Review: Ijaz Ahmad & Dr Tony Costa debate: “Was Jesus the Son of God or Only the Prophet of God?”

UPDATE

Muhammad Asad has updated this review by adding a section on the Gospel of John (with important references) and updated #4 with a citation by Professor James Tabor.

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Ijaz Ahmad debated Dr Tony Costa on the topic of “Was Jesus the Son of God or Only the Prophet of God?” (Trinity Channel, 9th October 2015 ) see video here 

London based Islamic commentator Muhammad Asad has reviewed this debate.  In his excellent analysis he summarises the main points of the debaters and then presents his analysis of some of the topics. Muhammad informs me that he intends to “be selective and present the main issues and topics which are of interest to me.”



Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship, Christianity, Islam

21 replies

  1. I’m pretty sure not all Christians mean “God” when they say Jesus is the son of God.
    What about Unitarians, Jehovah’s witnesses and others?
    Luke 1:35 – The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God.

    Seems like Ijaz just wanted to shift the direction of the debate to a position he felt would be easier to discuss rather than exploring what the term could mean.

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  2. Ijaz was debating a trinitarian and not a unitarian. Trinitarians consider the son to be the second person of the Trinity. For them the son is god. This is what ijaz was philosophically critiquing.

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  3. “Who are these eyewitnesses who “compiled” the New Testament documents? None. There really are none. The New Testament documents were not even authored by any “eyewitnesses” that we know of, let alone “compiled” by them.

    We have no documents from any eyewitness from Jesus’ ministry.”

    I beg to differ as a trinitarian. We believe that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses or those who spoke with them.

    ” This is what ijaz was philosophically critiquing.”

    We don’t look to philosophy. We look to the bible. Revelation trumps speculation.

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  4. “Simply, he will set out to show why Jesus could not be the Son of God (as in “God”) philosophically, ontologically and rationally.”

    For the Christian philosophical grounds don’t count. The bible is our epistemological basis, not the mind of man.

    “philosophically, ontologically and rationally.”

    This is just typical bubble blowing. “ontologically and rationally” are no different to philosopically.

    On philosophical grounds we could also claim that Allah, Mohammed and the Koran are not what Muslims claim them to be. Each religion would just be the philosphical construct of it’s adherents.

    “We believe that the Quran is the revelation of God. Therefore, it does not matter if this revelation occurred 600 years after the earthly ministry of Jesus. The source is God and God knows what happened.”

    Philosophy cannot prove the truth or falsehood of what anyone believes otherwise belief would not be necessary would it?

    Most Christians and Muslims would expect the debaters to argue from their scriptures. It seems CC capitulated at the beginning knowing that he could not argue against the theme that Jesus was the Son of God and a prophet according to the bible and he needed to try and bolster his denial with man-made philosophy.

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    • ‘For the Christian philosophical grounds don’t count. The bible is our epistemological basis, not the mind of man.’

      This is only true for fundamentalist evangelicals like yourself Paul. Most Christian traditions (such as the Roman Catholic and Orthodox) have a high view of philosophy and some of the greatest saints have been philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas.

      Your denigration of the human mind and its God-given capacity to reason is typical of that hideous man made system called ‘Calvinism’ and an insult to the Creator.

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  5. madmanna

    You said;
    Philosophy cannot prove the truth or falsehood of what anyone believes otherwise belief would not be necessary would it?

    Most Christians and Muslims would expect the debaters to argue from their scriptures. It seems CC capitulated at the beginning knowing that he could not argue against the theme that Jesus was the Son of God and a prophet according to the bible and he needed to try and bolster his denial with man-made philosophy.

    I say;
    If philosophy and reasoning does not apply to religion, what makes you think and reason philosophically, that your religion is the right religion? By blind faith? alone? Fine for you but based on that, you have no right to criticize other religion at all because they also believe reason does not apply to their religion. God in the Bible must not tell us clearly He ONLY ONE ALONE DIVINE BEING TO BE WORSHIPED because ONLY ONE ALONE DIVINE BEING is philosophical and reasoning to be made because you cannot say God is Five in one, 3 in 1, 2 in 1 etc. for the Bible itself have applied reasoning and philosophy to it and one has to reason philosophical to understand God and the Bible. The Bible said God is not Man and God does not change and God does not die. So the Bible which is your scripture does not expect blind faith from you but to reason philosophically and not worship Jesus-Man, Mary-woman, 3 persons i.e. 3 beings which is polytheism, dead God-Jesus Christ, God who changed from development into a Mothers womb and from only God by adding the man part to himself later etc.

    Philosophy and reason can indeed prove false hood because God said He does not die, so philosophically and reasonably, any God that dies is not God. Yes philosophy and reasoning CAN INDEED PROVE FALSEHOOD.

    The Bible did not say “Follow me blindly without reason and philosophy”. Show me where in the Bible it does say so? and that would have made Bible subjective and any religion that is subjective and not objective is no religion.

