P1 – Obey the law! Paul (Muslim) vs Richard (Christian) | Speakers corner | Hyde Park

Filmed yesterday at Speakers Corner. Indepth discussion on the Jewish Law (Torah) of Jesus pbuh and how it was really interpreted. Richard is a writer on Blogging Theology.

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Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship, Christianity, Speakers Corner

11 replies

  1. This is an interesting discussion. I hope the next part will get into the OT laws a bit more. I just heard John Piper justify spanking children by appealing to the OT and then supporting the use of the OT through Matthew 5;18

    For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    What confuses me is how arbitrary Christians are when it comes to which laws in the OT they feel should apply today.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. Paul Williams says of Jesus in Matthew 5:17 “I have not come to abolish the law”, but this is not what Jesus said. Here is the verse:

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” (Matthew 5:17)

    Jesus said he has come to FULFILL the law, and this is quite different to what Paul Williams is claiming. Jesus’ death on the cross is a straight forward example of this. His death is the fulfilment of the sacrifices of atonement spelt out in the Torah and spoken about in the prophets for the future redemption. Thus Christians believe the Torah and its command for sacrifice but do not sacrifice now because Jesus has fulfilled this. This is not a rejection of the law but reading all scripture together. Regarding food, the Torah says different things at different times to different prophets. To Moses certain foods were forbidden, but to Noah, who is the covenant to the nations, all food is clean. Genesis 9:3. The Torah says that all food is clean for the nations of the world!

    Again Mr. Williams misquotes the apostle Paul in Ephesian 2:15. Paul is saying that we cannot approach God through our own righteous law keeping but only through God’s salvation in Jesus, in this sense the law is abolished. This is what the Torah, prophets, and Psalms said the future would be . The apostle Paul then commands us to KEEP the Torah in Ephesians 6:1. Why did Paul Williams ignore Ephesians 6:1?

    Regarding Jesus only being for the Jews and a teacher of Judaism, I am surprised that Paul Williams would support this speculation since the Qur’an says Jesus brought a new revelation and that it was different to the Torah.

    And [I (Jesus) have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. (Qur’an 3:50, Saheeh In.)

    What was forbidden to the Jews? Pork? Why not? Certainly the Qur’an says Jesus made forbidden things lawful for Christians. And who in the Qur’an are he “People of the Gospel”? It is not Jews but Greeks, Arabs, the nations. Therefore the Qur’an never says that the Gospel was only for the Jews.

    Paul Williams misquotes the Bible and the Qur’an.

    Like

    • Christians say that Jesus’ fulfillment of the law means he’s abolishing the law.
      If that had been true, why did Jesus say this in Matt5:19
      ” Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven”
      This verse is clearly against what Paul taught.
      Didn’t Jesus know that his fulfillment will cancel all the law, and then everyone of his follower would have to teach that not only is one of the least commandment cancelled, but also the whole law.
      Also, the church fathers’ position is not clear. Many things in the law were effective, and many were not.

      You talkedabout pork,
      We read in Isaiah 66:17 that God labled eating pork as abomination at the end of time while it’s supposed to be claen ?!

      Liked by 1 person

    • Reply to Green:

      1) where does Jesus say the Jewish Law (which he taught his disciples to carefully follow in Matthew) is abolished after his alleged crucifixion as you claim? Remember Jesus taught:

      Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practise what they teach.’ Matthew 23. You ignore this teaching.

      2) In Ephesians 2:15 the author (the letter is probably a forgery but we will let that pass) claims of Jesus

      He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances”. NRSV

      In Matthew 5 Jesus says the opposite of Ephesians:

      Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

      3) you bizarrely claim that “The apostle Paul then commands us to KEEP the Torah in Ephesians 6:1”

      Oh really? The verse in full reads “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.” This does not even mention the Torah!

      4) You say: “Regarding Jesus only being for the Jews and a teacher of Judaism, I am surprised that Paul Williams would support this speculation since the Qur’an says Jesus brought a new revelation and that it was different to the Torah.” Then you quote this English translation:

      And [I (Jesus) have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. (Qur’an 3:50, Saheeh In.)

      The verse says nothing of a “new revelation” as you claim.

      In Matthew 15:24 Jesus says, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” And in the same passage he calls a poor gentile woman a “dog” – a serious insult:

      And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.”

