Like most Muslims who know about them, I’m not a fan of Quilliam.
But is being strongly opposed to Wahhabis or Salafis make you a takfiri? Does Quilliam actually do takfir of others, ie. do they call certain Muslim groups kafirs? Opposition does not equate to takfir. Even calling someone an innovator is not takfir.
It’s when you say “kafir”, “heretic”, or “you are not Muslim” that you are in takfir territory.
The phenomenon of “takfeeritis” as Adam calls it (takfir or nonsensical disagreements) certainly exists.
But Adam and QF stray dangerously close to the same by their deprecatory language about Muslims who do not share their views, saying others views are not Islamic (arguably implied takfir), and using language that is known to be offensive.
I’d be very much interested in seeing Adam list a group a of puritans in Britain so I can understand who QF are babbling on about when they talk about puritanical thought and puritans.
If they are talking about British Salafis then they have to explain why they’re so opposed to a group who are apolitical and anti-terrorist.
As of now QF is divisive and seems to be counterintuitive thus one may be left wondering if there are ulterior motives at play.
More transparency less social media attention-seeking is what I want to see from them
I agree: QF now seems intent on Muslim bashing every-day. Adam in particular seems to enjoy doing this. Ironically the salafis are the good guys in all this and are totally opposed to terrorism.
How do you know they are pious? I will also say Jimmy Swaggart and Pastor Eddie Lee Long and the Church fathers sleeping with children are pious. Pope Benedict apologized to the victims of his Church fathers. The sex terrorism is Church must not be forgotten.
When one accuses someone of being an unbeliever, one has to have undeniable proof, not one’s personal opinion. It has been shown from the actions of ISIS that it is not an Islamic organization. On the other hand, people like Deen label other Muslims as unbelievers on a whim, simply because they don’t agree with them. See the difference? Now go back to smoking some pot and not showering for several days.
Paul you didn’t make the claim that you follow the example of western Islamic scholars who say that ISIS Muslims are not Muslims, You claimed you followed Mohamed’s example so I again ask you show me where Mohamed said that ISIS are not Muslims?
“It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings abo
ut anything without mastery of the Arabic
language.”
It is hilarious that a group largely consisting of Western Muslims is going to admonish Muslims in the Islamic State to master Arabic.
I fell over laughing the first time I read that and I am sure Baghdadi did too if he even bothered reading this preposterous letter. http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
I know lol,but its worst than that. The document is self refuting read point number 4.
“It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.”
So unless any of those points are “fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know” then the ISIS scholars can disagree with everything in it and still be Muslim scholars.
Let’s say you can. So? I don’t practice my religion based on what some troll thinks is correct Islam or not. Why do you think your opinion matters more than what Muslim scholars have to say about ISIS?
Why do you think your opinion matters more than what Muslim scholars have to say about ISIS?
My response because that open letter is not worth the bytes it takes to contain it. If I can refute it don’t you think then that the Islamic scholars of ISIS who have a mastery of the Arabic language can easily refute it?
Paul BTW are you going to be joining Tommy Robinson In Rotherham on Saturday May 28th to protest the appalling events that have happened to young girls in the town?
“My response because that open letter is not worth the bytes it takes to contain it. If I can refute it don’t you think then that the Islamic scholars of ISIS who have a mastery of the Arabic language can easily refute it?”
Hmm, really? Well let’s see you refute it then! Making empty statements doesn’t prove anything except that you are full of hot air…which may be because of all the pot you’ve been smoking! Don’t you know that drugs are bad for you?
Hippy Rainbow Sunshine: If I can refute it don’t you think then that the Islamic scholars of ISIS who have a mastery of the Arabic language can easily refute it?
Intuitively, it is highly unlikely that a random person on the internet with absolutely no formal training in Islamic studies can refute something that is endorsed by a huge body of scholars. In any case, Muslims aren’t interested in what you have to say. Academics aren’t interested in what you have to say. The media isn’t interested in what you have to say. No one gives a shit about your opinions which explains why you have taken upon trolling as a way of airing your shit.
Hippy, if you really think the letter to baghdadi is bogus, write a paper and get it published in a good journal. Or at least present your findings in a relevant conference. Until then, you are just another random Islamophobic troll on the internet that I have no reason to take seriously.
I’m no scholar so when I see a huge number of scholars suporting the letter, I am persuaded to believe that all the points are well established. How about that?
Wow you have just proved my point. Let me ask you, is the implementation of Sharia law is the criminal judicial system in Islam “fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know”?
Hippy, I’m not interested in playing your silly games. Just tell me, on what intuitive grounds should I as a layman care about what a random troll on the internet has to say when those in academia don’t care about what you have to say and never will?
Ok let me spell it out for you. Point number 4 of that document states…
“It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.”
So if the points listed in the letter are NOT ” fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.”. Then that means that everyone of the points can be disputed by ISIS scholars and more importantly the opinions of ISIS scholars are just as valid as the opinions of the scholars who singed this letter.
IS – Sure, apostates, kafur, blasphemers, polytheists, and people of the book not paying their jizya are guilty as hell and that just where we are going to send them.
10 – It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat in any way Christians or any ‘People of the
Scripture’
IS – Yep, unless they don’t pay their extortion jiizya, cause if so, we gonna pop em straight to hell, And BTW, if they are not “people of the book” all bets are off baby.
14 – It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.
IS – Youbetchya, like the right to be one of my 4 wives, and the right to be rape impregnated if you are one of my captive slaves, and the right to get whipped if you bring charges of rape without 4 male witnesses, and the right to have your testimony be worth half that of a man’s, and the right to be stoned to death for adultery and the right…well, you get the idea 🙂
I could go on and on but this letter is just so absurd it really is not worth the trouble. I am sure the folks in the IS were rolling on the floor laughing at the stupidity of the authors of this inane pack of idiocy.
“I’m no scholar so when I see a huge number of scholars suporting the letter, I am persuaded to believe that all the points are well established. How about that?”
You see, that right there is the problem. All muslims are following some “expert” or another – you just don’t always agree that with each other’s experts. Al Baghdadi is an Islamic scholar who knows Arabic and has university credentials in your scriptures.
Your religion is so esoteric and inaccessible that even those who believe it only believe because of what someone else has told them – by your own words you betray the fact that you have no means by which to challenge the religious proclamations of your priesthood, regardless of how incoherent they might be. One is simply unable to pick up your scriptures and read them in your own language and draw your own conclusions – you need experts to think for you.
This is a classic case of theological self-interest in which power over people’s thoughts and behaviours is controlled by a handful of “god experts” with suspect religious piety whose sole aim is to maintain their power by telling everyone how expert they are and that the scriptures are too difficult for an average man or woman to understand. The catholic church had a similar system in the past, but they moved past that nonsense.
Let’s be honest – the idea that your god can only make himself understood through the work of self-righteous “scholars” and “experts” is patently ridiculous. If this all-powerful being must have the help of mere humans to get his message across, then it is likely that this being does not exist and you guys are are deluding yourselves with your intricately silly religious laws which – surprise, surprise – also seem to contribute to maintaining the power of the religious charlatans you call “scholars”.
John: You see, that right there is the problem. All muslims are following some “expert” or another – you just don’t always agree that with each other’s experts. Al Baghdadi is an Islamic scholar who knows Arabic and has university credentials in your scriptures.
There’s a difference between following mainstream scholarship and following fringe views. The Letter to Baghdadi represents mainstream scholarship’s response to ISIS, and I follow the mainstream.
It is ALLEGED that Baghdadi has a PhD from some university of Iraq but beyond that we don’t know much.
John: Your religion is so esoteric and inaccessible that even those who believe it only believe because of what someone else has told them – by your own words you betray the fact that you have no means by which to challenge the religious proclamations of your priesthood, regardless of how incoherent they might be. One is simply unable to pick up your scriptures and read them in your own language and draw your own conclusions – you need experts to think for you.
Sure. What is it to you?
John: Let’s be honest – the idea that your god can only make himself understood through the work of self-righteous “scholars” and “experts” is patently ridiculous. If this all-powerful being must have the help of mere humans to get his message across, then it is likely that this being does not exist and you guys are are deluding yourselves with your intricately silly religious laws which – surprise, surprise – also seem to contribute to maintaining the power of the religious charlatans you call “scholars”.
Fine, we are deluded. Are you trolling because you want to save us from our delusions or is it because you don’t have anything better to do?
To me, the issue is that there are a significant number of muslims plotting to kill and maim non-muslims like me – they have the same absurd attitude to their faith as you. They follow the teachings of “experts” just like you, they, like you, are told that they are simply too ignorant to challenge the proclamations of their scholars. The only difference between their blind and mindless following of authority and yours is that they happen to follow people with a different interpretation of your superstitions to yours.
Neither they nor you – again according to your words – are capable of reading the texts yourselves and telling your authorities that they are wrong. I wouldn’t care that you are deluded, nor that you might want to go around wearing a dress and sporting a ridiculous beard and looking like a transgender person who can’t make up their mind, but the issue is that your faith’s insistence on wilful ignorance of it followers means that I have to wonder if my next subway trip will result in my being blown to pieces or riddled with automatic weapons fire because you guys are happy to go through life not taking responsibility for your own beliefs.
That goes beyond wilful ignorance, that is wilful stupidity. Your delusion isn’t just a source of great amusement for me, it is a source of great anxiety because people who choose to be both ignorant and stupid can be led to do anything – hence middle class and upper class muslims who have all the best that life could offer abandoning it all to go to Syria and throw homsexuals off of rooves, cut off the heads of non-muslims and blow themselves up.
If only they just used the brain that nature endowed them with – sadly you and your faith seems to suggest that using your brain is haram.
“Fine. We are dumb and deluded for believing in Islam. ”
That isn’t what I said and you know it – you are deluded for believing in islam but I wouldn’t care if your delusions didn’t lead to mass murder. I said that you are being willfully ignorant and willfully stupid by basing your beliefs on what you are told to believe, not on what you can verify yourselves by reading your own scriptures.
The answer to extremism is not more blind following of scholars who dress like transgenders but a more critical examination of what you are told. In other words, tyhink
Burhanuddin1
“John get a life. Yes it’s partly a sad mad world we live in. But stop blaming “THE Muslim”, otherwise you come across as just another racist idiot.”
It’s a “sad mad world”?
It would be less sad and especially less mad if you guys stopped sniffing around the nether regions of “experts” who tell you what to think.
That’s the ignorant arrogant hypocritical racist attitude you are constantly displaying here. Stop accusing me of things I don’t do, capice?”
Racist? What race is Muslim part of? What are their racial characteristics? What is their typical skin colour? Please advise.
Are you disagreeing with Kmak that you need to follow the proclamations of experts in your religion? If I’m wrong’ Kmak is wrong.
Paul
“Final warning John. Get civilised or be banned.”
No problem. Just note that I was repeatedly called a moron and idiot by Faiz on a couple of the other threads so I hope you are consistent with your comment policy.
“John, I’m trying to avoid living in a simplistic black and white world. From my understanding we live in a universe that makes sense.
Maybe you should check up if your understanding of “racism” is up to date”
I’m not exactly sure what you are talking about here – I think we live in a world that makes sense. Islam isn’t part of the rational and logical universe that I think we live in. Does it make sense to believe that there was a flying beast of some sort was ridden up to heaven where a conversation with your god was had? Does it make sense to believe that trees and stones will talk and denounce jews hiding behind them? Can dead person be brought back to life by sacrificing a cow and hitting the dead person with a piece of it?
