‘As in all the churches of the saints, 34 women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?
37 Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38 Anyone who does not recognize this is not to be recognized.‘
Categories: Bible, Christianity
Cue the off-topic attacks on Islam..
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The context is judging prophecy and women not judging men. 1 Corinthians 11 says women do speak in church. It would help if you provided some context.
I did provide context by linking it to the whole chapter.
You are incorrect to limit the prohibition to women prophesying & women not judging men.
Paul generalises his ban:
“women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.”
You reject this teaching it seems.
There is much here that contradicts the teaching of 1 Corinthians 11. Many scholars (including conservative ones such as C.K. Barrett in his commentary) think that the passage in 1 Cor 14 has been inserted by a later unknown scribe. Yet it is retained in all modern Bibles.
The chapter you cited says that a man is in charge of woman and that she is made in his (mans) image. It says nothing of church but of prayer and prophecying in general. However the meaning of chapter 11 is unclear as scholars have argued whether or not St Paul was teaching the idea himself or relaying it and subsequently refuting it. Therefore not the best proof text to use.
1 Corinthians 14 tells us that women are not allowed to speak in church and there is no reference to a specific event being addressed so we can only speculate on why he chooses to write about it, this, I believe is a good reason to see it as a general command especially considering he declares it as the word of God and that whoever does not recognize this is subsequently not be recognized themselves.
By contrast, Luke repeatedly places women alongside men among Jesus’ disciples and among the earliest of those to become Christians after his resurrection. The NT does not seem to have an altogether consistent view of women.
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there are many other passages in the bible that require the subordination of women to men assigning them an inferior status.
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When women in Islam had their rights, Christians were still subjugating their women and arguing whether or not they had souls.
And the suffering of Christian women continues unto this day:
These poor Christian women are kept in bondage, married to their “Superior” Christian husbands and forced to submit to his every desire. They suffer torture, beatings, and all forms of abuse. In accordance with the Bible, these faithful Christian women are forced to keep silent…….but their eyes speak of their immense suffering.
As good Muslims it is imperative that we express our LOVE for these poor Christian women by teaching them that their religion is false, while offering them liberation through the light of Islam. We must create a social justice movement to liberate these poor subjugated, oppressed Christian women from their abusive overbearing Christian husbands who can’t control their own sexual desires, and who demand obedience and silence from their poor oppressed wives.
Please have a heart and give to the Islamic fund for liberating oppressed and subjugated Christian Women. 🙂
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I call on all good Muslims to help liberate these poor oppressed and subjugated Christian women from the shackles of Christianity, while offering them the light of the Qur’an and the respect and dignity that comes with Islam. 🙂
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“We must create a social justice movement”
Good luck. You are a Muslim remember. While us kaffir are the worst of creatures according to your holy book. But you are more a liberal westerner than muslim
“While us kaffir are the worst of creatures according to your holy book”
David’s students cannot be stupid more than this!
What did your prince of peace label those who don’t believe in him? I guess (the sons of Satan) are the best creatures according to you and the circus man, aren’t they ?
Prepare your other cheek to be slapped heavily!
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Like I said: ‘Cue the off-topic attacks on Islam..’
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Indeed, (regardless of what people like Paulus may think or say) Islam was born as a Social Justice Movement.
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I wonder if this comment will be allowed through, but let’s try anyway.
There is evidence that both Christianity and Islam have reserved specific roles and expectations for both men and women in society (I haven’t looked into Judaism as yet, it would be fascinating to see if all of the ‘big three’ share this trait). Some of this evidence is down to interpretation, but the historical idea that women are somehow inferior to men, and to be denied certain roles, has its roots in Biblical texts such as the ones posted earlier, and also Quranic verses:
Quran (4:34) – “Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.”
Quran (2:223) – “Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will
Sahih Bukhari (48:826) – one interpretation is that women are less intelligent than men.
And please note that I am not trying to say this is typical of either Islam or Christianity – merely that the door is left open for the interpretation – in both religions – that women are somehow inferior to men.
There are more verses in the Hindu scriptures that deal with subjugation of women then all of the verses in Judaism, Christianity and Islam put together…….Why do you choose to target the Abrahamic faith alone? And why did you choose only to highlight verses from the Qur’an?
Here are some verses from the Law of Manu, and that is just one of many collections of Hindu Scripture.
