‘Br Paul vs Christian Hyde Park Speakers Corner’ (again)

I keep finding videos on YouTube. Here is another one where I’m discussing war and peace in the Qur’an with a Christian. It was a difficult conversation and I probably should not have bothered as you will see.



Categories: Bible, History, Quran, Speakers Corner

28 replies

  1. br Paul, here is a piece on Quran 9:5 in its historical context and how it was understood by the Prophet, his companions, and classical understanding by scholars.

    An Historical Examination Of The Sword Verse – Surah 9:5

    https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/22/an-historical-examination-of-the-sword-verse-surah-95/

    Liked by 1 person

    • And here is a piece on Surah 9:29 (Jizyah)

      Answering Jihad: “Fight Against Those Who Do Not Believe” – Quran 9:29

      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/28/answering-jihad-fight-against-those-who-do-not-believe-quran-929/

      Shamoun, 1, 2, 3 will be commenting 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • Last link I will paste (for now lol)

      Here is Compilation of 164 misquoted Quran verses used in arguments by anti-Islam polemicists and their respective refutations

      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/27/most-misinterpreted-verses-of-the-quran/

      Really easy article to find out when a verse was revealed, how it was interpreted by classical to contemporary scholars.

      (It was an indirect response to Shamoun’s pal) 🙂

      Like

    • Misquoted Verse #8

      9:5 Kill the disbelievers wherever you find them.
      This verse, often called “the verse of the sword”, has been misquoted in a manner similar to the previous verses. First, we shall provide the verse in its context:

      9:5-6 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

      Having presented the verse in context, we can analyze it properly. Dr. Maher Hathout gives an explanation on the historical context of the verse:

      This verse was revealed towards the end of the revelation period and relates to a limited context. Hostilities were frozen for a three-month period during which the Arabs pledged not to wage war. Prophet Muhammad was inspired to use this period to encourage the combatants to join the Muslim ranks or, if they chose, to leave the area that was under Muslims rule; however, if they were to resume hostilities, then the Muslims would fight back until victorious. One is inspired to note that even in this context of war, the verse concludes by emphasizing the divine attributes of mercy and forgiveness. To minimize hostilities, the Qur’an ordered Muslims to grant asylum to anyone, even an enemy, who sought refuge. Asylum would be granted according to the customs of chivalry; the person would be told the message of the Qur’an but not coerced into accepting that message. Thereafter, he or she would be escorted to safety regardless of his or her religion. (9:6). (Hathout, Jihad vs. Terrorism; US Multimedia Vera International, 2002, pp.52-53, emphasis added)
      Therefore, this verse once again refers to those pagans who would continue to fight after the period of peace. It clearly commands the Muslims to protect those who seek peace and are non-combatants. It is a specific verse with a specific ruling and can in no way be applied to general situations. The command of the verse was only to be applied in the event of a battle. As Abdullah Yusuf Ali writes:

      The emphasis is on the first clause: it is only when the four months of grace are past, and the other party show no sign of desisting from their treacherous design by right conduct, that the state of war supervenes – between Faith and Unfaith. (Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur’an, Text, Translation and Commentary, emphasis added)

      If the pagans would not cease their hostilities towards the Muslims, then they were to be fought, especially since they were living in the land of an Islamic state. Dr. Zakir Naik writes concerning this verse:

      This verse is quoted during a battle. …We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: “Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them”. Today if I say that the American President said, “Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them” without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war. …Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, “Kill the Mushriqs (pagans) where ever you find them”, during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them. Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer to the allegation that Islam promotes violence, brutality and bloodshed. It says:
      “If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge.” [Al-Qur’an 9:6]

      The Qur’an not only says that a Mushriq seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security? This is exactly what Allah (swt) says in the Glorious Qur’an to promote peace in the world. (SOURCE, emphasis added)

      Dr. Naik makes some very interesting observations about the verse. Indeed, it is truly amazing how Islam-haters will ignore God’s infinite mercy in their attempt to malign Islam. God has always given human beings a way out of any suffering, and has only ordained fighting as a last resort. Muslim scholars have written much commentary on these Qur’anic verses explaining the historical context in such great detail so that there may be no misconceptions. We have quoted extensively from various commentators on these verses and there is no need to repeat the same material again. We will provide one more commentary before moving on. Professor Shahul Hameed writes on verse 9:5:

      This is a verse taken from Surah At-Tawba. This chapter of the Qur’an was revealed in the context when the newly organized Muslim society in Madinah was engaged in defending themselves against the pagan aggressors. The major question dealt with here is, as to how the Muslims should treat those who break an existing treaty at will. The first clause in the verse refers to the time-honored Arab custom of a period of warning and waiting given to the offenders, after a clear violation. That is, they will be given four months’ time to repair the damage done or make peace. But if nothing happens after the expiry of these forbidden months, what should be done? This is what the present verse says. According to this verse, fighting must be resumed until one of the two things happens: Either the enemy should be vanquished by relentless fighting. That is what is meant by {then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem [of war]}; or they should repent, establish prayers and pay zakah, etc. This is one of those verses of the Qur’an which are likely to be misunderstood, if quoted out of context. We must understand that this fighting was against a people who forced the Prophet and his companions to leave not only their own homes but all their property and even their hometown of Makkah to Madinah. Once the Muslims were organized into a community in those lawless times, the rules to be followed by the Muslims were clearly laid down, even in the matter of war. Since Islam is a comprehensive system, no human activity could be ignored. And given the nature of mankind, we cannot imagine a situation where fighting is completely ruled out either. As can be seen, the above injunctions on fighting is not on an individual level, but only in the case of a society that strives to flourish and thrive as a nation. But even here the norms are clear: fighting is only in self defence or for the establishment of justice; and always fighting is the last option. And no one is allowed to transgress the limits set by God. (SOURCE, emphasis added)

      Ibn al-`Arabi, in his commentary on the Qur’an, writes:

      “It is clear from this that the meaning of this verse is to kill the pagans who are waging war against you.” (Ahkam al-Qur’an: 2/456, emphasis added)
      Shaykh Sami al-Majid also makes some very interesting points in his discussion on this verse:

      If we look at the verses in Sûrah al-Tawbah immediately before and after the one under discussion, the context of the verse becomes clear. A few verses before the one we are discussing, Allah says:

      “There is a declaration of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom you have contracted mutual alliances. Go then, for four months, to and fro throughout the land. But know that you cannot frustrate Allah that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.” [Sûrah al-Tawbah: 1-2]
      In these verses we see that the pagans were granted a four month amnesty with an indication that when the four months were over, fighting would resume. However, a following verse exempts some of them from the resumption of hostilities. It reads:
      “Except for those pagans with whom you have entered into a covenant and who then do not break their covenant at all nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them until the end of their term, for Allah loves the righteous.” [Sûrah al-Tawbah: 4]
      So when Allah says: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them and beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)” we must know that it is not general, since the verse above has qualified it to refer to the pagan Arabs who were actually at war with the Prophet (peace be upon him) and those who broke their covenants of peace. This is further emphasized a few verses later where Allah says:

      “Will you not fight people who broke their covenants and plotted to expel the Messenger and attacked you first?” [Sûrah al-Tawbah: 13] (SOURCE)
      Therefore, the context of the verse within the Surah makes it clear that this refers to those who are persistent in their hostilities and attacks against Muslims, and it is applied in battle only. We recommend that one reads Shaykh Sami Al-Majid’s full article entitled There is no Compulsion in Religion.

      http://www.islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/329-yusuf-estes-correcting-quran-misquotes

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  2. I came across this comment under the video on YouTube:

    Leeban Hassan19 hours ago

    You want a summary

    Brother Paul “Do you want to learn the truth or Attack Islam…”

    Sunglasses “I’m here to expose..”

    In conclusion, after listening to this discussion I must say brother Paul gave a lesson in how a muslim and a non-muslim should understand Islam. Before even answering any loaded questions he first presented a foundation in which we must first understand, which is the Methodology (Manhaj).

    Now the methodology is to Interpret or understand the Qur’an with the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) (Authentic narrations of the prophet known as Hadeeths). As brother Paul beautifully said “….The Sunnah explains the Qur’an…….They are infused together……”. As the Qur’an was sent down to the Prophet as Allah said in the Qur’an “(This is the) Book (the Quran) sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW), so let not your breast be narrow therefrom, that you warn thereby, and a reminder unto the believers.” (7:2).

    Hence, the prophet knows when the verses were revealed, to whom, the place and why it was sent down. Aisha said, “Have you not read the Quran? Verily, the character of the Messenger of Allah was the Quran.” Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 1342.