None of those Islamic truths make any sense whatsoever given what we actually know about our universe.
Racism…
“Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics. ”
That sounds right to me. What is your definition of racism? Are Muslim or Islamic moral and social traits predetermined by biological characteristics? What are the biological characteristics of the “Muslim” race?
John, I don’t think we live in the same world. I’m not gonna waste my time on you. So according to you Anti-Semitism i.e. Anti-Judaism is not a form of racism? As I said, get a life
LOL, John. Let’s tell the whole story, no? The fact is that you have been consistently attacking people for being “barbaric”, “ignorant”, and/or “superstitious”, and talking about their private parts. You have even used foul language such as referring to people’s d***s and such other colorful language as bulls**t. I only responded in kind and I did not use foul language. So, nice try in saving face but you are nothing more than a deceitful liar who has been exposed repeatedly for your ignorance and stupidity. Case in point: your recent dismall performance regarding Islamic contributions to science as well as the Islamic view of Jews. Will you be seeing a proctologist soon? 😉
“John, I don’t think we live in the same world. I’m not gonna waste my time on you. So according to you Anti-Semitism i.e. Anti-Judaism is not a form of racism? As I said, get a life”
I agree – I know for a fact that we do not live in the same world. In my world I can use my senses and my brain to make choices and judgments about my life and conduct. Kmak says that Muslims are beholden to the “expertise” of scholars who tell you what to think and believe. Our universes are vastly different.
I think the truth hurts.
Sorry, but anti-semitism and anti-judaism are not the same. Semites are a race, Judaism is a religion. Anti-judaism is no more racist than anti-christianity.
I never attacked anyone as being barbaric – I said your silly religious laws that call for mutilation of thieves who steal a pair of earrings is barbaric and based on superstition. I used the word ignorant as a simple adjective to describe people living in a time when they were ignorant of the psychology of crime. I think that the people who came up with the idea that cutting off the hands of small-time thieves were probably ignorant of a lot of things – no insult there.
Sorry my superstitious friend, I never insulted anyone – and if insults were used on my part, they were directed at silly ideas and not people.
Antisemitism (also spelled anti-Semitism or anti-semitism) is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against JEWS as an ethnic, RELIGIOUS, or racial group.[1][2][3] A person who holds such positions is called an antisemite. Antisemitism is widely considered to be a form of racism
Maybe there’s a reason you need someone in authority to tell you what to think and believe? Anti-judaism is a religious prejudice, anti-semitism is prejudice based on racial – i.e. biological, perceived or real – characteristics. Hence, the Nazis based their anti-semitic racism on ancestry – biological characteristics – and not on whether jews were practicing. Secular, atheistic and religious jews were all targeted because of their race, not their religion.
John while enduring your diatribes against everyone who isn’t you or just like you I have noticed to morbidly obese elephant in the room. There are some underlying questions that you have thus far failed to answer. I still think these are pertinent as up until now you have failed to clearly express why you believe the way you do. So here goes….
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
6. NEW QUESTION: How do you define the ideal dress sense? Since you seem to have a problem with how some Muslim men dress?
This is why you shouldn’t blindly follow other people. I answered Faiz’s questions but he has deluded himself (no surprise there) into believing that just because he did not like my answers it means that no answers were given. I can’t be bothered to go back and look through that whole thread to find my posts, but be my guest – if you want to go back through and address any of the points that I made, then fine.
I will address your claim that there was some divinely imparted knowledge of ancient Arabia even though I answered this silly claim in the other thread – there wasn’t any knowledge of ancient Arabian geology.
Try to think for yourself this time – one of the most important geological facts about Arabia is that it is sitting on a wealth of oil, yet your god seemed to have no idea of this. Maybe your god cannot see through dirt and rocks?
“6. NEW QUESTION: How do you define the ideal dress sense? Since you seem to have a problem with how some Muslim men dress?”
Again, it seems as though none of you commenters on this blog have any sense at all. The gender confused dress-sense of your pious guys is not the problem – the problem is that their dress (and dresses) are supposed to signify just how pious these guys are. Maybe they are, I just think that they’re trying too hard.
Patrice, let me ask you something. Do you speak classical arabic and have you studied the scriptures for years? Have you ever studied the Sana’a manuscript or the recently recovered Birmingham palimpset? If not how do you know that the claims you have made about your religion are true? All you have to go on is what you have been told to believe by other people who claim exclusivity in their ability to understand your scriptures.
Faiz is just upset because I mentioned the hadith that advises beliebers to drink camel piss as a medication. At least I didn’t mention the rest of that hadith – that would have been really ugly. Do you agree that drinking camel urine is a good idea even though it has been linked to the spread of the MERs virus?
Faiz
“LOL. Major burn by Patrice!!! That was awesome how you put Johnnie in his place!”
You’re easy to please.
Burhanuddin1
“Ok John, fine, you are not a racist, you just discriminate against all Muslims based on religious prejudice. Happy now? Good boy”
No I’m not a racist because there are no “Muslim biological characteristics” and hence no muslim race. And I haven’t discriminated against anyone – I think your religion is mere superstition that few can break away from because you are so brainwashed into believing that your god is so inept that you have to rely on a priesthood to tell you what his words means. An opinion is not discrimination.
Johnnie boy, you’re much too high on yourself. You have been exposed as an ignoramus who Googles information on Islam and ignores anything that refutes your inane babble. Case in point: your brainless nonsense about “taqiyya”. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? Oh right! On every single Islamophobic website that peddles similar nonsense!
I notice that you ran away from responding to my refutation of your garbage on Islamic science. Hmmm, what a coincidence! You’ve run away from other discussions too and refused to answer the questions that have embarrassed you for most of your stay on this blog.
Oh and by the way, you ignore the part about the hadith which specifically states that the men who were given camel urine actually felt better! Also, it was not just camel urine. It was mixed in mixed in milk. Hmmm, why would you ignore that part? Oh right! Because you are a liar whose knowledge of Islam is based on Google searches.
In addition, were you aware that even in modern times, some medications are derived from animal urine? Case in point: Premarin. According to Chemical & Engineering News:
“As the name hints, Premarin is derived from pregnant mare’s urine. In the 1920s, scientists discovered that estrogens could be extracted from the human placenta and umbilical cord and used therapeutically. Ayerst, McKenna & Harrison researchers and their academic colleagues in time developed a commercial product that was a mix of several estrogens derived from the urine of pregnant women. Company researchers later learned that the estrogens in the urine of pregnant horses were the same as or similar to human estrogens. Given that horses produce a lot more urine than people do, the end result was a process to extract estrogens from horse urine, which gave birth to Premarin as a new product.” (https://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/83/8325/8325premarin.html)
Facts 1, Little John 0. It;s another shutout!
P.S.
Patrice knows a lot more about Islam than you do. I know that damages your high view of yourself, but you know next to nothing about Islam. Learning about Islam from you would be like learning about surgery from a mechanic. Better yet, it would be like learning about nuclear (or nucular) reactors from Homer Simpson! 😉
John while that was a very insightful response you have failed to answer any of mine and (Faizs’ questions)
But I will indulge your poor attempt but only this once 😉
“nor that you might want to go around wearing a dress and sporting a ridiculous beard and looking like a transgender person who can’t make up their mind”
Your critique was that it looked ridiculous and confused sexually. Is this the infamous anus insecurity at work again. Would you prefer Muslim men wear chaps? You have changed your critique to that of the dress somehow signifying piety? This is a silly argument that only could originate from a truly silly sausage 😉
This is what Islam defines as piety:
“Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous”. – Qur’an 2:177
On to your final question. No i don’t know classical Arabic nor have I studied the early manuscripts of the Qur’an but neither do i as you do immediately dismiss anybody who has and that to acknowledge their insights as important. John may i ask you a question. Why do you dismiss their insights?
WAIT I ALMOST FORGOT!!!
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
6. NEW QUESTION: How do you define the ideal dress sense? Since you seem to have a problem with how some Muslim men dress?
LOL, did anyone notice how nonchalantly John inserted the tidbit about Quranic manuscripts, like he knows something we don’t? Oooh, tell us Johnnie boy! What do you know about the Quranic manuscripts, especially the Birmingham manuscript? We’re all dying to know, since you obviously have done serious research on it…NOT!
Johnnie said: “…you have to rely on a priesthood to tell you what his words means.”
Ehhh, wrong again! Islam doesn’t have a “priesthood”, you ignorant fool. We have scholars known as “ulama”. Just like you would learn science from scientists, or medicine from doctors, you learn about religion from religious scholars. It’s not that hard to understand if you pull your head out from that tight, dark place. You know what I’m talking about. 😉
” Also, it was not just camel urine. It was mixed in mixed in milk. Hmmm, why would you ignore that part?”
Because it sounded absolutely disgusting – you do know that drinking camel’s urine has been linked to the spread of the MERs virus don’t you? I hope you haven’t drunk it.
“Patrice knows a lot more about Islam than you do.”
Ahh! Patrice! Sighhhh! He sounds so wonderful!
Patrice
“Your critique was that it looked ridiculous and confused sexually. Is this the infamous anus insecurity at work again.”
My critique was that I don’t care that people want to express their piety by growing ridiculous beards and wearing dresses that make them look like confused transgendered people. My concern is that your willingness to be blindly led is problematic – followers of the so-called “so-called Islamic state” do the same. Keep trying though, thinking for yourself is a good thing.
“This is what Islam defines as piety”
Good then we agree – wearing dresses is not a sign of piety.
“On to your final question. No i don’t know classical Arabic nor have I studied the early manuscripts of the Qur’an but neither do i as you do immediately dismiss anybody who has and that to acknowledge their insights as important. John may i ask you a question. Why do you dismiss their insights?”
I think you would have to show me where I did all of this – my question is why would your god make his revelations so inaccessible that you have to study years and years in a dead language in order to interpret it? Isn’t Islam supposed to be simple? And why is he only comprehensible in one language?
If you don’t speak the language of your god, then I have it on good authority that you have no business trying to interpret your scriptures. You simply cannot know whether what you believe is actually what is in your scriptures – so whatever you think the quran truly says in your god’s obscure dead language is beyond your comprehension and ability to expound upon. In other words, my opinion is as good as yours.
“WAIT I ALMOST FORGOT!!!
Back to the unanswered questions:”
ooh! ooh! More self-delusion!
FAIZ
“Another brilliant response from Patrice. Johnnie gets put in his place once again!”
Oh, and by the way, your repetition of the same questions – that have been answered is classic cult tactics used by all kinds of sinister groups to break down unsuspecting acolytes. Is that how you came to Islam Patrice?
John your critique has changed again! Dresses are now a sign of blind adherence? Okey Doke….
“My concern is that your willingness to be blindly led is problematic – followers of the so-called “so-called Islamic state” do the same. Keep trying though, thinking for yourself is a good thing.”
I agree that being blind to the truth is deeply troubling. However what is even worse is not being able to define ones terms when asked. I think you know what i mean 😉
John onto your next point. You claim that the religion of Islam and her texts are ‘inacessable’. Islam is very simple and easy to define. If you had actually read the passage i quoted it actually announces the faith. Did you find it difficult to understand? Did you need to learn Arabic to understand that passage?
