Is Bart Ehrman Willing to Debate James White Again? Debating “Is Jesus Yahweh According to NT Authors”? Plus Advice from Sam Shamoun.

There could be a debate on the horizons.

James White challenged Dr Bart Ehrman to a debate on whether the New Testament authors thought Jesus was Yahweh. Well, it turned out Dr Ehrman was notified of this challenge by a comment on his blog and he has now responded opening the door to a possible debate.

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I’m not sure why James never contacted Dr Ehrman but if he’s serious and he was not just offering a load of bluster for his followers who make up his echo chamber one would expect him to be rushing to email Dr Ehrman to set this debate up.

Considering Dr Bart Ehrman called James White offensive and not a nice chap I think James would do well to take some of Sam Shamoun’s advice to ensure the interaction, this time round, goes off smoothly and yields a meaningful dialogue without any negative baggage and resentment.

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This is the type of argument James White would expect to come up against in a debate on the theology of the New Testament authors from Dr Bart Ehrman.

 



Categories: Islam

94 replies

  1. John 13:35:

    “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    Oh dear.

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    • Williams, I told Yahya he was free to post my comments since I have nothing to hide. It’s time people call out White to start living up to the same standard he calls others to, and repent and ask forgiveness of all the Christian he has offended. I can send you two links from two Christians who rebuke White and call him out for his nastiness. Let me know if you want me to post them here.

      Now let’s see if Ken will rebuke him, or whether is another yes man to White.

      And FYI, you all know that I have no problem giving people a taste of their own medicine by insulting them since I do not believe that there is NEVER a time when a Christian can do so. It’s white and his fan boy Ken who claim its never right and that we always need to be gracious. Therefore, will Ken do the right thing and rebuke his brother for being a hypocrite?

      One thing I can say about Ken, he is more consistent than what White has ever been since he does his best not to insult or mock people.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. James is an arrogant guy, so I don’t think that he would notify Bart about the debate’s challenge.
    Maybe James thinks that Bart is following his channel . 🙂
    Whatever, I’d love to watch them debating that subject.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. That is a weird compilation of unrelated issues; and Yahya has not included the main issue that Sam Shamoun is criticizing Dr. White for. The “recent tirade” is about Dr. White’s rebuke of Dr. Robert Morey.

    Yahya completely left out all the context and issue : That Dr. White has rebuked Robert Morey for his unChristian attitude toward Muslims and behavior in past debates with Shabir Ally and Jamal Badawi, and that he said that the US should bomb / or nuke (?) Mecca and for his silly theory that the Allah of Islam is a “moon-god”.

    If people go to Sam Shamoun’s Facebook page, you can see most of the issues are about Dr. White rebuking Robert Morey, that Yahya Snow totally LEFT OUT.

    Yahya just seems to be doing what he usually does – cobble together unrelated things in order to create more disunity between Christians.

    I agree with Dr. White. Dr. White is totally right in rebuking Robert Morey.

    https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2016/12/16/dr-whites-correct-rebuke-of-robert-morey-2/

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    • I am going to call you out here to show you are a yes man. Ken, quote the words of Morey for me regarding nuking the Kabah and tell me the book you are quoting from.

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    • From what I understand (I am going by Dr. White’s 2 recent Dividing Lines; and also from memory of when he first mentioned this several years ago) ; he claims that destroying the Kaaba will destroy Muslims from being able to do the 5th pillar and that will somehow destroy or make Islam weak (?) or ?.

      I agree with Dr. White that it would unite the whole Muslim world in anger and total all out Jihad; and it would hurt other innocent people around the Kaaba.

      That said, Morey’s book, “The Islamic Invasion” was a terrible book, IMO – no one reading it would want to reach out to Muslims in friendship or evangelism with respect and kindness.

      Yes, I read it years ago when it first came out and it was terrible.

      We have to overcome the already tension between our communities, not inflame more anger and hatred.

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    • Ken, in NO WAY were those quotes from Sam ever meant to be represrnted as Sam reacting to the Bart-James stuff.

      They are taken as GENERAL pieces of advice. James has been criticised by Prof. Leighton Flowers on his uncharitable, mean, mocking and condescending approach. It’s general advice that will help him. He’s had so many serious spats with Catholics, Muslims, KJV Onlysists and other Christians for reason – his style of communication is abrasive, pride-filled and lacks charity.

      So please be fair and stop trying to accuse me of something sinister here.

      I’d appreciate an apology as I think you just wanted to use me as a scapegoat to avoid the questions Sam asked of you

      Liked by 2 people

    • So instead of going to Morey and asking him to clarify his stance, or searching out the context of his statements, you simply took White’s word for it? Thanks for proving my point that you are a puppet and a yes man. Truly shameful and pitiful for you to take the view of one side without personally checking out all the facts and extending Christian charity to Morey. You are a hypocrite I am sorry to say.

      And you don’t overcome the tensions between the two communities by throwing the members of your own household under the bus. You need to first start overcoming the tensions in your own background before trying to do so with those on the outside.

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  4. When Shamoun attacks respectable people like James White don’t be surprised. Sham-Moon is only pi**ed off because James is not as arrogant, and filthy-mouthed as him. Sham-Moon only surrounds himself with psychopaths (Wood for example who smashed his father’s head in) and serious liar Morey who wants to use WMD against Makkah and the people there (As James White pointed out in a video recently).

    BTW, Shamoun, we had a conversation not long ago in regards to proskuneo and you ran off. I want to just relive that short online debate.

    Are you saying that proskuneo does not mean licking the hands like a dog? Or a dog who kiss (licks) his master’s hand?

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    • Sham-Moon Are you saying that Jesus did not demand people lick (proskuneo) his hands like a dog? Are you saying that the word does not even mean kiss the hands of his master like a dog (beneath humans, you’re lower than a dog or a dog)??

