Keep the partitions up.

Gender mixing (ikhtilat) leads to flirting. Flirting leads to touching. Touching leads to zina. Zina leads to the destruction of marriage. The destruction of marriage leads to the downfall of family. The downfall of family leads to the end of humanity. Keep the partitions up.

~Daniel Haqiqatjou

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Categories: Islam, Quotation, Wisdom

23 replies

  1. reductionism is not wise…
    one could also say, ghettoization/apartheid/segregation leads to stereotypes and prejudice, which leads to misunderstandings and hate which leads to discord and violence which leads to the end of humanity…?….

    a more sophisticated approach would be to have social rules (manners) in which diverse people can safely interact and “get to know” each other so that our differences can lead to a growth in compassion and mercy….as the Quran states….

    an example is the doctor-patient relationship…it is often governed by guidelines so that respect is promoted and abuse is reduced….
    https://ama.com.au/position-statement/patient-examination-guidelines-1996-revised-2012

    To teach/instill appropriate social norms/manners and to have clear consequences for breach or abuse would be more helpful (and civilized) than creating barriers that reduce human interaction and choice. Humanity was created in diversity and this is a wonderful gift from God that should be appreciated and celebrated….

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    • Anon,
      you said:
      “one could also say, ghettoization/apartheid/segregation leads to stereotypes and prejudice, which leads to misunderstandings and hate which leads to discord and violence which leads to the end of humanity…?….”

      Your statement is not an accurate comparison with Haqiqatjou’s reduction.

      A more comparable wording of your reduction would be to say the following:
      “RACE MIXING leads to stereotypes and prejudice, which leads to misunderstandings and hate which leads to discord and violence which leads to the end of humanity…? keep the ghettoization/apartheid/segregation….”

      As you can see, this would not make sense to say in the same reductive way that Haqiqatjou did in reference to Gender mixing which is a completely different issue and not the same as Race mixing (which is not a concern in Islam).

      Having pointed that out, I do agree with your general sentiment that it is good to teach/instill appropriate social norms/manners and to have clear consequences for breach or abuse.

      However, I believe that in the Masjid specifically, the partitions are preferable and help both genders focus on communicating with God, rather than attracting the opposite sex.

      I also believe that women’s prayer spaces should worthy of Muslim women, and the space should be clean, spacious, aesthetically pleasing and should offer a view and sound of the Imaam leading prayers, and that the space should positively contribute to the spiritual experience overall.

      Like

  2. Unless you’re a gay, then these rules don’t apply.

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  3. Strange sentiments and not at all substantiated by the historical record.

    Primitive cultures did not seem to practice gender segregation, and even primitive societies today don;t seem to practice it.

    If gender segregation is so vital to human preservation and progress, why aren’t we already extinct since our most primitive earliest societies did not practice it?

    It seem more like faulty islamic reasoning at work. The bigger problem is that mohammed could not keep his hands off of women, even the wives of other men that he had killed or captures in battle, and the wife of his own stepson.

    This strange and bizarre sentiment reflects the human weakness of the islamic prophet, not the human race.

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    • Joel
      November 17, 2017 • 6:52 am
      Strange sentiments and not at all substantiated by the historical record.

      Primitive cultures did not seem to practice gender segregation, and even primitive societies today don;t seem to practice it.

      If gender segregation is so vital to human preservation and progress, why aren’t we already extinct since our most primitive earliest societies did not practice it?

      It seem more like faulty islamic reasoning at work. The bigger problem is that mohammed could not keep his hands off of women, even the wives of other men that he had killed or captures in battle, and the wife of his own stepson.

      This strange and bizarre sentiment reflects the human weakness of the islamic prophet, not the

      I say;
      Primitive cultures walked naked. Do you walk naked? Do you walk on the street of your town or village with only an underwear? You will be considered mad when you walk with only an underwear. That is primitive. Did Jesus walked with only his underwear on the street of Jerusalem? No. Did the mother of your hybrid God who is Mary walked with her boobs showing? Like how you see it on your street and also in strip clubs, movies and hotels? No.

