The Tanakh is the canon of the Hebrew Bible. The traditional Hebrew text is known as the Masoretic Text.
Tanakh is an acronym of the first Hebrew letter of each of the Masoretic Text’s three traditional subdivisions: Torah (“Teaching”, also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi’im (“Prophets”) and Ketuvim (“Writings”)—hence TaNaKh. The books of the Tanakh were passed on by each generation, and according to rabbinic tradition were accompanied by an oral tradition, called the Oral Torah.
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One must ask: who was right, God or Paul?
Categories: Bible, Christianity, Judaism
Blogging Theology 
Great point Paul. Yes, one of the most important verses in departing sharply from the Tanakh.
Nice list of verses of righteousness…I assume there are more such verses like the ones you listed.
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yes this is but a small selection.
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In the TaNaKh – the believers have a relative righteousness; it is never perfect.
Noah was a righteous man only because of the grace of the LORD that He put on him first – Genesis 6:8 –
First: “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
Verse 9 “. . . Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.” – only because God first worked in his heart by grace to give Him the ability to obey God and walk with Him.
but after the flood, Noah gets drunk, and acts lewdly – Genesis 9:21
The intent of the historical narrative of Genesis chapters 6-9 is showing that even the “righteousness” of Old Testament saints is a relative righteousness – no one is perfectly righteous. (except God and Jesus Christ)
Psalm 14 – also from the TaNaKh –
There is no one who does good.
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
I Kings 8:46 – also in the TaNakh
“For there is no man who does not sin . . . ” = there is no one who is perfectly righteous.
The Qur’an also agrees with this:
Surah 16:61
“If Allah were to take to task all of mankind for the wrongdoing he has done, there would be none left on earth. . . “
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Ken temple says “In the TaNaKh – the believers have a relative righteousness; it is never perfect.”
Luke 1:6 says “Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.”
Ken, God does need/want “perfectly righteous” (whatever that means) humans. He wants us to be sincerely human, what else?
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Ken,
Yes the Qur’an says that we all do wrong and if the criterion was only whether someone does right or wrong, then we will all fail.
But there are numerous verses in the Qur’an that indicate a person can still be overall good while not being perfect.
As Bill Clinton (I know not a good exemplar) said…”Don’t let perfection be the enemy of the good.” I might have missed his exact quote.
It is illogical, absurd, blasphemous, and cruel to think that God will just put all who are perfect like God into fire.
If we teach students, would we fail everyone who did not get 100% in the course?
Come on!
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God does not operate by human standards.
Isa Al Masih (Jesus the Christ) عیسی مسیح said, “therefore, you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
The law is meant to show us we are sinners and cannot live up to it and to drive us to trust in Christ and His atoning death and resurrection from the dead.
Galatians 3:24
Romans 10:4
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‘The law is meant to show us we are sinners and cannot live up to it’
Says who? God?
No.
God is clear, it is NOT too difficult to obey the commandments. God says:
‘Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today [to obey all the commandments of the law] is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?” 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?” 14 No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.’
Obeying the commandments brings God’s blessing and prosperity:
‘See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God[b] that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.’
Deuteronomy 30
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Jesus commanded his disciples to obey all the commandments of the law:
‘Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach.’
and
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others.”
Matthew 23
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Omer wrote:
Yes the Qur’an says that we all do wrong and if the criterion was only whether someone does right or wrong, then we will all fail.
Surah 16:61 says more than that, it says that if Allah would pour out His justice against all the evil and wrongdoing of mankind, no human would be left.
” If Allah were to take mankind to task for their wrong-doing, he would not leave hereon a living creature, . . . “
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“God does not operate by human standards.” Yeah, sure. But He is “truly man”?
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Ken when you talk to other christians do you always refer to Jesus as “Isa Al Masih”?
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In addition to the several passages from the Tanakh quoted by Mr. Temple, here are some more:
– “The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.” (Genesis 8:21)
– “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:2)
– “And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous.” (Psalm 143:2)
– “Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
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There are many people in the Torah whom God calls “righteous”.
Remember: the Jewish Scriptures provide ample testimony that although man may have an inclination towards evil (Genesis 8:21) the means of reestablishing a right relationship with God are always at hand for Jew and non-Jew alike through sincere repentance (Psalms 32:5). This is the teaching of Islam also.
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Thanks Mark – I was thinking of those verses, but did not look them up. Thanks for adding them into the discussion!
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Indeed, the verses Mark has given are excellent verses for this issue.
“And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous.” (Psalm 143:2)
– “Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
Paul,
the Deuteronomy passage does not mean “it is easy to obey the law”; rather look at the context – it is saying you cannot say “I didn’t know” – it’s not in heaven hidden away or secret or beyond the sea” – ie, it is not difficult to find, read, know, and be responsible for it.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?” 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?” 14 No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.’
It is in your mouth and in your heart – (if you read it and learned it) – they were supposed to listen to it, read it and obey it; but no one can obey it completely or perfectly.
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“Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
righteousness is not defined by perfection but by repentance and doing what’s right.
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God encourages Israel to obey all the law – expecting them to have the ability to succeed (with God’s help of course).
God makes it very clear that it is not difficult to obey the law. Ken you ignore this word from God. Why?
You keep speaking of “perfection”. But God does not mention that or require it.
