in the flesh, etc. Most all of the Christians of the first 100 years were Jews. Peter, James, John, Paul, Andrew, Thomas, Mary, Matthew, etc. You are forgetting that.
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Temple stop lying. The Injeel is the message given to Isa (as). You don’t have that. There are snippets of that message recorded in the NT at best. This is confirmed by serious biblical scholarship.
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Temple, could you answer a simple question? How many “Who’s” is your god?
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Micah 5:2 is not like that, if you research these words: “from long ago, from the days of eternity.” in Hebrew the words never show the person/idol/object/people being from eternity, . . . ”
Wrong. The suffix of the Hebrew word “goings forth” are 3rd singular masculine (of His) – and the referent is the person who will be born in Bethlehem and be a ruler in Israel. Also there is no other Hebrew word to communicate “forever” and “eternity past” ( Olam = אלום) . This word is used a lot in the Hebrew Bible, the first instance is in Genesis 3:22 – “lest they eat it and live forever”.
there is a good lecture on this by a Rabbi and he goes through each one of these verses – the verse simply means a long time ago. This could be alluding to the lineage of the Messiah (peace be upon him) being old in Israel, or the concept of the eventual Messiah being old.
Of course a modern Rabbi is going to try and downplay this verse, and water down the meaning, but it is a clear parallel and same concept as the “Ancient of Days” in Daniel 7:9 and 7:13-14, which all Jews admit is about God.
“….he will stand and shepherd his flock in **the strength of the LORD**, in **the majesty of the name of the LORD** **his God**…”
This is not a problem for the doctrine of the incarnation and the Trinity, since the second person of the Trinity, the Son, humbled Himself and became a man for 33 years on earth, of course He operated in the strength of the LORD, depending on the Holy Spirit (who is also God), and depending and trusting in His Father, who is also God, so it is not a problem nor a contradiction. As James White rightly says, “Do you think He would be or act like an atheist while on earth? Of course not.”
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Olam = אלום – is used for both eternity past and eternity future, depending on the contexts. The verses in Daniel 7:9, 13-14 and Micah 5:2 have other words for ancient and old that make it clear that Messiah would be from eternity past.
The Jewish leaders knew the Messiah would be the Son of God – they asked Jesus, “Are You the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” He said, “I am”. (Mark 14:60-64; Matthew 26:63 – “tell us whether You are the Messiah, the Son of God”) Then they tore their robes and cried out “blasphemy”. You and no one else has every explained how the Jews admitted by their question that they knew the Messiah would be God by nature also, the Son of God. (Psalm 2:1-12; Proverbs 30:2-4)
Surely I am more stupid than any man,
And I do not have the understanding of a man.
3 Neither have I learned wisdom,
Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His Son’s name?
Surely you know!
Proverbs 30:2-4
Psalm 2:1-12
Why are the nations in an uproar
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the Lord and against His Messiah,
saying,
3 “Let us tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!”
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury, saying,
6 “But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9 ‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”
10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
11 Worship the Lord with reverence
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!
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I am not lying; so stop writing that. You have to make better arguments than that of just ad hominem type of attacks.
Since the Injeel we have today is the same as the copies of manuscripts we have that date back to 120 AD (the fragment from John 18) and many manuscripts before 600 AD, and the Qur’an says “let the people of the gospel judge by what is therein” (in the gospel), at the the time of the Qur’an, it confirms the same Injeel / NT that we have today. (taking into account the textual variants, we still have the same message and text.)
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Temple, How many “Who’s” is your god? Let’s start counting, shall we?
“He operated in the strength of the LORD, depending on the Holy Spirit (who is also God), and depending and trusting in His Father, who is also God,”
That’s 3 “Who’s” already.
And WHO is speaking here: “I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God;” (Isaiah 45:5) ?
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Temple of doom, yes, you are lying. Where is the message given to Isa (as). Produce a copy, if you are not lying.
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” . . . no disciple of Jesus ever called him Immanuel.
Yes, the disciple Matthew did, in Matthew 1:21-23.
Also, the disciple John called Jesus “God” – John 1:1-5.
The disciple Thomas called Jesus, “LORD” (kurios, Yahweh) and God (Elohim, Allah الله ) – John 20:28.
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John 17:8 – Jesus praying to the Father –
“the words that You gave to Me, I have given to them (the apostles/disciples)”
John 16
“when the Holy Spirit comes, He will lead you into all the truth”
all in the current New Testament, the true Injeel.
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Temple, stop lying. You say “and the Qur’an says “let the people of the gospel judge by what is therein””
No the Quran doesn’t say that.
“And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. 5:47”
Lying and misquoting. The usual missionary tactics.
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The doctrine of the Trinity is from two words in Latin, “Trinitas Unitas” – “three in One” – three persons in One God. There is only one God. I have already explained this many times.
You need to read an entire book on the subject, and also read the New Testament in context, verse by verse, book by book – beginniing to end.
I recommend:
1. The Forgotten Trinity, by James White
2. Delighing in the Trinity, by Michael Reeves
3. Is the Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad? (Timothy George)
4. Why You Should Believe in the Trinity (Robert Bowman)
5. The Holy Trinity, by Robert Letham
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“And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. 5:47”
That’s even better, thanks. Same thing though. I was going by memory. This is better because it says Allah has revealed the truth in the Gospel, “therein” = in the gospel itself.
Good; thanks.
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Temple, you are running and running and running, but you cannot run away from yourself.
“The one what is the one Being or essence of God; the three who’s are the Father, Son, and Spirit. We dare not mix up the what’s and who’s regarding the Trinity. (James White The Forgotten Trinity, p. 27).
Can you answer a simple question Mr. preacher man:
WHO of the three WHO`s is speaking here: “I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God;” (Isaiah 45:5) ?
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Isaiah 45:5 is not a problem to the doctrine of the Trinity, since the doctrine teaches there is only one God in substance, but three divine persons are sharing the same spiritual substance. God is unique; so there is nothing comparable to Him.
Same one who spoke in Isaiah 43:10-13 and which Jesus the Son points back to by saying “I am” in John 8:24, 8:56-58; 13:19, etc. The Father is speaking as the “who”, but the Son also says He is the same by nature / substance, which points to one What (one substance, essence, nature), but three in person.
“Your greatness and nature is unsearchable” Psalm 145:3
God is so great that you cannot grasp this deep truth with your human mind alone. You need Jesus to open your mind – Luke 24:45; Acts 16:14; 2 Cor. 4:4-6. Someone else is blinding your mind.
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Temple, you claim the NT is the original Injeel. And “… Allah has revealed the truth in the Gospel,”
So Allah has revealed Jesus (as) was crucified on two different days? On the 1st day of passover (synoptics) AND on the day before (in John).
This is your “revealed truth”. Keep on running.
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Temple. Just answer the question: WHO of the three WHO`s is speaking here: “I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God;” (Isaiah 45:5) ?
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Temple: “God is unique; so there is nothing comparable to Him.” WHO is this “HE”, you are talking about here?
Is it the Father you are talking about? (1 Who/He)
The Son? (1 Who/He)
The HS (1 Who/He)
Is it a forth “WHO”? The triune being, the “trinity”, is ONE WHO/He?
