How is that beautiful and not child abuse?

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Categories: Christianity, God

82 replies

  1. Nice one Br Paul.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. The Christian God is nothing more than a cosmic “whipping boy.” When the guilty children misbehave and commit sin, the “perfect” innocent child is punished.” – so much for divine justice.

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    • the christian god wants you to feel guilty because he transferred sins and poured them on himself.

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    • an engine needs coolant , the father needs blood.

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    • ‘The Christian God is nothing more than a cosmic “whipping boy.” ‘

      you have ken temple like christians who see children as criminals and selfish.

      i quote this :

      . The guilty can become hopeless, feeling he may never be right with God, as those in Ezekiel. The Church compounds this guilt by telling its adherents that they are so bad that God could never forgive them. Not only that, an innocent man needed to be terribly shamed, beaten, and murdered on their behalf. This can create in incredibly over-powering guilt in people, creating in them the sense that they are worthless.

      All this leads to the mistake of putting their trust in a man rather than in HaShem. Because they have been told that HaShem could never tolerate them, He feels forever far away. Moreover, He is an object of fear, because He would destroy them. Jesus on the other hand, rather than wanting to destroy them, was willing to suffer and die for them. His love appears to the Christian to be so much greater than the love of God. God was willing to send someone else to die. Jesus was willing to actually do the dying.
      And so his trust and affection is given to a man.

      All the while, he does not know that HaShem did not need someone to die for Him. He does not know that HaShem loves him enough to forgive him if he will but make amends and return to HaShem. He does not know that his trust in a man is misplaced, but trust in HaShem can never be misplaced. HaShem does not wish his destruction. Nor is HaShem powerless to forgive those that have violated His Torah.

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    • Joel,
      Before you start crying, could you tell us what the word (begotten) means ?

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  3. Come on Williams! Have you forgotten that God is unquestionable and could order anything however stupid that thing looks?! We (by default) have no right to blame God for ordering genocides, rapes, child abuse etc.

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  4. The problem is that they are happy to believe in such a thing !

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    • Indeed! There is this EXTREMELY DANGEROUS outer beauty to it.
      You know. ‘God would do such a thing… FOR US.’
      It just sounds beautiful, God doing such a sacrifice but on the basis it’s just pure SHIRK.

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  5. The problem is that mohammed was ignorant of christian theology – hence his followers make ignorant claims like the title of this article. Mohammed stupidly believed that jesus was god’s offspring – that’s not christian belief. We don’t believe that god took a consort from amongst his own kind and had sex with them.

    Why was mohammed and his god so wrong about christian theology?

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    • Joel,
      Instead of addressing the subject of the post, you prefer to deflect by attacking Islam? Typical.

      The real question for you is why did Christians get the religion of Jesus so wrong? Why do Christians still preach a theology that Jesus himself never preached?

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    • you do have members of the trinity making love to each other and what I can tell you is that even pagans had a concept of spiritual copulation amongst their gods.

      I can also tell you that the father raped jesus with a divine raping.

      did jesus have experiential knowledge of homosexuality, adultery, fornication, or was jesus free from guilt while on the cross? Some evangelicals believe he had full experiential knowledge of crimes like these and was JUSTLY punished, but if not , then the father is pouring these crimes on jesus, which would imply divine rape . How do you pour the act of forcefully raping a woman on jesus krist? ANSWER: the father in trinity RAPED jesus with these crimes in a loving way.
      So in a sense jesus is divinely raped when all these crimes are forcefully inserted into him by the father. I note the Christian language “jesus absorved”
      “jesus bore”

      and then you tell people each person loves the other, so the father in a loving way mounted on jesus a mounting Jesus did not experience before.

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    • “that jesus was god’s offspring”
      Are you saying that you don’t believe that Jesus is the (begotten) son of God?

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    • There is so much doublespeak in Christianity, that Christians don’t really know WHAT to believe. This is especially found to be true, when one questions one Christian after another, and finds that none of them have the same views even on core doctrines. While at the same time Muslims have a very consistent understanding and belief on core Islamic doctrines.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Ibn Issam

      I did address the subject of the post. Mohammed and allah literally believed that christian theology says that YHWH had relations with a woman to produce a son. It is Islam that has the religion of Jesus so wrong.

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    • abdullah

      “Are you saying that you don’t believe that Jesus is the (begotten) son of God?”

      Only in the sense that Jesus is divine – not in the sense that mohammed and allah got so hopelessly wrong.

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    • Joel,
      Christianity did get the religion of Jesus wrong, as he never preached Trinity, curse of original sin, faith based redemption by the cross, or claimed deity for himself.