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“This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, and it is not beyond your reach. 12 It is not kept in heaven, so distant that you must ask, ‘Who will go up to heaven and bring it down so we can hear it and obey?’ 13 It is not kept beyond the sea, so far away that you must ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to bring it to us so we can hear it and obey?’ 14 No, the message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart so that you can obey it.”
Therefore it is quite possible for Israel – if they so chose – to obey the law. And that constitutes righteousness in God’s sight. Paul of course disagrees in Galatians 2:21 which is why I did this post to highlight this significant fact.
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No, God did not mean that Deut. passage to mean what you are spinning it to mean. God is saying “no excuses” – you cannot say “I didn’t know” and “it’s too far away or hidden” (in heaven or beyond the sea) – God is saying they are responsible and God holds them accountable. You ignore the import of the text.
Then, later,
Jesus the Messiah / Isa Al Masih عیسی المسیح , whom you claim is also a prophet of Islam, said if you have lust in your heart, you are guilty of hell. Matthew 5:27-30
Jesus said if have hatred and anger in your heart, you are guilty of hell. (Matthew 5:21-26)
Mark 7:20-23
20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
Jesus and the Bible get to the internal roots of sin, not just the external actions of legalistic law and rituals (which is the emphasis in Islam). Vozu / Wudu وضو (ritual washings before the Salaat prayers) cannot cleanse your hearts. Neither can ritual Salaat prayers, nor Zakat, nor Haj, nor Shahada (Confession of the Islamic Creed), nor fasting during Ramadan.
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“Repentance in the Bible means…”
No Ken, not in the Bible, just in Paul’s letters. Jesus does not teach this, neither does Moses, or Abraham or Isaac, nor David, nor Solomon, etc etc.
Your straw man of Islam is dead wrong and betrays a woeful ignorance of the faith. I have been a committed evangelical christian and i know what you are getting at when you talk about sin and repentance. I can assure you there is equal depth in repentance from sin taught in Islam. But you will never admit this because it threatens the exclusive truth of your religion.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Thanks Mark – I was thinking of those verses, but did not look them up. Thanks for adding them into the discussion!
I say;
What you and Mark quoted are all about sins and we all know about sins and it means human beings who are sinners and want to be true believers should live with repentance as you Ken Temple agreed on the thread “The flaw of Christian apologetics” and you agreed just like Islam without blood and you said this;
“A true believer lives a life of repentance”
Ken Temple you said the above
Proof
https://bloggingtheology.net/2015/10/31/the-flaw-in-christian-apologetics/
All of a sudden you changed your stance from “repentance” to “perfection” but you never said;
“A true believer lives a life of perfection”
The above quotes are totally different and tell us which one do you sincerely believe? Repentance is different from perfection.
Human beings can only repent from their sins and asks for forgiveness from God which all human being does including Christians.
No one including Jesus can be perfect like God because Jesus himself said he is not perfect in knowing the day of judgement.
It is blaspheme to think human being can be perfect like God. No God is God and no one can be perfect like God but we seek repentance and God’s forgiveness to be close to God and/but not perfection because we cannot be perfect like God.
Thanks
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All of a sudden you changed your stance from “repentance” to “perfection” but you never said;
“A true believer lives a life of perfection”
The above quotes are totally different and tell us which one do you sincerely believe? Repentance is different from perfection.
I did not change my stance. A true believer in Jesus, even as we are born-again and new creatures, never live perfectly. We have to constantly repent and surrender and trust in Jesus to sustain us.
I agree that I never said that and that repentance is different than perfection; I never said, “a true believer lives a life of perfection”. No one can ever get there; that is why we need Christ to live inside of us by the Holy Spirit.
“Christ in you, the hope of glory” – Colossians 1:27
the verse right before the one Paul put up as this blog article:
“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” Galatians 2:20
Repentance in the Bible means realizing one is a sinner by nature and that you cannot be good enough, to turn away from your sinfulness and to turn toward Christ, to fall in surrender and trust in Jesus and His atonement and resurrection for you. It is not a surface and shallow repenting of some individual external sin or action (as in Islam), but a turning of heart from the sinful disposition to trust in Christ.
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Ken what does this mean when God says to Israel:
“This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you..”
Deuteronomy 30:11
Tell me, what command is this exactly?
and what exactly is it not difficult for Israel to do?
Btw as Islam accepts that Jesus was a prophet and Messiah his authentic teachings are a part of Islam too. The quotes above you cite are part of a muslim’s faith as well!
As a Muslim I fully accept the profound truth of Matthew 5:27-30, Matthew 5:21-26 & Mark 7:20-23.
Jesus is not your personal property. All believers (some Jews, all Christians and all Muslims and others too) acknowledge his teaching as from God.
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Btw Ken when you talk to your Christian friends about Jesus do you refer to him as
‘Jesus the Messiah / Isa Al Masih عیسی المسیح ‘ ?
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Ken Temple
You said;
Jesus and the Bible get to the internal roots of sin, not just the external actions of legalistic law and rituals (which is the emphasis in Islam). Vozu / Wudu وضو (ritual washings before the Salaat prayers) cannot cleanse your hearts. Neither can ritual Salaat prayers, nor Zakat, nor Haj, nor Shahada (Confession of the Islamic Creed), nor fasting during Ramadan.
