Yasir Qadhi writes:
Some people complained that yesterday’s post was insensitive to what had happened in Belgium, and that I shouldn’t have brought up other carnages caused by ISIS.
The purpose of the post yesterday was simple. When there is only selective outrage and coverage – when only Western losses and lives are displayed and mourned, while Muslim losses and lives are ignored – what happens is that over time aperception is developed: radical jihadists only target Western lands, and Muslims are, if not complicit, at least immune to radical terrorism.
The fact of the matter is that takfiri militant blood-thirsty radical terrorists like ISIS have killed far more Muslims (by a factor of a few thousand at least), and have harmed more Muslims (by a factor of a few million – take into account the refugees), and have smeared the beautiful religion of Islam, far more than they have killed or harmed non-Muslims. (See the attached chart for one simple breakdown).
We, the Muslims of the world, suffer more at the hands of ISIS than anyone. (And just wait for the jihadi supporters to start threatening me in the comments below to see ‘Exhibit A’ of what I refer to).
So, when people like Cruz and Trump (and European Far Right parties) start using Brussels to smear all Muslims and to issue a crackdown on more immigrants, the *only* reason they can get away with it is because still, to this day, most Westerners believe ISIS doesn’t harm Islam or Muslims. If people only saw the reality, if they only knew how much we Muslims despise these groups for all the harm that they do to the world and especially to us, slimy politicians wouldn’t be able to use such attacks to further their agendas.
Hence my post yesterday. All lives matter, not just because we are all human, but because when everyone realizes that ISIS harms *ALL* of us, we can stop this neo-fascist lunacy of suggesting that Muslims be monitored and registered under an updated version of the Nazi Nuremberg Laws.
Categories: Life in the West, News, Terrorism
Blogging Theology 
The “so-called ‘Islamic State'” is killing those it considers apostates – which all four schools of sharia agree is an appropriate punishment for apostasy.
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ISIS is a brutal and extremist group, who do not follow the Shariah. The Muslims it executes as such as Sufis and shias are not apostates. Don’t believe their propaganda.
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No they are killing apostates, homosexuals, rapists and adulterous and anyone who fights against the Kaliph
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So you deny they kill Sufis and Shias? The media say they are as apostates.
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But all four schools of sharia do, in fact, agree that death is an appropriate punishment for apostasy, so Isis is not actually “extremist” on that score by the standards of sharia. Whether or not the groups you mention are apostates or not seems to be a matter of opinion – they certainly have been accused of apostasy in the past several times over.
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I don’t deny they kil sufi and shia apostates
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Then what they are doing is evil wicked and contrary to Islam. Sufis and Shia are not apostates from Islam, they are Muslims.
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Says who? You? So your ok with Shia’s cursing Aisha the mother of believers? You ok with Shia’s cursing Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman? Your ok with Shia’s cursing other wives of Mohamed? Your ok with SHia’s thinking that the world was created for Ali, and that Mohamed came because of Ali. I could go on but this is what a lot of Shia’s sects believe. So that’s not apostasy?
But who are you to decide if they are apostates or not.? Are you a scholar?
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Of course I’m not a scholar. But neither are you dear boy. There is a wide spectrum of Shia beliefs. mainstream Shias do not abuse the sahaba. It is a crime to attack them. ISIS are not Muslins. The prophet warned us about them,
ISIS murder Sufis whose only crime is to worship God,
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So you’re a Takferi Muslim declaring ISIS as Not Muslims but the “main stream” shia’s who do curse the Sahaba in private for fear of retribution are still Muslim?
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The whole ulema have decreed ISIS to be non-Muslims. I am merely following their view. If all Shia curse the shahbab in private how do you they do it?
Are you a Muslim?
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“Then what they are doing is evil wicked and contrary to Islam. Sufis and Shia are not apostates from Islam, they are Muslims.”
Don’t know if that was directed at me, but it is incorrect to say that killing apostates is considered evil and wicked in Islam – all the sharia schools prescribe it as a just punishment. Plus on what authority do you claim that shia and sufi are not apostates when others say that they are?
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In the authority of Sunni Muslim scholars
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Hippy Flower Rainbow,
The ISIS fanatics are takfiris. They declare anyone who does not support them of being “apostates”. That includes Sunnis, Shias and Sufis. When they kill innocent people, they are in fact the apostates themselves, and it would be the duty of the Caliph (if one existed; the criminal Al-Baghdadi is not a “Caliph”) to fight them.
Some Shias may curse some of the Sahaba, but many don’t. They are still Muslims, and killing Muslims is in itself an act off disbelief. Groups like ISIS do not have the authority to declare people are apostates and then kill them. Moreover, the scholars of Islam have traditionally interpreted the command to kill apostates as applying only in the case when the apostate opposes the Muslim state. Personal belief, as long it does not oppose the Islamic nature of the state, is not punishable by death.
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John,
You need to do more research. For starters, you should see the following:
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/03/02/dr-jonathan-brown-discusses-apostasy-law-in-islam/
https://bloggingtheology.net/2015/09/19/dr-jonathan-ac-brown-penalty-for-apostasy-in-islamic-tradition-and-law/
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The whole Ulma? Was every Muslim poled? When was that election? BTW ISIS is part of the Ulma and they don’t consider themselves to be apostates. Oh one more thing that document the one where the “Scholars Singed” the open letter to the Caiiph. Read POINT NUMBER 4, it refutes the whole entire document lol.
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Yes, ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. Contrary to popular misconceptions, the theme of religious freedom is found in abundance in the Qurʾān. The Holy Book thus explains that, (Translations mostly from Abdel-Haleem, same for footnotes)
1. Differences in people’s beliefs are bound to happen
Verses that point out that the difference between people in matters of belief is a divine will from his Will, and hence it is something that happened and will continue to happen until the Day of Judgement.
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We favoured some of these messengers above others. God spoke to some; others He raised in rank; We gave Jesus, son of Mary, Our clear signs and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If God had so willed, their successors would not have fought each other after they had been brought clear signs. But they disagreed: some believed and some disbelieved. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other, but God does what He will.
Qurʾān — 2:253
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We sent to you [Muḥammad] the Scripture with the truth, confirming the Scriptures that came before it, and with final authority over them: so judge between them according to what God has sent down. Do not follow their whims, which deviate from the truth that has come to you. We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.
Qurʾān — 5:48
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If you find rejection by the disbelievers so hard to bear, then seek a tunnel into the ground or a ladder into the sky, if you can, and bring them a sign: God could bring them all to guidance if it were His will, so do not join the ignorant.
Qurʾān — 6:35
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Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord, there is no God but Him. Turn away from those who join other gods with Him.
If it had been God’s will, they would not have done so, but We have not made you their guardian, nor are you their keeper.
Qurʾān — 6:106–107
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Say, ‘The conclusive argument belongs to God alone. Had He so willed He would
have guided you all.’
Qurʾān — 6:149
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All people were originally one single community, but later they differed. If it had not been for a wordᵃ from your Lord, the preordained judgement would already have been passed between them regarding their differences.
Qurʾān — 10:19
ᵃ : Postponing judgement.
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And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed –– all of them entirely. Then, [O Muḥammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
Qurʾān — 10:99
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If your Lord had pleased, He would have made all people a single community, but they continue to have their differences –– except those on whom your Lord has mercy –– for He created them to be this way, and the word of your Lord is final: ‘I shall definitely fill Hell with both jinn and men.’
Qurʾān — 11:118–119
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If there were ever to be a Qurʾān with which mountains could be moved, the earth shattered, or the dead made to speak [it would have been this one],ᵃ but everything is truly in God’s hands. Do the believers not realize that if God had so willed, He could have guided all mankind? As for the disbelievers, because of their misdeeds, disaster will not cease to afflict them or fall close to their homes until God’s promise is fulfilled: God never fails to keep His promise.
Qurʾān — 13:31
ᵃ : Or ‘[they still would not believe]’.
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God points out the right path, for some paths lead the wrong way: if He wished, He could guide you all.
Qurʾān — 16:9
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If God so willed, He would have made you all one people, but He leaves to stray whoever He will and guides whoever He will. You will be questioned about your deeds.
Qurʾān — 16:93
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We have appointed acts of devotion for every community to observe, so do not let them argue with you [Prophet] about this matter. Call them to your Lord––you are on the right path––and if they argue with you, say, ‘God is well aware of what you are doing.’
Qurʾān — 22:67–68
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‘If it had been Our will, We could certainly have given every soul
its true guidance, but My words have come true. “I shall be sure to fill Hell with jinn and men together.”
Qurʾān — 32:13
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If God had so pleased, He could have made them a single community, but He admits to His mercy whoever He will; the evildoers will have no one to protect or help them.
Qurʾān — 42:8
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2. Judgement between people in their differences in belief is in the Day of Resurrection and not in this earthly world
Verses that show that the decision and final judgement between people in their differences in belief isn’t in this abode but it is in the abode of the Hereafter.
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The Jews say, ‘The Christians have no ground whatsoever to stand on,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Jews have no ground whatsoever to stand on,’ though they both read the Scripture, and those who have no knowledge say the same; God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning their differences.
Qurʾān — 2:113
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God said, ‘Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me: I will purify you of the disbelievers. To the Day of Resurrection I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieved. Then you will all return to Me and I will judge between you regarding your differences.
Qurʾān — 3:55
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The [hypocrites] wait to see what happens to you and, if God brings you success, they say, ‘Were we not on your side?’ but if the disbelievers have some success, they say to them, ‘Did we not have the upper hand over you, and [yet] protect you from the believers?’ God will judge between you all on the Day of Resurrection, and He will give the disbelievers no means of overcoming the believers.
Qurʾān — 4:141
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We sent to you [Muḥammad] the Scripture with the truth, confirming the Scriptures that came before it, and with final authority over them: so judge between them according to what God has sent down. Do not follow their whims, which deviate from the truth that has come to you. We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.
Qurʾān — 5:48
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You who believe, you are responsible for your own souls; if anyone else goes astray it will not harm you so long as you follow the guidance; you will all return to God, and He will make you realize what you have done.
Qurʾān — 5:105
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Say, ‘I stand on clear proof from my Lord, though you deny it. What you seek to hasten is not within my power. Judgement is for God alone: He tells the truth, and He is the best of judges.’
Say, ‘If what you seek to hasten were within my power, the matter would be settled between you and me, but God knows best who does wrong.’
Qurʾān — 6:58–59
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He is the Supreme Master over His subjects. He sends out recorders to watch over you until, when death overtakes any of you, those sent by Us take his soul–– they never fail in their duty.
Then they will all be returned to God, their true Lord. The Judgement truly belongs to Him, and He is the swiftest of reckoners.
Qurʾān — 6:61–62
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We settled the Children of Israel in a good place and provided good things as sustenance for them. It was only after knowledge had come to them that they began to differ among themselves. Your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their differences.
Qurʾān — 10:93
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[Prophet], follow what is being revealed to you, and be steadfast until God gives His
judgement, for He is the Best of Judges.
Qurʾān — 10:109
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The Sabbath was made obligatory only for those who differed about it. On the Day of Resurrection your Lord will judge between them as to their differences.
Qurʾān — 16:124
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As for the believers, those who follow the Jewish faith, the Sabians, the Christians, the Magians, and the idolaters, God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection; God witnesses all things.
Qurʾān — 22:17
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On that Day control will belong to God: He will judge between them. Those who believe and do good deeds will be admitted to Gardens of Delight, while those who disbelieve and reject Our revelations will receive a humiliating torment.
Qurʾān — 22:56–57
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And whoever invokes besides God another deity for which he has no proof – then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed.
Qurʾān — 23:117
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He is God; there is no god but Him; all praise belongs to Him in this world and the next; His is the Judgement; and to Him you shall be returned.
Qurʾān — 28:70
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[Prophet], it is your Lord who will judge between
them on the Day of Resurrection concerning their differences.
Qurʾān — 32:25
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Say, ‘God! Creator of the heavens and earth! Knower of all that is hidden and all that is open, You will judge between Your servants regarding their differences.’
Qurʾān — 39:46
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[They will be told], ‘This is all because when God alone was invoked you rejected this, yet when others were associated with Him you believed [in them].’ Judgement belongs to God the Most High, the Most Great.
Qurʾān — 40:12
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Whatever you may differ about is for God to judge. [Say], ‘Such is God, my Lord. In Him I trust and to
Him I turn,
Qurʾān — 42:10
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How can they believe in others who ordain for them things which God has not sanctioned in the practice of their faith? If it were not for God’s decree concerning the final Decision, judgement would already have been made between them. The evildoers will have a grievous punishment––
Qurʾān — 42:21
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Neither your kinsfolk nor your children will be any use to you on
the Day of Resurrection: He will separate you out. God sees everything you do.
Qurʾān — 60:3
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Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
Qurʾān — 88:25–26
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3. Compulsion and coercion is prohibited, and it is the way of the unbelievers and believers are its victims
Verses that prohibit compulsion in religion and that show that it is the way of the unbelievers –– and not Prophets and their followers –– who use different methods such as compulsion, torture, slaughter, stoning, expulsion from homes, …etc to oppress believers to make them revert from their religion.
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There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in God has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. God is all hearing and all knowing.
Qurʾān — 2:256
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And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed – all of them entirely. Then, [O Muḥammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
Qurʾān — 10:99
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He said, ‘O my people have you considered: if I should be upon clear evidence from my Lord while He has given me mercy from Himself but it has been made unapparent to you, should we force it upon you while you are averse to it?
Qurʾān — 11:28
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His people’s arrogant leaders said, ‘Shu’ayb, we will expel you and your fellow believers from our town unless you return to our religion.’ He said, ‘What! Even if we detest it?
Qurʾān — 7:88
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With the exception of those who are forced to say they do not believe, although their hearts remain firm in faith, those who reject God after believing in Him and open their hearts to disbelief will have the wrath of God upon them and a grievous punishment awaiting them.
Qurʾān — 16:106
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[The people of Shu’ayb said to him:]
They said, ‘Shu’ayb, we do not understand much of what you
say, and we find you very weak in our midst. But for your family, we
would have stoned you, for you have no great status among us.’
Qurʾān — 11:91
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[The father of Abraham said to him:]
His father answered, ‘Abraham, do you reject my gods? I will stone you if you do not stop this. Keep out of my way!’
Qurʾān — 19:46
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[And the people of the two of Antakiya said to their prophets:]
but they answered, ‘We think you are an evil omen. If you do not stop, we shall stone you, and inflict a painful torment on you.’
Qurʾān — 36:18
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[And one amongst the companions of the cave said about his polytheist people:]
Indeed, if they come to know of you, they will stone you or return you to their religion. And never would you succeed, then – ever.
Qurʾān — 18:20
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[And the people of Noah said to him:]
So they said, ‘Noah, if you do not stop this, you will be stoned.’
Qurʾān — 26:116
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[And in the Qurʾān the attrocities of Pharaoh – such as his execution and slaughtering of those who believed with Moses – were mentioned in many instances.]
Remember when We saved you from Pharaoh’s people, who subjected you to terrible torment, slaughtering your sons and sparing only your women––this was a great trial from your Lord––
Qurʾān — 2:49
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damned were the makers of the trench, the makers of the fuel-stoked fire! They sat down to watch what they were doing to the believers. Their only grievance against them was their faith in God, the Mighty, the Praiseworthy, to whom all control over the heavens and earth belongs: God is witness over all things.
Qurʾān — 85:4-9
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The disbelievers said to their messengers, ‘We shall expel you from our land unless you return to our religion.’ But their Lord inspired the messengers: ‘We shall destroy the evildoers, and leave you to dwell in the land after them. This reward is for those who are in awe of meeting Me, and of My warnings.’
Qurʾān — 14:13–14
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[And about the people of Lot:]
The only answer his people gave was to say, ‘Expel Lot’s followers from your town! These men mean to stay chaste!’
Qurʾān — 27:56
The only response his people gave was to say [to one another], ‘Drive them out of your town! These men want to keep themselves chaste!’
Qurʾān — 7:82
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[Prophet], consider the leaders of the Children of Israel who came after Moses, when they said to one of their prophets, ‘Set up a king for us and we shall fight in God’s cause.’ He said, ‘But could it be that you would not fight, if it were ordained for you?’ They said, ‘How could we not fight in God’s cause when we and our children have been driven out of our homeland?’ Yet when they were commanded to fight, all but a few of them turned away: God has full knowledge of those who do wrong.
Qurʾān — 2:246
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[And about the expulsion of the Prophet ﷺ from Makkah:]
And indeed, they were about to drive you from the land to evict you therefrom. And then [when they do], they will not remain [there] after you, except for a little.
Qurʾān — 17:76
And [remember, O Muḥammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and God plans. And God is the best of planners.
Qurʾān — 8:30
You who believe, do not take My enemies and yours as your allies, showing them friendship when they have rejected the truth you have received, and have driven you and the Messenger out simply because you believe in God, your Lord –– not if you truly emigrated in order to strive for My cause and seek My good pleasure. You secretly show them friendship –– I know all you conceal and all you reveal –– but any of you who do this are straying from the right path. If they gain the upper hand over you, they will revert to being your enemies and stretch out their hands and tongues to harm you; it is their dearest wish that you may renounce your faith.
Qurʾān — 60:1–2
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[About the believers amongst the followers of Muḥammad ﷺ]
those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ If God did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where God’s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed. God is sure to help those who help His cause –– God is strong and mighty ––
Qurʾān — 22:40
[… and about it:]
Their Lord has answered them: ‘I will not allow the deeds of any one of you to be lost, whether you are male or female, each is like the other [in rewards]. I will certainly wipe out the bad deeds of those who emigrated and were driven out of their homes, who suffered harm for My cause, who fought and were killed. I will certainly admit them to Gardens graced with flowing streams, as a reward from God: the best reward is with God.’
Qurʾān — 3:195
The poor emigrants who were driven from their homes and possessions, who seek God’s favour and approval, those who help God and His Messenger –– these are the ones who are true –– [shall have a share].
Qurʾān — 59:8
But God forbids you to take as allies those who have fought against you for your faith, driven you out of your homes, and helped others to drive you out: any of you who take them as allies will truly be wrongdoers.
Qurʾān — 60:9
Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits:ᵃ God does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them,ᵇ and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing.ᶜ Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them –– this is what such disbelievers deserve –– but if they stop, then God is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worshipᵈ ᵉ is devoted to God. If they cease hostilities, there can be no [further] hostility, except towards aggressors.
Qurʾān — 2:190–193
ᵃ : The Arabic command la ta’tadu is so general that commentators have agreed that it includes prohibition of starting hostilities, fighting non-combatants, disproportionate response to aggression, etc.
ᵇ : The Muslims were concerned as to whether it was permitted to retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca when on pilgrimage (see Q.2:196). They are here given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers, in the precinct or outside it.
ᶜ : ‘Persecuting you unlawfully is worse than you killing them in the precincts in self-defence.’ The article al- in Arabic sometimes takes the place of a pronoun, as here ‘their persecution’ and ‘your killing them’, it is not the generic al-, cf. Q.2:217. See also Q.2:217 below.
