But it is worse than Shibli Zaman suggests. Paul in his letter to Timothy (2 Timothy 3:15-16) reminds him “how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures” by which he means what Christians call the ‘Old Testament’ – the New Testament was not canonised in the form we know it today until three centuries later in AD 367.
Paul continues:
All Scripture [ie the OT] is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy says all the Old Testament is usable for teaching and training in righteousness (!)
Throughout history Christians have used these OT narratives to justify genocide and murder (eg in the USA against the indigenous population).
Failure to confront the violence in the Bible is typical of fundamentalist Christians. And we must not forget that Jesus commits genocide on an industrial scale in the last NT book!
Categories: Bible
Blogging Theology 
Jesus the God or the God part of Jesus command the massacre but Jesus the man or the man part of Jesus did not command the massacre. All the massacre was commanded before reincarnation and so it does not count as Jesus reincarnated he changed to God-Man.
The God-Man did not command for the massacre and genocide in the Bible.
Thanks
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that is perfectly clear, thank you.
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What Mr. Zaman doesn’t seem to know or to understand is that the Old Testament, though containing the commands of God, is not seen by Christians as God’s final will to mankind. These orders were given to the ancient nation of Israel. We can still debate whether or not God’s commands were just, but that doesn’t change the fact that the commands in the Old Testament can’t simply be taken as compulsory for the Christian believer.
Note, for instance, how Jesus mentioned that divorce (Matthew 5:31-32) and the making of vows (Matthew 5:33-37) were forbidden, abrogating the Mosaic law in these regards. The same goes for abrogating the lex talionis (Matthew 5:38-42) and commanding his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5:43-48).
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Marcus do you think Zaman is wrong when he says:
Christians ‘believe Jesus is God then there is absolutely no way to escape that every command in the Old Testament was made by Jesus himself. That includes all the commands to exterminate entire races in holocaust fashion, killing every man, woman and child, sparing only little girls whom they were commanded by God to keep as concubines.’?
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Macus are you familiar with Jesus teaching..
‘Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practise what they teach. ‘
Matthew 23
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A quick comment, I have to be on my way.
“Macus are you familiar with Jesus teaching..
‘Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practise what they teach. ‘
Matthew 23”
I’ve already mentioned that Jesus didn’t just see the Old Testament as God’s final will, but on numerous occasions abrogated it (see especially Matthew 5). Now Jesus precise view of the law and how it applied to his followers can appear to be quite difficult (and to be honest, I haven’t read much about it), but I think it’s clear that Matthew 23 needs to be read in the full light of Jesus’s mission and his understanding of the purpose of the Mosaic law. Note, for instance, that Jesus says that God’s allowance of divorce in the Mosaic law was made “becuase of your hardness of heart” (Mark 10:5).
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I don’t agree he abrogated the law in Matthew’s gospel. Your interpretation is wrong.
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Macus – I sense you are anxious to run away from answering my question above.
do you think Zaman is wrong when he says:
Christians,
‘believe Jesus is God then there is absolutely no way to escape that every command in the Old Testament was made by Jesus himself. That includes all the commands to exterminate entire races in holocaust fashion, killing every man, woman and child, sparing only little girls whom they were commanded by God to keep as concubines.’?
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Jesus initiated the New Covenant at the Last Supper, which is multiply attested by both the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20) and Paul (1 Corinthians 11:23-25).
But we know what Jesus will is with regard to how his followers deal with those who attack and persecute them, because he makes that crystal clear:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” (Matthew 5:28-44; cf. Luke 6:27-35; Romans 12:14-21)
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Macus – you are obviously very anxious to run away from answering my question above.
do you think Zaman is wrong when he says:
Christians,
‘believe Jesus is God then there is absolutely no way to escape that every command in the Old Testament was made by Jesus himself. That includes all the commands to exterminate entire races in holocaust fashion, killing every man, woman and child, sparing only little girls whom they were commanded by God to keep as concubines.’?
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Marcus
You said;
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” (Matthew 5:28-44; cf. Luke 6:27-35; Romans 12:14-21)
You also said;
Jesus initiated the New Covenant at the Last Supper, which is multiply attested by both the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20) and Paul (1 Corinthians 11:23-25).
I say;
If someone comes to rape your relation and he started attacking her and you can absolutely defend yourself and your relation from the attacker, will you not fight him off? and follow the above man-made command? to let the enemy finishes your relation off and kill her? then you turn the other cheek for him? to finish you as well?
The above covenant seems man-mad to me to make Jesus appear peaceful. This type of peace to let you and your relation to be beaten, raped and finished off to let Jesus appear all loving and peaceful is a sinful covenant to me.
It is a blot to erase what Jesus as God commanded in the Old Testament but it turned out to be a bad covenant itself and Christians themselves like you Mr. Markus cannot sit down without fighting back to protect your relation from attack and let her to be finished for you to turn the other cheek for you to be finished as well. It is much worse than the Old Testament command to commit suicide by not fighting back and let your enemy kill you by turning the other cheek.