      Please to elaborate further, don’t copy paste long articles :p

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    • There’s more to the Bob Morey stuff from what I can gather. I’m hearing Bob Morey did not call for the “nuking” of the Kaba – it needs to be looked into as to what exactly he is saying (or has said) but right now I’m not convinced everything the average Muslim is being told via the recent vids from MBC is 100% accurate. That’s not down to MBC but rather a possible misunderstanding on the part of James White.

      Bob Morey would do well to come out on video or audio to explain his position and any comments he did make.

      Right now I think he *may* have been misrepresented slightly. I’m not sure either way.

      As for Sam, he has recently agreed to be part of a new and more respectful approach in dialogue with myself and Ijaz. Perhaps you and Sam should also try to have a private discussion to help assist more productive dialogue.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Let’s see who is going to run from who: http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/02/worshiping-jesus-as-god.html

      Now man up and debate me on the use of proskyneo to see who will be doing the running. I am available tonight.

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    • So flyingibnmuta email me so we can set your demis: sam.shmn@gmail.com

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    • I don’t want to debate you on your Paltalk dude. You should know by now that if I wanted to debate I would have debated long ago with some respectable Christians, and you’re not one of them. I stick to writing. Now, elaborate here to the people what you mean. Explain yourself what proskuneo means with the scholars on your side. Does proskuneo mean licking the hands like a dog or not?

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    • Shamoun, lower your tone, elaborate what I have put forth or else you’re a chicken :p

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    • Flyingibnmuta, instead of taking the cowardly way out please come to my paltalk room and make me lower my tone instead of trying to mask your illiteracy and incompetency behind 50,000 word cut and past butcherhing of sources where I can’t stop you and nail you for it.

      Like I said, email me to see if you have a bite that goes with your bark.

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    • So you have decided to chicken out already? Nice one mate! Just shows that I and others have been right all along that proskuneo means licking the hands like a dog. And you not being able to explain your position shows that you agree with me, hence why you went into mental midget mode using profanity against me.

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    • I know why you insist on the dog interpretation, since you want to defend your own species by butchering the Greek to justify the practice of your kin in kissing their masters’ hands.

      Like I said, you can be brave behind a key board all you want, since that is all you can do. You have my email. Feel free to contact me when get out of your wife’s mirt and man up to the challenge since I would love to muzzle you, something I am sure you will enjoy seeing that you have become accustomed to it. 😉

      In the meantime, keep barking away as you normally do.

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    • I don’t know what you’re talking about dude. But whatever goes your flow man. When you ready to discuss what proskuneo means feel free to holla at your home boy here :p

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  5. Thanks for your comments Sam. I don’t see Dr. White as going out of bounds in his rebuke of Robert Morey; there is some righteous anger in tone and volume of voice, which is understandable; as the sinful attitude of Dr. Morey is so great as as to be a massive stumbling block to Muslims and in being a bad witness on how to treat Muslims.

    What happened to loving people in evangelism with respect ?

    “speaking the truth in love” – Ephesians 4:15

    “give an account for the hope within you; with gentleness and respect.” 1 Peter 3:15

    I am amazed at Morey’s attitude and beliefs on these issues.

    We have to do better at seeking to talk to Muslims.

    They don’t even listen to you at all; because sometimes you go off on them in anger and name calling.

    Wow. The whole episode is amazing.

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    • How convenient of you to ignore the links I gave showing how Christians, including one reformed Baptist, rebuke White for his arrogant, nasty attitude towards his brothers whil focusing on his vicious tirade against Morey. So you will now show some consistency and prove you are not a yes man and call him out for his vile behavior?

      In the meantime, please quote for me Morey’s own words and the book where he made these comments. This will either prove that you are nothing more than a puppet who parrots White or someone who thinks for himself and holds White to the same standard you call others to.

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    • “What happened to loving people in evangelism with respect”
      As if the nations on this globe are used feeling that love from you!

      Bishop Bartolomé de las Casas’s testimony of the “love” that were giving

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    • Bishop Bartolomé de las Casas’s testimony – he was rebuking the Spanish Conquistadors and colonizers for their cruelty – he was not supporting them.

      He was a Roman Catholic bishop, so he held to lots of false doctrines also.

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    • “How convenient of you to ignore the links I gave showing how Christians, including one reformed Baptist, rebuke White for his arrogant, nasty attitude towards his brothers whil focusing on his vicious tirade against Morey”
      Lol! :joy:

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    • “he was rebuking the Spanish Conquistadors and colonizers for their cruelty”
      What about you? Praising the “American snipers” in Iraq?

      ============

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  6. I have not had time to go to those links yet and listen to them.

    My main point is the Yahya completely left out the Robert Morey stuff.

    I guess we are all going to have struggle to find where the issue of “bombing” vs. “nuking” is. I confess I don’t know right now.

    But eventually, someone will figure out what Morey said in public and the difference between that and his book on his military and political and “psychological warfare” attempt.

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    • I swear I do remember Morey saying this. This is an archived link where he wrote an article that he wanted Kaaba destroyed:

      http://web.archive.org/web/20110608180140/http://www.faithdefenders.com/news/osamabinladen.html

      Liked by 1 person

    • The original article is taken down. This is the original link which was taken down, you can only access the link via web.archive.org if you want to read what Robert Morey really said.

      http://www.faithdefenders.com/news/osamabinladen.html

      Just goes to show Shamoun only surrounds himself with psychopaths and he is one of them.

      Archived link to Robert’s article:

      http://web.archive.org/web/20110608180140/http://www.faithdefenders.com/news/osamabinladen.html

      Like

    • Ken read my comment above. Still awaiting my apology…

      Liked by 1 person

    • No; because you completely left out the stuff about Robert Morey.

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    • Well Ken, you’re just being unfair. The comments from Sam clearly refer to Christians (plural) who White has mocked and insulted over the years. So it;s general advice from Sam for James Whte to tone things down and be more charitable. It’s obvious nobody was trying to pass those comments off as being about the Bart-White episode as it clearly mentions White’s attitude towards CHRISTIANS who don’t agree with him.