      You make accusations against Islam, and yet it is not the Qur’an that calls Jesus “the only begotten son” but rather the Bible and Christianity. What are we to make of that? It seems that it is your own faith that intimates that God had sexual relations with a woman to produce a son.

      As for the birth of Jesus (as) in the Qur’an you are wrong…….there is no mention of sexual relations between God and a woman:

      19:19 He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger (Archangel Gabriel) from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.”

      19:20 She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”

      19:21 He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’: It is a matter (so) decreed.”

      19:22 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

      19:92 For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

      21:91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

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    • Divine god’s offspring then ?

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    • doublespeak.

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    • “Only in the sense that Jesus is divine – not in the sense that mohammed and allah got so hopelessly wrong.”

      your god was eternally reproducing jesus via his consort called wisdom.

      this is not “hopelessly wrong” divine reproduction has existed in jewish and christian thought.

      In Greek circles there were religions that maintained that Sophia was indeed a divine being. She (the word Sophia in Greek is feminine, so the divine being is always imagined as female) is especially prominent in forms of Gnosticism. But Sophia also came to be thought of as a (subservient) divine being in Jewish circles as well. Speculation on Sophia begins with the Hebrew Bible, especially Proverbs 8. Read it and you’ll see: “Wisdom” is said to have been with God in the beginning when he created all things, and to have participated with God in the creation (since he made all things using his wisdom). In fact, she is said to be the master creator herself through whom God created and even God’s consort in the beginning. In some Jewish circles Sophia, then, came to be thought of as not simply something people have, but as a divine hypostasis that is in the world. This view probably came to influence the Gospel of John, for whom a male hypostasis – the Logos (or “Word”) – was with God in the beginning, was himself God, yet was distinct from God, and was the one through whom all things were made (see John 1:1-3).

      http://ehrmanblog.org/readers-weekly-mailbag-january-2-2016/

      reproduction between gods does not need to involve flesh parts even though their is a member in trinity currently “fully human”

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    • “It seems that it is your own faith that intimates that God had sexual relations with a woman to produce a son.”

      yes the sophia or the female consort of god in eternal relationship reproducing the son again and again in love triangle.

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    • Joel
      September 15, 2017 • 2:51 pm
      abdullah

      “Are you saying that you don’t believe that Jesus is the (begotten) son of God?”

      Only in the sense that Jesus is divine – not in the sense that mohammed and allah got so hopelessly wrong.

      i say;
      That is what begotten means. To have sex and produce a son. Your Christian theology is so hopelessly wrong to use the word “begotten” and “Son/son” to relate to God.

      ———

      be·get
      bəˈɡet/Submit
      verbliterary
      past participle: begotten
      1.
      (typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.
      “they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen”
      synonyms: father, sire, have, bring into the world, give life to, bring into being, spawn
      “he begat a son”

      Source: https://www.google.ca/search?q=what+is+begotten&rlz=1C1AVFC_enCA762CA762&oq=what+is+bego&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.7937j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

      ———

      Son/son means Son/son and it is either literal, adopted or metaphorical. God Almighty is non of these i.e. God is not Son/son to anyone, whether you add capital to the son or not. What is wrong if the Quran corrects you not to use “begotten” or “Son/son” to describe God Almighty, no matter how you view it, it is not suitable for God?
      It is a correction you must gracefully accept and convert to Islam, instead of blaming the correction.

      Some Bibles removed the “begotten” and replaced it with “Unique Son/son”. Those Christians are beginning to see the word “begotten” means to have sex and produce a Son/son.

      Thanks.

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    • Ibn

      “Christianity did get the religion of Jesus wrong, as he never preached Trinity, curse of original sin, faith based redemption by the cross, or claimed deity for himself.”

      Jesus taught his own divinity, that none are without sin, and that faith in him is the path to redemption. You are so wrong.

      Allah and mohammed, on the other hand, can’t even formulate the trinity, or comprehend what christians meant when they said “Son of God”.

      abduul

      “Divine god’s offspring then ?”

      Not offspring – your god and prophet could not even comprehend this simple terminology. How is it possible that your “god” can’t understand this concept that is supposed to be mere man-made theology? How can allah and his messenger be confounded by human minds?

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    • “Jesus taught his own divinity, that none are without sin,”

      this implies that adam was divine before he eat from the tree.

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    • “Divine god’s offspring then ?”

      Not offspring

      ////////////////

      offspring
      ˈɒfsprɪŋ/Submit
      noun
      a person’s child or children.

      mary gave birth to fully god and fully man.

      jesus was begotten

      yhwh himself says he begets

      I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.

      quote :
      In Biblical Hebrew the Qal form of the verb w/y-l-d means both “give birth to” (of a woman) and “beget” (of a man). This is true regardless of whether the subject is a divine or a mortal being. You can convince yourself of this by looking at any of the genealogical lists, for example Gen. 11:10 sqq.

