Common beliefs

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Categories: Christianity, Islam

41 replies

  1. Paul

    What is the quranic concept of “messiah”? I’ve seen nothing in the quran that shed lights on what allah is talking about when he uses the term. And what does it mean that jesus was the messiah only for the jews?

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    • Graham you are taking the p*ss. We have discussed this twice before. Go and troll somewhere else..

      Liked by 1 person

    • Well, I think you avoided the question the last time I brought this up.To be honest, no one has ever provided a meaningful answer to the question of what the quran means when it uses the word “messiah”.

      Regardless, I have never actually heard anyone say that the msulim position was that jesus was the messiah only for the jews – I don’t think the quran says that.

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    • I believe that I’ve explained what messiah means in our language. It’s not a strange word in our language rather it’s from its roots. However, you’re the ones who have no idea what it means since you have taken it from another language and another culture then you have immersed it in the Greco Roman paganism, and the result was horrible.
      Therefore, you fine many questions given to Sh Ahmed Deedat (RA) that why muslims don’t believe that Jesus is God if they believe that he is messiah. His answer has always been is who said that
      Messiah = God 🙂 !
      Quran is very clear of what the messiah means beside the linguistic meaning. Messiah in Quran and Sunnah is a great prophet supported by the holy spirit with great miracles sent for the children of Israel only. That’s it! and that’s the most important thing about him.
      The other conceptions of what messiah means are not but conjectures might( be/be not) concluded from the Hebraic scriptures such as that he must be from the Davidic lineage. Also, in the Dead Sea scrolls, scholars found that jews were waiting more than one type of messiahs such as the (priest one) .
      From Quran, we know that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was pledged to service Allah and his house(Al Masjid Al aqsa) similar to the first one got anointed, her grandfather Aaron pbuh, in the bible to service Allah in the place where he was worshiped. His children, Jesus pbuh, was like her. ” He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those selling doves He said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn My Father’s house into a marketplace!”
      I wish if Jesus could see what the church does today in his name! especially the evangelical ones. The places where God is supposed to be worshiped have turned to be market and theaters for music and wine!

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    • abdullah

      You gave me the standard definition that does not further our understanding of each other.

      My question from the other thread went unanswered. What is the purpose and role of the messiah? For the jews, “messiah” means far more than an “anointed one” – it means someone who fulfills a specific role in religious history and along with him comes various outcomes.

      The quran uses the term casually like it is calling someone a “good bloke”. So, no, the quran offers no definition of the role,purpose and goals of what someone labeled “messiah” would have.

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    • You may complete reading my comment till you finish it.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Abdullah

      I respnded to your comment. No christian says that messiah necessarily equals god, but you are still left with the problem that the quran doesn’t offer any meaning to the word “messiah.”

      I couldn’t care less what ahment deedat said – he isn’t allah is he? I’m interested in what allah means when he says “messiah”.

      Any thoughts?

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    • Yes I have a thought: do you have a life? Why not get one before its too late..

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    • Jesus and the triune god are my life.

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    • I believe I’ve answered you!
      FYI, in the whole OT, the term (messiah) has never been mentioned in any context related to the concept of (the promised messiah) according to jews.

      =====================
      I think you should consider Br. Paul’s’ advice!

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    • abdullah

      You don’t know the OT then, at all.

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  2. Graham

    November 4, 2016 • 9:11 pm

    Jesus and the triune god are my life.

    I say;
    Good for you. There are other triune gods like Emperor Haile Selassie, Sai Baba and some monkey, snake, elephant etc. creatures incarnate gods.

    Ken Temple, I am not repetitive but comparative. You are not the only people to have an incarnate or triune god but Muslims, some Jews and some Christians have “the only one true God of Abraham” -Jesus and

    “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

    Yahweh said He is the 1. NONE ELSE, NONE ELSE, NON ELSE means NONE ELSE and NONE ELSE means including a triune god.

    It means Yahweh is God and triune god is none else and not God.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. “Jesus and the triune god are my life.”