    So in order to understand the Qur’an we must first of all see how it was understood by our Prophet then the best three generations after him (Salaf) and through scholars who understand this whole concept such as Abu Hanifah, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmad Hanbal (The four schools of thought).

    After brother Paul clarified this methodology clearly and effectively he then proceeded to tackling the verse (9:5) posed by the SG (Sunglasses). You find after explaining the context of the verse numerous times ‘SG’ seemed intent on illustrating his deficient understanding of the verse completely disregarding the repeated efforts of brother Paul explaining the context of the verse.

    The issue was very clear rather than looking at the context itself you can’t just isolate a verse without the explanation of the Sunnah to suit your objectives which was clearly to ‘expose’ when in reality the Qur’an will always be a proof against you. With brother Paul sensing ‘SG’ was clearly lacking the intelligence or sincerity to comprehend the information giving unto him he chose to read the passage from it’s beginning from 9:1 all the way through.

    Surprisingly, once the context started to open from the first verse onwards you find the Qur’an itself being an evidence against his false understanding of the verse. As the Qur’an from the very first verse illustrates that indeed a pact was broken which gave them the license from god to fight back those who nullified the treaty except those whom kept to the treaty. To my surprise, as a viewer off course, was astounded to find ‘SG’ says in 23:50 “You got different translation right….My one doesn’t say what you saying…”. To which brother Paul replies with an emphatic statement “Do you want to learn the truth or Attack Islam”.

    I honestly believe only sincere christians show the utmost respect in truly trying to understand and learn about Islam so that their understanding is broadened. Those who are intent on taking information from misguided sources and running down to speakers corner to just waffle and not learn then this is a bad representation of the good sincere christians and I’m sure we can agree these guys are not the people who represent the christians.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Br Paul, you said at around 8 min into the video that you as a Sunni Muslim follow the Quran, The Sunnah, (hadeeths) and how it was understood by the Sahaba.

    At around 8:55 you say “The Quran and Hadeeth are absolutely clear you must not kill noncombatants.

    I wonder what your spin is on this Sunnah and how it was understood by the Sahaba.

    The Prophet (ﷺ) passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” I also heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, “The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle.” Bukhari 3012 Book 56 Hadith 221, Vol 4, Book 52 Hadith 256

    l Sa’b bin Jaththamah said that he asked the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) about the polytheists whose settlemnst were attacked at night when some of their offspring and women were smitten. The Prophet(ﷺ) “They are of them. ‘Amr bin Dinar used to say “they are regarded in the same way as their parents.” Abu Dawood 2671

    You further state around 9:30 “The great scholars of Islam… I mention Shafi..” and then at around 10:30 “If your gonna behaving Islamically you don’t kill innocent people. Its absolutely HARAM… All the four schools of thought would agree that terrorism is an executable offense “

    Paul since you mention Shafi specifically I wonder what you think of Imam Shafi’s position on the punishment for Killing NON MUSLIMS.
    In book O titled Justice in section 1.2 subtitled “The following are not subject to retaliation” , we read…”a Muslim for killing a non-Muslim;”.

    So there is no justice for a Muslim who murders a NON MUSLIM.
    Also there is no retaliation for “a father or mother (or their fathers of mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring; -5- nor is retaliation permissible to a descendant for (A: his ancestor’s) killing someone whose death would otherwise entitle the descendant to retaliate, such as when his father kills his mother.”

    So not only can Muslims murder NON Muslims without fear of retaliation, but Muslim parents, and parents of parents can kill their own Muslim offspring.
    At 10:56 you are asked if “terrorists” are not Muslims you respond emphatically “No I’m not saying that I’m not takfering them…

    If they are Muslims then according to the Quran they are the best of people. Surah 3:110.

    So by using your methodology, we can see that in Islam it is permissible to kill NON Muslim woman, and children, and that the Muslim murderers according to the Quran are the best of people.

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    • I forgot to add,

      Not only can Muslims murder Non Muslim with out fear of retaliation or punishment, but Muslims can murder their own Children or Grand Children with our fear or retaliation or punishment. (Sounds like honor killing to me)

      So according to the Sunnah It is permissible for Muslims to slaughter an entire family while committing a home invasion in the middle of the night.

      But Muslims can just randomly kill non Muslims with impunity.