I say;
May be Ken you do not know Islam and need to attend some Islamic school, possibly the US Islamic University called Zaytuna Institute founded by MarK Hanson(Sheikh Hamza Yusuf- he travelled to north Africa, Middle East, Asia, Europe, Americas and attended so many Islamic Institutions, Universities etc.) to acquire his knowledge and so are all Islamic scholars.
You do not understand fasting in Islam and probably you will learn it at Zaytuna
a. Fasting in Islam is both both internal and external purification of the heart to get closer(not perfect as God because no one can be perfect like God and is blaspheme) to God.
During fasting, you can eat alone and drink in your room, but your heart is telling you that God Almighty is watching you and you never drink or eat till the time comes. What purification of hear is more than this? Holy Spirit? Holy Spirit who was not there to help Abraham and Moses and Jesus but all of them fasted for the purifications of their hearts and get closer to God without Holy Spirit.
During fasting Muslims submits himself to his creator and keep reading Gods word and abstain from all evil and it is a learning curve to continue to abstain ones self from all sins after Ramadan.
Fasting reminds the individual of how other poor people feel when they are hungry and without anything and the heart is purified to feel for other people who are poor and so many purification of the heart.
b. Wudu and Salaat. Jesus himself perform salaat and all prophets perform Salaat and Wudu. Jews from the time of Moses, before and today performs Salaat. and it is the heart that tells a believer to stop whatever he is doing to go and meditate towards His Creator and it is both external and internal purification of the heart.
The Holy Spirit cannot help you if you do not help yourself and depending on someone’s blood. Saturday was Halloween and I do not think the Almighty God is interested in the blood he creates before He forgives sin. No, our human(law) does not affect God but humans alone.
God does not owe anyone and is not oblige to sacrifice Himself for anyone’s sin. It is human beings who owe others and God can compensate them in other ways but not sacrifice.
Christian sacrifice reminds me of Father who created law for his younger kids to go to bed at 8.00 pm of face lashes. Of cause the Father is the father of the house and the law does not apply to him because he is and adult and have his control and projects to complete to work and to see to his wife and other adult children who the law does not affect but the younger kids alone.
You know kids are naughty, the Father caught one of the kids who was not asleep by 8:00 but instead troubling another kid who wants to sleep by hitting him(the obedient) child.
So, the Father as promised is going to give some lashes to the naughty child and the chid fell to his knees and start crying and begging the Father, that he will never do that again and pleaded to the child he hit and all of them pleaded with the Father to forgive the child.
It will be absurd for the Father to say “I am a Father of Justice and I love my sons and I cannot say, I will not satisfy justice and in order to do that, I will have to give myself some lashes to atone for the naughty child”
If the Father is Ken Temples friend and Ken sees his friend bare chested and lashing himself with a whip made with wire and blood oozing from his body and Ken Temple will say to him “You are mad”, “You have the discretion to forgive without harming yourself and your children’s law you created yourself does not apply to you. You can buy some candy or toy to the offending child if you wish to compensate him but it is optional and you can even decide not to do anything but just forgive and forgiveness is free of charge. Any forgiveness that demands punishment is not forgiveness.
It is only a wicked Father of a wicked God who will punish the Child at all cost, normally pagan gods never forgives someone who does wrong to them or who disobeyed their law.
Ken will reply me and say all these are human understanding but not God for I have compared God to man. I will swiftly reply to Ken and say My dear Ken you said God became man. What the heck blaming me of comparing God and man. I am not comparing God and man but you Ken did by saying God became man. My analogy is just telling you that God is not a man and therefore you cannot apply the law of man to God in some way like punishment because no one punishes God and it is absurd for God to punish himself.
Thanks
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Ken Temple
You said;
I did not change my stance. A true believer in Jesus, even as we are born-again and new creatures, never live perfectly. We have to constantly repent and surrender and trust in Jesus to sustain us.
I agree that I never said that and that repentance is different than perfection; I never said, “a true believer lives a life of perfection”. No one can ever get there; that is why we need Christ to live inside of us by the Holy Spirit.
“Christ in st in Jyou, the hope of glory” – Colossians 1:27
the verse right before the one Paul put up as this blog article:
“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” Galatians 2:20
I say;
Unfortunately for you Prophets Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jacob, Solomon etc. and all prophets of God never believed what you believed;
“to constantly repent and surrender and trust in Jesus to sustain us.”. There is no evidence all these prophets constantly surrendered themselves and trust in Jesus to sustain them. All prophets of God never believed Jesus Christ live inside them by the Holy Spirit.
Holy Spirit came at or after Pentecost, so Moses and all prophet of God just like Muslims repent to God straight and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirt or Jesus.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said
I did not change my stance. A true believer in Jesus, even as we are born-again and new creatures, never live perfectly. We have to constantly repent and surrender and trust in Jesus to sustain us.
I say;
“constantly repent”? by Christians? My Good God!!!, I can’t believe this by a missionary Christian. A Christian has to constantly repent? just like Muslims and Jews who has no one died for their sins? Where is the payment that Jesus sacrificed himself to wipe out your sins if you are responsible for your sins Christians and needs repentance?
So, Jesus death on the cross remains useless to a Christians as well except repentance according o Ken Temple.
That is Islamic i.e. constant repentance and now Ken Temple is becoming Muslims by highlighting much on constant repentance rather than the death of Jesus Christ.
