Anthony Buzzard is a biblical scholar, unitarian Christian theologian, author and professor on the faculty of Atlanta Bible College. Follow him on twitter!
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Blogging Theology 
Dr. White and Dr. Brown answered Anthony Buzzard in a debate vs. him and another unitarian named Joseph Good.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/trinity-debate/
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But it remains the case that Christians today typically are either unfamiliar with Jesus’s teaching on how to be saved, forgiveness of sins, how we are justified before God, and the Oneness of God, or if they do know it – they ignore it.
This has been my experience with countless Christians over the years – especially missionary types.
Buzzard correctly highlights this phenomenon.
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I have answered your points on those issues for several years, but you ignore the answers.
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LOL. You have not Ken. Even in our most recent exchange you could not refute the plain meaning of Jesus’s teaching.
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/03/25/join-us-for-our-solemn-liturgy-at-3pm-and-celebrate-the-lords-saving-death-which-has-won-our-salvation/
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at Speakers Corner yesterday I asked an ordained minister (who described himself as a Calvinist) how, according to Jesus’s teaching, we are justified before God. He had a long think but could not answer.
I was simply asking him about the gospel of Jesus. In my experience of asking 100s of Christians 99% do not know he answer. Very revealing.
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“according to Jesus’s teaching, we are justified before God”
can you explain this a little?
teachings = something to do/works/deeds
are you asking how does doing the jesus manual/instruction justify one before god?
justify meaning satisfy god?
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This is the teaching I refer to:
Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
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Jesus said, “The Kingdom of God is near; therefore repent and believe in the gospel.”
Mark 1:15
the whole NT testifies and agrees with this – to “repent and believe”
= realize you are a sinner, turn from your sins, and turn to Christ and His atonement and resurrection to save you”
Jesus inspired His apostles (Peter, John, Matthew, Paul) and their associates (Mark, Luke, James, Jude, Hebrews (probably Barnabas) to write the whole NT.
The gospel is fully explained in Romans 1-8; I Corinthians 15:1-9 and many other places.
Jesus predicted His trials, death, and resurrection at least 3 times in the gospels.
They all teach the same thing, repent and believe in Christ and His work of redemption.
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Nice trick Ken!
Jesus said, “The Kingdom of God is near; therefore repent and believe in the gospel.”
= “realize you are a sinner, turn from your sins, and turn to Christ and His atonement and resurrection to save you”
may God make you honest.
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14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
compare this to those boastful “i am” statements in johns gospels. this could be good proof that the “i am” sayings are put in jesus’ mouth and were unheard of in lukes gentile community.
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ὁ θεός, ἱλάσθητί μοι τῷ ἁμαρτωλῷ. (The Greek text of the most pertinent phrase in Luke 18:13)
“O God, be propitious toward me, the sinner!” from Luke 18:13
Usually, this is translated “O God, be merciful to me, the sinner!” But Luke uses a very technical and specific term here that is a different word than the usual concepts of mercy. The mercy here is based on propitiation or the “satisfaction” or “appeasement of justice” or the “quenching of wrath”.
The same root words from “hilasmos” (propitiation) are also used in Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:5 – where it is used of the place of the atonement, the mercy seat in the holy of holies inside the temple in the OT, where the blood of the sacrificed lambs were to be sprinkled onto. See also at the end where propitiation is used in Hebrews 2:17, 1 John 2:2, and 1 John 4:10.
