It is a definite problem, but can be explained away in the culture of the time. But I’m sure, okay not so sure, that I read somewhere that Aisha’s father wasn’t happy at the time..
My opinion – this issue of Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) is an argument from the standpoint of presentism
We cannot condemn it (a culture 1500 years ago) with reference to our current culture(s) and understanding. Even the Christians and Jews did not condemn the Prophet (saw) at that time because such was an accepted practice.
‘…..Yet presentism besets us in two different ways: (1) the tendency to interpret the past in presentist terms; and (2) the shift of general historical interest toward the contemporary period and away from the more distant past. Although the first propensity was implicit in Western historical writing from its beginnings, it took a more problematic turn when the notion of “the modern” began to take root in the 17th century. Over time, modernity became the standard of judgment against which most of the past, even the Western past, could be found wanting. The second trend, the shift of interest toward the contemporary period, clearly has a connection to the invention of modernity, but it did not follow as much in lockstep as might be expected….’
‘….Presentism, at its worst, encourages a kind of moral complacency and self-congratulation. Interpreting the past in terms of present concerns usually leads us to find ourselves morally superior; the Greeks had slavery, even David Hume was a racist, and European women endorsed imperial ventures. Our forbears constantly fail to measure up to our present-day standards. This is not to say that any of these findings are irrelevant or that we should endorse an entirely relativist point of view. It is to say that we must question the stance of temporal superiority that is implicit in the Western (and now probably worldwide) historical discipline. In some ways, now that we have become very sensitive about Western interpretations of the non-Western past, this temporal feeling of superiority applies more to the Western past than it does to the non-Western one….’
Its only about 100 odd years ago where this Age of Consent Law was taken seriously in Europe. Interestingly :
‘….However, since the age of consent applied in all circumstances, not just in physical assaults, the law also made it impossible for an underage female to consent to sexual activity. There was one exception: a man’s acts with his wife, to which rape law, and hence the age of consent, did not apply….’
‘….At the end of 19th century, moral reformers drew the age of consent into campaigns against prostitution. Revelations of child prostitution were central to those campaigns, a situation that resulted, reformers argued, from men taking advantage of the innocence of girls just over the age of consent. W. T. Stead’s series of articles entitled, “The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon,” published in the Pall Mall Gazette in 1885, was the most sensational and influential of these exposés….’
Regardless of her age at the time of the marriage, They were really happy together, she was really happy with the Prophet. In fact, even when the Prophet (p) gave her a choice to leave him and giving her that choice was not regarded as a divorce she still decided to stay with him
Al-Bukhari narrated from ‘A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, the wife of the Prophet (upon whom be peace and blessings of Allah) that the Messenger of Allah came to her when Allah commanded him to give his wives the choice. She said, “The Messenger of Allah (upon whom be peace and blessings of Allah) started with me, and said, ‘I am going to tell you about something and you do not have to hasten to respond until you consult your parents.’ He knew that my parents would never tell me to leave him. Then he said: ‘O Prophet! Say to your wives…’ and he recited the two Ayat [verses]. I said to him, ‘Concerning what do I need to consult my parents? I choose Allah and His Messenger and the Home of the Hereafter.'” Fn.1: Fath al-Bari 8:379. He also narrated it without a chain of narrators, and added, “Shesaid, then all the wives of the Prophet (upon whom be peace and blessings of Allah) did the same as I.” Fn.2: Fath al-Bari 8:380.
Please see this interesting article pertaining Prophet’s marriage to Aisha written by None- Muslims :
What the records are clear on is that Muhammad and Aisha had a loving and egalitarian relationship To paint Aisha as a victim is completely at odds with her persona. She was certainly no wallflower. During a controversial battle in Muslim history, she emerged riding a camel to lead the troops. She was known for her assertive temperament and mischievous sense of humour – with Muhammad sometimes bearing the brunt of the jokes. During his lifetime, he established her authority by telling Muslims to consult her in his absence; after his death, she went to be become one of the most prolific and distinguished scholars of her time.
A stateswoman, scholar, mufti, and judge, Aisha combined spirituality, activism and knowledge and remains a role model for many Muslim women today. The gulf between her true legacy and her depiction in Islamophobic materials is not merely historically inaccurate, it is an insult to the memory of a pioneering http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth
What really matters is, actually Were they happy in Marriage? if they were, everything else is insignificant at least it is to me. As long as the couple is happy in marriage nothing else matter, why? it is their life they call the shots, none of our business and they were happy together in spite of the age gap. This thing hasn’t changed for instance Zayd and Zainab wasn’t happy with each other, although the age gap wasn’t big between them, and they split up even after the Prophet (p) himself intervene and requested them to work it out. If Aisha wasn’t happy in Marriage with the Prophet (p), they would have also split up, but they didn’t. Moreover, she decided to stay with the Prophet even when Prophet gave her a choice to leave him.
Instead of judging their marriage merely based on the age look at other beautiful aspects of their marriage, why ignore or disregard those aspects and insist on the age? do they not count? Please, if you want to judge their marriage or anyone for that matter take all aspects into consideration not just one and ignore the rest. I think that there’s more to this story than meets the eye.
Perhaps you should read the dialogue between myself and some of the other commentors on this blog (“A Christian view of Prophet Muhammad) as I raised my own issues with this subject at that time.
Suffice to say “explaining away” and discussing the history and cultural context as well as how that might be interpreted in different times, are not in my opinion the same thing. One is simplistic and dismissive while the other is involving and challenging.
I’m still frankly amazed as a Christian you would say that St Joseph and St Marys’ relationship was wrong considering St Joseph was the man who raised Jesus to be the great man and Prophet he would become alongside Mary. Why would God allow such an “abusive” relationship to be the one to not only shape the character of Jesus Christ but for St Joseph to be guided (rather openly) by God for many years as the Gospel of St Matthew describes?
I don’t think your position makes sense in light of your professed beliefs and many Christians would find such a position to be incredulous.
and I doubt you or anyone here would want to stir the wrath of St Shamoun as his “good heart” may swallow us all up in his “Forum of Divine Mercy” 😉
and I believe that certain blog with which he spews….sorry i meant “proclaims with loving kindness” this loving heart with which he loves to regurgitate…..errr i mean to “Comment on the post of Charity” will be selling this truly precious junk…..no no gem i meant gem for a truly small fortune…..wait wait i meant price of one soul and intelligence….i meant money
he’s an inspirations to tens of people and it was an horror….i mean honor to have been blessed with his electronic presence. :p
To be fair though Nabeel get out there and meet new fundies, its about time in my opinion. I mean St Shamoun has met a new one called Jonathan McLatchie and hes already been blacklisted…i mean blessed with a stirling reputation and sharp intellect that I can have nightmares….i mean dreams of achieving.
Speaking of merchandising do you think that certain blog should sell Dave and Sam plushies? They would be soooooo adorable.
I’m amazed, Patrice, that you seem unaware of the thousands of Christian denominations that all believe different things! Of course Joseph was guilty of child abuse if Mary was 12 as has been said above. Child abuse is still child abuse if it occurred 2000 years ago, 1600 years ago, or today. What I think that it shows is human resilience in the face of adversity. Maybe it was the culture at the time and people expected it to happen and so they were more ready and able to deal with it. It’s still abuse though!
this claim ignores the hugely diverse cultural contexts and definitions of childhood and adulthood – and assumes that current western social norms are universal for all people and for all history. That is highly questionable.
You also ignore that there are examples even in the West of different ages of consent such as in the United States where 13 is considered an appropriate age for marriage. Are they wrong as well?
My question is what is your basis for deciding on one as opposed to all these others? It is wrong to assume your position is true before actually demonstrating why it is true. This is called begging the question.
“Maybe it was the culture at the time and people expected it to happen and so they were more ready and able to deal with it. It’s still abuse though!”
As a Christian I assume you believe Jesus is God Incarnate yes? If so why would he be so ready to accept the cultural norm rather than say something about it? Perhaps the communicator between him and the Father was on the fritz and he missed the memo.
There’s plenty of Christians who don’t believe that “Jesus is God Incarnate”! He was perfectly “ready to accept the cultural norm” when he didn’t initially heal the Canaanite woman’s daughter.
The type of Christianity I currently try to follow is one which you don’t have to have all the ‘right’ thoughts but you do have to do the ‘right’ things – like helping in the Foodbank, helping the homeless, visiting the sick etc.
“…you don’t have to have all the ‘right’ thoughts but you do have to do the ‘right’ things”
With this in mind i feel the need to reiterate my initial question:
“My question is what is your basis for deciding on one as opposed to all these others? It is wrong to assume your position is true before actually demonstrating why it is true. This is called begging the question.”
and considering your response my second question would be why you feel one is more important than the other? Do not beliefs breed action?
I’m not quite sure I understand your question Patrice 😦 So here’s one for you: Do you think it’s okay for a man in his fifties to have sex with a 9 year old girl? (Or an 8 year old according to the Gregorian calendar)
The book of James says that you show your faith by your actions and even the demons have a correct theology!
I think the question which relates to Prophet Muhammads marriage to Aisha has already been answered and the criticism of your question still stands as yet unanswered:
“this claim ignores the hugely diverse cultural contexts and definitions of childhood and adulthood – and assumes that current western social norms are universal for all people and for all history. That is highly questionable.”
As far as I can see, the age of consent in America is 18. Some States allow a younger age only with parental consent. Needing parental consent implies they’re not adult enough to make the decision!
I thought you meant on one of the comments! It does seem obvious to me that an old man having sex with a 8/9 year old girl is obviously wrong. That it was the culture of the time is evident but it’s still universally wrong for all time despite erroneous cultural norms.
Origen, you didn’t answer my question. Comparing God’s failure to stop Joseph from committing what you call “child abuse” to God’s allowance of war and human misery is a fallacy. For sure, God has allowed bad things to happen from the beginning of time. He could have intervened but He has chosen to instead give us certain guidelines whereby we can improve our own conditions. The Quran says that God does not change a people until they change themselves. This is the context of horrible events like the Syrian civil war.
In contrast, God not only failed to stop Joseph from “abusing” the mother of His alleged “son”, He didn’t even tell him that it was wrong! According to the Gospels, God sent angels to both Joseph and Mary to tell them the good news of Jesus’ birth. This would have been the perfect time to tell Joseph that his marriage to Mary was wrong and was akin to “child abuse”. And yet, the Gospels say nothing about this. Instead, God took the opportunity to simply tell Joseph of Jesus’ birth and also to warn him of Herod’s plots. It is not the same thing as the bombing in Syria.
You said;
As far as I can see, the age of consent in America is 18. Some States allow a younger age only with parental consent. Needing parental consent implies they’re not adult enough to make the decision!
I say;
Before America was created there was no age limit in the Bible. From the time of Adam until the 1900’s when the age limit was decided by those politicians and statesmen like Bill Clinton, Eliot Spitzer, Pastor Eddie Lee Long, Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Pastor Jerry Falwell etc. who were caught molesting the “children”. The Christian Church Fathers’ child molesters that prompted Pope Benedict to apologise for the Church Fathers actions against the “children” who were not married but have sex with the older men and “children of their age”
If they are children, why allow them to have sex? and the law allows for the children to have sex. It is sin for any law to allow children to have sex.
God’s law and the Bible said no one should have sex until marriage and that is the moral law from God. If you think you can feel sex and enjoy it, then you are not a child anymore. It is better to marry and have the sex, than be having the sex among “children” to open the gates of vices such as teenage pregnancy, school dropout, child porn, Politicians who legislate, implement and execute the law will travel to Pueto Rico, Cuba, Africa etc. to sought for the “children” to have sex with them. Mark Sanford, a US politician will tell you that he does not follow the law. John Edwards and to name just a few.
God said no sex before marriage and the is God’s moral law. Those who have teenage pregnancy and give birth are not children according to the Bible and tha is why there is no age limit in the Bible. From the time of Abraham, till the 1900’s no any age limit was set by God or anyone but human instinct helps us to determine who is right to marry and have sex but no age limit.
The age limit does not work, because the Western politicians, Christians pastors and Church Fathers do have sex and molest the “children”.
It is better to marry someone who is fit to marry than have sex with the person. Correction. Our prophet did not have sex with Aisha(RA) but married her as his wife and he married older wives, widows and rival tribal ladies too.
Age difference? It is non of any one God damned business if some one who is adult and ready to marry and married some one 60 years his senior. That is the persons choice as far as it is not force. It is still continue today when Anna Nichole Smith, Celine Dion etc. marry their older men. George Galloway is about 33 years older than his wife and they love each other and had a nice baby some months back. George daughter is far older than his new wife. They are enjoying themselves and the Bible is not against it because Abraham did that too.
Is better to marry someone you love and have kids than travel to Pueto Rico to have sex with “teenagers” or to molest “teenagers” by pastors and Church Fathers.
You said;
The type of Christianity I currently try to follow is one which you don’t have to have all the ‘right’ thoughts but you do have to do the ‘right’ things – like helping in the Foodbank, helping the homeless, visiting the sick etc.
I say;
It is not only Christians who do the above please. We all do the above and are not Christians. Idol worshipers and voodoo priests in Haiti are doing the above. Doing the above does not make you a Christian. You have to tell us the type of Christian you are but we know all Christians believe in God in one way or the other.
God allowed Joseph to do the wrong thing by “molesting” a “child Mary”. Blame your God for not putting the age limit earlier until the 1900’s by men who are caught molesting children. Abraham, according to the Bible molested his slave and Jesus said all slave must serve their master
Ephesians 6:5
Berean Study Bible
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear and sincerity of heart, just as you would show to Christ.
Law enforcement agencies in the US would have arrested both Abraham and Jesus Christ for child molestation and slavery if they were to do their actions today.
Charity begins at home blame Christ, and blame your God before blaming others. It is hypocrite not blame your child and blame someone’s child for an offense your child committed.
Blogging Theology 
It is a definite problem, but can be explained away in the culture of the time. But I’m sure, okay not so sure, that I read somewhere that Aisha’s father wasn’t happy at the time..
LikeLike
My opinion – this issue of Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) is an argument from the standpoint of presentism
We cannot condemn it (a culture 1500 years ago) with reference to our current culture(s) and understanding. Even the Christians and Jews did not condemn the Prophet (saw) at that time because such was an accepted practice.
The following is from the American Historical Association
‘…..Yet presentism besets us in two different ways: (1) the tendency to interpret the past in presentist terms; and (2) the shift of general historical interest toward the contemporary period and away from the more distant past. Although the first propensity was implicit in Western historical writing from its beginnings, it took a more problematic turn when the notion of “the modern” began to take root in the 17th century. Over time, modernity became the standard of judgment against which most of the past, even the Western past, could be found wanting. The second trend, the shift of interest toward the contemporary period, clearly has a connection to the invention of modernity, but it did not follow as much in lockstep as might be expected….’
‘….Presentism, at its worst, encourages a kind of moral complacency and self-congratulation. Interpreting the past in terms of present concerns usually leads us to find ourselves morally superior; the Greeks had slavery, even David Hume was a racist, and European women endorsed imperial ventures. Our forbears constantly fail to measure up to our present-day standards. This is not to say that any of these findings are irrelevant or that we should endorse an entirely relativist point of view. It is to say that we must question the stance of temporal superiority that is implicit in the Western (and now probably worldwide) historical discipline. In some ways, now that we have become very sensitive about Western interpretations of the non-Western past, this temporal feeling of superiority applies more to the Western past than it does to the non-Western one….’
Its only about 100 odd years ago where this Age of Consent Law was taken seriously in Europe. Interestingly :
‘….However, since the age of consent applied in all circumstances, not just in physical assaults, the law also made it impossible for an underage female to consent to sexual activity. There was one exception: a man’s acts with his wife, to which rape law, and hence the age of consent, did not apply….’
‘….At the end of 19th century, moral reformers drew the age of consent into campaigns against prostitution. Revelations of child prostitution were central to those campaigns, a situation that resulted, reformers argued, from men taking advantage of the innocence of girls just over the age of consent. W. T. Stead’s series of articles entitled, “The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon,” published in the Pall Mall Gazette in 1885, was the most sensational and influential of these exposés….’
LikeLiked by 2 people
Origen as a Christian do you know how old Mary was thought to be when she married Joseph?
LikeLike
There is vast amount of evidence from many other hadiths that the age of Aisha was much older.
Analysis of the Qur’an as done by Joseph Islam also gives evidence that her age was older.
Please see this very brief article.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ayesha%20age%20FM3.htm
LikeLike
However Professor Jonathan Brown who is a expert specialist in hadiths states that Bukhari says she was 9 years old. That’s good enough for me.
Joseph Islam is he a scholar?
LikeLike
Regardless of her age at the time of the marriage, They were really happy together, she was really happy with the Prophet. In fact, even when the Prophet (p) gave her a choice to leave him and giving her that choice was not regarded as a divorce she still decided to stay with him
Al-Bukhari narrated from ‘A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, the wife of the Prophet (upon whom be peace and blessings of Allah) that the Messenger of Allah came to her when Allah commanded him to give his wives the choice. She said, “The Messenger of Allah (upon whom be peace and blessings of Allah) started with me, and said, ‘I am going to tell you about something and you do not have to hasten to respond until you consult your parents.’ He knew that my parents would never tell me to leave him. Then he said: ‘O Prophet! Say to your wives…’ and he recited the two Ayat [verses]. I said to him, ‘Concerning what do I need to consult my parents? I choose Allah and His Messenger and the Home of the Hereafter.'” Fn.1: Fath al-Bari 8:379. He also narrated it without a chain of narrators, and added, “Shesaid, then all the wives of the Prophet (upon whom be peace and blessings of Allah) did the same as I.” Fn.2: Fath al-Bari 8:380.
Please see this interesting article pertaining Prophet’s marriage to Aisha written by None- Muslims :
What the records are clear on is that Muhammad and Aisha had a loving and egalitarian relationship To paint Aisha as a victim is completely at odds with her persona. She was certainly no wallflower. During a controversial battle in Muslim history, she emerged riding a camel to lead the troops. She was known for her assertive temperament and mischievous sense of humour – with Muhammad sometimes bearing the brunt of the jokes. During his lifetime, he established her authority by telling Muslims to consult her in his absence; after his death, she went to be become one of the most prolific and distinguished scholars of her time.
A stateswoman, scholar, mufti, and judge, Aisha combined spirituality, activism and knowledge and remains a role model for many Muslim women today. The gulf between her true legacy and her depiction in Islamophobic materials is not merely historically inaccurate, it is an insult to the memory of a pioneering http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth
LikeLiked by 1 person
My bad, Apologies, this article is not written by none-Muslims.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Origen, you keep saying things that you can’t support. Either bring the evidence or don’t say anything.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Excellent points by no couple before nikah.
LikeLike
What really matters is, actually Were they happy in Marriage? if they were, everything else is insignificant at least it is to me. As long as the couple is happy in marriage nothing else matter, why? it is their life they call the shots, none of our business and they were happy together in spite of the age gap. This thing hasn’t changed for instance Zayd and Zainab wasn’t happy with each other, although the age gap wasn’t big between them, and they split up even after the Prophet (p) himself intervene and requested them to work it out. If Aisha wasn’t happy in Marriage with the Prophet (p), they would have also split up, but they didn’t. Moreover, she decided to stay with the Prophet even when Prophet gave her a choice to leave him.
Instead of judging their marriage merely based on the age look at other beautiful aspects of their marriage, why ignore or disregard those aspects and insist on the age? do they not count? Please, if you want to judge their marriage or anyone for that matter take all aspects into consideration not just one and ignore the rest. I think that there’s more to this story than meets the eye.
Thanks Faiz. 🙂
LikeLike
Origen
Perhaps you should read the dialogue between myself and some of the other commentors on this blog (“A Christian view of Prophet Muhammad) as I raised my own issues with this subject at that time.
Suffice to say “explaining away” and discussing the history and cultural context as well as how that might be interpreted in different times, are not in my opinion the same thing. One is simplistic and dismissive while the other is involving and challenging.
I’m still frankly amazed as a Christian you would say that St Joseph and St Marys’ relationship was wrong considering St Joseph was the man who raised Jesus to be the great man and Prophet he would become alongside Mary. Why would God allow such an “abusive” relationship to be the one to not only shape the character of Jesus Christ but for St Joseph to be guided (rather openly) by God for many years as the Gospel of St Matthew describes?
I don’t think your position makes sense in light of your professed beliefs and many Christians would find such a position to be incredulous.
and I doubt you or anyone here would want to stir the wrath of St Shamoun as his “good heart” may swallow us all up in his “Forum of Divine Mercy” 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
Patrice don’t knock St Shamoun – I have it on excellent authority he has a “loving heart” for Muslims 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
and I believe that certain blog with which he spews….sorry i meant “proclaims with loving kindness” this loving heart with which he loves to regurgitate…..errr i mean to “Comment on the post of Charity” will be selling this truly precious junk…..no no gem i meant gem for a truly small fortune…..wait wait i meant price of one soul and intelligence….i meant money
PRAISE BE!!!
YEEEEHAWWWWW
LikeLiked by 2 people
better better…
LikeLike
he’s an inspirations to tens of people and it was an horror….i mean honor to have been blessed with his electronic presence. :p
To be fair though Nabeel get out there and meet new fundies, its about time in my opinion. I mean St Shamoun has met a new one called Jonathan McLatchie and hes already been blacklisted…i mean blessed with a stirling reputation and sharp intellect that I can have nightmares….i mean dreams of achieving.
Speaking of merchandising do you think that certain blog should sell Dave and Sam plushies? They would be soooooo adorable.
LikeLiked by 2 people
perfect, not a hint of sarcasm.
LikeLike
phew thank goodness you didn’t notice i was worried there for a second 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’m amazed, Patrice, that you seem unaware of the thousands of Christian denominations that all believe different things! Of course Joseph was guilty of child abuse if Mary was 12 as has been said above. Child abuse is still child abuse if it occurred 2000 years ago, 1600 years ago, or today. What I think that it shows is human resilience in the face of adversity. Maybe it was the culture at the time and people expected it to happen and so they were more ready and able to deal with it. It’s still abuse though!
LikeLike
Origen,
Since you appear to be a Christian, then the obvious question is why didn’t God stop Mary’s “abuse” at the hands of Joseph?
LikeLiked by 1 person
James,
‘Child abuse is still child abuse’,
this claim ignores the hugely diverse cultural contexts and definitions of childhood and adulthood – and assumes that current western social norms are universal for all people and for all history. That is highly questionable.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Origen
You also ignore that there are examples even in the West of different ages of consent such as in the United States where 13 is considered an appropriate age for marriage. Are they wrong as well?
My question is what is your basis for deciding on one as opposed to all these others? It is wrong to assume your position is true before actually demonstrating why it is true. This is called begging the question.
LikeLike
“Maybe it was the culture at the time and people expected it to happen and so they were more ready and able to deal with it. It’s still abuse though!”
As a Christian I assume you believe Jesus is God Incarnate yes? If so why would he be so ready to accept the cultural norm rather than say something about it? Perhaps the communicator between him and the Father was on the fritz and he missed the memo.
LikeLike
There’s plenty of Christians who don’t believe that “Jesus is God Incarnate”! He was perfectly “ready to accept the cultural norm” when he didn’t initially heal the Canaanite woman’s daughter.
The type of Christianity I currently try to follow is one which you don’t have to have all the ‘right’ thoughts but you do have to do the ‘right’ things – like helping in the Foodbank, helping the homeless, visiting the sick etc.
LikeLike
“…you don’t have to have all the ‘right’ thoughts but you do have to do the ‘right’ things”
With this in mind i feel the need to reiterate my initial question:
“My question is what is your basis for deciding on one as opposed to all these others? It is wrong to assume your position is true before actually demonstrating why it is true. This is called begging the question.”
and considering your response my second question would be why you feel one is more important than the other? Do not beliefs breed action?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Faiz, Why doesn’t God stop the bombing in Syria?
LikeLike
I’m not quite sure I understand your question Patrice 😦 So here’s one for you: Do you think it’s okay for a man in his fifties to have sex with a 9 year old girl? (Or an 8 year old according to the Gregorian calendar)
The book of James says that you show your faith by your actions and even the demons have a correct theology!
LikeLike
I think the question which relates to Prophet Muhammads marriage to Aisha has already been answered and the criticism of your question still stands as yet unanswered:
“this claim ignores the hugely diverse cultural contexts and definitions of childhood and adulthood – and assumes that current western social norms are universal for all people and for all history. That is highly questionable.”
LikeLike
As far as I can see, the age of consent in America is 18. Some States allow a younger age only with parental consent. Needing parental consent implies they’re not adult enough to make the decision!
LikeLike
Can you show me where it’s been answered? Sorry if I’m being dumb!
LikeLike
refer to the top of the post where Jonathan Brown refers to a hadith that states that permission was asked of the parent before marriage.
LikeLike
I thought you meant on one of the comments! It does seem obvious to me that an old man having sex with a 8/9 year old girl is obviously wrong. That it was the culture of the time is evident but it’s still universally wrong for all time despite erroneous cultural norms.
