Sam Shamoun and Lying: Part 1

Sam Shamoun and Lying

cc-shamoun-idiot

By Shabir Ally

published (with permission) September 30, 2015

During my debate with David Wood on ABNSAT, Sam Shamoun called in to challenge one of my statements. According to my statement, Robert Gundry said that the formula in Matthew 28 does not imply that the three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the same name. Rather, the formula means that baptism should be done with fundamental reference to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Sam claimed that Gundry wrote no such thing, and he had Gundry’s books to prove it. I pointed out that I was referring to another book by Gundry.

But Sam was not convinced by my plea. Rather, he was convinced that I was lying. Hence he wrote to that effect here:

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2015/09/catching-shabir-ally-red-handed.html?m=1

In that document, Sam cites two books of Gundry, and links to a third, all to prove that Gundry did not voice the view I attributed to him.

However, in each case he is referring to a book other than the one I was referring to. As I am away from my hometown at the moment, I cannot check the reference at the moment, but here is something I found on my laptop that I had written elsewhere complete with a reference to the book I was referring to.

As for the apparent Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19, Robert H. Gundry writes that “Matthew seems to be responsible for the present formula.”

As will be immediately clear, this is not the same as any of the three books Sam cited or referred to in his above linked article. It should also be clear that Gundry is saying that Matthew is responsible for the saying whereas we would expect Christians to think that Jesus actually said this.

Sam apparently assumed that the books he came across are the only books that Gundry wrote on the subject. Instead of hastily composing an article claiming that I was lying, he should have asked me for the reference to the specific book I was citing, and then check the reference in that book. As it turns out, people these days are too quick to assume the worst about other people but the best about themselves.

Even if it turns out that the book I was referring to does not contain the material I cited, does this necessitate a charge of lying? Or, could it be a case of citing from memory and recalling incorrectly as humans sometimes do?

During the debate itself, I cited many other books, some of which I had on the desk before me. These too I cited from memory, as is my usual style in debates. I do not claim that my memory is impeccable.

However, in how many cases did Sam find a significant discrepancy between my citations and my named sources? If it is just this one, does that require such a serious charge? Is Sam here exhibiting the usual charitableness of Christians? If we go about slinging such uncharitable accusations against each other will that lead to better dialogue and mutual understanding?

When I get back to Toronto, I will check again to see if my memory serves me correctly, and thus that Gundry said what I cited him to say. Otherwise, I will issue a public retraction. But if what I cited is correct, will Sam retract his article and issue an apology for his false accusation?

Meanwhile, it is interesting to know that after Gundry published this critical commentary in 1982, some evangelical scholars called for his resignation from the Evangelical Theological Society. He resigned in 1983.

Does that sound like Gundry was saying in this book what Sam wants to hear?



Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship, Books, Christianity, Islam

21 replies

  1. As human we are prone to make mistakes, I hope Dr. Shabir Ally didn’t take it to the heart. I stand corrected not worth debating and even replying.

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  2. That being said, I am quite certain Dr. Shabir Ally as a humble man will forgive and Move on.

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  3. My friend did a Google search:

    Matthew: A commentary on his handbook for a mixed church under Persecution” -2nd Edition by Robert H. Gundry states on page 596:

    “Therefore Matthew seems to be responsible for the present formula. But the formula does not imply utterance of the Trinitarian phrase at the time of baptism. “

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  4. Time for me to also expose you Paul. Enjoy!

    SHABIR ALLY CONTINUES TO EMBARRASS HIMSELF.

    In a further attempt to save face and justify his misquopting Robert Gundry, Ally sent a response to a rather dishonest, deceptive slandering Muhammadan to be published for all to see.

    Lord willing, I am going to write a thorough refutation of Ally’s smoke and mirrors to be published within the upcoming week. For now I want to address his following claim:

    “In that document, Sam cites two books of Gundry, and links to a third, all to prove that Gundry did not voice the view I attributed to him.

    However, in each case he is referring to a book other than the one I was referring to. As I am away from my hometown at the moment, I cannot check the reference at the moment, but here is something I found on my laptop that I had written elsewhere complete with a reference to the book I was referring to.

    As for the apparent Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19, Robert H. Gundry writes that “Matthew seems to be responsible for the present formula.” [1]”

    And here is the source which he claims he was citing from:

    [1] Robert H. Gundry, Matthew: A Commentary on His Literary and Theological Art (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1982) p. 596.

    Talk about a gent who will go to any lengths to save face!

    What makes this truly embarrassing for Ally is that GUNDRY WRITES THE SAME EXACT THING IN THE 1982 EDITION THAT HE DID IN THE SECOND EDITION PUBLISHED IN 1995, WHICH I QUOTED!

    Here it is, once again, for all to read:

    “For those who enter the school of Christ, baptism is the rite of initiation. Matthew describes this baptism as ‘into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ eis to onoma is a favorite phrase of his (3,2) and occurs nowhere else in the synoptics. Further Mattheanisms include patros (22,13), hyiou (27,16), and hagiou pneumatos (0,3). Matthew edited the story of Jesus’ baptism so as TO EMPHASIZE THE TRINITY (see the comments on 3:16-17; cf. 12:28); yet only Jesus’ name is associated with baptism in Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 1 Cor. 1:13, 15 (cf. Rom 6:3; 1 Cor 6:11; 10:1-4). Therefore Matthew seems to be responsible for the present formula. But the formula does not imply utterance OF THE TRINITARIAN PHRASE at the time of baptism. Instead ‘in the name of’ means ‘with fundamental reference to’ and distinguishes Christian baptism, demanding allegiance TO THE TRIUNE GOD, from John’s baptism, requiring only repentance.” (Robert Gundry, Matthew: A Commentary on HisHandbook for a Mixed Church Under Persecution [Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI; 2 edition,1995)], p. 596; bold and capital emphasis ours)

    Do you see his deception here? Gundry wrote THE SAME EXACT THING IN THE 1982 EDITION THAT HE DID IN 1995! I EVEN HAVE A PHOTO OF THE ACTUAL PAGE FROM THE 1982 ON MY IPHONE TO PROVE IT!