      You know where I am if you decide to apologise.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Yahya – I don’t know your motives; but you connected so many disconnected things and left out the main thing and context about Robert Morey; that it did not SEEM very sincere of you. It looks like the same type of videos you do a lot – I am not impressed.

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    • Ken, if you’re not willing to apologise, why dig yourself in deeper? The post was not about Morey. The post was about James’ challenge to Bart, Bart’s response and I tagged some general advice Sam that will help to encourage a more meaningful dialogue and will also help James see he needs to adopt a more charitable tone. I would have thought a missionary like yourself would have appreciated the video seen as it alerts one of your leaders to an opportunity to debate Dr Ehrman and it includes advice which would improve James’ ability to connect with people and communicate in a manner that doesn’t make James look uncharitable and mean-spirited. Oh and can you cite me 10 videos (I have 100s of them so 10 would be a small percentage) belonging to me which follow this pattern you ascribe to me?

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    • “the post was not about Morey” – that was the problem, you left all of that out and Sam Shamoun’s comments are about that. “recent tirade” and all his FB posts around the ones who provided are mostly about the Robert Morey stuff.

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    • No they weren’t Ken. They were general quotes. He says for years he’s bit his lip whilst White has attacked Christian brothers (plural). He cites Prof. Flowers and another Christian. In the past he has spoken out against James for berating Christians.

      Hey, if you want to believe they are about Morey specifically that’s up to you but for me it’s obvious that’s not the case. Seen as Sam has called you a fan boy of James White i can’t help but think you’re simply using this line of argument to avoid having to deal with the thought of having to be consistent and rebuke Jame. You may not even be doing it knowingly. In apologetics people have folks they look up to and gloss over their mistakes and faults.However, I’d appreciate it if you did not try to use me as a scapegoat in whatever is at play here. Still awaiting my apology… 🙂

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    • They were in the main context of the issue with Robert Morey. I saw the Flowers connection but cannot find the other one. I have listened, at least I think I have (to most of the DLs at the time of those programs) and I don’t remember Dr. White being insulting or any kind of a thing like that. He argues forcefully against their arguments. I do appreciate Dr. White’s attempts to be fair to Muslims especially.

      In fact, Dr. White goes out of his way to warn other Calvinists not “to assign Arminians and those they disagree with to the flames” – he has said this several times in reference to William Lane Craig, because some other Calvinists are too mean-spirited to WLC and also about Michael Brown, who is Charismatic.

      In all honestly, it seemed like to me that you left out the greater context of the Robert Morey issue; but in the spirit of peace and brotherhood in humanity, I apologize for judging your motives and thinking that you deliberately did that to cause disunity. Please forgive me.

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    • Yahya –
      . . . but in the spirit of peace and brotherhood in humanity, I apologize for judging your motives and thinking that you deliberately did that to cause disunity. Please forgive me.

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  7. flying pir…SAM SHAMOUN is a liar who was exposed numerous times for the fraudster that he is…he will not debate Shabir Ally, Ally Ataie or Yusuf Ismail who will all demolish his garbage…Shabir Ally refuses to debate him because of his uncouth behaviour but watch the debate between Shabir and Sam where Sam got the hiding of his life…the one place sam is comfortable debating is on little paltalk where his goons operate from and where he dots people who confront him…but on a pu luc forum the man is scared and thinks that there is a demonic attack on him by muslims when he has a sore throat or the flu…he lives in a bubble and seems schizophrenic…watch any video of his and you will see how demented he comes out at…the one time i questioned him, he went bezerk like a madman online..watçh it

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  8. flying pir you are right in the article Robert Morey speaks about bombing the kaabah…what planet are you living upon sam shamoun?… yahya snow and paul williams take note ofthe article where bob speaks about destroying rhe kaabah

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  9. Reminder: this post is not about Sam. And let’s be fair – he has not insulted anybody here. There are Muslims who Sam has recently agreed to actively try to avoid getting into mudslinging outs with.

    Keep that in mind – Sam wants to move forward.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Thanks Flying Pir

    OK so we have progress here. Here’s the relevant bit from the link cited by FP:

    Lastly, with the political unrest in Middle Eastern countries, now is the perfect time to bomb the Kabah and the nuclear plants in Iran. If we did it now, there would no united Muslim response as their governments are in chaos.

    —-

    So we can all agree he has called for the bombing of the Kabah.

    I’m yet to see evidence of him calling for nukes but it’s now clear he has called for bombing. His calls to bomb nuclear power plants in Iran are problematic too.

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  11. Here is the first time this issue came up I think, this recording of one of Dr. White’s Dividing Line program was published on You Tube 4 years ago. The DL show may have been even much earlier than that.

    Dr. White’s argument and reasoning about “the moon-god” theory is exactly right. I have always had problems with Morey’s theory way back when I first read his terrible book, “The Islamic Invasion”.

    Dr. White reports that another person asked him about “nuking”, whereas in Morey’s book, he clearly says “bombing” and “destroying” and also Morey says the US should destroy Iran also.

    From the article that “Flying Pir” retrieved:

    Lastly, with the political unrest in Middle Eastern countries, now is the perfect time to bomb the Kabah and the nuclear plants in Iran. If we did it now, there would no united Muslim response as their governments are in chaos.

    The execution of bin Laden is only one step in winning the war against fundamental Islam.

    Let us seize the moment and destroy the Kabah and Iran.
    Robert Morey

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    • ken , how come you are the only evangelist polytheist who doesn’t buy into the moon god stuff? please explain.

