Enjoy Dr James White crash and burn in debate with Zakir Hussain (must watch)

Sign of Jonah Revisited – Another FAILED Bible Prophecy! Dr James White, Zakir Hussain, Ahmed Deedat

Advertisements


Categories: Bible, Christianity, Debates, Islam, Jesus

36 replies

  1. James White is wrong about the “day of preparation” being the night before the Sabbath. The “day of preparation” is referring to the “day of preparation” for the Passover.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Reblogged this on The Quran and Bible Blog and commented:
    The Sign of Jonah…a thorn on the side of Christian apologists!

    Liked by 1 person

  3. James White…how arrogant that man is.
    Ahmed Deedat is still making trouble for christians since he was sincere and passionate for his dawah to Islam He demolished brilliantly all stupid “arguments” christians made in last century.
    His questions still stands as mountains, and christians have been stumbling since back then.
    His character – may Allah have mercy on him – is the best one to confront apologetic crusaders .

    Liked by 1 person

    • Sheikh Deedat (Allah yerhamu) was a GIANT in the field of comparative religion and Muslim apologetics. His lasting contribution is that he woke the ummah up from a deep slumber by simply pointing out the deceitful tactics of Missionaries and the weak and illogical theology of Christianity in comparison with Islam. He restored Muslim morale & pride in the deen, which had suffered during the Imperialist Christian led colonialist period and he showed the way in providing a peaceful way to polemically defend the faith. That is why many Christians still hate him to this Day!

      If anyone is a “Showman” it was Swaggert and the large plethora of Christian Tele-evangelists like him and the long line of Christian charismatics, charlatans, missionaries, preachers, self-proclaimed apostolic “Prophets,” fake healers and frauds – past and present.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. At the 2:15 mark of the video, Zakir states:

      “Jesus had foretold that he would be just like Jonah was in the belly of the whale. This saying is found in an early source of Jesus’ sayings, known as Q”

      One has to wonder, on what grounds does one claim the part about the whale is from the hypothetical Q-source? Does it appear in Luke? If not, then via what standard does one determine whether material unique to Matthew was in the hypothetical Q-source?

      At the 2:30 mark, Zakir says Jonah was alive, and not dead, but the reality is the text does not require such a view. The text can easily be read as meaning that Jonah died, went to Hades, and then was brought back to life. I wouldn’t say that’s the only possible reading, but it is certainly a possible reading (even a fairly straight forward literal reading). Or, to put this another way, there is no requirement even in the Matthean reading that the somatic states of both Jesus and Jonah be the same, but even if we were, for the sake of argument, to agree to such an artificial restriction, being that the Gospels are explicit about Jesus dying, and Jonah is somewhat ambiguous, it seems the easier route to go (within the context of this artificial limitation) would be to conclude Jonah died.

      As for the appeal to Psalm 86, I would first note RaSh”Y’s comment on the opening of the 2nd Psalm, where he notes that even though he interprets the Psalm as referring to David, there were Jewish sages who preceded him, who applied the text to the Messiah. Somewhat similarly, in Acts 2:27-31, Peter is quoted as taking Psalm 16:10 and applying it to Jesus. I mention these two points to note that, within the paradigm of both Judaism and christianity, it is possible for a statement in the Psalms, which seems on the surface to be a self-referential statement made by David, to be a statement about the Messiah (and this can include statements referring to Sh’ol/Hades, as is the case with the 16th Psalm).

      Secondly, even if, for the sake of argument, we limit the 86th Psalm to a statement about a David who had not yet died, even then we could interpret it as meaning he was delivered from Sh’ol before falling in (RaSh”Y took essentially this view, tying it in with Nathan declaring the removal of David’s sin with Urijah and his wife). In the case of Jonah, the text states that he prayed from the belly of Sh’ol/Hades. Thus, even if we understood David as being delivered from Sh’ol before he fell into it, we could still rather straight forwardly read Jonah 2:2 as meaning Jonah was saved from Sh’ol/Hades after he prayed from within it. [Interesting side note, the phrase κοιλιας αδου, in the LXX of Jonah 2:2, also appears in Sirach 51:5, with the verse prior (i.e. Sirach 51:4) referring to being surrounded by fire.]

      Regarding the time frames, in Talmud Yerushalmi 59B there is a line which reads:

      יום ולילה עונה ומקצת עונה ככולה

      Translation: a day and a night is an `onah, and the smallest part of an `onah is like the whole of it.