It is really ironic that Paul Williams tries to use Luke 18:9-14 as somehow agreeing with Islam. The Greek word for “have mercy on me” is better translated “be propitious toward me” – because mercy is based on justice being fulfilled. The “hilasmos” ( ‘ιλασμος = propitiation in 1 John 2:2; 4:10 ) root in Luke 18:13 (verb – ‘ιλασθητι, from ‘ιλασκομαι = “to be merciful based on satisfaction” or “to be propitious or “to propitiate”) is also used in Romans 3:25-26, Hebrews 2:17; I John 2:2 and I John 4:10 and means “to appease the just wrath of”. (see more at the end of this article) It is translated as “propitiation” in the NASB and “atoning sacrifice” in the NIV. The prophesies in the OT and the Passover and tabernacle sacrifices and the temple sacrifices all point to this. Jesus Al Masih knows He is going to the cross to be the final sacrifice and atonement and ransom for sin – Mark 10:45; Matthew 20:28; Luke 22:20; Luke 24:46-47. So deep within the cry for mercy, the reason why the sinner in the parable is justified is because
1. He confesses His sin as a sinner by nature. ( the Greek definite article, τω – “the sinner”, shows us this. (not just individual sins, but the root nature of his being “the sinner”, and at the core, “sinful”.) that is what the Pharisee missed, he thought his good works were good enough to get him justified.
Islam denies that we are sinners by nature and evil and wicked and self-righteous in our hearts. So, Paul can hardly use this passage as agreeing with Islam.
2. His confession and repentance and cry for mercy is based on the future propitiatory work of Christ in the future (the future to this parable). verse 13 All true repentance and faith all through the Bible presuppose God’s holiness and wrath against sin, His justice and our guilt; the future Messiah who would be the final sacrifice, and trust in that future Messiah. (Genesis 3:15; 15:6; 12:1-3; 22:18; Exodus 12; Leviticus 1-7; 16-17; Isaiah 53; Daniel 9:24-27; Psalm 51; John 1:29; Revelation 5:9)
Therefore, Jesus’ teaching on justification in Luke 18:9-14 is in complete agreement with the apostle Paul’s teaching on justification in his epistles – Romans 3:21-28; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-24; Philippians 3:9; Ephesians 2:8-10.
Also, verse 9 of Luke 18 is a key that refutes Islam also.
9 “And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt.”
The Qur’an says, “you (O Muslims) are the best of peoples” (Surah 3:110) and that Christians and Jews “are the worst of creatures” (Surah 98:6). Islamic culture seems to teach that emphasis of superiority and that they are good and righteous, thus it would seem that Luke 18:9 is speaking to the hearts of Muslims to be careful of their spiritual pride and self-righteousness and thinking they are good by nature. (In Islam, they have the doctrine of the “Fitrah”(Arabic) or “Fitrat” (Farsi) ( فطرت = upright nature) – Surah 30:30) – which to them is contradictory to the Biblical and Christian doctrine of original, inherited sin in the hearts and natures of all humans. (see Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Psalm 51; Romans 5:12; Mark 7:18-23)
Because Islam teaches that all humans are basically good, and not sinners by nature, and only weak and forgetful, and if they just get the right guidance and knowledge of Islam and do the external rituals of shahada, wudzu, salaat, fasting during Ramadan, Hajj once in lifetime, zakat, etc. So, how come all that guidance and knowledge doesn’t help get rid of secret sins, lusts, jealousies, angers, adultery, hatred, pride, selfishness, etc. ??
Because of this emphasis – it is Muslims sincerely (they think, as they don’t seem to see the depths of pride, lust, selfishness, evil motives in their hearts) who trust in themselves that they are righteous – they are good and actively preach against the Biblical doctrine of original sin and internal sins as roots of external sins; it is Muslims who have the great tendency to be like the Pharisees and self-righteous, as in this parable; which is another really ironic thing about Paul Williams trying to use this parable as somehow like Islam.
Another problem is that Islam teaches people (not always, but by having this Hadith, and the nature of humans the way they are, the whole culture lends itself to this tendency) to hide their secret embarrassing sins (especially sexual sins like lusts, Adultery, pre-marital sex, abortions) – as the article that Paul wrote over a year ago, here, on “Veiling one’s wrong-doing” – January 13, 2012. I am still waiting on that Hadith reference.
The article on “Veiling One’s wrong doing” is no longer there.
NT passages where the propitiation (nouns and verbs) word group concept is used:
Romans 3:25-26
ὃν προέθετο ὁ θεὸς ἱλαστήριον
“which God put forward as a propitiation (satisfaction of justice; appeasement of wrath” – ‘ιλαστηριον )
διὰ πίστεως ἐν τῷ αὐτοῦ αἵματι
through faith in His blood
εἰς ἔνδειξιν τῆς δικαιοσύνης αὐτοῦ
leading to demonstrating His righteousness . . .