    If God does not want us to reason He would not send prophets upon prophets to tell us what He wants us to believe. By your method madmanna, any religion is a true religion like voodoos worshiping snakes in Haiti and Benin because that is what their scripture says, so they are right. Why not be an idol worshiper madmanna? if you do not reason but following scripture because you see the idol and it will be easy to talk to the idol directly to convey your message to God and reason and philosophy does not count according to you so far as you blindly follow the idol.

    Thanks.

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  6. Thanks Paul.

    Having got that out of the way I think it would be interesting to consider his philosophical arguments. Maybe some of them will backfire on him.

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  7. Two topics are being mixed up by madmanna .

    Many Trinitarians, even almost all (with the exception of some extreme fundamentalists) openly acknowledge that no eye witness had any role of play in the “compilation” of the NT.

    Some fundamentalists and conservatives have argued that some NT writings were authored by eyewitnesses (we’re not talking about “compilation” here). Nonetheless, most Trinitarians do not argue for eyewitness Authorship of NT documents.

    Lastly, Ijaz’s philosophical critique was directed at the notion of Jesus’ alleged divinity. This has nothing to do with the topic of “compilation” and Authorship.

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  8. Abdullah

    You said;
    Two topics are being mixed up by madmanna .

    Many Trinitarians, even almost all (with the exception of some extreme fundamentalists) openly acknowledge that no eye witness had any role of play in the “compilation” of the NT.

    Some fundamentalists and conservatives have argued that some NT writings were authored by eyewitnesses (we’re not talking about “compilation” here). Nonetheless, most Trinitarians do not argue for eyewitness Authorship of NT documents.

    Lastly, Ijaz’s philosophical critique was directed at the notion of Jesus’ alleged divinity. This has nothing to do with the topic of “compilation” and Authorship.

    I say;
    Mark, Mathew, Luke, John but not Paul of Tarsus who is not a disciple of Jesus Christ did not properly documented their documents-New Testament. If they can write a complete gospel why not properly document it? i.e.

    THEIR FULL NAMES
    THEIR PLACE OF BIRTH OR WHERE THEY CAME FROM
    THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST
    WHERE THEIR DOCUMENT WAS WRITTEN
    WHEN THEIR DOCUMENTS WAS WRITTEN
    WAS IT EYE WITNESS? THEY COULD STATE THE TRUTH ABOUT THAT
    WAS IT BY INSPIRATION? etc.

    The NT is an important document than all the documents of this world except the Jewish an Muslim scriptures that are equally important, so lack of proper documentation makes such a document from a dubious origin.

    Allah clearly and properly documented, authenticated and verified His Holy Quran and that makes it credible.

    [10. Surah Yunis: Ayah 37]

    “And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.”

    [4. Surah Nisaa: Ayah 82]

    “Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.”

    On Whom Quran is Descended?

    [76. Surah Dahr : Ayah 23]

    “Surely We who have revealed the Quran to you revealing (it) in portions.”

    [42. Surah Ash-Shura : Ayah 7]

    “And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire.”

    [6. Surah Al-An’am : Ayah 19]

    “Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one God, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).”

    For Whom Quran is Descended?

    [41. Surah Fussilat : Ayah 3]

    “A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know.”

    [50. Surah Qaaf : Ayah 45]

    “Therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My threat.”

    When Quran is Descended?

    [2. Surah Al-Baqarah : Ayah 185]

    “The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days.”

    Why Quran is Descended?

    [12. Surah Yusuf : Ayah 2]

    “We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur’an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.”

    [20. Surah Ta-ha : Ayah 2-3]

    “We have not revealed the Quran to you that you may be unsuccessful. Nay, it is a reminder to him who fears.”

    [17. Surah Bani Israel : Ayah 106,9]

    “And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.”

    “Surely this Quran guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward.”

    Thanks.

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  9. ” Christians in general are tremendously confused and uncertain about the doctrine of the “Son of God” and even more when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity.”

    How does he reach this conclusion? What does he mean by the word “doctrine” in this context? Didn’t Jesus just say believe in me? Did he say anything about it being necessary to understand a doctrine about him, whether that doctrine is the trinity or any other doctrine? How much doctrine did th thief on the cross know?

    To understand something enough to believe it is not the same as understanding it enough to be able to explain it in the form of a doctrine, is it? Who draws the line between the two for Christians, Mr. Ijaz Ahmad? Thankfully not.

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  10. ((I say;
    Mark, Mathew, Luke, John but not Paul of Tarsus who is not a disciple of Jesus Christ did not properly documented their documents-New Testament. If they can write a complete gospel why not properly document it? i.e.

    THEIR FULL NAMES
    THEIR PLACE OF BIRTH OR WHERE THEY CAME FROM
    THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST
    WHERE THEIR DOCUMENT WAS WRITTEN
    WHEN THEIR DOCUMENTS WAS WRITTEN
    WAS IT EYE WITNESS? THEY COULD STATE THE TRUTH ABOUT THAT
    WAS IT BY INSPIRATION? etc.))