      Your God Jesus Christ and his mother Mary were not primitive and they cover their bodies especially the tantalizing parts with garments. Mary always wear hijab and long dress and so is her son Jesus the Christ. They are not primitive but wise. That is what the prophet of Islam is learning from Christ and his mother to cover ones part and distance one from the opposite sex.

      Mary the Mother of your God is Holy because she lived in synagogue and segregated herself from men and that is why she was virgin, human of integrity before your God overshadowed her and gave birth to himself i.e. a hybrid creature God Man/Man God.

      ……to be continued

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    • Joel

      continued…..

      You said;
      If gender segregation is so vital to human preservation and progress, why aren’t we already extinct since our most primitive earliest societies did not practice it?

      I say;
      Why then would the conservative Christians frown with gay lesbians wanting to use all gender bathrooms without segregation? I think your foolishness and stupidity will lead you to champion the same bathroom for all genders without segregation. When you attack Islam, you do not think at all but to attack. Some Christians do attack Islam and Muslims but they think a little before attacking but you don’t. I am always here to expose your stupidity.

      Do you see Jesus Christ bathing in the same bathroom with a woman who is not his wife? No. Why the segregation? You fool. Do you see Mary, the mother of your God bathing in the same bathroom with men who are not here husband? No. That reason is why we segregate women and men in our Mosques.

      You said;
      It seem more like faulty islamic reasoning at work. The bigger problem is that mohammed could not keep his hands off of women, even the wives of other men that he had killed or captures in battle, and the wife of his own stepson.

      I say;
      Prophet Mohammed was the head of state and ruler and he could have any woman he wants like how most rulers do but you see him marrying older women, widows with children, the women no one would like to marry etc.

      Prophet Mohammed was offered all the women of Arabia by the pagans and he will become their king and get whatever he wants, if he stops preaching Islam but he refused. If he thinks how you think he would have taken the offer from the pagans but he refused.

      Our prophet was a ruler but he did not abuse his power but married widows and older women than himself, until his friend Abubakar offered him his daughter Ayisha. Our prophet also offered his daughters to others and they married them and that is Arab culture. He did force to take anyone’s wife, daughter or mother like how David did in the Bible.

      Do you watch television and hear how people abuse their powers to have sex with women?

      Some small list

      -Harvey Weinstein (Hollywood)
      -President Donald Trump(conservative Christian favorite)
      -Bill Clinton
      -Bill Cosby
      -Pastor Eddie Lee Long
      -President Bush(Senior)
      -Jim Baker(Pastor)
      -Jimmy Swaggart(Pastor)
      -Bill Oreilly(Popular newscaster)
      -Elliot Spitzer
      -Mark Sanford
      -Anthony Weinner
      -Al Franken
      Joel, I have many and the list goes on. All the above who represent what you called primitive culture without segregation could not keep their hands off of women who are not married to them and was accused by the women will tell you that your primitive reasoning of not segregating women did not work.

      More very recent list of sex scandal in Joel’s primitive non gender segregation society by New York Times.

      -Church Fathers: The most place for sex scandal is the Church and by Church Father, pastors and their congregation. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger(Pope Benedict) has to come and apologize to the victims of sex scandals will tell you how the Church has turned into sex scandals because of lack of gender segregation.

      The gender segregation cannot stop sex scandals but will minimize it and it is good for the Church to adopt it like Muslim did.

      ……to be continued when I get time, especially if you spew any nonsense, foolishness and stupidy from your brain, Joel.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Intellect

      “Primitive cultures walked naked. Do you walk naked? Do you walk on the street of your town or village with only an underwear?”

      You are incredibly stupid.

      The article claims that not segregating the sexes leads to the extinction of the human race. I pointed out that the human race has been for most of its history unsegregated which, according to the reasoning of the article, should mean that we should already be extinct. The logic of the piece is stupid.