      And Muslims parents can slaughter their on Children and even Grand Children.

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    • LOL utter rubbish. You sure do have a deep hatred fermenting there dude

      Like

    • Utter Rubbish?

      Funny I used the same sources you appeal to, the Quran, The Sunnah and one of the four schools of Islamic thought that you mentioned by name. And you call it “Utter Rubish”?

      You sure do have a deep hatred for your own Islamic sources if you are going to call them “utter Rubbish”?

      Like

    • Not at all. You are like the Jew haters who take a few decontextualised statements from the Bible to damn the Jews. Same prejudice.

      Like

    • Paul instead of making false accusations, maybe you can interact with the FACTS.

      Fact 1. Both Bukkari and Abu Dawood have the following AUTHENTIC Narration.

      he Prophet (ﷺ) passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” I also heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, “The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle.” Bukhari 3012 Book 56 Hadith 221, Vol 4, Book 52 Hadith 256

      So please tel us what does this mean?

      Fact 2. Imam Shafi (The first Muslim scholar u mentioned) says the following.

      In book O titled Justice in section 1.2 subtitled “The following are not subject to retaliation” , we read…”a Muslim for killing a non-Muslim;”. and…

      ” there is no retaliation for “a father or mother (or their fathers of mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring; -5- nor is retaliation permissible to a descendant for (A: his ancestor’s) killing someone whose death would otherwise entitle the descendant to retaliate, such as when his father kills his mother.”

      So what are the implications if you can kill someone with out risk of punishment?

      Fact 3. The Quran says that Muslims are the BEST of creatures.

      So if ISIS Muslims are still Muslims that means that no matter what they are doing or how repulsed you are by them they are still better than the best of the Kuffar.

      So how can the best of creatures do any wrong if they are the best?

      Like

    • Yawn. Selective half mis-quotes. Do you do Jew baiting as well in your spare time?

      Like

    • Bulugh Al-Maram, Ibn Hajr:

      383 – It is not meant that women and children are killed intentionally, but if they were killed by ACCIDENT then the Messenger of Allah means they are not to be blamed. (Bulugh Al-Maram, compiled and referenced by Imam Ibn Hajr, page 476)

      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/prophets-first-expedition-invasion-of-waddan/

      It is interesting how YOU left out the dozen Hadith from the Prophet PROHIBITING killing of women and children, you pick and choose what suits your agenda.

      I don’t know about Imam Shafi’i, even if he said this, THIS GOES AGAINST what the Prophet said:

      Sahih Bukhari:

      Narrated ‘Ubada bin As-Samit: Allah’s Messenger said to us while we were in a gathering, “Give me the oath (Pledge of allegiance for: (1) Not to join anything in worship along with Allah, (2) Not to steal, (3) Not to commit illegal sexual intercourse, (4) NOT TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN, (5) Not to accuse an innocent person (to spread such an accusation among people), (6) Not to be disobedient (when ordered) to do good deeds. The Prophet added: Whoever amongst you fulfill his pledge, his reward will be with Allah, and WHOEVER COMMITS ANY OF THOSE SINS WILL RECEIVE THE LEGAL PUNISHMENT IN THIS WORLD FOR THAT SIN, then that punishment will be an expiation for that sin, and whoever commits any of those sins and Allah does not expose him, then it is up to Allah if He wishes He will punish him or if He wishes, He will forgive him.” So we gave the Pledge for that. (Sahih al-Bukhari 7213: Book 93, Hadith 73)

      I think Imam Shafi’i was speaking about accidental death, then a parent wouldn’t get punished.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Well said. Thanks for digging up those references. You did the work for me. 😊The guy is just a troll.

      Like

    • No Paul it wasn’t well said, not well said at all. Lets examine what he wrote..

      First he writes…

      “It is not meant that women and children are killed intentionally, but if they were killed by ACCIDENT then the Messenger of Allah means they are not to be blamed. (Bulugh Al-Maram, compiled and referenced by Imam Ibn Hajr, page”

      Ok then so if you break into a kuffar’s house, to kill the man of the house and steal his stuff then its ok if you “accidentally kill everyone in it.”

      “Accidentally” committing familyside while in the process of a home invasion is still murder. But this has other implications. For instance A jihadi’s target may be military or police or apostate shia, but during his detonation he kills woman and children then its all halah from allah. As you pointed out. So either way it is permissible for the Jihadi’s to slaughter innocent woman and children as long as they intended to kill male combatants.