      With that in mind, it might be worth asking: was Jesus speaking to 21st century English speakers or ancient Palestinian Jews? For an analogy, consider the way Americans use the phrase “the whole nine yards”. It is perfectly conceivable for an American to say “I ran a marathon — I ran the whole nine yards”. Now, if, two thousand years from now, a person reading a translation of that statement concluded the person meant he only ran a distance of nine yards (rather than forty-six thousand+ yards), he will have missed a certain nuance. Similarly, while Jesus’s time in the tomb (according to the traditional Christian view) would not fit a literal three days and three nights for a 21st century English speaker, Him being there for part of the day before the Sabbath, all of the Sabbath, and then a part of the day after the Sabbath, could qualify, for certain ancient Palestinian minds, as being there for three `onot (which could be translated three instances of a day and a night).

      For a soft analogy I have shared in years past, New York City tax law posits that “any part of a day is a day”. Therefore, if I moved into New York City at 11PM on February 8th, and departed 1AM on February 10th, according to the relevant rule in New York City tax law, I was there for three days. That’s a 26-hour period, amounting to three days. If one objects “wait a minute, 26 hours isn’t even 48 hours, so it’s not even two days, much less three days,” they would miss that the statement about tree days falls within a specific, nuanced context (in this case, a rule within New York City tax law).

      Like

    • “The text can easily be read as meaning that Jonah died, went to Hades, and then was brought back to life”
      No! Not really! There’s no reason to read it like that except that you have already accepted the religion of Paul, which emphasised a lot on Jesus’ death.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Greetings `Abdullah

      The second chapter of Jonah opens with Jonah praying, and in that prayer he refers back to an previous prayer, which he says he uttered from within Sh’eol/Hades, adding that that prayer was heard. So we would have the following chronology:

      (1) Jonah goes to Sh’eol/Hades.
      (2) Jonah prays while in Sh’eol/Hades.
      (3) God hears Jonah’s prayer uttered in Sh’eol/Hades.
      (4) While in the belly of the whale, Jonah refers back to the prayer uttered in Sh’ol/Hades, celebrating that such prayer was heard.

      Without any reference to Paul, such a chronology can be understood as meaning Jonah died, went to Sh’ol/Hades, prayed from that realm, and then was brought out of that realm. As I noted in my first post, that’s not the only possible interpretation, but it is a rather easy and straight forward interpretation of the text.

      Like

    • Again, not really unless you’re saying that Jonah died in the belly of the whale.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Greetings again, `Abdullah.

      The reading I was proposing was simply that he died. It could have been inside the whale or before the whale swallowed him. For example, it reached the point where he was at the bottom of the ocean, with seaweed wrapped around his head (Jonah 2:5-6) – it seems to me possible to read that as alluding to a death before the whale snatched up his body.

      Like

    • You don’t believe in Hades do you?

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Dr. White is right about the Hebrew idiom “three days and three nights” and here is more tons of evidence:

    As Paul Williams would put it, all scholars understand we have to study idioms, metaphors, the historical and cultural background of the text, the context, etc.

    http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2017/04/three-days-and-three-nights-hebrew.html

    Like

  6. Denis Giron above is right. Good job Denis !

    Regarding the time frames, in Talmud Yerushalmi 59B there is a line which reads:

    יום ולילה עונה ומקצת עונה ככולה

    Translation: a day and a night is an `onah, and the smallest part of an `onah is like the whole of it.

    With that in mind, it might be worth asking: was Jesus speaking to 21st century English speakers or ancient Palestinian Jews?

    part of Friday stands for all of Friday.
    Saturday
    Part of Sunday stands for all of Sunday

    Jesus rose on the 3rd day after His death.

    Therefore, He fulfilled the sign of Jonah.

    Like

    • His (as) death however contradicts the sign of Jonoh (as).

      Like

    • No, it does not, because just as Jonah “resurrected” by being vomited up out of the fish (like a tomb) and appeared alive to the people of Nineveh and preached the truth to them; so also the Son of God, Jesus, resurrected from the dead and gave the commission to the disciples to preach the gospel to all the nations. Just as Jonah was a sign of the death, burial, and resurrection, and outreach to a Gentile nation; so also Jesus was crucified, died, buried, rose from the dead, gave the commission and power to preach and spread the kingdom of God to the nations.

      Like

    • Oh good Lord, do you people hear yourselves speak? The prophecy says “three days AND three nights”! Get that through your head! The three days are accounted for BUT where are the three nights? There comes a time where you just have to grow up and accept the facts. The fact is that the gospels show Jesus making a false prophecy.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Faiz, you need to grow up and study more on linguistics, language issues, and idioms and figures of speech. You must not have ever studied metaphor, idioms, poetry, grammar, etc.

      Like

    • LOL, oh Kendra. Are you whining again?

