The men in the Jewish Bible who play the role of God (sharing dominion, worship, and the throne of Yahweh) and are even called ‘God’ (Yahweh and Elohim)

An interesting excerpt from the exciting new work A Man Attested by God: The Human Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels by Professor J.R. Daniel Kirk. Refuting recent work by scholars as Richard Bauckham, Simon Gathercole, and Richard Hays, Kirk demonstrates that Jesus was understood to be solely a human being by the synoptic Gospel writers whose language is rooted in the religious and literary context of early Judaism. There are a number of key passages in the Jewish Scriptures where men such as Moses, David & Solomon play the role of God (sharing dominion, worship, and the throne of Yahweh) and are even called ‘God’ (Yahweh and Elohim). A must read for Muslims.

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Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship, Recommended Reading

53 replies

  1. Early high Christology refuted! I recall reading and saving a similar comment from Dr Kirk from one of his old blog posts a few months back.

    I do wonder if Dr Kirk would debate this topic with Bauckham or some other major advocate of that movement. If Premier Christian radio can get so many debates featuring Bart Ehrman, why not Dr Kirk. Dr Kirk has debated his views on homosexual marriages with Dr Gagnon so he does debate. Perhaps the high Christology guys feel they’ve met their match in Dr Kirk

    Liked by 2 people

    • Hurtado demonstrated how Kirk’s use of OT texts doesn’t actually prove what he asserts.

      In fact, Kirk readily admits that Jesus is and was considered divine in the early Jesus movement and in other NT documents. He isn’t the hero you Muslims would like

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    • Paulus, I agree he isn’t the hero we would like.

      We do have Jesus as a hero, he never believed in the Trinity nor the idea of him being God. Can you argue against our hero?

      Liked by 3 people

    • Well in that case I have Muhammad who proclaimed the triune God 😂😂

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    • Paulus, no you don’t.

      You don;t even have Paul of Tarsus. He had no knowledge of a Trinity.

      You do have a load of popes, Nabeel Qureshi and pastor Steven Anderson though.Not too sure whether you have Joel Osteen..

      Liked by 5 people

    • Nonsense. Colossians 1:16 says:

      “for in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him”

      Saying Paul didnt believe in the trinity is like saying Colonel Sanders didnt believe in frying chicken.

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    • > Early high Christology refuted!

      Or possibly defended. The door swings both ways with this one.

      Like

    • Achillies

      That’s not the Trinity.

      It’s obvious Paul didn’t believe in the 4th century idea called the Trinity.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Okay. Yahya. Lets back up. Do you accept Thomas called Jesus “my Lord and my God”? And Colossians 1:16 is a clear statement by Paul that Jesus is the creator of heaven and earth.

      Now we can talk about the different formulations of the trinity later.

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    • Colossians 1:15: Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” ie a creature.

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    • Nope. First born in the Jewish context is heir. He can’t be a creature because the next verse says all things were created by him.

      Are you sure you ain’t a Jehovah Witness? They also try these sleight of hands with the scripture.

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    • so Jesus was born right – as in the first born of all creation.

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    • Even the Jehovah witnesses i have debated end up conceding first born means heir.

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    • the NRSV (a very good translation) reads: ‘the firstborn of all creation’

      ie first in order of birth. That is what the word means. God is eternal.

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    • Lol bilal you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. You are seriously contending that as a Muslim you believe Jesus was the literal firstborn of creation 😂😂😂😂

      Interesting that you have no interest in the Jewish context when it does t suit your agenda.

      The way you slice and shave the biblical text makes me surprised you gave up bacon and ham (assuming you don’t sneak some with your pot of tea?)

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    • It’s not about what I believe as a Muslim but what the text says. It says Jesus was the first to be born. Ergo he was not the eternal God. Simple.

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    • Paul wrote…

      “so Jesus was born right – as in the first born of all creation. ”

      First yes Jesus was born, he was fully man even you as a Muslim must believe that. So when was he born, You as a Muslim have no clue as to when your Islamic Isa ever existed much less when he was born. However we Christians do know when Jesus existed, he exited in what is known as the first century. So was this BEFORE creation?

