Protect ALL life

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Categories: Abortion, Evil, Feminism

121 replies

  1. HI Paul-
    I agree. Have you seen the recent Yaqeen study on abortion though? I found it highly interesting.

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  2. Killing apostates is murder as well.

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  3. Does this equation include valuing the woman’s life?

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    • Why would anyone not value a woman’s life?? We are saying that both lives, in fact all lives are valued.

      In the case of medical emergency where woman’s life is threatened by a pregnancy, I think that is a different but related subject. Most people, I think, would make an exception in that case.

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    • But what if the woman never wanted kids, and through rape, or coercion, or failed contraceptives, ends up pregnant? Is it fair to expect her to sacrifice her ambitions and plans? Her life, in a metaphysical sense, is often deemed meaningless in comparison to the foetus. She can raped, and yet still be expected to go through with the pregnancy, because of skewed societal expectations that pigeon-hole women and force them to play certain roles. None of that seems particularly fair, nor caring for a woman’s life.

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    • Darthtimon – Life is not fair. Go and smell the coffee

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    • That’s a non-answer Paul, that reeks of ignorance. Are you seriously hinting that a woman who has been raped or forced into sex should then be expected to proceed with the physical and emotional turmoil of a pregnancy she didn’t want, and curtail her hopes and dreams for the future? That doesn’t seem very pro-life to me…

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    • Killing children – your solution – is barbaric and evil. I dont know how you can even contemplate it!

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    • That’s merely your distorted take on it. I trust from your evasion of the question that it needs repeating – . Are you seriously hinting that a woman who has been raped or forced into sex should then be expected to proceed with the physical and emotional turmoil of a pregnancy she didn’t want, and curtail her hopes and dreams for the future?

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    • You would kill the baby to solve the problem? Yes. Murder is never a solution. Only barbarians would argue that murder should be permitted as a ‘right’.

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    • False dichotomy. It may be unpalatable for you to consider this, but most abortions take place when the ‘baby’ is a collection of cells that is totally dependant upon the mother’s body and in fact draining the mother’s body. The choice is between one fully-formed human being and one in the earliest stages of development. Now, will you address the question? Are you seriously hinting that a woman who has been raped or forced into sex should then be expected to proceed with the physical and emotional turmoil of a pregnancy she didn’t want, and curtail her hopes and dreams for the future? 

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    • I have already answered your question. Dont be obtuse.

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    • No you haven’t, you’ve completely avoided it to hurl insults at me. I’ll ask again – Are you seriously hinting that a woman who has been raped or forced into sex should then be expected to proceed with the physical and emotional turmoil of a pregnancy she didn’t want, and curtail her hopes and dreams for the future? 

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    • dude you are turning onto a pest. You are better than that. Grow up!

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    • I am merely doing what you have done on numerous occasions to me Paul. Why is it acceptable for you to carry out this sort of hardline repeat of questions, yet not someone else?

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    • You are being childish.

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    • Then that is merely a reflection of your own discussion style, as represented by several of our past discussions.

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    • You are validating my point Paul. Your posts are evasive and getting ruder with each new entry. Am I calling you childish? No. I am basing my statements on direct observations of your behaviour.

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    • you are behaving like an adolescent. If you don’t like it go away.

      No one is forcing you to come to my blog.

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    • Why do you get so rude when faced with your own debate style? Why is it acceptable for you to behave in this manner, yet no one else?

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    • You might also want to consider engaging a few women in regards to this topic. It would help to broaden your perspective.

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    • OK. Lets hear from women who have been raped:

      Raped women who had their babies defy pro-choice stereotypes

      Anyone who is been in the pro-life movement for a while has been confronted with the argument “Shouldn’t abortion be legal in cases where the woman has been raped?”

      Even though, according to Planned Parenthood’s own statistics, less than 1% of all abortions are performed on women who were raped or were victims of incest, pro-choice activists insist that abortion must be legal for these women, even if it leads to thousands of women a year having abortions for other reasons.

      In fact, Roe v. Wade was based on the rape argument– Norma McCorvey, the plaintiff Jane Roe, claimed that she had been gang-raped and needed an abortion. Years later, she admitted that the rape story was false and was made up in order to garner sympathy for the pro-choice cause.

      Pro-choicers have been very successful in convincing the general public that rape victims need abortions. Implied is the belief that women who are pregnant by rape cannot possibly want their children, that they could never be happy giving birth, and that it is completely unnatural for a woman to want to have a rapist’s baby.