John you just don’t want to understand and you blame everyone else for your willful ignorance. I will indeed prove your dislike of scholars:
1. ” Kmak says that Muslims are beholden to the “expertise” of scholars who tell you what to think and believe.”
2. “The answer to extremism is not more blind following of scholars who dress like transgenders but a more critical examination of what you are told. In other words, tyhink”
You wrongly conflate respecting and taking expert opinions seriously with “blind following of scholars”. Why do you think that serious study should be without referring to experts? And who told you that you couldn’t understand the basic message of Islam without first learning Arabic? Once again John you seem to conflate comprehension with in depth knowledge. Neither of which you seem to possess.
But this is of course a mute point because….
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
6. NEW QUESTION: How do you define the ideal dress sense? Since you seem to have a problem with how some Muslim men dress?
More half-truths and shabby research from little John…
Do you acknowledge that the hadith states that the men felt better after drinking the mixture of milk and urine? And why did you hide that part?
The MERS virus is a NEW virus. In other words, in case you cannot figure it out, it didn’t infect humans until 2012. The CDC states:
“Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) is a viral respiratory illness that is new to humans. It was first reported in Saudi Arabia in 2012 and has since spread to several other countries, including the United States. Most people infected with MERS-CoV developed severe acute respiratory illness, including fever, cough, and shortness of breath. Many of them have died.” (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/mers/)
Also, while there MAY be a link between camels and the spread of the virus, this is not yet conclusive, though the CDC does recommend avoiding contact with camels, including eating camel MEAT in addition to avoiding drinking camel urine, which evidently is still done by Bedouin tribesmen (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/mers/risk.html).
In addition, human viruses have been found in many animals, such as chickens and pigs. People don’t stop eating the meat from these animals, do they? And yet, there is a risk in contracting infectious diseases. I hope you haven’t eaten any chicken or swine lately! 😉
Funny how you neglected to mention these additional facts. I wonder why?
You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with people’s private parts and anything to do with excreta. You may want to seek professional help!
And no, I have never drank camel’s urine, because I have no need to. We have modern medicine, thanks in large part to the work of Islamic scientists. I have, however, tried to take the Prophet’s timeless advice in seeking out medical treatments and eating foods (though I do get tempted by junk food too) which he recommended due to their health benefits. The list includes:
Cumin
Honey
Figs
Dates
Funny how you ignored this and have remained fixated on camel’s urine. Weird…
Funny how you also ignored the information I provided on how horse’s urine has been used a source for hormonal treatment of post-menopausal women. I wonder why?
Ehhh, wrong again! The opinions of an ignoramus who does Google searches matter little when compared to a learned individual who has actually done research. Your “opinions” have been shown to be based on ignorance, shabby research and outright lies. Why on earth would anyone give credence to such pathetic “opinions”? Put another way, why would anyone give credence to Homer Simpson’s opinions on nuclear reactors? LOL…
“John your critique has changed again! Dresses are now a sign of blind adherence? Okey Doke….”
Actually it hasn’t.
“I agree that being blind to the truth is deeply troubling. ”
Really? You think that being blindly led is the same as being blind to the truth? I should explain the difference but surely the difference is obvious?
“John onto your next point. You claim that the religion of Islam and her texts are ‘inacessable’.”
Sorry, once again, not my claim. This guy claims that it requires years of study in a dead language in order to interpret Islam……
Don’t blame me. I think anybody should be able to pick up your scriptures and both understand and interpret them in any language – I think you will find that it is muslim apologists who make the claim that you have to speak arabic and study for years to even come close to knowing what on earth your god was trying to say. That discounts you and I – but it’s a bigger problem for you because you believe this stuff. Even Kmak agrees that your scriptures are esoteric and inaccessible.
“John you just don’t want to understand and you blame everyone else for your willful ignorance. I will indeed prove your dislike of scholars:
1. ” Kmak says that Muslims are beholden to the “expertise” of scholars who tell you what to think and believe.”
2. “The answer to extremism is not more blind following of scholars who dress like transgenders but a more critical examination of what you are told. In other words, tyhink””
This is just sad. Very sad. It’s not the scholars it’s the blind adherence to their authority. It isn’t that hard Patrice – and I had heard so much about you! Faiz told me you were just wonderful. Then again, those who want to learn and then come across awkward and blatantly horrific content in your scriptures are often told….wait for it…..you have to learn arabic to understand it! Go figure.
“You wrongly conflate respecting and taking expert opinions seriously with “blind following of scholars”. Why do you think that serious study should be without referring to experts? And who told you that you couldn’t understand the basic message of Islam without first learning Arabic?”
Wow, where did I say this? I said you can’t understand the basic message of Islam without learning arabic? Must be your delusion gene at work again.
The problem you have here is that there are thousands of ISIS folks taking their experts’ opinions seriously and blindly following them – experts are causing the problem. Critical thinking is lacking, challenging authority is lacking. Sure experts are a good thing, but why are there so many muslims from good families with good middle class lives blindly following Baghdadi and others like him?
“But this is of course a mute point because….
Back to the unanswered questions”
You do realize that repetitious questioning is a classic cult tactic to break down unsuspecting acolytes and brainwash them into submission? Is that how you came to Islam Patrice?
Faiz
“Do you acknowledge that the hadith states that the men felt better after drinking the mixture of milk and urine?”
Look dude, if you want to drink camel piss then drink camel piss – mix it with whatever you want. It’s not my cup of tea.
John this is getting dull and frankly rather repetetive. So here we go one more time….
Here are my points towards you.
1. You have in the past and still do even now, ridicule Muslims who respect experts in their religion as being “blind adherence”. This is false. I repeat false. That is not blind but intelligent. It is only blind when the people you are referring to do so without thinking for themselves. There is no evidence on this blog of people doing that. This purely originates from your own imagination.
2. Yes you did refer in a derogatory fashion to scholars as having “expertise” implying that they had none. I quoted your own words dude. No good changing the goalposts when you get caught out.
3. John you have demonstrated little to no evidence in your “critiques” of Islam that you have done any research into the topic but instead reduced yourself to insults, mockery, and outright lies such as your Taqiyya comment. You have insulted Arabs in the previous thread and here by referring to their traditional garb as a dress.This is disgraceful behaviour from a person who claims to be rational.
4. You still haven’t answered the questions put to you with regards to your foundational beliefs. How can anyone have a meaningful discussion with you when you refuse to be frank and honest about where you are coming from.
FYI I’m not a Muslim. Stop making assumptions about people with whom you know nothing about.
No kidding! Your repetitious interrogation is also cultish.
“You have in the past and still do even now, ridicule Muslims who respect experts in their religion as being “blind adherence”. This is false. I repeat false. That is not blind but intelligent.”
Actually, it is blind – very, very blind. You need to spend years studying classical arabic in order to be able to determine that the experts’ interpretations are true – not my claim, but the claim of muslim apologists. This is a perfect illustration of following blindly. Your issue is with them not me.
“Yes you did refer in a derogatory fashion to scholars as having “expertise” implying that they had none. I quoted your own words dude. No good changing the goalposts when you get caught out.”
oh please. Don’t go all logic on me – why start now? You believe that the moon was split in two even though most of the people on earth at the time failed to record such a momentous event and that you can resurrect dead bodies by hitting them with a steak. Logic isn’t subjective. And let’s be clear neither you nor I nor most muslims can possibly know how “expert” these god experts are because we cannot cross-check their claims ourselves due to our lack of years of training in a dead language.
“John you have demonstrated little to no evidence in your “critiques” of Islam that you have done any research into the topic but instead reduced yourself to insults, mockery, and outright lies such as your Taqiyya comment. You have insulted Arabs in the previous thread and here by referring to their traditional garb as a dress.This is disgraceful behaviour from a person who claims to be rational.”
Again Patrice, you just can’t get past your dogma and keep tripping over your own inconsistency. No-one except for a handful of god experts can say for sure who has or hasn’t interpreted your scriptures correctly. And you wouldn’t – couldn’t – know any better. You have to blindly accept that what you have been told is true. So there are is no “correct” way to interpret the scriptures other than what you have been told. So just go back to being a concern troll and stop trying to ğpretend that you have special insights into a stack of superstitious writings that muslim apologists themselves claim you could not possibly interpret or understand.
And again – it really is not hard – my critique was of overt displays of piety, sorry you got your feelings hurt dude, but I think the fate of thousands of innocent victims of these pious experts in your faith outweighs that.
“You still haven’t answered the questions put to you with regards to your foundational beliefs. How can anyone have a meaningful discussion with you when you refuse to be frank and honest about where you are coming from.”
Now you are being willfully stupid. Meaningful conversations don’t consist of cultish repetitive interrogation of questions already answered elsewhere. My foundational beliefs are irrelevant – we’re talking about your Islamic beliefs here. The reason you might be finding it difficult to have a meaningful conversation is that you can’t defend your beliefs without trying to determine the beliefs of critics so that you can make tu quoque arguments and deflect attention away from the fact that your faith is superstitious and rationally indefensible.
“FYI I’m not a Muslim. Stop making assumptions about people with whom you know nothing about.”
“Meaningful conversations don’t consist of cultish repetitive interrogation of questions already answered elsewhere.”
LOL! Does anyone else see the irony of this oafish statement? Hmmm, where have I seen “cultish repetitive interrogation of questions already answered elsewhere”? Oh right! In little John’s own posts! Case in point: his repetitive rants on “taqiyya”, which I refuted elsewhere. And yet, like the “cultish” buffoon that he is, this specimen keeps repeating the same nonsense about “taqiyya”! WOW!
Only a brainless Google scholar peddles the “taqiyya” conspiracy theory. Little John is so immersed in the theory that he questions when a non-Muslim with much more knowledge about Islam claims to be a non-Muslim and hurls accusations of possible “taqiyya”. Talk about “cultish repetitive interrogation of questions”…Talk about ironic!
Patrice –
”
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?”
For apostasy (public declaration that one is no longer a Muslim), no. That is an indicator of an extremely barbaric, fascistic, and uncivilized ideology, clearly called for by Muhammad, deeply engrained in sharia.
So Stardusty simply tries to answer the question…without actually answering the question. How do you define “civilized”? And who decides what is “civilized” and what is not?
Each of us decides for ourselves what is moral, civilized, right, and wrong.
In my view it is uncivilized, immoral, and barbaric to enforce a system of robbery, compulsion in religion, murder, enslavement, violent conquest, and extortion, all of which Muhammad did by his recitation and his example. The IS are faithfully fulfilling the clear texts of the prophet’s words from Allah and his example.
You may say these things fit your definition of civilization if you wish, perhaps because they are the word of Allah and then by definition good. That is the theologically consistent view of the IS, since the IS is the purest Islamic organization on Earth.
Stardust Psyche, thank you for proving my point! You use a subjective yardstick with which to measure what it means to be “civilized”. It is your own opinion, nothing more.
Regarding ISIS allegedly being “the purest Islamic organization on Earth”, that is absolute rubbish, as brother Paul already pointed out. Thousands of scholars and millions of learned Muslims have come to the exact opposite conclusion. Whose views do you think counts more? 😉
“Each of us decides for ourselves what is moral, civilized, right, and wrong.”
No we don’t. We approach right and wrong based on a number of factors both existential and inherent such as upbringing, personal experience, level of knowledge (or understanding), societal consensus, and cultural presuppositions. Your ‘decision’ is an amalgamation of all of these factors working together with varying degrees of influence depending on the situation. Inherent referring to ones instincts which have been fine tuned over at the very most 100,000 years of evolution.