διὰ τὴν πάρεσιν τῶν προγεγονότων ἁμαρτημάτων
through the passing over the previously committed sins,
26 ἐν τῇ ἀνοχῇ τοῦ θεοῦ,
in the forbearance of God
πρὸς τὴν ἔνδειξιν τῆς δικαιοσύνης αὐτοῦ
toward the demonstration of the righteousness of His
ἐν τῷ νῦν καιρῷ,
at the present time
εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν δίκαιον καὶ δικαιοῦντα
leading to Him being the just and the justifier
τὸν ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ.
-of the one who has faith in Jesus
Hebrews 2:17 – He had to be made like His brethren in all things . . . “in order to make propitiation for the sins of the people”
ἱλάσκεσθαι
1 John 2:2 – ‘ιλασμος
“He is the propitiation for our sins, not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world”
1 John 4:10 – ‘ιλασμον
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
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“Islam denies that we are sinners by nature and evil and wicked and self-righteous in our hearts”
bloody hell christian. you got to use the “evil” heart to love god with all thy soul and all they brain and all thy flesh….
are you calling jesus idiot for telling people to do command which is IMPOSSIBLE with “evil” heart?
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Ken thats just fundamentalist propaganda, reading Calvinist ideology into the gospel of Luke!
you claim: “The Greek word for “have mercy on me” is better translated “be propitious toward me””
All the major modern Bible translations I have seen do not mention any propitiation, they have:
New International Version
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
New Living Translation
“But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’
English Standard Version
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
New American Standard Bible
“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’
King James Bible
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
International Standard Version
“But the tax collector stood at a distance and would not even look up to heaven. Instead, he continued to beat his chest and said, ‘O God, be merciful to me, the sinner that I am!’
NET Bible
The tax collector, however, stood far off and would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, be merciful to me, sinner that I am!’
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But that Tax Collector was standing from a distance and he would not even lift his eyes up to Heaven, but he was smiting on his chest and he said, ‘God, have pity on me, a sinner.’ “
GOD’S WORD® Translation
“But the tax collector was standing at a distance. He wouldn’t even look up to heaven. Instead, he became very upset, and he said, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
New American Standard 1977
“But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’
King James 2000 Bible
And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
American King James Version
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes to heaven, but smote on his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
American Standard Version
But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be thou merciful to me a sinner.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O god, be merciful to me a sinner.
Darby Bible Translation
And the tax-gatherer, standing afar off, would not lift up even his eyes to heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, O God, have compassion on me, the sinner.
English Revised Version
But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner.
Webster’s Bible Translation
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes to heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Weymouth New Testament
“But the tax-gatherer, standing far back, would not so much as lift his eyes to Heaven, but kept beating his breast and saying, “‘O God, be reconciled to me, sinner that I am.’
World English Bible
But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
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“2. His confession and repentance and cry for mercy is based on the future propitiatory work of Christ in the future (the future to this parable). verse 13 All true repentance and faith all through the Bible presuppose God’s holiness and wrath against sin, His justice and our guilt; the future Messiah who would be the final sacrifice, and trust in that future Messiah. (Genesis 3:15; 15:6; 12:1-3; 22:18; Exodus 12; Leviticus 1-7; 16-17; Isaiah 53; Daniel 9:24-27; Psalm 51; John 1:29; Revelation 5:9)”
this is sad. that guy WALKED away home. he didn’t become a lover of jesus. have you no shame for lying?
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Paul Williams – (and Robert2016)
You are not intellectually qualified to interpret Luke 18:13, because you are ignoring the deeper meaning of the Greek word, and you ignore sciences of interpretation according to context, background, and the harmony of the “rule of faith” with all other passages in the NT.