    This is why I said Ally needs to be exposed and put to shame for his dishonest manhandling of sources. Lord willing, it is going to get a lot worse for Ally when my thorough rebuttal comes out, as well as my article where I will end up using Ally’s own words to prove that he basically condemned Muhammad for being an adulterer who condoned adultery!

    So look for my articles on these topics.

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  5. Sam are you OK? You seem to have some psychological problems.

    Shabir has written:

    ‘When I get back to Toronto, I will check again to see if my memory serves me correctly, and thus that Gundry said what I cited him to say. Otherwise, I will issue a public retraction. But if what I cited is correct, will Sam retract his article and issue an apology for his false accusation?’

    Sounds reasonable to me.

    So Sam, chill out, relax, take some deep breaths. No one has died!

    Liked by 2 people

  6. “So look for my articles on these topics.” LOL

    Liked by 1 person

  7. LOL, oh this is to funny, exposing the utter HYPOCRACY of Muslims.

    Dr. James White in a debate with Shabir Ally quotes from the wrong book, and for years afterwords he is labeled a LIAR. Muslims make and share countless you tube video’s with such eye grabbing titles as “James White EXPOSED” and James White is a liar etc…. Muslims on this blog, and I’m pretty sure the blog owner himself jumped on the “JAMES WHITE LIAR” tirade in one version or another his .org blog, and lets not forget the countless comments on various blogs labeling Dr White a liar for this very mistake.

    But Shabir Ally does the same thing and he is not a liar. LOL

    Its like I always say. Want to expose Islam, just let Muslims talk and type. Eventually they will do it for you.

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  8. Robert Wells

    You said;
    But Shabir Ally does the same thing and he is not a liar. LOL

    Its like I always say. Want to expose Islam, just let Muslims talk and type. Eventually they will do it for you.

    I say;
    No Shabir Ally did not lie but Sam Shamoun.

    I do not know the book, but Paul Williams has googled search and produced the book and the quote above, so it is Sam Shamoun who has to apologize for lying.

    I watched the video by Shabbir and Wood and Sam Shamoun has edited and cut the video where Shabbir Ally did his cross fire. You see Christian deceptions? Mr. Well? Kindly tell them to produce the full video. Despite the editing the video to the whims, Shabbir clearly outclassed David Wood. Sham Shamoun if you happen to read, please post Shabbir cross fire section on youtube.

    Thanks

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Talk about a morally sick demented Muslim. How could I edit any video when I don’t own the footage nor am I an employee of ABN? You see the kind of lying, dishonest slandering pseudo-intellectuals that Muhaammad’s Sunna produces and why I said that non-intellectual is a troll pretending to be intelligent and qualified to address issues which are beyond his ability to comprehend?

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  10. Sam Shamoun

    You said;
    Talk about a morally sick demented Muslim. How could I edit any video when I don’t own the footage nor am I an employee of ABN? You see the kind of lying, dishonest slandering pseudo-intellectuals that Muhaammad’s Sunna produces and why I said that non-intellectual is a troll pretending to be intelligent and qualified to address issues which are beyond his ability to comprehend?

    I say;
    Sorry Sam. Forgive me my sins for thinking you are part of ABN or their employee because I watch tonnes of your videos on youtube having control on air and also calling at will when any Muslim is on the show. I thought you have a say, control, and decision on the station together with David Wood and Nabil Quraish on how you want to run the show when there is a Muslim guest or to cut and edit videos.

    I sincerely apologize if that is not the case. All the same tell them to release the cross fire section where Shabbir Ally asks David Wood questions. I saw David asking Shabbir multiple of questions but did not see Shabbir asking David questions but some commercials instead.

    Thanks.

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  11. Paul thanks for the spelling correction. My personal assistent just went on maturnity leave so I have an opening in my company and I think u wouldake a great fit in my organization. I offer dental and vision as well paid holidays.

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  12. Oh cool. Keep correcting my spelling mistakes for free. Save me money

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  13. I’m not. Normally I pay some one to check my spelling and grammar. But if ur willing to do it for free I won’t stop u. Mo money fo me lol

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  14. I would spend what money you have on going back to school and learning to write English properly. I hate to see you embarrassing yourself like this. Perhaps English is not your first language?

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  15. I thought Robert was a White supremacist who has English as his mother language. I do mistakes everyday but to spell hypocrisy as hypocracy is beyond me.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Paul wrote…

    I would spend what money you have on going back to school and learning to write English properly.

    My response: Why? I pay people to do that, kind of like I pay people to cut my grass. But hey if you’re willing to do the work for free…

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  17. Robert Wells

    This proves that you also migrated to the west as your English is not good like a westerner, but you keep asking Muslims who most will have better English than you not to migrate to west as you did proved you migrated to west because the English also migrated to west but their English is good and they will not spell hypocrisy as hypocracy.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Bobby “Mo money fo me lol”

    “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.” Luke 6:24

    Like

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