Or three WHO´s?
Or four? Yes, four at least.
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Already answered that above.
Same one who spoke in Isaiah 43:10-13 and which Jesus the Son points back to by saying “I am” in John 8:24, 8:56-58; 13:19, etc. The Father is speaking as the “who”, but the Son also says He is the same by nature / substance, which points to one What (one substance, essence, nature), but three in person.
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Temple: “The Father is speaking as the “who””
So the Father says “besides me there is no God;”
If the trinity is true, God was lying. My advice to you: you better stop lying, Temple.
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Ken Temple
You said;
First of all: The NT is NOT the Injeel. Stop misrepresenting clear divine revelation.
Wrong. The fact that the NT was written some 500 + years before the Qur’an and the Qur’an calls the revelation of Jesus Al Masih the Injeel (The Gospel) shows that the Injeel is the New Testament. The Injeel was written between 45 AD – 96 AD, most of it was complete by 69 AD; whereas the Qur’an came about 600 years later.
To claim that the Injeel was lost some time between 30 AD and 45 AD, never to be recovered, when the Qur’an confirms the Injeel of the Christians at the time of Muhammad ( 610-632 AD) is to contradict Surah 5:47; 10:94; 5:68 and other passages. Since the Qur’an also affirms that the disciples of Jesus became victorious (Surah 3:52; 3:55; 61:14 means that the New Testament is true; and the true Injeel.
I say;
The Gospels of Mark, Thomas, Luke, Mathew, John, Epistle of Banabas, the Gospel of Judas, Shepherd hermas, More books of the Catholics, Less books of the protestants, Different books of the Ethiopian Church, Long and short endings of Mark, Mathews ghostly stories of ghost from their graves in the street of Jerusalem which is fake, the poison and the snake passages that Dr. James White will not preach in his church and many more has disqualify what Christians have from the time of our prophet till today as an Injeel (Gospel of Jesus).
The Quran said, the injeel was given to Jesus himself but not Mark, Mathew etc. Besides the Christians and the Church Fathers had to canonize some stories about Jesus circulating and select some and reject some and there is no evidence God Almighty tells them the one He breathed is the ones they selected, so there are other gospels or stories of Jesus that did not make it into the NT. Some stories like the Shepherd Hemas and Epistle of Banabas was once part of the gospels but not in it now. So all these has disqualified the current NT and the NT at the time of our prophet as Injeel.
You said;
To claim that the Injeel was lost some time between 30 AD and 45 AD, never to be recovered, when the Qur’an confirms the Injeel of the Christians at the time of Muhammad ( 610-632 AD) is to contradict Surah 5:47; 10:94; 5:68 and other passages. Since the Qur’an also affirms that the disciples of Jesus became victorious (Surah 3:52; 3:55; 61:14 means that the New Testament is true; and the true Injeel.
I say;
The Quran did not say injeel was lost and never to be recovered but said it came as the final scripture to correct the old scriptures and it is the guide to the true religion of God and that is why Dr. James White said the Quran and Islam has made a U-turn back to monotheism and the One, Only true God of Abraham.
The Jews said Jesus is not the messiah but the Quran clearly said Jesus is the messiah and corrected them and Christians will agree with the Quran.
The Trinitarians said, Jesus is God but the Quran said, Jesus is not God and the Jews and the clear statement and some Christians like the Jehovah Witness and the Unitarians will agree with the Quran.
The Quran did not confirm the Injeel of the Christians during our prophets time but said the people of the book has in their book that God is One, Only and Alone and will be judged by that i.e. what is revealed there in. Obviously ¨”Three persons one God” was not revealed therein, so anyone who has a belief a “Three persons 1 God” without using his intellect to see it contradicts with what the scripture revealed and is in the scripture as clear as One, Only and Alone God has himself to be blamed when he is being punished for idol worshiping.
The disciples of Jesus believed God is One, Only and Alone because you cannot find in the new Testament where it says “God is three persons in 1 God”, so the disciples of Jesus did not believe the NT if it said so because it is not in there.
Thanks
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You said;
Many Jews of the first century AD did accept Jesus as God in the flesh, etc. Most all of the Christians of the first 100 years were Jews. Peter, James, John, Paul, Andrew, Thomas, Mary, Matthew, etc. You are forgetting that.
I say;
Are they more than the Jews who did not accept Jesus as God then and now? No. So Jews did not accept Jesus as God. Most who believed in Jesus did not accept him as God and they are Arians, Ebionites etc. and Arius was tortured and his followers persecuted. Emperor Constantine persecuted those who will not accept Jesus as God.
You said;
Micah 5:2 is not like that, if you research these words: “from long ago, from the days of eternity.” in Hebrew the words never show the person/idol/object/people being from eternity, . . . ”
Wrong. The suffix of the Hebrew word “goings forth” are 3rd singular masculine (of His) – and the referent is the person who will be born in Bethlehem and be a ruler in Israel. Also there is no other Hebrew word to communicate “forever” and “eternity past” ( Olam = אלום) . This word is used a lot in the Hebrew Bible, the first instance is in Genesis 3:22 – “lest they eat it and live forever”.
there is a good lecture on this by a Rabbi and he goes through each one of these verses – the verse simply means a long time ago. This could be alluding to the lineage of the Messiah (peace be upon him) being old in Israel, or the concept of the eventual Messiah being old.
Of course a modern Rabbi is going to try and downplay this verse, and water down the meaning, but it is a clear parallel and same concept as the “Ancient of Days” in Daniel 7:9 and 7:13-14, which all Jews admit is about God.
“….he will stand and shepherd his flock in **the strength of the LORD**, in **the majesty of the name of the LORD** **his God**…”
I say;
All your explanation did not prove and clearly state the messiah is God. It did not say that Mr. Ken. The olden day Rabbi and the modern day Rabbi has this scriptures with them for a long time and it is their language and their scripture and religion and they do not believe the messiah is God. That is why Arians, Ebionites etc. were persecuted by the other Christian sects.
////////////////////
“….he will stand and shepherd his flock in **the strength of the LORD**, in **the majesty of the name of the LORD** **his God**…
////////////////////
The above means who ever the LORD is has a God and God is One, Only and Alone and nothing besides Him said the Bible so who ever is described above is not God at all and Jews before Jesus, during Jesus and after Jesus did not believe the messiah is God/God-Man/man or part of 3 persons 1 God.
Thanks
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You said;
This is not a problem for the doctrine of the incarnation and the Trinity, since the second person of the Trinity, the Son, humbled Himself and became a man for 33 years on earth, of course He operated in the strength of the LORD, depending on the Holy Spirit (who is also God), and depending and trusting in His Father, who is also God, so it is not a problem nor a contradiction. As James White rightly says, “Do you think He would be or act like an atheist while on earth? Of course not.”
I say;
The above explanation by you Mr. Ken indicates that you are a polytheist who worships 3 Gods. Read it carefully and any independent mind must help us here.
