Paul in his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 2, verse 15 states:
“He [Jesus] has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances”
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Jesus as reported in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 5 verse 17, states:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets”
Arguing ›
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The second one is from God. The first one is from someone who was not a disciple of Jesus AND who had verbally attacked and had serious problems with leaders of the disciples (James, Peter) AND who himself said that he was all to all people….meaning he disassembled as he saw fit for his aims.
May God guide us all and protect us from all clear deceptions and from all dangers. Ameen.
Peace to all (including those to disagree with me).
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Please read your own Entry “Thou shalt not commit Logical fallacies”, in particular AMBIGUITY. “Using double meanings or ambiguities of language to mislead or misrepresent truth.” Interestingly, according to yourself this is a “premeditated fallacy to commit”. If you read the context of both passages, it becomes obvious thta Jesus and Paul mean different things when they use the word ‘Law’ and ‘abolish’. Jesus stated that He came to FULFILL the law which He did through His righteous life, His death and resurrection. (In fact, you did not quote the entire verse 17, talking of deception here). Paul is talking about Salvation by following the law that has been abolished, not the law itself. Salvation is by grace, yet we still uphold the law, because loving God above everything else and loving our neighbour will never be abollished and Paul never denies this. I find it very disturbing that you can be so misleading. You should know better!
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Well I’m pleased someone took notice of my post (apart from Omer)!
My post brings out a very uncomfortable fact for Christians – namely that Paul’s view of the Law is very different from that of Jesus.
We know from Matthew’s gospel that Jesus was a Torah observant Jew who taught his followers to obey all the law from the smallest commandments to the greatest. See Matthew 23.
Paul, a notorious apostate from Judaism, preached his own law-free gospel. The whole argument of Galatians is that Jews (and gentiles) no longer need to obey the Torah – the 613 commandments of the law – even though God commanded Jews to obey the law, which contrary to Paul, was not at all difficult to obey.
Which religion do you follow? Paul’s or that of Jesus?
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Japie, “Paul is talking about Salvation by following the law that has been abolished, not the law itself.”
We know Jesus (as) was a jewish prophet sent to the Jews who never wanted to start a new religion. Gentile Christianity by inventing a new religion not only has abolished jewish law, but has replaced it with various new laws.
Of course you have to follow various “Laws” in all the various multiple churches in order to be “saved”.
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Paul – “Which religion do you follow? Paul’s or that of Jesus?” …and bingo another fallacy: False dichotomy!
Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic law and inaugurate the New Covenant in His death (Luke 22). Christians therefore are to follow the new covenant. This is also what Paul proclaimed.
“Paul, a notorious apostate from Judaism, preached his own law-free gospel.”
This is an utter bogus and unsupported claim. Paul was a Jewish Pharisee who studied the Jewish law in Jerusalem. Paul is a Jewish as anyone can be. Notorious means that he was well known for this. Oh really? And you have any real historical evidence to support this?
“The whole argument of Galatians is that Jews (and gentiles) no longer need to obey the Torah”
Quite right. But this is also the Gospel of Jesus. It is the gospel of forgiveness and salvation by grace, not salvation by law, circumcision food rituals etc.. Some people came and tried to persuade people to go back to the old covenant which was already fulfilled in Jesus. Paul is persuading the people to turn back to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In Jesus’s new covenant, the Old covenant is fulfilled. So it is neither abolished or abandoned, but complete. Therefore as a Christian I am commanded to have faith in Jesus and this justifies me before a Holy God. A righteousness that comes by faith (Romans 1:16-17). Being then an adopted son of the Living God, I must start living out this new life. How? By learning from Jesus’ teaching and following His commands and be empowered by the holy Spirit which Jesus promised (John 14-17). “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22). This is very similar to the sermon that Jesus gave in Mathew 23, i.e. against legalism.
You have twisted and perverted both Jesus’ and Paul’s words to further false teachings from a false prophet (Mohammed). This is a very serious sin as it also leads other people astray. I plead with you to to repent and believe in Jesus Christ who will forgive your sins, just like He forgave mine. And The Lord promises to guide you in all truth (John 16)
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Japie,
With all due respect, I think you are However, you are muddying the waters by suggesting that one should do good works but that in the end they are not operative in giving salvation.
I assume that as many mainline Christians, you are advocating others the harmful belief in Nicene and Pauline dogmas…Nicene dogma of Jesus as Divine and Pauline dogma of vicarous atonement.
I reject the dogma that Jesus is Divine and that he paid for our sins.
I believe that believing these dogmas are blasphemous and that it distances one away from God.
I am saying that we need both to believe and trust in God and do good works of worshiping God and in being kind to all others and that is what Jesus taught as the greatest commandments.