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“The Qur’an says, “you (O Muslims) are the best of peoples” (Surah 3:110) and that Christians and Jews “are the worst of creatures” (Surah 98:6). Islamic culture seems to teach that emphasis of superiority and that they are good and righteous, thus it would seem that Luke 18:9 is speaking to the hearts of Muslims to be careful of their spiritual pride and self-righteousness and thinking they are good by nature. (In Islam, they have the doctrine of the “Fitrah”(Arabic) or “Fitrat” (Farsi) ( فطرت = upright nature) – Surah 30:30) – which to them is contradictory to the Biblical and Christian doctrine of original, inherited sin in the hearts and natures of all humans. (see Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Psalm 51; Romans 5:12; Mark 7:18-23)”
what a disgusting christian twist of text
You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah. If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.
the quran say not to ATTRIBUTE righteousness to the self . no muslim goes around saying ” i am…”
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Ken how come no major translation of the Bible into English agrees with your view? Could it just possibly be that you are wrong?
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are you calling jesus idiot for telling people to do command which is IMPOSSIBLE with “evil” heart?
No; of course I don’t call Jesus “an idiot”; that is your interpretation of God’s demands to be perfect (Matthew 5:48) and to love God with all your heart, but you have first try to do it, and then realize you cannot do it, and then repent and turn to Christ and trust Him and His grace to give you a new heart, so that you can then do it.
Yes it is impossible to do in your own religious human strength.
Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise Him on the last day.” John 6:44
Jesus said, “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot hear My word.” John 8:43
“With men it is impossible, but not with God; with God all things are possible.” Mark 10:23-27
“The Lord opened Lydia’s heart to respond to the things that Paul was preaching.” Acts 16:14
Your heart has to be opened by the invisible and mysterious work of God in the heart, that no one can see or know when it happens, until there is evidence by a change of heart.
You must be born again spiritually. John 3:1-10
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The eminent Bible translator Ken Temple says to all the distinguished translators of Luke 18 listed above who ALL translate the Greek God be merciful to me a sinner:
You are not intellectually qualified to interpret Luke 18:13, because you are ignoring the deeper meaning of the Greek word, and you ignore sciences of interpretation according to context, background, and the harmony of the “rule of faith” with all other passages in the NT.
LOL
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Paul,
When an English speaker uses English Qur’an and you guys have a problem with what the Christian says, you say, “You don’t understand the deep Arabic there”, or “you are not intellectually qualified”, “you are not an islamic scholar”, “you don’t know Hadith sciences”, etc.
Same for Luke 18:13 – you have to study the Greek to get to the deeper meaning. that is why minister’s go to seminary, to study Greek (and Hebrew and theology, historical backgrounds, etc.)
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Muslims are born again spiritually.
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‘Same for Luke 18:13 – you have to study the Greek to get to the deeper meaning. that is why minister’s go to seminary, to study Greek (and Hebrew and theology, historical backgrounds, etc.)’
The great Bible translator Ken Temple says to all the distinguished translators of Luke 18 listed above, all experts in Greek, Hebrew and theology, historical backgrounds, etc. who ALL translate the Greek ‘God be merciful to me a sinner’:
You are not intellectually qualified to interpret Luke 18:13, because you are ignoring the deeper meaning of the Greek word, and you ignore sciences of interpretation according to context, background, and the harmony of the “rule of faith” with all other passages in the NT.
LOL
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14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. 15 Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
then next chapter
5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
bro williams do you think that their is some kind of inconsistency here?
it is alright 4 jesus ‘ disiples to be SEEN by men
jesus’ argument really blows to pieces if the pharisees argued that their prayer ONLY for people to see and give GLORY to the father.
it does not seem jesus forbid PUBLIC prayer.
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My NASB has a note on Luke 18:13 in the margin and explains, “be propitious”. The context of the temple sacrifices; and confession of being a sinner by nature also relate to this. The information is all there, you just have to not be lazy and study the passage harder. I laid it all out for you.
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Every translation has ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ including the NASB.
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“No; of course I don’t call Jesus “an idiot”; that is your interpretation of God’s demands to be perfect (Matthew 5:48) and to love God with all your heart, but you have first try to do it, and then realize you cannot do it, and then repent and turn to Christ and trust Him and His grace to give you a new heart, so that you can then do it.