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    • I am not a polytheist. I am clearly a Monotheist; there is only One God; fully consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

      the “moon god” theory is dumb.

      his silly argument that the God of Islam, “Allah”, is the “moon-god” of ancient Arabia. Even if the ancient Arabians called one of the idols “Allah”; the argument does not work for the Allah of Islam, because the doctrine of Allah in the Qur’an and Islam since around 613 AD is basic Monotheism. That argument is like saying the ancient Goths and Germans used the word related to our word “God” today in English, therefore “God” of the bible is the pagan deity of the ancient Goths. (the first 25:43 minutes of the program; after that Dr. White addresses Reformed theology issues.)

      from my article:
      https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2016/12/14/dr-whites-correct-rebuke-of-robert-morey/

      Like

  12. On the older You Tube thing from 4 years ago:

    Dr. White said that Sam knows the Islamic sources; and that even though they disagree on some things and methodology, Dr. White loves Sam in Christ.

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  13. Sorry, I forgot the link of the YouTube by “Muslim by Choice”, one from 4 years ago, of an older DL program, where Dr. White first rebukes Robert Morey for the “moon-god” theory and also for his behavior against Shabir Ally and against Jamal Badawi and for his “bombing the Kaaba” thing.

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  14. Dr. White’s written response on this in 2015, and linking to “Muslim by Choice”s You Tube video of a Dividing Line Program from 2012.

    http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2015/03/07/regarding-robert-moreys-comments-about-nuking-the-kaaba/

    Like

  15. Perhaps, we shouldn’t provoke Shamoun any further if he, genuinely, want’s to move away from insults and ad hominems.

    Liked by 3 people

  16. From an article that Sam Shamoun provided: He not only called for bombing the Kaaba, but also the whole cities of Mecca, Median, and also the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Sick and shameful.

    By Robert Morey:

    “The path to Paradise, according to the Five Pillars of Islam, involves the city of Mecca and its stone temple called the Kabah. Muslims pray toward Mecca five times a day. What if Mecca didn’t exist anymore?”

    “They must make a pilgrimage to Mecca and engage in an elaborate set of rituals centered around the Kabah once they arrive. What if Mecca and the Kabah were only blackened holes in the ground?”

    What if Medina, the burial place of Muhammad was wiped off the face of the planet?
    What if the Dome Mosque on the Temple site in Jerusalem was blown up?

    “With American ships stationed all around Arabia and troops on the ground within Saudi Arabia itself, it would take about 7 minutes for cruise missiles to take out Mecca and Medina. These cities could be vaporized in minutes and there is nothing the Saudis or any other Muslim country could do to stop us. The Israelis could take out the Dome Mosque at the same time. It could happen so fast that no one would have the time to respond. With these surgical strikes, FEW LIVES WOULD BE LOST. And, with three strikes against them, Islam is out!”
    Robert Morey

    Calling for bombing the Kaaba and asking the question, “what if Mecca didn’t exist anymore?” (The whole city of Mecca !!!) clearly would mean that lots of innocent civilians would be killed.

    He claims that “FEW LIVES WOULD BE LOST”.

    Yeah, right; just like all the trouble we have had with all the other wars and how Muslims are upset by all the collateral damage and civilians that get killed.

    This is not something a Christian should be saying or writing.

    Shame on Robert Morey.

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    • “vaporized” is also very bad. Shame on Morey.

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    • Ken, presumably you will also condemn the American government as it does bomb Muslims. In 2014 about 70% of US army active service members identified as Christian. Bob Morey was, reprehensibly, calling for bombings but those folk have actively been bombing.

      Have you got a number of strongly worded blogs or comments rebuking those Christians?

      If you don;t, seen as you are a strong supporter of James White, have you got any links of him rebuking them?

      And do you agree with James’ views on the nuking of Japan?

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    • Br.Yahya, you will not find any thing in history like the history of those who “love” their enemies.

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  17. #Aleppo
    We need to remember what’s happening right now in Aleppo. There’s a big plot behind it Russia, Iran with its cult,and the west.
    Remember that since christians & the west have very very short memory. I’m afraid that when people of Aleppo who are forced to leave want to fight to get their homes back, the christians and the west will shout how horrible people of Aleppo are. They don’t accept “the solution to share their homes with poor and civilized iranians”

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  18. Morey calling for vaporizing and destroying whole cities of Mecca and Medina does imply nukes.
    Shame on him.

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    • Fighting ISIS in Iraq has nothing to do with Aleppo, way over in North Western Syria.

      You lost the argument big time.

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    • Have not you heard the news?
      Any nation wants to play in the Middle East, it’s more than welcome once it points to strawman called terrorism.
      Iran & Russian use the same excuse.
      American Sniper movie shows that you went there after your president had been told by Jesus because of the terrorism while there’s no Qadae in Iraq before the invasion .

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    • #Nakbah 1948

      #Aleppo 2016

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  19. Ken said: I am not a polytheist. I am clearly a Monotheist; there is only One God; fully consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Is the godhead one being?

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    • Yes, One being/substance/essence in three persons.

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    • No. Every Person/person is a being.

      Jesus is a being
      God the Father as a Person is a being.
      One counts 2 Persons/being here.

      Ken will respond and say God can have more than one Persons/persons in his being. That is when Rastarian Haile Selaissie, Hindu Sai Baba, Monkey Gods, Cow Gods of India shitting in the street of India comes in which are more Person/person or creatures as God. Mormons more than one persons God and many personal Gods.

      “God can have more than one Persons/persons as God.”-Ken Temple

      OK.
      Is Jesus as a Person/person not a being?
      Is God the Father as the First Person/person not a being?

      Any sensible person knows Jesus Christ is a being. It is a lunatic who can look at Jesus Christ and says he is not a being.

      God the Father whom we pray to as “our Father, who is in heaven” is a being i.e. Divine being.

      If the Father is not the Son(Jesus), then we count 2 beings here and it is polytheism according to the Bible worshiping 2 beings or adding anything to the one God of Abraham is a sin punishable in hell fire. Trinity is not in the Bible neither is “Tree Persons/person one God”.