It is wrong and lie to say Jesus died for the sins of man, if repentance stands in a way of Jesus death to wipe out sins, because Jesus death could not wipe the sins of Christians without repentance, so repentance wins as Islam says rather than the blood of Jesus Christ.
Thanks
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Abraham is mentioned as God’s friend in both the Tanakh and the Qur’an.
Abraham was not perfect like God…but he was still characterized as his friend.
It is sheer evilness to think that if someone is not perfect, then they deserve to suffer in fire.
This is not human standards or the standards of Vulcans in Star Trek or those living on the planet Tatoonine in the movie Star Wars.
This is the rock bottom standard of right and wrong that is the fundamental of morals imprinted in all our hearts and all our minds.
Again to think that those who are not perfect like God deserve fire, let alone eternal fire is wicked thinking.
When God speaks of the fact that if He took people to account for their wrongdoing that He would not leave anyone left on earth, what He is simply communicating is that no one is perfect….we all forget how we have shortcomings all the time…God is reminding us.
God tells us clearly in the Qur’an that we cannot be perfect but we must stay away from the big sins.
God is not saying that after taking everyone off of earth for doing any sins, He will put them in hell…that is Ken’s theology…it is not God’s way for God is not evil and suggesting that He is, is a wicked evil way that seems to exist only to support one’s religious identity rather than submitting to goodness and truth and logic.
Sorry Ken…I wish the best for you all the time…but I need to call a spade a spade.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Repentance in the Bible means realizing one is a sinner by nature and that you cannot be good enough, to turn away from your sinfulness and to turn toward Christ, to fall in surrender and trust in Jesus and His atonement and resurrection for you. It is not a surface and shallow repenting of some individual external sin or action (as in Islam), but a turning of heart from the sinful disposition to trust in Christ.
I say;
If God created us by our nature as sinners, there is nothing we can do about that but to follow His(God’s) law and sincerely repent from our sins and pray for forgiveness.
No one can turn his sinfulness nature to perfection like the perfection of God and no spirit can change our sinfulness nature to a perfection of God. It is blaspheme to think a human being can become perfect like God because of some spirit that entered into him(human being).
We do not need perfection but sincere repentance and to strive(Jihad) to the way of God and that is all.
IT IS TO OBEY GOD AND FOLLOW GOD’S COMMANDMENT AND TO STRIVE TO THE WAY OF GOD AND ONE CANNOT BE 100% BUT TRY TO ATTAIN SALVATION INSTEAD OF RELYING ON SOMEONE’S BLOOD TO TAKE AWAY YOUR SINFUL NATURE WHICH IT CANNOT BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU(HUMAN BEING) IS CREATED.
IT IS OUR NATURE TO SIN AND NO ONE AND NO BLOOD CAN TAKE THAT NATURE FROM US, EXCEPT WE FOLLOW GOD’S LAW AND WORSHIP ONLY,ONE AND ALONE GOD AND STRIVE FOR GODS FORGIVENESS.
Sorry for the capital letters, I am trying to make an important point.
Thanks
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Brother Omar, remember to say ‘It’s my personal belief that Allah is saying this…’ because if you don’t have absolute evidence it’s like lying.
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muslimtheology
You said;
Brother Omar, remember to say ‘It’s my personal belief that Allah is saying this…’ because if you don’t have absolute evidence it’s like lying.
I say;
This is what Allah said;
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Ken Temple
November 2, 2015 • 4:51 pm
Omer wrote:
Yes the Qur’an says that we all do wrong and if the criterion was only whether someone does right or wrong, then we will all fail.
Surah 16:61 says more than that, it says that if Allah would pour out His justice against all the evil and wrongdoing of mankind, no human would be left.
” If Allah were to take mankind to task for their wrong-doing, he would not leave hereon a living creature, . . . “
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The above quoted by Ken Temple is just a question by God and it clearly means If Allah were to punish every wrong doing, any one would have been punished.
It also stated that God would judge anyone and any wrong doing would be judged because God is God of justice. It does not mean any wronged that had been judged would be punished. No, some wrong will be judged but not punished because the wrongdoer has sincerely repented and was forgiven.
In Islam forgiveness is free of charge and will not be punished once the person is forgiven either by his victim or by God. No punishment and that is forgiveness and that is what forgiveness means.
It is only a human law court or a pagan gods who will punish an offense or sin at all cost. God’s forgiveness is called God Mercy and it is free of charge and with no cost at all.
Thanks
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The system of “internal purification of the heart” ( Sufism or Tassawuf تصوف ) was developed much later after the Qur’an was finished. Tim Winter (Abdal Hakim Murad) admitted this in an article that Paul William’s had on his old blog.
There is not much emphasis on internal sins in the Qur’an.
Islam is mostly an external legalistic system.
The Sufis were disillusioned with the dryness and legalistic and external emphasis of that and the Sharia and developed the internal emphasis later.
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when you say “There is not much emphasis on internal sins in the Qur’an.
How much? Could you cite some examples?
btw my surname is Williams.
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Abraham was not perfect like God…but he was still characterized as his friend.
Yes, because he was looking forward to the Messiah, the one who would be a blessing to all the nations.
Abraham’s faith was in The LORD and His promise to send someone from his own offspring in the future who would be a blessing to all the nations.