The dogma of vicarious atonement confuses many Christians into the how good works (keeping commandments) fits.
It is not separate from believing in God. But it reflects a sincere belief in God.
God is by nature good. If we REALLY believe and trust in God, then that will compel us to want to do and to in fact do good works.
When we were children, if we REALLY adequately love our parents and trust them to be telling us to do what is good to do….then we will do it. PERIOD.
Jesus is reported to have explicitly stated that the greatest commandment is to love God with all your soul and your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.
Please see further below for the verses.
If one loves God, then one has to follow the commandments that God gives. Even a child understands this. The academic community on the Bible consisting mostly of Christians state that according to Paul following the law was not needed.
Reading all of Paul’s comments on this is quite clear.
Did Jesus teach that one has to believe that for salvation one needs to believe that someone innocent (Jesus) paid for sins by others?
Besides the fact that Jesus never said this…it is also contradicts many of Jesus’s sayings such as the parable of the prodigal son, etc.
Moreover, Jews do not believe that all people are destined for hell without someone innocent paying for his or her sins. The Tanakh has multiple verses that one does not need a blood sacrifice for sins ….that God is sick of the blood sacrifices…that one can give barley (or whatever the verse said)…that what God wants is a penitent heart, etc., etc.
And it is unjust on two counts for that innocent people should not pay for the guilty and that the threshold for deserving hell should not be anyone who is less than perfect from God (I am not sure if that was Paul’s teaching but it is teaching of mainline Christians).
Finally, I know that there are psychological reasons for people not accepting the truth.
I do not want those reasons to block you.
Please note that even though what the Qur’an teaches is the truth, it does not automatically imply that Muslims are better people and will be in better place in heaven.
It does clearly imply that if one CONVERTS to Islam (OT of SINCERITY and determination to be good) and if they stay as Muslims, then they will be likely in a better place.
But most Muslims are born into the faith and God will judge them based to factors that is beyond our ability to compute fairly.
Also, the Qur’an being true does not mean that all who are non-Muslims will go to hell. It simply states that those who are presented with what they realize to be true, but if they reject our of arrogance and stubbornness, then they will be justly punished severely.
This is the same just teaching that Jesus and all prophets of God taught.
God knows each of our difficulties and strengths…as God Almighty says repeatedly in the Qur’an, He knows what is in our hearts.
So please do not issues of group thinking and group identification be obstacles for you.
Peace.
Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
Mark 12
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[b] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”
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Hi Omar, thanks for the thoughtful reply.
“With all due respect, I think you are However, you are muddying the waters by suggesting that one should do good works but that in the end they are not operative in giving salvation.”
it is understandably difficult to understand, because it is human nature that we want to be in charge of our own salvation. It gives us control. A sense of achievement. The amazing news is that God is not only the Author of creation and life, He is even the Author and God of our Salvation. Hence being God and Lord in everything! This is making God far bigger and me more humble.
“God is by nature good. If we REALLY believe and trust in God, then that will compel us to want to do and to in fact do good works.”
I absolutely agree. But this is wholy apart from the issue of salvation. Moreover, if I am saved by grace and not by works, then my worship is pure, because I simply worship and want to do good works for the sake if it and because I love God. If I have to worship God and do good works in order to be saved, I do it for selfish reasons to attain paradise. This is inevitably the muslim cunundrum.
Moreover, being saved and justified by grace and having fellowship with God through the Holy Spirit, I am empowered to do good works. As Jesus proclaimed that the Spirit will cause us to overflow with life (See John 4). This is impossible if you have to work for our salvation yourself, because you will never be able to be perfect as God demands and so God cannot have fellowship with me as His wrath would still be on me as I would still have my sin to carry. Salvation by works is impossible!
So salvation by grace and still loving God are not impossible. And by the way, Jesus DID teach salvation by grace. I don’t have the time to go through the references, but look at the last supper accounts in the gospels for example.
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‘…you will never be able to be perfect as God demands and so God cannot have fellowship with me as His wrath would still be on me as I would still have my sin to carry.’
I do not think God requires us to be perfect. That is a horrible idea. We are born imperfect. Jesus fellowshipped with sinners who were far from perfect. He did not hold his nose while doing it.
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Japie, did Paul (of Tarsus, not Williams) believe the stuff he was writing was inspired by God or not?
Also did Paul close the door to salvation or did he leave room for trinitarian Christians to believe in another Prophet after Jesus p?
Thanks
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Paul – “I do not think God requires us to be perfect. That is a horrible idea. We are born imperfect.”
Actually, the demands of the Mosaic Law IS to be perfect See Leviticus 19:2 and 18:13. The whole Mosaic sacrifical system was to atone for the shortcomings of the sin of the people of Israel.