    The gospels are anonymous. No one knows who wrote them. The authors say nothing about themselves.

    Your question is valid. But only God knows best why the authors didn’t answer the very basic questions you raise.

    From the Islamic perspective, the NT writing are indeed dubious and cannot be considered as evidence.

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  11. ” In Islam a prophet does not inherently have future knowledge; this is given to him by God. The problem begins if Jesus is “Son of God,” as in God, Jesus would then be expected to have all knowledge (past, present, future). He would not be given this knowledge. Being God, he would already have it. Yet a prophet by nature cannot be God because they do not possess the knowledge of the unseen (unless God grants them this knowledge)”

    This reminds me of Ijaz Ahmad’s argument against Anthony Rogers. An angel can’t be God because an angel is not God by nature. Circular reasoning is it not? The possibility of any prophet being God is zero because all the other prophets are not God. So this one, Jesus, can’t be God either.

    “He would not be given this knowledge. ”

    The giving of what knowledge is he talking about here?

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  12. madmanna

    Jesus does not know the day of Judgement so he is not God. Period, Full stop(.).

    Mark 13:32
    New International Version
    “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father”.

    Thanks.

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  13. ” The teaching of Islam is: there is nothing comparable to or like God. Ahmad asserted that this is the “best example of perfect-being theology.””

    In the bible this statement that nothing is like or comparable to God is in the context of the biblical assertion that man was made in the image of God.

    “Ahmad cites Michael Rea who asserts that God existing as a Trinity consisting of three persons with one nature could not be derived from a perfect-being theology”

    Depends where we get our “perfect-being” theology from does it not?

    “Ahmad asked how God could suffer? To say that only the human nature suffered, argued Ahmad, caused one to fall prey to the heresy of Nestorianism – because the two natures of Jesus are eternally united. Therefore, it cannot be said that only one nature experienced something whereas the other nature did not. It is either Nestorianism or polytheism, argued Ahmad

    · Arguing further, Ahmad explained that when Christians assert that God loves them or God speaks, they mean the collective persons of the Godhead. So when it is said that God died or God suffered – and given the claim that God is of one substance and undivided – then how can it be said that only one suffered?”

    Only the Son was united with human nature so only the Son could experience directly the suffering caused by death in that nature. We don’t say that God died we say that the God-man Jesus died. We are not told whether or how the Father may have experienced indirectly the death of his Son in his human nature. For us not knowing or being able to explain something is not a proof that the trinity is not true. It may be for others. You could say that is a problem of their choosing but it is not a problem that must be solved before we can believe and be saved. In general I would say we should not be inquisitive about what God has chosen not to reveal whether or not it would be possible for us to understand it.

    Is God impassible according to the “perfect-being” theology?

    Doesn’t Allah love and hate according to what he sees men do? If he sees shirk doesn’t that make him suffer? If it doesn’t why does he torture eternally in hell those who committed shirk?

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  14. @ Intellect,

    who said:

    “madmanna

    Jesus does not know the day of Judgement so he is not God. Period, Full stop(.).”

    I reply,

    For you that is a proof that Jesus is not God, for me it is not.

    Thanks.

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  15. @ Intellect,

    who said ” By your method madmanna, any religion is a true religion like voodoos worshiping snakes in Haiti and Benin because that is what their scripture says, so they are right. Why not be an idol worshiper madmanna? ”

    I don’t think so Intellect. I think what I said means that no religion can be empirically or rationally proven to be right. Religion is a matter of faith, which the bible defines as “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”. I can’t prove that Islam is wrong. My particular mind has been convinced that what I believe is true. I did go to Sunday School from being a small child. Maybe you could say if I had grown up in an Islamic country I would have become a Muslim.

    However, as a Calvinist I don’t believe in coincidences. Muslims also believe in predestination. At least we have one thing in common.

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  16. madmanna

    You said;
    My particular mind has been convinced that what I believe is true. I did go to Sunday School from being a small child. Maybe you could say if I had grown up in an Islamic country I would have become a Muslim.

    I say;
    We use our mind to reason something is true. You used your mind to believe in your religion. So, reasoning and philosophy counts a lot before one selects his religion when he grows and have an intellect. That is why we have people cross converting between religion. Most Christians like Paul Williams, Hamza Yusuf, Yusuf Estes, Khalid Yasin, etc. used their intellect-reason and philosophy to convert to Islam, but Nabil Quraish- a former Ahmadi, used dream to convert from his Ahmadi to Christianity.

    Sometimes if you do not use God given reason and depend on short cut like dream or being possessed by the Holy Spirit, you will realize that Satan can disguise himself in your dream and also as Holy Spirit.

    You did use your mind-reason to remain a Christian and that is what Ahmad and other rational human beings are using mind- to challenging Christianity.

    Thanks

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