    The triune god conists of three forms and one of them is Jesus. So saying it like that is stupid.

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  4. “jesus and the triune god are my life.”

    we hear more about “jesus” than the father in churches. i guess the other 2/3rd of god are distant gods and far away .

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  5. @graham: you say Trinity and Jesus are your life. Well you still haven’t answered these simple questions ( I have corrected typos and reformatted compared to last thread)

    Which part of teaching of Jesus do Christians follow?

    1. Do they worship the God Jesus worshiped? Well it seems they worship God the Son and God the Holy Ghost in addition to God the Father (who alone was worshiped by Jesus).

    2. They believe salvation by believing in death and resurrection of Jesus? To the best of knowledge I am not aware on any explicit passage where Jesus ever once said to any of his disciple to believe in this formula for salvation? Even we assume that crucifixion is a reality, it still doesn’t change the fact that Jesus never ever taught salvation by this formulae. There are some oblique reference in Gospels that are often used as evidence but unless someone is really programmed to interpret those in “Christian way”, they don’t teach this at all.

    3. They believe in original sin. Where did Jesus teach this?

    4. Jesus asked his disciples to OBEY those who sit in Moses’ seat (Matthew 23:1-3)? So whom do Christians OBEY today? Those who sit in Moses’ seat reject trinity while those who don’t sit in Moses seat preach trinity? This is a clear example that Christian today have no desire and no stomach to follow commandments of Jesus because if they did there wouldn’t be any Christianity! This verse alone should be enough for them to reject Trinitarian Christianity.

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    • Rational muslim

      These questions are really quite juvenile, but here you go….

      1 Jesus was the perfect example for man. As the word of god incarnate he exemplified how god’s commands for how we live our lives should be fulfilled. Thus, he prayed to the father.

      This is a really simple concept that none of the muslims on this blog seem to have enough synapses to comprehend. But in reality, it is not hard.

      2 With this question you are tyrying to be too clever. The bible is clear and unequivocal.

      just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

      and

      He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

      and

      This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.

      That is as straightforward as it gets, nothing oblique at all.

      3 Jesus believed in the OT and the OT clearly says that humans lived in the presence of god until man sinned. Since then, as far as I know, no human has been able to live and breathe in the presence of god. Original sin is taken as a given in jesus’ ministry. Can you name single person who has lived and not sinned? Can you name anyone who has lived and been capable o not sinning? Mohammed certainly sinned.

      4 Sorry, but this is as obtuse as it gets. Jesus’ disciples worshiped jesus. End of.

      Now you.

      When does the quran say jesus lived?

      What country did he live in? WHere did he travel to?

      What were the names of his disciples?

      WHich cities did he perform his miracles in?

      What was the name of the religious figures who tried to crucify him?

      Who was the governor of Israel at the time?

      WHere is the ministry of the Apostle Paul refuted?

      Where does the quran mention the Apostle Paul?

      Thanks. An answer would be of great help in helping me to understand islam.

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    • @Graham: you wrote

      1. “Thus he prayed to father”. and whom do you pray to? father+ son+ holy ghost. So clearly your god is different than god of Jesus. So you differ with Jesus right with who is God.

      2. Salvation: did you bring evidence that was asked. search OT and everywhere the word “ransom” appears replace it with your definition and see where you get.

      So my question still remains. where did Jesus tell u to believe in his death and resurrection to be saved.

      3. Sin: did Jesus know OT better than you? dd he tell you tell you your definition of sin? Don’t insert your meaning and then say ha this is what Jesus taught.

      4. The question still remains. Why wouldn’t you follow explicit order of Jesus to OBEY those in Moses’ seat. Read the whole verse. If you claim to follow Jesus then you must obey his orders. Else you are not follower of Jesus. You can’t have both ways.

      As for your questions. I have already answered them in previous thread.

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    • RM

      Yawn.

      1 Jesus accepted worship in is lifetime so I pray to the god that he revealed. I don’t pray to an unknowable entity who doesn’t even bother explaining to his followers the significance of the messiah.