      Ken has to convert to Islam. I will be the one to give him Shahada

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ken Temple

      December 17, 2016 • 2:59 am
      Yes, One being/substance/essence in three persons

      I say;
      You are wrong.
      Are you telling me Jesus who is not the Father is not a being? It is lunacy to say Jesus Christ is not a being.

      It is lunacy to pray to the Father who is not Jesus and say you are not praying to a being. When you pray to the Father, are you not praying to a being? If when you pray to the Father you are not praying to a being then you are not praying to God and you are wasting your time.

      Jesus who is not the Father is a being.
      The Father who is not Jesus and is prayed to is a being. You cannot tell me you are praying to nobody. The Father you are praying to as “our Father, who is in heaven” is a being and is not Jesus(The Son) so the Father who is not Jesus is a being and Jesus is being. =2 beings and polytheism punishable by hell fire.

      If we have 2 or more things sharing the same thing. One of them cannot claim he is the only claimant of that thing because there are others.

      Jesus that you worship can not claim his person alone is God because there are other persons i.e. the Father also who is not Jesus claiming to be God and we have 2 Gods and it is polytheism punishable in boiling hell fire according to the Bible.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • God is “substance” ! What the heck is this exactly?
      I challange every christian to give us one reason that we can’t call each person as being in the trinity for each one has its mind, free will, and identity.

      Moreover, when God was talking to Moses, and he said he is one, did Moses think by any mean that God meant that he is one “substance” shared by many persons? What’s really the difference between this absurdity and any polytheism in the world ? If God is just a “substance” which many persons could have, then all gods in hinduism are one according to christians.
      Christians with no doubt are polytheistic people.

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    • //Yes, One being/substance/essence in three persons.//

      Jesus needed food and he liked fish. Therefore this jesus “godhead” was definitely not One being/substance/essence as God.

      Like

  20. Sam Shamoun is not a …

    AVI I HAVE DELETED YOUR COMMENT. IT IS HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. CHILL OUT.

    PAUL WILLIAMS

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  21. God is “substance” ! What the heck is this exactly?

    We don’t say “God is substance”; what the Bible and Christians say is that God has a substance or essence or nature, whatever it is, it is unlike us and far above us and outside of physical universe and uncreated and non-material. God is Spirit – invisible, non-physical. beyond description really.
    Psalm 145:3

    “Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised; Your greatness is unsearchable.”

    الله اکبر

    God has a substance/nature/essence/being, and that one substance/essence / being is shared by three persons, eternal, spirit (not physical, not limited by space or time, non-material). The Son was non-physical in eternity past as the eternal Word – John 1:1-5; John 17:5

    ذات ، جوهر، روح

    John 4:23-24
    God is Spirit; and those that worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.

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    • “god is spirit”

      HOW many?

      how does the SAME “spirit” become SENDER AND SENT?

      COMMANDER AND COMMANDED?

      Like

    • God is a person that has divine substance + 3 persons that share the same divine substance of God = 4 persons that all have the same divine substance lol..

      Like

    • omar, you can clearly see your point by drawing the trinitarian triangle and in the middle of it place the pronoun “he”

      Like

    • ” God has a being”
      Is anybody here can understand this language? So “the being” is something you can possess?
      What has satan done for your brains!?
      You are not stupid, yet you are so arrogant to admit of this absurdity.

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      December 17, 2016 • 1:21 pm
      God is “substance” ! What the heck is this exactly?
      We don’t say “God is substance”; what the Bible and Christians say is that God has a substance or essence or nature, whatever it is, it is unlike us and far above us and outside of physical universe and uncreated and non-material. God is Spirit – invisible, non-physical. beyond description really

      I say;
      You are not out of the woods yet and you are not from the hook. You put you God in ridicule by saying your God has a substance.
      Your God ha a nature.

      And so what? It is nothing strange any one has a substance and anyone has a nature. Human nature is to eat food and human has a substance too.

      So, when you say your God has a substance you have said nothing. When you say, your God has a nature you have said nothing. Hindus God has a substance and nature too.

      Does the voodoo God snake not have substance and nature like your Trinitarian God having substance and nature.

      Define substance and nature and you will realize it is not only your God who has those but Hindus God has substance and nature as well. One of the nature of Hindu cow God is to shit on the streets of India.

      Your God shits too. My God and the God of Abraham does not shit, astaghfrilulah, may God forbid.

      “God is not a substance but has a substance”-Ken Temple. Where did your God keep his substance? In his pocket?

      Abdullah
      December 17, 2016 • 2:50 pm
      ” God has a being”
      Is anybody here can understand this language? So “the being” is something you can possess?
      What has satan done for your brains!?
      You are not stupid, yet you are so arrogant to admit of this absurdity

      Ken Temple
      God has a substance/nature/essence/being, and that one substance/essence / being is shared by three persons, eternal, spirit (not physical, not limited by space or time, non-material). The Son was non-physical in eternity past as the eternal Word – John 1:1-5; John 17:5

      So, from what Rev. Ken wrote, his God is not a being but his God has a being. I don’t where the Trinitarian God is hiding His being so that satan will not snatch his being because Ken said God is not being but has a being.

      Thanks.

      Like

  22. Mr heathclif and kindly give me one example in the Bible where the pronoun ‘He’ is used to contextually conceptualize three distinct persons as one God ?… 🙂 shows us where ‘He’ refers to 3 distinct persons please 🙂

    Like

  23. Show us the where the triangle with a He in the middle is articulated or conceptualized in the bible :)?

    Like

    • as i said to burhanudeen, they are making the “middle he” in to 1 ALIVE and conscious person.

      when they pray to their pagan god, they think of this “one nature” as if it is one person

      ken mixes up his who’s and whats when he prays to the triplets.

      Like

    • this is why , when i ask them

      what does each person use to love the other

      “one nature” ? is each using FULLY “one nature”

      each person uses “one god/nature” to love the other

      isn’t this clear that they worship 3 beings?