However with that being said if you are expressing just an ‘opinion’ against someone elses’ ‘opinion’ how can you hold Prophet Muhammad, ISIS or anyone else as blameworthy? They could just say “to hell with your morality”? You might have to fight ISIS sure but you couldn’t blame them for their actions any more than for the colour of their hair.
What is the point of cutting off people’s hands if they steal a pair of gold earrings? What does your god want from you and your horrible sharia hell society? What good does it do to mutilate criminals? Does it please your god when you inflict this kind of agony of fellow human beings?
Do you (or your god) get a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about people’s hands being severed and blood squirting from the nubs and them screaming in agony? You (and that Intellect guy) seem really bloodthirsty for mutilation – is that something you were born with or does it take a blind faith in the justice of sharia to make you that way?
Little John, are you feeling comfortable resurrecting that topic again? I seem to remember you running away. 😉
We’ve already been through this. But since you are bringing it up again:
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
And if you could please learn to read, I never made the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so there is nothing for me to answer Johnnie boy! You made that claim and I have been asking you to explain how you reached that conclusion. Thus far, you have failed to work up the courage to answer me. When you do try, you fail miserable and only embarrass yourself further! Boy, your butt must be really hurting! Remember, the butthurt will be with always, young padawan. The dark side, I sense in you…
So you don’t deny that you get a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about petty criminals getting their hands chopped off, and you have absolutely no idea what your silly religious law is supposed to accomplish?
“No we don’t. We approach right and wrong based on a number of factors both existential and inherent such as upbringing, personal experience, level of knowledge (or understanding), societal consensus, and cultural presuppositions. Your ‘decision’ is an amalgamation of all of these factors working together with varying degrees of influence depending on the situation. Inherent referring to ones instincts which have been fine tuned over at the very most 100,000 years of evolution. ”
Sorry Patrice, but you seem to have contradicted yourself. First you say we do not each decide, then you give a very nice summary of how each of decides anything.
I suppose that on determinism free will is an illusion, and therefore the sense that we truly decide anything as individuals is also an illusion. If that is what you mean then I agree.
But, philosophical discussions about the illusion of free will aside, functionally we each have the sense of ought, the sense of right and wrong, and on these things each of us makes our own individual judgments.
“However with that being said if you are expressing just an ‘opinion’ against someone elses’ ‘opinion’ how can you hold Prophet Muhammad, ISIS or anyone else as blameworthy?”
Based on mutually agreed upon criteria. If you do not agree that murder, rape, conquest, and extortion are wrong then there is nothing I can do to absolutely prove to you they are.
However, if you and I mutually agree these things are wrong then I can objectively demonstrate to you that these are core Islamic principles that the IS is fulfilling.
“They could just say “to hell with your morality”?”
Indeed, they can and do.
” You might have to fight ISIS sure but you couldn’t blame them for their actions any more than for the colour of their hair.”
On determinism that is correct.
We seem to agree on more than we did at the beginning. However the problem with saying that whether or not IS is Islamic or not is one thing. It would not matter in the grand scheme of things because the real challenge is to convince them that despite that it is wrong to do what they do. What criteria would hold them to?
Do we just fight them and impose our views but this is arguably the kind of action that caused IS to exist in the first place.
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
And if you could please learn to read, I never made the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so there is nothing for me to answer Johnnie boy! You made that claim and I have been asking you to explain how you reached that conclusion. Thus far, you have failed to work up the courage to answer me. When you do try, you fail miserable and only embarrass yourself further! Boy, your butt must be really hurting! Remember, the butthurt will be with always, young padawan. The dark side, I sense in you…
Now, we’ve already dealt with the complexities of the Sharia, such as restrictions as to when a person can and cannot be punished for stealing. A person who steals due to desperation or hunger is not to be blamed. I would not support punishing such a person because it would be against the spirit of the Sharia. But a criminal who steals people’s hard-earned money to satisfy his own greed is not deserving of mercy, in my opinion. I would have no problem with seeing such a person suffer, just as I would not have any problem seeing a child murderer getting what he deserves. Send them to the gallows!
Little John typically does not have the last word because he usually runs away after enduring a lot of humiliation, only to resurface on another thread where he repeats his idiocy. But he very paranoid, since he will often accuse people of “taqiyya,” LOL! I wouldn’t be surprised if he believes in the “stealth jihad” theory, and a Muslim “fifth column” which is trying to secretly take over Europe and America.
“But a criminal who steals people’s hard-earned money to satisfy his own greed is not deserving of mercy, in my opinion. I would have no problem with seeing such a person suffer, just as I would not have any problem seeing a child murderer getting what he deserves.”
Stealing a pair of earrings is the same as child murder? Is stealing earrings as bad as child molestation in the sharia view?
But thanks for being honest – you do get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about mutilating people and you have absolutely no idea why your god wants you to act with such barbarism.
“But he very paranoid, since he will often accuse people of “taqiyya,” LOL! I wouldn’t be surprised if he believes in the “stealth jihad” theory, and a Muslim “fifth column” which is trying to secretly take over Europe and America.”
That just shows your paranoia – I’m still not sure why kmak thinks I’m paranoid.
LOL, little John. You just keep embarrassing yourself further every time you open your mouth! When did I say that “stealing a pair of earrings is the same as child murder”? You really need to pull your head out from your backside. I said that just as I would not feel bad for a child murderer being put to death, I would not feel bad for a thief who steals other people’s hard-earned wealth to satisfy his own greed. See the difference, you sorry excuse for a “rational” person?
Your paranoia is just as obvious as your stupidity. It takes a paranoid person to accuse others of “taqiyya”, because the “taqiyya” nonsense is peddled by the same people who believe in the Muslim “fifth column” conspiracy theory. I bet that you believe that Muslims are secretly trying to take over America and Europe. Am I right? Come one, admit it!
Still not answering my questions, I see…
No surprises there!
But, nevertheless, here they are again:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You said;
Stealing a pair of earrings is the same as child murder? Is stealing earrings as bad as child molestation in the sharia view?
But thanks for being honest – you do get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about mutilating people and you have absolutely no idea why your god wants you to act with such barbarism.
I say;
My friend. We talked about these child molestation and barbarism over and over. If you keep twisting it as if it is Islam but not the west and keep insulting us, I will reply the insult to you. I am warning you, Islam is not barbaric or child molestation thing per se but to reduce them. If you keep repeating your insults and turn the blind eye of what the western law has done to encourage Church Fathers, sleeping with male and female children for the Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger i.e. Pope Benedict to come out and apologize to the victims of his Church Fathers and the rape and molestation of children and sleeping with prostitutes by Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Eddie Lee Long etc. then I will be oblige to insult you back for lying about our religion and ignoring the barbarism and child molestations inherent in the western law.
Pigs do have sense to search for food. An able body who do not want to search for food or knowledge and is waiting for God to spoon feed him like baby or provide every knowledge writing in a book is worse than pigs because pigs have knowledge to search for food.
“When did I say that “stealing a pair of earrings is the same as child murder”? ”
You didn’t say that – and I never said you said that. But you did say that thieves should suffer just like child murderers should suffer – that is, be painfully mutilated in some way. Stealing a pair of gold earrings can get you your hands cut off, so logically, someone stealing earrings will suffer like someone who killed a child.
But I am curious, what provision does your god make in his divine scriptures for molested children? Does he have an opinion?
Also, how would you define “child-murder”? In secular laws, people legally remain children until roughly around the age of 16-18. Does your god consider, let’s say, people who have a smidge of pubic hair on their genital area children? Would killing such people be considered child murder in your god’s eyes?
Intellect
Why the hate? Cutting off people’s hands is barbaric – and most people, including yourself I would imagine, would not celebrate seeing someone’s hands cut off.
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
Before I answer any more of your brainless questions from you, you need to answer these and other questions that you have been avoiding like the plague. Only sensible answers, please. Nonsensical answers will be rejected and the questions will remain! How’s your butthurt? 😉
Why the hate? Cutting off people’s hands is barbaric – and most people, including yourself I would imagine, would not celebrate seeing someone’s hands cut off.
“Note: Pigs have knowledge to search for food.”
Profound, dude.
I say;
Sharia is there to reduce armed robbery in the western countries that mutilates people everyday, homicide, suicide, rape, incest, adultery, fornication, gang raping in prison and outside prison.
After lengthy discussions with you and repeating over and over by you to ignore the mutilation of people everyday by armed robbers and other vices by western law and Sharia is there to reduce the mutilation and you keep repeating is what a pig will not repeat because pig has knowledge to search for food and take care of its children.
Blogging Theology 
Like most Muslims who know about them, I’m not a fan of Quilliam.
But is being strongly opposed to Wahhabis or Salafis make you a takfiri? Does Quilliam actually do takfir of others, ie. do they call certain Muslim groups kafirs? Opposition does not equate to takfir. Even calling someone an innovator is not takfir.
It’s when you say “kafir”, “heretic”, or “you are not Muslim” that you are in takfir territory.
The phenomenon of “takfeeritis” as Adam calls it (takfir or nonsensical disagreements) certainly exists.
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yes the phenomenon of “takfeeritis” exists.
But Adam and QF stray dangerously close to the same by their deprecatory language about Muslims who do not share their views, saying others views are not Islamic (arguably implied takfir), and using language that is known to be offensive.
They have become just another sectarian group.
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I’d be very much interested in seeing Adam list a group a of puritans in Britain so I can understand who QF are babbling on about when they talk about puritanical thought and puritans.
If they are talking about British Salafis then they have to explain why they’re so opposed to a group who are apolitical and anti-terrorist.
As of now QF is divisive and seems to be counterintuitive thus one may be left wondering if there are ulterior motives at play.
More transparency less social media attention-seeking is what I want to see from them
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I agree: QF now seems intent on Muslim bashing every-day. Adam in particular seems to enjoy doing this. Ironically the salafis are the good guys in all this and are totally opposed to terrorism.
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What is Ironic is that Paul Williams has Takfired pious ISIS Muslims on his very own blog lol
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I am just following the example of the Prophet Muhammad who taught they were not Muslim.
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How do you know they are pious? I will also say Jimmy Swaggart and Pastor Eddie Lee Long and the Church fathers sleeping with children are pious. Pope Benedict apologized to the victims of his Church fathers. The sex terrorism is Church must not be forgotten.
Thanks.
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Religion needs borders like a state. When someone goes over the border he is shot. In religion this shooting is Takfir. So don’t oppose Takfir.
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Jukti are you a Muslim?
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Crazy Hippy,
When one accuses someone of being an unbeliever, one has to have undeniable proof, not one’s personal opinion. It has been shown from the actions of ISIS that it is not an Islamic organization. On the other hand, people like Deen label other Muslims as unbelievers on a whim, simply because they don’t agree with them. See the difference? Now go back to smoking some pot and not showering for several days.
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Paul Williams wrote…
“I am just following the example of the Prophet Muhammad who taught they were not Muslim. ”
Show me where Mohamed said that ISIS Muslims are not Muslims?
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I refer you to the refutation of ISIS by a top scholar for all the evidence in a recent post on this site.
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There is no reason to declare IS to be disbelievers. There are some points that could be but I would not make the judgements.
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Paul you didn’t make the claim that you follow the example of western Islamic scholars who say that ISIS Muslims are not Muslims, You claimed you followed Mohamed’s example so I again ask you show me where Mohamed said that ISIS are not Muslims?