Genesis 12:3; 15:1-6; 22:18. (Galatians 3:6-8 and 3:16 also tells us this.)
Jesus Al Masih shows us this clearly – John 8:56-58.
Abraham rejoiced to see My day and was glad.
Before Abraham was born, I am.
The Jews picked up stones to stone Him.
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sorry for typo on your name, Williams
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my name keeps on giving you problems Ken.
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Ken when you talk to fellow Christians about Jesus do you call him “Jesus Al Masih”?
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There is nothing like Mark 7:20-23 and Matthew 5:21-30 in the Qur’an.
It is you who would have to give examples of the deeper teaching of internal sins.
There is some in the Qur’an about the sins of the heart, but it is not a deep emphasis, as in Christianity. (Both OT and NT)
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Ken do you assume Muslims are Arab? Do you think I am an Arab? Looks like you do.
You say “There is not much emphasis on internal sins in the Qur’an” implying it exists but not a great deal.
So I ask you again to prove your claim. Give us an example…
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I use the phrase Isa Al Masih or Jesus Al Masih deliberately here with Muslims, to point out the true Isa Al Masih is the NT teaching.
of course, with Christians, it is just Jesus Christ, or Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the Christ, or Christ Jesus.
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Jesus was a Muslim prophet so it is quite possible that Mark 7:20-23 and Matthew 5:21-30 reflect his true teaching. Sorry you find that unacceptable.
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Do I assume Muslims are Arabs? of course not. I am using the language of the Qur’an, and most other non Arab Muslims know a lot of Arabic words and phrases also. عیسی المسیح Isa Al Masih is a Qur’anic phrase, as the Qur’an was originally in Arabic.
I see nothing wrong with using Arabic Qur’anic phrases.
In Farsi, we have 40 % Arabic words and some phrases that are totally Arabic. Turkish has about 35 %.
When we say “the Holy Spirit” in Farsi, we say Ruh ol Qodos روح القدس – that is an Arabic phrase, as Farsi does not have Al ال – the definite article. the pure Farsi phrase would be Ruh e Pak. روح پاک , but even then, Ruh is an Arabic word. Pak means “holy”, “clean”, “pure” and in “Pakistan” – the holy land (as separate from the idol worship land of the Hindus). Urdu is also a combination of Hindi and Persian and Arabic languages. (Maybe others also)
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Of course Mark 7:20-23 and Matthew 5:21-30 is His true teaching. But Jesus was not a Muslim prophet, though you claim He was.
Islam did not exist until Muhammad.
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The fact that the five pillars of Islam are all external deeds points to the emphasis – saying the Shahada, praying Salaat, doing Wudu before that, paying Zakat, fasting during Ramadan, going on Haj, etc. – these are all external ritual deeds.
Also, the emphasis on not eating pork or shell fish and not drinking wine, and dressing properly is another emphasis – all externals. Many Muslim men (not all) seem to blame lust on women who dress immodestly. ( I have had many discussions with Muslim men over the past 32 years and they pretty much agreed that it was the woman’s fault for their own lusts.)
Also, on your own old blog, you had the article “Veiling One’s sins” – by Hamza Yusuf, that points to the tendency to hide and cover up one’s sins –
Also, Jonathan Brown, in one of the lectures you put up on one of your old blogs, said “the Caliphs did not care about what you do in your home or in your heart”, etc. – they only cared about external society.
We discussed this before and some other Muslim commentators put up a few verses about internal heart sins, but it was not a great emphasis in the Qur’an. ( in the com-box)
And the famous Hadith about “striving against one’s internal sins” (literally, hawa – lust, internal desire, whim- هوا – Jihad al nafs – is not even in the six canonical Hadith collections. It comes from a weak Hadith, from a book called “the History of Bagdad”. An Islamic scholar named Haddad even admits this. (see below)
http://www.livingislam.org/n/dgjh_e.html
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Jihad al nafs جهد النفس or جهد الهوی or هوا
Nafs نفس is the soul or self; and Hawa/hava هوا / هوی is lust, desire, whim
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You even proved my point by your recent blog post, “Everyone is born with an innate pure nature” – the hadith says that the external environment of the parents and upbringing is what makes people what they are, rather than the roots of the internal thoughts in the heart, as Jesus (Mark 7:20-23; Matthew 5:21-30), Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9-10 say.
I remember many times over the past 32 years of many Muslims saying this to me – it is the external environment that causes people to go bad.
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Jesus Al Masih says that we are naturally and innately evil (selfish, prideful in heart)
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” Matthew 7:11
Jesus confirms the doctrine of original sin.
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Ken Temple
You said;
The system of “internal purification of the heart” ( Sufism or Tassawuf تصوف ) was developed much later after the Qur’an was finished. Tim Winter (Abdal Hakim Murad) admitted this in an article that Paul William’s had on his old blog.
There is not much emphasis on internal sins in the Qur’an.
Islam is mostly an external legalistic system.
The Sufis were disillusioned with the dryness and legalistic and external emphasis of that and the Sharia and developed the internal emphasis later.
I say;
What is internal purification of the heart?
I thought it is following and obeying God’s command and spiritual cleaning oneself inward and outward such as fasting and believing God is watching you and you abstain from sin and practicing to abstain from sin after the month of Ramadan and build from their with Salaat which Jesus and all prophet and all Jews perform and are still performing today.