      2 You brought no evidence for your claim of the meaning of “ransom” – and, oh, where does the quran say that jesus did not provide our salvation? And your question has been answered – so clearly that a three year old could understand it.

      3 Sorry, this is a really stupid question. LOL. You have actually agreed with me but are too “rational” to realize it. But I’ll ask you – can name a single person who has never sinned? Mohammed sinned, jesus did not.

      4 Jews of moses time worshiped Yahweh, the angel of the lord, and were guided by the holy spirit. If you obey jesus – which you should – then you would not follow the traditions of the hadith, but the OT. You can’t have it both ways.

      Anyways, since you know so much about jesus,maybe now you will answer my simple questions – all you have to do is show me the verses where allah tells us the following things…

      When does the quran say jesus lived?

      What country did he live in? WHere did he travel to?

      What were the names of his disciples?

      WHich cities did he perform his miracles in?

      What was the name of the religious figures who tried to crucify him?

      Who was the governor of Israel at the time?

      WHere is the ministry of the Apostle Paul refuted?

      Where does the quran mention the Apostle Paul?

      Thanks. An answer would be of great help in helping me to understand islam.

      How can I take anything muslims say about jesus seriously when they won’t answer simple questions about the details of jesus’ life as written in the quran………

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  6. @Graham : you wrote ” An answer would be of great help in helping me to understand Islam.”

    Islam doesn’t require you to know answers to these questions!

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    • So much for being a “rational” muslim.

      Muslims regularly claim that the quran “corrects” the mistakes of previous abrahamic faiths – yet nowhere does it actually mention anything meaningful about what jesus did, or his historical circumstances. It is far from rational to believe the islamic concept of god when the qiran provides absolutely no historical context to his life and ministry.

      Secondly – and maybe you will have the courage to answer this, the other muslims on this blog have run away from it – what does the quran mean when it says “jesus was the messiah”? There is no clear explanation of the significance and role of such a figure.

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    • Paul Williams

      “LOL”

      I know.LOL.

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Graham: Old habit dies hard. In your theology you try to figure out “secret” meanings of words and verses and base don those secret meaning you create a super structure of belief system.

      In Islam ( and in religion according Jesus) we are to take what is clear and things we don’t understand or in explained we leave it to God. If God wants me to understand something he will explain it in clear terms. The fact that he hasn’t bothered to explain what is “masih” we believe in it on face value and don’t assign “any secret’ meaning to it. that is real faith . I also gve u a verse of Quran from surat al kahf. Please read it.

      Liked by 1 person

    • RM

      In other words, you are not rational at all and you only apply reason and critical thinking to other people’s beliefs, whilst using a different set of rules in approach to your own. That is called self-delusion.

      So you believe that jesus is the messiah, but you have absolutely no idea what that means, you have no idea what the messiah is supposed to do for humanity, the significance of his mission or even the purpose and need for such a person?

      That is called willful ignorance.

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    • we do know what it means. it comes from root “ma sa ha”. it means to rub your head or to anoint. in that sense all Muslims are ” A masih” as are to do “ma sa ha” five times a day. Jesus is “Al Masih” . “Al Masih” because God chose to title him that way.

      there are also other “masih” in ot. so whats your point?

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    • RM

      LOL – sorry to laugh, but LOL!

      Your response is that “messiah” is merely a “name” that allah gave to jesus for reasons that your rational faculties don’t view as worth investigation? “Messiah” is just a name?

      I suppose I should thank you, you have proven that the quran – and hence islam – is not abrahamic, it is something else, probably pagan. The messiah is central to the resolution of the judeo-christian worldview – the law itself was put in place to find resloution through the messiah. By your own admission islam has no concept of the messiah, hence islam is not part of the abrahamic tradition.

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    • So why don’t u tell us what Messiah means. But again as usual you will go and insert your own meaning to it just like you do with everything in your theology [just like u are doing to word “ransom”]. nothing is based on explicit text but everything is to be understood by its “secret” meaning that “holy ghost” is to inspire! Can’t help.