      So thank you for agreeing with me on that point.

      Your point on Shafi speaking “about accidental death, then a parent wouldn’t get punished.” Is null and void since he has a section devoted to accidental death. So if that was the case then there would be no need for a second section.

      EIther way no matter what a Muslim does he is still a Muslim and he according to your quran is the “BEST OF CREATURES” So it really doesn’t matter if he rapes, pillages, plunders, kills woman and children or does what ever he wants. As long as he is a Muslim he is still the best.

      Like

    • Dont know what you been smoking, but let me rephrase:

      1. The Prophet categorically forbids parents killing their kids. IT IS FORBIDDEN:

      Sahih Bukhari:
      Narrated ‘Ubada bin As-Samit: Allah’s Messenger said to us while we were in a gathering, “Give me the oath (Pledge of allegiance for: (1) Not to join anything in worship along with Allah, (2) Not to steal, (3) Not to commit illegal sexual intercourse, (4) NOT TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN, (5) Not to accuse an innocent person (to spread such an accusation among people), (6) Not to be disobedient (when ordered) to do good deeds. The Prophet added: Whoever amongst you fulfill his pledge, his reward will be with Allah, and WHOEVER COMMITS ANY OF THOSE SINS WILL RECEIVE THE LEGAL PUNISHMENT IN THIS WORLD FOR THAT SIN, then that punishment will be an expiation for that sin, and whoever commits any of those sins and Allah does not expose him, then it is up to Allah if He wishes He will punish him or if He wishes, He will forgive him.” So we gave the Pledge for that. (Sahih al-Bukhari 7213: Book 93, Hadith 73)

      Even if we agree that this is Shafi’i’s opinion, you need to know that he is NOT our Prophet. The Prophet we follow tells us that this is FORBIDDEN and anybody doing so must get punished.

      2. The Prophet FORBIDS what you ascribe to him, the Hadith you tried pinning to him, he was speaking of ACCIDENTAL death:

      Bulugh Al-Maram, Ibn Hajr:
      383 – It is not meant that women and children are killed intentionally, but if they were killed by ACCIDENT then the Messenger of Allah means they are not to be blamed. (Bulugh Al-Maram, compiled and referenced by Imam Ibn Hajr, page 476)

      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/prophets-first-expedition-invasion-of-waddan/

      Let me just leave you with the many Hadith where the Prophet forbade such heinous things:

      Sahih al-Bukhari:
      Narrated `Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah’s MESSENGER DISAPPROVED the killing of women and children. (Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Hadith 257)

      Sahih Muslim:
      It is narrated on the authority of ‘Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah. HE DISAPPROVED of the killing of women and children. (Sahih Muslim Book 19, Hadith 4319)

      Sunan Ibn Majah:
      It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet saw a woman who had been killed on the road, and HE FORBADE KILLING women and children. (Sunan Ibn Majah, volume 4, Book 24, Hadith 2841)

      Bulugh al-Maram:
      Ibn ‘Umar (RAA) narrated that The Messenger of Allah saw a woman who was killed in one of his expeditions, so HE DISAPPROVED THE KILLING of women and children. Agreed upon. (Bulugh al-Maram Book 11, Hadith 1313)

      Sunan Abi Dawud:
      ‘Abd Allaah bin (mas’ud) said “A woman was found slain in one of the battles of the Apostle of Allaah. THE APOSTLE OF ALLAAH FORBADE to kill women and children. (Sunan Abi Dawud Book 14, Hadith 2662)

      Muwatta Imam Malik:
      Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and HE DISAPPROVED OF IT AND FORBADE THE KILLING of women and children. (Muwatta Imam Malik Book 21, Hadith 9)

      3. Rape, mass genocide is ONLY found to be permitted in THE BIBLE:

      Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Good News Translation (GNT) – “When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11 you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. 12 TAKE HER to your home, where she will shave her head, cut her fingernails, 13 and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. 14 Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since YOU FORCED HER TO HAVE INTERCOURSE WITH YOU, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

      THE god JESUS YOU WORSHIP ALLOWS THESE FILTHY THINGS. Jesus (god) also permitted Moses and his soldiers to marry (rape) prepubescent girls (BIBLE):

      Jubilee Bible 2000 – “But all the FEMALE CHILDREN that have not known a man by lying with him KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18

      Webster’s Bible – “Translation But all the FEMALE CHILDREN that have not known a man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18

      Living Bible (TLB) – “Only the LITTLE GIRLS may live; you may KEEP THEM FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18

      The ‘Voice’ Translation of the Bible which was produced by a two dozen or more scholars and pastors, give an accurate rendering for “yourselves”, to mean that the warriors can do anything they “desire” to the female children:

      “VOICE
      As for the virgins, you can take them, as you DESIRE.” – Numbers 31:18

      Shaye J. D. Cohen who is the Littauer Professor of Hebrew Literature and Philosophy in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations of Harvard University, explains that “ for yourselves” is clear that that Moses’s soldiers could use the females “sexually”:

      “Moses enjoins upon the returning warriors to kill their Midianite female captives who have lain with a man, but ‘spare for yourselves every young woman who has not had carnal relations with a man’; WE MAY BE SURE THAT ‘FOR YOURSELVES’ MEANS THAT THE WARRIORS MAY ‘USE’ THEIR VIRGIN CAPTIVES SEXUALLY.52 The law in numbers differs from the law in Deuteronomy- perhaps the most significant distinction is that the law in Deuteronomy does not care whether the captive is a virgin or not- but it too permits Israelite warrior to marry (or ‘marry) a foreign woman.” (The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties [University of california Press, Berkeley / Los Angeles / London, The Regents of the University of California, 1999] by Shaye J. D. Cohen [chapter 8] page 255 – 256)

      In footnote 52, Professor Shaye J.D. Cohen continues, this time explaining the Hebrew word “lakhem” (lachem) that it is “sexual” and this is how it was the understood by ancient scholars:

      “I do not know why the new Jewish version omits ‘for yourselves’; the Hebrew LAKHEM IS UNAMBIGUOUS. That the intent of ‘FOR YOURSELVES’ IS SEXUAL OR MATRIMONIAL IS OBVIOUS; the passage is correctly understood by Rabbi Simeon Yohai in the Sifrei ad loc (177 212H).” (The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties [University of california Press, Berkeley / Los Angeles / London, The Regents of the University of California, 1999] by Shaye J. D. Cohen [chapter 8] page 255 – 256 – [Footnote 52])

      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/08/07/a-detailed-historical-examination-of-numbers-3118/

      Jesus/god you worship allows these filthy/evil things. No such thing is to be found in the Quran,

      Ouch 😉 🙂 :p

      Liked by 1 person

    • Flying Pir wrote…

      “The Prophet categorically forbids parents killing their kids. IT IS FORBIDDEN:”

      Flying I hate to shoot you down but you can quote all the weak or strong hadeeths you like, of what ever you prophet is alleged to have said. Does not take away from the FACT that according to at least one Islamic school of thought, that is prized by Paul Williams. There is no punishment for a Husband who kills his wife, or parents or grand parents who kill their children and or grand children.

      Like

    • Flying HIGH lol

      You wrote in response to the word of God teaching that Israelite men can keep virgin woman for marriage purposes.

      “Jesus/god you worship allows these filthy/evil things. No such thing is to be found in the Quran,”

      So marriage is a filthy evil thing for you. ANd your right the nothing like that can be found in the Quran… Since the Quran ordains just having SEX with slave woman even if they are already married.,

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    • Revolve, I dont give a flying spaghetti if Shaffi said that. Shaffi was a human being, and could have been influenced by his culture. Islam categorically forbids it.

      And you claimed that my report I showed was “weak” hahaha are you serious? If you were in a live debate and you said Sahih Bukhari was weak, people would actually laugh at you for many years:

      Sahih Bukhari:
      Narrated ‘Ubada bin As-Samit: Allah’s Messenger said to us while we were in a gathering, “Give me the oath (Pledge of allegiance for: (1) Not to join anything in worship along with Allah, (2) Not to steal, (3) Not to commit illegal sexual intercourse, (4) NOT TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN, (5) Not to accuse an innocent person (to spread such an accusation among people), (6) Not to be disobedient (when ordered) to do good deeds. The Prophet added: Whoever amongst you fulfill his pledge, his reward will be with Allah, and WHOEVER COMMITS ANY OF THOSE SINS WILL RECEIVE THE LEGAL PUNISHMENT IN THIS WORLD FOR THAT SIN, then that punishment will be an expiation for that sin, and whoever commits any of those sins and Allah does not expose him, then it is up to Allah if He wishes He will punish him or if He wishes, He will forgive him.” So we gave the Pledge for that. (Sahih al-Bukhari 7213: Book 93, Hadith 73)