      When pro-choice activists argue that abortion must be legal in cases of rape, there is always one thing missing from their rhetoric – the voices of women who were raped and kept their babies. These are the people whom the pro-life and pro-choice movements should be listening to. These are the people who are intimately acquainted with the emotional trauma of rape and the horror of a pregnancy resulting from rape. And what they’re saying may surprise you.

      Kathleen DeZeeuw, the mother of a child conceived in rape, spoke out against pro-choicers who were making the argument that abortion must be legal in cases of rape:

      I, having lived through rape, and also having raised a child ‘conceived in rape’, feel personally assaulted and insulted every time I hear that abortion should be legal because of rape and incest. I feel that we’re being used to further the abortion issue, even though we’ve not been asked to tell our side of the story. (1)

      How should people respond to a woman who has been raped and is considering abortion? DeZeeuw says:

      As I stated before, a woman is most vulnerable at a time such as this, and doesn’t need to be pounced on by yet another act of violence. She needs someone to truly listen to her, care for her, and give her time to heal. (2)

      DeZeeuw claims that many times, rape victims are pressured into having abortions by those around them. People are often very uncomfortable around a rape victim. They don’t know how to deal with her trauma, they don’t know how to comfort her, and many times they wish the problem would just go away, that she would “get over” it. These feelings are exacerbated when the rape victim is pregnant. When they say that a rape victim is constantly reminded of the assault by her pregnancy, they are actually saying that they themselves are constantly reminded of the assault by seeing her pregnant. While it is true that being pregnant after rape is very traumatic, rape victims who have kept their children often say that they wish the people around them had been more supportive.

      Statistics about rape victims and abortion are surprising to many people. There have been two studies done about pregnant rape victims. In each study, 70% of the women chose to keep their babies. This defies the stereotype that all raped women want abortions. According to the two doctors who conducted one study, Sandra Kathleen Mahkorn, M.D. and William V. Dolan, M.D.:

      [This study indicates] that pregnancy need not impede the victim’s resolution of the trauma; rather, with loving support, nonjudgemental attitudes, and empathic communication, healthy emotional and psychological responses are possible despite the added burden or pregnancy. (3)

      The second study, conducted in 2000, revealed that 78% of the 30% of women who had abortions after their rapes felt that they’d made the wrong decision and said that “abortion is not the answer for women who were raped.” In contrast, not a single one of the 70% who had their children regretted it. Some of these women had given up their babies for adoption, and some of them had kept their babies – but the unifying factor among all of them was that none of them regretted giving birth.

      The statistics seem counterintuitive and almost impossible to believe. But they are true. Women who have their babies often have a better psychological outcome than women who do not. One woman who had an abortion after her rape spoke at a pro-life rally in Mississippi. Here is an excerpt from her testimony:

      I was raped a month before I turned 18. And because of that rape I was so fearful and so shameful that I chose abortion, out of fear. My rape was nothing compared to what I did to my child. What my rapist did to me does not compare to what I chose to do to my baby. My rapist didn’t kill me, I’m standing here alive right now. I have three beautiful children at home and a husband who loves me. But I chose to kill my child out of the shame, out of guilt, out of fear because of what a man did to me. Rape is no excuse for abortion. I want to say that. … I’m tired, as a person who was raped and a person who had an abortion, I’m telling you right now, I’m tired of using rape as an excuse. … For years I lived in depression, contemplated suicide, attempted suicide, I spend years drinking to numb the pain, to numb the horrific nightmares, was later diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder, not just because of the rape but because of the abortion. We have got to speak up, it’s not just about the babies, it’s about the moms like me who think they’re making a good decision but they’re not.

      You can see a video of the entire testimony here.