      Liked by 1 person

    • RM

      My notion of the messiah is irrelevant – the question, which you are unable to answer, is what does the quran mean when it uses the term “messiah” to describe jesus.

      You simply don’t know what it means because the anonymous men who wrote the quran did not know what it meant.

      If jesus is the messiah, then islam is wrong. I won’t cast my pearls before swine and waste my time telling you why – what’s important is that the quran uses a hugely significant word that whoever wrote the book obviously did not understand.

      Nothing divine about that.

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    • If jesus is the messiah, then islam is wrong. I won’t cast my pearls before swine and waste my time telling you why Graham

      Don’t say things like that.

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    • He is not here; He has risen! Remember how He told you while He was still in Galilee: ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.’” Then they remembered His words.…

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    • The gospel is an explosive announcement that the despised and rejected one is now installed in a place of authority and deserves the acclaim normally reserved only for the greatest of worldly kings, for the highest gods of the pantheon , and even for the covenant God, Yahweh put. In other words, Jesus is King and reigns over all.

      But merely stating that Jesus is King is an insufficient representation of the gospel if we do not point out how he has shown his kingly power in giving himself up for our sins and being raised by God for our acquittal. The gospel is a royal announcement that God has become king in Jesus Christ and has expressed his saving sovereignty through the death and resurrection of the Son, which atones, justifies and reconciles. There is no gospel without the heralding of the king, and there is no gospel without atonement and resurrection Mike Bird

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  7. @Graham:

    Salvation: if you go through every single statement of Jesus, you will not find a single unequivocal statement from Jesus where he asked his followers to believe in his future death and resurrection to be saved. The verses like the one you quoted aren’t explicit. A meaning has to be inserted to them to make them sound like the ones you believe.

    Doesn’t this bother you that Jesus forgot to teach something so basic ( the very purpose of Christ arrival per ur theology) ?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Rational Muslim

      I gave you two quotes spoken by jesus that say explicitly that he was one, going to die for the “ransom of many”, and two, that he would have to die and be raised after three days. I have nothing to be bothered about this – it is extremely clear what these passages mean.

      What bothers me is that you claim to rational but you fail to go where the evidence leads. That is not the rational position.

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  8. @graham: Let me respond you point by point

    Mark10:45 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    Does ransom means death? Does it mean salvation through believe in death? Would u use this meaning in other places where ransom in used in OT? E.g number 35:31-32?

    Mark8:31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

    Does this verse talk about salvation? Let alone salvation through “belief” in death and resurrection?

    Also John the Baptists was killed by his enemies. Will believing in his “death” save you? If not then why place that faith in jesus death?

    1john3:16: This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.

    Is it statement from Jesus? Also it teaches something more important. You are to lay your life for your brethren. Does it occur to you if “belief” in death of Jesus is salvation then by the same logic “belief” in Christian martyrs death should also provide u salvation by your logic of this passage? If not then why play fast and loose with biblical passages? Why not be consistent?

    Look in his life Jesus did many things and faced many situations. E.g he rode donkey into Jerusalem? Does “believing” that Jesus rode donkey into Jerusalem save you? If not then why place this “belief” only in his death bro?

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    • RM

      For someone who boasts about t being a “rational muslim”, you don’t seem to utilize your rational faculties.

      I’ll make this brief and simple…..

      Mark 10:45 Jesus states that he will die for many…..
      Mark 8:31 Jesus says that when he dies he will rise after three days….

      So there, as clear as day. Jesus dies to save “many” and that he must die and rise again.

      As for John the Baptist your point is moot – JTB didn’t say he would die or the salvation of others.

      As for 1 John 3:16 – it shows that jesus’ followers believed that jesus died for our salvation – the very thing he teaches in Amrk 10:45 and 8:31.

      John 3:16 affirms this….

      For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

      John teaches that belief in what jesus said (hint – mark 10:45 and 8:31) shall not perish but have eternal life, aka salvation through the death and resurrection.

      As for jesus’ life – you have no idea what jesus did in his life if you read the quran. Allah has no idea what jesus did in his lifetime.