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    • Joel,
      “Jesus taught his own divinity, that none are without sin, and that faith in him is the path to redemption.”

      Keep telling yourself that.

      However, NT Historical Criticism and the majority of Bible Scholarship today would seem to disagree with you. I think it is preferable to take their word on the matter over yours .

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ibn

      No NT scholars regard teh quran as authoritative on the life of jesus – I’ll take their word over yours.

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    • Joel,
      The Qur’an works under an assumption that we already are familiar with the basic story of Jesus, therefore it does not regurgitate all of the useless details, and simply make the points that are necessary about Jesus in relation to Gods religion of Absolute Monotheism. In the end Qur’anic portrayal of Jesus, agrees with the basic understandings that modern scholarship has about Historical Jesus. While on the other hand, the Christian understandings of Jesus as a Greco-Roman Man God, does not agree with modern scholarship.

      Liked by 1 person

    • “Not offspring”
      But that’s exactly what ( begotten) means. It means offspring!
      Have you invented a new language?

      BTW, Quran is quite correct when it strikes the (reality) of your belief and its logically consequences, which matches the history of christianity and how it got developed by time.

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    • Ibn

      The quran doesn’t regurgitate actual christian theology because mohammed and allah don’t know it – how can a “god” not comprehend human ideas?

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    • abul

      You are being obtuse. Allah and mohammed clearly did not understand the concept of christian theology – jesus is not god’s son in the sense that you are the son of your father. No amount of semantic wrangling can save your religion from this gross and absurd mistake that your god and his prophet made about christianity.

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    • Joel,
      Before you start crying, could you tell us what the word (begotten) means ?

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    • abdul

      In the christian context it does not mean that jesus was god’s offspring in the sense that you are the offspring of your father. It isn’t hard.

      The hard part is acknowledging that your god is not all-knowing, and hence, not the true god.

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    • In the christian context it does not mean that jesus was god’s offspring in the sense that you are the offspring of your father”

      thats like saying when father and his wisdom copulated to reproduce jesus eternally, then it is not copulation in a human sense.

      yhwh begets LIKE human beings. yhwh is very human like in the old testament.

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    • heathclif

      Nonsense. God is triune – unlike anything in creation and beyond the full comprehension of human minds.

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    • “Nonsense. God is triune – unlike anything in creation and beyond the full comprehension of human minds.”

      SENSE. is it not part of your belief that mary brought out 2 natures , 1 person from her body and then nursed 1 person, 2 natures?

      we call this in english “to give birth too”

      but before birth there is a process called begetting

      in ot , yhwh has taken on flesh appearance before, so we must conclude that yhwh had some physical overshadowing of mary because yhwh himself says “this day i have BEGOTTEN you”

      quote :

      In Biblical Hebrew the Qal form of the verb w/y-l-d means both “give birth to” (of a woman) and “beget” (of a man). This is true regardless of whether the subject is a divine or a mortal being. You can convince yourself of this by looking at any of the genealogical lists, for example Gen. 11:10 sqq.

      if we put two and two together, then an act of physical REPRODUCTION was taking place.
      think about it. how did the END product become a PHYSICAL flesh god and NOT a ghost?

      yhwh himself says he begets LIKE a man.

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    • ” God is triune – unlike anything in creation and beyond the full comprehension of human minds”

      that’s a pathetic christian LIE. yhwh has FULL of EXPERIENTIAL FEELS of GUILT , repentance, LOVE, marital relationships, SMELL OF BURNING flesh etc etc

      yhwh EVEN before incarnation has human FEELINGS.

      yhwh in the form of jesus would have full on experiential feelings of sexual temptations etc

      so don’t lie about yhwh.

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    • Joel,
      In the christian context, what does the word( begotten) mean?

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  6. It should have been:

    The Bible is an exciting, dramatic, and beautiful story of how the Triune God, from eternity planned, and then accomplished redemption of people from all nations, by the eternal Son voluntarily coming and, out of love, taking the just punishment in our place, for our sin, and how God the Father treats us as righteous children.

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    • Taking punishment in a way Yahweh had numerous times affirmed that he detests.
      Proverbs 17v15 “Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent, the Lord hates both’.

      Quite a test of consistency for Yahweh. He seemed to have failed his own test.

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    • Proverbs 17:15 would apply to what Caiaphas and the Jewish leaders and Pilate did to Jesus – what they did was unjust and the Lord hates their sinful actions.

      But the Father and the Son agreed together in eternity past and the Son voluntarily took the punishment and paid the price and rose from the dead and proved His atonement was powerful for us sinful humans in all nations.
      Psalm 2:1-12
      Isaiah 53:1-12, especially verse 10
      Revelation 5:9
      John 10:18

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    • “by the eternal Son voluntarily coming and, out of love, taking the just punishment in our place, for our sin, ”

      he can’t take any punishment in “our place” it is all a christian scam

      1. the son is being supported by divine nature even while being punished
      2. the son gets designed to bear his own trinitarian punishment
      3. the son has full knowledge that his dad will save him from ETERNAL damnation

      it is not beautiful , it is a scam and a cheat. there is nothing loving about it because the invisible father gives you a bloody go between.

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    • mr.heathcliff,
      you are free to think about the message of Christ however you want; accept it or reject it.

      only God can open your heart.
      John 6:44
      John 8:43
      John 8:47
      Acts 16:14
      Ephesians 2:1-9
      Ezekiel 36:26-27
      John 3:1-21

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    • ” taking the just punishment in our place, ”

      and who wanted to punish humans in the depths of hell to begin with? and who WILL punish humans in the depths of HELL? god is the one who DESIRES to punish sinful people.

      “taking the punishment in our place” while at the same time he knows he will PUNISH IN THE DEPTHS OF HELL?

      on one hand you want to shed a tear for your god “poor god, look he took our punishment ” and at same time you believe this SAME god WILL PUNISH in the DEPTHS of hell.

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    • “only God can open your heart.”

      he has, that’s why i am not an infant/baby phobe.

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    • I am not afraid of infants or babies either.

      But God has opened my heart and changed my heart into a heart of submissive repentance and faith in Christ (Ezekiel 36:26-27); but you still have a hard sinful rebellious selfish prideful heart.

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    • Ken, you still shower us with a very cheap preaching.
      What’s the manifestation of that obedient heart that you have? It’s nothing! You are a mushrik. It’s the darkness itself that you have.
      Christians are the worst when they think they got saved by the death of god’s offspring.
      Muslims are the best. Their haerts are soft for they believe in the words of Allaah(sw).
      “So is one whose breast Allaah has expanded to [accept] Islam and he is upon a light from his Lord [like one whose heart rejects it]? Then woe to those whose hearts are hardened against the remembrance of Allah . Those are in manifest error
      Allaah has sent down the best statement: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allaah . That is the guidance of Allaah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allaah leaves astray – for him there is no guide.
      Then is he who will shield with his face the worst of the punishment on the Day of Resurrection [like one secure from it]? And it will be said to the wrongdoers, “Taste what you used to earn.
      So Allaah made them taste disgrace in worldly life. But the punishment of the Hereafter is greater, if they only knew.”
      QT.

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    • “Muslims are the best.”

      Quite an arrogant statement; because it shows you think you are better than others. If Muslims think they are better than other peoples, that is a form of bigotry and prejudice.

      You didn’t write, “The Islamic way is the best way of salvation or guidance to heaven; you actually wrote, “Muslims are the best”.

      See, Christians never say “We are the best”. We are sinners and not better than you. Our salvation is only because the grace of God in Jesus Christ, His person, His atonement, His resurrection, and His sovereignty in working in our hearts and making us alive by the Holy Spirit.

      Ephesians 2:1-10

      1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
      2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
      3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

      4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
      6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
      7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
      8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
      9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

      10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

      The result of verses 5-9 is that a life and heart is changed into verse 10 so that now we are enabled to do good works.

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    • “but you still have a hard sinful rebellious selfish prideful heart.”

      God told me i dont need a bloody go between. God says i can save my self from sin .

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    • You think you can save yourself – in your opinion you are the “Savior”. That is blasphemy. You just put yourself in God’s position and committed Shirk and Kufr.

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    • You think you can save yourself – in your opinion you are the “Savior”. That is blasphemy. You just put yourself in God’s position and committed Shirk and Kufr.”

      no it isn’t you kaafir, since the belief is that God is the one who will make it possible. why should a kaafir like you have any problem with me doing the WILL of God and God allowing that to happen?
      your god said that even noah could save himself :

      even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

      if my statements were SHIRK , then how about the SHIRK IN your own bible

      quote :
      God teaches repeatedly that your spiritual salvation lies completely in your own hand. You are the author of your spiritual destiny (see Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33).

      “guide us to the straight path”

      implies ONE is SEEKING GOD to help walk His path.

      some more SHIRK for you :

      Ezekiel 14:14,20(JPT) – (14) Now should these three men be in its midst-[namely] Noah, Daniel, and Job – they would save themselves with their righteousness, says the Lord God.
      (20) And Noah, Daniel, and Job are in its midst, as I live, says the Lord God, if they will save a son or a daughter; they with their righteousness would save themselves.

      Did you also notice how Ezekiel points out that they would save themselves, i.e., without the need for the blood of an intercessor/savior “saving them”?

      //////

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    • Noah, Job, and Daniel all understood their life under the sacrificial system – Genesis all the way through, Exodus, Leviticus, the temple in 1-2 Kings, Chronicles, etc.

      Ezekiel is writing at a time when the Babylonians are going to destroy the first temple – Solomon’s temple – as a judgment on Israel. (see, they could not live up to the law)

      And all the “in order to make atonement” verses in Ezekiel chapters 40-48 show that you are wrong.

      Noah first found grace in the eyes of the Lord, then he was able to obey God.
      Genesis 6:7-10. etc/

      Job understood the sacrificial system in Job chapters 1-2, obviously.

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    • “You think you can save yourself – in your opinion you are the “Savior”. ”

      God HIMSELF says in your OWN bible HUMANS CAN SAVE THEMSELVES !

      how?

      BY LISTENING TO HIM ?

      BY repenting

      by doing tzedekah

      and of course with the ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that everything BELONGS TO Him and to Him everything will RETURN.

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    • “Quite an arrogant statement; because it shows you think you are better than others. If Muslims think they are better than other peoples, that is a form of bigotry and prejudice.”
      Do not try to play with my words. You know what the context was when I said that.
      Then Yes, muslims are the best than other people in the sense that muslims are the beliveres but others are not from the Islamic prespective.
      In your religion, the believers are the best, no?
      So please stop being the drama queen.

      “See, Christians never say “We are the best”. We are sinners and not better than you.”
      You keep telling us that you’re saved arrogantly for you believe in a god who dies.

      ” But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. ” QT .

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    • how can you read the bible and tell me “i put myself in gods position”

      read ehrmans book “how jesus became god”

      he will show you EXAMPLES of jews putting MERE mortals in gods position and authority.

      in his debate with justin bass, he said the FOLLOWING :

      there are lots of jewish texts that talk about others who become god
      bass : not equal with yhwh
      ehrman : yeah actually
      ehrman : 1st enoch
      ehrman : who is the son of man in enoch?
      who is he identified with?
      bass: he is identified as enoch
      ehrman : he is identified as the man enoch and all the angels fall down and worship him

      /////////

      from a biblical basis you have no basis to tell me if i am in gods position to activate my own salvation since bible god allows humans to do stuff he does.

      yes, the bible is the biggest shirkiest book on the planet. it even allowed the pauline jesus to get away with kufr and shirk .

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    • “Quite an arrogant statement; because it shows you think you are better than others. If Muslims think they are better than other peoples, that is a form of bigotry and prejudice.”

      i just can’t find one example where the prophet of islam called a humble woman and her sick daughter “little bitches”

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    • “Noah, Job, and Daniel all understood their life under the sacrificial system – Genesis all the way through, Exodus, Leviticus, the temple in 1-2 Kings, Chronicles, etc.”

      kafir, they HAD to do works , didn’t they? they had to LOOK after the animal so that a good smell reaches yhwh, isn’t it?

      but you avoided the problem

      now some hebrew grammar for kafir like you :

      Two different forms of the root verb נצל (nun-tsadi-lamed) are used in the two passages:

      – At Ezekiel 14:14, the phrase is יְנַצְּלוּ נַפְשָׁם (y’natsLU nafSHAM).
      – At Ezeloe; 14:20, the phrase is יַצִּילוּ נַפְשָׁם (yaTSIlu nafSHAM).

      In v. 14, the form is a conjugation of the verb in the plural 3rd-person, future tense, in the pi’EL stem (the active intensive form of the Hebrew verb).

      In v. 20, the form is also a conjugation of the verb in the plural 3rd-person, future tense, except it is in the hif’IL stem (the active causative form of the Hebrew verb).

      Regardless of these grammatical differences, in both cases the meaning is basically that [they] will rescure themselves . The message here is that each of them was saved from some punishment of their time – Noah was saved when the earth was destroyed by the Flood; Daniel was saved when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by the Babylonians; Job underwent a difficult ordeal, but was later reestablished because he refused to curse God

      THEY SAVED THEIR OWN SELVES/SOULS.

      “Noah first found grace in the eyes of the Lord, then he was able to obey God.
      Genesis 6:7-10. etc/”

      genesis clearly says he SAVED his own soul . their deeds/ righteous SAVED their OWN souls.
      the text mentions nothing about yhwh BEING savior, yhwh put a condition in them which caused them to save themselves, no animal sacrifice, no blood, no KILLING of a pagan pauline jesus, BUT THEMSELVES.