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see here
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
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“It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings abo
ut anything without mastery of the Arabic
language.”
It is hilarious that a group largely consisting of Western Muslims is going to admonish Muslims in the Islamic State to master Arabic.
I fell over laughing the first time I read that and I am sure Baghdadi did too if he even bothered reading this preposterous letter.
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
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Stardusty Psyche
I know lol,but its worst than that. The document is self refuting read point number 4.
“It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.”
So unless any of those points are “fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know” then the ISIS scholars can disagree with everything in it and still be Muslim scholars.
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Paul again I ask you to back up your claim. Where did Mohamed say anything about ISIS Muslims?
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Again I ask you not to be so lazy and read the book I recommended which contains a wealth of material about this
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LOL so you don’t have anything.
BTW did you read the site you posted, because I have and I can refute any one of the points listed.
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
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“I can refute any one of the points listed”
Let’s say you can. So? I don’t practice my religion based on what some troll thinks is correct Islam or not. Why do you think your opinion matters more than what Muslim scholars have to say about ISIS?
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Crazy Hippy needs to stop smoking pot. It’s rotting his brain.
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Kmak asked
Why do you think your opinion matters more than what Muslim scholars have to say about ISIS?
My response because that open letter is not worth the bytes it takes to contain it. If I can refute it don’t you think then that the Islamic scholars of ISIS who have a mastery of the Arabic language can easily refute it?
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Paul BTW are you going to be joining Tommy Robinson In Rotherham on Saturday May 28th to protest the appalling events that have happened to young girls in the town?
https://www.facebook.com/events/1690920667791429/
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Crazy Hippy said:
“My response because that open letter is not worth the bytes it takes to contain it. If I can refute it don’t you think then that the Islamic scholars of ISIS who have a mastery of the Arabic language can easily refute it?”
Hmm, really? Well let’s see you refute it then! Making empty statements doesn’t prove anything except that you are full of hot air…which may be because of all the pot you’ve been smoking! Don’t you know that drugs are bad for you?
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Faiz name me one point you would like to be refuted.
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Hippy Rainbow Sunshine: If I can refute it don’t you think then that the Islamic scholars of ISIS who have a mastery of the Arabic language can easily refute it?
Intuitively, it is highly unlikely that a random person on the internet with absolutely no formal training in Islamic studies can refute something that is endorsed by a huge body of scholars. In any case, Muslims aren’t interested in what you have to say. Academics aren’t interested in what you have to say. The media isn’t interested in what you have to say. No one gives a shit about your opinions which explains why you have taken upon trolling as a way of airing your shit.
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Kmak so which point do you think is rock solid that can not be refuted?
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Hippy, if you really think the letter to baghdadi is bogus, write a paper and get it published in a good journal. Or at least present your findings in a relevant conference. Until then, you are just another random Islamophobic troll on the internet that I have no reason to take seriously.
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Wow the paper is that weak you can not even come up with one point that you think is rock solid lol. PATHETIC
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I’m no scholar so when I see a huge number of scholars suporting the letter, I am persuaded to believe that all the points are well established. How about that?
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Wow you have just proved my point. Let me ask you, is the implementation of Sharia law is the criminal judicial system in Islam “fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know”?
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Hippy, I’m not interested in playing your silly games. Just tell me, on what intuitive grounds should I as a layman care about what a random troll on the internet has to say when those in academia don’t care about what you have to say and never will?
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Ok let me spell it out for you. Point number 4 of that document states…
“It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.”
So if the points listed in the letter are NOT ” fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.”. Then that means that everyone of the points can be disputed by ISIS scholars and more importantly the opinions of ISIS scholars are just as valid as the opinions of the scholars who singed this letter.
So its self refuting.
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Some refutation. Haha.
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Yah it is, the document is self refuting. All ISIS scholars have to do is point to point number 4 and say “its permissible to disagree on this”
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6. It is forbidden in Islam
to kill the innocent.
IS – Sure, apostates, kafur, blasphemers, polytheists, and people of the book not paying their jizya are guilty as hell and that just where we are going to send them.
10 – It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat in any way Christians or any ‘People of the
Scripture’
IS – Yep, unless they don’t pay their extortion jiizya, cause if so, we gonna pop em straight to hell, And BTW, if they are not “people of the book” all bets are off baby.
14 – It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.
IS – Youbetchya, like the right to be one of my 4 wives, and the right to be rape impregnated if you are one of my captive slaves, and the right to get whipped if you bring charges of rape without 4 male witnesses, and the right to have your testimony be worth half that of a man’s, and the right to be stoned to death for adultery and the right…well, you get the idea 🙂
I could go on and on but this letter is just so absurd it really is not worth the trouble. I am sure the folks in the IS were rolling on the floor laughing at the stupidity of the authors of this inane pack of idiocy.
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Kmak
“I’m no scholar so when I see a huge number of scholars suporting the letter, I am persuaded to believe that all the points are well established. How about that?”
You see, that right there is the problem. All muslims are following some “expert” or another – you just don’t always agree that with each other’s experts. Al Baghdadi is an Islamic scholar who knows Arabic and has university credentials in your scriptures.
Your religion is so esoteric and inaccessible that even those who believe it only believe because of what someone else has told them – by your own words you betray the fact that you have no means by which to challenge the religious proclamations of your priesthood, regardless of how incoherent they might be. One is simply unable to pick up your scriptures and read them in your own language and draw your own conclusions – you need experts to think for you.
This is a classic case of theological self-interest in which power over people’s thoughts and behaviours is controlled by a handful of “god experts” with suspect religious piety whose sole aim is to maintain their power by telling everyone how expert they are and that the scriptures are too difficult for an average man or woman to understand. The catholic church had a similar system in the past, but they moved past that nonsense.
Let’s be honest – the idea that your god can only make himself understood through the work of self-righteous “scholars” and “experts” is patently ridiculous. If this all-powerful being must have the help of mere humans to get his message across, then it is likely that this being does not exist and you guys are are deluding yourselves with your intricately silly religious laws which – surprise, surprise – also seem to contribute to maintaining the power of the religious charlatans you call “scholars”.
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John: You see, that right there is the problem. All muslims are following some “expert” or another – you just don’t always agree that with each other’s experts. Al Baghdadi is an Islamic scholar who knows Arabic and has university credentials in your scriptures.
There’s a difference between following mainstream scholarship and following fringe views. The Letter to Baghdadi represents mainstream scholarship’s response to ISIS, and I follow the mainstream.
It is ALLEGED that Baghdadi has a PhD from some university of Iraq but beyond that we don’t know much.
John: Your religion is so esoteric and inaccessible that even those who believe it only believe because of what someone else has told them – by your own words you betray the fact that you have no means by which to challenge the religious proclamations of your priesthood, regardless of how incoherent they might be. One is simply unable to pick up your scriptures and read them in your own language and draw your own conclusions – you need experts to think for you.
Sure. What is it to you?
John: Let’s be honest – the idea that your god can only make himself understood through the work of self-righteous “scholars” and “experts” is patently ridiculous. If this all-powerful being must have the help of mere humans to get his message across, then it is likely that this being does not exist and you guys are are deluding yourselves with your intricately silly religious laws which – surprise, surprise – also seem to contribute to maintaining the power of the religious charlatans you call “scholars”.
Fine, we are deluded. Are you trolling because you want to save us from our delusions or is it because you don’t have anything better to do?
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Kmak,
The answer is that Johnnie has nothing better to do. Not only that, but he actually is an ignorant man with nothing better to do.
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Kmak
“Sure. What is it to you?”
That is as obtuse as it gets. What is it to me?
To me, the issue is that there are a significant number of muslims plotting to kill and maim non-muslims like me – they have the same absurd attitude to their faith as you. They follow the teachings of “experts” just like you, they, like you, are told that they are simply too ignorant to challenge the proclamations of their scholars. The only difference between their blind and mindless following of authority and yours is that they happen to follow people with a different interpretation of your superstitions to yours.
Neither they nor you – again according to your words – are capable of reading the texts yourselves and telling your authorities that they are wrong. I wouldn’t care that you are deluded, nor that you might want to go around wearing a dress and sporting a ridiculous beard and looking like a transgender person who can’t make up their mind, but the issue is that your faith’s insistence on wilful ignorance of it followers means that I have to wonder if my next subway trip will result in my being blown to pieces or riddled with automatic weapons fire because you guys are happy to go through life not taking responsibility for your own beliefs.
That goes beyond wilful ignorance, that is wilful stupidity. Your delusion isn’t just a source of great amusement for me, it is a source of great anxiety because people who choose to be both ignorant and stupid can be led to do anything – hence middle class and upper class muslims who have all the best that life could offer abandoning it all to go to Syria and throw homsexuals off of rooves, cut off the heads of non-muslims and blow themselves up.
If only they just used the brain that nature endowed them with – sadly you and your faith seems to suggest that using your brain is haram.
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Fine. We are dumb and deluded for believing in Islam. So how does that justify your trolling?
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John get a life. Yes it’s partly a sad mad world we live in. But stop blaming “THE Muslim”, otherwise you come across as just another racist idiot.
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Precisely
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kmak
“Fine. We are dumb and deluded for believing in Islam. ”
That isn’t what I said and you know it – you are deluded for believing in islam but I wouldn’t care if your delusions didn’t lead to mass murder. I said that you are being willfully ignorant and willfully stupid by basing your beliefs on what you are told to believe, not on what you can verify yourselves by reading your own scriptures.
The answer to extremism is not more blind following of scholars who dress like transgenders but a more critical examination of what you are told. In other words, tyhink
Burhanuddin1
“John get a life. Yes it’s partly a sad mad world we live in. But stop blaming “THE Muslim”, otherwise you come across as just another racist idiot.”
It’s a “sad mad world”?
It would be less sad and especially less mad if you guys stopped sniffing around the nether regions of “experts” who tell you what to think.
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John “… if you guys ….”
That’s the ignorant arrogant hypocritical racist attitude you are constantly displaying here. Stop accusing me of things I don’t do, capice?
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Final warning John. Get civilised or be banned.
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Burhanuddin1
“John “… if you guys ….”
That’s the ignorant arrogant hypocritical racist attitude you are constantly displaying here. Stop accusing me of things I don’t do, capice?”
Racist? What race is Muslim part of? What are their racial characteristics? What is their typical skin colour? Please advise.
Are you disagreeing with Kmak that you need to follow the proclamations of experts in your religion? If I’m wrong’ Kmak is wrong.
Paul
“Final warning John. Get civilised or be banned.”
No problem. Just note that I was repeatedly called a moron and idiot by Faiz on a couple of the other threads so I hope you are consistent with your comment policy.
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John, I’m trying to avoid living in a simplistic black and white world. From my understanding we live in a universe that makes sense.
Maybe you should check up if your understanding of “racism” is up to date
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Burhanuddin1
“John, I’m trying to avoid living in a simplistic black and white world. From my understanding we live in a universe that makes sense.
Maybe you should check up if your understanding of “racism” is up to date”
I’m not exactly sure what you are talking about here – I think we live in a world that makes sense. Islam isn’t part of the rational and logical universe that I think we live in. Does it make sense to believe that there was a flying beast of some sort was ridden up to heaven where a conversation with your god was had? Does it make sense to believe that trees and stones will talk and denounce jews hiding behind them? Can dead person be brought back to life by sacrificing a cow and hitting the dead person with a piece of it?