      Like

  24. Intellect and Omar beat me to it. No need for me to repeat what they´ve already pointed out.

    However, just want to add one general observation. When polytheists like Ken insist on defining the godhead as one being they open up a can of worms. This is symptomatic of the trinity. Whenever one aspect of it is “explained”, it just opens up even more questions. For instance, is the godhead, if he is ONE being, also ONE person? can the persons also be called beings? does the godhead as ONE being have its unique volition or is its volition dispersed in the three persons? etc ad absurdum and ad nauseam.

    Instead of partaking in this absurd semantic cat and mouse game I think the following piece of advice is relevant: “And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you” Quran 4:171

    Liked by 2 people

  25. I just wan’t add that the reason I called Kento san out and asked him whether the godhead is ONE being is, as mr heathcliff and Omar pointed out, that tritheists seem to worship four gods. Ironically by claiming that they believe in three persons they end up in fact believing in four gods. Some sort of inflation is going on here. Strange 🙂 Kento san could you please manage my money? You seem to be an expert in making things multiply.

    Like

  26. Jesus Testifies Against the Trinity.

    Jesus was commanded to worship the God of Israel, “Hear O ISRAEL, the Lord OUR God is one.” He didn’t worship a three-person-God proving that Israel’s God was not a three-person-being. Jesus is our most trustworthy witness. Our Lord Jesus shows us the Shema means our God is one single HE who we are to serve with all our heart. Mark 12:32; Deut 4:35. Jesus also shows us how to identify that one single HE – his Father alone – “there is NO OTHER but HE.” Jesus identified that HE as the Father. He has made us to be… priests TO HIS God and Father. Rev 1:6. Even further, this command was for every Israelite including Jesus, a Jew born under the Law. It says, “the Lord OUR God.” Jesus was required to recognize and serve ISRAEL’S God. He did this by recognizing and serving only one person as OUR God, ISRAEL’S God. Israel’s God = Jesus’ God. “OUR God” for Jesus meant one person only. This proves beyond any doubt that the God of Israel was only one person. Otherwise, Jesus did not obey the Shema commandment.

    Like

  27. Ken Temple, Paul Williams, Sam Shamoun, Yahya Snow, Ijaz Ahmad, Abu Talha, Eric Bin Kassim, Richard Zetter . Respond if you are Truthful. Shocking Proof!!

    Deuteronomy 6:4

    “Hear O Israel, the LORD our God the LORD is one.”

    “Hear O Israel, YHWH our God YHWH is one.”

    Proof of the Trinity Error

    The fact that Jesus was born under the Law and was required to observe the Law, demonstrates to us beyond doubt precisely WHO this passage is identifying: the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Evidence

    1. The LORD is One or the LORD is Three?

    While the text says that the LORD/Yahweh is one, Trinitarians would have us believe that we can also imagine a different idea into this passage, “Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is three,” or, “Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is three yet one.” Or, Trinitarians alternatively often imagine the text to be saying, “Hear O Israel, the LORD our God the LORD is one [divine ousia]. Simply contemplating these Trinitarian claims should be enough to cause one to seriously question the plausibility of the Trinitarian interpretation(s) of this verse.

    2. “We Jews worship what we know for salvation is from the Jews.” – Jesus

    It should be obvious that Jesus’ God was not any different than the God of Israel, the God of every Israelite. As a Jew under the Law, he was obligated to obey the Law and Jesus’ God could not be any different than the God of Israel who is identified at Deut 6:4 as “OUR God.” Christ’s God was one person and one person alone: his Father alone, and nobody else. If his God was one person then so was the God of Israel.

    Let the reader honestly contemplate one simple thing. When young Jesus was reading the Old Testament Scriptures, and he read about all the things his God had done, precisely WHO did Jesus have in mind? Is it remotely rational to suppose young Jesus was thinking about the good ole days when He Himself led Israel out of Egypt? Did he suppose that his God, the God of Israel, was he himself? How is that even going to make any sense? Or was Jesus supposing all those wonderful stories about the God of Israel in the Old Testament Scriptures, his God, were stories about the accomplishments of a three person being? Is it not far fetched beyond rational behavior to suppose such a thing? Or was young Jesus thinking about his Father and his Father alone, his God? If so, then is that not precisely who the Old Testament was talking about when it described all the things God had done?

    Let us suppose the same scenario with young Jesus but let us also suppose we weren’t talking about the Trinity here and that doctrine was completely out of view. Let us suppose we were simply focusing upon young Jesus and his Jewish life under the Law among a group of Trinitarians. We both know precisely WHO Trinitarians would suppose Jesus had in mind when he read about his God in the Old Testament Scriptures. Don’t we? I can tell you how I know. Many times, I have observed Trinitarians acknowledge that the Old Testament Scriptures are simply references to the Father, at least until, someone says the word “Trinity,” and then everything suddenly changes and a radical mind-shift takes place. Why? Is this word a signal to ignore reality for the sake of a creedal doctrine?

    Trintiarians claim that the Jews did not know they had been worshiping a three-person-being throughout the history of the Old Testament and continued to do so until the Trinity had been revealed to them in New Testament times. However, Jesus declared the opposite. In the context of the appropriate worship of God, Jesus declared that the Jews worshiped what they knew (John 4:20-22). Trinitarians are nullifying Jesus’ words for the sake of their tradition. Not only so, they fail to see the implications of Jesus’ words, WE worship what WE know. Jesus is including himself among all Jews and saying that all the nation of Israel knew what they worshiped just as he himself knew what he worshiped. Jesus knew who he worshiped as the God of Israel: his Father alone. And Jesus used the word “WE” indicating that ALL Jews knew this and not just he himself.

    3. Shema – the Foremost Command of the Law

    Jesus also taught that the foremost command of the Law was the Shema command, that is, Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

    28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What command is the foremost of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 The scribe said to Him, “You are correct, Teacher. You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him; 33 and to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” Mark 12:28-34
    As a Jew under the Law, Jesus was required to keep this command just like every other Jew. This is a very important fact that we must keep in mind and appreciate rather than ignore.

