The Rev James Fields (whom I know personally) has penned this response to my article published earlier today Jesus remembered: ‘ideological tinkering must have gone on from the start’
James writes:
I find these thoughts have a powerful and timely resonance. Frankly they are a statement of the obvious, or I’d hope so.
The Jesus of history, the child who got left behind in the temple by parents on pilgrimage, the carpenter, itinerant preacher (trouble-maker!) can be variously an inspiration or a torment. Most of us who take our theology at least as seriously as our spirituality end up acclimatising to the idea that our Sunday school Jesus and the Christ of a more mature faith can be quite different…indeed must be. The meek and mild Jesus I was taught at Sunday school had mostly to do with some vague idea that I have to live life according to his sense of what right and wrong was…only time revealed of course that the bargain was being driven by the church and parents who colluded very nicely thank you; If you behave you’ll get what you want at Christmas! Little wonder in our world we now have a Black Friday as a preface to Advent…the ultimate ignominy.
Of course Christmases come and go and now that message for children is barren and irrelevant, shorn as it was of any sense of political, social or indeed spiritual imperative. Or truth! I guess we all have to grow up…even divinity students!
The wonder of the church, its shame also, is that it encourages us to remain childish in our hopes and expectations. Imagine what would happen if we were to respond to the teachings or insights of Jesus with our adult senses firing on all cylinders.
Dale Alison talks of the temptation to bestow omniscience upon Moses and of course the Christian church has done much the same with Jesus. The historicity of both men is at times impenetrable as a result. No wonder Rudolph Bultmann encourages us to take seriously the quest to demythologise the gospels. I will be for ever grateful that I was introduced to his work at Edinburgh New College as a seminarian and then at Union Theological in New York as an ordinand of the Presbyterian Kirk of Scotland. So much for credentials!
I am comfortable in the knowledge that faith has to embrace both dimensions, the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith. Indeed the more seriously I take the latter, the freer I feel to acknowledge that in truth we know precious little of the former. I dispensed long ago with camels, inns that were full and virgin births…I mean seriously! Empty tombs don’t really cut it for me either. But the stories, the narrative can be compelling, beautiful and transformative. But only if we take it beyond the Hallmark approach to faith..where the glitter eventually falls off the card. I hate glitter.
One of the great Christian insights is that God descends from the heavens, becomes involved in our human toil and endeavour. It matters to me not whether other traditions or faiths accept the theology of incarnation. But the incarnation speaks to many of a God is not remote and untouched by our failures or indeed by our capacity to yearn and to love.
At Christmas we sing of a God who comes down to earth. And heavens…do we not need a God on earth? A God who can pierce through our all too human contrivance and nonsense; our capacity to confuse Good Friday with Black Friday.
This it seems to me is the God who Jesus preached, yearned for and searched for…A God for too long held hostage by the temple authorities, a priesthood that excluded people form the temple on the basis that their physical blindness was a manifestation of their sinfulness.
It is an irony that for a fallen humanity to be saved God must fall to the earth, or at least be released from heavenly captivity, and if not that, then for our sometimes infantile faith. God up there, us down here…seriously? Isn’t that just so last week, so … medieval?
I hold in my mind the image of a father running down the driveway to welcome and embrace a lost child, falling to his knees, in joy, even as the cost of the pain of such loss can be finally acknowledged and expressed. In his story of a prodigal son, Jesus imparts an insight that is wholly at odds with the sanitised story that we are too often expected to wheel out at Christmas. God own his knees…the Christ who washes our feet.
The God of whom Jesus, Moses and Mohammed (peace be upon him) speaks is the God who raises up the valleys and brings the mountain low; the valleys and the mountains of our human hearts and souls. A God much greater than our ideological tinkering!
New heavens and new earth
Peace be with you this Advent
Categories: Bible, Christianity
Peace be with ye too.
LikeLike
Ye?
LikeLike
isn’t ye the classical you?
I was trying to sound ancient and grandiose!
lol
LikeLiked by 2 people
Ye is plural… like انتم
LikeLike
Where’s the growing up part?
LikeLike
See those words in the fourth paragraph
LikeLike
Same as it ever was
LikeLike
I am sure that Rev. Fields is a sincere person and man of faith writing with good intentions. There are alot of positive notes in his message above. But while I don’t mean to be insensitive, this is the kind of mixed message I have come to expect from many Christians.