      Also, you are not very rational.

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    • @graham: Do u have comprehension problem or what?

      where do u see death in mark 10:45? do u see salvation in this verse? i don’t see. It simply says Jesus will give life as “RANSOM” ? Read OT to understand meaning of ransom. I even gave u a reference.

      Ransom neither means death nor does it mean salvation. the burden of proof in on you. Also Jesus is not asking you in that verse to “believe” in his death? does he?

      mark 8:31 doesn’t talk about salvation ? does it? where do u see that word?

      1john3:16: this verse actually undermines your entire premise. You are supposed “lay down our lives”
      just like Jesus. That means if Jesus death is a cause of salvation so is death of all christian martyrs?

      Does it need to be ever clearer.

      Oh BTW John 3:16″ where do you see word death in that passage? also is that speech of Jesus?

      Be specific. If you like me to answer your answer your question you need to comprehend what is being asked and then pose ur question

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    • RM

      I can’t believe that you are that dense – are you joking?

      The problem is that your point is so irrelevant that you can’t see the forest for the trees. Your own “holy book” says that jesus was the messiah.

      Strangely, you – and allah – don’t seem to know what that means. LOL. You don’t even understand what your own religious tradition means when it uses the term – laughably, you can’t prove islam’s version of jesus as messiah is true, since allah won’t tell you what it means.

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    • Here you go Graham. Enjoy!

      “Jesus said to him, ‘Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham. FOR THE SON OF MAN HAS COME TO SEEK AND SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST.’” Luke 19:9-10

      “Then He took the bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is My body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of Me.’ In like manner, He took the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant IN MY BLOOD WHICH IS SHED FOR YOU.'” Luke 22:19-20

      “He said to them, ‘These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me.’ Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. 46 He said to them, ‘Thus it is written, and accordingly it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS should be preached iIN HIS NAME to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.'” Luke 24:44-47

      “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.” John 3:16-17

      “This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. The bread WHICH IS SHALL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD IS MY FLESH.” John 6:50-51

      “If anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him. FOR I DID NOT COME TO JUDGE THE WORLD, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD.” John 12:47

      Here are some from Matthew:

      “even as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve AND TO GIVE HIS LIFE AS A RANSOM FOR MANY.” Matthew 20:28

      “As they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed it and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, ‘Take and eat. This is My body.’ Then He took the cup, and after He gave thanks, He gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink of it, all of you. For this is MY BLOOD of the new covenant, WHICH IS SHED FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.'” Matthew 26:26-28

      Now note the words of the angel to Joseph carefully:

      “She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, FOR HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.” Matthew 1:21

      All these verses show that Jesus comes to save the world by offering his life as a sacrifice, as a ransom, for all the sins committed by mankind.

      So how does Jesus save sinners? By offering his life as a sacrifice, as a ransom! It doesn’t get any clearer than this.

      Now if (Ir)Rational Muslim is insisting that all these words have to be found in a single place then he is going to end up embarrassing himself. But before I show how I will wait for (Ir)Rational Muslim to respond to this first before turning his own objection against his Quran.

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  9. @Graham: no beating around the bush. The question is not about what is the meaning of Messiah. Read the questions once again and then respond.

    But why would you care. Which commandments of Jesus do you obey anyway?

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    • RM

      You haven’t responded to my questions about the quranic concept of the messiah.

      Your own “holy book” says that jesus is the messiah – if that is true, mohammed is not a prophet and you follow the examples written hundreds of years after the death of a man who was ignorant of the centrality and signiicance of the messiah.

      As for answering your questions, I already did – you are just too brainwashed to get it. I’ll do a bit more here…

      You said mark 10:45 doesn’t mention death – it does but you have a major comprehension problem, it mentions death quite clearly. And do you know what “ransom” actually means? I’ll explain it – you pay for the release of someone else after they have been held hostage. Hence, jesus gives his life (he dies, get it) to pay the ransom of salvation. I suspect you still won’t get it, but I tried!

      It really isn’t as hard as you are making it out to be.

      Like

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