      Another woman who was raped and had her baby speaks out:

      We are so under represented in the media…..but we might have to fight back with brutal honesty to show up the lies. I was raped, suppressed it and a growing belly for 7 months, had a baby girl, and placed her for adoption. If you hear anyone use the stupid line again, “well what if you were raped, then why should you have to carry to term a baby?” Pleas [sic] refer them to me! I’m sick of them persuading people on stuff they don’t even bother asking a real woman that has been through it …Why do they assume automatically women can’t handle it? Two wrongs don’t make a right. I am so mad at the abortion industry, I can’t explain it. It’s just that they would made it so easy for me to walk in the door and kill my daughter that first day I found out I was pregnant (without telling my parents or anyone first) luckily I didn’t thanks to God taking over. My opinion on everything changed full over after just a few days of letting the fact that this is a little life, sink in. But they made it so easy for me to kill my daughter, and since she means the world to me today, this grudge isn’t going to ever go away[.] … (5)

      Another woman was grateful that her rape occurred before Roe versus Wade and she did not have the option of abortion:

      Never, in the years after her birth, did I ever regret giving life to my daughter. However, there have been many times when I have looked back grateful that no state legislature had provided an easy, instant answer of a free abortion for me. I’m grateful because, at that time, I might have bought into the lie that an abortion would fix all my problems. But fortunately that temptation wasn’t there. (6)

      Another woman who was raped and had her baby, identified as Sharon, says:

      There is no doubt in my mind that abortion should be discouraged. Abortion is a terrible way of dealing with a pregnancy resulting from rape, although I suppose it is a way for people to ignore the victim and her needs. (7)

      Rape counselor Joan Kemp agrees:

      After sexual assault there is, for varying lengths of time, a natural revulsion toward anything associated with the rape. That may include the location, or characteristics of the rapist such as clothing, race, mustache, etc. It is normal for this feeling to attach to the unborn child conceived in rape. However, these feelings normally fade with time. When this does not happen spontaneously, counseling with someone qualified to treat rape victims is highly effective. Rape victims I have worked with were quite aware and distressed by the inappropriateness of these feelings. They would not, for instance, have welcomed anyone telling them that men of their attacker’s race are natural criminals. Nor do women welcome being told that their children conceived in rape are unworthy of life, genetically prone to crime, and bound to feel unwanted and bitter. A person in crisis is seeking positive solutions, not a counsel of despair. (8)

      Lee Ezell, author of the book The Missing Piece (Servant Publishing) was raped and became pregnant. She describes meeting her daughter, whom she gave up for adoption:

      We met for the first time just a month after our first phone conversation. There are no words to describe my exact feelings as Julie walked into my hotel room.

      Here was the child whose memory I’d hidden in my heart for so many years, the child who has given me my first grandchildren[.] …

      She embraced me. We cried. Bob [her husband] said with all the love in the world in his voice: “Thank you for not aborting Julie. What would my life be like without her?”

      Finding my daughter has enriched my life beyond measure. The couple, who adopted her, Eileen and Harold Anderson, are beautiful people.

      Julie, Eileen and I have been speaking to various groups about what happened to us. I guess our message is that just as bad things can happen to good people, so can something beautiful come from a wicked act. Julie is living proof of it. (9)

      A woman who was raped and had a child wrote a letter to the editor:

      Consider my beautiful daughter, Jessica. She is eight months old, has no teeth but a full head of hair and seems to be developing a fondness for Apple juice. She is loved by me, her grandparents, her uncle and her two sisters more than words can say.

      She is also a child conceived during a rape.

      I was raped in 1992. I did my civic duty and reported the rape. I worked with the assistant district attorney to prosecute my assailant. He was eventually pronounced “not guilty” because date rape is difficult to prove.

      When I discovered I was pregnant from the assault, I was horrified. I debated long and hard over what choice I should make.
      Common sense would dictate that an abortion was the answer, right? Wrong. No matter how hideous my child’s conception had been (and rape is a degrading, demoralizing act that alters one’s whole life), I knew that there was a life growing inside me. I chose to accept this child is being my baby – not the rapist’s. My friends and family supported me 100%, but the choice was mine to make and I know I made the right one.

      All children are gifts from God. It makes no difference how they are conceived.

      I feared I would see my rapist’s face every time I looked at my child – but I don’t. I see a beautiful, happy, little girl who wasn’t planned and wasn’t the result of an act of love – but nonetheless is loved very, very much. (10)

      The woman who gave this testimony is not the only person who fell in love with a child conceived by rape. Rebekah Berg, who was raped and chose to give life to her son, told the following story in Courageous, the new book by Kristin Hawkins which profiles pro-life young pro-life activists from around the country.

      My son is the product of rape, and he is the exception to the rule, as they say. Multitudes of women in my situation have had abortions, giving different reasons for their choice. But that child is still a child, no matter how he or she was conceived. I certainly did not choose to be raped and definitely did not choose to become pregnant. No more did my child ask to be conceived. I had no right to take his life because of the horrible situation that happened to me.