    4. The LORD is one single “He”

    At Mark 12:28-34, Jesus and a Jewish scribe agreed that the Shema is the foremost command. They also agreed that the words “the Lord is one” mean “He is one and there is no other but He. In this account, Jesus shows us that the Shema means “the Lord is one HE.” So we know for certain that Shema means that the Lord is one HE, one WHO, while Trinitarians commonly read the notion, “the LORD is one WHAT” (divine nature) into the text ignoring nullifying the testimony of Jesus concerning the meaning of the Shema. For the Trinitarian, the LORD is three “HEs” (three persons) and one “What” (the divine nature as described in Trinitarian doctrine). But according to Jesus and this scribe, Yahweh is one single “HE/HIM” and there is no other but HE. Jesus and this Jewish scribe agree that the words “the Lord is one” mean that their God is one single HE.

    While it is a fact denied by Trinitarians, reasonable people understand that the word “HE” or “HIM” are words used to refer to a single person. Signifying a single person is the very purpose of using singular personal pronouns. Hence, at Mark 12:28-34, Jesus’ witness shows us that the Shema is referring to one person. And the proof is in the pudding when we honestly regard how Jesus obeyed the Shema. He observed the Shema command by recognizing and serving only one person as the God of Israel, his Father alone, “HIM.”

    Jesus agreed that the words “the Lord is one” mean “there is no other but “HIM.” And we also know with absolute certainly how Jesus identified that one single HE.. We know how Jesus interpreted Deuteronomy 6:4 because we know how he obeyed it. Jesus showed us unambiguously what Deuteronomy 6:4 means. He did not identify this HE as a Triune being. The way Jesus obeyed the Shema command was to recognize and serve his Father alone as the one God of Israel, “OUR God.” According to Jesus, that one HE was no one else but his Father.

    5. “Yahweh OUR God”

    It is also an extremely significant fact that the Shema says “OUR God.” Let the reader understand that this command was given to the nation of Israel. It says, “Hear O Israel” and the words “OUR God” refer to all those Israelites under the Law. The Shema was a command to serve the God of every Israelite, the God of Israel, and that included Jesus because he was an Israelite under Law along with all of the rest of them and he was required to obey this command along with all of them. Jesus could not have interpreted the Shema to mean one thing while it really meant something else for the rest of the Jewish nation. This is because the command to Jesus was to serve “OUR God” not just his God. He was required to recognize “OUR God,” that is, the God of Israel. He could not have interpreted the Shema to refer to one person while it actually meant three persons for every other Jew. Such a proposition is absurd. Jesus could not have possibly interpreted the Shema to refer to only his Father, which he did, while at the same time it referred to three persons for every other Israelite. Why? The Shema command says “OUR” God. Who then was “OUR” God? One thing is for certain, Jesus’ God was not a three person being and he obeyed this command. Hence, we know “OUR God” simply cannot refer to a three person being.

    6. The Father is not the Triune Being

    In Trinitarian doctrine, the Father is not the Triune Being. That would be saying the Father is three persons which Trinitarians deny. In Trinitarian doctrine, the Father is but one person OF the Triune being. The Triune being is not the Father and the Father is not the Triune being. Because of this fact, Trinitarians cannot identify “God” in the Scriptures as both the Father and the Triune being. The following illustrates this fact.

    “He is God and there is no other but He/Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35.
    Trinitarians simply cannot identify the “He” in the above verse as the Father. They must refuse to do so since that verse would then declare that nobody but the Father alone is God which contradicts Trinitarian doctrine. By insisting it refers to the Triune God, “HE”, they are demonstrating to us that any given verse about God is either referring to the Triune being OR to the Father but not both. As illustrated by Deuteronomy 4:35, they can’t have it both ways because they know very well it would make no sense. And it would make no sense because the Triune HE is not the same HE in their doctrine as the Father.

    Therefore, it should be clear that in the same way, the Shema either refers to the Triune being or it refers to the Father. If “OUR God” refers to the Triune being, then Jesus was required to obey the commanded to serve the Triune being as his God. But if “OUR God” refers rather to the Father alone, then Jesus, and every other Israelite, was commanded to obey this command by recognizing only the Father as their God. And by his own testimony, Jesus shows us precisely WHO the Shema has in view: his Father alone. This is how Jesus obeyed the command to serve the God of Israel, “OUR God.”

    7. The God of Jesus = the God of Israel: “OUR God”

    Throughout the New Testament, we find that the God of Jesus was the Father alone. His God was not a Triune being; his God was only his Father.

    Jesus’ God was one person: his Father. Jesus’ God was a one person being: the Father alone. A one-person God is not the same God as a three-person God and for that reason we cannot say that Jesus’ God was a three-person-being. A three-person-God is not the same thing as a one-person-God. Trinitarians testify themselves that if you do not serve a three-person-God as they do, they you serve another God, a different God.

    Now since Jesus was born under the Law, and he was required to observe the Law, he was therefore required to observe the Shema, “Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is one. You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength.” (Deuteronomy 6:4-5). Simply ask yourself how Jesus was expected to obey this command. Ask yourself who Jesus identified as his one God in order to obey this command. It is quite simple to see that Jesus did obey the command to serve “OUR God” he did this by serving his Father alone. It was his Father alone who he loved with all his heart and all his soul and all his strength. If we suppose the “OUR God” identified at Deuteronomy 6:4 is really a Triune being, then Jesus disobeyed the Law since he did not worship or serve any Triune being nor did he love a Triune being “with all his heart and all his soul and all his strength.” Either Jesus knowingly disobeyed the Shema or the Shema is not referring to a Triune God. It is one or the other and there is no escaping that plain fact. Else Jesus also did not know his God was Triune like every other Jew (as Trinitarians claim), in which case, Jesus in his ignorance cannot possibly be the one God.