ᵈ : Worship at the sacred mosque.
ᵉ : Cf. Q.8:39 and note ᶜ to Q.2:191 above.
.
They ask you [Prophet] about fighting in the prohibited month. Say, ‘Fighting in that month is a great offence, but to bar others from God’s path, to disbelieve in Him, prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and expel its people, are still greater offences in God’s eyes: persecution is worse than killing.’ᵃ They will not stop fighting you [believers] until they make you revoke your faith, if they can. If any of you revoke your faith and die as disbelievers, your deeds will come to nothing in this world and the Hereafter, and you will be inhabitants of the Fire, there to remain.
Qurʾān — 2:217
ᵃ : To persecute people for believing in God is a worse offence than for the aggrieved party to fight back in the prohibited month. This further explains verse 191.
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[And concerning the persecution of prophets and messengers mentally and physically, the Qur’an points out that everyone of them suffered from these, …]
but We have always appointed adversaries from the wicked, for every prophet: Your Lord is sufficient guide and helper.
Qurʾān — 25:31
[… and they range from threat to death, passing by torture, expulsion to humiliation. We’ll list here some few examples: Starting with Abraham:]
They said, ‘Burn him and avenge your gods, if you are going to do the right thing.’ But We said, ‘Fire, be cool and safe for Abraham.’ They planned to harm him, but We made them suffer the greatest loss.
Qurʾān — 21:68-70
The only answer Abraham’s people gave was, ‘Kill him or burn him!’ but God saved him from the Fire: there truly are signs in this for people who believe.
Qurʾān — 29:24
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[And about Noah:]
So they said, ‘Noah, if you do not stop this, you will be stoned.’
Qurʾān — 26:116
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[And Pharaoh threatened Moses with prison:]
[Pharaoh] said, ‘If you take a god other than me, I will surely place you among those imprisoned.’
Qurʾān — 26:29
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[And Lot was threatened with expulsion from his home:]
but they replied, ‘Lot! If you do not stop this, you will be driven away.’
Qurʾān — 26:167
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4 The Human being is free and responsible for his actions
Verses that point out that the human being is free in his choice of the religion he wishes, if he wills he believes, and if he wills he disbelieves, and that he is responsible for his choice in front of God ﷻ.
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Say [Prophet], ‘Disbelievers: I do not worship what you worship, you do not worship what I worship, I will never worship what you worship, you will never worship what I worship:ᵃ you have your religion and I have mine.’
Qurʾān — 109:1-6
ᵃ : If you keep to your present gods (see Zamakhshari, al-Kashshaf, vol. iv)
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Say, ‘Now the truth has come from your Lord: let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so.’ We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like molten metal, scalding their faces. What a terrible drink! What a painful resting place!
Qurʾān — 18:29
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Whoever accepts guidance does so for his own good; whoever strays does so at his own peril. No soul will bear another’s burden, nor do We punish until We have sent a messenger.
Qurʾān — 17:15
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We said, ‘Get out, all of you! But when guidance comes from Me, as it certainly will, there will be no fear for those who follow My guidance nor will they grieve –– those who disbelieve and deny Our messages shall be the inhabitants of the Fire, and there they will remain.’
Qurʾān — 2:38–39
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So if they believe like you do, they will be rightly guided. But if they turn their backs, then they will be entrenched in opposition. God will protect you from them: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.
Qurʾān — 2:137
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if they argue with you [Prophet], say, ‘I have devoted myselfᵈ to God alone and so have my followers.’ Ask those who were given the Scripture, as well as those without one, ‘Do you too devote yourselves to Him alone?’ If they do, they will be guided, but if they turn away, your only duty is to convey the message. God is aware of His servants.
Qurʾān — 3:20
ᵈ : Literally ‘submitted my face’.
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Everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to God. We have commanded those who were given the Scripture before you, and We command you, to be mindful of God. Even if you do ignore Him, everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him, and He is self-sufficient, worthy of all praise.
Qurʾān — 4:131
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Now clear proof has come to you from your Lord: if anyone sees it, that will be to his advantage; if anyone is blind to it, that will be to his loss –– [Say], ‘I am not your guardian.’
Qurʾān — 6:104
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Say, ‘People, the Truth has come to you from your Lord. Whoever follows the right path follows it for his own good, and whoever strays does so to his own loss: I am not your guardian.’
Qurʾān — 10:108
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[Say, Prophet], ‘Worship no one but God. I am sent to you from Him to warn and to give good news. Ask your Lord for forgiveness, then turn back to Him. He will grant you wholesome enjoyment until an appointed time, and give His grace to everyone who has merit. But if you turn away, I fear you will have torment on a terrible Day: it is to God that you will all return, and He has power over everything.’
Qurʾān — 11:2-4
And Moses said, ‘If you should disbelieve, you and whoever is on the earth entirely – indeed, God is Free of need and Praiseworthy.’
Qurʾān — 14:8
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Say, ‘Everyone does things their own way, but your Lord is fully aware of who follows the best-guided path.’
Qurʾān — 17:84
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I am commanded to recite the Qurʾān.’ Whoever chooses to follow the right path does so for his own good. Say to whoever deviates from it, ‘I am only here to warn.’
Qurʾān — 27:92
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[Prophet], stand firm in your devotion to the upright religion, before an irresistible Day comes from God. On that Day, mankind will be divided: those who rejected the truth will bear the burden of that rejection, and those who did good deeds will have made good provision for themselves.
Qurʾān — 30:43–44
________
We endowed Luqman with wisdom: ‘Be thankful to God: whoever gives thanks benefits his own soul, and as for those who are thankless––God is self-sufficient, worthy of all praise.’
Qurʾān — 31:12
________
Whoever directs himselfᵇ wholly to God and does good work has grasped the surest handhold, for the outcome of everything is with God. As for those who refuse to do this, do not let their refusal sadden you [Prophet] –– they will return to Us and We shall tell them what they have done: God knows all that hearts contain ––
Qurʾān — 31:22–23
ᵇ : Literally ‘his face’.
________
it is He who made you [people] successors to the land. Those who deny the truth will bear the consequences: their denial will only make them more odious to their Lord, and add only to their loss.
Qurʾān — 35:39
________
If you are ungrateful, remember God has no need of you, yet He is not pleased by ingratitude in His servants; if you are grateful, He is pleased [to see] it in you. No soul will bear another’s burden. You will return to your Lord in the end and He will inform you of what you have done: He knows well what is in the depths of [your] hearts.
Qurʾān — 39:7
________
Say, ‘It is God I serve, dedicating my worship entirely to Him –– you may serve whatever you please beside Him.’ Say, ‘The true losers are the ones who will lose themselves and their people on the Day of Resurrection: that is the most obvious loss.
Qurʾān — 39:14–15
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Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful.
Qurʾān — 76:2–3
________
by the soul and how He formed it and inspired it [to know] its own rebellion and piety! The one who purifies his soul succeeds and the one who corrupts it fails.
Qurʾān — 91:7-10
________
By the enshrouding night, by the radiant day, by His creation of male and female! The ways you take differ greatly. There is the one who gives, who is mindful of God, who testifies to goodness –– We shall smooth his way towards ease. There is the one who is miserly, who is self-satisfied, who denies goodness –– We shall smooth his way towards hardship and his wealth will not help him as he falls.
Our part is to provide guidance –– this world and the next belong to Us –– so I warn you about the raging Fire, in which none but the most wicked one will burn, who denied [the truth], and turned away. The most pious one will be spared this –– who gives his wealth away as self-purification, not to return a favour to anyone but for the sake of his Lord the Most High –– and he will be well pleased.
Qurʾān — 92:1-21
________
This is a reminder. Let whoever wishes take the way to his Lord.
Qurʾān — 73:19 – 76:29
but truly this is a reminder. Let whoever wishes to take heed do so:
Qurʾān — 74:54–55
This is a message for all people; for those who wish to take the straight path.
Qurʾān — 81:27–28
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5 Obligation to use the mind, to think and ponder, and prohibition from blindly following the religion of one’s parents
And such verses have a clear relation to the fourth category, since they show that one should use reason, to observe, understand and ponder, and to be independent in his thinking, and not blindly follow a religion just because of a custom or it being the religion of his/her parents. And that’s what makes one free & responsible in his decision.
These verses are extremely abundant. According to one estimate, these verses constitute more than 1/8 of the Holy Qurʾān. I’ll mention briefly some of these verses, but to find more of them, one may either open up a random page of the Qurʾān, or use indexed dictionnaries of the Qurʾān such as the one of Muḥammad Fouād ʿAbd al-Bāqī (freely available here), or one may search for the following keywords and their derivatives: عقل, فكر، عبر، نظر، أولي الألباب، ذكر، سير (السير في الأرض)، and the words آباؤنا وآباؤنا، and other similar expressions such as علم. To keep things short in this list, I’ll include just two verses from each keyword.
________
But when it is said to them, ‘Follow the message that God has sent down,’ they answer, ‘We follow the ways of our fathers.’ Even though their fathers understood nothing and were not guided?
Qurʾān — 2:170
________
when it is said to them, ‘Come to what God has sent down, and to the Messenger,’ they say, ‘What we inherited from our forefathers is good enough for us,’ even though their forefathers knew nothing and were not guided.
Qurʾān — 5:104
________
in the alternation of night and day, in the rain God provides, sending it down from the sky and reviving the dead earth with it, and in His shifting of the winds there are signs for those who use their reason.
Qurʾān — 45:5
________
[We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.
Qurʾān — 16:44
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who remember God standing, sitting, and lying down, who reflect on the creation of the heavens and earth: ‘Our Lord! You have not created all this without purpose–– You are far above that!–– so protect us from the torment of the Fire.
Qurʾān — 3:191
________
There is a lesson in the stories of such people for those who understand. This revelation is no fabrication: it is a confirmation of the truth of what was sent before it; an explanation of everything;ᵃ a guide and a blessing for those who believe.
Qurʾān — 12:111
ᵃ : There are two interpretations of this phrase: (i) ‘everything to do with the story of Joseph’; and (ii) ‘everything to do with religion’.
________
God alternates night and day–– there truly is a lesson in [all] this for those who have eyes to see––
Qurʾān — 24:44
________
Say, ‘Look at what is in the heavens and on the earth.’ But what use are signs and warnings to people who will not believe?
Qurʾān — 10:101
________
So let man observe from what he was created.
Qurʾān — 86:5
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who listen to what is said and follow what is best. These are the ones God has guided; these are the people of understanding.
Qurʾān — 39:18
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Have you not considered that God sends water down from the sky, guides it along to form springs in the earth, and then, with it, brings forth vegetation of various colours, which later withers, turns yellow before your eyes, and is crumbled to dust at His command? There is truly a reminder in this for those who have understanding.
Qurʾān — 39:21
________
and We restored his family to him, with many more like them: a sign of Our mercy and a lesson to all who understand.
Qurʾān — 38:43
________
He gives wisdom to whom He wills, and whoever has been given wisdom has certainly been given much good. And none will remember except those of understanding.
Qurʾān — 2:269
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Say, ‘Travel throughout the earth and see how He brings life into being: and He will bring the next life into being. God has power over all things.
Qurʾān — 29:20
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All the messengers We sent before you [Muḥammad] were men to whom We made revelations, men chosen from the people of their towns. Have the [disbelievers] not travelled through the land and seen the end of those who went before them? For those who are mindful of God, the Home in the Hereafter is better. Do you [people] not use your reason?
Qurʾān — 12:109
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6 The purpose of Prophets and Mesengers
Verses that restrict the functions of Prophets and Messengers (Peace be upon them) in preaching and da’wa, and to give a clear warning, without any type of compulsion or coercion, and that negates the idea that the Messengers have to be guardians and watchers over people.
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if they argue with you [Prophet], say, ‘I have devoted myself to God alone and so have my followers.’ Ask those who were given the Scripture, as well as those without one, ‘Do you too devote yourselves to Him alone?’ If they do, they will be guided, but if they turn away, your only duty is to convey the message. God is aware of His servants.
Qurʾān — 3:20
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Obey God, obey the Messenger, and always be on your guard: if you pay no heed, bear in mind that the sole duty of Our Messenger is to deliver the message clearly.
Qurʾān — 5:92
________
The Messenger’s duty is only to deliver the message: God knows what you reveal and what you conceal.
Qurʾān — 5:99
________
Whether We let you [Prophet] see part of what We threaten them with, or cause you to die [before that], your duty is only to deliver the message: the Reckoning is Ours.
Qurʾān — 13:40
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Those who worshipped others alongside God say, ‘If God had willed, we would not have worshipped anything but Him, nor would our fathers. We would not have declared anything forbidden without His sanction.’ Those before them said the same. Are the messengers obliged to do anything other than deliver [their message] clearly?
Qurʾān — 16:35
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But if they turn away [Prophet], your only duty is to deliver the message clearly.
Qurʾān — 16:82
________
Say, ‘Obey God; obey the Messenger. If you turn away, [know that] he is responsible for the duty placed upon him, and you are responsible for the duty placed upon you. If you obey him, you will be rightly guided, but the Messenger’s duty is only to deliver the message clearly.’
Qurʾān — 24:54
If you say this is a lie, [be warned that] other communities before you said the same. The messenger’s only duty is to give clear warning.’
Qurʾān — 29:18
________
[And the messengers said: (c.f. Q.36:13-18)]
Our duty is only to deliver the message to you,’
Qurʾān — 36:17
________
If they still turn away [remember that] We have not sent you [Prophet] to be their guardian: your only duty is to deliver the message. When We give man a taste of Our mercy, he rejoices in it, but if some harm befalls him on account of what he has done with his own hands, then he is ungrateful.
Qurʾān — 42:48
________
so obey God and the Messenger. If you turn away, remember that Our Messenger’s duty is only to make plain his message.
Qurʾān — 64:12
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We send messengers only to give good news and to warn, so for those who believe and do good deeds there will be no fear, nor will they grieve.
Qurʾān — 6:48
We only send messengers to bring good news and to deliver warning, yet the disbelievers seek to refute the truth with false arguments and make fun of My messages and warnings.
Qurʾān — 18:56
________
Has it not occurred to them that their companionᵃ is not mad but is giving clear warning?
Qurʾān — 7:184
ᵃ : This refers to the Prophet ﷺ.
________
Say [Prophet], ‘I have no control over benefit or harm, [even] to myself, except as God may please: if I had knowledge of what is hidden, I would have abundant good things and no harm could touch me. I am no more than a bearer of warning, and good news to those who believe.’
Qurʾān — 7:188
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So [Prophet] are you going toᵃ abandon some part of what is revealed to you, and let your heart be oppressed by it, because they say, ‘Why is no treasure sent down to him? Why has no angel come with him?’? You are only there to warn; it is God who is in charge of everything.
Qurʾān — 11:12
ᵃ : Literally ‘Perhaps you will . . .’, but this is a challenging figure of speech.
________
Say [Prophet], ‘People, I am sent only to give you clear warning.’
Qurʾān — 22:49
________
[And Noah said:]
I am here only to give people a clear warning.’
Qurʾān — 26:115
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You, [O Muḥammad], are not but a warner.
Qurʾān — 35:23
________
It has not been revealed to me except that I am a clear warner.’
Qurʾān — 38:70
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Say, ‘I am nothing new among God’s messengers. I do not know what will be done with me or you; I only follow what is revealed to me; I only warn plainly.’
Qurʾān — 46:9
________
Say, ‘God alone has knowledge of this: my only duty is to give clear warning.’
Qurʾān — 67:26
________
We sent down the Qurʾān with the truth, and with the truth it has come down –– [Prophet], We sent you only to give good news and warning ––
Qurʾān — 17:105
________
We sent you only to give good news and warning.
Qurʾān — 25:56
________
And those who disbelieved say, ‘Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?’ You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide.
Qurʾān — 13:7
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[Prophet] say, ‘I am only here to give warning. There is no god but God the One, the All Powerful, Lord of the heavens and earth and everything between, the Almighty, the Most Forgiving.’
Qurʾān — 38:65–66
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They ask you [Prophet] about the Hour, saying, ‘When will it arrive?’, but how can you tell [them that]? Its time is known only to your Lord; you are only sent to warn those who fear it.
Qurʾān — 79:42-45
________
I am commanded to recite the Qurʾān.’ Whoever chooses to follow the right path does so for his own good. Say to whoever deviates from it, ‘I am only here to warn.’
Qurʾān — 27:92
________
So [Prophet] warn them: your only task is to give warning
Qurʾān — 88:21
________
So all of these verses restrict and limit the function of Messengers to preaching, warning, and to give good news, using expressions such as “إِنَّمَا” and expressions of negation and restriction. And there other verses that negate that Messengers use or should employ compulsion and coercion, or be guardians over people, …etc
________
So [Prophet] warn them: your only task is to give warning, you are not there to control them.
Qurʾān — 88:21–22
________
We know best what the disbelievers say. You [Prophet] are not there to force them, so remind, with this Qurʾān, those who fear My warning.
Qurʾān — 50:45
________
Now clear proof has come to you from your Lord: if anyone sees it, that will be to his advantage; if anyone is blind to it, that will be to his loss –– [Say], ‘I am not your guardian.’
Qurʾān — 6:104
________
What lasts with God is best for you, if you are believers: I am not your keeper.’
Qurʾān — 11:86
________
Whoever obeys the Messenger obeys God. If some pay no heed, We have not sent you to be their keeper.
Qurʾān — 4:80
________
If it had been God’s will, they would not have done so, but We have not made you their guardian, nor are you their keeper.
Qurʾān — 6:107
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If they still turn away [remember that] We have not sent you [Prophet] to be their guardian: your only duty is to deliver the message. When We give man a taste of Our mercy, he rejoices in it, but if some harm befalls him on account of what he has done with his own hands, then he is ungrateful.
Qurʾān — 42:48
________
yet your people still reject it even though it is the truth. Say, ‘I have not been put in charge of you.
Qurʾān — 6:66
________
Say, ‘People, the Truth has come to you from your Lord. Whoever follows the right path follows it for his own good, and whoever strays does so to his own loss: I am not your guardian.’
Qurʾān — 10:108
________
We have sent the Scripture down to you [Prophet] with the Truth for people. Whoever follows the guidance does so for his own benefit, whoever strays away from it does so at his own peril: you are not in charge of them.
Qurʾān — 39:41
________
As for those who take protectors other than Him, God is watching them; you are not responsible for them.
Qurʾān — 42:6
________
Your Lord has the most knowledge about all of you: if He pleases He will have mercy on you, and if He pleases He will punish you. [Prophet], We did not send you to take charge of them.
Qurʾān — 17:54
________
Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him?
Qurʾān — 25:43
________
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed – all of them entirely. Then, [O Muḥammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
Qurʾān — 10:99
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It is not for you [Prophet] to guide them; it is God who guides whoever He will. Whatever charity you give benefits your own soul, provided you do it for the sake of God: whatever you give will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged.
