Today’s Christian god as indulgent Dad with his ‘kids’.

Peter Kreeft is a leading Catholic apologist whose theology (unusually) is very similar to that of Evangelical Christians.  He seems to have adopted their surgery depiction of God as well.

God as the Allmatey rather than the Almighty

Screen Shot 2016-08-05 at 18.56.04



Categories: Christianity, God, Islam

23 replies

  1. No two people have exactly the same point of view or interpretation of Scripture or relationship with God. Some might take Jesus at his word when he said that those who do the will of his father are his brothers and sisters and mothers. Others are so focused on the majesty of our sovereign God that any fatherly aspect to him is entirely erased from the narrative. Truth is – God’s both. While either/or kind of thinking is pretty easy for us, God’s not easily defined or categorized or labelled. The words we can use to describe what He’s like pale in comparison to what he actually is – something that our words just don’t have the ability to convey.

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  2. Oh please.

    Paul, you worship a god that commands you to cut off the hands of petty thieves – that makes him a petty god. A good father is more exalted than a cruel, distant, and unknowable god whose pettiness controls even the most basic bodily functions.

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  3. LOL, Fido is not answering the question!

    News flash, Fido. This post is about Islam. It is about your god. So answer my question and stop deflecting! LOL!!!

    Why does your god claim to love people and then threatens them with eternal torture in a lake of fire?

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    • poor Fail

      People die in the presence of god’s full glory, unless when he looks into your soul and sees the reflection of the son granting eternal life – that’s all it is, no cruelty, just god revealing himself within creation in his full glory. It’s not hard mini man.

      Now you, you angry little munchkin man. Your petty little god wants you cut off the hands of petty thieves and you do it even though whatever entity you worship is completely unknowable.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. Correction: This post is NOT about Islam.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. D

    You said;

    D

    August 5, 2016 • 8:02 pm

    poor Fail

    People die in the presence of god’s full glory, unless when he looks into your soul and sees the reflection of the son granting eternal life – that’s all it is, no cruelty, just god revealing himself within creation in his full glory. It’s not hard mini man.

    Now you, you angry little munchkin man. Your petty little god wants you cut off the hands of petty thieves and you do it even though whatever entity you worship is completely unknowable.

    I say;
    Where did God said “People die in the presence of god’s glory, unless when he looks into your soul and sees the reflection of the son granting eternal life-that’s all it is, no cruelty? It is not people dying D, but people punishing by Jesus Christ in hot fire. Those that are being punished by Jesus in the hot fire have already died and Jesus your God raised them to punish them in hot fire. Jesus is not love at all but cruel.

    Thief hand is not cut until caught in the 3rd time and if the stealing is out of hunger, the thief will not get his hand cut but will be rehabilitated and helped.

    The law is there to help humans to reduce social vices like rape, armed robbery, homicide, suicide, drug, gang etc. which is cancer in the Western countries who do not follow the Sharia law.

    Thanks.

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    • intellect

      “Thief hand is not cut until caught in the 3rd time and if the stealing is out of hunger, the thief will not get his hand cut but will be rehabilitated and helped.

      The law is there to help humans to reduce social vices like rape, armed robbery, homicide, suicide, drug, gang etc. which is cancer in the Western countries who do not follow the Sharia law.”

      Cutting off the hands of petty thieves reduces social vices like armed robbery and homicide? LOL!!! Your god is petty – why doesn’t he just rehabilitate the thief since your god ‘s supposed to be so memerciful? And if he is so merciful, why doesn’t your petty god require muslims to be merciful and not maim people for stealing minor objects?

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  6. D

    You said;
    And if he is so merciful, why doesn’t your petty god require Muslims to be merciful and not maim people for stealing minor objects?

    I say;
    It is not petty object. Islamic jurists must check the value of the object and it must reach certain high value before it is taken as worth punishment. The punishment must not be carried for the first and second time for the same person. A small gold ring can buy you a car. Coby Bryant’s small ring for his wife to appease her for cheating can buy a lot of cars.

    It is social justice to prevent any social vices. If thieves are not punished, there will be more thieves and society will be un merciful. Allah is merciful that is why He controls social vices by punishing thieves for the third time when caught. All these was explained to you over and over and you have seen the wisdom it. But you repeat it, to cover your God who is 3 in 1 God and a God-Man who died that can not be found in the Bible.

    You must learn Islam in an un biased way like how the German Islamophobes did and are now converting to Islam.

    Thanks.

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  7. Kreeft,a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism,therefore who actually accepts ALL the Catholic doctrines, is famous above all for his book “Between Heaven and Hell”(1982)(where 3 men meet in Purgatory):

    Amazon describes it as:

    “On November 22, 1963, three great men died within a few hours of each other:

    C.S. Lewis(who wrote the Narnia Chronicles,and “Mere Christianity”, John F. Kennedy

    and Aldous Huxley(who wrote the dystopia “Brave New World”) .