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    • saviour
      ˈseɪvjə/Submit
      noun
      a person who saves someone or something from danger or difficulty.

      now look at the hebrew :

      – At Ezekiel 14:14, the phrase is יְנַצְּלוּ נַפְשָׁם (y’natsLU nafSHAM).
      – At Ezeloe; 14:20, the phrase is יַצִּילוּ נַפְשָׁם (yaTSIlu nafSHAM).

      now read this and weep :

      14 Certain elders of Israel came to me and sat down before me. 2 And the word of the Lord came to me: 3 Mortal, these men have taken their idols into their hearts, and placed their iniquity as a stumbling block before them; shall I let myself be consulted by them? 4 Therefore speak to them, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Any of those of the house of Israel who take their idols into their hearts and place their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to the prophet—I the Lord will answer those who come with the multitude of their idols, 5 in order that I may take hold of the hearts of the house of Israel, all of whom are estranged from me through their idols.

      6 Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: Repent and turn away from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7 For any of those of the house of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who separate themselves from me, taking their idols into their hearts and placing their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to a prophet to inquire of me by him, I the Lord will answer them myself. 8 I will set my face against them; I will make them a sign and a byword and cut them off from the midst of my people; and you shall know that I am the Lord.

      9 If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear their punishment—the punishment of the inquirer and the punishment of the prophet shall be the same— 11 so that the house of Israel may no longer go astray from me, nor defile themselves any more with all their transgressions. Then they shall be my people, and I will be their God, says the Lord God.

      12 The word of the Lord came to me: 13 Mortal, when a land sins against me by acting faithlessly, and I stretch out my hand against it, and break its staff of bread and send famine upon it, and cut off from it human beings and animals, 14 even if Noah, Daniel,[a] and Job, these three, were in it, they would save only their own lives by their righteousness, says the Lord God. 15 If I send wild animals through the land to ravage it, so that it is made desolate, and no one may pass through because of the animals; 16 even if these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither sons nor daughters; they alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land and say, “Let a sword pass through the land,” and I cut off human beings and animals from it; 18 though these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither sons nor daughters, but they alone would be saved. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my wrath upon it with blood, to cut off humans and animals from it; 20 even if Noah, Daniel,[b] and Job were in it, as I live, says the Lord God, they would save neither son nor daughter; they would save only their own lives by their righteousness.

      21 For thus says the Lord God: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four deadly acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild animals, and pestilence, to cut off humans and animals from it! 22 Yet, survivors shall be left in it, sons and daughters who will be brought out; they will come out to you. When you see their ways and their deeds, you will be consoled for the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, for all that I have brought upon it. 23 They shall console you, when you see their ways and their deeds; and you shall know that it was not without cause that I did all that I have done in it, says the Lord God.

      torah clearly says that noah, daniel and job are EACH Savior OF THEMSELVES.

      he even REPEATS it again and again .

      Like

    • abdul

      “Muslims are the best. Their haerts are soft for they believe in the words of Allaah”

      So you believe that if you hit a corpse with a piece of steak that it will return to life?

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      September 15, 2017 • 7:47 pm
      It should have been:

      The Bible is an exciting, dramatic, and beautiful story of how the Triune God, from eternity planned, and then accomplished redemption of people from all nations, by the eternal Son voluntarily coming and, out of love, taking the just punishment in our place, for our sin, and how God the Father treats us as righteous children.

      I say;
      I find so many untruths in your bed time stories. Jesus refutes you by saying that he was sent by the only true God, who is not Jesus.

      Proof:
      New International Version
      Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true Gl od, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

      There is no where in the Bible that God said he planned the killing of person with his other person to save humans.

      Voluntary means no command or control to do something on one’s own. Jesus was sent, so it is misleading to say he came to the earth voluntarily.

      Joel
      September 16, 2017 • 1:54 pm
      heathclif

      Nonsense. God is triune – unlike anything in creation and beyond the full comprehension of human minds.

      I say;
      God never said “I am triune” in the Bible but God in many places said “I am one”.

      Proof”
      “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
      “Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
      “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
      “Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
      “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9

      Do you want us to believe you or believe the Bible? Will will never believe a triune God because God never said He is such.

      Watch this video.