Qurʾān — 2:272
________
Some of them look at you: but can you guide the blind if they will not see?
Qurʾān — 10:43
________
Though you [Prophet] may be eager to guide them, God does not guide those
who misguide [others],ᵃ nor will they have anyone to help them.
Qurʾān — 16:37
ᵃ : C.f. verse 25 : On the Day of Resurrection they will bear the full weight of their own burden, as well as some of the burden of those they misled with no true knowledge. How terrible their burden will be!
________
you cannot guide the blind out of their error: you cannot make anyone hear you except those who believe in Our signs and submit [to Us].
Qurʾān — 27:81 – Qurʾān — 30:53
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You [Prophet] cannot guide everyone you love to the truth; it is God who guides whoever He will: He knows best those who will follow guidance.
Qurʾān — 28:56
________
Can you [Prophet] make the deaf hear? Or guide either the blind or those who are in gross error?
Qurʾān — 43:40
________
Some of them do listen to you: but can you make the deaf hear if they will not use their minds?
Qurʾān — 10:42
________
You cannot make the dead hear, you cannot make the deaf listen to your call when they turn their backs and leave,
Qurʾān — 27:80, see also: Qurʾān — 30:52
________
And not equal are the living and the dead. Indeed, God causes to hear whom He wills, but you cannot make hear those in the graves.
Qurʾān — 35:22
________
We have sent you [Prophet] with the truth, bearing good news and warning. You will not be responsible for the inhabitants of the Blaze.
Qurʾān — 2:119
________
I am commanded to recite the Qurʾān.’ Whoever chooses to follow the right path does so for his own good. Say to whoever deviates from it, ‘I am only here to warn.’
Qurʾān — 6:52
________
But if they turn away, say, ‘I have proclaimed the message fairly to you all. I do not know whether the judgement you are promised is near or far,
Qurʾān — 21:109
________
Say, ‘Obey God; obey the Messenger. If you turn away, [know that] he is responsible for the duty placed upon him, and you are responsible for the duty placed upon you. If you obey him, you will be rightly guided, but the Messenger’s duty is only to deliver the message clearly.’
Qurʾān — 24:54
________
What about those whose evil deeds are made alluring to them so that they think they are good? God leaves whoever He will to stray and guides whoever He will. [Prophet], do not waste your soul away with regret for them: God knows exactly what
they do.
Qurʾān — 35:8
________
But [Prophet] are you going to worry yourself to death over them if they do not believe in this message?
Qurʾān — 18:6
________
[Prophet], are you going to worry yourself to death because they will not believe?
Qurʾān — 26:3
________
So leave them, [O Muḥammad], for you are not to be blamed.
Qurʾān — 51:54
________
If they disobey you, say, ‘I bear no responsibility for your actions.’
Qurʾān — 26:216
________
For the self-satisfied one you go out of your way –– though you are not to be blamed for his lack of spiritual growth ––
Qurʾān — 80:5-7
________
If they do not believe you, [Prophet], say, ‘I act for myself, and you for yourselves. You are not responsible for my actions nor am I responsible for yours.’
Qurʾān — 10:41
________
Say, ‘Everyone does things their own way, but your Lord is fully aware of who follows the best-guided path.’
Qurʾān — 17:84
________
[Prophet], say, ‘My people, you carry on as you are, and so will I: you will come to realize who will have a happy homecoming in the Hereafter.’ The evildoers will not prosper.
Qurʾān — 6:135
________
[And Shu’ayb said:]
My people, do whatever is within your power, and I will do likewise. Soon you will know who will receive a disgraceful punishment and who is a liar. Watch out, and so will I.’
Qurʾān — 11:93
________
Say to those who do not believe, ‘Do whatever you can: we too are doing what we can,’
and ‘Wait: we too are waiting.’
Qurʾān — 11:121-122
________
Say, ‘O my people, work according to your position, [for] indeed, I am working; and you are going to know
To whom will come a torment disgracing him and on whom will descend an enduring punishment.’
Qurʾān — 39:39-40
________
[Prophet], say, ‘We are all waiting, so you carry on waiting: you will come to learn who has followed the even path, and been rightly guided.’
Qurʾān — 20:135
________
If they turn away, [Prophet], say ,‘God is enough for me: there is no god but Him; I put my trust in Him; He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne.’
Qurʾān — 9:129
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7 Having a different religion does not prohibit kindness and justice
________
God does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of
your homes: God loves the just.
But God forbids you to take as allies those who have fought against you for your faith, driven you out of your homes, and helped others to drive you out: any of you who take them as allies will truly be wrongdoers.
Qurʾān — 60:8-9
[The arabic word used in this verse ‘birr’ (dutiful respect and compassion) is the same word that the Prophet ﷺ commands Muslims to use in the treatment of their own parents, and he ﷺ says, ‘birr is good manners’ (Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim). This verse is—to borrow an expression used by Shaykh Yūsuf al-Qaraḍāwī—the constitution (dustūr) of relations between Muslims and non-Muslims.]
________
[On the authority of Ibn Jarīr, Ibn ʿAbbās (ra) said: Some people of the Ansār that had family ties with [the tribes of] Banū Qurayẓah and al-Naḍīr, and they feared to give them charity – wanting them to convert to Islam, then this verse was revealed:]
It is not for you [Prophet] to guide them; it is God who guides whoever He will. Whatever charity you give benefits your own soul, provided you do it for the sake of God: whatever you give will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged.
Qurʾān — 2:272
________
Today all good things have been made lawful for you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful for you as your food is lawful for them. So are chaste, believing, women as well as chaste women of the people who were given the Scripture before you, as long as you have given them their bride-gifts and married them, not taking them as lovers or secret mistresses. The deeds of anyone who rejects faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Qurʾān — 5:5
Another of His signs is that He created spouses from among yourselves for you to live with in tranquillity: He ordained love and kindness between you. There truly are signs in this for those who reflect.
Qurʾān — 30:21
[This last verse shows that there must be love and kindness between spouses, and the first verse from Surat Al-Māʾidah made marriage with women of the People of the Book (Christians & Jews) lawful.]
________
[And about the polytheist parents:]
If they strive to make you associate with Me anything about which you have no knowledge, then do not obey them. Yet keep their company in this life according to what is right, and follow the path of those who turn to Me. You will all return to Me in the end, and I will tell you everything that you have done.
Qurʾān — 31:15
________
You who believe, be steadfast in your devotion to God and bear witness impartially: do not let hatred of others lead you away from justice, but adhere to justice, for that is closer to awareness of God. Be mindful of God: God is well aware of all that you do.
Qurʾān — 5:8
________
God commands you [people] to return things entrusted to you to their rightful owners, and, if you judge between people, to do so with justice: God’s instructions to you are excellent, for He hears and sees everything.
Qurʾān — 4:58
[And Ibn Kathīr narrated in his tafsīr that Ibn ʿAbbās and Muḥammad b. al-Ḥanafiyyah said, ‘This verse is for the righteous and wicked,’ meaning it is a command that encompasses everyone.]
________
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“The whole ulema have decreed ISIS to be non-Muslims. I am merely following their view. ”
That’s problematic – if the ulema decreed otherwise, would you concur?
Non-muslim.
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Faiz thanks for proving what ISIS is doing is Islamic… you wrote…
” Moreover, the scholars of Islam have traditionally interpreted the command to kill apostates as applying only in the case when the apostate opposes the Muslim state.”
So ISIS is killing those that are opposing the Islamic state.
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John great point, seems that Islam is a theological democracy, what ever the Ulma says is what Islam is.
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Faiz
Granted, there is always more to learn. Dr Brown’s personal opinion does not alter the fact apostasy is considered justly punished by death according to the 4 schools. What about Brown’s comment changes that?
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Bottom line is this, everything ISIS is doing the “Ulma” and more importantly the Islamic sources support one way or another. You may not like the way ISIS is doing what you support, or you may no like the intensity at which they are doing it, but you all support it to some level.
Killing apostates
Killing homosexuals
Cutting off the hands of thieves
Killing adulterers
Public floggings
Etc.. Etc.. Etc..
You may have different criteria on who and how those things are carried out but at the end of the day you still believe just as ISIS Muslims believe.
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no so. they are murderous thugs.
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Paul seriously what don’t you disagree with as Islamic…
Killing apostates
Killing homosexuals
Cutting off the hands of thieves
Killing adulterers
Public floggings
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all of the above.
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Hippy Flower Rainbow is a troll pretending to be an extremist Muslim. I bet he previously used the monikers of Sunny and Mehmet Can. In any case, ISIS are dogshit and so are John and Hippy Flower Rainbow.
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An extremist Muslim called Hippy Flower Rainbow! LOL
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LOL too true
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Killing apostates
Killing homosexuals
Cutting off the hands of thieves
Killing adulterers
Public floggings
Etc.. Etc.. Etc..
Sounds lot like a nick, Yahya sent me.
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Paul,
I think you did agree that killing apostates, in some circumstances is permissible:
In this thread https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/03/21/adam-deen-lets-change-islam/
you said on March 23rd “Punishment for apostasy is not ‘unlawful’ it is required (in certain circumstances) by the prophet himself”
and the hadith we discussed contained:
“I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ), ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”
( http://sunnah.com/bukhari/88)
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Indeed. So?
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Worth reading: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/why_did_ali_burn_some_apostates___by_understanding_islam
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At 5:57 you said “all of the above.”
In response to “Paul seriously what don’t you disagree with as Islamic…”
My error – I blame the double negative used by Hippy Flower Rainbow, So, you agree with all of the policies he listed.
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I write that I disagree with that list as stated. That is not what Islam teaches
LikeLiked by 1 person
Then I am confused. Or maybe you are.
Islam does not teach “killing apostates”
and
“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him”
are surely contradictory.
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Also,
Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391).
Punishment for apostasy (in any case, extremely rare) was not in practice enforced in later times and was completely abolished by the [Ottoman] Turks by a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260/1844. (The New Encyclopedia of Islam, by Cyril Glasse, p.54)
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Paul so you agree that all those things are Islamic?
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Lets take them 1 by 1.
Islam teaches “Killing adulterers”
This claim is false. Period.
Clear now?
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a great video!
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Shia belief is apostasy but Paul is right that not every single Shiite is an apostate. However when brought to court the Shiite has to abondon his Shiism. If he does not it will become apostasy officially.
Sufis are not apostates in general but nowadays many Sufis are apostates.
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says who? You? lol
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You are right that you cannot know what the belief of a person is. Therefore there is a trial. After the trial it is clear what the particular Shiite believes.
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I get to see everyone’s email address who comments on this blog.
A Muslim’s email is readily recognisable.
Your email address is this:
duke_pr@gmail.com
So Duke baby hows it going?
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No I am Muslim.
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And I am a pink flamingo. Duke we weren’t born yesterday, & can spot trolls a mile off.
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Paul you wrote…
Islam teaches “Killing adulterers”
This claim is false. Period.
Well according to this article
“Sane adult male and female participants to zinā were to receive a fixed corporal punishment (ḥadd): one hundred lashes and exile for unmarried free persons, stoning to death for married or previously married free persons, and fifty lashes (without exile) for slaves. ”
Thats the sunni’s schools, for the Shia the article says…
“Shiite law was univocal in supporting an intensified version of the ḥadd zinā, namely execution by the sword rather than the normal ḥadd zinā (which was flogging for the unmarried and stoning for the previously married).”
Hmm now where did I get that article from… Oh thats right you posted it from Dr
https://bloggingtheology.net/2015/08/19/1810/
So is Jonathan AC Brown wrong?
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This troll is a bigger piece of shit than Shamoun. What’s the matter, got banned from AsharisAssemble again so you decided to irritate the people here?
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Kmak whats wrong don’t like Paul getting caught in a lie, so you have to result to insults and false accusations. Why not respond to the fact that Paul lied when he said that the claim that Islamic laws calls for the killing of adulterers is false, is well just FALSE?
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Radio Silence. Well now that Paul has been proved wrong by Paul’s own re post of Dr Jonathan AC Brown regarding the very ISLAMIC practice of killing Adulterers by stoning lets move on to the next thing.
Killing homosexuals is that in the Islamic sharia law?
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its not false. And ‘Killing homosexuals’ is not part of ‘Islamic sharia law’
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Hmm so Dr Jonathan AC Brown says the punishment for Adulterers if they are married or previously married is Stoning to death, Non Scholar, Revert\Apostate\Revert again Paul Williams says its not Islamic. Hmmm who am I to believe, yah going with your own Islamic scholar who you frequently use as a source.
So you now say Killing homosexuals is not Islamic. Interesting because in one of your older blogs before you where outed as a homosexual you wrote an article justifying the very Islamic practice of killing homosexuals. So you seem to have changed your position on this? The Question is Why?
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‘you where outed as a homosexual’ – I have never made a secret of my homosexuality. Anyone who calls themselves ‘Hippy Flower Rainbow’ is probably not straight either lol
Fact: ‘Killing homosexuals is not Islamic’.
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But in your article from the past you said it was. So what caused you to change your position on this?
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I have not changed my position one iota. ‘Killing homosexuals is not Islamic’.
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But you said it was before and now you say its not so thats a change. But lets take a look at what some Islamic sources say shall we…
al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.
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And here is some more…The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).
Some of them thought that they should be stoned to death, which was narrated from both ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them).
After the Sahaabah, the fuqaha’ differed concerning the matter. Some of them said that the homosexual should be executed no matter what his situation, whether he is married or not.
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and moreSome of them said that he should be punished in the same way as an adulterer, so he should be stoned if he is married and flogged if he is not married.
Some of them said that a severe punishment should be carried out on him, as the judge sees fit.
Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah be pleased with him) discussed this issue at length, and he mentioned the evidence and arguments of the fuqaha’, but he supported the first view. This is explained in his book al-Jawaab al-Kaafi’ li man sa’ala ‘an al-Dawa’ al-Shaafi, which he wrote to deal with this immoral action. We will quote some of what he said:
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And tThe scholars differed as to whether it is to be punished more severely than zina, or whether the punishment for zina should be more severe, or whether the punishments should be the same. There are three points of view:
Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib, Khaalid ibn al-Waleed, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Zubayr, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas, Maalik, Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Imam Ahmad according to the more sound of the two reports from him and al-Shaafa’i according to one of his opinions, were of the view that the punishment for homosexuality should be more severe than the punishment for zina, and the punishment is execution in all cases, whether the person is married or not.
Al-Shaafa’i, according to the well-known view of his madhhab, and Imam Ahmad according to the other report narrated from him, were of the view that the punishment for the homosexual should be the same as the punishment for the adulterer.
Imam Abu Haneefah was of the view that the punishment for the homosexual should be less severe than the punishment for the adulterer, and it is a punishment to be determined by the judge (ta’zeer). his sums it up…
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So Paul what is your source that says Homosexuals should not be killed in Islam?
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you have not provided any evidence at all that homosexual should be killed.
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Hmmm so I quote Islamic sources and that is not evidence interesting. So since you will not accept Islamic sources what will you accept?
Do you practice Adam Deen Islam?
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‘Hmmm so I quote Islamic sources and that is not evidence interesting’
yes it is moderately interesting that your ‘evidence’ does not refute the fact that ‘Homosexuals should not be killed in Islam’
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Paul what does “execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Mean to you?
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it means precisely what is says.
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Ok so it means to KILL someone correct?
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the words do seem to say that yes.
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Hmm so I quote al-Timmidhhi Abu Dawood and Ibn Maahah all who say homosexuals should be “Executed”
The Sahabah were unanimously agreed on the executions of homosexuals,
Ali and Ibn Abbas say Homosexuals should be stoned to death
Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib, Khaalid ibn al-Waleed, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Zubayr, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas, Maalik, Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Imam Ahmad beleived that the punishment should be MORE Sever than ZINA.
Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq relying on the wisdom of Ali ibn Abi Taalib had homosexuals burned alive.
Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas said: The highest point in the town should be found and the homosexual should be thrown head first from it, then stones should be thrown at him.
Ok so I have proven that killing homosexuals is very Islamic just like I proved that killing adulterers who are married or previously is Islamic. So lets move on to the next point.
Cutting off the hands of thieves. Do you believe that cutting off the hands of thieves is Islamic?
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Brother Paul Williams, no need to waste your time here is the source of that guy,(https://islamqa.info/en/38622) Fatwa issued on Punishment for the people who indulged in homosexuality. There is no punishment for those who don’t indulge in such act.
Same source that troll in using:
He wants to repent from homosexuality and needs help:
“…More important than all of the above is making du’aa’ and seeking the help of Allaah to ward off this evil from you. Make the most of the times and situations in which prayers are answered, such as sujood (prostration), before the tasleem at the end of prayer, the last third of the night, when it is raining, when travelling, when fasting, and when breaking the fast.” https://islamqa.info/en/27176
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Brother Islam so you agree with me that the punishment for homosexuals who engage in homosexual sex is death. Good to know that you support ISIS ideology since they believe the same thing.
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Isis is a bunch of worthless, pathetic goons. Period. I don’t waste my time with trolls, so go away.
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‘you agree with me that the punishment for homosexuals who engage in homosexual sex is death’
So we are getting a little more nuanced now!
Perviously you claimed (wrongly) that Islam teaches the ‘killing of homosexuals’.
Now you say:
“the punishment for homosexuals who engage in homosexual sex is death.”
But dude, this is still not the Islamic position
You have still some way to go before you get it right. I’m in no hurry…
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So when confronted with the hard reality of Islam the only response is to call me a troll. Yah ok moving on. So what about chopping off the hands of thieves are you going to deny that is Islamic as well?
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that’s right its not the Islamic teaching
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Well according to the Quran which is the Islamic source, that is unless you follow Adam Deen Islam.
Sahih International: [As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
Pickthall: As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Yusuf Ali: As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
Shakir: And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Muhammad Sarwar: Cut off the hands of a male or female thief as a punishment for their deed and a lesson for them from God. God is Majestic and All-wise.
Mohsin Khan: Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is AllPowerful, AllWise.
Arberry: And the thief, male and female: cut off the hands of both, as a recompense for what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from God; God is All-mighty, All-wise.
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Leviticus 20:13
‘If a man lies with a man as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them ‘
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Jacob thank you for quoting Gods true words, but that has nothing to do with Paul Williams denial of true Islam.
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Slightly off- topic, but why aren’t more British Muslims condemning Saudi Arabia’s brutal military incursions into Yemen? I thought that the killing of Muslims was the main reason for radicalisation amongst western muslims, so it’s a bit of a mystery to me why they aren’t getting radicalized by Saudi killings of muslims.
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John haven’t you figured it out. Muslims don’t care that Muslims are getting killed, they just care who’s doing the killing.
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Looks like Paul has gone radio silent when confronted with the overwhelming Islamic evidence. Now Paul the only thing you can do now is either leave Islam or give your byda and make your hidra to the Islamic State.
I really don’t care either way
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I’m hurt that you don’t care either way. I thought Christians cared about other people.
Nevertheless it is still a fact that it is not Islamic teaching to go “chopping off the hands of thieves”.
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So the Quran is wrong then? You know better than Allah?
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The Quran is quite right. It is you who are in the wrong.
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Ok so explain to me what this verse means?
Sahih International: [As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
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it means precisely what is says.
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Is the Quran islamic?
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The Quran is the Word of God Himself.
Nevertheless, it is still a fact that it is not Islamic teaching to go “chopping off the hands of thieves”.
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Dippy Flower Rainbow or I’ll just say Dippy for short.
Oh I see, Leviticus 20:13, where it clearly states PUT TO DEATH those who commit sex between males, is the true words of God, so therefore it’s ok? Where’s your condemnation of these verses? Why don’t you have an issue with this? Me thinks this is hypocracy, double standards and to quote james whites’s favourite accusation against Muslims ‘unequal scales’! Sort out your ‘word of God’ before pointing the finger at other scriptures. Get your own house in order first.
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*hypocrisy*
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Wow so the Quran says “thief…male and the female…amputate their hands” and yet you claim” it is not Islamic teaching to go “chopping off the hands of thieves”.
Guess you have a different definition for “amputate” than I do. So in your world what does “amputate mean”?
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I’m sure I accept the standard dictionary definition of the word
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Google Dictionary has amputate as “cut off (a limb), typically by surgical operation.”
So is it Islamic to “cut off (a limb), typically by surgical operation.”?
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“Oh I see, Leviticus 20:13, where it clearly states PUT TO DEATH those who commit sex between males, is the true words of God, so therefore it’s ok? Where’s your condemnation of these verses? Why don’t you have an issue with this? Me thinks this is hypocracy, double standards and to quote james whites’s favourite accusation against Muslims ‘unequal scales’! Sort out your ‘word of God’ before pointing the finger at other scriptures. Get your own house in order first.”
1. either all homosexual action of boning other men has been taken back in time, past , present and future and placed on jesus’ “sinless” body /entered into his body or the law still applies and the actor has to be punished according to lev 20:13.
2. no animal sacrificial ritual abrogated torah laws
3. human sacrificial ritual does not take into account future homosexual actions which are complete disobedience to lev 20:13
4. torah law is either broken or obeyed
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thats should be cut off (a limb), typically by surgical operation, of a thief?
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That is a technical question I do not know the answer to
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LOL ok paul I will leave you in your delusional dishonest state. LOL
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lol
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And the winner on points is….Hippy Flower Rainbow
Williams can only manage a feeble ‘lol’ and he’s looking bedraggled and tired in his corner but no doubt will return for another beating.
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thanks Andy.
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Andy, do you think anyone cares who you declare to be the winner? 😉
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Hippy Flower Rainbow is not interested in the truth about Islam, he just wants to vent his need to demonise Islam and Muslims.
My disagreements with his portrayal of Islamic teaching are quite orthodox. Maybe if i can be bothered I will point out why.
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Faiz,
Many of Paul’s fans will have been disappointed by this bout. We look forward to him being bothered.
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Hippy,
Regarding the cutting of the hand for the thief, it is more complicated than you make it out to be. Islamic law is much more complex than people like you characterize it.
First of all, the thief can seek forgiveness by returning to the victim what he/she stole. It states in the “Reliance of the Traveler”, a classic manual on the Shafi’i school:
“A thief’s repentance is of no benefit to him until he returns whatever he stole. If moneyless, he must have the victim absolve him of financial responsibility.”
Second, the punishment of cutting the hand is only applied if the value of the item stolen is greater than a quarter of a dinar or more (approx. 1.5 grams of gold), as stated in Sahih Bukhari:
” Narrated `Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “The hand should be cut off for stealing something that is worth a quarter of a Dinar or more.””
Third, theft of certain items does not result in cutting of the hand, as stated in another Shafi’i manual, “Bulugh al-Maram”:
“Rafi’ bin Khudiaj (RAA) narrated, ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say, “There is no cutting off of a hand for taking fruit or the pith of a palm tree.” Related by Ahmad and four Imams. At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Hibban graded it as Sahih.”
Fourth, it is a requirement in the law that the judge try to acquit the accused by suggesting other possibilities. In “Bulugh al-Maram”, it is stated:
“Abu Umaiyah al-Makhzumi (RAA) narrated, ‘A thief who has made a confession was brought to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) but no goods were found with him. Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said to him, “I do not think you have stolen!” The man replied, ‘Yes I have.’ The Prophet (ﷺ) repeated it to him twice or thrice, so he gave his commands concerning him, and his hand was cut off. He was then brought to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who said to him, “Ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance.” The man said, ‘I ask Allah’s forgiveness and turn to Him in repentance.’ The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then said three times, “O Allah! forgive him.” Related by Abu Dawud, Ahmad and An-Nasa’i with a trustworthy chain or narrators, and it is Abu Dawud’s version.”
Fifth, the thief can escape punishment if the victim intercedes for him/her. Again, in “Bulugh al-Maram”, it states:
Safwan bin Umaiyah (RAA) narrated, ‘When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) commanded that the thief who had stolen his cloak (i.e. Safwan’s) should have his hand cut off. Safwan wanted to intercede, for the thief’s hand not to be removed. Thereupon the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said to him, “Why didn’t you do so before bringing him to me?” Related by Ahmad, the four Imams, and Al-Hakim graded it as Sahih.
Sixth, a poor person who steals food is NOT to be punished unless he takes more than he needs, and even then, he can only be punished if the value is equal to that of a”shield”:
“‘Abdullah bin ‘Amro bin al-‘As (RAA) narrated, ‘The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was asked about dated which are still hanging on the palm tree, he then said, “If a needy person eats some dates, but without taking a supply away in his garment, he is not to be blamed, but if anyone takes away any of it, he is to be fined and punished. And if anyone takes away any of it (the dates) after it has been put in the place where it is going to be dried, and it amounts to the price of a shield, he must have his hand cut off.” Related by Abu Dawud and An-Nasa’i. Al-Hakim graded it as Sahih.”
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Also, it is not allowed to punish people who commit theft during times of famine or other difficulties:
Yahya ibn Abi Kathir reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Do not cut the hand of the thief who steals dates in the year of famine.”
Source: Muṣannaf Abd al-Razzāq 18371
As-Sa’di reported: I asked Ahmad ibn Hanbal about this narration and he said, “No, the hand is not cut for theft when there is a need for that and the people are in famine and hardship.”
Source: I’lām al-Muwaqqi’īn 3/17
http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2012/09/18/umar-on-justice-do-not-cut-the-hand-of-the-thief-who-steals-food-out-of-starvation/
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Andy, if that’s how you really feel, then you really need to get a life!
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thank you Faiz for bothering to state the truth! I was really reluctant to dig out all those references for the ridiculously named Hippy Flower Rainbow.
It would have been a case of pearls before swine!
As you know similar caveats can be produced from the authentic teaching of the prophet for all the other items on the list.
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Jazak Allah Khair, brother Paul.
“And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish”” (The Holy Quran, 17:81).
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Yes, I know how you feel. I was also debating whether to spend the time to do REAL research, which people like Hippy and Andy evidently don’t like to do. And I won’t be holding my breath, hoping that it will change their mindset, but you never know.
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he is a regular troll on this blog and goes by different names. I know Andy from Speakers corner. He is a decent intelligent chap even though he is an atheist!
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Faiz
“Second, the punishment of cutting the hand is only applied if the value of the item stolen is greater than a quarter of a dinar or more (approx. 1.5 grams of gold), as stated in Sahih Bukhari:”
So more hands are lopped off during a recession when the value of gold typically shoots through the roof. LOL!
What is disturbing is that you believe that after all of those “nuances” of sharia, cutting off someone’s hand for theft is justified given the right circumstances. I think it is absolutely barbaric and savage.
Hippy
“John haven’t you figured it out. Muslims don’t care that Muslims are getting killed, they just care who’s doing the killing.”
Which also explains why it is that despite these proclamations of outrage that Isis is killing more muslims than any other group, there are no British muslims signing up to go and engage in jihad against them. I hope one of the Muslims on this thread speaks up on that – why are people complaining that Isis is killing more Muslims than anyone else but no British Muslims are going to Syria or Iraq to fight them?
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John, I could care less what you think! People like you don’t have any reasons beyond your emotions to oppose Islam. Who decides what is “barbaric and savage”? You?
I am just curious. Are you for or against the death penalty for certain crimes? Many people, liberals mostly, feel that the death penalty for any crime (including murder) is “barbaric” as well. I am just wondering how you feel about it.
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Also, it does not go unnoticed how you ignore the “nuances” of Islamic law and make the laughable claim that “more hands are lopped off during a recession…”! But hey, if you want to be an idiot, who am I to stop you? 😉
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John
a key to understanding the hudud punishments in Islam is to see them as a deterrent. Unlike with ISIS who apparently merrily chop off limbs, the prophet took a different approach.
Professor of Islamic Studies Jonathan Brown states:
However, the evidentiary standards for these punishment were often impossibly high, and were thus infrequently implemented in practice. Moreover, Muhammad ordered Muslim judges to ‘ward off the Hudud by ambiguities.’ The severe Hudud punishments were meant to convey the gravity of those offenses against God and to deter, not to be carried out. If a thief refused to confess, or if a confessed adulterer retracted his confession, the Hudud punishments would be waived.
A.C. Brown, Jonathan Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet’s Legacy pp. 180–181.
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John you said:
‘there are no British muslims signing up to go and engage in jihad against them. I hope one of the Muslims on this thread speaks up on that – why are people complaining that Isis is killing more Muslims than anyone else but no British Muslims are going to Syria or Iraq to fight them?’
Firstly there are already Muslims in the British army and airforce, which are both actively involved in fighting ISIS.
Secondly. Have you been living in a cave? It is a CRIME for any civilian to travel to Syria and fight – on whichever side. You want British people to break the law?
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“…Muhammad ordered Muslim judges to ‘ward off the Hudud by ambiguities.’”
Exactly, as I showed above. But trolls and ignoramuses like John ignore these “nuances” and prefer to make emotionally charged statements, which are bereft of any rational thought.
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Interesting quotes:
‘Hudud offenses are overturned by the slightest of doubts (shubuhat).’
Wael, B. Hallaq (2009). Shariah: Theory, Practice and Transformations. Cambridge University Press. p. 311.
‘These punishments were rarely applied in pre-modern Islam.’
Wael Hallaq (2009), An introduction to Islamic law, p.173. Cambridge University Press.
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Oh but brother Paul, these are just “nuances” and Islamic law is barbaric! Why? Because I say so, that’s why! (Disclaimer: sarcasm fully intended)
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your sarcasm overwhelms me
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Faiz
Strange that you don’t care what I think but then turn around and ask me what I think. Civilized people decide what is barbaric and savage – and cutting off limbs qualifies as such. Civilized societies have established that crimes have psychological and emotional dimensions that cause people to act in ways that leads them to commit crimes.
Some thieves steal because of a compulsion beyond their control, others steal as a cry for help, some steal because they were raised by unscrupulous parents or guardians to steal and have developed a warped sense of moral responsibility. Hence, the possibility of rehabilitation and leniency underpin many legal decisions in civilized societies.
Your “nuances” don’t measure up to this rational approach to crime – basing your legal decisions on the moral sensibilities of 7th century Arabians who were completely ignorant of the science of human psychology and criminal behaviour is morally suspect. 7th century Arabs had a great excuse for their behaviour – they lived well before scientific advances showed some of their legal choices to be barbaric and also they were simply ignorant of the workings of the human mind.They had no choice – given their superstitious beliefs – than to act in barbaric ways.
On the other hand, you, Faiz, live in the 21st century. You have access (if you want it) to the latest scientific research into criminal behaviour and the latest research into the neurosciences that explores how the mind works and the psychological states that drive every one of us. You have no excuse for defending barbarism and savagery.
So, I would say that yes, the death penalty is barbaric – future generations who are more scientifically literate than us will certainly think so – but at our present state of knowledge it is a rational choice that those offenders whom we deem to pose a consistent threat to others and who have committed extremely heinous crimes should face the death penalty.
That is a far different moral decision than cutting off the hand of someone who steals a couple of pairs of gold earrings.
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LOL, thank you for proving your double standards: the death penalty is “a rational choice” but may not be judged that way by “future generations” (as if that has any bearing on the issue). Well, there are many people who think it is NOT “a rational choice” and feel that it should be abolished. Do you agree or disagree? I noticed how how you danced around this issue. And what “present state of knowledge” are you referring to pray tell?
You have proven what I said before. You are basing it on an emotional argument. What exactly is a “civilized society”. Define it. And who determines what is “civilized” and what is not civilized? You’re break to square one, dear John. You’re going in circles.
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*You’re BACK to square one…not “break”.
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By the way, when I said I could care less what you think, I was referring to your asinine views on Islamic law being “barbaric and savage”. I followed up with the question on the death penalty to determine whether your views on it are based on rational thought or a double standard. Your response was mostly what I was expecting!
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Paul
“Professor of Islamic Studies Jonathan Brown states:”
Is Johnathan Brown part of the ulema? And why should his opinion matter to Isis?
“You want British people to break the law?”
No, I would like to see some consistency. We are told that people are joining Isis because they are outraged that Muslims are dying because of western meddling, yet – as you rightly point out – Isis is killing more muslims than they are killing non-muslims and apart from a few blog posts and half-hearted articles in the media, British muslims don’t seem to be too moved by the killings of Muslims by Isis – if killing muslims was such a horror for you guys as is claimed, I would expect to see a spontaneous spurt of muslims going of to wage jihad against them all of their own accord.
That hasn’t happened, but, even worse, we don’t even see anything like mass demonstrations by muslims denouncing Isis’ killings of Muslims. Just an observation.
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Psychology is applied in Islamic law as well, you ignorant fool! It is a well-known precept in Sharia that insane people or those found not to be in a normal state of mind are NOT to be punished. You would have known that had you done some honest and fair research. So, by your own words, Islamic law IS civilized because it takes psychological factors into consideration with regard to criminal acts.
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John,
Dr. Jonathan Brown is a scholar of Islam and he is a Muslim. His views count much more than yours, I’m afraid.
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Faiz
“Well, there are many people who think it is NOT “a rational choice” and feel that it should be abolished. Do you agree or disagree?”
And the debate is a healthy one – I would be happy when the time comes that we can do away with the death penalty. Would you be happy when the time comes that butchering living human beings because of some 7th century superstition is accepted by Muslims as a savage and barbaric act?
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The Hudud punishments under Shariah are mandated and fixed by God. They are not man-made rules.
‘According to the Shariah the punishment for adultery is stoning, but there has to be either a confession by the party or parties involved or four just witnesses. That’s why such a punishment has been extremely rare in traditional Islamic society.
The punishment for murder is death unless the family of the victim accepts blood money. Although these are transgressions against God, repentance is still accepted and the Hadith strongly limits the application of hudud. In a Shari’te court, proof of offence is made very difficult, and the judge or qadi, is even permitted to accept the withdrawal of confessions. Many religious scholars, over the ages, have given the edict that the punishments for thief should only be carried out in a society that is Islamically just from an economic point of view and that it should not be applied to a petty thief who has stolen because of poverty or dire need.’
The Heart of Islam: Enduring Values for Humanity by Seyyed Hossein Nasr pp152-153. He is professor of Islamic Studies at George Washington University
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Faiz
“Dr. Jonathan Brown is a scholar of Islam and he is a Muslim. His views count much more than yours, I’m afraid.”
I’m sure Isis is having second thoughts.
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Still not answering my question? Do you agree or disagree that is not “a rational choice”?
And how do you define “civilized”. Still waiting…
And do you acknowledge that Islamic law take psychological factors into consideration?
“7th century superstition”? So, are you an atheist?
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I love this hadith:
In Sahih Muslim,
A person came to Allah’s Apostle said:
Allah’s messenger, I have committed an offence which deserves imposition of haad, so impose it upon me according to the Book of Allah.
Thereupon he said: Were you not present with us at the time of prayer? He said: Yes. Thereupon he said: You have been granted pardon.
— Sahih Muslim, 37:6660
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Faiz
“Psychology is applied in Islamic law as well, you ignorant fool! It is a well-known precept in Sharia that insane people or those found not to be in a normal state of mind are NOT to be punished. ”
Some of the psychological states I mentioned are deemed neither insane nor not “normal” states of mind, you ignorant fool! For example, compulsions are not abnormal because many normal functioning people have compulsions. Similarly, manias like kleptomania are not insanity, nor are they implicitly abnormal since many people have manias – the question is whether your particular mania is legal or not.
But I am happy to hear that Islam gave us the neurosciences.
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LOL, ISIS’ views count about as much as yours. There are extremists/idiots in every religion or ideology, even secular ideologies.
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Paul
“The Hudud punishments under Shariah are mandated and fixed by God. They are not man-made rules.”
can god’s law actually exist in creation given Islamic theology? If the laws come from god then they must be somehow part of him, yet Islam holds that god cannot become immanent and still be divine?
Faiz
“Still not answering my question? Do you agree or disagree that is not “a rational choice”?”
Not sure what you are saying here. Your question is pointless because I answered it in my long post. Didn’t I?
“And do you acknowledge that Islamic law take psychological factors into consideration?”
I don’t care what factors Islamic law takes into consideration – if at the end of it you butcher living human beings, then you are savage and barbaric.
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Kleptomania is considered to be a mental disorder. According to the Mayo Clinic:
“Kleptomania is a serious mental health disorder that can cause much emotional pain to you and your loved ones if not treated.”
Therefore, from an Islamic point of view, a person who steals due to an uncontrollable urge could be exempted from the punishment, since that is one of the precepts of the Sharia (acquitting an individual based on doubt). Any doubt as to the person’s mental health would be grounds for sparing that person.
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Here is the link for the Mayo Clinic:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/kleptomania/basics/definition/con-20033010
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Faiz
“LOL, ISIS’ views count about as much as yours. There are extremists/idiots in every religion or ideology, even secular ideologies.”
So Dr Brown’s 2 cents isn’t worth much to the people who could use it the most? Point taken.
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No, you didn’t answer my question. You said it is “a rational choice”, but you didn’t answer my question as to whether you agree or disagree with those people who say that the death penalty is barbaric and should be banned. Do you agree that it should be banned? I am not talking about the future. I am talking about the present.
Still not answering my other questions? The silence is deafening…
And how do you define “civilized”. Still waiting…
“7th century superstition”? So, are you an atheist?
And finally, no one cares what you think about Islam, dude. Get over it. Your arguments are emotional. You keep showing that over and over again.
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“can god’s law actually exist in creation given Islamic theology? If the laws come from god then they must be somehow part of him…”
what do you mean? you mean a created law is attached to gods brain/mind?
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Faiz
“Therefore, from an Islamic point of view, a person who steals due to an uncontrollable urge could be exempted from the punishment, since that is one of the precepts of the Sharia (acquitting an individual based on doubt).”
Look, if it so difficult as you claim for anyone to actually have their limbs butchered under sharia, the question arises, why have that barbaric contingency at all? If you are claiming that it almost never happens, then why not just do away with it completely and Muslims would not have to defend such a savage practice?
The only reason you cannot do that is because of 7th century superstition – you have to defend the practice because to admit that it is unnecessary and barbaric would be to acknowledge that your 7th century legal system is based on superstition and the reasoning of people who were ignorant and backward.
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robert2016
“what do you mean? you mean a created law is attached to gods brain/mind?”
Well that ‘s actually the question I was hoping Paul – or someone – would answer isn’t it? I don’t know – is god’s law somehow part of god, if it comes through his word does that mean it retains his divinity since his word is part of him, or is him or whatever?
Faiz
“No, you didn’t answer my question.”
I think if you read my post carefully you will see that this question has been answered.
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The Hudud punishments under Shariah are mandated and fixed by God. They are not man-made rules.
John are you an atheist?
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” I don’t know – is god’s law somehow part of god, if it comes through his word does that mean it retains his divinity since his word is part of him, or is him or whatever?”
you mean part of his mind? so his thoughts become oral communication? so whoever passes those communication must also retain something divine?
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Paul
“John are you an atheist?”
Agnostic.
robert2016
“you mean part of his mind? so his thoughts become oral communication? so whoever passes those communication must also retain something divine?”
Again, you tell me, it’s your faith (I presume). What do you think? Are god’s laws of god – do they come from god’s nature, do they reflect some aspect of god’s character or goodness (or badness), are they merely some random and meaningless hoops that muslims jump through for reasons unknown, or little understood?
You tell me, that’s why I ask.
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John, you said:
“Look, if it so difficult as you claim for anyone to actually have their limbs butchered under sharia, the question arises, why have that barbaric contingency at all? If you are claiming that it almost never happens, then why not just do away with it completely and Muslims would not have to defend such a savage practice?”
Look, you still haven’t explained how something is “barbaric” and who determines it. You keep dancing around this question with vague answers.
The point of the law is to serve as a deterrent. That is why it is in place.
As I have said, I don’t care what you think, and there is no need for me to “defend” the Sharia. People like you have nothing concrete with which to criticize, except your own personal opinions and emotions.
You said:
“The only reason you cannot do that is because of 7th century superstition – you have to defend the practice because to admit that it is unnecessary and barbaric would be to acknowledge that your 7th century legal system is based on superstition and the reasoning of people who were ignorant and backward.”
Ah, so now we know that you are an agnostic. This raises yet another question. How exactly do you know that Islam is a “7th century superstition”? What would constitute evidence, in your view, that Islam is not a “superstition” but the legitimate truth?
Oh and by the way, you can use buzz words like “superstition”, “barbaric” and “savage” all you want. It doesn’t prove anything except that you like to put yourself on a pedestal and claim that you are more “civilized”. I am still waiting for you to define what it means to be “civilized” and who gets to determine what is and is not “civilized”.
Finally, you have not answered my question about the death penalty. You gave a very vague answer and have continued to dodge the question, and I suspect I know why. 😉
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Faiz
I’m not using the words “barbaric” and “savage” as buzzwords. I truly believe that mutilating people and butchering living human beings is savagely cruel, primitive, and morally unsophisticated.
Even if your Muslim thief passes all of the psych tests you claim that sharia judges apply to such cases and turns out to just be a bad person who steals for personal gratification , I would still say that it is barbaric and savage. The civilized thing to do would be to find some other form of punishment that administers justice that doesn’t sound like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
Asking me to define what is civilized is merely a way of avoiding the fact that mutilating people because some 7th century nomads thought it was just turns out to be savage. Civilized people apply reason and rational thought to their punishments, and seek ways to remedy the underlying issues that cause crimes in the first place, or administer punishments that leave open the possibility that offenders can be rehabilitated without butchering them.
You think butchering people is not barbaric because – as Paul says – it is god’s will. That is mere superstition – 7th century superstition to be precise. Sorry if that hurts.
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Faiz
Also, there is a burgeoning body of (scientific and rational) research that is leading some medical professionals to believe that the kinds of gut bacteria you have in your body can affect your behaviour – an absence of probiotic bacteria coupled with an over abundance of harmful bacteria in our gut can influence how you behave, and may contribute to criminal behaviours.
Rational people are even starting to look at the effects that too much sugar in our diets is affecting mental outlooks and even criminal behaviour.
The very things that we put into our bodies could be a factor contributing to criminality, and none of these things would be considered to be mental illness.
Compare these types of research into the biological root causes of all kinds of behaviour to your vague idea that sharia judges apply “psych tests” to offenders before they butcher them and you must surely see that your 7th century superstition is hopelessly inadequate to explain any of these root causes, let alone, pass savage judgement on them.
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LOL John. You cannot answer my questions with a straight forward response. Rather, all you can muster is the “I say so” response. You still have yet determine who decides what is “civilized” and what is not. Nor have you indicated how you define what it means to be “civilized”. All you can do is make vague rants about Islam being “barbaric” or “savage” or a “7th century superstition”. Buzz!!!
Your responses express the same cultural chauvinism that is common in many people of western background, almost like the “white man’s burden” view that was used by Europeans colonize and brutalize the rest of the world. Basically, you say something is “barbaric” because you say it is, and something is “civilized” because you say it is.
Not to mention the laughable circular arguments you use in your rants. Getting desperate are we, little John?
Still waiting for your answers to my questions? 😉
How do you define “civilized”. Still waiting…
How exactly do you know that Islam is a “7th century superstition”? What would constitute evidence, in your view, that Islam is not a “superstition” but the legitimate truth?
Finally, you have not answered my question about the death penalty. You gave a very vague answer and have continued to dodge the question, and I suspect I know why.
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Still not getting it, John? The evidence you presented about probiotic bacteria is just another possible reason why a person committing a crime could be pardoned, so long as the evidence indicates as such. But there are many people who commit crimes due to their own personal greed and malevolence. There are many people who steal put of pure greed and a complete disregard for other people’s well-being. These types of people are the ones which the Sharia aims to punish.
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Faiz
You don’t think that people who steal out of “pure greed” and “disregard for other people’s well-being” are also sick in some way? Would normal people spitefully disregard other people’s well-being? You have just acknowledged that butchering living people who steal has no moral foundation whatsoever.
If you really need someone to explain the meaning of the word civilized to you, I will be happy to oblige. From the dictionary…
– bring (a place or people) to a stage of social development considered to be more advanced.
– polite and good-mannered.
Chopping off people’s limbs is certainly not advanced, especially since we now know – thanks to science and rational people, and not Islamic theology – that people’s behaviour may be due to circumstance that they are completely unconscious of like chemical imbalances, poor nutrition, or even being dropped when they were kids. Oh, and lopping off limbs is certainly not polite or good-mannered.
Hope that helps. 😉
“How exactly do you know that Islam is a “7th century superstition”? What would constitute evidence, in your view, that Islam is not a “superstition” but the legitimate truth?”
Well, it would have helped if your god had told his 7th century followers some of the science behind criminal behaviour that has only been discovered by non-muslim scientists 14 centuries later that could have saved a lot of people extreme pain and physical handicap. Why didn’t your god explain in detail the chemical and biological processes that influence behaviour and mental outlook that could have averted unnecessary mutilations instead of relying on disbelieving science researchers to produce this knowledge centuries later?
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Oh Johnnie, Johnnie…how desperate are you man?
Can you prove that every single criminal, whether he/she was a thief, a murderer etc. was “sick” in some way? And how do you define “sick”? Does it mean that the person did not have control of his/her mental faculties and could not tell right from wrong? Or does it mean that the person’s behavior is disgusting by societal standards? You keep getting vaguer and vaguer… 😉
As for your dictionary definition of the word “civilize” (taken from here, I assume: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O999-civilize.html), note the key word:
“- bring (a place or people) to a stage of social development CONSIDERED to be more advanced.”
So, in effect, your definition (which you resisted giving for all this time) doesn’t actually answer the question! Who “considers” what is “civilized”? You’re back to square one again! Ouch!
You keep embarrassing yourself with your repeated failure to determine who determines what is “civilized”. Maybe its time to find yourself a new hobby?
Your expressions of cultural chauvinism are part of the same pathology that has resulted in crusades and colonization by western nations, and the deaths of millions of people as a result.
By the way, my God did indeed make it clear that people’s mental problems are grounds for sparing them any punishment. That is why the Sharia is so much more complex and advanced than ignorant buffoons like you assume.
Also, there is other evidence that Islam is the truth, and not some “superstition” as you laughably claim. An honest researcher would at least have done the requisite research before making such an assumption. Here is just one piece of evidence:
Did you know that the Arabian peninsula was not always a desert? Well, this was a fact that geologists only recently discovered, but the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) already knew this fact 1400 years ago:
Sahih Al-Jami, Number 7429 – “…The Hour will not come till…the land of the Arabs will return to be meadows and rivers.”
An article from the University of Oxford reported in 2012 the following:
“Satellite images have revealed that a network of ancient rivers once coursed their way through the sand of the Arabian Desert, leading scientists to believe that the region experienced wetter periods in the past” (http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2012-04-30-ancient-network-rivers-and-lakes-found-arabian-desert).
Also, according to an article by Patricia Groves of the “Abu Dhabi Islands Archaeological Survey”:
“The picture that emerges of life six to eight million years ago in the late Miocene period is of a thickly vegetated land, abounding in wildlife, not unlike present day East Africa. There was evidence of wide rivers flowing through what must have been well-wooded savannah plains” (http://www.adias-uae.com/feature.html#rivers)
She also describes:
“…a time in the history of the Arabian peninsula only seven thousand years ago during the Arabian Neolithic period when the inhabitants were not just hunting and fishing, but also herding domesticated animals, including goats and sheep. The evidence allowed a remarkable glimpse into this pastoral community, showing that a broad economic base supported what appears to be a relatively comfortable lifestyle.”
How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the land of Arabia (which has been an unforgiving desert land for thousands of years) was once a land of “meadows and rivers”?
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Faiz
It has been nice to watch you squirm but I am extremely disturbed that you are so rabidly fervent about cutting off people’s limbs such that you would justify mutilating obviously unhealthy offenders. If you can show me how brutal limb amputation is more advanced morally, socially, and philosophically, than more compassionate punishments then I would like to hear your arguments.
Dubious claims of esoteric knowledge don’t justify barbaric punishments….
“How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the land of Arabia (which has been an unforgiving desert land for thousands of years) was once a land of “meadows and rivers”?”
The rational answer is that there were probably legends that predate Islam that were passed down orally from the people who were alive at the time and these stories became legends and superstitions. No need to resort to superstitious reasoning here.
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Faiz
Plus, why didn’t your god provide detailed info on how to build desalination machinery and sophisticated irrigation so that the 7th century Arabs could have reclaimed the deserts themselves? Air conditioning would have been nice too. Again, it has taken the scientific knowledge and reasoning of disbelievers to make Arabia liveable enough that it can support the populations it has.
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John your bias and prejudice against theism is quite evident. Islam has its Divine Law which will not change because of your unbelief. End of.
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Paul
I think that is grossly unfair. I am against the idea that mutilating people is some kind of advanced moral behaviour. I think that deep down most muslims would probably agree and would never – ever – out of their own volition commit such acts.
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John
Face it: you mock and denigrate God and the religion of Islam.
“why didn’t your god provide detailed info on how to build..” etc. etc.
You arrogantly assume (in a view typical of the superiority complex of too many Westerners) that Muslims secretly want to abandon the Shariah. LOL
In point of fact numerous opinion polls the world over clearly indicate the remarkable fidelity of Muslims to God and His Divine Law.
The west can learn much from the shariah.
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Paul
“The west can learn much from the shariah.”
Like what?
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Justice. Mercy.
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Paul
Oh dear…..
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typical Western gut reaction. Yet 1.7 billion Muslims see God’s law as superior to man-made law with its injustice and lack of mercy.
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Take murder for example.
In the USA a convicted murderer can spend decades locked up in a small cage awaiting execution. Very inhumane.
In Islam there are several possibilities:
The Qur’an legislates the death penalty for murder, but forgiveness and compassion are strongly encouraged. The murder victim’s family is given a choice to either insist on the death penalty, or to pardon the perpetrator and accept monetary compensation for their loss (Quran 2:178).
So the murderer can be forgiven.
In the USA there is a one size fits all punishment that is often cruel in its application as I have said.
God’s Law combines both justice and mercy. A superior system.
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http://muslimmatters.org/2016/03/27/what-we-can-learn-from-the-butcher-of-bosnia/
enjoy
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😦
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Paul
“So the murderer can be forgiven.”
That’s not an objective law – and far from just. So if the families of the victims of the Yorkshire ripper had just forgiven him and accepted some cash – or cheques, perhaps – he would have been freed to kill again? How is that justice? The families of victims often do forgive offenders, but it is not up to them to decide whether such an offender is fit, willing, or able to re-enter society.
Superstition blinds you.
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John
You said;
Paul
“So the murderer can be forgiven.”
That’s not an objective law – and far from just. So if the families of the victims of the Yorkshire ripper had just forgiven him and accepted some cash – or cheques, perhaps – he would have been freed to kill again? How is that justice? The families of victims often do forgive offenders, but it is not up to them to decide whether such an offender is fit, willing, or able to re-enter society.
Superstition blinds yo
I say;
“willing and able to re-enter society” is different from forgiveness.
Some murderers who served their sentence come out of prison and murder again.
Some rapists come out of prison and rape again.
What is the solution here.
To kill a murderer so that he does not repeat it again and also serve as deterrent to those who will do that.
You John and others are the same people strongly against capital punishment. Now, you are against forgiveness to a person who sincerely repent for his actions. And your solution of putting people in jail does not solve the problem either but makes it worse.
People commit a lot of violence in jail and it does not solve problems but makes it worse.
The Islamic law says forgiveness is granted to anyone who sincerely repent. The families of a murdered victim have to forgive him based on sincere repentance first before any other things.
People do commit sin and sincerely repent and away from that again and that is what Islam preaches to give the person a chance.
No one will like forgive a murderer or a rapist who commits that act twice or more but God will do that may be that is his last and he will turn to God completely with all his heart and stop any sin and call others to God and stop their sinful acts. We see worse people in life turning completely peaceful and preaching sincerely against what they used to do.
Capital punishment is a deterrent to solve the “willing and able to re-enter society” not a prison sentence. You are against that and so now what is the best solution? as the prison system does not solve the problem.
US is the worst crime country when it comes to murder, rape, robbery, stealing, drug, cocain, lies, sex, etc. and just name any social vices and you will find them in the west.
Compare to Saudi Arabia and other countries which implement some sort of Islamic law but not all and has less vices compared to the Western countries. So the deterrent is better than the prison system. The prison system has failed and people are calling for a different system. They must adopt the Islamic System because God created us and knows what is likely to solve our problem but not liberal or secular thinking.
Thanks.
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John
You said;
John
March 27, 2016 • 11:49 am
Paul
I think that is grossly unfair. I am against the idea that mutilating people is some kind of advanced moral behaviour. I think that deep down most muslims would probably agree and would never – ever – out of their own volition commit such acts.
I say;
Mutilating people? In the West and their law, Christian law, Jewish law etc. all have agreed to punish a criminal by killing the criminal but not letting him loose. Why are you not against that?
The prison system has failed because there are more criminals mutilating other people. Examples are murderers, rapists, drug addicts and traffickers who will kill anyone including their gang members, prostitution, child abuse, child pornography, adultery, fornication, teenage pregnancies, single mother, armed robbery, suicides, homicides, gang members, pimps,cheating, abuse, etc. and any vice you can think of in the Western countries especially the US.
Criminals do mutilate other people daily. What is your solution John?
Islamic solution is to mutilate the person back or forgive him if he sincerely repents. If the person is insane, he must be set free without any punishment and sent to asylum.
Prison system has failed as it increased all the above cancer but is reduced to some extent at some countries that uses some form of Sharia law.
In Saudi Arabia, some shop owners will not close their stores to attend prayers with all their monies, gold etc. intact.
You said;
John
March 27, 2016 • 8:57 am
Faiz
Plus, why didn’t your god provide detailed info on how to build desalination machinery and sophisticated irrigation so that the 7th century Arabs could have reclaimed the deserts themselves? Air conditioning would have been nice too. Again, it has taken the scientific knowledge and reasoning of disbelievers to make Arabia liveable enough that it can support the populations it has.
I say;
Our God did provide knowledge to us all and irrigation and desalination systems started and updated in the Muslim world if you read history.
VERY BRIEF SUMMARY. Because it is a big topic which I cannot cover here but I advice you to read history before attacking Islam.
-Spain under Muslims with water, irrigation, light, learning etc. and the West learnt and got most technology from them.
-Salahudin engineered a water technology which is still in use today and modified and improved for the current water systems.
-Today’s engineers, technologists etc, are not Christians alone. I am a Muslim and a technologist because knowledge is not confined to Christians alone. It is for all of us. I did not learn my technology from a White man evangelical Christian who thinks his race and religion is superior than anyone else.
-Steve Jobs is a SON of a Syrian Arab not a son of a white evangelical Christian.
-Jawed Karim, a founder and developer of youtube is a son of a Muslim engineer from Bangledesh and not a Son of White evangelical Christian who thinks his race and religion is superior than anyone else.
-The founder and engeneer of Sun Microsystems is an Indian from Indian who migrated to the US.
To cut things short, most engineers who are working at microsoft, apple, google etc. are Muslims and non white evangelical Christians and Bill Gates will testify to that.
Most Doctors and scientists are Muslims and some of them are not White evangelical Christians of the USA who thinks their race and religion is superior to others that led their ancestors to kill others and shed blood.
I swear God, my brother is a medical doctor and a specialist and he is a Muslim by birth and all my siblings have their degrees in other fields and they are Muslims by birth.
There were Christians and Jews in the Arabian Peninsula before Islam and before our prophet. And I will put your words in your own mouth John.
————-
Plus, why didn’t your god(Jesus) provide detailed info on how to build desalination machinery and sophisticated irrigation so that the 7th century Arabs could have reclaimed the deserts themselves? Air conditioning would have been nice too. Again, it has taken the scientific knowledge and reasoning of disbelievers(and disbelievers alike) to make Arabia liveable enough that it can support the populations it has.
————–
Thanks.
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correction
(and believers alike)
Johns question to us that I put in his own mouth with brackets to ask him the same question must be this;
John
There were Jews and Christians in the desert of Arabian Peninsula before our Prophet and before he proclaimed Islam.
John, question to you.
Plus, why didn’t your god(Jesus) provide detailed info on how to build desalination machinery and sophisticated irrigation so that the 7th century Arabs could have reclaimed the deserts themselves? Air conditioning would have been nice too. Again, it has taken the scientific knowledge and reasoning of disbelievers(and believers alike) to make Arabia liveable enough that it can support the populations it has.
Thanks.
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Oh, John John, it has been very fun watching you struggle to answer my questions and your baseless rants about what is “civilized” and what is not. But don’t worry, your refusal to answer my questions is not causing me any hurry. Muslims are taught to be patient and I can wait a while for you to come to your senses and admit that your personal opinions about Islamic law are irrelevant and based entirely on your own cultural chauvinism. 😉
Now, before I respond to the new points, let me repeat the unanswered questions (hey, this is fun!):
1. Can you prove that every single criminal, whether he/she was a thief, a murderer etc. was “sick” in some way? And how do you define “sick”? Does it mean that the person did not have control of his/her mental faculties and could not tell right from wrong? Or does it mean that the person’s behavior is disgusting by societal standards? You keep getting vaguer and vaguer…
2. As for your dictionary definition of the word “civilize” (taken from here, I assume: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O999-civilize.html), note the key word:
“- bring (a place or people) to a stage of social development CONSIDERED to be more advanced.”
So, in effect, your definition (which you resisted giving for all this time) doesn’t actually answer the question! Who “considers” what is “civilized”? You’re back to square one again! Ouch!
3. Finally, you have not answered my question about the death penalty. You gave a very vague answer and have continued to dodge the question, and I suspect I know why.
So these are the unanswered questions. You better get busy!
As for your laughable response to the Prophet Muhammad’s amazing knowledge of Arabia’s geographic history, I am not surprised at all. You will note how you responded simply with an unproven assumption. How typical of skeptics! You spare yourself the burden of showing evidence for any of your assumptions and make foolish remarks instead.
Here is why your claims of an “oral tradition” fail. According to one such “oral tradition”, Arabia was always a desert from the very beginning of creation. According to the myth:
“…as soon as the world had been made, one of the angels pointed out to the Almighty that he had forgotten to put any sand on Earth, a grave omission, given that human beings would be deprived for ever of being able to walk along the seashore, massaging their weary feet and being in direct contact with the ground. […]
God despatched [sic] the Archangel Gabriel with a huge bag of sand so that he could spread it wherever it was needed.
Gabriel created the beaches and the riverbeds, then made his way back to Heaven, carrying with him the surplus sand, but the Enemy – always watchful, always keen to spoil the Almighty’s work – made a hole in the bag, which burst, spilling all its contents. This happened in a place now known as Arabia, and nearly the whole region was transformed into a vast desert” (http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2008/01/23/daily-message-181/).
Notice how this myth has not been retained in the Islamic tradition. And Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not incorporate it into his version (if we assume that he invented everything). Why did he not believe as the other Arabs believed? How did he know that Arabia had not always been a desert? That’s one more question for you to answer!
Finally, here is more evidence for you to struggle with:
“Narrated Abu Huraira: One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came… […] Then he further asked, “When will the Hour be established?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents. 1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master. 2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah. […]” (Sahih Bukhari, 2:47).
It refers to a time when “the shepherds of black camels” (i.e. the Arabs) will compete in the construction of tall buildings. To explain the meaning of the hadith, the famous scholar An-Nawawi stated:
“The people of badī’a (the desert Bedouins) and their like are indigent. There will come a time in which they become rich and build such structures to demonstrate their wealth.”
In other words, the hadith prophesied that the once poor Arabs (Bedouins) would reach a state of immense wealth and use it in competing with each other in the construction of tall buildings. This leads to the question of whether the once poor Bedouins have indeed reached such a state of financial strength. As any person can see with the recent boom in architectural projects in the Middle East, the answer to this question is a definitive “yes”.
Currently, the tallest building in the world is the Burj Khalifa in Dubai. However, Saudi Arabia has plans to build the “Kingdom Tower”, which will be even taller and is scheduled to be completed by 2018. All of these projects are financed by the enormous wealth of the ruling families of these nations, and yet these families have a heritage which is much more modest. The former ruler of Dubai, for example, Sheik Rashid Bin Saeed Al-Maktoum once stated:
“My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son will ride a camel…”
The current ruler of Dubai, under whose reign the Burj Khalifa was built and completed, is Mohammed Bin Rashid Al Maktoum, the third son of Rashid Bin Saeed Al Maktoum. But the fact is that despite having enormous wealth and power, he is only two generations removed from a simpler Bedouin life, where luxury cars would have been an unattainable dream!
Similarly, the Al-Saud family, which has ruled the modern state of Saudi Arabia since the early 20th century, also has more humble origins. Before the discovery of oil, the Al-Saud family did not command the fabulous wealth it now has. In the mid-20th century, before the discovery of oil, Saudi Arabia was among the poorest and most undeveloped nations in the world. But since the discovery of oil, Saudi Arabia has been transformed into one of the wealthiest nations in the world. It is no wonder then that the Saudi royal family has made plans to build the tallest man-made structure in the world! There is no doubt that this prophecy has come true.
So there you go. Your blind skepticism has deceived you, I’m afraid! Poor, poor John…
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Excellent responses by brother Intellect! Jazak Allah Khair.
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Intellect
“People commit a lot of violence in jail and it does not solve problems but makes it worse.”
So there are no prisons in Muslim countries that have sharia legal systems? There were no prisons during the Caliphate eras? Offenders were either killed or had body parts chopped off?
I don’t see why you think that repentance and the opportunity to turn your life around doesn’t exist in our legal system – prisoners are paroled for good behaviour after which they have an opportunity to change their lives. Furthermore, prisoners receive free education if they want it, free medical care, counselling, psychological treatment, can learn a trade and have access to libraries, the internet, religious services and fitness programs.
“Compare to Saudi Arabia and other countries which implement some sort of Islamic law but not all and has less vices compared to the Western countries.”
The problem here is that you are allowing your superstition to cloud your reasoning. Countries like Japan, Norway, Finland, New Zealand and South Korea ( and others) have impressively low crime rates and don’t resort to mutilation to achieve it. They also don’t rely on dubious appeals to divine authority and superstitious awe for what are clearly flawed and brutal religious laws that were made up by ignorant nomads who needed divine revelation to tell them which hand to wipe themselves with after toileting in a hole in the ground.
Sorry if I sound unimpressed with your sharia – it’s just that it is unimpressive. As you can see, low crime rates are possible in developed countries without the need to impose archaic superstitious laws on everyone.
Faiz
Oh Faiz, Faiz. I had truly hoped that you would offer some rational reasons for why you think chopping off thieves’ hands for stealing a couple of pairs of gold earrings is a more civilized practice than just fining someone, or giving them a short prison sentence in a low security institution, but all you can do is repeat your mantra about me being vague.
To answer your question 1 above, I never said that every criminal is sick in some way. Question 2 is resolved if you can provide a rational, non-superstitious reason why you think mutilating offenders should be CONSIDERED civilized, and question 3 – I haven’t been vague.
Also, the Burj Khalifa was designed and built using technologies that your god saw fit not to reveal in the 7th century, but were, in fact, developed by the infidel. Let’s be honest, these cities in the new money kingdoms on the peninsular are gaudy imitations of American skyscraper skylines and hardly a fitting homage to what is supposed to be the revealed word of god.
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Johnnie, Johnnie…you continue to embarrass yourself. Vague answers and pathetic excuses for your silly cultural chauvinism and skepticism are all you can muster? I am so disappointed that this is all you can do to defend your views!
Even your foolish response to the correct prophecy that Muhammad (peace be upon him) made reflects your arrogant views of cultural superiority! Even if they were “gaudy imitations of American skyscraper skylines”, what difference does it make? Did the prophecy come true or not? You can run from the truth, but the truth remains nonetheless.
Of course, I am not at all surprised by your foolish responses. This is typical of skeptics. The fact is that you always demand “evidence” but when the evidence appears in front of you, you are so taken aback that all you can muster is pathetic excuse-making. Skeptics wouldn’t believe even if an angel came down from the sky and bopped them right on the head! Oh well, I guess you will believe on the Day of Judgement. Of course, it will be too late by then!
Unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each in the construction of tall buildings?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
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Mike
You said;
Also, the Burj Khalifa was designed and built using technologies that your god saw fit not to reveal in the 7th century, but were, in fact, developed by the infidel. Let’s be honest, these cities in the new money kingdoms on the peninsular are gaudy imitations of American skyscraper skylines and hardly a fitting homage to what is supposed to be the revealed word of god.
I say;
Skyscrapers were built in the past before America was created. Thousands of years ago, Egyptians were building tall pyramids. Technological advancement was not there but they have knowledge to build tall structures.
Thinking advancement is America is the most dumb thing to think.
I can also say America’s structures in Manhattan was imitated from Egypt. So the technology of tall structures comes close from Burj Khalifa itself but not from America.
It is disingenuous to think any thing advanced was developed by white evangelical Christians who think their religion and race is superior than others.
I gave you evidence that is not the case, but knowledge is from God to all humanity and a designer, engineer, architect of a skyscraper can be any body but not only white evangelical Christian alone who thinks his race and religion is better than anyone else.
Please re-read my response to you above for fair dialog. I provided a lot of evidences. You have to provide a proof that it is only a white evangelical Christian and no one else can design, build and engineer a skyscraper.
Did you read my response? ok. I will repeat question. Jews, Christians were living in the Arabian Peninsula before our prophet was born and brought Islam. Why did your God or their God not provide them skyscrapers?
You said;
Oh Faiz, Faiz. I had truly hoped that you would offer some rational reasons for why you think chopping off thieves’ hands for stealing a couple of pairs of gold earrings is a more civilized practice than just fining someone, or giving them a short prison sentence in a low security institution, but all you can do is repeat your mantra about me being vague.
I say;
You have to honestly learn Islam or asks questions before bringing your criticism. We do not attack Christianity here as some may claim. We just ask questions and prove that there are certain illogical thinking we may see.
First time stealing will not have a hand chopped but arrangement to return the item to the owner followed by a strong warning about the consequences. Second is also followed by warning and in all cases. The third will qualify for deterrent to those who will go stealing.
A poor person will not be punished or hand chopped but the community has to help him to get a job or if he can not work, there is a welfare system in islamic community that is why we pay a lot of different taxes.
You said;
Sorry if I sound unimpressed with your sharia – it’s just that it is unimpressive. As you can see, low crime rates are possible in developed countries without the need to impose archaic superstitious laws on everyone
I say;
Do not get carried away because the crime rate is lower than USA then you consider the rate low.
There are still more crimes in those countries but because it is lower than the US, Australia, Canada and England etc. does not make the crimes there is acceptable.
Crimes should be very low for anybody to get on his business.
Sharia Law is there to make crime as low as possible for people to carry their business without fear or favor.
Thanks.
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Mike?? His ghost still stalks this blog?
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You are right Paul. I forgot to address John as Mike.
Thanks.
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Faiz
Faiz, Faiz, the only question that remains unanswered is how you plan to illustrate how mutilating people for stealing gold earrings is civilized. I still maintain that it is barbaric and savage and that a fine or light sentence in a low security facility is far more advanced morally and socially. Continuing to appeal to extremely dubious claims of prophecy doesn’t cut it – superstition isn’t an argument. Besides there are all kinds of non-muslim psychics and non-psychics who make remarkably accurate predictions about future events – why should I believe that your particular brand of superstitious nonsense is the civilized one?
Intellect
“You have to provide a proof that it is only a white evangelical Christian and no one else can design, build and engineer a skyscraper.”
Not sure what you are talking about, I never said anything even remotely like that – the technologies that permit rational human beings to build these kinds of structures did not come from any revelation from your god. He needed disbelievers to come up with the science and technology to build the Burj Khalifa.
“Sharia Law is there to make crime as low as possible for people to carry their business without fear or favor.”
Sharia law is completely unnecessary and primitive and the countries I listed (and there are many more) have extremely low rates of crime without threatening to mutilate their citizens. That makes your superstitious law obsolete and uncivilized and makes one wonder why your god never told his 7th century nomadic followers how to do the same. Didn’t he know that it was possible for societies to have low crime rates without brutally savage punishments?
Paul
Who is Mike?
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John
You said;
Not sure what you are talking about, I never said anything even remotely like that – the technologies that permit rational human beings to build these kinds of structures did not come from any revelation from your god. He needed disbelievers to come up with the science and technology to build the Burj Khalifa.
I say;
I am a Muslim and you claim I am not rational human being because my scripture did not teach me the technology to build skyscrapers.
Show me where your God taught you the technology to build a a skyscraper in your scripture? If you are not able to tell then you are a white evangelical Christian who thinks his religion and race is superior than any one without proof.
I told you skyscrapers were built before the US was created and you did not read that. I keep asking you Jews and Christian were in Arabian Peninsula before our Prophet was born. Why did their God not teach them the technology to build a skyscraper and you cannot answer.
You are white evangelical Christian who thinks your race and your scripture makes you superior in anything and that will make you look down upon others as inferior and start treating them bad like KKK.
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/03/27/let-us-condemn-all-extremism/
You give them example of non white evangelicals who are technologists, innovators, engineers, researchers, architects, designers etc. the kkk will still look down upon you and will not recognize your knowledge unless you are white evangelical Christians. It is pathetic.
Science and Technology
Black, White, Arab, Hindu, Jew, Hispanic, atheist, Christian, Muslim to list a few and all humanity are being blessed with knowledge to have architects, engineers, designers, innovators to create anything including skyscrapers but a racist John thinks it is only his race, scripture and religion that has the only capability despite proving names of Arabs and Muslim innovators. It is racist for you to say there is no Muslim or Arab architect or engineer despite my proof to you that I am a technologist and a Muslim and my brother is a Medical specialist and a Muslim.
Yes, you have to prove that only white evangelical Christians are the only people who can build skyscrapers and show us the technology to build a skyscraper in their scripture. i know God has given technology to all mankind and any one can be an architect, engineer, technologist etc. to build a skyscraper.
You said no, the technology is limited to certain group of people in their scripture, so you have to prove to us where in their scripture of the white evangelical Christian scripture can we find the technology to build a skyscraper.
You think kkk John and that is scary.
Thanks.
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John
You said;
Sharia law is completely unnecessary and primitive and the countries I listed (and there are many more) have extremely low rates of crime without threatening to mutilate their citizens. That makes your superstitious law obsolete and uncivilized and makes one wonder why your god never told his 7th century nomadic followers how to do the same. Didn’t he know that it was possible for societies to have low crime rates without brutally savage punishments?
I say;
Are you happy with statistics like this?
Crime rates in Seoul, South Korea
Level of crime 12.26 Very Low
Problem people using or dealing drugs 9.34 Very Low
Problem property crimes such as vandalism and theft 12.35 Very Low
Problem violent crimes such as assault and armed robbery 11.45 Very Low
Problem corruption and bribery 24.09 Low
Source: https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=B_f4VqKIJsqC8QfG3LqgDw&gws_rd=ssl#q=crime+rate+in+Korea
No wonder you consider 11.45 percent violent crime as ok. and it is not necessary for deterrent. Do you know how many people will be mutilated each year with this 11.45 percent violent crime?
I know you do not care about the mutilated bodies to be suffered on these violent crimes but interested in attacking sharia law to deter people to reduce this violent crimes.
Deterrent must always be there to make crime as low as it could be. 11.4 percent violent crime a year can mutilate a lot of bodies John. Using Sharia to make it more lower as it can be is good and must not be condemned because you do not like Islam.
Thanks.
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Intellect
“You are white evangelical Christian who thinks your race and your scripture makes you superior in anything and that will make you look down upon others as inferior and start treating them bad like KKK.”
What on earth are you talking about? The countries I mentioned that have humane legal systems that do not mutilate their citizens were not all white, and certainly a stretch to call them Christian countries. How is it that the countries I cited have incredibly low crime rates yet, do not have superstitious nonsense underpinning their legal systems?
I genuinely would like to know why you think that your god was unable to reveal the secret to lowering crime in societies without cutting off people’s hands and feet? If it is possible to have low crime rates without the savagery of sharia, then I think we pursue those avenues.
Sharia is backward and barbaric and is completely unnecessarily brutal and has no place in civilized societies.
And please stop the butthurt – I am not a racist, I’m just trying to find out how on earth any intelligent person could believe that mutilating people for stealing gold earrings is civilized.
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John
I said you are a KKK member because it is obvious only white evangelical Christian can join them and their mentality is your mentality in that their race, religion, scripture, skyscrapers, color, is superior than anyone else. You prove to KKK that you are an architect, engineer, doctor, a kkk will tell you you are a fake because your color, religion, scripture, language, skyscraper is not like him, so your scripture has no technology to build a skyscraper but his scripture has technology to build a skyscraper without proof.
You said;
What on earth are you talking about? The countries I mentioned that have humane legal systems that do not mutilate their citizens were not all white, and certainly a stretch to call them Christian countries. How is it that the countries I cited have incredibly low crime rates yet, do not have superstitious nonsense underpinning their legal systems?
I say;
I cited example of one of the countries and 11.45 percent violent crime can mutilated thousands of people a year and it is not acceptable by God and so shariah as a deterrent must always be there as God law to those who accept it to further reduce the mutilation of human bodies by violent crimes a year.
You can call shariah whatever you want, we believe it is a law of God and can reduce mutilation of bodies by violent crime and the countries you listed have percentages which can cause thousands and hundreds of people to be mutilated by violent crime. Sharia is there as a deterrent.
You seem worried about sharia which is a deterrent and might not be used in certain cases than the 11.45 percent violent crime that can mutilate thousands of people.
Thanks.
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John
You said;
And please stop the butthurt – I am not a racist, I’m just trying to find out how on earth any intelligent person could believe that mutilating people for stealing gold earrings is civilized.
I say;
You do not have to say you are a racist. Anyone who reads your comments will know you are a member of kkk in the highest order. I dialog with Christians everyday especially madmanna and Ken Temple and they clearly are not members of kkk.
I said when a person steals first and he was caught no punishment but warning about the consequence if he does it again. If he steals because he can afford food, he will not be punished but rehabilitated because Muslims pay different taxes for those purposes. If the person is insane no punishment but free to be rehabilitated.
ra
If it is deliberate for the second time still no punishment but warning. Third time deliberate stealing must be punished to serve as deterrent to would be violent criminals.
11.45 violent criminals will mutilate thousands of bodies and is not accepted by God. Any explanation is not good to you because your forward bias against Islam.
WE HAVE ARABS AND MUSLIM ARCHITECTS WHO CAN BUILD A SKYSCRAPER. Ancient skyscraper or a tallest structure is in Arab and majority Muslim lad of Egypt. That is where civilization started and not in the USA. A racist and a member of kkk thinks only his color, religion and scripture can build a skyscraper but no one else.
Thanks.
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Intellect
“You can call shariah whatever you want, we believe it is a law of God and can reduce mutilation of bodies by violent crime and the countries you listed have percentages which can cause thousands and hundreds of people to be mutilated by violent crime. Sharia is there as a deterrent.”
Your god could have reduced crimes without savage punishments – why didn’t he? Are the FInns, Japanese, Koreans, and New Zealanders greater than your god? They achieved low crime rates humanely which is something that your god couldn’t do.
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Intellect
“You do not have to say you are a racist. Anyone who reads your comments will know you are a member of kkk in the highest order.”
