Thoughts on the Limited Atonement Battle between Sam Shamoun and James White

I am not sure whether there is something in Dr James White’s claim of Sam Shamoun’s repudiation of Limited Atonement theology was out of spite following Sam’s acrimonious break-up  with James. We can’t be sure although Sam has previous form.  Sam has publicly stated a Muslim, many years ago, who embarrassed Sam and attacked Christianity was a springboard for his anti-Islam polemics, which have now occupied decades of his life, so there is something in Sam’s character where his theology is moved by emotion – specifically negative emotions.

In British churches there is, as Dr Joseph Shaw speaks of, an emasculation of men in churches and I would hazard this makes many prone to be excessively emotional. In the churches and church group that I visit I do feel some men in those churches do seem to more feminised/emasculated than average British men.

Snapshot - 16Having said all that, Sam Shamoun is faced with the very real question of why has he not renounced the Trinity doctrine yet? If he can now reject Limited Atonement which has a stronger and clearer superficial case to being Biblical than the Trinity then why not denounce the Trinity as unbiblical?

Trinitarian apologists contend for the idea of the Trinity by amalgamating a number of Biblical verses together and reading into those meshed verses the doctrine of the Trinity including the limit of three persons despite Christians now openly admitting there is no limit of three persons in the Bible as well as introducing the concept of personhood which has also been shown to be an external thought added to the New Testament as there is not Biblical differentiation between being and personhood . In a nutshell, what the Trinity advocates do, is eisegesis not exegesis via imaginative hermeneutic gymnastics. It’s awfully unconvincing.

On the other hand, the proponents of PR/LA may point to one individual in the Bible and a specific verse  to argue for their doctrine. They argue John teaches this and point to, what appears on the surface level, three pretty clear verses.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [John 15]

And John 10:

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Is Sam going to claim that Jesus believes Muslims are his friends? Sam, do you believe your god died for us and considers us his friends?

Sam, does this mean, you believe the man you consider to be God believes Muslims and other non-Christians whom you believe to be the sons of Satan are the friends of your god? Do you not think there’s a contradiction here? And what of your prophet (Paul of Tarsus) who cursed people who did not believe the same as him, do you believe he was cursing the sheep and friends of Jesus?

And what about the Jews and Romans who were purportedly behind the crucifixion of Jesus, do you believe they were Jesus’ friends and Jesus died for them?

Notice how the advocates of Limited Atonement can argue simply from certain NT texts and can ask questions which make the Christian opposition appear contradictory.

Trinitarian apologists cannot argue simply from the NT. They can’t point to a specific verse nor can they point to a specific author or individual in the Bible to argue for the doctrine of the Trinity. So much so that even Paul of Tarsus isn’t even thought of as a Trinitarian.

If in addition we think of Paul as an orthodox Christian, we will only misinterpret him that much more. He’s living in a period where he’s not thinking in a Trinitarian manner. The idea of the Trinity hasn’t been conceived yet. His letters will have Jesus Christ in them; they will have God the Father in them; he will talk about the Spirit of God. Those are the textual origins that will be used to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity, but Paul’s not thinking in a Trinitarian way.  [Paula Fredricksen]

The same obviously can be said of Jesus and his disciples: they had no knowledge of the Trinity as the Trinity doctrine was a construct that came about through later philosophy – it came about after Nicaea.

My questions to Sam have to be, why has he not rejected the Trinity belief? If he has, is he willing to go on public record? I understand he was racially abused for simply teaching the Bible’s age of consent but if Sam is consistent and has rejected the Trinity doctrine along with Limited atonement then he should be brave enough to make this known.

Unrelated but serious minded Christians who follow Christian apologetics may want to have a look at Dr Andy Bannister’s use of Dr Mike Licona

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Categories: Islam

39 replies

  1. James White: Shame on Sam Shamoun for Rejecting Bible Teachings Because he Hates Me!

    Liked by 3 people

    • Williams, you are considerably smarter than that. This only proves my point of how repulsively arrogant White is since this shows just highly he thinks of himself that he would slander me by insinuating that i would abandon something just because of him.