While acknowledging that there are historical issues with the Gospel stories and the Biblical Jesus Mythos, the Rev. Fields states that he still believes in the incarnation, writing, “……do we not need a God on earth?” I appreciate that he states, “It matters to me not whether other traditions or faiths accept the theology of incarnation.” He is free to believe as he likes, regardless of what others think. But does it matter to him that it is an irrational impossibility? Or that historical NT critical scholarship has largely agreed in the gradual evolutionary exaltation of Jesus by the authors of the scriptural texts (from a fully limited human preacher/prophet to the unlimited divine son of God) rather than his actual incarnation?
He seems to say that Jesus had a God, saying, “This it seems to me is the God who Jesus preached, yearned for and searched for…” Only to later turn around and imply that Jesus IS God…….”God on his knees…the Christ who washes our feet.” Which is it – Jesus had a God, or he is God?
Then he seems to imply that the Jewish and Muslim understanding of God’s nature somehow outdated, “God up there, us down here…seriously? Isn’t that just so last week, so … medieval?” And yet his understanding of an incarnated God is not a progression in theological understanding, it is actually a REGRESSION into a dark paganistic ancient past, even older than medieval times.
I think that if the good Reverend is truly sincere and honestly wishes to do as he says and,”embrace both dimensions, the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith” then that must entail his relinquishing of the belief in the incarnation and placing his faith in the true historical Jesus as he really was…..a fully human (non divine) Palestinian Jew from Gallillee who preached the message of God.
If one endeavors to “grow up” it cannot be done partially, while hanging on to the misconceptions and misunderstandings of youthful naivety, but rather it must be done fully and completely, eyes wide open with a sincere earnest will to seek and find the fullness of truth.
The best quote from the Reverends pen is that:
“The God of whom Jesus, Moses and Mohammed (peace be upon him) speaks is the God who raises up the valleys and brings the mountain low; the valleys and the mountains of our human hearts and souls. A God much greater than our ideological tinkering!”
Now that is something I can agree with.
LikeLike
quote :
“God up there, us down here…seriously? Isn’t that just so last week, so … medieval?”
reverent , what are you talking about ?
you christians don’t even know what “god” is
is he a person/sub category of “fully god”
or is he “most high” who stays in heaven ?
reverent, is he as ken said “biological costume”
Ken said:
“The God-man died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death. then Jesus raised Himself from the dead, (john 10:18), proving He was God in the flesh.”
“the soul / spirit and Deity separated from the body at death”
you christians are having relationship with “biological human body and its chemical functions” just like the pagans before you were having relationship with lord demeter
or “biological human body….”
quote:
The greatest among the gods have drawn close to our city…
Both Demeter and Demetrius…
Hail to you, O Son of the mighty god Poseidon and of Aphrodite.
The other gods dwell so far away,
or else they have no ears,
or they do not exist, or do not care at all about us
We see you in our midst,
not a wooden or stone presence, but bodily
And so we pray to you… bring about peace
for you are the Lord (κύριος)
Notice what is said of Demetrius. He is one of the “greatest gods,” the son of God” (specifically of the gods Poseidon and Aphrodite), one who is “near” his own people – not remote, off on Mount Olympus, the one who “brings peace,” who can be called “Lord.”
These ascriptions to Demetrius should sound familiar to anyone who knows about early Christianity, where Jesus too was known as the incarnation of a divine being, the Son of God, the bringer of peace, the Lord, and God in the flesh. My ultimate point: Jesus was not the first to be called such things, or thought to be a kind of incarnation of the divine. He had predecessors.
end quote
so modern isn’t it , reverend?
LikeLike
rewording what ken said :
“The person with 1 nature stayed alive the meat died, but death only affects the biological human body and its chemical functions. the soul / spirit and divine person separated from the body at death. ”
so it appears that “divine son” did not even become human soul/spirit ; it remained distinct and separate. we have a case here of one guy controlling his remote control helicopter while he is still on the ground and not in his toy helicopter.
rewording what ken said :
then 1 person with 1 nature raised “personless” body from the dead, (john 10:18), proving he was god in the flesh, but not god as human”
LikeLike