      If not then clearly the phrase “first born of creation” means something other than when someone was born.

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    • “I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth (Psalm 89:27)”

      Bilal, given your reasoning, how could David, the youngest son, be the firstborn? 😂😂

      It means preeminent. Stop being such a wally. The longer you stay committing to Islam the further you walk away from sense and reasoning. It’s sad to watch really.

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    • As Jesus denied he was God in Mark 10 he must have been created and ‘born’ of God

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    • Actually Mark 10 is an affirmation of deity. Jews don’t like to talk about God so when the rich young man says to Jesus “good teacher what must i do to inherit eternal life”? He was really saying how do I know God?

      Jesus does not deny being God. He says to him “why do you call me good? Only God is good” In other words, If only God is good and I am good then a priori I am God.

      You have also destroyed your own argument about Job. You know about being “blameless and upright” and therefore not needing a saviour.

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  2. Are trinitarians going to add few more gods to their belief? What will we call it? Quadrality, Fiverality?

    Liked by 3 people

  3. “And of course neither he nor I see the Gospels as arguments against a divine Christology.” Kirk

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  4. Dr Kirk does not believe that Jesus is YHWH. Dr Ehrman does not believe that the NT writers believed that Jesus was YHWH and claims this is the majority view amongst scholars.

    Liked by 3 people

  5. Very interesting !
    I think that why jews and christians both need Islam to understand the Life hereafter. This concept, which is one of Faith article in Islam, is so blurry and corrupted in Judaism and christianity.
    In early Christianity many believed that they would become gods eventually such as Athanasius of Alexandria.
    Passages such as Ephesians 4:13 or Rev 3:21 are very challenging for christians.
    If that idea were found in Judaism about men in throne of God, it’s probably a hellenistic idea. What we expect from people being told that Jesus has been taken alive to heaven?

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Exceptional post Br Paul Williams. I really hope you post more of these, specifically about this contentious topic. So if numerous Men and Objects are given the Attributes of God and are called God and are given the Glory of God, why do Trinitarians not call them God? Yet they believe Jesus is God? Why so inconsistent Denis Giron?

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Paul, can you please cite a case where a MAN or HUMAN BEING is called Yahweh.

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  8. Paul could you clarify something, the title of you article…

    “The men in the Jewish Bible who play the role of God (sharing dominion, worship, and the throne of Yahweh) and are even called ‘God’ (Yahweh and Elohim)”

    Seems to indicate that Men are not only called god (Elohim) but they are also called by Gods name “YHWH”.
    Reading over your screen shots I see no indication of where the author states this, and I know of NO verse in the OT that calls a man by Gods Name?

    Was this your intent to imply that men are called by Gods Name?

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    • Actually there are many verses where human beings are called “God”.

      Try Psalm 45 & Isaiah 9 for starters..

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    • Yes Paul I am perfectly aware that many people are called god but that wasn’t my question now was it.
      My question is can you point to where the author of you are appealing to either states out right or implies that any one is called by Gods NAME?

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    • Ah Bobby. Sarcasm.

      Kirk has written over 600 pages on this very subject in his new book. Go and read it. Duh.

      I think your email address is funny

      shakesmyheadandwagsmyfinger@yahoo.com

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    • Ahh Pauly Muslim as usual.

      So no where does the author state it, and no where does he imply it, and no where does the bible say such a thing. But your article clearly says it. “are even called ‘God’ (Yahweh and Elohim) ”

      So that would mean that you are what Paul?

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    • You have not read the book, obviously.

      Don’t be a fool.

      The Bible calls the king of Israel “God” in Psalm 45 verses 6 & 7. Go figure dude.

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    • Psalm 45 (NRSV)

      Ode for a Royal Wedding

      To the leader: according to Lilies. Of the Korahites. A Maskil. A love song.