      The thought that he would bear the same genes of my rapist was one of the questions that continue to linger at my soul during my pregnancy. Was I going to birth another rapist? Was I doing more harm than good with giving him life? My own son’s gentle spirit and thoughtfulness of others confirms that there is not a “rapist gene.” When I look into my son’s eyes, I only have love and have only loved him since he was laid on my chest after birthing him. (11)

      None of these women who chose to have their children after rape would say that their decision was easy. The trauma of being raped can haunt the victim for the rest of her life. But adding abortion to that trauma often exacerbates the situation.

      These women, and thousands of others, have discovered that giving birth to their babies allowed them to rise above the rape, to commit a truly selfless act, and to heal. It is most of all important for rape victims to have the support of those around them, whether they are pregnant or not. In cases where they are pregnant, we should not give them “the counsel of despair.” Rather, we should encourage them to make a choice that both they and their baby can live with. We should remember that when we oppose abortion in the case of rape victims, we are not just saving babies – we’re helping women as well.

      David C. Reardon, Julie Makimaa, and Amy Sobie. “Victims and Victors: Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting From Sexual Assault” Springfield, IL: Acorn Books 2000) p 46
      Ibid.
      Sandra Kathleen Mahkorn, M.D. and William V. Dolan, M.D. “Sexual Assault and Pregnancy” in Thomas Hulgers, Dennis Horan and David Mall, “New Perspectives on Human Abortion” (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1981) 194
      David C. Reardon, et al. “Victims and Victors: Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting From Sexual Assault”
      Message to Pro-Life Blogs February 8, 2009 http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2009/02/abortion_after.php
      David C. Reardon, et al. “Victims and Victors: Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting From Sexual Assault” 94
      David C. Reardon, et al. “Victims and Victors: Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting From Sexual Assault” 89
      Joan Kemp “Abortion: The Second Rape” SisterLife, Winter 1990 Feminists for Life of America, 811 E. 47th St. Kansas City, MO 64100
      Lee Ezell “I Was Raped” Lovematters.com advertising supplement, Vol. 18, 2009
      Tamara L Roleff. Abortion: Opposing Viewpoints (San Diego, Greenhaven Press, 1997) 137-138
      Kristin Hawkins. Courageous: Students Abolishing Abortion in This Lifetime (Students for Life of America, 2012) 16

      source

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    • Darth
      That you take the worst case scenarios and use them as an argument to justify abortion in general indicates that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel on this one, and that you have no better argument.

      Killing Children should never be the initial solution to any problems.

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    • These are COMMON scenarios, faced by women on a recurring basis, every single day, all around the world, yet because a woman has less value than a foetus, these tend to get ignored.

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    • women who are raped reject your horrific final solution: murder.

      You have some things in common with the Nazis.

      See article above.

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    • Nice red herring. You think that applies to every woman? You think that has anything to do with a woman’s right to determine her own future? The article merely reinforces the importance of choice – something you would apparently deny to every woman, even in cases of rape, which is a blatant display of how little you value women – it’s frankly evil.

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    • “But what if ”
      Oh man! There’s “what if” for each equation and rule. We are talking here about the idea itself.

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    • Darth,
      If your wife had accused you of rape or coercion, (either guilty or even if you knew you were innocent) or if the contraceptive failed, and/or she did not want children…..would you have agreed to aborting your own (Surely beautiful and beloved) children?

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    • My wife would have the final say. I do not impose my will upon her, for I respect her.

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    • The “What if” game, signifies a lack of substance in the argument.

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    • Your lack of response noted.

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    • Darth,
      “My wife would have the final say. I do not impose my will upon her, for I respect her.”

      Nothing to say of respect for your unborn children? Seems like a harsh thing for your children to hear.

      I think it is easy for you to make “what if” scenarios, talking about pro-Choice and encouraging others to have abortions……AFTER you have already had your own children.

      Talk is cheap.

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    • False dichotomy again. I don’t ‘encourage’ abortions. I maintain that women should have the choice, especially in cases where they have been coerced or raped. There are parts of the world where women are denied this and they suffer as a result – but the suffering of fully grown women is apparently secondary to the life of a foetus. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/08/draconian-abortion-laws-kill-women-and-girls-1/

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    • If those are your children, then abortion could be a good solution.

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    • What is that supposed to even mean?

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    • It means “what if” those were your children.