You said this in the same passage
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the Son, humbled Himself and became a man for 33 years on earth, of course He operated in the strength of the LORD, depending on the Holy Spirit (who is also God), and depending and trusting in His Father, who is also God,
/////////
You said the above Mr. Ken and not me and it says the Holy Spirit is also God(God number 1), and depending and trusting in His Father who is also God(God number 2.
I can count at least 2 Gods in your statement and it is clear you are a polytheist just like the Mormons but you are limited to 3 Gods and the Mormons have millions. Millions of God and 3 Gods are the same like a Million dollar Donald Trump and a 3 dollar man who both have dollars. In the day of judgement the Almighty God will not spare you for worshiping only 3 Gods but will punish you the same like those with million Gods.
Thanks
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Ken Temple
You said;
God is so great that you cannot grasp this deep truth with your human mind alone. You need Jesus to open your mind – Luke 24:45; Acts 16:14; 2 Cor. 4:4-6. Someone else is blinding your mind.
I say;
Jesus did not open the mind of Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Solomon etc. to know the simple command from God that He(God) is One, Only and Alone and there is nothing besides Him.
Thanks.
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You keep accusing me of believing in 3 gods – Estaqf’allah ! استغفرالله
No, there is only one God.
You are rejecting the further revelation of the book of the Injeel (the New Testament).
there is no point in going further at this point; since you just close your ears and mind to the Injeel and its truth.
Check out those books on the Trinity that I listed above; and also read the New Testament by itself, starting in Matthew, all the way through, verse by verse, book by book, and pray for Allah’s guidance.
“Send out Your light and let them lead me LORD . . . ” Psalm 43
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One thing I just noticed –
The Quran did not say injeel was lost and never to be recovered but said it came as the final scripture to correct the old scriptures . . .
How does the Injeel correct the Torah and the Psalms and the Prophets? (the OT, what the Jews say is “TaNaKh” = Torah, Nabi’im / Prophets and “Ketuvim” / Writings/Psalms/Wisdom Literature)
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Yes, Temple, 3 divine persons sharing one divine nature. Like 3 human persons Adam, Eve and Cain sharing one human nature.
You won’t even answer the question “WHO” this “one God” is you believe in.
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Ken Temple
You said;
One thing I just noticed –
The Quran did not say injeel was lost and never to be recovered but said it came as the final scripture to correct the old scriptures . . .
How does the Injeel correct the Torah and the Psalms and the Prophets? (the OT, what the Jews say is “TaNaKh” = Torah, Nabi’im / Prophets and “Ketuvim” / Writings/Psalms/Wisdom Literature)
I say;
Do not be happy Mr. Ken. I might have made a mistake in my sentence. I do not intend to mean the injeel came as the final scripture to correct the old scriptures. You know I do not believe that and Muslims do not believe that. What I was trying to say was that. The Quran did not say the injeel was lost and never to be recovered but the people of the book will be judged according to what was revealed therein. To mean some of the stories in injeel actually did find their way in the scripture of the people of the book and some are as follows
“The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; ” Mark 12:29
“to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
“there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17- Jesus was not immortal and was seen, so he is not God.
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” Zechariah 14:9
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.” Matthew 6:24
“you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?” John 5:44
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
If you are a Christian and believe in the above which are clear that God is One, Only and Alone and nothing( I mean nothing including 1 Person, 2 Persons, 3 Persons, Million Persons or any Person) besides Him(God the Almighty), then you are half Muslim. There is nothing like half Muslim, I must confess, but the Quran said do not say 3, desist, it is better for you, so the Unitarian Christian will not be punished for worshiping idols or being a polytheist or worshiping anything other than the one God which was clearly stated above in the Bible, but a Trinitarian Christian will of course be put in hell fire for worshiping other Persons other than the One Creator who is Only and Alone and nothing besides Him and the NOT INJEEL but the Quran is the last revealed word of God and it is Muhaymeen(Guide) to the old revealed scriptures, so there is no “3 Persons 1 God”, “God-Man”, “Jesus saying I am God(not I am but I am God), Jesus saying “I alone is God” etc. in the old scriptures but the above passages are all in the old scriptures and the Quran.
Jesus never said I alone is God but the Only One and Alone true God of Abraham Yahwey said so in numerous places in the Bible and the Quran
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
(If we are 3 Persons God Mr. Ken and one said He is the only One God and there is no other, then the other 2 Gods cannot be God)
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
(Yahweh is the only one God and there is not one else, and Jesus is not Yahweh Mr. Ken, so Jesus is not God as simple as that. You must be doing yourself a disservice by being a stubborn Christian who will not accept the glaring truth from the Bible and the Quran as the final revelation of God guiding you. In the day of judgement, you are not going to get a second chance to come back to earth and correct your stubbornness by changing words, phrases and sentences to form a God the way you want God to be like the God of Paul of Tarsus who was influenced by the Greek and Roman concept of God and lied that he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus).
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
You keep accusing me of believing in 3 gods – Estaqf’allah ! استغفرالله
No, there is only one God.
You are rejecting the further revelation of the book of the Injeel (the New Testament).
there is no point in going further at this point; since you just close your ears and mind to the Injeel and its truth.
Check out those books on the Trinity that I listed above; and also read the New Testament by itself, starting in Matthew, all the way through, verse by verse, book by book, and pray for Allah’s guidance.
“Send out Your light and let them lead me LORD . . . ” Psalm 43
I say;
Interview some idol worshipers and they will tell you that they believe God is One, but they will also just like you find some excuses and interpret verses in crude ways and lie and tell you that their other Gods are just legitimate extensions of God. Mormons believe they worship One God, but you will not accept they worship one God because they did not stick to the revealed command of God to Moses that He is One, Only and Alone. You are the same by adding “3 Persons” to the One God of Abraham and the “3 Persons” are not in the Bible.
Did I say this?
/////////
You said;
This is not a problem for the doctrine of the incarnation and the Trinity, since the second person of the Trinity, the Son, humbled Himself and became a man for 33 years on earth, of course He operated in the strength of the LORD, depending on the Holy Spirit (who is also God), and depending and trusting in His Father, who is also God, so it is not a problem nor a contradiction. As James White rightly says, “Do you think He would be or act like an atheist while on earth? Of course not.”
/////////
Mr. Ken Temple, you said the above and read it carefully and it said the Holy Spirit(who is also God)(=God number 1 independent count), trusting in His Father, who is also God(=God number 2 independent count), so…………………
An independent reader will count 3 Gods in your statement and that is clearly a polytheism. I enjoy interacting with you and any one particularly Christians during my spare time and I want you to continue to engage in the conversation may be you will convert me to Christianity. Keep trying, but now it is clear you are a polytheist who worship 2 more Persons/persons other the One, Only and Alone God of Abraham who has nothing(including any Persons or person) besides Him said the Bible and not me. That is what the Quran is saying you will be judged of what was revealed there in and not the “3 Persons 1 God” which was not revealed there in, in the Bible but decided by men to describe God the way they want and that matches with the Greek, Roman and Pagan Gods of love, God of Sun, God of this, God of that.
God of Abraham is God of Everything not God of love alone.