      Isn’t it rather convenient that whenever there is a problem in your Bible, you reach for the “it’s a figure of speech/idiom/language issue/linguistics/etc” card? Methinks little Kendra doth protest too much!

      Like

    • “No, it does not, because just as Jonah “resurrected” by being vomited up out of the fish (like a tomb) and appeared alive to the people of Nineveh and preached the truth to them; so also the Son of God, Jesus, resurrected from the dead and gave the commission to the disciples to preach the gospel to all the nations. Just as Jonah was a sign of the death, burial, and resurrection, and outreach to a Gentile nation; so also Jesus was crucified, died, buried, rose from the dead, gave the commission and power to preach and spread the kingdom of God to the nations. ”

      Blah…blah…blah…

      Jonah didn’t “resurrect”, so that’s another fail by Ken.

      And actually, Jonah was a sign of God’s forgiveness without blood atonement. He preached to the Ninevites to repent, which they did, and thus averted God’s punishment. No sacrifice, no blood. Just forgiveness. Alhamdulillah!

      Liked by 2 people

    • ” You must not have ever studied metaphor, idioms, poetry, grammar, etc.”
      Actually this’s what we keep demanding from christians. I mean many things christians have gotten wrong because of their ignorance in the Semitic languages. Any language is more than words and dictionaries. The language needs a sense, an environment, and a preservation of all that by its native people otherwise why do you think jews needed to the Arabic language to have a better understanding to the biblical hebrew?
      In fact, many passages in your bible make sense for us and according to our understanding because of the innate we have to our language as Arabs and because of the culture we still preserve.
      Look at Denis how desperately he tried to read the passage of Jonah as a literal death.

      Also, regarding how jews count the days! You do need to tell us that. Arabs before and after Islam count days like that. It’s not something new for us ,and you may ask any illiterate bedouin old man, he would tell you that.
      However, it doesn’t work with the sign of Jonah( three days and three nights) because It’s only one day and 2 nights. as the narrative show in your bible. Just let’s be honest about this matter.

      Finally, I affirm what brother Faiz said that “Jonah was a sign of God’s forgiveness without blood atonement. He preached to the Ninevites to repent, which they did, and thus averted God’s punishment. No sacrifice, no blood. Just forgiveness. Alhamdulillah! “

      Liked by 1 person

      • `Abdullah wrote:
        «Look at Denis how desperately he tried to read the passage of Jonah as a literal death.»

      In what way was the reading I proposed “desperate”? I notice the points I raised were not responded to, and surely we can agree mere name calling is unhelpful?

      In the second chapter of Jonah it is noted that he went down to the depths of the sea, and it reached the point where seaweed was wrapped around his head (verse 5). Jonah himself states that he had earlier prayed from inside Sh’ol/Hades (which, if read literally, can mean the realm of the dead). The whole picture easily loans itself to the idea of Jonah dying, praying from the realm of the dead, and then being brought back to life.

      Now, I do not claim that is the only possible interpretation, but it is one possible interpretation (even a fairly literal one). As I noted previously, the Matthean text does not require that Jonah and Jesus have the same somatic states during their respective sojourns, but if we were to place such an artificial limitation on the text, then, being that the New Testament is clear about Jesus dying while Jonah is ambiguous at best, within the paradigm of such an artificial limitation the easy conclusion is Jonah therefore died.

      [By the way, here’s a fun side note: just as the book of Jonah can be understood as meaning Jonah went to a realm for conscious dead, so too 1 Peter 3:18-20 can be understood as meaning that Jesus likewise went to a realm for conscious dead in between His own death and resurrection.]

        `Abdullah wrote:
        «it doesn’t work with the sign of Jonah( three days and three nights) because It’s only one day and 2 nights.»

      As was already noted, within ancient Palestinian Jewish idiom, it was possible for a part of an `onah to be considered like the whole of an `onah, and an `onah was a unit comprising a day and a night. Jesus’ time in the tomb traversed three different `onot, which, as per the definition of `onah given, would be three different instances of a unit comprising a day and a night. In short, as per the colloquial usage, the timeframe could loosely be considered encompassing three days and three nights insofar that it encompasses three `onot (three instances of a period that was considered to encompass a day an a night).

        `Abdullah wrote:
        «I affirm what brother Faiz said that “Jonah was a sign of God’s forgiveness without blood atonement.»

      Yet sacrifices are explicitly mentioned in Jonah 1:16 and Jonah 2:9. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned later in the text (e.g. in the third chapter) does not mean they therefore did not take place (especially since 1:16 conveys that local forms of repentance could typically include sacrifices).