    All three believed, in different ways, that death is not the end of human life. Suppose they were right, and suppose they met after death.

    How might the conversation go?

    Peter Kreeft imagines their discourse as a modern Socratic dialog–a part of The Great Conversation that has been going on for centuries.

    Does human life have meaning? Is it possible to know about life after death? What if one could prove that Jesus was God?

    Combining logical argument and literary imagination, Kreeft portrays Lewis as a Christian theist,

    Kennedy as a modern humanist and Huxley as an Eastern pantheist. Their interaction involves not only good thinking but good drama.”

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  8. Faiz asked:

    “Why does your god claim to love people and then threatens them with eternal torture in a lake of fire?”

    It seems it is not the case,again here we have 2 apparently contradictory statements by Jesus in the Same Book,that of Matthew.

    Matthew 10:28

    “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body

    but cannot kill the soul.

    Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy(or lose)

    both soul and body in hades

    (that is the Greek word for the place of the dead,or sheol in Hebrew).”

    But in the Olivet Discourse,in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats Jesus says:

    Matthew 25:46 says:

    “Then they(the Goats) will go away to eternal punishment,

    but the righteous(the Sheep)

    to eternal life.”

    Before Jesus had said in the parable,Matthew 41-45

    ““Then he will say to those on his left(the Goats), ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,

    into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

    I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’”

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  9. Faiz asked:

    “Why does your god claim to love people and then threatens them with eternal torture in a lake of fire?”

    A.The Greek word can be translated as “destroy” or “lose”,it depends on the CONTEXT.

    And since Jesus actually says KILL body but can NOT KILL the soul,the logical Greek translation,by context,is “destroy”,not “lose”.

    The soul is not eternal,it can be destroyed.

    B.This seems to contradict the “eternal punishment” given to the goats in the parable.

    And that they are thrown into an “eternal fire”.

    C. But one way of reconciling this is that the eternal fire destroys their soul,/b>

    and that total destroying of the soul is the eternal punishment they get.

    D.In the Catholic church,a literal fire has been rejected.

    E.And if you search EVERYWHERE in the OT or NT,every single time the words “eternal life” are used,it is literally always only for the saved,those in heaven,or in Daniel it is only used for the saved,in the time of the resurrection.

    That tells me something,that to “destroy the soul” in Matthew means to deprive it of eternal life.

    The phrase “eternal life” literally never appears in reference to the damned in hell,

    not that they will not be punished,but that there punishment will end one day,their soul will not have “eternal life”.

    Daniel 12:1-2

    “But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

    Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake:

    some to eternal life,

    others(the damned) to shame and everlasting contempt.”

    F. The reason people say the punishment is eternal is because of Revelation,where the Beast(Antichrist,who is said in Revelation to be a MAN)

    and Satan

    and the False Prophet are:

    Revelation 20:10

    “And the devil, who deceived them,

    was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,

    where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

    They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

    We know the Devil is not a man,and

    we know the Beast is a man,

    but is the False Prophet really a man?

    To renconcile this with Matthew the “THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever”,if taken literally,refers only to the Devil and the False Prophet(who is NOT a man),and not to a man(the Beast).

    It is assumed by most the False Prophet is a man,but Revelation doesn’t say it is a man,and the False Prophet could be an evil angel who took the form of a man.

    Hebrews 13:2 says angels can materialize as humans:

    “Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers,

    for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.”

    F. Another reason is Revelation 14:10-11.

    We all have to die,but St Paul says “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23,which is strange since we all die,good and bad,unless he meant that one loses the possibility of eternal life.

    It is about those who followed the Beast(Antichrist):

    “They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

    And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

    There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

    The best article on the Biblical reasons,lots of examples, for rejecting an eternal torment are to be found here:

    http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/myth-of-eternal-torture/chapter-5.php#.V6U2UZgrLIU

    It says:

    ” First of all, although this passage might at first glance give the impression that God will sadistically torment people in his presence forever and ever, it does not say that.

    All it states is that these rebellious people will be tormented with burning sulfur and that “the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever”—there’s a difference.

    “Smoke” indicates that they will be burned up and “torment” would refer to the anguish experienced while being burned up.

    This perfectly coincides with what the Holy Spirit inspired David to write in Psalm 37:20: “But the wicked shall perish… Into smoke they shall vanish away””

    The article also says:

    “In the case of Revelation 14:9-11, this passage is solely referring to those who have chosen to worship the beast and receive his mark during the 7-year tribulation period………………….The second reason we can’t take Revelation 14:9-11 as a reference to never-ending conscious torment is because this passage has a “sister text”

    which uses the very same terminology wherein the meaning can’t possibly be mistaken.

    This sister text is from the Old Testament and is therefore the foundation upon which Revelation 14:9-11 rests.

    ISAIAH 34:9-10 a

    “Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! (10) It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever.”

    Reading this passage we get the strong impression that the kingdom of Edom will burn forever and ever without end but the entire rest of the chapter renders this interpretation impossible.

    The rest of the chapter clearly shows that Edom will become a desolate desert inhabited by owls, jackals and hyenas.

    Verses 5 & 6 state that the people of Edom will be “totally destroyed” and slaughtered, and Obadiah 10 & 18 back this up, stating that Edom will “be destroyed forever”—consumed by the fire of God’s judgment and wrath.

    Therefore the statement “it will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever” cannot be taken to mean what it might casually seem.

    Observe how Isaiah 34:9-10 and Revelation 14:10-11 use the same terminology:

    Her dust (will be turned) into burning sulfur

    He will be tormented with burning sulfur

    Its smoke will rise forever

    The smoke of their torment rises forever

    It will not be quenched night and day

    There is no rest day or night

    This proves that the terminology used in Revelation 14:10-11 cannot refer to eternal conscious torment, because just as the entire rest of Isaiah 34 renders this interpretation impossible for Isaiah 34:9-10 a,

    so the entire rest of the bible renders this interpretation impossible for Revelation 14:10-11.

    Please notice that Isaiah 34:10 plainly states that Edom will burn and “not be quenched night and day.”

    This proves that the phrase “night and day” or “day or night” does not refer to an unending amount of time.

    The burning sulfur that destroyed Edom was not quenched “night and day” until the entire kingdom was destroyed.

    Likewise, the wicked people spoken of in Revelation 14:10-11 will have no rest from their torment “day or night” until the burning sulfur totally destroys them.

    “Burning sulfur” is simply another name for the lake of fire (see Revelation 21:8); so being “tormented with burning sulfur” is a reference to the second death.

    For further proof, Paul stated that He worked and prayed “night and day” (1 Thessalonians 2:9; 3:10), but He did neither non-stop, and both working and praying ceased when He died.

    Acts 9:24 and Revelation 12:10 give additional support that this phrase refers to a temporary period of time.

    The third reason we can’t regard Revelation 14:10-11 as a reference to eternal conscious torment is because there are other texts in the very same book of Revelation that also use the same terminology as Revelation 14:10-11,

    but like Isaiah 34:9-10, these texts also distinctly refer only to complete destruction by fire:

    Chapter 18 of Revelation deals with the fall of Babylon, which is the result of God’s judgment. “Babylon” here prophetically refers to a modern-day city that will be the governmental center of Satan’s kingdom on earth. Chapter 18 speaks of “the smoke of her burning” (verses 9 & 18) and of “her torment” (verses 10 & 15), and 19:3 states,

    “The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.” This terminology gives the impression that “Babylon” will be eternally tormented and burn forever and ever, but Revelation 18:8 makes it clear that

    “She will be consumed by fire”—completely destroyed—just as this entire present earth will also be destroyed (see 2 Peter 3:10-11).

    Thus, the statement “the smoke from her goes up forever and ever” can only refer to complete and final destruction.

    These passages, which use the terminology of smoke rising forever, coincide with God’s total destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah which is a biblical “example of what is going to happen to the ungodly” at the second death (2 Peter 2:6). In the Genesis account of Sodom & Gomorrah’s destruction, Abraham saw “dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace” (19:28).

    Fourthly, there’s even further reason why we can’t take Revelation 14:10-11 as a reference to never-ending conscious torture. Notice clearly from this text where the tormenting is taking place: “He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.”

    Being tormented with burning sulfur is referring to suffering the second death (again, Revelation 21:8);

    according to this text this “death” will take place in the presence of God and his holy angels.

    So whether we view “tormented with burning sulfur” as a reference to eternal conscious torture or as a reference to the anguish of being completely burned up, it is certain that, in either case, it will take place in the very presence of God.

    This presents a problem for the view of eternal conscious torment as it shows a God who sadistically tortures his human enemies in his presence forever and ever.

    Yet it presents no such problem for the view of everlasting destruction as it shows God present at the second death to judge his human enemies and execute their sentence of total, everlasting extermination by his chosen instrument of fire.

    As already covered in Chapter One, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 states that ungodly people “shall be punished with everlasting destruction

    from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” (KJV) “and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power” (NIV), not tortured in the presence of the Lord forever and ever…………………………..Such is the case with Revelation 14:10-11.

    The terminology used in this text is used elsewhere in scripture and only refers to literal everlasting destruction, not eternal conscious torment. (For further proof of this passage see http://www.jewishnotgreek.com under “answering critics.”)”

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  10. Faiz asked:

    “Why does your god claim to love people and then threatens them with eternal torture in a lake of fire?”

    There is a third view of hell,it is that of the Eastern Orthodox church,its head is the Patriarch of Constantinople/Istanbul,and it is SO different that it surprises all.

    A.In John 4:8 it says:

    “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

    B.And Hebrews 12:28-29:

    ” Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful,

    and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our “God is a consuming fire.”

    Here the author quotes Deuteronomy 4:24:

    “For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.”

    C.So in the Eastern Orthodox church,there is a hell,

    but the eternal fire is the fire of God’s love.

    God is love=God is a consuming fire. The fire of hell is God’s love,

    and those in hell hate God so much that the display of God’s love is irritating,a torment,hateful to them.

    There is no literal fire but the metaphorical fire that is God’s love.

    For example,this article states the Eastern Orthodox position:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-simpson/understanding-hell-as-the_b_705988.html

    “per St. Isaac the Syrian:

    “It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all.

    But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it.”

    (Homily 84)

    Hell in this view is understood as the presence of God experienced by a person who, through the use of free will, rejects divine love.

    He is tortured by the love of God, tormented by being in the eternal presence of God without being in communion with God.

    God’s love is the fire that is never quenched, and the disposition and suffering of the soul in the presence of God who rejects him is the worm that does not die. Whether one experiences the presence of love as heaven or hell is entirely dependent on how he has resolved his own soul to be disposed towards God, whether communion or separation, love or hatred, acceptance or rejection.

    Hell, then, is not primarily a place where God sends people in his wrath, or where God displays anger, but rather,

    it is the love of God, experienced by one who is not in communion with him. The figurative, spiritual fire of God’s love

    is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it through communion in the body of Christ, but bottomless despair and suffering to the person who rejects it, and chooses to remain in communion with death.”

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  11. LOL, Fido still cannot answer the question! What the hell does it mean when the little mutt says:

    “People die in the presence of god’s full glory, unless when he looks into your soul and sees the reflection of the son granting eternal life – that’s all it is, no cruelty, just god revealing himself within creation in his full glory.”

    No cruelty??? Really? So, burning people in hell for eternity is not cruel given that your god supposedly “loves” everyone? Are you deliberately lying or just completely ignorant of your own Bible?

    Shall I embarrass you once again by quoting from your Bible about a certain “lake of fire”? Shall I talk about the “gnashing of teeth”? 😉

    Like

    • Fail

      You are embarrassing yourself my angry little mini man. I answered your stupid questions and you are avoiding mine. Your gullible mini brain never questions your own man-made religion, so you simply are unable to give a coherent answer.

      Like

  12. LOL, Fido! No, you didn’t answer the question. You just tried to dance around it.

    People don’t just “die in the presence of god’s full glory”. They are resurrected to be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire if they are judged to be sinful. In the lake of fire, they will then be tormented forever. That is your god who claims that he “loves” everyone. Here is what your Bible says, you pathetic rabid mutt. Enjoy!

    “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

    “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

    “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

    “…and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:50)

    And let’s not forget good old Mark! This one takes the cakes, LOL!!!

    “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.” (Mark 9:43)

    So Fido, if your hand causes you to sin, you better cut it off before your god thrown you into hell to burn for eternity! But don’t forget: he STILL loves you! 😉

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  13. Hey Faiz
    There is a time to show love and a time to conduct the business of Justice.

    God loves people but if people do not respond to his love and his approach and repent, then no amount of love is going to help you when God has to judge you.

    A judge in court can be loving but he is still a judge and must carry out the law, do you think he should let murderers go free or rapist to walk away scott free?

    Where is the justice for those who have been left behind or violated?

    Jesus said…Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    In Christianity the price for men’s sins were paid on the cross and so if you reject GOD’S LOVE which Jesus spoke about in John…

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    So if people reject God’s love then they go to the devil and his angels are going why? Because they are still full of sin and wickedness.

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  14. Hi defendchrist.

    I agree that there is a time to love and a time to be just. But that is precisely why the statement “God loves you”, which Christians often times tell non-Christians, is contradictory and deceptive. If God will punish people with eternal torment, then He cannot possibly love them.

    At best, what Christians should really say is:

    “God loves you, but His love has an expiration date.”

    It seems to me that the “love” Christians refer to is conditional and limited.

    Like

  15. i sort of dis/agree with everyone. God is both [in the jewish bible] it depends how you worship Him. the problem with the King part is that a king “uses” his subjects, and servants might expect reward. therefore, we say that God is our Father [not biologically, of course. that’s left for idol worshippers] no father [healthy, at least] “uses” his kids, he loves them more than they love themselves, and the guidence he gives them is for the kids favor more than anything. and a greatful child understand what his father does for him and therefore doesn’t serve his father for reward, just out of a pure love.
    on the other hand, the Father/Son thing can cause us to take advantage of God and comprimise on the fear and awe we should have in His Presence [which is the whole world] therefore we have to have an underling knowlege that he is our Master and King….

    Liked by 1 person

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