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    • When I say “filthy” it is for many reasons

      1. the Bibe you follow allows and permits prepubescent marriages(rape) with female children BIBLE:

      Here are three accurate translations which show that the verse only speaks about ‘female children’:

      Jubilee Bible 2000 – “But all the FEMALE CHILDREN that have not known a man by lying with him KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18

      Webster’s Bible – “Translation But all the FEMALE CHILDREN that have not known a man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18

      Living Bible (TLB) – “Only the LITTLE GIRLS may live; you may KEEP THEM FOR YOURSELVES.” – Numbers 31:18

      All the Christian exegesis refer to Deuteronomy 21:14 as evidence that these female children (In Numbers31:18) were married off by force AND they were raped according to your own BIBLE:

      Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Good News Translation (GNT) – “When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11 you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. 12 TAKE HER to your home, where she will shave her head, cut her fingernails, 13 and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. 14 Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since YOU FORCED HER TO HAVE INTERCOURSE WITH YOU, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

      https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/08/07/a-detailed-historical-examination-of-numbers-3118/

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  4. Paul all quotes (even yours) are selective, but can you demonstrate how anything I quoted was a “mis quote” since I copied and pasted directly from the Islamic sources

    Like

    • Revolve

      You said;
      EIther way no matter what a Muslim does he is still a Muslim and he according to your quran is the “BEST OF CREATURES” So it really doesn’t matter if he rapes, pillages, plunders, kills woman and children or does what ever he wants. As long as he is a Muslim he is still the best.

      I say;
      Do you know some Muslims will be punished in hell fire? If you do not know, I am telling you today a Muslim who rapes, pillages, plunders, kills woman and children will be punished in hell fire. You are concerned about the “best of creatures”. Do not be disturbed about that, even in the Bible there is good names and praise to those who believed God of Abraham is one, only, alone and no one else.

      It is just a praise to Christians, Jews and those who believed God of Abraham is only one and alone and all were Muslims before prophet Mohammed. A Muslim before prophet Mohammed is the one who believed what God said He is in the scriptures and might no pray like Muslims pray today but still Muslim. It is just a praise but it does not mean they can continue doing bad.

      Christians are SAVED if they continue to kill and rape and it is justification by faith alone not deeds according to Paul not Williams.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Intellect wrote…
      “Do you know some Muslims will be punished in hell fire?”

      Yes Intellect all Muslims like everyone else who hates the cross will go to hell.

      But Intllect did you know that according to your prophet most of the torment of the grave is do to URINATION and URINE not killing wives or children lol

      Like

  5. Revolve

    You said;
    Yes Intellect all Muslims like everyone else who hates the cross will go to hell.

    I say;
    Where is your proof? The Bible? Which has ghosts coming out from their graves like a blockbuster movies? This blockbuster ghosts could not be recorded on the other gospels but only one gospel?

    The Bible as it is today cannot decide who will or will not go the hell. Give me a proof otherwise you lied.

    Any one who rape without sincere repentance will go to hell whether he is a Christian. That is why Christians repents from their sins but will not depend on the cross.

    If the cross alone can save people then the Christian rapist will go to heaven and that is not justice to the victims or armed robbers who are Christians.

    Example of Christian rapist, armed robbery, adultery etc.

    Pastor Jimmy Swaggart
    Pastor Eddie Lee Long
    Church Fathers molesting children and Pope Benedict has to apologize to the victims of the Church Fathers because they are the worse offenders in sex, drug, nudity, etc. Where is the cross here? The cross has proved it cannot save anyone except sincere repentance.

    Pastor Jimmy Swaggart was crying for repentance when he was caught with prostitutes. Where is the cross here. I taught the cross had already save him as a Christian.

    So is for any Christian who is caught fornicating or sinning and he will cry and ask for repentance. WHERE IS THE CROSS?

    The cross cannot save anyone or put any one in heaven except sincere repentance.

    Thanks.

    Christians are not infallible or special and they do sin like anyone else.

    Like

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