These 33 Shocking Verses From Manusmriti About Women Will Infuriate You:
I do not mean to pick on Hindu culture or Hinduism here. Only to show that many traditional religions contain such content, not just Islam etc. So I think the roots of such thinking go deeper than just the Abrahamic faith, and it is founded in the comprehensive accumulated experience and knowledge of humankind over the millennia.
Also according to Islam women are not considered “inferior” that is really just you projecting your own bias and misunderstandings.
I don’t limit my focus to the Abrahamic religions, but they are the three biggest religions and carry a great deal of influence, socially and politically.
Nor am I saying that regarding women as inferior in Islam is what I think. I merely point out that there is room to interpret certain texts as suggesting such.
Sure there is room to interpret all kinds of things, and there are many examples of misinterpretations both intentional and unintentional in all scriptures. But in regard to Islam specifically I think one has to look at the original intent of the passage in question, Although some verses may never fully meet with approval from hard core feminist thought, there are still interpretations which are more acceptable than others. Most Muslim men that I know, do not view women as being inferior or less intelligent….personally my (Muslim) wife is more highly educated than I am, and I do not see her as being inferior. But we both agree on certain gender roles, that are really minor in life and more ceremonious than anything.
Modernist feminists project their anachronistic thinking back in time onto people in a different time and place, and then make rash judgments without taking into account the historical development, consensus, purpose, meaning and intent of such issues that they scornfully question. Such “progressive” thought is really regressive and returns to a dark and distant paganistic past, before the advent of the Abrahamic faith, and world consensus on gender roles.
Importantly, and thankfully we don’t have to measure God’s word against the trending scrutiny of some radical feminists. No one is forcing such feminists to be Muslim, any more than forcing them to be being religious at all. They can accept it or reject such beliefs, and there is no need to cry and scream about it. But it is hypocritical of them to criticize the socio- religious beliefs of others, especially when they react so violently to any criticism of their own feminist beliefs.
I disagree with your assessment of feminism, though I do appreciate the acknowledgement of yours that it is not all feminists or types of feminism that offer up such viewpoints. There are other posters here who take altogether too simplistic views of feminism, which, as with religion, is more nuanced and complex than it is given credit for.
Nevertheless, I think there has been a role played by religion – or certain interpretations of religion – that has ensured men occupy positions of political and economic power – and women don’t. It has either created or reinforced certain stereotypes about men and women. Even today, women can still be easily objectified and yet held responsible for when this happens (the Bill O’Reilly furore is a good example of this, he harassed women yet to some, the women are to blame – https://coalitionofthebrave.wordpress.com/2017/04/30/confronting-sexism-head-on/ ).
Are there elements of feminism that take their objections to these characterisations of women a step too far? Absolutely. I would ask that you don’t judge the entire movement because of them, any more than you would want people judging Islam because of IS.
I understand there are nuanced positions within feminism, and I even agree with some of the points made by some moderate forms of feminism. But I don’t agree with radicalism from anyone, especially when they want to attack and blame religion for all the ills and problems.
Is it religious interpretations that has ensured men occupy positions of political and economic power, or is it just that men and women excel at different things, or have different talents, and responsibilities and/or Goals in life.
As for Bill, “O Really?” he is a bigoted piece of trash, and I would not even try to defend his disgusting behavior and harassment of women. However, I do not think that traditional gender roles equates with stereotype and objectification which I strongly disagree with as well.
What I don’t understand is why feminists seem to want to tear down traditional religion, society, establish and enforce an immoral humanistic society, even redefining gender itself, and encouraging transsexualism, homosexuality, etc. in order to achieve their end goals of absolute equality. Such Radical though will never be agreeable to everyone involved, even many women reject this kind of thinking. Is there really a need for such a clash between men and women, and between traditional religious society and so called progressives, and does it really serve the betterment of society as a whole? Is such thinking really about women, or the planned reconstruction of society which is more open to sinful practices, immorality and the degradation of the human soul?
Instead of alienating Men in general, along with both men and women of religion and making enemies of them, why not work WITH them to achieve a more perfect understanding and implementation of traditional roles and equality within the boundaries set by God, and which have been the established norm for so long? I think Islam offers the best solution to empowering women while at the same time defending traditional roles, and religious values.
I will take your advice and not “judge the entire movement because of them, any more than you would want people judging Islam because of IS.” I try not to do that anyway regardless.