That is incredibly dumb. Any rational person – inapplicable to yourself and Faiz – can read that I oppose the barbaric legal system you call sharia. Obviously, you are trying to derail the discussion because the butchery of your sharia system has been exposed. Please explain how mere human beings have been able to create societies with low crime rates without turning people into keema?
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I said the percentages still produce thousands of mutilated bodies a year through violent crime so our God says his law is necessary to reduce violent crimes for mutilating thousands of bodies no matter the percentages of violent crimes.
Our God do not deal in percentages on this issue because even less percentage can produce thousands or hundreds of mutilations through violent crimes a year and our God want the deterrent to be there.
I think lets leave it here because it is repetition. The Quran says I should tell you, you unto your religion and me unto my religion.
Thanks.
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here is what this “barbaric” law said
Narrated AbuHurayrah: “The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you inflicts a beating, he should avoid striking the face. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud), Number 4478)”
quote:
Boxer Nick Blackwell is in an induced coma after a brutal bout with Chris Eubank Jr who said: “The ref should’ve stopped it earlier.”
Blackwell, 25, collapsed after the British middleweight title fight was stopped in the 10th round on Saturday night.
His eye had become horrifically swollen during the clash at Wembley Arena, seen live on Channel 5 by millions of viewers.
Eubank Jr’s dad, former champ Chris Eubank , even stepped into the ring to warn his son of the danger Blackwell was in as the fight was allowed to go on.
He was overheard saying he “didn’t get why” it was not being stopped, adding: “If he doesn’t stop it and we keep beating him like this he’s getting hurt.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/boxing/chris-eubank-jr-says-ref-7638974
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Oh John John. This is so much fun, seeing how you struggle to answer my questions and the pathetic excuses you make! But don’t worry! Your failure, or rathet, you inability to answer actually speaks volumes by itself! Plus, it makes my job alot easier. I can just keep repeating the unanswered questions. 😉
Unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each in the construction of tall buildings?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
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Intellect,
You have misunderstood the data on the Numbeo web site that you used for your illustration. The numbers are not percentages, they are indexes calculated from a visitor survey. For the crime level figures, the lower the number the better, for the safety figures, the higher the number the better. They explain their methodology here:
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/indices_explained.jsp
Comparing South Korea with Saudi Arabia, SK comes out safer than SA:
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=South+Korea&country2=Saudi+Arabia
Nearly half of SK,s population are non religious, the rest mainly Buddhist or Christian.
Perhaps you might like to reconsider the conclusions you drew from the data and post a correction.
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Faiz,
Referring to you point 3 (about Arabia’s past geological history), if I can show that there is a plausible non supernatural explanation will you accept that your evidence does not support the proposition that “Islam is the truth”?
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Faiz
Oh Faiz, Faiz, Faiz, Faiz, repeating the same comments over and over does not make them true – just like being able to memorize your superstitious holy book does not mean it is divinely inspired. Your questions have been answered, now please answer mine – show me how savagely mutilating people who steal a pair of gold earrings is more civilized than a fine or short-term sentence in a low security facility would be?
It is not hard – just present your case that your primitive world view is more civilized than, let’s say a society that utilizes reason and rational thought to discover the bio-chemical, and psychological conditions that lead to crime and adjust the brutality of their punishment accordingly. That’s why I think barbaric mutilations of offenders is uncivilized – we have too much knowledge about human drives and behaviours that your superstitious law didn’t even come close to addressing to view such archaic 7th century ignorance as anything more than that.
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robert2016
“here is what this “barbaric” law said
Narrated AbuHurayrah: “The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you inflicts a beating, he should avoid striking the face. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud), Number 4478)”
I guess you didn’t notice that gooey wad of irony flying over your head when you wrote this nonsense.
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Oh John John, still not answering my questions?
See, unlike you, I didn’t make the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so your question to me is pure nonsense!
Now if you please, answer my questions. 😉
Unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each in the construction of tall buildings?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
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Andy, I’m all ears.
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John John, your nonsense about our modern “knowledge” has already been addressed. Go back to the earlier posts and then answer my questions which you are struggling to answer. Come on, man! I know you can do it!
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Faiz,
The answer to my question is either yes or no.
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Yes, Andy, yes, in case I wasn’t clear before?
Also, if you show a more “plausible” explanation, it would only explain point #3. Other proofs, such as point #4, would remain.
So go ahead. I’m all ears. Maybe you can answer the questions that John John has struggled to answer.
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Faiz,
I’m referring to the coincidence between Australian Aboriginal myths and geographical features and events of several thousand years ago.
I give some references:
http://earthsci.org/aboriginal/Ngadjonji%20History/antquity/history2.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Euramoo
http://theconversation.com/ancient-aboriginal-stories-preserve-history-of-a-rise-in-sea-level-36010
This shows that detailed observational knowledge can be transmitted within an oral tradition over several thousand years. The ‘bag of sand’ myth you refer to is described Coelho’s web site as “one of the creation myths of the Arab people” implying others. So it is quite plausible that in 7th century Arabia, knowledge about the past thousands of years before was retained.
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Andy,
So just like John, you simply make an assumption, present no evidence, and then think that it serves as a “plausible” explanation?
I don’t deny that there were other Arab creation myths, but the fact is that neither you nor John have provided any conclusive evidence of a “plausible” reason how Muhammad (peace be upon him) knew about the past geological history of Arabia. What the Aborigines knew or didn’t know about their landscape is irrelevant here. You need to demonstrate that “knowledge about the past thousands of years before was retained” in the case of the Arabs, not just assume that it was.
Also, what is your take on the Prophet’s knowledge about Arabs competing with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
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Faiz,
“neither you nor John have provided any conclusive evidence of a “plausible” reason ”
I suspect you don’t understand the meaning of plausible. If one has conclusive evidence of something it is no longer just plausible – it is conclusive.
I’m not claiming conclusiveness here, I’m proposing an alternative naturalistic explanation. In your world view it is quite plausible to believe in supernatural explanations. In mine it is not.
Our world views differ, so the best we can do is respect that and continue to debate in a constructive way.
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John, Andy
South Korea has death penalty law that is why their crime is low. They hang civilian criminals to death. They shoot military personnel by firing squad especially for treason.
http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=South+Korea
You condemn capital punishment, so South Korea is off your list. All your listed countries have problems. I cannot research on all of them.
The bottom line is sharia is a deterrent with some leniency and other nuances and there are Islamic Jurist who make sure they go as lenient as possible and a murderer can be freed if there is proof of sincere repentance.
Thanks.
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Faiz,
Tall buildings.
Well, tall buildings were not unknown in the world of late antiquity. The hadith seems to be describing the Prophet saying “One day we’ll be rich!” (I paraphrase). I am not particularly impressed if this is claimed to be a prophecy.
Now, if he had then proceeded to describe the Burj Khalifa in Dubai in detail then I would be impressed.
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Faiz
“So just like John, you simply make an assumption, present no evidence, and then think that it serves as a “plausible” explanation?”
So, now you admit that I did, in fact, answer that question despite your dogmatic claims that I did not.
There really is nothing to see when it comes to this sorry excuse for a prophecy. There are any number of explanations – none of which would satisfy someone so profoundly in the psychological grip of their superstition as you seem to be. Here are some explanations using intelligence and reason….
1. As I stated previously (when I answered the question the first time) there were probably legends passed down orally from generations living in Arabia when it had a more temperate climate.
Some scientists (you know, the rational non-superstitious ones) believe that the Sahara and the Arabian deserts were green as recently as 5-7000 years ago. What they think might have caused this was a wobble in the earth’s rotation that brought a more temperate climate to the area. Those are time frames during which prehistoric people could have told stories about how green it used to be which evolved into legends and myths. These primitive people might have interpreted the loss of fertile land as a punishment from their pagan gods and developed a paradise myth in which the gods one day return the lush greenery to the desert.
2. Prehistoric rock art scattered around the Arabian peninsular depict herds of cattle and wild beasts. Even ignorant 7th century nomads would have been able to put 2 and 2 together and surmise that large herds of beats require large quantities of vegetation concluding that the region would have been greener in the past.
3. Common sense. Ancient people would have observed green fertile land being swallowed by the desert and vice versa, thus it would not have taken a genius to figure out that deserts ebb and flow and that what was once desert might one day become green and what was once green might become desert.
As you can see Faiz, there’s no need to appeal to superstition here. At best this prophecy was simply common sense reasoning derived from observation of the environment.
Now please to your part of the deal – show me how cutting off limbs for stealing gold earrings is more civilized than a fine or light prison sentence?
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Andy, you said:
“I suspect you don’t understand the meaning of plausible. If one has conclusive evidence of something it is no longer just plausible – it is conclusive.
I’m not claiming conclusiveness here, I’m proposing an alternative naturalistic explanation. In your world view it is quite plausible to believe in supernatural explanations. In mine it is not.
Our world views differ, so the best we can do is respect that and continue to debate in a constructive way.”
The problem is that you didn’t provide ANY proof for this “plausible” explanation, let alone conclusive proof. You seem to think that just by suggesting “an alternative naturalistic explanation”, that somehow disproves a supernatural explanation. For all you know, the supernatural explanation may be just as likely, if not more likely.
The fact remains that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was able to correctly state that Arabia was not always a desert, in spite of popular myths such as the one about the angel Gabriel and the bag of sand!
But I do agree with you that we can be respectful and debate in a constructive way. I appreciate that sentiment. Unfortunately, there are people like John John, who don’t feel that they need to show any respect and simply assert their cultural superiority to anyone they deem to be inferior.
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Andy, you said:
“Tall buildings.
Well, tall buildings were not unknown in the world of late antiquity. The hadith seems to be describing the Prophet saying “One day we’ll be rich!” (I paraphrase). I am not particularly impressed if this is claimed to be a prophecy.
Now, if he had then proceeded to describe the Burj Khalifa in Dubai in detail then I would be impressed.”
Well, no. He didn’t just say “one day we’ll be rich”, even as a paraphrase. He said that the once poor Arabs would become wealthy (which actually was fulfilled within a few decades of his death) AND that they would compete in the construction of tall buildings. This prophecy was not fulfilled until modern times.
So again, you resort to assumptions with no evidence.
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Oh Johnnie, Johnnie. What will do with you?
If you remember, you made an asinine assumption about “oral traditions” to explain the Prophet’s accurate description of Arabia’s past geological history. I refuted that claim by pointing to a specific pre-Islamic myth about Gabriel and the bag of sand. Thus, I asked you to try again, which you have been unable to do!
And now you finally work up the courage to try again and………fail miserably. To make up for your first assumption, you proceeded to……make more assumptions. WOW! Well-done!
Unfortunately, it is far more like for an “ignorant 7th century nomad” (there goes your rampant and rabid cultural chauvinism again – tsk, tsk, tsk) would just have believed in the many creation myths that were circulating for thousands of years, such as the one about the angel Gabriel and his bag of sand. Notice that in Islam, Gabriel has a central role, yet we find that the myth about his bag of sand is not found in the Islamic sources! Muhammad (peace be upon him) clearly did not believe that story. Otherwise, he would have incorporated it into his world view and he would have also assumed that Arabia was always a desert. But no! We find that he somehow knew that Arabia had not always been a desert, and that sometime in the future, it would become a fertile region again, full of “rivers and meadows”! Alhamdulillah!
Now, back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each in the construction of tall buildings?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
And if you could please learn to read, I never made the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so there is nothing for me to answer Johnnie biy! You made that claim and I have been asking you to explain how you reached that conclusion. Thus far, you have failed to work up the courage to answer me.
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John
You said;
Now please to your part of the deal – show me how cutting off limbs for stealing gold earrings is more civilized than a fine or light prison sentence?
I say;
I answered this over and over and over and over and over above and you do not seem to be satisfy about it and I said we can leave it at that.
If you do not think this is better than prison sentence then leave it at that so that you can take your believe.
1. Stealing in case the person is insane or for a poor who did it on purpose of economic reason, no punishment, no prison, no cutting of anything. The insane is sent for care and the poor is rehabilitated.
2. When one steals for no economic reason but is sane and just did it for greediness, he will not have anywhere cut but warnings in the form decided by Islamic Jurists
-The second stealings by the same person will not have anywhere cut but another harsher warning reminding the next time he steals the consequences will be more severe. The third stealing is enough to punish him as deterrent to would be stealers.
3. The prison in the west has people committing suicide, rape, cutting peoples limbs in prison by other prisoners, rape, sex, drug etc. Jail break, using tax payers money to maintain working class individuals and it does not solve the problem of stealing but to the rise.
-Some people are wrongly arrested and they commit suicide in prison by feeling disgraced and cheated. Most people are wrongly convicted and put to Jail and later DNA proves they are innocent.
A certain racist police officer arrested a beautiful young black lady for a minor driving offence in the US. He was not happy because she was smoking cigarette and wrestle her to the ground and arrested her and put her to Jail. She was so emotionally disturbed by the ordeal, while must a racist white officer arrest her by force and wrestle her to the ground, arrested and put to Jail. She committed suicide a couple of days. The white officer has now been fired.
This type of things happens everyday. Sharia would have not put anyone in jail for driving offence except may be a fine by the Islamic government because sharia never said put someone into jail because of driving offence. You do not research all these but bent on attacking Islam and sharia.
Because you prefer prison system than sharia, does not make prison system better than sharia.
Man-made law cannot be better than God law.
Listen to Mark Hanson’s explanation were a disciple of the prophet suspended some sharia law. He did not abrogate or abolished it because he has no right. Suspended it because situation does not permit implementing it.
Listen towards the end, the disciple of the prophet suspended any punishment of theft for some time because there was a situation of much need. Of course it must be implemented back, if situation improves to deter people from stealing and armed robbery.
Islamic Jurist are there to make sharia more acceptable in every situation.
Thanks.
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Brother Intellect,
Thank you for the great responses to Johnnie boy’s nonsense. Johnnie is the product of a long tradition of denigrating the “other” and passing around labels such as “civilized”, “savage”, “barbaric” and “superstition” based on his own fanciful whims. He really doesn’t no any better.
Andy, on the other hand, at least seems to carry himself with more dignity and shows respect to others.
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Andy is cool.
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Correction:
He really doesn’t KNOW any better.
That was embarrassing!
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Faiz
Thanks brother. All credit goes to Paul Williams, who spends his money, energy, resources, time etc. in maintaining this site. I cannot do that honestly but am good at commenting at work. Working while blogging and also learning other things from bloggers like you, Andy, Paul, Ken, madmanna and all good people out there seeking the truth.
I am certainly not learning from John, Radical Moderate, Sam Shamoun, Nabeel Quraish etc. as they all learn Islam from each other, then writing books and lying to be ex Muslims to collect money from Christians who want to hear their trash.
Thanks.
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Faiz
Faiz, you are very sad. People have long made predictions and projections about the future based on simple observation of their environment – even Hollywood movies do it….
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a30140/minority-report-tech-is-real-now/
You can’t accept it because this is how rational thought and reason work and those are concepts that your superstitious mentality prevents you from utilizing.
Think about this – if you can allow your brain to work without resorting to magical thinking – the Burj Khalifa is only affordable because of oil revenues. Oil has been in the ground throughout the middle east for millions of years and your god failed to reveal to his primitive 7th century followers that it was there, how to extract it, and what use it could be put to.
It required the technological advances of disbelievers to figure out how to extract this oil, process it, and develop the technologies that could utilize it. Arabia focused on superstitious sharia such that once technology advances once again – thanks to rational people who don’t think that the Burj Khalifa could be built using magical incantations – the oil that enabled its building will be an obsolete energy source. Here’s my prediction; once the world moves past its reliance on oil – and that day is near – the Burj Khalifa will fall into ruin and the sharia nuts who think it proves Islam will be left standing around holding their dicks waiting for the next non-muslim invention to latch onto that they will then claim proves ISlam.
“And if you could please learn to read, I never made the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so there is nothing for me to answer Johnnie biy!”
If you could please learn to read – unless reading comprehension is haram – I never said that you did make these claims. I think that sharia is uncivilized and barbaric, you obviously believe it is not. I think that we don’t need superstitious mutilations to create low crime societies – I cited several non-muslim societies that have incredibly low crime rates that show primitive 7th century legal systems have no place in civilized society. Most non-muslims would agree. Obviously, you want people to respect your silly superstitious law, yet most civilized people cannot because they think it is barbaric. So it would be nice if you manned-up and just explained why we are wrong. Why is chopping off hands for stealing gold earrings a more civilized punishment than a fine or short term prison sentence?
If you don’t like the way the questions is framed then simply explain how your savage law is civilized. It’s not hard.
“Notice that in Islam, Gabriel has a central role, yet we find that the myth about his bag of sand is not found in the Islamic sources! Muhammad (peace be upon him) clearly did not believe that story. Otherwise, he would have incorporated it into his world view and he would have also assumed that Arabia was always a desert. But no! We find that he somehow knew that Arabia had not always been a desert, and that sometime in the future, it would become a fertile region again, full of “rivers and meadows”! ”
LOL! Don’t make me laugh. This is pathetic. Just because one superstition was rejected doesn’t mean that this sorry excuse for a prophecy did not come from some other superstition.
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John
You said;
Think about this – if you can allow your brain to work without resorting to magical thinking – the Burj Khalifa is only affordable because of oil revenues. Oil has been in the ground throughout the middle east for millions of years and your god failed to reveal to his primitive 7th century followers that it was there, how to extract it, and what use it could be put to.
It required the technological advances of disbelievers to figure out how to extract this oil, process it, and develop the technologies that could utilize it
I say;
Before our prophet was born, Jews and Christians lived in the Arabian peninsula, why did their God not provide them technological advancement to extract oil, process it and develop the technologies that could utilize it?
You said;
It required the technological advances of disbelievers to figure out how to extract this oil, process it, and develop the technologies that could utilize it
I say;
Who are the disbelievers and who are the believers who are classified as the only group to have knowledge to extract oil?
So, a Muslim, Hindu, Latino, etc. cannot become an oil engineer? Researcher? explorer? etc.? except white evangelical Christians who have KKK membership?
ok. show me in your scripture where God has reveal to you how to extract oil and process it. If you do not have any proof, then you are repeating gibberish here over and over.
You have to provide us a proof that oil exploration is limited to a white racist evangelical Christians member of KKK like you, who think their religion, color and knowledge is superior than others.
We have Arabs, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Atheist, etc. innovators and knowledge was provided to all humanity and not racist white evangelical Christian like you who thinks God created you special than others and you are the only one who has oil technological knowledge.
I provided you with Steve Jobs who is an Arab and Jawed Karim who is a Muslim with Muslim engineer Father from Bangledesh whose innovations has impacted the whole world today and anyone is using their technological advancement today.
This another one who is a Muslim and Arab from Egypt. He is the pioneer and brain behind designing VLSIC(Very Large Scale Integrated Circuit) which is the silicon technology used in our computers, cell phones, tablets, smart tv etc. that everyone is using today.