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    • The final choice would belong to my wife. She is the one who would face the pain and stress of pregnancy and childbirth. She is the one who would potentially be risking her life to give birth. Would it be remotely fair of me to impose my will upon her?

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    • Darth,
      You continue to make the plea to “what if the worst case scenario” and as I understand your position you believe that the law should allow for abortion in cases of rape, incest, a foetus with a fatal impairment or when a woman or girl’s life is in danger.

      However, I think the concern among Pro-lifers (including most Muslims and Christians) is that if such a law is enacted, it may be abused, or actually even encourage abortions among those who do not really have a valid need other than, “she never wanted kids,” or that she didn’t want to “sacrifice her ambitions and plans” or some other unworthy reason.

      Islam is a very intellectual religion that is not against Medical science. I believe that some Islamic scholars have ruled, there would be some allowance for abortion in specific instances where the physical health of the woman is directly threatened. The woman is the source of life, and her life takes precedence over the unborn fetus only in such a case.

      Some Muslim scholars have also ruled that abortion can be allowed in cases where a grossly untreatable and severely extreme physical/mental deformity may adversely impact the quality of the child’s life. But there may be some different scholarly opinions on this.

      This issue of Rape, is a controversial issue. Some Muslim scholars have made allowances for abortion in the case of rape, but I think most are generally against it, since the child is still innocent and deserves the chance at life.

      In regard to failed contraceptives, my own personal opinion is that if one is adult enough to engage in the sexual act, then one must accept the responsibilities that come with such an act. if the contraceptive device fails, it does not provide an excuse not an excuse to kill an innocent unborn child. I think must reasonable people would agree with that position.

      It seems to me that your wish is to allow Abortion in any instance, for any reason, if a woman so chooses.

      While some Muslims may make some allowances in certain well defined instances, most will never fully agree with your radical position. I think the same could be said of most religious Christians as well.

      I think you may have to meet us somewhere in the middle of the road on this one. (and probably closer to our side of the street! 🙂 )

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    • I believe in the right to choose. It’s something that many women, all around the world, are denied, every single day, in a variety of ways and for a variety of reasons. Society has evolved to a point where a woman’s worth is seen as less than a man’s, a woman’s body merely a means to an end, be it as a vehicle for children or sexual pleasure. I don’t think anyone here has asked ‘what would a woman think’, which is why I would implore all of you to actually speak to women about this issue.

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    • There is no ‘right’ to chose.

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    • In some parts of the world there isn’t, and in those parts of the world women die.

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    • I see you are merrily equating my views to those of Nazis. Since you are degenerating into increasingly hostile and petty behaviour, I wonder if you would be prepared to make this formal? There are several debate sites that could host a structured discussion – a written version of what you do at Speakers Corner?

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    • darthtimo

      Why do you get so rude when faced with your own debate style? Why is it acceptable for you to behave in this manner, yet no one else?

      Because he is a muslim and you are a lowly kuffar. You have no rights to equality in anything with muslims. That is the essence of sharia.

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    • I will be honest Kev, I am not going to get into that sort of discussion with you. I have had similar conversations with Christians as well.

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    • “But what if the woman never wanted kids, and through […] failed contraceptives, ends up pregnant?”

      So you want to kill the baby because contraceptives are not fail-safe? Amazing.

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    • There is a Nazi like logic to feminism’s justification of child killing. Sick.

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    • The worst I heard from those rationalising it is that the baby is a parasite and non-human.

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    • yep like the Nazis spoke of the Jews. A chilling parallel.

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    • False dichotomy again. This is a recurring theme. The ‘baby’ is in the majority of cases of abortion an undeveloped foetus that is completely dependent upon the mother’s body and would not be viable outside the womb. Couples who don’t want children and take every possible measure to avoid pregnancy have shown common sense and should not then be forced to proceed down a bath they didn’t choose.

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    • “Couples who don’t want children and take every possible measure to avoid pregnancy have shown common sense and should not then be forced to proceed down a bath they didn’t choose.”

      Ok, so the couple didn’t choose to have sexual intercourse in which the very purpose of the physiological mechanisms involved is to achieve reproduction, and they also didn’t choose to use contraceptive methods they know are not fail-safe.
      Who do you suspect it was that made any semblance of choice in this whole business?

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    • Sexual intercourse is also an expression of intimacy and love. I don’t understand the rest of your post, sorry.

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    • You claim the couple didn’t make that choice. Who do you think did?