Yes it is impossible to do in your own religious human strength”
actually like jesus’ FAILED prophecies this is ANOTHER FAILURE of jesus. even after you christians accept jesus into your heart you STILL do awful sins. why do you think paul was pushing human sacrifice over animal sacrifice? he was thinking animal sacrifices weren’t changing hearts and told people to try human sacrifice, but what we see is that the cross, jesus, his blood has CAUSED more sins
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“(Matthew 5:48) and to love God with all your heart, but you have first try to do it, and then realize you cannot do it, and then repent and turn to Christ and trust Him and His grace to give you a new heart, so that you can then do it.
Yes it is impossible to do in your own religious human strength.”
you are lying again.
29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.e 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’g There is no commandment greater than these.”
32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
are you really thinking that your jesus had his human sacrificial ritual in mind to become close when he said ” you are NOT far…”
so the HEART is not evil by nature.
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Jesus clearly teaches in the passage that it is humility that justifies – not sacrifices, not good works, but humbling ourselves before God as the tax collector does.
Luke does not teach that Jesus dies as a sacrifice for sin or substitute or atonement. He differs from Matt and Mk in this. You are forcing Luke into a mould that is quite alien to his soteriology. Classic fundamentalism.
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Muslims are not born-again – you have no concept or doctrine of that at all; and no doctrine of the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity, who indwells believers in Christ. John 7:37-39; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 3:1-10
Islam is just external religion and obedience to external law in society.
As in the video you put up, Islamic scholar Jonathan Brown said, “Islamic leaders don’t care what you do in your home” (or your heart) – the main point of Islam is just obeying the rules of society and rituals (wudu, salaat, Haj, Ramadan; Zakat; it has little to do with the heart or secret sins. It talks about evil thoughts and pride and greed a little bit, but it is not an emphasis like in Matthew 5:28-30 or 5:22-26 or Mark 7:20-23.
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“Your heart has to be opened by the invisible and mysterious work of God in the heart, that no one can see or know when it happens, until there is evidence by a change of heart.”
what do you understand about islamic terms such as tazkiyah , ihsan…?
jack?
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When I became a Muslim all my sins were washed away – I was told that it was if I was a new born baby pure before God.
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“Islam is just external religion and obedience to external law in society.”
you are a LIAR for jesus!
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‘Islam is just external religion and obedience to external law in society.’
This proves once again that you are a total ignoramus about Islam. Shocking that an otherwise intelligent person can be so blind and stupid.
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Ken behaves like a teenage troll sometimes.
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true humility is realizing one is a sinner by nature, and that you cannot save yourself, and turn to Christ Jesus and His atonement and resurrection to save you.
Luke agrees with this:
thus is is written, that the Messiah should suffer, and rise again from the dead, and that
repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed to all the nations.” Luke 24:44-47
The repentance includes the turning in trust in the death and resurrection of Christ. Total agreement with Mark, Matthew, and john and Romans and 1 Cor and rest of NT.
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ihsan – yes, we have that in Farsi, which comes from the Arabic. احسان = good ; also from the root حسن hasan = good or beneficial; and the phrase حُسن نیت = good motives.
tazkieh = تزکیه = refinement, purifying, from zakia
Like I said, Islam talks about these things a little, but it is not the main emphasis. The main emphasis is on obedience to the external rituals and rules of society.
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Ken no point in engaging with you any further. Most biblical scholar disagree with your view of Luke. All Muslims reject your absurd and silly views about Islam.
You need to study Islam and learn. But I fear your hard core right-wing American fundamentalist Christianity will block you from that.
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‘Islam is just external religion and obedience to external law in society.’
Ok, I should I written,
‘Islam is mainly about external religion and rituals and obedience to external law in society.’
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“true humility is realizing one is a sinner by nature, and that you cannot save yourself, and turn to Christ Jesus and His atonement and resurrection to save you.”
psychologists say that defeatist mentally and thinking you are dirty, vile, shit , wretched, scum, etc etc is not good for the soul
too much of this could be BOASTING. you can SAVE yourself because GOD can make SALVATION DOABLE BY THE commands he GIVES.
and nobody even needs “messiah should suffer” when LEARNING to do right does not even require human sacrificial ritual
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Ken
You need to study Islam and learn.
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I have and even Tim Winter, Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad, admitted that Sufism (emphasis on the heart, spirituality, and the love of God, etc.) was a later development, because the Muslims got discouraged over Islam being such a legalistic, ritualistic and externally emphasized religion. You even linked to the article at your old blog.
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yawn…
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so ken , how many church rituals did you do this week?
the first ritual you depend on is sacrificing human being for your sins
so what ritual do you perform to get CLOSENESS to this sacrificed thing?
what do you DO?
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so you have faith, you pray, what other INSTRUCTIONS do you do?
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“ihsan – yes, we have that in Farsi, which comes from the Arabic. احسان = good ; also from the root حسن hasan = good or beneficial; and the phrase حُسن نیت = good motives.
tazkieh = تزکیه = refinement, purifying, from zakia
Like I said, Islam talks about these things a little, but it is not the main emphasis. The main emphasis is on obedience to the external rituals and rules of society.”
tell me something if the main emphasis was on external ritual like your god wearing FLESH and then people watching him having it “sacrificed” to himself, do you think it would mention “taqwa” before performing ACT?
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“true humility is realizing one is a sinner by nature, and that you cannot save yourself…”
THIS IS a disease of your religion. what you are saying is that the creator who describe himself with attributes such as mercy, kindness etc etc cannot have a DIRECT conversation with you EXCEPT through a BLOODY door
forget “saving yourself” you can’t even talk to god WITHOUT a human sacrificial ritual a god did to himself when he wore flesh.
God sent people that God is not like the ancient aztecs who required blood as phone line to god.
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after careful thought you BOAST in your sinful nature. you BOAST about it
your entire religion BOASTS about how sinful humans are and how god CREATED that DISEASE at BIRTH.
DISGUSTING.
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No, Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God by sinning, and that caused all other humans to inherit the sinful nature in the heart/soul. Genesis 3; Romans 5:12-21; Psalm 51:4-5; Genesis 6:5; Mark 7:20-23; Matthew 5:21-30; Jeremiah 17:9
God holds every individual accountable for his/her own sin.
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“dam and Eve chose to rebel against God by sinning, and that caused all other humans to inherit the sinful nature in the heart/soul.”
you are making the rebellion as another power beside god. so who is responsible for your born in sin nature? rebellion or god? who created your nature? rebellion or god?
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As Augustine wrote, “The wrong use of the free will by Adam and Eve caused the free will to be destroyed”
Enchiridion 30
“For it was in the evil use of his free will that man destroyed himself and his will at the same time.”
” . . . sin which arises from the action of the free will turns out to be victor over the will and the free will is destroyed.”
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who CREATED your nature? REBELLION or god?
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God sovereignly allows sin and evil to happen; but He is not the author of sin. He allowed Lucifer the cherub – angel to become Satan/the devil, by free will.
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“rebellion” is not a being or person, as God is; so your parallel is illogical and wrong.
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so lets make rebellion into a person . so lets assume that rebellion is some kind of force which is unseen.
did rebellion CAUSE the inheritance of sin and is ANOTHER force besides god?
“God ALLOWS sin” you said.
so adams DISOBEDIENT action and thought was NOT created by god, but sin?
so SIN CREPT in AND POWERFULLY MADE adam CHOOSE to disobey?
did sin CREATE SINFUL nature of baby? are all babies born in sin ?
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so jesus’ human nature was born in sin? if not who protected it?
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Catholics say immaculate conception
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“God sovereignly allows sin and evil to happen; but He is not the author of sin”
1. is a NEW BORN baby a sinful being?
2. who MADE it a SINFUL BEING?
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” . . . sin which arises from the action of the free will turns out to be victor over the will and the free will is destroyed.”