None of those Islamic truths make any sense whatsoever given what we actually know about our universe.
Racism…
“Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics. ”
http://archive.adl.org/hate-patrol/racism.html#.VwT9Zpx94sY
That sounds right to me. What is your definition of racism? Are Muslim or Islamic moral and social traits predetermined by biological characteristics? What are the biological characteristics of the “Muslim” race?
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John, I don’t think we live in the same world. I’m not gonna waste my time on you. So according to you Anti-Semitism i.e. Anti-Judaism is not a form of racism? As I said, get a life
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LOL, John. Let’s tell the whole story, no? The fact is that you have been consistently attacking people for being “barbaric”, “ignorant”, and/or “superstitious”, and talking about their private parts. You have even used foul language such as referring to people’s d***s and such other colorful language as bulls**t. I only responded in kind and I did not use foul language. So, nice try in saving face but you are nothing more than a deceitful liar who has been exposed repeatedly for your ignorance and stupidity. Case in point: your recent dismall performance regarding Islamic contributions to science as well as the Islamic view of Jews. Will you be seeing a proctologist soon? 😉
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Burhanuddin1
“John, I don’t think we live in the same world. I’m not gonna waste my time on you. So according to you Anti-Semitism i.e. Anti-Judaism is not a form of racism? As I said, get a life”
I agree – I know for a fact that we do not live in the same world. In my world I can use my senses and my brain to make choices and judgments about my life and conduct. Kmak says that Muslims are beholden to the “expertise” of scholars who tell you what to think and believe. Our universes are vastly different.
I think the truth hurts.
Sorry, but anti-semitism and anti-judaism are not the same. Semites are a race, Judaism is a religion. Anti-judaism is no more racist than anti-christianity.
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Faiz
I never attacked anyone as being barbaric – I said your silly religious laws that call for mutilation of thieves who steal a pair of earrings is barbaric and based on superstition. I used the word ignorant as a simple adjective to describe people living in a time when they were ignorant of the psychology of crime. I think that the people who came up with the idea that cutting off the hands of small-time thieves were probably ignorant of a lot of things – no insult there.
Sorry my superstitious friend, I never insulted anyone – and if insults were used on my part, they were directed at silly ideas and not people.
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John
Antisemitism (also spelled anti-Semitism or anti-semitism) is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against JEWS as an ethnic, RELIGIOUS, or racial group.[1][2][3] A person who holds such positions is called an antisemite. Antisemitism is widely considered to be a form of racism
source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
Maybe you should check up if your understanding of “racism” is up to date
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Burhanuddin1
Maybe there’s a reason you need someone in authority to tell you what to think and believe? Anti-judaism is a religious prejudice, anti-semitism is prejudice based on racial – i.e. biological, perceived or real – characteristics. Hence, the Nazis based their anti-semitic racism on ancestry – biological characteristics – and not on whether jews were practicing. Secular, atheistic and religious jews were all targeted because of their race, not their religion.
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John while enduring your diatribes against everyone who isn’t you or just like you I have noticed to morbidly obese elephant in the room. There are some underlying questions that you have thus far failed to answer. I still think these are pertinent as up until now you have failed to clearly express why you believe the way you do. So here goes….
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
6. NEW QUESTION: How do you define the ideal dress sense? Since you seem to have a problem with how some Muslim men dress?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
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LOL. Major burn by Patrice!!! That was awesome how you put Johnnie in his place!
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Ok John, fine, you are not a racist, you just discriminate against all Muslims based on religious prejudice. Happy now? Good boy
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Patrice
“You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!”
This is why you shouldn’t blindly follow other people. I answered Faiz’s questions but he has deluded himself (no surprise there) into believing that just because he did not like my answers it means that no answers were given. I can’t be bothered to go back and look through that whole thread to find my posts, but be my guest – if you want to go back through and address any of the points that I made, then fine.
I will address your claim that there was some divinely imparted knowledge of ancient Arabia even though I answered this silly claim in the other thread – there wasn’t any knowledge of ancient Arabian geology.
Try to think for yourself this time – one of the most important geological facts about Arabia is that it is sitting on a wealth of oil, yet your god seemed to have no idea of this. Maybe your god cannot see through dirt and rocks?
“6. NEW QUESTION: How do you define the ideal dress sense? Since you seem to have a problem with how some Muslim men dress?”
Again, it seems as though none of you commenters on this blog have any sense at all. The gender confused dress-sense of your pious guys is not the problem – the problem is that their dress (and dresses) are supposed to signify just how pious these guys are. Maybe they are, I just think that they’re trying too hard.
Patrice, let me ask you something. Do you speak classical arabic and have you studied the scriptures for years? Have you ever studied the Sana’a manuscript or the recently recovered Birmingham palimpset? If not how do you know that the claims you have made about your religion are true? All you have to go on is what you have been told to believe by other people who claim exclusivity in their ability to understand your scriptures.
Faiz is just upset because I mentioned the hadith that advises beliebers to drink camel piss as a medication. At least I didn’t mention the rest of that hadith – that would have been really ugly. Do you agree that drinking camel urine is a good idea even though it has been linked to the spread of the MERs virus?
Faiz
“LOL. Major burn by Patrice!!! That was awesome how you put Johnnie in his place!”
You’re easy to please.
Burhanuddin1
“Ok John, fine, you are not a racist, you just discriminate against all Muslims based on religious prejudice. Happy now? Good boy”
No I’m not a racist because there are no “Muslim biological characteristics” and hence no muslim race. And I haven’t discriminated against anyone – I think your religion is mere superstition that few can break away from because you are so brainwashed into believing that your god is so inept that you have to rely on a priesthood to tell you what his words means. An opinion is not discrimination.
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Johnnie boy, you’re much too high on yourself. You have been exposed as an ignoramus who Googles information on Islam and ignores anything that refutes your inane babble. Case in point: your brainless nonsense about “taqiyya”. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? Oh right! On every single Islamophobic website that peddles similar nonsense!
I notice that you ran away from responding to my refutation of your garbage on Islamic science. Hmmm, what a coincidence! You’ve run away from other discussions too and refused to answer the questions that have embarrassed you for most of your stay on this blog.
Oh and by the way, you ignore the part about the hadith which specifically states that the men who were given camel urine actually felt better! Also, it was not just camel urine. It was mixed in mixed in milk. Hmmm, why would you ignore that part? Oh right! Because you are a liar whose knowledge of Islam is based on Google searches.
In addition, were you aware that even in modern times, some medications are derived from animal urine? Case in point: Premarin. According to Chemical & Engineering News:
“As the name hints, Premarin is derived from pregnant mare’s urine. In the 1920s, scientists discovered that estrogens could be extracted from the human placenta and umbilical cord and used therapeutically. Ayerst, McKenna & Harrison researchers and their academic colleagues in time developed a commercial product that was a mix of several estrogens derived from the urine of pregnant women. Company researchers later learned that the estrogens in the urine of pregnant horses were the same as or similar to human estrogens. Given that horses produce a lot more urine than people do, the end result was a process to extract estrogens from horse urine, which gave birth to Premarin as a new product.” (https://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/83/8325/8325premarin.html)
Facts 1, Little John 0. It;s another shutout!
P.S.
Patrice knows a lot more about Islam than you do. I know that damages your high view of yourself, but you know next to nothing about Islam. Learning about Islam from you would be like learning about surgery from a mechanic. Better yet, it would be like learning about nuclear (or nucular) reactors from Homer Simpson! 😉
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John while that was a very insightful response you have failed to answer any of mine and (Faizs’ questions)
But I will indulge your poor attempt but only this once 😉
“nor that you might want to go around wearing a dress and sporting a ridiculous beard and looking like a transgender person who can’t make up their mind”
Your critique was that it looked ridiculous and confused sexually. Is this the infamous anus insecurity at work again. Would you prefer Muslim men wear chaps? You have changed your critique to that of the dress somehow signifying piety? This is a silly argument that only could originate from a truly silly sausage 😉
This is what Islam defines as piety:
“Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous”. – Qur’an 2:177
On to your final question. No i don’t know classical Arabic nor have I studied the early manuscripts of the Qur’an but neither do i as you do immediately dismiss anybody who has and that to acknowledge their insights as important. John may i ask you a question. Why do you dismiss their insights?
WAIT I ALMOST FORGOT!!!
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
6. NEW QUESTION: How do you define the ideal dress sense? Since you seem to have a problem with how some Muslim men dress?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
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Another brilliant response from Patrice. Johnnie gets put in his place once again!
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LOL, did anyone notice how nonchalantly John inserted the tidbit about Quranic manuscripts, like he knows something we don’t? Oooh, tell us Johnnie boy! What do you know about the Quranic manuscripts, especially the Birmingham manuscript? We’re all dying to know, since you obviously have done serious research on it…NOT!
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Johnnie said: “…you have to rely on a priesthood to tell you what his words means.”
Ehhh, wrong again! Islam doesn’t have a “priesthood”, you ignorant fool. We have scholars known as “ulama”. Just like you would learn science from scientists, or medicine from doctors, you learn about religion from religious scholars. It’s not that hard to understand if you pull your head out from that tight, dark place. You know what I’m talking about. 😉
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Faiz
” Also, it was not just camel urine. It was mixed in mixed in milk. Hmmm, why would you ignore that part?”
Because it sounded absolutely disgusting – you do know that drinking camel’s urine has been linked to the spread of the MERs virus don’t you? I hope you haven’t drunk it.
“Patrice knows a lot more about Islam than you do.”
Ahh! Patrice! Sighhhh! He sounds so wonderful!
Patrice
“Your critique was that it looked ridiculous and confused sexually. Is this the infamous anus insecurity at work again.”
My critique was that I don’t care that people want to express their piety by growing ridiculous beards and wearing dresses that make them look like confused transgendered people. My concern is that your willingness to be blindly led is problematic – followers of the so-called “so-called Islamic state” do the same. Keep trying though, thinking for yourself is a good thing.
“This is what Islam defines as piety”
Good then we agree – wearing dresses is not a sign of piety.
“On to your final question. No i don’t know classical Arabic nor have I studied the early manuscripts of the Qur’an but neither do i as you do immediately dismiss anybody who has and that to acknowledge their insights as important. John may i ask you a question. Why do you dismiss their insights?”
I think you would have to show me where I did all of this – my question is why would your god make his revelations so inaccessible that you have to study years and years in a dead language in order to interpret it? Isn’t Islam supposed to be simple? And why is he only comprehensible in one language?
If you don’t speak the language of your god, then I have it on good authority that you have no business trying to interpret your scriptures. You simply cannot know whether what you believe is actually what is in your scriptures – so whatever you think the quran truly says in your god’s obscure dead language is beyond your comprehension and ability to expound upon. In other words, my opinion is as good as yours.
“WAIT I ALMOST FORGOT!!!
Back to the unanswered questions:”
ooh! ooh! More self-delusion!
FAIZ
“Another brilliant response from Patrice. Johnnie gets put in his place once again!”
Sighhh! Patrice – he’s so wonderful!
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Patrice
“WAIT I ALMOST FORGOT!!!
Back to the unanswered questions”
Oh, and by the way, your repetition of the same questions – that have been answered is classic cult tactics used by all kinds of sinister groups to break down unsuspecting acolytes. Is that how you came to Islam Patrice?