Jesus initiated the Old Testament covenant as God himself, and so he is responsible for the old covenant. He must have to be clear and say he abrogated his old covenant but he did not say that.
He said “You have heard that it was said”. Was he not the one who said so? If he was God he could have said “You have heard what I said in the Old Testament, I have abrogated all the violent commands”.
“You have heard that it was said”. Who said? What?
Thanks.
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We can debate theology or hermeneutics till we are black in the teeth, but the hard facts are that Muslims are killing people based on their understanding of the Koran and Muhammad’s sunnah. We all need to face that.
It seems to me that Paul is reading the Old Testament as one reads the Quran, which is problematic given the nature of the tanakh.
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Mark
You said;
We can debate theology or hermeneutics till we are black in the teeth, but the hard facts are that Muslims are killing people based on their understanding of the Koran and Muhammad’s sunnah. We all need to face that.
It seems to me that Paul is reading the Old Testament as one reads the Quran, which is problematic given the nature of the tanakh.
I say;
Christians are killing people based on Biblical passages of “kill everyone including children and animals” by voting for war in Iraq, which Tony Blair admitted a couple of days ago that created isis. Now, the evangelical Christians of the USA are planning another war with Iran, and the presidential of the republican parties are talking about peace but war with Iran and will abrogated the peace deal with Iran and their polls goes high among evangelical Christians.
You said;
Muslims are killing people based on their understanding of the Koran and Muhammad’s sunnah. We all need to face that.
I say;
May be you forgot to mention evangelical Christian Zionists and some(not all Jews) Jews massacring babies in the UN compound in Gaza based on the Biblical passages to exterminate and annihilate the Palestinians to provide the land for the Jewish state.
You forgot to mention the hard facts that Christians are killing people based on their understanding of the Bible and Jesus command of “Bring my enemy and kill him in front of me” to kill everyone including themselves(Christians) i.e. persecuting Catholic Christians in the USA, Mormons, burning cross to hang blacks, burning of black Churches, refusing Jews entry to the USA and let the Jews go back to die in Nazi concentration camps etc. all these were done by Christians until law and order was restored in the USA but still some still shoot people in black Churches, crowded cinema theatre, schools etc.
Under Saddam Hussein with his Christian vice president Tariq Aziz, there was law and order in Iraq and no isis. The Christians voted for war in Iraq like how they are yearning for war with Iran today and unfortunately power vacuum created isis and all the blood shed by isis today goes back to those who voted for war in Iraq and Muslims did not vote for war in Iraq and it was evangelical Christians who did that based on their Biblical belief.
Thanks.
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Mark
You said;
It seems to me that Paul is reading the Old Testament as one reads the Quran, which is problematic given the nature of the tanakh.
I say;
Paul does not have to read the Old Testament as one reads the Quran please. It is there in the Old and New Testament and Jesus command to “slay and kill those who do not believe him” and to “kill babies, animals and take women as concubines”. It is clear like ABC and has nothing to do with Quran or Paul Williams.
Thanks.
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“Macus – you are obviously very anxious to run away from answering my question above.”
I would rather say that it’s quite obvious to me that you don’t have a clue about my inner feelings.
————————————————————————————————————–
“do you think Zaman is wrong when he says:
Christians,
‘believe Jesus is God then there is absolutely no way to escape that every command in the Old Testament was made by Jesus himself. That includes all the commands to exterminate entire races in holocaust fashion, killing every man, woman and child, sparing only little girls whom they were commanded by God to keep as concubines.’?”
I would not say that a Christian HAS to believe that Jesus ordered these people to be killed, since I do not see this a vital part of what the Christian faith is. Likewise, I would not say that a Muslim HAS to believe that Muhammad had sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was nine years old, or said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Messenger, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property form me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah” (Sahih al-Bukhari 25, see here: http://sunnah.com/bukhari/2/18). These issues are important, but they are not vital to what the Christian respectively Islamic faith is.
Like I said, this is an important issue, which unfortunately I’ve not adequately investigated, so I think it’s best for me not to speak without knowledge. I have, however, made for myself a list of some books and articles which might help me to tackle this issue in due time (though currently my studies focus on other subjects).
I see this as the most responsible thing to do. Likewise, it would be quite easy for me to just accuse Muhammad of being a child molester, rapist and/or murderer, and subsequently to conclude that Islam is false. But I want to be fair, and if I were to offer any criticisms of Muhammad’s behaviour, I would listen first to what Muslim scholars have said on these issues and try to deal with their responses.
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Markus
Thanks. When it comes to religion, one or two scholars will not help but reading the scriptures with open mind to determine the truth, logic, rationality and more reading and research and blogs like this one can help tremendously. Scholars alone cannot help but they do are essential.