If the above is not both internal and external purification of the heart? then define the purification of the heart to us as you accuse our religion of not having any purification of the heart.
It is a fair question from Paul Williams as to;
///////////////////////////////////////////////
Paul Williams
November 3, 2015 • 7:12 pm
Ken do you assume Muslims are Arab? Do you think I am an Arab? Looks like you do.
You say “There is not much emphasis on internal sins in the Qur’an” implying it exists but not a great deal.
So I ask you again to prove your claim. Give us an example…
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Sufi in Arabic means meditation especially towards God and that is it. So any meditation and supplication to God is Sufism in Arabic. It does not have any specific method. So to keep talking about Sufism according to your understanding and without any intellectual or academic analysis and because some people call themselves sufi Muslims would amount to intellectual bankruptcy and philosophical dishonesty.
Thanks
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Ken Temple
You said;
Jesus Al Masih says that we are naturally and innately evil (selfish, prideful in heart)
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” Matthew 7:11
Jesus confirms the doctrine of original sin.
I say;
Human beings are not evil themselves but they do evil. Not all human beings are prideful in heart or selfish. Actually some human beings are not prideful in heart at all and are not selfish and are not evil or will immediately repent if they do sin and will never do that again. Babies are not evil and so are not having any original sin.
I know Ken you will blame God for throwing babies into hell. So there is no original sin because babies to not have sin in them.
You did not give us;
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Paul Williams
November 3, 2015 • 7:12 pm
Ken do you assume Muslims are Arab? Do you think I am an Arab? Looks like you do.
You say “There is not much emphasis on internal sins in the Qur’an” implying it exists but not a great deal.
So I ask you again to prove your claim. Give us an example…
//////////////////////////////
I have given you so many facts to proof fasting, salaat, zakat etc. and all Muslims rituals is both internal and external purification of the heart and you knew very well the Quran talks about the purification of the heart- how much do you want it in the Quran before you believe the Quran actually asks Muslims to purify their hearts is to tell us how many times you want. How many times to you want purification of the heart in the Quran?
There are purification of the heart in the Quran and if it is even once, it is there and Muslims are supposed to follow the command to purify their hearts. How many times does Ken Temple wants purification of the heart in the Quran is up to him to specify for us.
You want something from the Quran and Islam and got it, and now you changed your mind and want it the number of times you want.
If a command is said even once in the Quran yes it has been commanded to all Muslims to abide by it and purify their hearts and you do not have case, by specifying the number of times you want it to be specified.
There are so many purification of the heart in the Quran and the rituals of fasting, zakat, salaat, Hajj etc. are all purifications of the heart and helps one against sin and train the worshiper to avoid sins. The rituals helps a lot than waiting for a Holy Spirit and the HS will help Muslims if he exists because God help those who help themselves rather than Christians who do not help themselves but depending on somebody’s blood.
Thanks
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correction
I have given so many facts to prove…………..
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Ken
Islam is the original primordial religion of mankind and of course Jesus was a Muslim just as Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon were Muslims. Jesus was not a Christian and did not found the religion you follow (Christianity) which worships a Muslim prophet – which is a grave offense against God and leads to hell fire if unrepented.
***
Jesus does not ‘confirm the doctrine of original sin’ in Matthew 7:11. Jesus says absolutely nothing about an inherited spiritual defect in human nature from Adam, and how the whole human race is ‘condemned’ as a result that of that sin. You are reading later doctrines back into the mouth of Jesus.
***
“Jesus Al Masih” that is not how Muslims speak about Jesus in my experience. I think you use this phrase because you believe Muslims will relate to what you say. But we don’t. It looks contrived and artificial. But if it makes you feel comfortable using words from a language you don’t not speak – so be it.
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Ken I’m still waiting for a reply to my question above:
what does it mean when God says to Israel:
“This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you..”
Deuteronomy 30:11
Tell me, which command is this exactly?
and what exactly is it not difficult for Israel to do?
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Did you read this Ken?
https://bloggingtheology.net/2015/11/02/some-thoughts-on-the-authorship-of-isaiah-biblical-scholarship-and-fundamentalism/
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Islam is the original primordial religion of mankind . . .
No, it is not. Islam did not exist until Muhammad of Arabia in 610-632 AD.
The OT is “the primordial religion of mankind” – Genesis, Job, Romans 1:18-21, etc. It was first Judaism with the prophesies about the Messiah and His Mission that were fulfilled in the NT is the truth. Isa Al Masih said “sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.” John 17:17
there is nothing about Muhammad in the Bible.
Paul,
Ok, so you don’t like it when I type Isa Al Masih or Jesus Al Masih or عیسی المسیح
Does it bother you when Muslim speakers go off in Arabic phrases all through their lectures and also every time a prophet is mentioned, to then have to say “Peace be upon him” – “Alehe al-Salaam” علیه السلام or other even longer phrases?
Do you say your Salaat in Arabic first, then in English, 5 times per day? (as what you are supposed to do, right?) You had to say your first Shahada in Arabic, and then again when you came back to Islam after you left it for a few days. You don’t speak it fluently, yet you had to do that, right?
As I recall, you said the daily disciplines of waking up and doing Salaat early and then 4 more times, and (maybe) fasting and other requirements were too hard for you.