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John your critique has changed again! Dresses are now a sign of blind adherence? Okey Doke….
“My concern is that your willingness to be blindly led is problematic – followers of the so-called “so-called Islamic state” do the same. Keep trying though, thinking for yourself is a good thing.”
I agree that being blind to the truth is deeply troubling. However what is even worse is not being able to define ones terms when asked. I think you know what i mean 😉
John onto your next point. You claim that the religion of Islam and her texts are ‘inacessable’. Islam is very simple and easy to define. If you had actually read the passage i quoted it actually announces the faith. Did you find it difficult to understand? Did you need to learn Arabic to understand that passage?
John you just don’t want to understand and you blame everyone else for your willful ignorance. I will indeed prove your dislike of scholars:
1. ” Kmak says that Muslims are beholden to the “expertise” of scholars who tell you what to think and believe.”
2. “The answer to extremism is not more blind following of scholars who dress like transgenders but a more critical examination of what you are told. In other words, tyhink”
You wrongly conflate respecting and taking expert opinions seriously with “blind following of scholars”. Why do you think that serious study should be without referring to experts? And who told you that you couldn’t understand the basic message of Islam without first learning Arabic? Once again John you seem to conflate comprehension with in depth knowledge. Neither of which you seem to possess.
But this is of course a mute point because….
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
6. NEW QUESTION: How do you define the ideal dress sense? Since you seem to have a problem with how some Muslim men dress?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
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More half-truths and shabby research from little John…
Do you acknowledge that the hadith states that the men felt better after drinking the mixture of milk and urine? And why did you hide that part?
The MERS virus is a NEW virus. In other words, in case you cannot figure it out, it didn’t infect humans until 2012. The CDC states:
“Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) is a viral respiratory illness that is new to humans. It was first reported in Saudi Arabia in 2012 and has since spread to several other countries, including the United States. Most people infected with MERS-CoV developed severe acute respiratory illness, including fever, cough, and shortness of breath. Many of them have died.” (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/mers/)
Also, while there MAY be a link between camels and the spread of the virus, this is not yet conclusive, though the CDC does recommend avoiding contact with camels, including eating camel MEAT in addition to avoiding drinking camel urine, which evidently is still done by Bedouin tribesmen (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/mers/risk.html).
In addition, human viruses have been found in many animals, such as chickens and pigs. People don’t stop eating the meat from these animals, do they? And yet, there is a risk in contracting infectious diseases. I hope you haven’t eaten any chicken or swine lately! 😉
Funny how you neglected to mention these additional facts. I wonder why?
You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with people’s private parts and anything to do with excreta. You may want to seek professional help!
And no, I have never drank camel’s urine, because I have no need to. We have modern medicine, thanks in large part to the work of Islamic scientists. I have, however, tried to take the Prophet’s timeless advice in seeking out medical treatments and eating foods (though I do get tempted by junk food too) which he recommended due to their health benefits. The list includes:
Cumin
Honey
Figs
Dates
Funny how you ignored this and have remained fixated on camel’s urine. Weird…
Funny how you also ignored the information I provided on how horse’s urine has been used a source for hormonal treatment of post-menopausal women. I wonder why?
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Johnnie said:
“In other words, my opinion is as good as yours.”
Ehhh, wrong again! The opinions of an ignoramus who does Google searches matter little when compared to a learned individual who has actually done research. Your “opinions” have been shown to be based on ignorance, shabby research and outright lies. Why on earth would anyone give credence to such pathetic “opinions”? Put another way, why would anyone give credence to Homer Simpson’s opinions on nuclear reactors? LOL…
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Patrice, there are a few more questions you can add to the list of unanswered questions. Johnnie is falling behind on his studies, I think. LOL.
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Patrice
“John your critique has changed again! Dresses are now a sign of blind adherence? Okey Doke….”
Actually it hasn’t.
“I agree that being blind to the truth is deeply troubling. ”
Really? You think that being blindly led is the same as being blind to the truth? I should explain the difference but surely the difference is obvious?
“John onto your next point. You claim that the religion of Islam and her texts are ‘inacessable’.”
Sorry, once again, not my claim. This guy claims that it requires years of study in a dead language in order to interpret Islam……
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/03/29/fight-until-they-say-there-is-no-god-but-god-explained-by-hamza-yusuf/
Don’t blame me. I think anybody should be able to pick up your scriptures and both understand and interpret them in any language – I think you will find that it is muslim apologists who make the claim that you have to speak arabic and study for years to even come close to knowing what on earth your god was trying to say. That discounts you and I – but it’s a bigger problem for you because you believe this stuff. Even Kmak agrees that your scriptures are esoteric and inaccessible.
“John you just don’t want to understand and you blame everyone else for your willful ignorance. I will indeed prove your dislike of scholars:
1. ” Kmak says that Muslims are beholden to the “expertise” of scholars who tell you what to think and believe.”
2. “The answer to extremism is not more blind following of scholars who dress like transgenders but a more critical examination of what you are told. In other words, tyhink””
This is just sad. Very sad. It’s not the scholars it’s the blind adherence to their authority. It isn’t that hard Patrice – and I had heard so much about you! Faiz told me you were just wonderful. Then again, those who want to learn and then come across awkward and blatantly horrific content in your scriptures are often told….wait for it…..you have to learn arabic to understand it! Go figure.
“You wrongly conflate respecting and taking expert opinions seriously with “blind following of scholars”. Why do you think that serious study should be without referring to experts? And who told you that you couldn’t understand the basic message of Islam without first learning Arabic?”
Wow, where did I say this? I said you can’t understand the basic message of Islam without learning arabic? Must be your delusion gene at work again.
The problem you have here is that there are thousands of ISIS folks taking their experts’ opinions seriously and blindly following them – experts are causing the problem. Critical thinking is lacking, challenging authority is lacking. Sure experts are a good thing, but why are there so many muslims from good families with good middle class lives blindly following Baghdadi and others like him?
“But this is of course a mute point because….
Back to the unanswered questions”
You do realize that repetitious questioning is a classic cult tactic to break down unsuspecting acolytes and brainwash them into submission? Is that how you came to Islam Patrice?
Faiz
“Do you acknowledge that the hadith states that the men felt better after drinking the mixture of milk and urine?”
Look dude, if you want to drink camel piss then drink camel piss – mix it with whatever you want. It’s not my cup of tea.
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Johnnie, avoiding answering more questions huh? What a shock!
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John this is getting dull and frankly rather repetetive. So here we go one more time….
Here are my points towards you.
1. You have in the past and still do even now, ridicule Muslims who respect experts in their religion as being “blind adherence”. This is false. I repeat false. That is not blind but intelligent. It is only blind when the people you are referring to do so without thinking for themselves. There is no evidence on this blog of people doing that. This purely originates from your own imagination.
2. Yes you did refer in a derogatory fashion to scholars as having “expertise” implying that they had none. I quoted your own words dude. No good changing the goalposts when you get caught out.
3. John you have demonstrated little to no evidence in your “critiques” of Islam that you have done any research into the topic but instead reduced yourself to insults, mockery, and outright lies such as your Taqiyya comment. You have insulted Arabs in the previous thread and here by referring to their traditional garb as a dress.This is disgraceful behaviour from a person who claims to be rational.
4. You still haven’t answered the questions put to you with regards to your foundational beliefs. How can anyone have a meaningful discussion with you when you refuse to be frank and honest about where you are coming from.
FYI I’m not a Muslim. Stop making assumptions about people with whom you know nothing about.
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Patrice
No kidding! Your repetitious interrogation is also cultish.
“You have in the past and still do even now, ridicule Muslims who respect experts in their religion as being “blind adherence”. This is false. I repeat false. That is not blind but intelligent.”
Actually, it is blind – very, very blind. You need to spend years studying classical arabic in order to be able to determine that the experts’ interpretations are true – not my claim, but the claim of muslim apologists. This is a perfect illustration of following blindly. Your issue is with them not me.
“Yes you did refer in a derogatory fashion to scholars as having “expertise” implying that they had none. I quoted your own words dude. No good changing the goalposts when you get caught out.”
oh please. Don’t go all logic on me – why start now? You believe that the moon was split in two even though most of the people on earth at the time failed to record such a momentous event and that you can resurrect dead bodies by hitting them with a steak. Logic isn’t subjective. And let’s be clear neither you nor I nor most muslims can possibly know how “expert” these god experts are because we cannot cross-check their claims ourselves due to our lack of years of training in a dead language.
“John you have demonstrated little to no evidence in your “critiques” of Islam that you have done any research into the topic but instead reduced yourself to insults, mockery, and outright lies such as your Taqiyya comment. You have insulted Arabs in the previous thread and here by referring to their traditional garb as a dress.This is disgraceful behaviour from a person who claims to be rational.”
Again Patrice, you just can’t get past your dogma and keep tripping over your own inconsistency. No-one except for a handful of god experts can say for sure who has or hasn’t interpreted your scriptures correctly. And you wouldn’t – couldn’t – know any better. You have to blindly accept that what you have been told is true. So there are is no “correct” way to interpret the scriptures other than what you have been told. So just go back to being a concern troll and stop trying to ğpretend that you have special insights into a stack of superstitious writings that muslim apologists themselves claim you could not possibly interpret or understand.
And again – it really is not hard – my critique was of overt displays of piety, sorry you got your feelings hurt dude, but I think the fate of thousands of innocent victims of these pious experts in your faith outweighs that.
“You still haven’t answered the questions put to you with regards to your foundational beliefs. How can anyone have a meaningful discussion with you when you refuse to be frank and honest about where you are coming from.”
Now you are being willfully stupid. Meaningful conversations don’t consist of cultish repetitive interrogation of questions already answered elsewhere. My foundational beliefs are irrelevant – we’re talking about your Islamic beliefs here. The reason you might be finding it difficult to have a meaningful conversation is that you can’t defend your beliefs without trying to determine the beliefs of critics so that you can make tu quoque arguments and deflect attention away from the fact that your faith is superstitious and rationally indefensible.
“FYI I’m not a Muslim. Stop making assumptions about people with whom you know nothing about.”
My bad – or your taqiyya?
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Little John said:
“Meaningful conversations don’t consist of cultish repetitive interrogation of questions already answered elsewhere.”
LOL! Does anyone else see the irony of this oafish statement? Hmmm, where have I seen “cultish repetitive interrogation of questions already answered elsewhere”? Oh right! In little John’s own posts! Case in point: his repetitive rants on “taqiyya”, which I refuted elsewhere. And yet, like the “cultish” buffoon that he is, this specimen keeps repeating the same nonsense about “taqiyya”! WOW!
Only a brainless Google scholar peddles the “taqiyya” conspiracy theory. Little John is so immersed in the theory that he questions when a non-Muslim with much more knowledge about Islam claims to be a non-Muslim and hurls accusations of possible “taqiyya”. Talk about “cultish repetitive interrogation of questions”…Talk about ironic!
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Patrice –
”
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?”
For apostasy (public declaration that one is no longer a Muslim), no. That is an indicator of an extremely barbaric, fascistic, and uncivilized ideology, clearly called for by Muhammad, deeply engrained in sharia.
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So Stardusty simply tries to answer the question…without actually answering the question. How do you define “civilized”? And who decides what is “civilized” and what is not?
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Each of us decides for ourselves what is moral, civilized, right, and wrong.