      Hindus Cow God is also unlike anything in creation because God has two natures here.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Intellect, if you quote John 17:3, you have to believe John 17:1-5, which teaches that God the Father is in heaven, and Jesus while on earth prayed to the Father, and said that He was the eternal Son who was with the Father in eternity past (John 17:5), which also points to the author of John’s statements in John 1:1-5 and 1:14 that the Word / Son became a human; and if you believe John 17:3, you must believe John 20:28 that Jesus is God and Lord adn 20:30-31 that Jesus is the eternal Son of God and that you can have eternal life in heave if you trust/believe in Him as the NT (the true Injeel) teaches.
      Thanks.

      Like

    • Thanks Ken. If one God i.e. Father is in heaven and another God, Jesus is on earth praying to the God who is in heaven, then we have 2 Gods. You know worshiping more than one Gods/persons like the Mormons or Hindus is polytheism and/or idolatry punishable in hell fire.

      Like

    • No. Because the Father and the Son are two persons of the ONE GOD, the Trinity, with the Holy Spirit, 3 persons in ONE God.

      Like

    • If each one of the Trinity persons is a person but not God, how to you call Jesus God? I said, you believed Jesus is God but you said no, Jesus is only a person but not God. Then why do you worship Jesus, a person who is not God? Worshiping Jesus, a person who is not God as you said, means you have added a thing, person that is not God as worship to the one God of Abraham and that is polytheism and or idolatry.

      Jesus is God, you said no, Jesus is a PERSON and not God. So, why do you worship someone who is not God? That is idolatry punishable in hell fire.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Ken Temple
      September 16, 2017 • 8:08 pm
      No. Because the Father and the Son are two persons of the ONE GOD, the Trinity, with the Holy Spirit, 3 persons in ONE God

      I say;
      I know that. Is Jesus God? Is the Father God?

      Christians call Jesus God. Jesus call the Father God. So, you are still a polytheist and the penalty according to the Bible is burning in the hell fire.

      Watch this video

      Thanks.

      Like

  7. Can you spare me Jewish verses that you have forced christian interpretations on sir? I afterall did not….. *do not get me crazy*

    There seems to be hardly any difference between Yahweh and Caiaphas. He eternally planned (whatever that means) to forgive sins unfairly placed upon us by punishing an innocent man who *freely* accepted to be butchered. Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin did pretty much the same thing!

    Like

    • The Qur’an presents the previous revelations in a chain of progression – Surah 5:44-47 – so the Injeel (the New Testament) properly interpreted and fulfilled the OT, even though the author or authors or compilers of the Qur’an did not know how or to what extent and did not know the contents. All they knew was that those were the revelations and prophets and apostles of the previous Scriptures, which are true, light and guidance from Allah.

      So even the Qur’an understands the Injeel (NT) as the proper interpretation in the chain of the revelations.

      Like

    • And there goes preaching as usual. Blah blah blah…….

      Until you challenge my proposition that Yahweh is as guilty as the Sanhedrin, it seems useless to continue the discussion.

      Like

  8. Chocoboy,
    Your quarrel is with Yahweh Himself – Isaiah 53:8-10, since He prophesied in His own Scriptures of the coming suffering servant – Messiah. Daniel 9:24-27 see the “cut off” of Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53:8; and that the servant willingly came to render Himself a guilt offering in Isaiah 53:10.

    God can do that if He wants to. He did something in which His justice and His love and mercy are BOTH preserved.

    He satisfied justice against sin.

    He provided salvation for sinners – for all who will repent and believe.

    repent and believe this good news. Mark 1:15

    Like

    • “…to forgive sins unfairly placed upon us by punishing an innocent man who *freely* accepted to be butchered”

      ken, how come those on death row freely accept their punishment and don’t need their victim dying for them?

      if i rape a woman and the woman decides to get sentenced to death on my behalf, then am i a coward for allowing her to willingly get sentenced?

      if i stop her and willingly go to the deserved sentence, then is that manly and courageous?

      Like

    • No mere human can do that for another human, because both are sinners; but the sinless Son of God can and did.

      Like

    • “God can do that if He wants to. He did something in which His justice and His love and mercy are BOTH preserved.”

      by transferring all sins in all years and VIOLENTLY pouring them on flesh was merciful and loving? you are crazy man. you even think babies are sinners.
      god can punish created flesh/himself and turn it into a good thing, but he can’t increase the good of a good doer who sincerely repents and turns to him?

      Like

    • no one is sincere unless God gives them a new covenant heart, based on the gospel of the NT, spoken of in Ezekiel 36:26-27 and John 3:1-21 – you must be born again.

      Mark 14:24 / Matthew 26:28 / Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:22-28- the blood of the New Covenant, shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.

      Like

    • “No mere human can do that for another human, because both are sinners; but the sinless Son of God can and did.”

      so if no mere human can do that, then we don’t deserve to be punished, god needs virgin and innocent blood. if only the brutal punishment of a god satisfies him and cools him off, then why is EVEN HELL CREATED?