    Conclusion

    The undeniable facts confront us. (1) Jesus taught the Shema was the foremost command of the Law. (2) He agreed the Shema command “the Lord is one” meant that God is one single “HE.” (3) As a Jew born under the Law, he was circumcised into the Law and required to keep this command of the Law. (4) And the command was a command to all the people of Israel to serve “OUR God,” Israel’s God. Jesus interpreted and obeyed the command to serve “OUR God” by recognizing and serving only one person. Jesus himself clearly proves to us what the Shema means by how he obeyed the command to serve “OUR God.” He showed us that it necessarily means “the Father of Jesus is OUR God, the Father of Jesus is one” and that one must love the Father of Jesus with all his heart, soul, and strength. The testimony of Jesus’s obedience to the Shema command to serve “OUR God” decisively demonstrates that the God of Jesus, who was/is one person, is necessarily equivalent to the God of Israel.

    Should any of us reasonably suppose that when Jesus heard his brothers (Mary’s sons) citing the Shema that he was secretly thinking, “There they go talking about me again” or perhaps, “There they go talking about US again” (a three person being). It is simply ridiculous. Or shall we reasonably conclude that Jesus, like all his Jewish brethren, interpreted the Shema in the same way – by recognizing and obeying only the Father of Jesus as his only God since only the Father was their God too? Is that not what “OUR God” means? And indeed, at John 4:2-22, Jesus indicates to us that Jews had been worshiping the Father in Jerusalem, worshiping what “we know.”

    It should be quite clear to anyone that Jesus’ God was the Father alone and no one else. It should also be quite clear that Jesus was required to obey the Law and the Shema. It was not a Triune being which Jesus loved with all his heart and all his soul and all his mind. It was his Father alone. And if he indeed obeyed the Shema by serving and worshiping his Father alone as the only true God, then it should also be quite clear that only the Father is the one true God. Otherwise, Jesus knowingly disobeyed the Law and you are dead in your sins.

    Jesus specifically identified “OUR God” for us, Israel’s God; he identified the one God of the Shema command for us. And the way he did that for us is by showing us who someone under the Law must worship as his God: his Father alone. If Jesus worshiped the Father alone as his God but the God of the Shema, “OUR God,” was really a Triune being, then Jesus our Lord either misinterpreted or disobeyed the foremost command of the Law. Either that, or Jesus did it right and Trinitarians are disregarding the testimony of Jesus on the matter concerning the identity of “OUR God” whom Jesus was commanded to serve. To deny these facts is simply an irrational response for the sake of a man-made doctrine. Let every reasonable person see that the facts here undeniably prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that the God of the Shema is identical to the God of Jesus, his Father alone, and cannot be said to refer to a three person being without contradicting Scripture and the witness of Jesus Himself.

    “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” John 20:17

    Related Links: Deuteronomy 4:35 Deuteronomy 32:39 Mark 12:28-34

    Like

  28. Yayha Snow

    Did you see this ? I wrote it several days ago above.

    Yahya –
    . . . but in the spirit of peace and brotherhood in humanity, I apologize for judging your motives and thinking that you deliberately did that to cause disunity. Please forgive me.

    Like

    • Ken,

      Thanks but again this isn’t even about making judgements on motives. You can find proof that these comments and more were out in the public via Sam so obviously James and Sam weren’t united in the first place. So how could my post have caused disunity? I simply brought the critique – critique I agree with – to more eyes. James would have seen it and possibly have had that type of sentiment sent to him via pm from sam and others.

      I will accept your apology but I will urge you to consistency as you know full well James White divides Christians yet I don’t see you go at home like you did with me here.

      Ken I know some of these guys maybe your missionary elders but start looking into some of the posts and vids on folk like Jay Smith and toss aside any unwritten rule that missionaries cants rebuke others in public.

      Let’s here some of the good stuff from you. You’ll get more Muslims willing to take time to engage with you if they see you’re a man who shows substance and more integrity and honesty than the other missionaries.

      Like

  29. I am encouraged that Sam Shamoun has communicated to you and some others (Paul Williams and Ijaz Ahmad, and others maybe ( ?) – I don’t remember), to try and stop all the ad hominem and anger, mockery, and name calling. I was happy when I saw that communicated by Paul and you somewhere here.

    Beyond that, Robert Morey’s stuff is terrible and Dr. White rightly rebuked him. The fact the Morey called for bombing the cities of Mecca and Medina and used the word “vaporized” shows his ideas are much more than just bombing the Kaaba alone without killing any other people.

    You should have been more encouraged by Dr. White’s rebuke of Dr. Morey, than Dr. White’s critique of Leighton Flowers and some others (that I don’t what they were).

    That was my only point.

    Dr. White is very clear and careful; I have heard him say many times, that Calvinists should not call all Arminians and Molinists and Charismatics unbelievers; and I also, have been in a meeting, when Dr. White came to my city and taught, when some other Calvinists (they are very small and inward and wrong!) were trying to get him to push harder against other non-Calvinist Christians and say that Arminians have a false idea of who God is, and Dr. White correctly rebuked them to not go that far and to please not assign Arminians or Molinists like William Lane Craig to the flames of hell; and Charismatics like Dr. Michael Brown.

    I don’t spend time too much on trying to investigate everybody like Jay Smith or others. I have only made some comments on what I have seen. I don’t have time to go watch all the videos you make and other Muslims. I have only watched some every now and then over the years. I appreciate Dr. White’s call to be fair to Muslims, that is all; and to work hard at peace and make arguments against content and theology and not do what Sam Sh. used to do (responding wrong and constantly name-calling, etc.) I am happy that you guys seem to have agreed to work harder at being respectful to each other.

    Like

  30. Might christians agree to arrange a debate with Dr. Ehrman? It’s not necessarily to be with James.
    I really want to listen to Bart’s thoughts about this topic .

    Like

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  1. Dr. White’s correct rebuke of Robert Morey (and Part 2) | Apologetics and Agape

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