      The problem is that your prophet was perverted – he was turned on by a 6-year-old, fondled her in the bathtub after they were married, and made her have sex when she was 9. Furthermore, he committed adultery with his slave girl in his own wife’s bed, lusted after his stepson’s wife, and allowed his men to rape the married wives of captured enemies.

      Sexual perversion infuses islam like a cancer – this is why you are incapable of even thinking about the opposite sex without considering their genitals.

      No other group has this problem – millions of women live and work with men without either destroying the human race, or families. Most don’t even have sexual contact with each other – it seems to be only muslim men who worry about not being able to control themselves because their prophet could not control himself.

      Please address my argument: if gender integration leads to extinction of the human race, why aren’t we a;ready extinct since we have been gender integrated for most of human history? Don’t give a long-winded answer that is stupid and doesn’t address the points.

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    • Joel

      The article claims that not segregating the sexes leads to the extinction of the human race. I pointed out that the human race has been for most of its history unsegregated which, according to the reasoning of the article, should mean that we should already be extinct. The logic of the piece is stupid.

      The problem is that your prophet was perverted – he was turned on by a 6-year-old, fondled her in the bathtub after they were married, and made her have sex when she was 9. Furthermore, he committed adultery with his slave girl in his own wife’s bed, lusted after his stepson’s wife, and allowed his men to rape the married wives of captured enemies.

      I say;
      Your hybrid God Man/Man God overshadowed a l2 year mother of his and gave birth to himself in stayed in a womb of a woman that the Bible considered unholy for 9 months before given birth to himself. Furthermore, your hybrid creature God allowed prophet David to commit adultery, incest and killings. Our prophet got an offer to be king of the pagans and get all women that he wants and he refused but spread Islam and married widows, the needy and tribes to foster relationships with other tribes.

      The article did not say “extinction of human race” but it said “end of humanity” and it means what is happening now. President Donald Trump bragging to be sleeping with women by heart and the evangelical Christians voted him to power by wide margin-more than 85% of evangelical Christians voting for sex predator.

      If you listen to news and watch TV now you will hear and see pastors, presidents, comedians, politicians etc. committing adultery left and right with the greater share of this immorality coming from churches, pastors, reverends and church Fathers.

      So, the article is good to point out that segregation in some instances and cases could minimize this immorality.

      Joel, I guess you visit strip clubs a lot that is why you are primitive because you have been seeing the tantalizing parts of women like a primitive man. Jesus and his mother are not primitive like you.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Joel

      No other group has this problem – millions of women live and work with men without either destroying the human race, or families. Most don’t even have sexual contact with each other – it seems to be only muslim men who worry about not being able to control themselves because their prophet could not control himself.

      I say;
      There is a problem. You either do not listen to news or you are a brain dead. No wonder about 85% or more evangelical Christian voted for Donald Trump who bragged of holding private parts of women. No wonder you do not see problem with sex at work places like;

      -Harvey Weinstein (Hollywood)
      -President Donald Trump(conservative Christian favorite)
      -Bill Clinton
      -Bill Cosby
      -Pastor Eddie Lee Long
      -President Bush(Senior)
      -Jim Baker(Pastor)
      -Jimmy Swaggart(Pastor)
      -Bill Oreilly(Popular newscaster)
      -Elliot Spitzer
      -Mark Sanford
      -Anthony Weinner
      -Al Franken
      and many more to disrespect women privacy at work places.

      Thanks.

      Like

  4. How precisely would gender partitioning work? Separate work spaces for men and women? Would women be expected to refrain from even going to work?

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    • socialized by western post industrial work ethics

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    • Is that a ‘yes I think women should remain at home, separated from men’ or a ‘no, I think women should be allowed to work?’

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    • darthtimon

      No. Muslims segregate at Mosque alone which I support. Some conservative Muslims want gender segregation at all level which I do not support because it is not practical and during our prophets time men and women used to be combined(not segregated) at social gatherings and at work places.