How is that going now?
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Ken as you are so keen on quoting Arabic do you know what the word Islam and Muslim means in the Quran when it says Abraham and Jesus were Muslims?
I have never heard a human being ever say that The OT is “the primordial religion of mankind”
Adam and Eve were not Jews. Abraham was not a Jew. The “OT” is the first part of the canon of the Christian Bible – not a religion as such.
Adam, Abraham, Jesus and Muhammad all worshipped God alone.
Will you Ken?
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Ken I’m still waiting for a reply to my question above:
what does it mean when God says to Israel:
“This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you..”
Deuteronomy 30:11
Tell me, which command is this exactly?
and what exactly is it not difficult for Israel to do?
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Paul,
“this commandment” is a general command meaning all the law – basically – turn to the LORD and follow Him and love Him. (verse 10) He doesn’t mean it is easy to obey; He means it not too difficult to find and read and understand and be accountable to.
God said He would give them the power to do it because He will circumcise their hearts – verse 6, which points to the New Covenant promise of the Holy Spirit – Ezekiel 36:26-27
But, they kept turning away from the Lord and they could not live up to it on their own power and will power; which the Lord is showing to them.
The rest of the Bible, God also says that people fail to keep the law of God, because their hearts are evil.
Moses says, after I am dead, I know that you will not be able to keep the law:
” For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.” Deut. 31:29
Jeremiah 17:9-10 – the heart of humans is deceitful and desperately wicked . . .
Isaiah 1:5 – the whole person from top to bottom is rebellious, sick and sinful
Therefore, God sent them into exile as punishment and the Assyrians and Babylonians to attack and conquer Israel. Then later, Persia, then Greece, then Rome, then the Messiah Jesus came
only Messiah Jesus could obey the law perfectly.
What do you think Moses means by
“it is not too difficult for you; – it is not across the sea; nor hidden away in heaven” – what is his main point?
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Yes, I know the Qur’an claims that Abraham and Jesus were Muslims, but the Qur’an is wrong about that.
It is just a claim by one man, 600 years after Jesus.
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I already worship the True God only. He is the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit =
One God in three persons.
There is only One God. But God is from all eternity a relationship of love – the Father and Son and Spirit in perfect spiritual oneness and unity and fellowship and purity of love.
God is love. 1 John 4:8
This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased. Mark 1:11
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The NLT rightly entitles the section: The Choice of Life or Death
11 “This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, and it is not beyond your reach. 12 It is not kept in heaven, so distant that you must ask, ‘Who will go up to heaven and bring it down so we can hear it and obey?’ 13 It is not kept beyond the sea, so far away that you must ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to bring it to us so we can hear it and obey?’ 14 No, the message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart so that you can obey it.
15 “Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster. 16 For I command you this day to love the Lord your God and to keep his commands, decrees, and regulations by walking in his ways. If you do this, you will live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you and the land you are about to enter and occupy.
17 “But if your heart turns away and you refuse to listen, and if you are drawn away to serve and worship other gods, 18 then I warn you now that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live a long, good life in the land you are crossing the Jordan to occupy.
19 “Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! 20
***
Clearly God is almost begging Israel to “choose life” by obeying the commandments. Why? Because they will bring life and prosperity to the people. This command to obey the law is not too difficult for them to obey. The meaning of Verse 11 in context is clear. Obviously a just and loving God would not exhort them to obey a law he knew they could not obey.
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Ken you said
‘Yes, I know the Qur’an claims that Abraham and Jesus were Muslims, but the Qur’an is wrong about that.’
But I asked:
do you know what the word Islam and Muslim means in the Quran when it says Abraham and Jesus were Muslims?
Care to have a go at answering the question?
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Ken Temple
You said;
I already worship the True God only. He is the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit =
One God in three persons.
There is only One God. But God is from all eternity a relationship of love – the Father and Son and Spirit in perfect spiritual oneness and unity and fellowship and purity of love.
God is love. 1 John 4:8
This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased. Mark 1:11
I say;
All the above are not true.
Why? and proof
1. Yahweh said He alone is God and no one else. Yahweh said He is the only He and He is One. So the Triune God above is false according to the Bible and Yahweh Himself but not me or any Muslim for now but the Bible itself.
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
Ken, Yahweh said He is the Only He and no one else and He is One, Only and Alone. So the other persons of the Triune Gods are excluded as part of God because Yahweh has claimed only One and Alone HE, HE, HE, HE, HE, HE, HE , HE, HE, HE.
YAHWEH SAID HE IS THE ONLY HE AND NONE ELSE AND NO ONE ELSE. Do you know what HE means? Jesus as a person is he, Holy Spirit as a person is he. But Yahweh said He is the only He and He is One and Alone, so Jesus and Holy Spirit as he each are not God and are not part of Yahweh and cannot be God because Yahweh Himself has excluded the Holy Spirit and Jesus as Gods.
No wonder, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Solomon and all prophets of God did not worship Jesus Christ at all and there is no evidence the prophets worship anyone apart from Yahweh alone. It is not a wise decision to continue worshiping a man-Jesus and the Bible said Yahweh alone is God and man is not God and man must not be worshiped.