I did not accuse you of worshiping 3 Gods but you do worship “3 Persons” and each person or every person is a being and either divine being, human being, angelic being, demonic being, satanic being etc. No 1 being even God can be 2 or more beings at the same time. God said clearly He is One, Only and Alone being in numerous occasions in the Bible and so He can be “3 Persons/being”. God never said He is 3 either being or persons anywhere in the Bible but God said He is One, So He cannot be 3 in any way shape or form(Respect to Dr. James White) and those who do not take this Oneness of God(Tauhid) seriously will have themselves to be blamed in the day of judgement.
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correction
I mean to say “He cannot be “3 Persons””
No body should take my mistake to be what he believes in.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
I will not call a Unitarian Christian as worshiping 3 Gods. I will not do that because a Unitarian Christians worship the same One, Only and Alone God of Abraham like Me or Jew. We do not have problems with a Unitarian Christian, a Jew or whoever confess he worships One God, the creator of everything without adding anything to that God. The moment you start adding thing then you become a polytheists according to the Bible not me. Anything added to the One and Only true God of Abraham to be worshiped as One God, including Persons, man, Jesus, object, aircraft, lorries, etc. are not accepted.
The Jews do not have problems with Muslims when it comes to the worship of One, and Only true God of Abraham, but they have problems with Trinitatians when it comes to who God is. This should tell you that it is not Muslims alone who object your God but your fellow Christians object to your God since early Christianity like Arians and Ebionites and the rest and they have to be persecuted especially by Emperor Constantine and others. YOUR OWN CHRISTIANS BELIEVE YOU WORSHIP 3 GOD FROM THE EARLY CHRISTIANITY AND NOT ME ALONE. So you are on the wrong path and repent before it is too late Mr. Temple
Thanks.
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“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
John 1:1
From all eternity, He was both with God (the Father) [2 persons – the Holy Spirit is the third person, spoken of in other verses] and the Word was God (by nature, same nature/substance).
Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح is the Word of God – کلمه الله
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:1-5
It also says that Jesus was eternal, the creator, life, and light.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
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Islam teaches that the original scriptures given to the Jews and Christians has been altered and corrupted. The only pure and uncorrupted scripture is the Quran. So simply quoting from these corrupted scriptures will not carry much weight with Muslims unless it is corroborated by the Quran.
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But it should, since the Qur’an never says the text was altered or corrupted. The Qur’an at the time of Muhammad assumes that the OT and the NT was the same message as given to Jesus. The only Injeel was the New Testament.
Christianity teaches that the NT and OT are pure and uncorrupted, inerrant and infallible; so, the Qur’an is a false revelation, made up in a claim by one man. At least the Bible has many authors who confirm one another, whereas the Qur’an is one man’s imagination and claim that is impossible to prove was revelation from God. And since revelation ceases with Jesus and the apostles in the 27 books of the NT; there is no revelation from God after that.
“the faith that was once for all time delivered to the saints” Jude, verse 3
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Islam teaches unequivocally the original scriptures given to the Jews and Christians have been altered and corrupted. Objective biblical scholarship has conformed this beyond dispute. For the Islamic position see here:
Saheeh Bukhari on Textual Corruption of The Christian and Jewish Scriptures
For an excellent scholarly account of the pervasive corruption of the Christian New Testament see here:
The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament
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revelation ceased with Jesus and the apostles. ( Jude 3, Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 22:18; John 17:8; John 16:13)
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The Qur’an affirms the text of the Bible – Surah 5:47; 6:68; 2:136; 10:94
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Sorry, the above should have been Surah 5:68 (not 6:68)
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The Qur’an affirms the textual corruption of the Bible – Surah 2:79; 4:157
Surah 2:79
‘Therefore woe be unto those who write the Book with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.’
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Ken Temple
You said;
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
John 1:1
From all eternity, He was both with God (the Father) [2 persons – the Holy Spirit is the third person, spoken of in other verses] and the Word was God (by nature, same nature/substance).
Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح is the Word of God –No کلمه الله
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
I say;
There is a contradictions in John 1:1. If the Word is God and is with God, then it means a God is with another God and it means 2 Gods and it is polytheism and the worship of 2 Gods and it is against the Bible and punishable by hell fire. “3 Persons” are not in the Bible so do not add it because adding your wish into the Bible is punishable by hell fire. And any person is a being either human being, angelic being, spiritual being, demonic being or divine being. The Bible said God is One, Only and Alone and NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING, NO ONE, NO ONE, NO ONE ELSE. Nothing means nothing including person, persons, 1 person, 2 persons, 3 persons and so on.
Proof
.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
Ken, do you understand ALONE, ONLY, ONE, NOTHING, NO ONE? “The Son and the Holy Spirit or 2 Persons/persons” are obviously not NO ONE, NOTHING,ONE, ONLY AND ALONE.
Only a stubborn mind who is bent on worshiping Jesus Christ will think the Son and the Holy Spirit are NOTHING. The Son and the Holy Spirit are obviously and inevitably someone and someone, and someone is not NOTHING and someone is not NO ONE and to believe they are with the One, Only and Alone God will make the believer a polytheist and against the Biblical verses above and worshiper of more than one God. .
You said;
John 1:1-5
It also says that Jesus was eternal, the creator, life, and light.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
I say;
God’s Mercy, Love, Knowledge, Wisdom, etc. are considered eternal but these are not God Himself even if they are eternal or not eternal. It does not matter whether God’s Word the Quran, Bible, Torah are eternal or not but oNObviously the Quran or the Torah or the Bible is not God Himself. So any one who worships the Quran, Torah or the Bible will be burned in the hell fire. Everyone knows about that, if they consider the Quran, Torah or Bible to be eternal word or God.
I hope the above is crystal clear, no body worships the Quran, the Torah or the Bible whether they are eternal or not. I personally think, when God speak, it is just a word spoken by God but not God Himself. I also believe sometimes God does not love because He does not love Satan, Evil, Evil doer, and will punish the evil doer if the evil doer does not repent. So God does not love the evil doer and so God is not love because love is not a substance and love like all the attributes of God like Mercy, grace, etc. are all not substance and are all not persons or beings or human, divine, spiritual, demonic beings.
Mr. Ken, so the Word of God is not God himself because a word is not a substance i.e. person/being and a word does not have weight and or occupy space and has no intellect or consciousness by itself. Word or any attributes of God like love or grace are what they are but not God Himself because they are not substances and therefore are not persons/beings and cannot be referred to as God(being/person divine) or human being(man).
My dear Ken, you will say the Word became flesh. So when the word became flesh it could be a man, elephant, woman, monkey etc. The Bible did not say the Word was God-Man or Jesus himself saying he is the only one and alone God like the verses I have been showing to you where Yahwey clearly said he is the only one God and nothing besides him. So it represents all the incarnated Gods like Sai Baba of India, Emperor Haile Selaissie of Ethiopia, Caliph Ali, the Elephant God of India, the Monkeys God of Indian and many more and we will have a flesh populations of Gods and the God-Men will be called Godmanity. The animal flesh Gods will be called Godanimality.