“free will turns out to be victor” unless this biased god created a human nature for himself and then gets BORN of a woman who was born in SIN
so this god really did an unfair one on poor adam who was created without parents.
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The Roman Catholic phrase “immaculate conception” is only in reference to Mary, not to Jesus.
Jesus was protected from sin because He was also God. That is why He had no human father.
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Robert2016, I recommend you read “Willing to Believe” by R. C. Sproul.
or
The Freedom of the Will, by Jonathan Edwards (very deep and difficult 18th century English syntax)
or
go to http://www.desiringGod.org and read and listen to John Piper’s many sermons.
or Listen to John McArthur’s sermon here and read my notes.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/01/22/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering-john-mcarthur-2/
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ken, WHO GAVE THE BABY SIN NATURE?
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yes I am well aware that it is a Roman Catholic phrase. Mary was protected from the stain of original sin by God. Catholicism in general makes better sense than evangelicalism I find.
Ken go read http://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html
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“Jesus was protected from sin because He was also God. That is why He had no human father.”
so he inherited mary’s facial features, but not her “born in sin” nature? in your pagan theology there is
unseen invisible god and ATTACHED human person WITH human nature
this human person with human flesh
who protected it from making sinful choice?
or do the two natures mix LOL
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“Mary was protected from the stain of original sin by God. ”
so it makes sense that mary is the sophia/wisdom of god
it is a female person
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is the new born babies HEART contain adultery, theft , murder , stealing ….?
if yes , who created this corrupted heart? did the baby make this CHOICE? if it did not make a free will choice to sin , how is it born with sinful heart?
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As Augustine wrote, “The wrong use of the free will by Adam and Eve caused the free will to be destroyed”
Enchiridion 30
“For it was in the evil use of his free will that man destroyed himself and his will at the same time.”
” . . . sin which arises from the action of the free will turns out to be victor over the will and the free will is destroyed.”
so now there is BLAME game going on here
“it was adams fault, if that guy didn’t eat from the tree, i would not have sin nature”
so you and augustine are telling your god, “thanks god for creating these disobedient parents, because of you i now have sinful nature”
“you let the INFECTION out of the garden, thanks a lot god”
” i sin mon-fri because you LET THE INFECTION go out”
IF MAN HAS BEEN GIVEN A NATURE IN WHICH HE CAN NEVER EVER OBEY GOD, THEN IT IS YOUR FAULT GOD.
This is christian “humility”
it stinks
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“The Qur’an says, “you (O Muslims) are the best of peoples” (Surah 3:110) and that Christians and Jews “are the worst of creatures” (Surah 98:6). Islamic culture seems to teach that emphasis of superiority and that they are good and righteous, thus it would seem that Luke 18:9 is speaking to the hearts of Muslims to be careful of their spiritual pride and self-righteousness and thinking they are good by nature.”
but you are reading this from the christian perspective which says even babies ARE BORN WITH EVIL AND FILTHY human nature
now the way to forbid this EVIL thought of yours is to ARGUE WITH YOUR evil beliefs. so is there ANYTHING WRONG with telling liars like you that BABIES ARE NOT BORN WITH EVIL HEART?
is there anything wrong with that?
it is you with your lies which tells people that humans are dirty, filthy, vile , wretched and they can’t make a communication with god without a human sacrifcial ritual. can’t one enjoin the good and say EVERYONE CAN TALK TO GOD DIRECTLY CAUSE HIS mercy and KINDNESS DOES NOT HAVE DOORS?
I WILL QUOTE
It is disturbing that Christians believe there really isn’t much any of them can do about their so-called “sinful nature” because they believe they don’t have the ability in themselves to overcome this so-called powerful law of what they believe to be their human nature–which is why they rely so heavily on the dead blood of jesus to save them from their sins. This means then, that they continue to “sin” believing they cannot help themselves. If Christians believe that their “human nature” is responsible for their evil deeds then instead of worshiping Yahweh, Christians should be blaming him, as according to the Bible, it was Yahweh who gave them their “human nature” in the first place–which, as they say, is prone to sin .
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remember, your theology tells you that you christians are born “right off”
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