      1 My heart overflows with a goodly theme;
      I address my verses to the king;
      my tongue is like the pen of a ready scribe.
      2 You are the most handsome of men;
      grace is poured upon your lips;
      therefore God has blessed you for ever.
      3 Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,
      in your glory and majesty.
      4 In your majesty ride on victoriously
      for the cause of truth and to defend[a] the right;
      let your right hand teach you dread deeds.
      5 Your arrows are sharp
      in the heart of the king’s enemies;
      the peoples fall under you.
      6 Your throne, O God, endures for ever and ever.
      Your royal sceptre is a sceptre of equity;
      7 you love righteousness and hate wickedness.
      Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
      with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;

      8 your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia.
      From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad;
      9 daughters of kings are among your ladies of honour;
      at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.
      10 Hear, O daughter, consider and incline your ear;
      forget your people and your father’s house,
      11 and the king will desire your beauty.
      Since he is your lord, bow to him;
      12 the people[c] of Tyre will seek your favour with gifts,
      the richest of the people 13 with all kinds of wealth.
      The princess is decked in her chamber with gold-woven robes;[d]
      14 in many-coloured robes she is led to the king;
      behind her the virgins, her companions, follow.
      15 With joy and gladness they are led along
      as they enter the palace of the king.
      16 In the place of ancestors you, O king,[e] shall have sons;
      you will make them princes in all the earth.
      17 I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations;
      therefore the peoples will praise you for ever and ever.

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    • Isaiah 9 (NRSV)

      The Righteous Reign of the Coming King

      9 But there will be no gloom for those who were in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations.

      2 The people who walked in darkness
      have seen a great light;
      those who lived in a land of deep darkness—
      on them light has shined.
      3 You have multiplied the nation,
      you have increased its joy;
      they rejoice before you
      as with joy at the harvest,
      as people exult when dividing plunder.
      4 For the yoke of their burden,
      and the bar across their shoulders,
      the rod of their oppressor,
      you have broken as on the day of Midian.
      5 For all the boots of the tramping warriors
      and all the garments rolled in blood
      shall be burned as fuel for the fire.
      6 For a child has been born for us,
      a son given to us;
      authority rests upon his shoulders;
      and he is named
      Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God,
      Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
      7 His authority shall grow continually,
      and there shall be endless peace
      for the throne of David and his kingdom.
      He will establish and uphold it
      with justice and with righteousness
      from this time onwards and for evermore.

      The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

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    • Paul Paul Paul, you made a claim that people are called “Yahweh” now back it up. Provide your evidence sir. The issue is NOT if people where called god, yes that is TRUE. The issue is if anyone was ever called YHWH as you stated in the title of your article. Now back up that claim.

      BTW I am curious why do you post my email address? I mean are you hoping that your follower will spam me with Islamic bridal magazines?

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    • I have provided the evidence. You are seriously dense.

      Your email address is funny.

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    • ‘But please provide evidence that anyone is called YHWH?’

      There something wrong with our brain.

      Like

  9. The king is only a symbolic figurehead in psalm 45. It is a prophetic psalm. No one is worshipping the earthly figure represented. The writer is inspired to focus on the real subject of the psalm which is the Messiah.

    This is insulting to Jews to claim that they did not know the difference between their earthly king and Jehovah.

    Jesus also confirms this:

    Luke 24 v 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

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    • For all your protests the King is still clearly addressed as God in the psalm, as he is in Isaiah 9 too. There is no mention of a messiah in psalm 45.

      Solomon and Yahweh are both worshiped in 1 Chronicles 29:20.

      There are many other similar examples in Judaism.

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    • 1 Chronicles 29:20 does not say that. It says the people “prostrated before Yahweh and their king”.

      If prostration is worship, then I guess Muslims worship Allah and the Kaaba?

      This is the silly result when you use liberal Christian scholarship- the same arguments falsify Islam too.

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    • “To take one example, it is really not clear that 1 Chronicles 29:20 will bear the weight of Kirk’s repeated claim that it reflects the cultic worship of the Judean king. Clearly, YHWH is the sole recipient of the prayers and sacrifice here. In this context the lonely reference to the assembly bowing their heads and prostrating themselves to God and to the king hardly amounts to evidence of some royal cult in which the king received worship jointly with God. And the honorific language in texts such the royal wedding laudation in Psalm 45 won’t make the case either”~ Dr Larry Hurtado

      Like

Trackbacks

  1. Are there are any OT Prophets that are said to be God Like Jesus? – Answering Islam Blog

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