You will tell me the flesh means Jesus Christ but you do not have any proof to show me that, the Bible said Jesus is God-Man. Because no verse in the Bible said Jesus is God-Man. We need clarity here. Rastafarians will argue that Emperor Haile Selaissie of Ethiopia is God-Man, so is Sai Baba of India and others.
Whatever the Quran is, it did not became flesh and is not a person/being, so Christians must stop comparing it to the Trinity which has god word becoming flesh and is a person/being. The Quran is not a flesh, man, God-man, person/being and is not worshiped period and full stop.
Thanks
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Surah 2:79 is actually what Muhammad did, since it was his own personal claim and dreams and visions that were written down, and they were not from God.
Plus 2:79 does not say the people of the gospel or Ahl – e- Kitab (people of the book) did that.
Surah 4:157 is denial of the crucifixion and death of Jesus Al Masih; and that has already proven wrong, even by liberals – everyone knows that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross – it is an historical fact that even atheists, agnostics, unbelievers, skeptics, pretty much everyone, even Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Cross, Marcus Borg, James D. G. Dunn, everyone agrees that Jesus the Messiah died on the cross.
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what’s your evidence that Jesus died on the cross?
What proof is there that God was wrong in the Quran?
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John Dominic Crossan
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LOL that’s not evidence.
Do you have any archaeological evidence?
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I typed John Dominic Crossan before your last question – I was correcing my typo in the previous combox – I had written “John Dominic Cross”
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/01/quran-never-says-text-of-bible-was.html
Otherwise, that Muslim scholar that you talked to over the phone that you wrote an article on earlier (but was at one of your old blogs that you got rid of) said that no text of the Qur’an says the text of the Bible had been corrupted. I forget his name, Haddad, I think.
Historical / archeological evidence for Jesus’ death –
Tacitus
Suetonius
Josephus
the 27 books of NT
hundreds, thousands of manuscripts, most of which were well before the Qur’an in 610-632 AD.
Translations of the Bible into Aramaic, Syriac, Latin, Coptic, Armenian, etc.
All of history –
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“All of history –”
that’s a weird answer.
Let’s take just one “evidence” of the alleged crucifixion – Tacitus. His dates: AD 56 – c.117. So he was born after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus! Lived thousands of miles from Palestine and never actually went there.
Way to go Ken!
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Let’s take just one “evidence” of the alleged crucifixion – Tacitus. His dates: AD 56 – c.117. So he was born after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus!
Way to go Ken!
and Muhammad was born in 570 AD – way to go Paul !
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Muhammad’s birth date is irrelevant.
Do you have any archaeological evidence? I’m still waiting. And film or photos? Any signed affidavits from named individuals who swear they were at the cross in Jerusalem?
Looks like you have none Ken.
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Professor Abdel Haleem, and Paul Williams admits that the Qur’an teaches that the Bible was not corrupted at the time of Muhammad. (url no longer there; I wonder what Paul Williams is afraid of?)
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Ken give me the name of 1 eye-witness who said they saw Jesus being crucified.
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You have nothing that refutes all the historical evidence of Jesus’ crucifixion and death on the cross.
“film or photos?” ; “signed affidavits?” – this shows your mentality of demanding 20th Century evidence for first century history.
Muhammad came much later – 5-6 centuries later – you are questioned thousands of testimonies on thousands of manuscripts over 6 centuries before Muhammad – so it is relevant – it is relevant in that his little one verse 6 centuries later, hundreds of miles away cannot refute the weight of historical evidence of 6 centuries of thousands of pages of manuscripts of gospels and NT books, translations, sermons and writings by Christians from 100-600 AD.
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On a recent outing in London Paul Williams, . . . discovered something that outs Islamic apologists like Bassam Zawadi, not to mention many others.
According to PW, world-renowned Islamic scholar Abdel Haleem confirmed for him in a phone conversation one of the two claims that Christians often make regarding the Bible. In the view of Professor Haleem, the Qur’an does NOT teach that the Bible was corrupted. Instead, it teaches that the Bible has been misinterpreted. Prof. Haleem’s statements in this connection, as PW says, “put Muslim apologist Bassam Zawadi (who has argued many times for the view that the Quran teaches textual corruption) in the wrong.” This, as PW also says, serves to “vindicate the oft-stated views of Sam Shamoun and David Wood.”
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Ken Temple
You said;
Surah 2:79 is actually what Muhammad did, since it was his own personal claim and dreams and visions that were written down, and they were not from God.
Plus 2:79 does not say the people of the gospel or Ahl – e- Kitab (people of the book) did that.
Surah 4:157 is denial of the crucifixion and death of Jesus Al Masih; and that has already proven wrong, even by liberals – everyone knows that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross – it is an historical fact that even atheists, agnostics, unbelievers, skeptics, pretty much everyone, even Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Cross, Marcus Borg, James D. G. Dunn, everyone agrees that Jesus the Messiah died on the cross.
I say;
You do not have evidence that Jesus died on the Cross but you believed it. You cannot take what you believed against someone. This is no argument because no one was there when Jesus was crucified according to the Bible there is a conflicting story, some Gospel said saw it afar or from distance. All disciples fled etc. It is a matter of your believe that Jesus was crucified, but you do not have evidence, so you cannot disprove anyone with your belief.
If we open the Bible we can prove Yahweh said He alone is God and that is proof, and that is what we are talking here and not somebody’s death which no one can prove unless he believed. Believe is not proof.
Jesus did not die and he was not crucified. We believe and you cannot prove otherwise, so it is just like arguing about “My Son is Good” and “Your Son is Bad” without proof and that is stupid.
Lets continue with the proof that God clearly said He is One only and alone in the Bible which we can proof and have already proved it is written in the Bible and forget about the death of Jesus Christ which you cannot prove.
The Quran said, no one can prove the death of Jesus Christ but they believe in heresy. That is what you are doing here. Bart You keep saying “Erman said”, “this scholar believe”. Was Bart Erhman there? When Jesus was crucified? No, So all the scholars where not there but they believe and belief is not necessarily the truth.
Yes, Prophet Mohammed, Just like, Moses, Noah, Abraham etc., Paul of Tarsus claim their message is form God, and it is up to the individual to use his intellect to compare what God clearly said He is here
Proof
.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
As proof to determine the truth between Prophet Mohammed and Paul of Tarsus who said
God is 3 Persons in 1
God has a part and the part is God-Man i.e.100% God 100% Man as the 2nd Person of Trinity
Abolish the law but Jesus said he came to fulfil the law.
God never dies but Paul of Tarsus said God died for the sins of the world etc.
And so many contradictions
Thanks
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Ken Temple
You said;
You have nothing that refutes all the historical evidence of Jesus’ crucifixion and death on the cross.
“film or photos?” ; “signed affidavits?” – this shows your mentality of demanding 20th Century evidence for first century history.
Muhammad came much later – 5-6 centuries later – you are questioned thousands of testimonies on thousands of manuscripts over 6 centuries before Muhammad – so it is relevant – it is relevant in that his little one verse 6 centuries later, hundreds of miles away cannot refute the weight of historical evidence of 6 centuries of thousands of pages of manuscripts of gospels and NT books, translations, sermons and writings by Christians from 100-600 AD.