      Like

    • “no one is sincere unless God gives them a new covenant heart, based on the gospel of the NT, spoken of in Ezekiel 36:26-27 and John 3:1-21 – you must be born again.”

      YOU can repeat this claim till you die, but what we see in thebible is that god initiate condition in noah, daniel and job which CAUSED them to save themselves.

      noah had the “holy spirit of new heart” which effected his words and his beliefs.
      this caused him to save himself.

      yhwh says clearly you don’t need jesus

      “Mark 14:24 / Matthew 26:28 / Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:22-28- the blood of the New Covenant, shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.”

      yhwh says you don’t need the shedding of god in meat and a god does not need to pour his wrath on himself before he forgive you. god did not forget that he can give the GIFT of forgiveness .

      Like

    • “No mere human can do that for another human, because both are sinners; but the sinless Son of God can and did.”

      god can TRANSFER sins and VIOLENTLY punish himself by pouring on himself (romans weren’t divine, so you just admitted that the romans who were MERE humans could not give it to your god like your god gave it to himself ) , but god CAN’T forgive a REPENTANT who repents WITHOUT jesus?

      he can turn an ACT of evil into “love”
      but he can’t turn an act of good/repentance into an ANSWER?

      Like

  9. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord first.
    Then he was able to repent and trust in God and obey and walk with the Lord and live a righteous life.
    God’s grace saved him, not Noah himself.
    Genesis 6:5-12

    Like

    • Why should we believe in your false prophet Paul?

      Like

    • he could not be recipient of gods mercy if he did not do what god wanted him to do.

      he saved himself when he listened to god
      he saved himself when he built the boat
      he saved himself when he obeyed god.

      bible repeatedly says noah SAVED himself.
      bible says one has to:

      quote :
      Tzadik/tzedek appear a few hundred times in Tanakh and it always means someone who DOES the RIGHT THING. There is one time where God COUNTS Avraham’s believing in God’s words as justice/righteousness. It doesn’t say that this belief made Avraham a tzadik. The belief was considered as if he had DONE “tzedakah” as the verse says.

      god in bible created condition in noah which caused noah to save himself from destruction

      quote :
      8 But Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord.

      Noah Pleases God
      9 These are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

      if noah were a christian , he would have sunk and drowned.

      Like

    • your understanding of grace is contradicted by what the jews say :

      The word for “serve” is OVED which means to serve or to WORK. This verse doesn’t say, “You will return and discern between the righteous (tzadik) and the wicked (rasha), between he that BELIEVES/HAS FAITH and he that does not BELIEVE/HAVE FAITH.” It says nothing about faith (emunah). Why? Because SERVICE/WORKING FOR GOD includes faith; faith is a part of service. There is no such thing in Tanakh as a tzadik who has FAITH ALONE. As I said before, there is not even a word in Tanakh for someone who believes or has faith.
      :::::::
      God teaches repeatedly that your spiritual salvation lies completely in your own hand. You are the author of your spiritual destiny (see Genesis 4:7, Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 18 and 33). God’s salvation is purely physical and/or political (i.e., He saves us from annihilation, He saves us from our enemies). This is how the word salvation is used throughout the Hebrew Bible. Show me one place where the word “yeshua” (salvation) or “ge’ulah” (redemption) means God will save you from your sins.

      :::::::::
      “So, how do you define “Does Justice”?”
      People have to do justice (tzedek/tzedakah) and Hashem does tzedek. People have to do tzedek and tzedaka by following the divine laws that govern our relationship with our fellow humans and with Hashem. Hashem does justice with us in that everything He does with us is perfectly fair and out of love and for our good even if we can’t understand how it is good and fair.
      “And, what happened to “sin” in your definitions of “righteous” or “righteousness”?”
      A tzadik is someone who consistently tries to maximize that amount of time he is law-abiding and to minimize the times he breaks the law. And teshuva is an integral part of his life. Proverbs 24:16 – “For seven times a tzadik falls and gets up, and the wicked stumble in evil.”

      Like

  10. “No. Because the Father and the Son are two persons of the ONE GOD, the Trinity, with the Holy Spirit, 3 persons in ONE God.”

    i will identify 3 persons as x, y and z

    and i will say that each HEARS, SEES, KNOWS AND SPEAKS the same thing .

    how do they relate to each other using the one nature of HEARING , speaking , knowing and speaking?

    imagine eric , steve and lydia were seeing , hearing, knowing and speaking the same thing john was .

    how do all 4 relate to each other ?

    as soon as you have them RELATE to each other, how is it that you don’t have 4 SEPARATE humans ?

    Like

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