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    • The couple made a choice to have sex and made a choice to take measures to prevent pregnancy. It’s reasonable to expect contraceptives to work – most are 99% successful.

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    • Ok so it is the couple!
      And no, most conctraceptive methods are not 99% successful. Most are not that successful in just one year of use: https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/pdf/family-planning-methods-2014.pdf

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    • darthtimon

      “I will be honest Kev, I am not going to get into that sort of discussion with you. I have had similar conversations with Christians as well.”

      Fair enough. You asked a question, I answered it. Implicit inequality between the muslim and the non-believer is at the root of sharia and the combative uncompromising style of the muslims on this blog. Fact.

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    • Typical idiocy…

      Let’s pick the 0.01% extreme of cases to justify infanticide and ignore the tsunami wave about to crash down on us of all from the out of wedlock and promiscuous sex due to lack of morals, alcohol or typically both…

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    • You have evidence to support your claim?

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    • What, that your a massive imbecile? Yeah plenty just read your own posts, your garbage is littered all over this place.

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    • I assume from your belligerence that you are not interested in rational discussion?

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    • Not with an irrational cretin like you no.

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    • Lol, says the one being an irrational cretin.

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    • “Lol” said the irrational cretin .

      Corrected for you. Your welcome .

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    • Why correct a statement that was already correct? Are you prepared to actually have a discussion, or is stupidity your only recourse?

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    • Kev,
      Here is a fact for you:
      My above comment on the views of Islamic scholarship on the subject of Abortion show a willingness on the part of Muslims to come to a compromise on the issue, while still taking a stand that is generally on the side of pro-life.

      Your single minded effort to blame Islam for every ill in the world is both ignorant and boring. Get a life.

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    • Um, I don’t recall blaming Islam for the world’s ills – in fact, in other parts of the world wide Web I’ve defended Islam from people who argue it permits terrorism.

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    • Apologies, I thought this post was aimed at me.

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    • Most of darthtimon’s comments seem to be regurgitated feminist talking points, there is very little independent thinking from his well indoctrinated mind on the subject.

      He is a nice guy when talking about Nintendo, coffee and pastry, but don’t poke him about feminist ideology!! 🙂

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    • The irony is palatable in your post. What independent thinking are you showing, or is it all based on religious dogma?

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    • Darth,
      I appreciate your efforts at defending Islam on certain occasions. I have done the same for Christianity, and even on certain feminist points. But I am critical of certain aspects of militaristic feminist eugenics and man hate.

      I don’t limit myself to religious dogma, I have tried to meet you in the middle, and even showed some evidence from Islamic scholars who do the same, but you seem to be stubbornly stuck on your side of the issue.

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    • I am trying, believe it or not, to understand where you (and Paul, and everyone else) is coming from. This is a highly emotive subject, no matter what side you take. In the end, my position is, and always come back to, choice. If your partner chose not to get an abortion, if it goes against her beliefs and values, then she should not be forced to have one. That’s something I have no issue with whatsoever. Unfortunately, (and not only in matters regarding abortion but across other aspects of their own bodies and lives) women are often denied any choice. Their lives become secondary to other people’s wishes. This cuts across religion, race, politics and national borders. Sadly, women continue to be seen – and treated – as second-class citizens the world over, and I can’t abide that.

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    • Darth,
      To be honest, maybe your heart is in the right place, in that you are sincerely concerned about women. Islam is concerned about the welfare of women as well. As a Muslim I too am concerned about the welfare of women, and I believe that women should be treated fairly and justly, and so should an innocent new born be treated fairly and justly.

      However, I think that, in regard to abortion, you have entrenched yourself in a radical far left position without taking into account the other side of the issue. You also seem to make a jump in logic by conflating the Pro-life position with women being treated as second class citizens, when one does not necessarily entail the other. You don’t seem to take into account that many women prefer to abide by their traditional female roles, and that they have choices even within those roles, and that in doing so do not see themselves as second class citizens regardless of what some western secularist cultural supremacists may think.

      There are many women who are Pro-Life yet you do not regularly speak out on their behalf, which possibly indicates that your real concern is not absolutely about women and their rights, but rather about your own personal political opinion and position in regard to supporting abortion.

      As long as you are stuck in the far left radical liberalist feminist position, you will never be able to reach a compromise with those on the right of the issue in order to institute changes which will actually help those who need it most.