I say;
That thousands of manuscripts has ghost stories in them and the ghosts are roaming in the streets of Jerusalem and so are not reliable. That thousands of manuscripts has got some passages in them that Dr. James White will not preach in his Church, so the thousands of manuscripts are not reliable and are rendered useless and there are other manuscripts like the Shepherd Hermas, Epistle of Banabas that was part of it but later removed so it was not reliable to tell us the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Thanks
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John the apostle
Mary the mother of Jesus
Mary Magdalene
Peter and the other disciples were probably watching from a far.
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Surah 2:79
Therefore woe be unto those who write the Book with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
Here we clearly see that Allah is warning those (Jews) who wrote the scripture from their own selves and then claimed that it was from God. A clear charge of TEXTUAL corruption. The verse is clear is clearly stating that whatever the Jews wrote, they claimed it was from God.
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Mary Magdalene?? – do you have a letter from her? Or an email perhaps? Give me your evidence where she says she saw Jesus die on a cross.
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All the details in Mark 14, 15 and 16:1-8 came from eyewitnesses – Peter preached them, Mark wrote them down.
Matthew 26, 27, 28 – many details about the arrest, trial, crucifixion and empty tomb and resurrection of Jesus – eyewitness accounts.
same for Luke 22, 23, 24 and John 18, 19, 20, 21
Boom.
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how do you know they are eyewitness accounts? All four gospels are anonymous. The ascription to the 4 named persons occurred much later in the 2nd century.
We now know they were not written by apostles/eyewitnesses.
Big fail Ken.
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25 Therefore the soldiers did these things.
But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved (John) standing nearby, He *said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
John 19:25-26
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John 19:25-26 proves nothing. The gospel is anonymous and is not trusted as a reliable historical source by most modern historians.
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No, Martin Hengel, whom even you have quoted a few times (like you quote Ehrman, Dunn, and Baukham, but they agree Jesus died on the cross), agrees that the gospels were not anonymous. Hengel, Studies in the Gospel of Mark, page 80, quoted extensively in R. T. France’s commentary, The Gospel According to Mark, page 39 – 40. Every manuscript we have that has the first page has “Kata Matthaion” or “Kata Markon” or “kata Lukan” or “kata Yuhannan” (kata = according to”).
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Ken Temple
You said;
25 Therefore the soldiers did these things.
But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved (John) standing nearby, He *said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
John 19:25-26
I say;
These gospels are not eye witness. Did Dr. James White write “According to James” and not “by James White”? to prove the authenticity of his books?
No one will accept any document according to a first name of someone. It might be a fraud.
Thanks.
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They were already accepted as NOT frauds by thousands of people for 600 years before your Muhammand and Qur’an came about.
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No; you are wrong, as whole chapters of text, with some 30-40-50 verses of Mark 14, 15, 16:1-8; Luke 22, 23, 24, Matthew 26, 27, 28, John 19, 20, 21 are all reliable historical sources.
John 19 is not anomymous and is a great historical source.
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Ken you have failed to provide any certain evidence of the alleged crucifixion of Jesus. Just anonymous writings which most experts consider of uncertain reliability.
Face it: you put your faith in uncertain texts by unknown authors from thousands of years ago.
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ALL modern historians refute Qur’an Surah 4:157, so stop claiming the liberals and skeptical scholars as your authority. Surah 4:157 is 600 years more unreliable and un-credible.
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Ken Temple
You said;
No; you are wrong, as whole chapters of text, with some 30-40-50 verses of Mark 14, 15, 16:1-8; Luke 22, 23, 24, Matthew 26, 27, 28, John 19, 20, 21 are all reliable historical sources.
John 19 is not anomymous and is a great historical source.
I say;
Is the Ghosts coming out from their graves in the street of Jerusalem in Mathew gospels alone but not the other gospels reliable historical sources? No, so the gospels are not reliable in Jesus Crucifixion story.
How about Mark Gospel of snakes and poison, that Dr. James White will not preach in his Church? In Marks gospel? God breathed word will not have such fraud has got the gospels un-credible and unreliable about the crucifixion of Jesus Christi.
You said;
ALL modern historians refute Qur’an Surah 4:157, so stop claiming the liberals and skeptical scholars as your authority. Surah 4:157 is 600 years more unreliable and un-credible.
I say;
All modern historians were not there to prove Jesus Christ was crucified. Some ones believe is not evidence for Jesus Crucifixion because they aren’t there and cannot prove the crucifixion as the Quran said.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
They were already accepted as NOT frauds by thousands of people for 600 years before your Muhammand and Qur’an came about.
I say;
Joseph Smith’s book of Mormons is accepted by thousands of people, and does that make it reliable? At least it has First and last name as Joseph Smith the writer to make it more credible than the gospels which do not have second names but only last names and it is labeled “according to” to make them suspicious. What I am trying to mean is that the gospels cannot be accepted as evidence to crucifixion apart from belief. The reason is when you write a book and label it “according to Ken” it becomes useless and sound suspicious because it will be hard for anyone to identify or know the writer except by belief. People will ask Ken who? Mark Who? John Who? Mathew Who? Luke Who? Don’t they have full names? or a place they came from to make their documents a little bit credible?
The messages in their documents is supposed to be God breathed and are Gods words, so it is something they cannot joke with their only first names. We need their full names and or where the came from and a claim they wrote the documents and it is God breathed to them. All these authentication and verification are needed to make the gospels credible but not “according to” for this important documents.
Such documents cannot be used to refute the Quran.
Thanks.
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Temple, ALL modern historians refute your reading and mis-understanding Qur’an Surah 4:157.
ALL modern historians refute your reading and mis-understanding of the biblical crucifixion accounts.
At the end of the day you come across just as a religious fanatic and lunatic.
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No; all modern historians disagree with Surah 4:157 and Islam’s anti-intellectualism and going against historical reality. Your book is denying real history and reality.
Another thing – you kept writing “ghost stories” (about Matthew 27:51-53) That is definitely NOT a “ghost story” since they are real bodies that were resurrected from the dead, like Lazarus in John 11. The text itself emphasizes their “bodies”. So they are NOT ghosts, they are not spirits. Don’t you know “ghost” is another word for “spirit”? ( meaning and entity with “NO body”, “no physical matter” ?) As a Muslim, you are required to believe that God can raise people from the dead; and in fact; one of your core 6 pillars of belief is in the judgement day and resurrection of all human beings and they have to stand before God to be judged.
It is nothing for God to do that as a testimony of the final resurrection, just as Jesus caused Lazarus to rise from the dead in John 11.
It is more logical to believe that (that God can raise some people from the dead in Matthew 27:51-53) than your Qur’an and traditions about “Jinn” who are created from smokeless fire; or the Houris in heaven. (eternal virgins as sex partners for the martyred Muslim men.)
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Ken Temple
You said;
No; all modern historians disagree with Surah 4:157 and Islam’s anti-intellectualism and going against historical reality. Your book is denying real history and reality.