      Both men and women used to gather at the same place to ask questions and our prophet will answer with regards to the religion. They even used to pray together without partitioning. Some Mosques used not to have partition in our time but the women will just be at the back. It makes sense because a tantalizing part can distract one in his/her prayers even though it is covered. The beauty/handsomeness at attraction is inevitable and so the just segregate in prayers makes sense.

      I do not support gender segregation in all places because it is not practical and also un Islamic unless one of our Muslim brothers educate me on that.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • darthtimon
      November 17, 2017 • 3:20 pm
      Is that a ‘yes I think women should remain at home, separated from men’ or a ‘no, I think women should be allowed to work?’

      I say;
      Some very conservative Muslims think women must stay at home and I think it is un Islamic because the wife of our prophet Khadijah is a worker and a business woman working with all gender and Ayisha and other wives were teachers teaching both sexes. Ayisha, in one of the hadiths rode a camel during war and some people say she participated or commanded war. It depends on how one sees it. The women at our prophets time did not sit at home.

      The Quran says “lower your gaze” but it did not say stay home and don’t work. The purpose of this world is to obey Allah, follow his commands and repent and work is part of all Muslims obligations. We cannot segregate work i.e. female doctor with female nurses and patients or male doctor with male nurses and patients. It is just not practical.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • With this being the case, what is meant by the original post’s idea of segregation? After all, female doctors with male patients could lead to flirting.

      Another question would be – how would people meet each other? I’m glad you don’t think segregation is the answer.

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    • socialized by western post industrial islamophobia

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    • Going to justify such claims or are you just going to carry on trolling?

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    • darthtimon

      Total gender segregation is not the answer and the article did not mention total gender segregation. If total gender segregation happens, then we cannot meet our future spouses. Our prophet did not introduce COMPLETE GENDER SEGREGATION but limited ones so that it can minimize the problem of promiscuity.

      Just imagine a beautiful woman close to you in a Mosque and her boobs touching you in prayers. It is only abnormal person who will not get aroused. That is where our intellect is telling us to segregate in that case.

      At work place is different depending on the settings. Harvey Weinstein, Bill Clinton, George Bush etc. have used work place to commit sins, so something must be done at work places to minimize those unfortunate situations. A lot of women are coming out now to complain their agony with regards to mixing at work places. So, some sort of segregation and not complete will minimize the problem.

      There is a law in which Doctors cannot sleep with his patients, Teacher cannot sleep with his students etc. but most people ignore the law and have their own thing. So some segregation can minimize the problem. I think that is what the article is about.

      Thanks.

      Like

  5. Interesting, I don’t necessarily agree.

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  6. Ibn Issam—Thanks for the correction

    I agree with Ibn Issam and intellect—that there are occasions where segregation can be appropriate—and such initiatives should not be considered “discrimination” IF—God given rights and responsibilities are not infringed upon or neglected. Therefore it is not mixing or segregation that is the issue —it is that either mixed or segregated, oppression should not occur to groups or individuals. This entails that any issues regarding oppression and injustice should be taken seriously in both mixed and segregated environments. (and not just regarding women—but youth, children and other categories)

    While human nature is similar—the environments and cultures we live in differ—therefore, we Muslims need to consider both the general principles of humility and respect for the other—as well as pragmatic needs and choices best suited for particular environment and circumstances—which means that the Ummah may have differences in terms of specific “norms”/manners….even if the general ethical principles can be assented to by everyone. Such diversity within Unity is probably part of God’s plan.

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  7. @Ibn Issam
    Yes gender and race are not the same—but if we consider that despite racial or gender differences—we are all human beings and equally created by the One God—then racial, gender or age …or other categories of mixing/segregation are basically the same issue of abuse or misuse of power relations. Imbalance of power relations causes injustice or oppression—therefore the core issue is the same regardless of category….?….

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