      Oddly you also claim “the Qur’an never says that the Gospel was only for the Jews.”
      But Quran agrees that Jesus was sent only to the Jews see 3:48-49

      5) “His death is the fulfilment of the sacrifices of atonement spelt out in the Torah”

      But human sacrifice is condemned by God many times in the Jewish Scriptures; Jesus was not even killed in the Temple or in Jerusalem, but outside of the city; he was not an unblemished offering having been beaten and whipped; and as Jesus is God in your belief system, he could not die anyway as God is “immortal” (1 Tim 6); there is no verse anywhere in the OT that speaks of the Messiah being an atoning sacrifice for sin that is a Christian fairy tale.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Samuel, John Piper seems to use Matthew 5 in the same way as Paul did.

      However where does this idea come from that the story about Jesus being murdered and rising again means the law is abolished? Did all early Christians believe the law was abolished?

      And do you believe the law is abolished? If so then doesn’t that mean the Bible doesn’t forbid crossdressing as Deut 22:5 is now null and void right according to your belief?

      Fancy donning a little pink number and getting on camera so some of the Internet weirdos can put your pic in their collection alongside the pic of David Wood in his get-up? After all, the law has been “fulfilled” and you’re not meant to be observing it now according to your worldview..

      Liked by 1 person

    • 😂😂😂
      Amazing video, Yahya.
      I think all christian debaters should wear that kind of outfit. Muslims should demand that from their christian opponents . That would be super funny😂

      Like

  3. Yahya you ask:

    “However where does this idea come from that the story about Jesus being murdered and rising again means the law is abolished? Did all early Christians believe the law was abolished?”

    The answer is a resounding NO!

    James and the Jewish Christians boasted to Paul:

    “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.” Acts 21

    Jesus’s disciples continued to sacrifice in the Temple according to Acts 3:1 (the hour of sacrifice).

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Hello Paul (I will repeat my reply from your identical comment on YouTube.)

    > 1) where does Jesus say the Jewish Law (which he taught his disciples to carefully follow in Matthew) is abolished after his alleged crucifixion as you claim? Remember Jesus taught:

    I never said that. I said it was fulfilled.

    > 2)
    Did you even read what I wrote? The apostle Paul in Ephesian 2:15. Paul is saying that we cannot approach God through our own righteous law keeping but only through God’s salvation in Jesus, in this sense the law is abolished. This is what the Torah, prophets, and Psalms said the future would be .

    > 3) you bizarrely claim that “The apostle Paul then commands us to KEEP the Torah in Ephesians 6:1” Oh really? The verse in full reads “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.” This does not even mention the Torah!

    Please read the the 10 Commandments Exodus 20:12. The 10 Commandments are part of the Torah.

    > 4 “And [I (Jesus) have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you.” (Qur’an 3:50, Saheeh In.) The verse says nothing of a “new revelation” as you claim.

    In the Qur’an Jesus brings the gospel (Q. 5:46) and this verse is explaining how the gospel is similar and different to the Torah.

    > In Matthew 15:24 Jesus says, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” And in the same passage he calls a poor gentile woman a “dog” – a serious insult:

    But then Jesus heals for daughter. The story does not end where you claim. It ends with Jesus blessing those outside of Israel. And the end of Matthew states this: “Go into all nations …”

    > But Quran agrees that Jesus was sent only to the Jews see 3:48-49

    The Quran never says ONLY. Yes Jesus was sent to a nation, as Muhammad was, but the people of the Gospel in the Qur’an are not Jews but Greeks, Arabs, etc.

    > there is no verse anywhere in the OT that speaks of the Messiah being an atoning sacrifice for sin that is a Christian fairy tale.

    God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son.

    Isaiah 53 is about the righteous servant of the LORD, the Messiah, and he gives his life for others.

    Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

    Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
    Isa 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

    Isa 53:10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
    Isa 53:11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
    Isa 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

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  5. Green you need to address the teaching of Jesus in Matthew’s gospel:

    He commanded his followers to obey ALL of the law (including the food laws, the death penally for apostasy, homosexuality, adultery etc)

    ‘Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practise what they teach..’ Matt 23

    and here:

    23 ‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practised without neglecting the others.

    Paul in Ephesians states the very opposite, thereby demonstrating he is not sent by God:

    “He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances..”

    Your words doe not connect at all with Paul’s teaching at this point.

    I stated ‘There is no verse anywhere in the OT that speaks of the Messiah being an atoning sacrifice for sin that is a Christian fairy tale.’

    And you said:

    ‘God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son.’

    So? Abraham was not the messiah! And the passage does not say the sacrifice was a sin offering. There are other kinds of offerings as Leviticus 4 and 5 describe.

    Your long quote from Isaiah 53 proves my point: nowhere does it mention a “messiah” – contrary to your claims. Scholars today understand it to be a reference to Israel. Go read an academic commentary.

    Like

  6. Richard looks so much like an eastern orthodox monk.

    Liked by 1 person

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