“Jesus fellowshipped with sinners who were far from perfect. He did not hold his nose while doing it.”
Yes, but this is EXACTLY because Jesus taught salvation by grace and not by works. Look at the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son in Luke 15.
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Leviticus 19:2
‘Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them: You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.’
Holiness here means to be set apart from the other pagan nations.
Leviticus 18:13
“‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.
I have never been tempted to have sex with my auntie. Perhaps you have a problem in this area. Do get some help.
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Jesus taught salvation apart from any sacrifice – his or anyone else’s – See Mark 10. The alleged death for our sins idea is superfluous and redundant.
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Paul – “Holiness here means to be set apart from the other pagan nations”
Set apart in what way? Being holy, means being holy like God. That is what it says. Is God holy only because He is different from us? Of course not, He is holy because He is utterly morrally pure and perfefct. When looking at the context, I see a whole list of laws and commands in chapter 19. If you are referring to the previous chapter, well let’s see what it says. First there is a whole list of sexual immorality that the previous inhabitants were doing and so brought judgment on them. Then it sums it up in vs 24 “Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.” So if you think this is to explain 19:2, then unholiness means to be defiled by such sexual immorality. Being different from the pagan cultures IS to be morally perfect. So the context from chapter 18 and 19 both refer to holiness as following God’s commands and not committing evil as other nations did.
As for chapter 18:13, I just realised i misquoted the verse. I meant Deutoronomy 18:13 which reads “You shall be blameless before the Lord your God.”
The context interestingly is very similar, also condemning pagan practices from previous nations and that they should not follow this.
As for sacrifice for sin, this is very clear from scripture:
“For the [a]life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for (B)it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’ Leviticus 17:11
Even if someone unintentionally sins, he is guilty before God and needs a sacrifice for atonement:
“Now if a person sins and does any of the things [e]which the Lord has commanded not to be done, (L)though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment. Leviticus 11:17
So to sum it up: Jesus taught people that the law must be upheld and fulfilled. He also taught that He had come from sinners and not for righteous people. (Luke 5:32). Yet He also taught that it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of God by following the law and human effort in Mark 10:24-27 Now before you start saying that this only applies to the rich, Jesus responds to Peter who asked a universal question “Who then can be saved?” Jesus asnwers:
‘With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.’ (vs27).
So somehow God was going to make entering the Kingdom possible for people inspite of them not being able to follow the law. How?
Jesus explains at the last supper:
“While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, ‘Take and eat; this is my body.’
Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matthew 26:26-28)
There is the link between the old testament sacrifices, the super high standard and demand of the Mosaic law and the possibility to be right with God where God forgives without compromising His own holiness by tolerating people’s sin. This has been modelled in the old testament, it has been prophesied by the prophets and has been fulfilled and accomplished by Jesus. And THIS is the gospel that both Jesus and Paul preached.
Japie
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“Jesus taught salvation apart from any sacrifice – his or anyone else’s – See Mark 10. The alleged death for our sins idea is superfluous and redundant.”
I think I have answered this in my last post. Mark 10 is not going to support your argument here though. Jesus was actually making it harder for the Rich man to enter the kingdom. The point He was making was that if you want to enter the kingdom by way of following the law, then you have to go all the way and be perfect in everything, both by heart and external behavior (see Mark 7). At the end of the conversation, Jesus even begins to say “How hard is it to enter the Kingdom of God” making this universal. Then Peter following on from this exclaimed in despair “Who then can be saved?”. Jesus didn’t say, oh just do so and so. No, He said “By man this is impossible, with God all things are possible”.
Japie
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Yahyahsnow – “did Paul (of Tarsus, not Williams) believe the stuff he was writing was inspired by God or not?”
How is this relevant to the discussion? We’re talking about the teachings of Jesus and that of Paul. Whether you think either of them is inspired by God is not the question here. So I am not going to engage with that lest the thread gets derailed.
“Also did Paul close the door to salvation or did he leave room for trinitarian Christians to believe in another Prophet after Jesus p?”
What makes you think either Paul or Jesus or any New Testament writer had left open any door for any other prophet?
But if you must know, Jesus warned us against false prophets:
“At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”
So do you blame me if someone says to me that there is this other prophet, a final one and it’s just like Christianity, (apart from a couple of bits of teaching which so happen to be the core of the gospel) I get a bit suspicious? Having been warned by Jesus Himself??
As far as Paul is concerned:
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1-4)
“No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:37-38)
So tell me, what more is there to be done? What prophet can possibly trump this?
Or see for example: “The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Corinthians 15:56-57)
So did he leave open the door for another prophet? Who cares?? What could he possibly add? Paul and Jesus are clearly teaching completeness. Thank God!!
Amen
Japie
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