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Intellect.
How exactly you jump from how a person votes to them being guilty of murder is rather ridiculous and far-fetched (especially given how foreign policy works). But as I understand it, this is a common corollation radical Muslims make to justify why they kill innocent people.
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Mark, your hypocrisy knows no bounds, which is ironic given the topic of this thread. You are not doing much to prove that many Christians suffer from a debilitating case of hypocrisy. LOL.
If someone votes for a criminal, while knowing that he/she is a criminal, that makes them partially culpable. What if a member of the KKK ran for President? Wouldn’t those who vote for this person, while knowing that he is a racist bigot, also not be racist bigots by default? Think about it. Use your brain for once.
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Mark
You said;
How exactly you jump from how a person votes to them being guilty of murder is rather ridiculous and far-fetched (especially given how foreign policy works). But as I understand it, this is a common corollation radical Muslims make to justify why they kill innocent people.
I say;
I did not kill innocent people and by the grace of Allah I will not kill any innocent person. The conservative evangelical Christians will vote for anyone who will do bad to Muslims and courtesy CNN Christian Amanpour reporting Dr. Ben Carson raised over 1 million dollars when he attached ALL, ALL, ALL Muslims for he does not trust any Muslim to become the president of the US.
I think he spent all the donation from the evangelical Christians and want more and he knows if he attack all Muslims he will get more from them, so he compared Muslims to rapid dogs.
These stupid remarks were condemned by peace loving Americans on TV and it is not radical Muslims who condemned such radical Christian utterance to get money from other radical Christians.
Dr. Carson will not win the republican nominee because he is a liar and worships ancient Egyptian gods and the evangelicals want s him to do their dirty job for them in attacking all Muslims and fortunately the good American people are hitting back at him. God bless America.
Thanks.
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correction;
When he attacked all Muslims.
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Dear Intellect,
“I did not kill innocent people and by the grace of Allah I will not kill any innocent person. The conservative evangelical Christians will vote for anyone who will do bad to Muslims and courtesy CNN Christian Amanpour reporting Dr. Ben Carson raised over 1 million dollars when he attached ALL, ALL, ALL Muslims for he does not trust any Muslim to become the president of the US.”
By saying “The conservative evangelical Christians” you’re committing the fallacy of generalisation.
“Dr. Carson will not win the republican nominee because he is a liar and worships ancient Egyptian gods and the evangelicals want s him to do their dirty job for them in attacking all Muslims and fortunately the good American people are hitting back at him. God bless America.”
I’m not an American and have not much interest in the Presidential elections in the USA, but I challenge you to give me any convincing evidence that dr. Carson “worships ancient Egyptian gods”.
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Faiz,
Let me guess: all our western leaders are criminals in your mind?
Since I voted for one of them, do you think it is justifiable for a Muslim to kill me?
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Mark
You said;
Faiz,
Let me guess: all our western leaders are criminals in your mind?
Since I voted for one of them, do you think it is justifiable for a Muslim to kill me?
I say;
NO, NO, NO, NO And God will punish anyone who kills you. Do not put words in any one’s mouth please. It is not good. No body said all Western leaders are criminals please, please. We never said so and will never ever said that. No body said you should be killed because of your voting. It is against our religion. Our religion says if you kill a human being it is as if you killed a whole of humanity.
What I am saying is that, some radicals in the US be it Jews(not all Jews), evangelical Christians, racists, bigots, islamophobes will vote for anyone who attacked all Muslims like Dr. Ben Carson and some of the republican candidates did. It is not radical Muslim from issis saying this but the Good American people who do not want racists, religious supremacists and bigots hating others in their country. Hilary Clinton said the comments from the republican candidates about Muslims is absurd. It is not isis who said that but Hilary Clinton and other good people of America. God bless America.
If I, as a Muslim will vote for anyone who comes out and compared Christians to rapid dog deserved to be criticised for that racist vote. Evangelical Christians has forced all their republican congressmen to promise about the canceling peace with Iran but to replace it with violence. They did vote for Iraq war and it created isis because of vacuum and lack of law and order. Isis is not Islamic but lack of law and order and Muslims did not vote for the war that created isis and Tony Blair admitted that his war created isis.
Thanks.
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Mark said:
“Faiz,
Let me guess: all our western leaders are criminals in your mind?
Since I voted for one of them, do you think it is justifiable for a Muslim to kill me?”
Mark, learn how to read. I said that if it is known that a particular person is a criminal (I gave the example of a racist bigot), then if you vote for that person, then you are also a criminal. If someone supported Hitler or Mussolini, while being fully aware of their crimes, would they not be culpable via the law? Such a person would belong in prison.
I didn’t say “all our western leaders are criminals”. Nice try, but straw men don’t work in a rational discussion. 😉
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