I say;
The modern historians were not there when Jesus was crucified and the gospels had conflicting reports and said the saw it from afar. Why at a distance. If the distance is not important why not say they saw it at a close range? to know what really happened. Another gospel said close and it conflict with the other. Which one will your modern historians pick as the correct account of the crucifixion?
Some modern historians say and believed Moses never existed, some do not believe the parting of the red sea. Some modern day historians never believed in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, some modern day historians never believed the gospels are reliable etc. I could go on and on. You will never believe them. How do you expect us to believe your modern day scholars about crucifixion?
——————————-
Matthew 27:50-53New International Version (NIV)
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
———————————
If the above story is true, Mathew will not have been the only one to record it because it is a breaking news and all the gospel writers will have recording this breaking news as they all usually write breaking news at that time. They appeared to many people and so must be recorded and historians at that time and now must record and know it but it was found in Mathew gospel but no other.
You said;
It is nothing for God to do that as a testimony of the final resurrection, just as Jesus caused Lazarus to rise from the dead in John 11.
I say;
The story of Mathew was a blockbuster than Lazarus as Lazarus is alone and did not appear to many but the Mathew story saw resurrected people appearing to many and from their graves which is a big historical event that would have been news worthy to all the gospel writers and historians but no one seem to mention this blockbuster except only one gospel writer.
You said;
It is more logical to believe that (that God can raise some people from the dead in Matthew 27:51-53) than your Qur’an and traditions about “Jinn” who are created from smokeless fire; or the Houris in heaven. (eternal virgins as sex partners for the martyred Muslim men.)
I say;
Do you believe the Bible when it said Jesus cast the demons out of people? What are demons then?
de·mon1
/ˈdēmən/
noun
noun: demon; plural noun: demons
1. an evil spirit or devil, especially one thought to possess a person or act as a tormentor in hell.
synonyms: devil , fiend , evil spirit; incubus , succubus
“the demons from hell”
Source of dictionary
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=pQABVsaiD63d8gea9pIY&gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+demon
If you believe Jesus can remove some spirit from the body of humans on this earth, then you do not have to question the Quran when it mentions about some spirits on this earth. Because the Quran uses Jinn but not Demon? Any language with the way it calls such spirits on this earth that Jesus keep removing from the bodies of people on this earth.
Right now we have Christian exorcists who removes such spirit from people and Muslim exorcists are called Rukyah and it is the Jinn or spirit they are all casting out of people but they call them different names.
Some learning for you to do.
1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3dqV9q_8oU
2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uwgs8aDuK0
Thanks.
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There are real demons, evil spirits that were angels before; but there is no such thing as “Jinn”.
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Are you saying that Iblis / Shaytan is a Jinn?
Are you saying that Jinns are just a different kind of demon?
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Ok, I see that Iblis is called a Jinn in Surah 18:50.
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ok, I see even in my old copy of Pickthall’s “The Meaning of the Glorious Koran”, I had Surah 18:51 marked that Iblis was a Jinn. But I had forgotten that.
So, in Islam, demons are not fallen angels, right?
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Ken Temple
You said;
So, in Islam, demons are not fallen angels, right?
I say;
It makes sense in Islam than in Christianity. Angels are created to worship God and they do not have free will like human beings, so they cannot disobey God and become fallen angels.
The Demon/Jinn/Spirit etc. where created and are on earth and that is what Jesus Christ keeps casting out of the people and now some Christian pastors or other spiritualists called exorcists follow Jesus footsteps in casting out this evil spirits out of people.
The Demon/Jinn, just like human has free will to either obey or disobey God. So when God asked the creation He made which includes angels and Iblis(Jinn) to bow down to Adam, the angels bowed down to Adam except Iblis( a Jinn) who was not an angel but has his freewill and disobeyed Allah and did not bow down and just like any disobedient creature of God who has freewill, God cursed him.
Rosemary has explained all this things in the video and she research it from Islamic sources with other sources to backup her findings.
You said;
There are real demons, evil spirits that were angels before; but there is no such thing as “Jinn”.
I say;
You need a lot of research buddy. It does not make sense when Angels who are created to worship God and do not have free will to disobey God and became fallen angels. It is only true for a human being or a Jinn/demon who has free will to disobey God and hence evil spirits and good spirits.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
Even if you believe there are fallen angels on this earth that can be cast out from people, then you do not have to ridicule the Holy Quran that there are not spirits on this earth. Seriously you and Dr. James White needs a lot of learning and research to do.
The thing is there are some spirits with human on this earth and those spirits were the spirits Jesus cast out from humans and you can argue their origin, but Islamic origin of this spirits that possess humans makes sense and logical than Christianity fallen angels who were created not with free will and therefore will not disobey God and become fallen.
You can call this spirits on earth in your mother tongue as demon and an Arab will call these spirit on earth that Jesus cast out of peoples body as Jinn. What is wrong about that? Grow up and do a lot of learning and research.
THERE ARE OTHER BEINGS(SPIRITS) ON THIS EARTH AND JESUS REMOVED THEM FROM THE BODIES OF HUMANS. To laugh at the Quran with regards to other beings on this earth means lack of knowledge.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You believed when Adam sinned, it affected all humanity, so all of us were fallen to earth. So, if the angels disobeyed God it affected all of them as well and all have to be on earth. What is the Angel Gabriel doing with God when angels are fallen? and you believed when one being(Adam) does disobeyed God, it affected all the same beings(Humans)?
Thanks
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So, in Islam, Allah created the Jinn/demons as they are – evil.
In Christianity, God created angels all good and without sin, but with free will, and SOME OF them only became demons after they sinned.
It is you who need to do some research as to what Christianity teaches.
Angels were created to worship God and they had free will, yes.
But SOME angels rebelled, and they became demons. (led by an angel who was “the shining one”, which is where the word, “Lucifer” comes from, from Isaiah 14:12 (KJV), who became Satan / the devil – Ezekiel chapter 28) both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel are speaking of evil and prideful political leaders, the King of Babylon in Isaiah 14 and the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28, but the evil spirit behind them points to the devil / Satan, since only he was in the Garden of God, Eden and an anointed cherub, and perfection in wisdom and beauty. Those descriptions could not have been about human kings, so the prophets are describing the evil spirit behind the prideful and oppressive dictators and political rulers.
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
“You were in Eden, the garden of God;
. . .
“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
. . .
“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground; . . .
From Ezekiel 28
The angels who did not fall are the “elect angels” – they cannot fall – 1 Timothy 5:21
The video about the Jinn is interesting; and I am learning some things; but I have not had time yet to listen to the whole thing.
But my main point in bringing that issue up was the fact that one of you (“Intellect”) was calling Matthew 27:50-53 as “ghost stories”, when it is not talking about “ghosts” at all. Ghosts are spirits, without bodies. The text in Matthew 27 is about resurrection of the body, just as Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead in John 11, and which all Muslims would affirm that Jesus had the power to do that; and Muslims believe in the resurrection of the body on the last day.
The points you are making against the text are not relevant to the issues of resurrection of the body, God’s power, and you mistakenly calling them “ghost stories”, etc.
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Gabriel and Michael are two of the elect good angels.