In my view it is uncivilized, immoral, and barbaric to enforce a system of robbery, compulsion in religion, murder, enslavement, violent conquest, and extortion, all of which Muhammad did by his recitation and his example. The IS are faithfully fulfilling the clear texts of the prophet’s words from Allah and his example.
You may say these things fit your definition of civilization if you wish, perhaps because they are the word of Allah and then by definition good. That is the theologically consistent view of the IS, since the IS is the purest Islamic organization on Earth.
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Utter rubbish by a person with a deep prejudice against Islam.
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Stardust Psyche, thank you for proving my point! You use a subjective yardstick with which to measure what it means to be “civilized”. It is your own opinion, nothing more.
Regarding ISIS allegedly being “the purest Islamic organization on Earth”, that is absolute rubbish, as brother Paul already pointed out. Thousands of scholars and millions of learned Muslims have come to the exact opposite conclusion. Whose views do you think counts more? 😉
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“Each of us decides for ourselves what is moral, civilized, right, and wrong.”
No we don’t. We approach right and wrong based on a number of factors both existential and inherent such as upbringing, personal experience, level of knowledge (or understanding), societal consensus, and cultural presuppositions. Your ‘decision’ is an amalgamation of all of these factors working together with varying degrees of influence depending on the situation. Inherent referring to ones instincts which have been fine tuned over at the very most 100,000 years of evolution.
However with that being said if you are expressing just an ‘opinion’ against someone elses’ ‘opinion’ how can you hold Prophet Muhammad, ISIS or anyone else as blameworthy? They could just say “to hell with your morality”? You might have to fight ISIS sure but you couldn’t blame them for their actions any more than for the colour of their hair.
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Faiz
What is the point of cutting off people’s hands if they steal a pair of gold earrings? What does your god want from you and your horrible sharia hell society? What good does it do to mutilate criminals? Does it please your god when you inflict this kind of agony of fellow human beings?
Do you (or your god) get a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about people’s hands being severed and blood squirting from the nubs and them screaming in agony? You (and that Intellect guy) seem really bloodthirsty for mutilation – is that something you were born with or does it take a blind faith in the justice of sharia to make you that way?
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Little John, are you feeling comfortable resurrecting that topic again? I seem to remember you running away. 😉
We’ve already been through this. But since you are bringing it up again:
Back to the unanswered questions:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
And if you could please learn to read, I never made the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so there is nothing for me to answer Johnnie boy! You made that claim and I have been asking you to explain how you reached that conclusion. Thus far, you have failed to work up the courage to answer me. When you do try, you fail miserable and only embarrass yourself further! Boy, your butt must be really hurting! Remember, the butthurt will be with always, young padawan. The dark side, I sense in you…
Back to the drawing board with you Johnnie!
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John is the kind of paranoid troll that won’t stop until he has the last say. He probably thinks having the last say=winning.
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Kmak
Where did you get the idea that I’m paranoid?
Faiz
So you don’t deny that you get a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about petty criminals getting their hands chopped off, and you have absolutely no idea what your silly religious law is supposed to accomplish?
No surprises there.
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If I am right about John being a paranoid ‘last say’ troll, then this post of mine will not be the last post of this discussion.
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Kmak
“If I am right about John being a paranoid ‘last say’ troll, then this post of mine will not be the last post of this discussion.”
Another marvel of Islamic reasoning. See here…
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/04/06/is-this-a-revelation-of-god-shaykh-hamza-yusuf/
Where do you get the idea I am paranoid?
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Lol. See what I mean?
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Kmak
Actually no.
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“No we don’t. We approach right and wrong based on a number of factors both existential and inherent such as upbringing, personal experience, level of knowledge (or understanding), societal consensus, and cultural presuppositions. Your ‘decision’ is an amalgamation of all of these factors working together with varying degrees of influence depending on the situation. Inherent referring to ones instincts which have been fine tuned over at the very most 100,000 years of evolution. ”
Sorry Patrice, but you seem to have contradicted yourself. First you say we do not each decide, then you give a very nice summary of how each of decides anything.
I suppose that on determinism free will is an illusion, and therefore the sense that we truly decide anything as individuals is also an illusion. If that is what you mean then I agree.
But, philosophical discussions about the illusion of free will aside, functionally we each have the sense of ought, the sense of right and wrong, and on these things each of us makes our own individual judgments.
“However with that being said if you are expressing just an ‘opinion’ against someone elses’ ‘opinion’ how can you hold Prophet Muhammad, ISIS or anyone else as blameworthy?”
Based on mutually agreed upon criteria. If you do not agree that murder, rape, conquest, and extortion are wrong then there is nothing I can do to absolutely prove to you they are.
However, if you and I mutually agree these things are wrong then I can objectively demonstrate to you that these are core Islamic principles that the IS is fulfilling.
“They could just say “to hell with your morality”?”
Indeed, they can and do.
” You might have to fight ISIS sure but you couldn’t blame them for their actions any more than for the colour of their hair.”
On determinism that is correct.
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We seem to agree on more than we did at the beginning. However the problem with saying that whether or not IS is Islamic or not is one thing. It would not matter in the grand scheme of things because the real challenge is to convince them that despite that it is wrong to do what they do. What criteria would hold them to?
Do we just fight them and impose our views but this is arguably the kind of action that caused IS to exist in the first place.
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Little John,
Still not answering my questions, I see…
No surprises there!
But, nevertheless, here they are again:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
And if you could please learn to read, I never made the claim that one system was more “civilized” than another, so there is nothing for me to answer Johnnie boy! You made that claim and I have been asking you to explain how you reached that conclusion. Thus far, you have failed to work up the courage to answer me. When you do try, you fail miserable and only embarrass yourself further! Boy, your butt must be really hurting! Remember, the butthurt will be with always, young padawan. The dark side, I sense in you…
Now, we’ve already dealt with the complexities of the Sharia, such as restrictions as to when a person can and cannot be punished for stealing. A person who steals due to desperation or hunger is not to be blamed. I would not support punishing such a person because it would be against the spirit of the Sharia. But a criminal who steals people’s hard-earned money to satisfy his own greed is not deserving of mercy, in my opinion. I would have no problem with seeing such a person suffer, just as I would not have any problem seeing a child murderer getting what he deserves. Send them to the gallows!
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Kmak,
Little John typically does not have the last word because he usually runs away after enduring a lot of humiliation, only to resurface on another thread where he repeats his idiocy. But he very paranoid, since he will often accuse people of “taqiyya,” LOL! I wouldn’t be surprised if he believes in the “stealth jihad” theory, and a Muslim “fifth column” which is trying to secretly take over Europe and America.
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Faiz
“But a criminal who steals people’s hard-earned money to satisfy his own greed is not deserving of mercy, in my opinion. I would have no problem with seeing such a person suffer, just as I would not have any problem seeing a child murderer getting what he deserves.”
Stealing a pair of earrings is the same as child murder? Is stealing earrings as bad as child molestation in the sharia view?
But thanks for being honest – you do get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about mutilating people and you have absolutely no idea why your god wants you to act with such barbarism.
“But he very paranoid, since he will often accuse people of “taqiyya,” LOL! I wouldn’t be surprised if he believes in the “stealth jihad” theory, and a Muslim “fifth column” which is trying to secretly take over Europe and America.”
That just shows your paranoia – I’m still not sure why kmak thinks I’m paranoid.
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LOL, little John. You just keep embarrassing yourself further every time you open your mouth! When did I say that “stealing a pair of earrings is the same as child murder”? You really need to pull your head out from your backside. I said that just as I would not feel bad for a child murderer being put to death, I would not feel bad for a thief who steals other people’s hard-earned wealth to satisfy his own greed. See the difference, you sorry excuse for a “rational” person?
Your paranoia is just as obvious as your stupidity. It takes a paranoid person to accuse others of “taqiyya”, because the “taqiyya” nonsense is peddled by the same people who believe in the Muslim “fifth column” conspiracy theory. I bet that you believe that Muslims are secretly trying to take over America and Europe. Am I right? Come one, admit it!
Still not answering my questions, I see…
No surprises there!
But, nevertheless, here they are again:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
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John
You said;
Stealing a pair of earrings is the same as child murder? Is stealing earrings as bad as child molestation in the sharia view?
But thanks for being honest – you do get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about mutilating people and you have absolutely no idea why your god wants you to act with such barbarism.
I say;
My friend. We talked about these child molestation and barbarism over and over. If you keep twisting it as if it is Islam but not the west and keep insulting us, I will reply the insult to you. I am warning you, Islam is not barbaric or child molestation thing per se but to reduce them. If you keep repeating your insults and turn the blind eye of what the western law has done to encourage Church Fathers, sleeping with male and female children for the Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger i.e. Pope Benedict to come out and apologize to the victims of his Church Fathers and the rape and molestation of children and sleeping with prostitutes by Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Eddie Lee Long etc. then I will be oblige to insult you back for lying about our religion and ignoring the barbarism and child molestations inherent in the western law.
Thanks.
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Pigs do have sense to search for food. An able body who do not want to search for food or knowledge and is waiting for God to spoon feed him like baby or provide every knowledge writing in a book is worse than pigs because pigs have knowledge to search for food.
Note: Pigs have knowledge to search for food.
Thanks.
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Faiz
“When did I say that “stealing a pair of earrings is the same as child murder”? ”
You didn’t say that – and I never said you said that. But you did say that thieves should suffer just like child murderers should suffer – that is, be painfully mutilated in some way. Stealing a pair of gold earrings can get you your hands cut off, so logically, someone stealing earrings will suffer like someone who killed a child.
But I am curious, what provision does your god make in his divine scriptures for molested children? Does he have an opinion?
Also, how would you define “child-murder”? In secular laws, people legally remain children until roughly around the age of 16-18. Does your god consider, let’s say, people who have a smidge of pubic hair on their genital area children? Would killing such people be considered child murder in your god’s eyes?
Intellect
Why the hate? Cutting off people’s hands is barbaric – and most people, including yourself I would imagine, would not celebrate seeing someone’s hands cut off.
“Note: Pigs have knowledge to search for food.”
Profound, dude.
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Little John,
Still not answering my questions, I see…
No surprises there!
But, nevertheless, here they are again:
1. How do you define “civilized” and who determines what is and is not “civilized”?
2. Death penalty?
3. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about Arabia’s past geological history?
4. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the Arabs would become wealthy and compete with each other in the construction of tall buildings?
5. How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know about the “sexual revolution” and the emergence of new sexually transmitted diseases?
You can run all you want. But you can’t hide!
Before I answer any more of your brainless questions from you, you need to answer these and other questions that you have been avoiding like the plague. Only sensible answers, please. Nonsensical answers will be rejected and the questions will remain! How’s your butthurt? 😉
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sorry Faiz I’ve had enough of John. He’s not coming back
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John
You said;
Intellect
Why the hate? Cutting off people’s hands is barbaric – and most people, including yourself I would imagine, would not celebrate seeing someone’s hands cut off.
“Note: Pigs have knowledge to search for food.”
Profound, dude.
I say;
Sharia is there to reduce armed robbery in the western countries that mutilates people everyday, homicide, suicide, rape, incest, adultery, fornication, gang raping in prison and outside prison.
After lengthy discussions with you and repeating over and over by you to ignore the mutilation of people everyday by armed robbers and other vices by western law and Sharia is there to reduce the mutilation and you keep repeating is what a pig will not repeat because pig has knowledge to search for food and take care of its children.
Thanks.
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Paul, I understand. 😦
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