      Liked by 2 people

    • I dare say we are at an impasse, and clearly we approaching this from very different positions. As I have already mentioned, I favour a woman’s right to choose, and therefore if a woman chooses to be ‘pro-life’ then that is her decision. If she chooses a life based on traditional ideals, that is her decision. This doesn’t change the ongoing problem of many women around the world failing to have any choice. The reasons for this may vary; the result is the same.

      When it comes to compromise, the problem I have tended to find is that the pro-life side doesn’t want to. I appreciate what you mentioned about occasions within Islam where abortion may be permitted, but on the flip side of that, we have Paul, comparing me to Nazis and shutting down dialogue through increasing belligerence. I’ve encountered this before, via a deeply conservative Christian site, who suggested women should simply ‘get over it’ if they were raped and fell pregnant. In America, the conservative religious right will not compromise on this or many issues.

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    • Darth,
      I meant “so should an innocent UNBORN be treated fairly and justly.”

      Also keep in mind that (as far as I am aware) there is no Muslim-majority country that completely bans abortion. So contrary to Kev’s thinking, Islam is not really the problem here, and although as a religion is traditionally pro-life, it has already come to a compromise on the issue in many instances.

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    • darth,
      If many Muslim scholars can reach a position of compromise on the issue of abortion, then why can’t you meet us half way??

      If you cannot reach a compromise, then you must ask yourself: “who is truly the radical fundamentalist on this issue?”

      No offense meant, I am just trying to challenge your thinking a little.

      Like

    • I appreciate that, and hence my remarks about supporting choice. I will never to you, or anyone else, ‘reject your faith’. I won’t dictate to you how to live your life. However, for many women around the world, these aren’t choices they are given, and this goes far beyond the abortion debate.

      Like

    • darth,
      “I will never to you, or anyone else, ‘reject your faith’. I won’t dictate to you how to live your life.” Thank you, I appreciate that sentiment. My Qur’an teaches the same ideal, “to you be your religion (way) and to me be my religion (way) Quran 109:6; There is no compulsion in religion ~ Quran 2:256.

      However, Islam also teaches us to save the life of an innocent unborn child, as it is not for us to assume the place of Allah in deciding in the matter of life and death.

      Now having said that, I will also add that because in the modern reality the issue is controversial, and as you said highly emotive, I think that compromise is the only way forward. The pro-life position should be encouraged and supported, however, in light of the concerns from your side, allowances should be made only in specific circumstances where health and safety are concerned, or in certain other limited circumstances as I have mentioned in my above comments (please see above). While Islam promotes a Pro-life position, the Muslim position is still less hardline than conservative Christians.

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  4. Okay, I’ve been up and down the list, trying to understand. I haven’t been here before, so I’d just like to lay down a general perspective–from me, a woman without kids.

    I’ve seen the “life is tough, get over it” argument before on women getting pregnant when they don’t want to be. Easy to say if you’re a man; your body isn’t the host. A man won’t endure the incredible stresses put on the body, the hormonal changes and weight gain, restrictions to other responsibilities (such as jobs, exercise, even other children at times). A woman will. Easy for a man to say that, they can dump their seed and don’t have to stick around for the rest–the woman will.

    And yes, some women who’ve been through rape will choose to not take Plan B or get an abortion (and I’m sure some of it is religious pressure, but others have a very rigid stance on what abortion is and what it means). If the woman who has been raped doesn’t want to abort, then that’s her business and right. If the woman does, that’s her business as well.

    I’ve had family comment that if a woman wants an abortion, the first one’s free, but the next time they get their tubes tied. Seriously? How many times do men think women want abortions? Once is enough for most…in cases of more than one, it’s very likely because of social taboos surrounding even TALKING about birth control and ignorance of methods. I hate how SOME who are against abortion seem to think women enjoy the hell out of them and just can’t wait to go back to the doctor for another one. Ugh.

    Some arguments stray just this side of the idea that because a woman is biologically built to carry a child, then any time she becomes pregnant she must always produce. This is what results in laws where women can be jailed (usually Latin American countries) for having a miscarriage. Well, can she prove it was complications, or was it a hidden way to attempt an abortion? They don’t know, so the woman’s jailed when she’s already traumatized.