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“fallen” in Christian theology means primarily “fallen into sin, and fallen short of the glory of God”.
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Ken do you believe that death and disease came into the world at the fall of Adam?
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Yes, that is what Genesis 3 and Romans 5:12-21 teaches, but that does not include micro-organisms, insects, plants, etc. I believe that death of those things happened before the death that entered into the world because of sin.
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So the disease and death experienced by animals before man was not caused by anyone’s sin.
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Genesis 1-3 teaches that plants were eaten before the fall, but after the fall, meat of some animals were eaten (Genesis 9).
Before the fall, I admit I don’t know HOW everything was working. بلا کیف – “without knowing how”
the death of plants, insects, and micro-organisms were not caused by sin.
It seems clear that the first large animal death was the sacrifice of the animals that provided skins to cover Adam and Eve’s nakedness. (Genesis 3)
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So you are one of those Christians that believe the dinosaurs came after Adam?
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Good question; I never heard of the “after Adam” issue of dinosaurs.
reptiles grow their entire lives, as observed in observational science of reptiles of today – giant tortoises up to 300 years old, some snakes are incredibly large, etc..
If humans lived up to 900 years before the flood (Genesis 5 – Adam, Methuselah, etc. ), then when God reduced human’s longevity to maximum 120 (Genesis 6), then when the reptiles were reduced in lifespan, the remaining ones that survived are the current ones living today.
There is a lot of mystery as to the Dinosaurs – they were probably living in areas that humans were not around in those areas; and only smaller reptiles were included in the arc. The global flood probably killed the giant dinosaurs.
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But we now know that the dinosaurs lived many millions of years before man. They died of many kinds diseases. So disease and death were not caused by the fall.
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I don’t know. Maybe the days of Genesis 1 are “epochs”. Old Earth Creationism and Young Earth Creationism are 2 valid views within the pale of orthodoxy.
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How can young earth creationism be remotely valid when it contracts known scientific facts?
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Only if one does not believe in miracles and/or God’s power to do things that He does not do today. Young Earth Creationism is compatible with observation science today – but since we were not there 10,000 or 100,000 years ago; it is possible God that did stuff by total miraculous intervention, suspension of the laws of nature of today and the scientific method.
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Ken I asked you if you believe that ‘death and disease came into the world at the fall of Adam?’ and you replied:
‘Yes, that is what Genesis 3 and Romans 5:12-21 teaches’
The idea that death and disease came into the world at the time of Adam is scientifically false. Every educated person knows this. Every schoolboy and schoolgirl knows this.
Except you. And Genesis and Romans are in error.
According to the Natural History Museum, in London,
‘Dinosaurs lived between 230 and 65 million years ago, in a time known as the Mesozoic Era. This was many millions of years before the first modern humans, Homo sapiens, appeared.’
– See more at: http://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/dino-directory/about-dinosaurs/when-did-dinosaurs-live.html#sthash.gkbQl07l.dpuf
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you left out that part:
but that does not include micro-organisms, insects, plants, etc.
Yes, that is what Genesis 3 and Romans 5:12-21 teaches, but that does not include micro-organisms, insects, plants, etc.
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‘micro-organisms, insects, plants’ – are completely irrelevant as they are not moral agents.
so you admit Genesis 3 and Romans 5:12-21 got it wrong then
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No; it may be referring to only human death, or only human and animals to be used for sacrifice death.
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oh if that is the case then animal death and animal disease were widespread in God’s somewhat imperfect creation before man existed.
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بلا کیف
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bela Keif
بلا کیف
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You said;
But my main point in bringing that issue up was the fact that one of you (“Intellect”) was calling Matthew 27:50-53 as “ghost stories”, when it is not talking about “ghosts” at all. Ghosts are spirits, without bodies. The text in Matthew 27 is about resurrection of the body, just as Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead in John 11, and which all Muslims would affirm that Jesus had the power to do that; and Muslims believe in the resurrection of the body on the last day.
The points you are making against the text are not relevant to the issues of resurrection of the body, God’s power, and you mistakenly calling them “ghost stories”, etc.
I say;
Be honest my good friend. If you see some one you know is dead coming towards you, won’t you faint or run away? It says they are from the graves. No one will stand to see bodies coming out of their graves. People will froze not ice but terrified to death because God did not make the world to be seeing dead people. That makes Mathew story ghost stories.
There was a confusing in mistaken identity of a dead man in Brazil recently where the wrong person who was mistakenly identified dead, while alive some where appeared in his funeral. I tell you people froze to death and some fainted and the brave one run as much as they could from this person who was not dead after all. He was later identified by the police to be the wrong person believed to have been dead. You see God did not make this world to be seeing dead people and dead people who became alive like in Mathews gospel are called ghosts and not bodies. Raising all of us from the dead will happen in the day of judgement. God did not make this world for that.
Yes, Jesus raising the dead is an exceptional case to prove to people that he was sent from God as he(Jesus) said he was sent from God and that miracle proved what he said, and that is he was sent from God but not God himself.
Raising one(Lazarus) dead in front of people is less frightening than seeing dead people visiting your streets or your house from graves. It never happened and is different from seeing a messenger of God raising the dead in front of people.
That Mathew story is a blockbuster then and now and need to be recorded by all the gospels and other historians and those who saw the dead.
You said;
So, in Islam, Allah created the Jinn/demons as they are – evil.
In Christianity, God created angels all good and without sin, but with free will, and SOME OF them only became demons after they sinned.
It is you who need to do some research as to what Christianity teaches.
Angels were created to worship God and they had free will, yes.
I say;
There are good spirits/jinns as well
Angels have free will? I do not think so. Show me where in the Bible does it say, angels will go to hell or angels will be judged? When Adam was fell, his identity(human, man, humanity) never changed to some entity but remained the same, why must angels changed to demons. Show me where it says in the Bible “fallen angels”. You are just making things up without evidence.
What I am saying is that, you believed Adams sin affWected all of humanity and we all inherited the sin of one man and we fell from heaven and if what you believed is true, then the sin of some of the angels must affect all angels and they must inherit the sin of others because in Gods kingdom according to you(Ken) ONE SIN affects that entire creations.
Angels always take Gods command and never disobeyed him. One of the main differences between man and angel is that of the freewill we have and prophets to guide us to God. Tell me in the Bible what prophet was sent to guide the Angels before they disobeyed God.
Why will God create Angels with freewill without sending them book, guidance, prophets and expect them not to disobey Him. In Islam, both man and the Jinn who have freewill have prophets to guide them to the right path but angels have no book, prophet to guide them.
Thanks
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Ken Temple
Sean Stone
The son of Oscar-winning director Oliver Stone converted to Islam while making a documentary film in Iran
Thanks
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I enjoy this, yet it’s really sad what those demonic christians do with their followers!
“Say, “O People of the Scripture, why do you hinder from Allah’s path those who believe, seeking to distort it, even though you are witnesses? Allah is not unaware of what you do.” QT
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Notice that James @ 6:23′ was arguing that Jesus is god by saying that god (i.e. Paul’s writing) says that they crucified the Lord of the glory!, yet he forgot that christians keep telling us that only the man who died.
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