His name is Imam Mohammed El-Masry. He is retired now but now as Imam doing khutba from Mosques to Mosques.
I googles and saw so many Arab and oil engineers including female Muslim Arabs who are oil engineers who knows the technology to do anything possible about oil. So, I do not know where your racist and hatred is coming from except from the doctrine of kkik.
You ignore it and keep being racist white evangelical Christian who thinks your religion, scripture, knowledge etc. is better than anyone else because you are a member of kkk who think so. Provide me where in your scripture says you are the only one who has knowledge to oil technology and that scripture must reveal to you how to extract oil and put it to good use.
If you cannot, then you are a serious racist and racism is the problem of this world because some people like you think they are special and others are not. You started harassing others as inferior like how you are doing to us here, despite me telling you that I am a technologist and a Muslim by birth and not an evangelical Christian member of kkk and my brother is a highly specialized doctor saving people and he is a Muslim by birth.
You still consider our brain as weak but only white evangelical Christians members of kkk like you have knowledge revealed in your scriptures without proof.
Thanks.
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i think johnny is agnostic
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John
Civilization started in Egypt. Water irrigation, treatment, tallest structures are all there before America was created. All the technology we have today is improvement upon that that is accessible to anyone be him a Malaysian Muslim or Christian, Brazilian Muslim or Brazilian Christian who use palm or sugar cane juice to process and extract fuel for their cars.
Most kkk members has not heard about palm or sugar cane process as gas for cars. It is Maylasian and Brazilian scientist who did that and not a member of kkk like you John.
Thanks.
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Intellect
You are as sad as Faiz. Your answer is to name-call?
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LOL, Johnnie. You accuse brother Intellect of “name-calling”, but all you have been doing is just that! So now, we know that not only are you an arrogant cultural chauvinist but you are also a hypocrite.
We don’t need your fake pity, Johnnie boy! You are the sad and pathetic one here! Your desperation is visible for all to see. Poor, poor Johnnie…
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Oh John, John…
So desperate are you to refute the fulfilled prophecies of an alleged “ignorant 7th century nomad” that you resort to comparing it to Hollywood’s so-called “predictions”? Those with a “rational” mind (what you claim to possess, but clearly don’t 😉 ) can see that it is not at all impressive for a movie to “predict” the many ways that technology can be used. Facial recognition and driver-less cars are not all surprising given the advances in computer technology. We live in a technological world, so coming up with ways to improve that technology is not all that difficult.
What’s laughable is that you want to compare this to how an “ignorant 7th century nomad” was able to accurately predict that his people would become wealthy and compete with each other in constructing tall buildings, something that would have been unthinkable in that time! The Arabs were not technologically advanced, even by the standards of the time. By comparison, the Byzantines and Persians had better technology by 7th-century standards. So, it would have been unthinkable to assume that:
1. The Arabs would become wealthy.
2. That they would be so wealthy that they could construct tall buildings.
By the way, here is another interesting prophecy that has clearly been fulfilled in modern times:
Sahih Ibn Hibban, 1889 – “’Abd Allah Ibn Umar related that the Prophet said: The Hour will not come until there are men and women in the streets having sexual relations with each other like donkeys do.”
We know that western societies have all liberalized their views on sexual intercourse since at least the 1960s, but a lesser known fact is that public sex is actually in some European countries, such as Holland and Denmark (http://www.romancemeetslife.com/2014/06/it-is-legal-in-amsterdam-and-copenhagen.html)
Also, in England, it is “quasi-legal” (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/world/europe/08puttenham.html?_r=0).
So here we have yet another vision of the future which an “ignorant 7th century nomad” was able to somehow describe accurately. Not only that, be he was also able to correctly deduce that with sexual liberation comes diseases:
Sunan Ibn Majah, 5:36:4019 – “It was narrated that ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar said: ‘The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) turned to us and said: ‘O Muhajirun, there are five things with which you will be tested, and I seek refuge with Allah lest you live to see them: Immorality never appears among a people to such an extent that they commit it openly, but plagues and diseases that were never known among the predecessors will spread among them.’ […]”
We know of course that this prophecy has also come true, given the emergence of AIDS and other new diseases such as Mycoplasma genitalium (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11991938/Hundreds-of-thousands-could-already-be-infected-by-new-sexual-disease.html). So here yet another prophecy that has come true!
It just keeps getting worse and worse for doesn’t it, Johnnie boy? I guess its you who is left holding his “d**k” (what’s with the penile reference – suffering from a form of penis envy are we Johnnie? 😉 )
Anyway, on to the unanswered questions 😉
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. NEW QUESTION: How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
And if you could please learn to read, I never made the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so there is nothing for me to answer Johnnie boy! You made that claim and I have been asking you to explain how you reached that conclusion. Thus far, you have failed to work up the courage to answer me.
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Faiz
Sad – but funny. Of course it would be easy to predict that Arabs would become rich – they were commanded to take other people’s stuff. No miracle there at all – Superstition 0, Reason1. Secondly the vast majority of Arabs are not rich Superstition 0, Reason 2. Thirdly, there were already rich Arab civilizations before Islam, like the Nabateans, Superstition 0, Reason 3. Arabs have been “getting rich” since they started taking people’s shit in the 7th century, yet no sign of tall buildings until rational disbelievers show up with their technology 14 centuries later. Unimpressive so far.
Here’s the funny part – they haven’t constructed tall buildings. Dİsbelievers with their haram technology have for the most part constructed tall buildings for Arabs and non-Arab workers are largely used for labour. Increasingly unimpressive.
“’Abd Allah Ibn Umar related that the Prophet said: The Hour will not come until there are men and women in the streets having sexual relations with each other like donkeys do.”
This is a great example of how superstitious thinking clouds your rational faculties. Who exactly is this “prophecy” talking about? People have been having sex in back alleys for as long as there has been street prostitution, which calls into question the “hour”. Does it mention Denmark and Amsterdam? Who, seem to be – according to your link – not having sex in the streets but in the park.
“Immorality never appears among a people to such an extent that they commit it openly, but plagues and diseases that were never known among the predecessors will spread among them.’”
This is not impressive in the least. It’s merely a scary story to impress primitive nomads in the 7th century. What great powers of prophecy does it take to dream up unknown plagues? Do you think that people in the 7th century never encountered diseases that were new? Again, superstition prevents you from thinking rationally.
New diseases occur partly because bacteria and viruses mutate or pass from species to other species – this has been the case for longer than there have been human beings. This means that “plagues and diseases unknown among the predecessors” was almost certainly observed amongst all cultures – including primitive 7th century nomads and so any suggestion that this reflects divine knowledge or prophecy is weak.
None of your bizarre prophecy superstitions in any way show that mutilating offenders is civilized – it isn’t. You seem to be conceding that it is barbaric and savage since you have been unable to show otherwise and refuse to move beyond embarrassing repetitions of previous comments, even after having acknowledged that I already answered your silly questions.
Case closed. Cutting of people’s hands is barbaric and savage and not the behaviour of civilized societies.
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Johnnie, Johnnie, you are getting sillier by the second! It’s a really quite hilarious seeing you make pathetic excuses. You know, your alleged “ignorant 7th century nomad” seemed to be able to make a lot of coincidental observations which have come true. Isn’t that strange? Yet little John tries to make his excuses.
Regardless of your accusations against Arabs, the fact is that even if they were commanded to take other’s people stuff, they were not strong enough to do so! I mean imagine a little Arab army taking on the Byzantines or the Persians! That would be like Iraqis taking on the US Army. We all know what happened there. So, for Muhammad (peace be upon him) to just assume that his people could do that would have been a stretch, and it would have seemed like an impossible dream in his time! Islam 1, Little John 0.
Second, the prophecy didn’t say that the “vast majority” would be rich. It just said that the Arabs would be rich. And they are rich. The Gulf states are among the wealthiest nations of Earth. Islam 2, Little John 0.
Third, past Arab civilizations and their wealth does not explain how Muhammad (peace be upon him) was able to accurately predict the re-emergence of Arab society as a wealthy power for the same reason he could not have foreseen that Arabs would have become strong enough to bring down two of the most powerful empires in his time. Islam 3, Little John 0.
Regarding construction of tall buildings, your desperation is once again front and center. Do you really think that wealthy people would literally build their monuments themselves? How silly are you? Do you think the pharaohs built their pyramids with their own hands or did they have master builders and slave laborers to do it for them? Think, Johnnie, think! Islam 4, Little John 0.
Regarding people having sex in the streets, the meaning is clear. They are doing it in the open without any shame or regard for privacy. Notice that in the second hadith, it says “they commit it openly”. Prostitution has been around for a long time, but people who see prostitutes don’t normally have sex with them in the open. Usually, they go to brothels, so they are hidden from public view. Also, streets or parks, the meaning is the same. People are having sex out in the open, instead of behind closed doors. Think, Johnnie, think! Islam 5, Little John 0.
Regarding the emergence of new diseases, once again your silliness is exposed. The hadith refers to the emergence of new diseases as a result of sexual immorality. Can you give me any examples of diseases that Arabs would have recognized as being due to their sexual immorality? And how would they have known? After all, according to you, they were just “ignorant 7th century nomads”! 😉 Islam 6, Little John 0. It’s a blow-out!
Isn’t it interesting how a 7th century Arab was able to make these observations, and be right about them every time? Quite a coincidence, huh? Maybe according to Little John, but probably not to people who have all their mental faculties in order. Case closed.
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. NEW QUESTION: How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
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John
You said;
Here’s the funny part – they haven’t constructed tall buildings. Dİsbelievers with their haram technology have for the most part constructed tall buildings for Arabs and non-Arab workers are largely used for labour. Increasingly unimpressive.
I say;
Who are these disbelievers constructing tall buildings? What is your proof that disbelievers are the only ones who has technology?
What is your proof that a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Arab, Chinese, etc. can not become an architect, engineer, doctor, scientist, researcher to construct tall buildings but ONLY RACIST WHITE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN KKK MEMBER HAS TECHNOLOGY IN HIS SCRIPTURE?
We need proof that it is only white evangelical Christian kkk members that has technology as they think but no one else.
Tallest buildings is in Egypt before American was discovered. Irrigation and water purification was started in Egypt and the Muslims perfected water irrigation, purification, lighting systems, science, learning, architecture, engineering before the Europeans learn from Islam
It is evil racist who thinks they are superior and consider others inferior and think they have technology in their scripture without proof to feel arrogant to persecute others.
Why persecution and killing others. John and his kkk believe they are the only group that has technology and no one else no matter how some one apart from them become innovator, they will ignore him and say the are the only ones who have technology.
By so thinking, they start killing people because it is an evil person who thinks technology is for him alone, skyscrapers is from heaven for him alone, irrigation is by him alone, medicine is for him alone. Such thinkers do not fear God but think they have right to anything good and no other human being has it.
They are the dangerous people of this world getting their ideology from satan to feel superior and start killing those the consider inferior. They will never ever be satisfied that some one can do what they can do. Those are evil people of this world who thinks technology is for them alone but no other and John is part of the evil who thinks technology is for him alone but no one else.
Thanks.
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John
You said;
Case closed. Cutting of people’s hands is barbaric and savage and not the behaviour of civilized societies.
I say;
Sharia is better than prison system where there is sex, cutting people, stabbings, drug, homosexual, suicide, murder, gang raping a new prisoner which is quite rampant, raping, cheating etc. It never stops stealing, armed robbery, drug, teenage pregnancy, murder, killings, prostitution, child pornography, Child Molestation by Church Fathers and Pastors and other citizens as well, cheating, gang members killing.
spree, nudity, porn etc.
Racist police officer keep arresting people everyday and sending them to jail by force and that has increased suicide rate in prison and some prisoners cutting other prisoners.
Society is spending more money on prison and people want a better system because so many innocent people are put in jail and dna has proved so many innocence. Sharia is better than prison system. It reduces crime while prison system increases crime and cutting of people parts either in prison or outside prison.
Rape, gang rape, murder, gang killings, homicides, suicides, sex, homosexuality, drugs, teenage pregnancy, disrespect, etc.
Some people like it this way so that they can continue to do all the above. In Sharia, John you cannot do the above.
The above listed are are not good behavior.
Sharia reduces the above to very, very low for people to live in a healthy environment.
Thanks.
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Faiz
Dear, oh dear. The butthurt is strong with this one.
“Second, the prophecy didn’t say that the “vast majority” would be rich. It just said that the Arabs would be rich. And they are rich.”
Don’t blame me that this supposed prophecy is half-assed and vague. There were rich Arab kingdoms before the 7th century and so there is no reason to believe that there would not be rich Arabs afterwards. Even primitive 7th century nomads could guess that. And remember these guys probably lived in tents or shitty little mud hovels with a hole in the corner for a toilet, so a two-storey building would have been “tall” to these guys. No magic to be seen for miles!
But thanks anyway for showing me how superstitious thinking rots the brain. A prediction that says “Arabs are going to be rich!!! And hey, they are rich!!! is a piss-poor prophecy. Again, these guys were told to take other people’s shit, of course some of them were going to get rich, so what? You cannot be so delusional that you think this is supernatural and not mere superstition? Maybe you are? And they had to wait 14 centuries for disbelievers to show up with the reason and rational thinking to build their skyscrapers for them.
“Third, past Arab civilizations and their wealth does not explain how Muhammad (peace be upon him) was able to accurately predict the re-emergence of Arab society as a wealthy power for the same reason he could not have foreseen that Arabs would have become strong enough to bring down two of the most powerful empires in his time.”
Really? He didn’t predict the re-emergence of Arab society – he predicted, according to you, that “Arabs would be rich” apparently not knowing that “Arabs” (since we are not talking about most, or all, only some) were already rich, including, perhaps, his own wife, Khadija. No magic here.
“Regarding the emergence of new diseases, once again your silliness is exposed. The hadith refers to the emergence of new diseases as a result of sexual immorality.”
You have to make a better case and not just assume that everyone has a mind as superstitious as yours. I see no reason why that hadith you quoted is referring specifically to diseases relating to sexual immorality. Again, vague superstition is not very convincing.
But none of this has anything to do with the barbaric practice of mutilating people who steal gold earrings. How is it civilized?
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John
You said;
But none of this has anything to do with the barbaric practice of mutilating people who steal gold earrings. How is it civilized?
I say;
May be you have to open a dictionary to read what barbaric means.
Sharia reduces this barbaric practice to very low while prison system increases it year after year. I think you are an armed robber and want the prison system so that you can continue to be cutting people, stabbing them, raping them and do not want South Korea’s capital punishment to hand you or sharia to kill you.
Compare what sharia and or capital punishment in South Korea reduces and Johns wish which is prison system increases.
Sharia is better than prison system where there is sex, cutting people, stabbings, drug, homosexual, suicide, murder, gang raping a new prisoner which is quite rampant, raping, cheating etc. It never stops stealing, armed robbery, drug, teenage pregnancy, murder, killings, prostitution, child pornography, Child Molestation by Church Fathers and Pastors and other citizens as well, cheating, gang members killing.
spree, nudity, porn etc.
Racist police officer keep arresting people everyday and sending them to jail by force and that has increased suicide rate in prison and some prisoners cutting other prisoners.
Society is spending more money on prison and people want a better system because so many innocent people are put in jail and dna has proved so many innocence. Sharia is better than prison system. It reduces crime while prison system increases crime and cutting of people parts either in prison or outside prison.
Rape, gang rape, murder, gang killings, homicides, suicides, sex, homosexuality, drugs, teenage pregnancy, disrespect, etc.
Some people like it this way so that they can continue to do all the above. In Sharia, John you cannot do the above.
Homosexual will like a law to allow him to continue fucking the anus of a man and the prison system guarantees that because in prison the inmates keep homosexuality to the rise. If a new inmate arrives and is not lucky, he will be gang raped because the prison guards are overstretched because the inmates are more than the guards.
Imagine John, if you steal earing and put into Jail for one week. If you are not lucky you will be raped through your anus by the inmates. It happens every day. Suicide is on it rise because prison has a lot of dirty things in there if you are not lucky to fall in that. After one suffers some of the vices in prison system, he either commits suicide or it will increase his stubbornness to kill, cut people, stabbings is common, rape, sex either in prison or when he comes out.
Some people learn homosexuality in prison, stealing in prison, rape in prison, lesbianism in prison etc. and start to practice it there and when they come out they spread the killings, cutting and stabbing people etc. and that is why the crime rate is always on the rise and the prison system does not solve the problem.
IN SHARIA WHEN YOU STEAL GOLDEN EAR RING FOR THE FIRT TIME NO PUNISHMENT. FOR THE SECOND TIME NO PUNISHMENT BUT STRONG WARNING IF THE STEALING IS FOR GREEDINESS.
The third time, something has to be done for deterrent purposes and it is better to be put in Jail for one month and get raped in your anus by prison in mates to cause your anus to cut in there and mutilate you.
May be John likes his anus to be mutilated. It is barbaric and uncivilized to allow peoples anus to be mutilated in prison and outside prison.
Thanks.
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Oh Johnnie Johnnie! You’re such a mess! What’s with the obsession with people’s penises and rear-ends? Were you sexually repressed as a child? You need help, young padawan! Maybe that last blow-out really hurt your ego, or maybe your butt?
I see your pathetic excuses-making is getting sillier and more desperate by the minute. Let me proceed in demolishing your laughable logic.
The prophecy stated that the Arabs would gain so much wealth that they would be able to compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings. You can’t seem to understand that. In that time, the Arabs were not that wealthy. It would have been a stretch to claim that a time would come when they could command such wealth. Your appeal to the Prophet’s wife Khadija (may Allah be pleased with her) is pathetic given that her wealth would not come close to say, the emperor of Byzantium. Her wealth would not have been enough to finance the construction of tall buildings.
By comparison, the Byzantines and Persians had enormous wealth that the Arabs could not come close to. So, even if Muhammad (peace be upon him) was simply making a guess, the fact is that it came true. And not once, but several times! He predicted that the Arabs would become so wealth that they could construct tall buildings, even though that would have been an odd thing to say in that time. Yet, it somehow happened. He knew that Arabia was not always a desert, even though there is no way he could have known that and only recently have geologists discovered this fact. Yet, he somehow knew. He predicted the loosening of sexual morals, which would have been unthinkable in his time. Yet, it somehow happened. He also predicted the emergence of new diseases due to sexual immorality (it means sexual immorality since the hadith refers to people doing it openly, which we know from the other hadith is referring to sex), even though he was not a doctor. Yet, it somehow happened. See a pattern there, little John? I know its hard for your feeble brain to comprehend that an “ignorant 7th century nomad” could have predicted these things so accurately, but it happened nevertheless.
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. NEW QUESTION: How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
And if you could please learn to read, I never made the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so there is nothing for me to answer Johnnie boy! You made that claim and I have been asking you to explain how you reached that conclusion. Thus far, you have failed to work up the courage to answer me. When you do try, you fail miserable and only embarrass yourself further! Boy, your butt must be really hurting! Remember, the butthurt will be with always, young padawan. The dark side, I sense in you…
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