    There are a million more words I could write on the subject, but won’t. But two things make the most sense to me to stop abortion if that’s what you’re going for:

    1. Comprehensive sexual education–let youth (and even many adults) know the truth about sex beyond taboos, rumors, and the godforsaken internet (because horny teens learning about sex through porn sites is REALLY helpful, right?). Give them all the info they need for informed decisions and so they can ask their parents the right info. I’m tired of the old argument that kids will have sex all willy-nilly if they learn the ins and outs. Educate them and teach them respect for their own bodies (and other people’s) and get rid of the ignorance. AND:

    2. Access to birth control (honest to God access, not lip-service).–because of the contradictory beliefs in “when life actually happens,” and taboos against sex, birth control is still subject to ignorance and inaccessible. Make birth control free or VERY affordable and you WON’T NEED abortion–makes sense to me, because you can’t have it both ways. If you don’t want abortion (except in cases of rape or incest–if the woman chooses), then make birth control and comprehensive sex ed widely available.

    As far as “rape or incest” goes…well, there are a million more words to say on how to stop that…I’ll just boil it down to KNOCK IT THE HELL OFF!

    Liked by 1 person

    • CI,
      Comprehensive sexual education sounds like a good solution, but studies have shown that it actually increases sexual activity in young adults. Comp. Sex. Ed. Without moral teaching creates just as many problems as it claims to solve. Why don’t western countries simply outlaw pornography, if that is where kids are learning about sex? Is it because, rather than learning from religious sources, that is where they WANT kids to learn about it? The whole western system is not conducive to living a moral life, which results in unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

      Access to Birth Control is really just abortion by other means, a great Malthusian solution, but not preferred by people of faith and religion. This also actually increases sexual activity in irresponsible young adults. What is the true goal here? Is it to stop unwanted childbirth, or to contribute the immorality of society, or both?

      I think the disconnect is between those with secularist attitudes vs. those with traditionalist religious attitudes. It is the immoral, irreligious, ungodly, irresponsible, selfish society that westerners have created for themselves, and now want to export to the world, that is the real problem. When you throw out more than 5000 years of human knowledge, real world experience, and tradition, things will spin out of control, and go downhill very quickly, and that is what seems to have happened here.

      I agree that a key solution is EDUCATION, but the best solution is a sound and religious upbringing which includes teaching and educating on moral rationale and responsibilities in regard to sexual activity and childbirth. We should teach about the personal responsibilities that one has to the unborn fetus and not just to one’s own self. Freedom of choice is well and good, until it crosses the line and harms another living being.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Well thought out, I’ll give you that.

      But when push comes to shove, women are incubators for men to fondle and put their seed in when they want sex. I mean, that’s what this is deep down, right?: a cluster of cells is of more worth than a woman.

      When religious and moralistic doctrines make men and women equitable instead of suborning one below the other, then I’m good to listen. I’m tired of “men have their role, women have theirs” because it means men can do what they want and women just have to deal with it. Like it or not, men and women need each other to keep the human race going, but one doesn’t have to rule over the other. We can pick whatever studies we want to support our views on the rate of sexually-active youth–you’ll have some, I’ll have a few, and we’ll just yell at each other. I’m not interested in doing that. Teenagers want sex and a little “promise ring” or “virginity ceremony” won’t change that–if anything it’ll make the kids so scared to ask they experiment and get hurt or hurt others. I don’t care if more young people are having sex–as long as they’re educated about it and you don’t shame a woman for having it (but praise the man for getting laid–seriously, why must women be the paragons of virtue in these cases?). And sexually-educated young people don’t get pregnant as easily because they’re aware of how to stop it, and therefore, abortion is unnecessary. Also, marriage has changed. Thankfully, people can marry for love instead of just doing what their parents want so the families can divvy the spoils (and to heck with if the married couple even like each other–as long as they have babies). We’re past that time in many parts of the world–thank goodness. Choice is a beautiful thing, but options must be there.

      Back to topic: we were talking about abortion–abortion’s what happens when there’s a lack of choice. When there is nowhere else to turn. Do you think a woman will get an abortion if she has knowledge and access to birth control? No. And by the way, there are plenty of married couples who have enough kids and don’t want more–are they never supposed to be given the option to have birth control? The childbearing age is stretching out–does that mean a woman’s supposed to spend 30+ years having kids just because her body’s good for it and she and her husband love each other? The older a woman gets, the more complications there are. With choices, and access to choices, abortion isn’t needed. But as long as women are seen as incubators instead of human beings, this won’t change.

      Liked by 1 person

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  1. Ladies, it’s not your Body…  – Coalition of the Brave

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