LikeLike
Origen, you didn’t answer my question. Comparing God’s failure to stop Joseph from committing what you call “child abuse” to God’s allowance of war and human misery is a fallacy. For sure, God has allowed bad things to happen from the beginning of time. He could have intervened but He has chosen to instead give us certain guidelines whereby we can improve our own conditions. The Quran says that God does not change a people until they change themselves. This is the context of horrible events like the Syrian civil war.
In contrast, God not only failed to stop Joseph from “abusing” the mother of His alleged “son”, He didn’t even tell him that it was wrong! According to the Gospels, God sent angels to both Joseph and Mary to tell them the good news of Jesus’ birth. This would have been the perfect time to tell Joseph that his marriage to Mary was wrong and was akin to “child abuse”. And yet, the Gospels say nothing about this. Instead, God took the opportunity to simply tell Joseph of Jesus’ birth and also to warn him of Herod’s plots. It is not the same thing as the bombing in Syria.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Origen
You said;
As far as I can see, the age of consent in America is 18. Some States allow a younger age only with parental consent. Needing parental consent implies they’re not adult enough to make the decision!
I say;
Before America was created there was no age limit in the Bible. From the time of Adam until the 1900’s when the age limit was decided by those politicians and statesmen like Bill Clinton, Eliot Spitzer, Pastor Eddie Lee Long, Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Pastor Jerry Falwell etc. who were caught molesting the “children”. The Christian Church Fathers’ child molesters that prompted Pope Benedict to apologise for the Church Fathers actions against the “children” who were not married but have sex with the older men and “children of their age”
If they are children, why allow them to have sex? and the law allows for the children to have sex. It is sin for any law to allow children to have sex.
God’s law and the Bible said no one should have sex until marriage and that is the moral law from God. If you think you can feel sex and enjoy it, then you are not a child anymore. It is better to marry and have the sex, than be having the sex among “children” to open the gates of vices such as teenage pregnancy, school dropout, child porn, Politicians who legislate, implement and execute the law will travel to Pueto Rico, Cuba, Africa etc. to sought for the “children” to have sex with them. Mark Sanford, a US politician will tell you that he does not follow the law. John Edwards and to name just a few.
God said no sex before marriage and the is God’s moral law. Those who have teenage pregnancy and give birth are not children according to the Bible and tha is why there is no age limit in the Bible. From the time of Abraham, till the 1900’s no any age limit was set by God or anyone but human instinct helps us to determine who is right to marry and have sex but no age limit.
The age limit does not work, because the Western politicians, Christians pastors and Church Fathers do have sex and molest the “children”.
It is better to marry someone who is fit to marry than have sex with the person. Correction. Our prophet did not have sex with Aisha(RA) but married her as his wife and he married older wives, widows and rival tribal ladies too.
Age difference? It is non of any one God damned business if some one who is adult and ready to marry and married some one 60 years his senior. That is the persons choice as far as it is not force. It is still continue today when Anna Nichole Smith, Celine Dion etc. marry their older men. George Galloway is about 33 years older than his wife and they love each other and had a nice baby some months back. George daughter is far older than his new wife. They are enjoying themselves and the Bible is not against it because Abraham did that too.
Is better to marry someone you love and have kids than travel to Pueto Rico to have sex with “teenagers” or to molest “teenagers” by pastors and Church Fathers.
Thanks.
LikeLike
Origen
You said;
The type of Christianity I currently try to follow is one which you don’t have to have all the ‘right’ thoughts but you do have to do the ‘right’ things – like helping in the Foodbank, helping the homeless, visiting the sick etc.
I say;
It is not only Christians who do the above please. We all do the above and are not Christians. Idol worshipers and voodoo priests in Haiti are doing the above. Doing the above does not make you a Christian. You have to tell us the type of Christian you are but we know all Christians believe in God in one way or the other.
God allowed Joseph to do the wrong thing by “molesting” a “child Mary”. Blame your God for not putting the age limit earlier until the 1900’s by men who are caught molesting children. Abraham, according to the Bible molested his slave and Jesus said all slave must serve their master
Ephesians 6:5
Berean Study Bible
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear and sincerity of heart, just as you would show to Christ.
Law enforcement agencies in the US would have arrested both Abraham and Jesus Christ for child molestation and slavery if they were to do their actions today.
Charity begins at home blame Christ, and blame your God before blaming others. It is hypocrite not blame your child and blame someone’s child for an offense your child committed.
Thanks
LikeLike