      More to the point, I would propose two options:

      1. The faith of Abraham cannot ever, at any stage, require anything which is not explicitly mentioned in the third chapter of the book of Jonah.
      2. It is possible for things which are not explicitly mentioned in the third chapter of the book of Jonah to be required within a specific stage of the faith of Abraham.

      Choosing the first option will open the door to logical implications which can serve as veritible “reverse da`wa”. Choosing the second option would undermine attempts to treat the book of Jonah as precluding, or being contrary to, belief in the sacrifice of Christ.

      Like

    • Hello Denis.
      Yes I think most of your comments are just biased reading for the texts to satisfy the crazy idea of one man called Paul who believed that “god” must die so he can be free from God’s law leading to death!, which reflects how desperate you are.

      “I notice the points I raised were not responded to”
      I notice that you like to repeat your worthless points which we have already addressed.
      We tell you this’s a poison, and you tell us this’s honey. It’s your choice to be possessed with these nonsense ideas. The of matter hearts is for Allahعزوجل only not us.

      “The whole picture easily loans itself to the idea of Jonah dying”
      Not at all. That very story has been told again and again to show whatever the difficulty you go through , you may rely on Allahعزوجل, and He will save you even if the circumstances around you tell the opposite. And that exactly what happened to Jonah.
      Then are you telling us that that a person can die, then he will be given another chance to repent after death? You may read Luke 16. You may read how our father Abraham referred to the book of Moses as a tool to get your salvation as if it’s enough according to the religion of Paul, and here is the irony in that passage.

      “As was already noted, within ancient Palestinian Jewish idiom, it was possible for a part of an `onah to be considered like the whole of an `onah, and an `onah was a unit comprising a day and a night”
      We have dealt with this desperate try already,and again it doesn’t work. If we wanted to neglect your gospels’ accounts regarding the time, and tried desperately to create another meaning as you are doing right now, it would be 2 nights and 2 days at its best.
      Also, I affirm as Arabs that we have the same system even before Islam, yet it doesn’t work as Jesus stated it.

      “Yet sacrifices are explicitly mentioned in Jonah 1:16 and Jonah 2:9. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned later in the text (e.g. in the third chapter) does not mean they therefore did not take place”
      OMG! I cannot take one more even teeny tiny of a christian referring to the sacrifice system in the OT!
      What’s the matter with you, guys!?
      Are you telling us that a goat can deliver us to the salvation!? If so, then the whole notion of Paul’s religion is literally the most stupid thing I can ever imagine.
      The sacrifice system in the OT is one of many things jews must do to keep the law of Moses. It’s categorized under the law of God and the good deeds. That’s it. Read Isaiah 1.

      Like

    • Greetings `Abdullah

        `Abdullah wrote:
        «most of your comments are just biased reading for the texts to satisfy the crazy idea of one man called Paul»

      And yet, in all fairness, I did not appeal to the writings of Paul. It seems to me the points I raised can stand on their own merits, without requiring that they be punished simply because they might strike you as supporting an aspect of a Pauline position.

        `Abdullah referred to:
        «your worthless points which we have already addressed»

      Well, honestly, I do feel that, for example, my point about Jonah winding up at the bottom of the sea, with weeds wrapped around his head, and later referring back to a point when he prayed from within Sh’ol/Hades, were passed over in silence. If they were responded to earlier in this thread, could you point me to where they were addressed?

        `Abdullah wrote:
        «are you telling us that that a person can die, then he will be given another chance to repent after death?»

      As far as my points relevant to the book of Jonah are concerned, I would say that, if God wills, God can cause a person to die, send them to Hades, and then lift them out of Hades, returning them to life on earth. And a fairly literal reading of the book of Jonah can understand precisely that happening to Jonah.

        `Abdullah wrote:
        «You may read Luke 16.»

      Sure. Or, more specifically, why don’t we read Sirach 51:4-5, Jonah 2:2, Luke 16:22-24, and 1 Peter 3:18-20 together, and see how they fit together.

      (1) Sirach 51:4-5 employs the same phrase which appears in the Septuagint to Jonah 2:2, κοιλίας ᾅδου, the belly of Hades, and can be understood as meaning that one who does go there will experience flames.

      (2) Jonah 2:2 has Jonah praying from within Hades.

      (3) Luke 16:22-24 has a man going to Hades after he dies, and suffering in flames there.

      (4) 1 Peter 3:18-20 has Christ, in between his death and resurrection, visiting a “prison” which holds the spirits of disobedent persons who died in the time of Noah.