      Now to be fair you need to post my reply to this nonsense:

      BEGIN
      Please pass this on to White again. In the last minutes of his DL show yesterday White read my challenge to debate him on Limited Atonement. Instead of accepting my challenge White went on a condescending rant about why the passages he calls the big 3 (Matthew 23:37, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) are not about limited atonement but about unconditional election. In his repulsive ad hominem response he condescendingly tries to make it seem as if I somehow don’t understand the issue and have lost it. 😉

      In light of his arrogant rant let me now show you why it is White who really has no clue what the issues are. I highly encourage everyone to listen to the beginning of his tirade against David Allen so you can see what the issue is all about. White claims to be addressing the section of Allen’s book addressing White’s book. Guess what folks? ONE OF THE PASSAGES THAT ALLEN RESPONDS TO IS MATTHEW 23:37, WHICH IS ONE OF THE BIG THREE! You see what happens when in your arrogance you really think you happen to be above reproach and God’s gift to the church? How could I not understand the issues WHEN MY CHALLENGE WAS IN THE VERY CONTEXT OF WHITE GOING AFTER ALLEN’S BOOK WHICH DEALT SPECIFICALLY WITH WHITE’S INTERPRETATION OF MATTHEW 23:37? I am starting to feel rather embarrassed for him since this rant shows that he really has no clue what the issues are and is willing to stoop to the bottom of the barrel in order to vilify all those who would dare stand up to his arrogance and mistreatment of fellow Christian brothers.

      Besides, I didn’t insist that we only debate the big 3 but said I would be glad to debate him on the general topic of limited atonement. But in his attempt to play to his fan base and save face White ignored that and chose to focus on what he thought would make him look good by making me look bad.

      However, what makes this all the more interesting is that, despite all his ranting and raving and ad hominem, WHITE NEVER ACCEPTED MY DEBATE CHALLENGE! Can anyone guess why? And if I am so ignorant of the doctrine THEN WHY DOESN’T WHITE DEBATE ME AND PUT ME IN MY PLACE, as he is so eager to do with Allen? We all know the real reason as to why he chose to attack my character as opposed to stepping up to the plate and debating me.

      Like I said, the man’s arrogance and ego has gotten out of control (just as his cheap nasty ad hominem against me shows), which is why I said he really needs to repent and step down. He is showing more and more by his rants and mistreatment of fellow Christians, and his love fest with Muslims, that he is truly unfit to remain an elder and an apologist representing Christians.

      P.S.
      Let me implode White’s lie for a second time. As many of my brothers and sisters can testify I did not leave Limited Atonement because of my trying to get back at White. That is a boldfaced lie which only goes to show the arrogance and repulsive attitude of this man. I left it many moons ago because I could no longer reconcile this doctrine with what I saw in Scripture. Moreover, White complains about me posting videos from Steven Anderson even though this is the same man that praised an anti-Trinitarian Muhammadan named Yasir Qadhi whose religion makes it mandatory to blaspheme the true God and malign his Gospel, even going so far as to call him his mentor! At least Anderson is a Trinitarian who does acknowledge and worship the true God, not blaspheme him as White’s mentor does. Therefore, what does this say about White who insults and belittles me for posting SOME stuff (not all) from Anderson that are quite good and spot on (even though I have spoken out against his many errors and unchristlike behavior), while praising and bringing in an anti-Trinitarian Muhammadan who is all for the implementation of shariah into a church to spread his propaganda?

      Like I said, this man’s hypocrisy, nasty behavior and arrogance is truly repulsive and reprehensible and he truly does need to repent.

      PPS.
      For those interested in reading where Dr. Allen mentions White’s eisegesis of the big 3, i.e. Matthew 23:37-39, 1 Timothy 2:4, and 2 Peter 3:9, and specifically his handling of Matthew 23:37, it’s found on pp. 550-551 of his book “The Extent of the Atonement.” This should serve as a lesson for White that he should think twice before going on a rant and assuming he knows what he is talking about since we all know what happens whenever someone assumes they know what they are talking about before checking out the facts. 😉
      END

      Here is what a person posted in refutation of White’s arrogant rant:

      BEGIN
      As a witness for Sam Shamoun, I can tell you right off the bat, Sam abandoned particular redemption years ago. I know this, because two years ago Sam and I were together, I was unsettled in the Spirit when defending and promoting particular redemption as a doctrinal truth. Not knowing Sam’s thoughts, I asked him for his position, and I still remember his reaction, which was a calm smile as he began to explain his history with the doctrine and his abandonment. The verse the Holy Spirit was pleased to use to draw him out of this tradition was 2 peter 2:1. After listening to the last five minutes of James white’s DL, I noticed he is truly a bully and if you touch his idol (TULIP), he’ll snap. However, I was surprised yet not stunned, he did not take Sam’s open debate challenge and instead attempted to poison the well as he mocked Sam. After reading Sam’s response here, I see James White is in fact terrified of debating Sam on particular redemption, the big three and whether or not ISIS is carrying out stage three tactics implemented by allah and his false messenger Muhammad. James White is in fact a bully, and those of you who don’t see it, it is simply because “love covers a multitude of sins,” and your continued support for such behavior is proof of this text. Our allegiance should be to the triune God and His Word first
      END

      And here is what a pastor friend of mine sent me:

      BEGIN
      Just posted this and then deleted because I don’t even want my followers, who are mostly young in the Lord to be introduced to White’s ministry or treatment of others-
      But just know, those who know you- know the truth—

      I can confirm as well- Sam Shamoun shared with me his beliefs during White’s 2014 debate with Brown on the subject. Plus, he shared that he even sent some goodies Brown’s way to help with some points. And that was when he and White were “friends,” it was never personal with Sam.

      Also, even before that Sam was not happy with White because of his attitude and talked about how much more he respected Brown and Craig in their dialogues with Christians.

      It is untrue to say otherwise.

      Love you Sam!
      END

      BTW Williams, did you notice how angry he got at my challenge while never actually accepting it?

      And don’t forget Williams that you yourself have gone after men like Adnan Rashid, Adam Deen and Abdullah Andalusi for their issues, which I actually admired. I am doing the very same thing, this time with someone who thinks he is above reproach and has created an atmosphere where he has admirers and followers as opposed to peers and equals whom he is accountable and submits to.

      Like

    • Shamu the Whale, discredited everywhere even by his own fellow Trinitarian brethren. Shame on the Shamu!

      Like

  2. Shamoun was properly rebuked here earlier, which you guys also reported.
    Just saying again, because it needs to be said again.
    Sam needs to repent of his sinful anger, bombast, name calling, and bad witness to Muslims, and violating 1 Peter 3:15 and Ephesians 4:15.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Williams, Ken perfectly illustrates what I mean when I said White attracts fan boys and groupies. Unfortunately, Ken is one of the most vile of White’s fan boys since his fascination of White borders on idolatry. To be frank, Ken’s love of White is disgusting and repulsive to say the least.

      And just to prove to you I am not the only one disgusted with White’s disgusting attitude and treatment of fellow Christians here is a video from a Christian who highlights White’s repulsive attitude, with the title pretty much saying it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFYqJWpcZEQ

      Here is another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_PUvYZDsOU

      I can post many more from many different Christians who all say the same thing about White, but this should suffice.

      With that said Williams, don’t take anything Ken says with any seriousness since he is nothing more than a man worshiper to be quite frank and needs to be rebuked and called to repentance for idolising White.

      Like

    • One Christian calling another Christian “a man worshipper.”

      Am I in the twilight zone?

      Liked by 6 people

    • The only thing, it *perfectly illustrates* is that you ShameOn is a disgrace to humanity.

      Liked by 1 person

    • LOL I enjoyed watching this.

      Like

  3. Sam, this post is not an invitation for you to insult Dr White. I don;t care what personal beef you have with him. Dr White and I don;t get on but I cannot condone you calling him vile etc and carrying on like you normally do when ranting and raving at Muslims online.

    Can you answer the questions at the end of the post? Thanks

    Liked by 4 people

    • Yahya, I don’t answer to you and I don’t care about your post. I am speaking to Williams. Give me a time and date where you man up this time and debate me and watch how I answer your questions. So when can you join me for a “discussion” for all to see how well you handle yourself against me?

      Like

    • Sam, you tried to recruit me and other Muslims to attack White a few months ago when you were being criticised by James White regarding the Morey/Shk. Qadhi stuff.

      Please stop with these rants about James White.

      Liked by 3 people

    • To call out your lies and bluff, post the exchanges we had where I tried to recruit a vile lying slime like yourself.

      Now instead of avoiding my challenge, give me a time and date where we can have a “dialogue” so I can answer your questions for all to see. With that said, I won’t be responding to your trash anymore since, like Ken, you happen to be one of the vilest individuals I have ever met.

      Like

    • Sam, you were constantly trying to entice us to attack James. Ask Ijaz.

      As for dialogue discussions, email me…

      Liked by 1 person

    • Sam,

      You asked both of us to come on board and post against White. We all have the emails. Have some dignity mate, this is just shameful.

      Liked by 6 people

  4. Sam wrote:
    . . . someone who thinks he is above reproach and has created an atmosphere where he has admirers and followers as opposed to peers and equals whom he is accountable and submits to.

    Like all your “fanboys” and “idols” at your Facebook page?

    Most anyone who disagrees with you, you either hit back with lots of name calling and ad hominem and sinful anger and then ban them if they try to argue with you; or you just ban anyone who disagrees, from what little I have noticed there.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Thank you for not denying you are a fan boy and idolater. Now is Leighton Flowers, David Allen, Mike Licona to name a few my fanboys, men who are disgusted by White’s behavior and vile arrogant attitude towards them? What about Joel McDurmond? Is he a fanboy too? Fact is you are a vile hypocrite who idolizes White which is why you have yet to rebuke him for his repulsive nasty treatment of Christians while whining and complaining about my attitude. Truly wicked and reprehensible.Time for you to step away from the internet and seem genuine repentance. You are a disgrace.

      Like

    • I deny I am a “fanboy” (whatever that means); and I am not an idolater. Just because I think Dr. White is a better apologist than you and he does a great job in his debates and demeanor, does not mean I worship him or idolize him, etc. Dr. White properly shares the gospel with Muslims with a proper balance of “speaking the truth in love” and treating Muslims and others with respect, IMO.

      I am disappointed in the way Mike Licona has answered apologetic issues and debates in recent years. He seems to not really believe in inerrancy, even though he says he does. But Dr. White does not attack him personally, the way you do, Sam, when anyone disagrees with you. You have a pugnacious and angry character.

      Dr. White was very respectful in his debate with Leighton Flowers on Romans 9. He analyzes with passion on DL, but he does not call people names or go overboard like you do, Sam.

      Like

    • I’m a Calvinist Trinitarian and I think there’s much, much, much more evidence for the Trinity than for Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption (PR/LA). The evidence for Limited Atonement is so weak that I’m not dogmatic about it at all. I prefer it because it makes sense logically and theologically, but Scripturally, the evidence for it is scant. That’s why I have a whole blog devoted to defending the Trinity, while I don’t even have one blogpost defending PR/LA (as far as I can remember).

      My blog on the Trinity is titled Trinity Notes
      http://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/

      Also, I found an interesting website that documents how many Calvinists in times past have historically rejected a (John) Owenian-like version of Limited Atonement. It’s part of Calvinistic history that most modern Calvinists are completely ignorant of. The website is Calvin and Calvinism:
      http://calvinandcalvinism.com/

      Like

    • Thank you for not denying you are a fan boy and idolater. Now is Leighton Flowers, David Allen, Mike Licona to name a few my fanboys, men who are disgusted by White’s behavior and vile arrogant attitude towards them? What about Joel McDurmond? Is he a fanboy too? Fact is you are a vile hypocrite who idolizes White which is why you have yet to rebuke him for his repulsive nasty treatment of Christians while whining and complaining about my attitude. Truly wicked and reprehensible.Time for you to step away from the internet and seem genuine repentance. You are a disgrace.

      Like

    • Just because I think Dr. White has the proper apologetic approach and better attitude toward Muslims than you, Sam, does not mean I am an “idolater” or “fanboy”, etc.

      I don’t worship him; I appreciate his good material and methods.

      I have appreciated a lot of your material also, when it does not have the sinful anger and name calling and ad hominem stuff that seems to be your deep character flaw – you are pugnacious (have a spirit and attitude that always fights back with anger and vengence).

      Like

    • I think Dr. Allen started the tension with Dr. White when Dr. Allen called Dr. White a “hyper-Calvinist”, which is a lie and as far as I can tell, Dr. Allen has never apologized for that. Dr. White is more evangelistic than Dr. Allen is, and has engaged a lot of unbelievers, atheists, liberals, Roman Catholics, Mormons, JWs, etc. so Dr. Allen should apologize.

      Like

    • Ken, will you now condemn your idol FOR ALL ALSO BLOCKING AND BANNING EVERYONE WHO CALLS HIM OUT AND PUTS HIM IN HIS PLACE?

      Now watch this hypocrite make excuses for White doing the very thing he just condemned me for.

      Like I said Ken, you are vile and really no better than Yahya. What makes it worse is you claim to be a Christian. I expect this from Yahya seeing who his profit is but not from you.

      Like

    • 1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
      2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

      3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
      4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
      5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
      6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
      7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

      1 Timothy 3:1-7
      New American Standard Bible

      Qualifications for overseers/elders/pastors – the same goes for missionaries, evangelists, and apologists.

      Like

    • Sam Shamoun’s deep character:

      pug·na·cious
      pəɡˈnāSHəs/
      adjective
      eager or quick to argue, quarrel, or fight.
      “the increasingly pugnacious demeanor of politicians”
      synonyms: combative, aggressive, antagonistic, belligerent, bellicose, warlike, quarrelsome, argumentative, contentious, disputatious, hostile, threatening, truculent;

      Like

    • Folks, did you catch how Ken again justified his idol’s nasty attack on Allen by trying to blame Allen for White’s attitude problem and mistreatment of fellow Christians simply because White got angry at Allen for stating the fact of White being a high or hyper calvinist which he certainly is? And did you notice that he used Allen as a scapegoat to get you to forget the fact that White has also been nasty towards people like Licona, Flowers, Craig just to name a few? Do you guys need any more proof that Ken virtually worships White and CAN NEVER, EVER call him out and condemn him for being a nasty arrogant pride filled human being?

      Once again Ken, thank you for proving my point. It’s best you just stop texting since you end up condemning yourself with every post.

      Seriously examine your heart and repent of your man worship.

      Like

    • Sam, you are a nutter. Your method is: “come and debate me you vile scumbag idiot hypocrite, etc.” How or why would anyone want to debate you when you keep acting like that?

      Liked by 2 people

    • WOW KEN! THANK YOU FOR PROVING LEIGHTON FLOWER’S POINT!

      Don’t you realize you just condemned your idol and vindicated Flowers who said in that video that I linked to that why would Allen, Craig or any serious scholar ever want to debate White when he acts like he is in a school yard scuffle and therefore has no class or respect?

      So do you see Ken how blind you are due to your love fair with White since your very own criticism comes back to expose you as an inconsistent troll for failing to condemn and rebuke your idol for doing the very same you just condemned me for?

      Like I said, time for you to put down the incense and destroy the idol of White that you keep next to your bed.

      Like

    • Sam,
      Except Dr. White never says “you vile idiot slimeball hypocrite fanboy idolater” like you do. Dr. White calls their theology wrong, unBiblical, sub-Biblical, weak, lacking in exegesis, putting philosophy before exegesis, inconsistent, etc. but he never calls them names like you do. You are the one who inconsistent and blinded by your sinful anger.

      Like

  5. I posted the following in the wrong thread. So, I’m reposting it.

    I’m a Calvinist Trinitarian and I think there’s much, much, much more evidence for the Trinity than for Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption (PR/LA). The evidence for Limited Atonement is so weak that I’m not dogmatic about it at all. I prefer it because it makes sense logically and theologically, but Scripturally, the evidence for it is scant. That’s why I have a whole blog devoted to defending the Trinity, while I don’t even have one blogpost defending PR/LA (as far as I can remember).

    My blog on the Trinity is titled Trinity Notes
    http://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/

    Also, I found an interesting website that documents how many Calvinists in times past have historically rejected a (John) Owenian-like version of Limited Atonement. It’s part of Calvinistic history that most modern Calvinists are completely ignorant of. The website is Calvin and Calvinism:
    http://calvinandcalvinism.com/

    Like

  6. Williams, thank you for allowing my posts to come through. Much appreciated. Like I said, you will always be my favorite Muslim. I don’t know why, but I really, really like, despite the vitriol and abuse you hurl at me and other Christians.

    When you are in Chi-town look me up since I would love to show you around.

    Now unless these guys have anything worthwhile to say for me to respond to, I bid you farewell… FOR NOW!

    Like

  7. Sam, please stop using a handle to attack Ken. You have not interacted with post.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Dr. White is strong vs. William Lane Craig, Mike Licona and Flowers, but he argues against their theology and issues; he does not attack them personally, the way you do. (with anyone who disagrees with you, you attack them personally; you are a pugnacious man – violation of 1 Timothy 3:3 and 3:7.

    Like

  9. Holy war

    Like

  10. I agree with White that the bible clearly asserts that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same God. Also the bible asserts the truth of the limited atonement.

    Only those with prejudicial bias can deny this.

    My only disagreement with White would be on his kjv only stance. I have a perfect bible that I can hold in my hands. I don’t have to wait till the textual critics can give me one. That day will never come.

    Did God promise to preserve his words for us, the common people, to read or not? Do I have to learn greek and textual criticism first, or have a doctor title? NO.

    Spurgeon for one didn’t think that limited atonement was a peripheral issue. See the downgrade controversy. He certainly believed that Arminianism was a false belief.

    For me those who call themselves calvinists should adhere to all the 5 points, and not pick and choose, and still think of themselves as calvinist.

    Like

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