2. God is not love because love is not a substance or a being or a person but God is a Being I.e. divine being so God cannot be love. Love, mercy, grace, compassionate etc. are all attributes or names or characteristics of God and each of them are not substance and does not have consciousness, weight or occupy space and cannot be God Himself but Gods attributes as they are called.
The concept of God of Love, Goddess of sex, Sun God, God of Love, God is Love, God of this, God of that, God of thunder etc. was from the concept of pagan Greeks and Roman that has crept into Christianity but never was in the Jewish scripture.
So God loves or hates but God is not love or hate itself. Sometimes God does not love certain things, that is why God created hell fire to burn what He does not love, so God is not love but sometimes love and sometimes God does not love, so you cannot tie love to God because sometimes God does not love but love is one of God attributes.
Relationship.
God is self sufficient and does not need anything including love or relationship to exist. It is only human being that are needy and needs love and relationship to exist. It is not mandatory for God to have love and relationship just like it is not mandatory for God to be showing mercy, forgiving, etc. God does not have to exercise His attributes by force, so the love and relationship of God by Christians is neither here nor there.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple, despite the century-long efforts to indoctrinate with the concept of “original sin”, human beings innately know this is not true from their fitra.
Ever heard the expression “Innocent like a new born baby?
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Ken Temple, “There is not much emphasis on internal sins in the Qur’an.
Islam is mostly an external legalistic system.”
So you are trying to convert Muslims for 32 years, but still you don’t know the Muslim believes in the great importance of intention and its importance for the remainder of his deeds?
Don’t you know all deeds are based on intention?
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Ken Temple
You said;
There is only One God. But God is from all eternity a relationship of love – the Father and Son and Spirit in perfect spiritual oneness and unity and fellowship and purity of love.
I say;
God is self sufficient and God is not a human being to need love and affection to exist. It is not mandatory for God to use his attributes like Mercy, grace, forgiveness, love etc. Sometimes God does not show mercy or forgiveness or love.
Christians confuse people and themselves with love, love, love and God is love but they forget sometimes God does not love and that is why God created hell fire to burn what He God does not love.
The Bible said God is One, Only and Alone but not in a relationship and love and affection with anyone.
Proof.
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” Zechariah 14:9
“You alone [bad], Lord, is God.” Isaiah 37:20
“You alone [bad] is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
So, it is not true to say God is just like human beings with Father and child and family in relationship with love and affection.
Ken Temple will say by nature God exists with love and relationship and it is not true Mr. Ken according to the verses above God is Yahweh and HeS is alone, one and only. So, there is no love, relationship with anyone according to the verses above. So according to the Bible God does not have to use His attributes by force i.e. God does not have to get love, affection, forgiveness, mercy before He exists or it is not mandatory for God to love and have relationship to exist. And it is not true God has a Son and another Holy Spirit to share love and relationship from eternity. That is not true. God does not need that-love and relationship-and according to the Bible and the verses above God is ONE, ALONE AND ONLY. So, there is no love, relationship with anyone according the verses above.
Thanks
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Ken Temple
Encore, Repeat, Reminder etc.
You said;
Ken Temple
You said;
I already worship the True God only. He is the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit =
One God in three persons.
There is only One God. But God is from all eternity a relationship of love – the Father and Son and Spirit in perfect spiritual oneness and unity and fellowship and purity of love.
God is love. 1 John 4:8
This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased. Mark 1:11
I say;
-Sometimes God does not love.
-Sometimes God does not show mercy
-Sometimes God does not forgive.
-God(Yahweh) says He is alone i.e. it means no love, relationship and affection with a son like human but He is self-sufficient and it is not mandatory for God to use his attributes by force.
-God(Yahweh) said clearly in the Bible that He is only one and only He i.e. the other hypostasis or persons of the Trinity that are Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit are persons and Jesus is he and the HS is he but Yahweh said He is the only He and therefore Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not God according to Yahweh Himself and not me. Ken and all Christians follow the Bible and stop worshiping Jesus Christ.
Love, Love, Love, Love by Christians. Do you know love???up
Love is affection, compassionate, mercy etc. God is not Love itself but Love is one of God characteristics, names, attributes etc. and God’s attributes like mercy, grace, love, etc. are each not God himself but a word or verb for doing something that human being can also do and cannot be God Himself. Love, mercy etc. and all attributes of God are characteristics and are not substance, persons by themselves, beings by themselves, etc. but the Almighty God is a Being i.e. Divine Being.
It is wrong to say God is love itself but it is correct to say God loves and God is love(in the contest of His names but not the love which is not a substance i.e. love, mercy does not have consciousness and does not have weight and occupy space).
Some times God does not love, so you cannot say God is love itself and God must love and have relationship from eternity but God Himself said He is One, Only and Alone and self sufficient and He does not need anything including relationship to exist.
When the Pharoah of Moses time was chasing Moses and his people and entered into the red sea and at the point of drowning, he took Shahada and asks God for forgiveness. Allah said now? This repentance is not sincere and this un-sincere repentance, I will not forgive. So, God does not forgive un sincere repentance but we know God is all forgiven and it means God does not love evil and if one is not sincere and follow evil, God does not love him following the evil, and so God is not love itself but God is all loving.
People like Moses time Pharoah, Hitler, and other very bad people are stubborn, that is why they did what they did and will never sincerely repent and therefore will be punished by God. God does not love what they did.
Thanks,
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