      These texts fit together rather easily. Jonah 2:2 has Jonah going to Hades, which if interpreted literally can be understood as meaning he went to a place holding conscious dead (with Sirach and Luke describing the realm as precisely that). Christ likewise, in between His death and resurrection, went a realm holding conscious dead. Ergo, reading Jonah in light of Luke 16, and these other texts, does not lead me to the conclusion that Jonah did not die; rather it shows me what Hades can refer to, and how the reading proposed lines up with what the New Testament says about Christ.

        `Abdullah wrote:
        «If we wanted to neglect your gospels’ accounts regarding the time, and tried desperately to create another meaning as you are doing right now, it would be 2 nights and 2 days at its best.»

      The problem with your reply is it ignores the ancient Palestinian Jewish concept recorded in an ancient Palestinian Jewish corpus, and the implications thereof. But permit me to go over it again, carefully.

      (1) First, let’s note again the Palestinian Jewish concept found in Talmud Yerushalmi (AKA the Palestinian Talmud) 59B:

      יום ולילה עונה ומקצת עונה ככולה

      Translation: a day and a night is an `onah, and the smallest part of an `onah is like the whole of it.

      (2) Christ’s time in the tomb traversed three different `onot:
      -(a) the end of the day before the Sabbath,
      -(b) the Sabbath, and
      -(c) the start of the day after the Sabbath.

      (3) The first and the third of those three `onot were only covered in part, but as per the relevant Palestinian Jewish definition above, a part of an `onah can be considered like a whole `onah.

      (4) Therefore, the time Jesus spent in the tomb, as per the specific ancient Palestinian Jewish definition referenced above, can qualify as three whole `onot.

      (5) An `onah is defined as a day and a night.

      (6) Therefore, if the time Jesus spent in the tomb can qualify, or be treated, as three full `onot, then it can qualify, or be treated, as meeting three instances of a day and a night (which would amount to three days and three nights).

      Quod erat demonstrandum.

      Of course such is not literal (i.e. He was not literally in the tomb for three days and three nights), but it does fit within a specific ancient Palestinian Jewish idiom or concept (and again, Jesus was addressing ancient Palestinian Jews, not 21st century Englishmen).

        `Abdullah wrote:
        «The sacrifice system in the OT is one of many things jews must do to keep the law of Moses. It’s categorized under the law of God and the good deeds. That’s it.»

      Two points: First, there was an allusion to blood-related atonement within aspects of the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law (see, for example, Leviticus 17:11). Second, the sacrifices in Jonah 1:16 are not necessarily sacrifices within the context of the Mosaic Law. If you start reading from verse 5, the easy understanding is that these men are non-Jews (and thus their attempted sacrifices, and their understanding of such, may have fallen within a non-Jewish paradigm).

      But this all takes us away from the more salient point of my comments, namely that (a) just because something is not explicitly mentioned in the third chapter of Jonah does not mean it therefore did not take place or play a role, and (b) what can be required at a given stage of the Abrahamic faith need not be limited to what is explicit in the third chapter of Jonah.

      Like

    • Sorry, quick addendum/corrigendum. Twice I referred to a text in Talmud Yerushalmi, but I did not give the tractate. It is tractate Shabat 59B.

      Like

    • “The problem with your reply is it ignores the ancient Palestinian Jewish concept recorded in an ancient Palestinian Jewish corpus, and the implications thereof”
      First of all, this’s a problem which has been acknowledged by christian commentators. It’s not only a matter of muslim guy who tries to make a point.

      Also, it’s really your choice! I mean fi you want to insist that ( 3 nights AND 3 days) goes with the jewish reckoning just because you say so, that’s your own problem. It’s really your choice to like to deceive yourself a lot. The matter is between you and Allah عزوجل.
      “Rather, man, against himself, will be a witness
      Even if he presents his excuses” QT.

      “I would say that, if God wills, God can cause a person to die, send them to Hades, and then lift them out of Hades, returning them to life on earth”
      It’s really not an answer for my question.

      “and see how they fit together.”
      I don’t see it! If you want to say that a person can repent after he dies, just say it explicitly, so I can “hear” you.

      Finally, “The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they (((repented))) at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here”

      Like

  7. Being in the heart of the earth does not mean in the tomb. It means a spiritual condition.

    Like

  8. The tomb is not in the heart of the earth.

    Like

  9. Another Bilal polemic attempt dismantled by brother Denis.

    Good job Denis. 👏🏻

    It’s back to the drawing board for you Bilal.

    Like

  10. In what universe is 1 day and 2 nights equal to 3 days and 3 nights? I know Christians aren’t exactly good with numbers what with them still trying to figure out how their God is 3 yet 1 at the same time, but come on.

    Like

Trackbacks

  1. Enjoy Dr James White crash and burn in debate with Zakir Hussain (must watch) | kokicat

Please leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: