This video is about me.
Here is a literal transcript of the relevant part of White’s talk taken from the first 60 seconds of the video:
‘There is one particular Muslim apologist quote and unquote….there are serious questions about this man’s life-style choices, shall we say [White looks at the camera knowingly]. Not even questions, I mean very obvious that he holds to a life-style view that is inconsistent with historic classical both Christian and Muslim understandings of human sexuality, let’s put it that way.’
——————–∞—————–
James White is being both inaccurate and unfair. I presume he has just been going off rumours and possibly Facebook comments from Sam Shamoun and the like over the years. Clearly White has no clue about my personal life. In fact it’s not his business in any case.
For the record (again) here is my view on Islam and homosexuality which I have always held to.
Living with SSA (same sex attraction) as a Muslim.
When I became a Muslim I decided that I would not hide the fact that I have same sex attraction. I wanted liberals and secularists (be they Christian or Muslim) to see that an adult convert to Islam with SSA could freely chose to live according to God’s law (meaning acceptance that all sexual acts outside of heterosexual marriage are haram). Also I wanted to educate any people who ‘hate gays’ that we are just ordinary people, not child molesters or rapists.
I expected to be abused for going public but I felt it was worth it to achieve in some small way my goals to inspire other people with SSA to embrace Islam and to demonstrate that we are just regular people not monsters.
To my surprise I discovered that 99% of Muslims have not abused me (yep, 1 did!).
Sadly most of the abuse comes from fundamentalist Christians like Sam Shamoun who just will not believe that I have chosen to live this way, and that I must be lying.
I still live with my former partner. I have never hidden this. Our friendship is very strong and mutually supportive. He is a Christian and as such we share the same moral code.
Other people’s disbelief that this is possible is their problem not mine. They underestimate the Grace of God and a human’s determination to live rightly.
Fortunately I am accountable only to Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta’ala) who sees all things and knows the truth.
Ameen.
Categories: Homosexuality, Islam, Missionaries, Utterly idiotic
Blogging Theology 
White is trying to instigate a witch hunt against brother Paul. May Allah be with you bro.
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Shabir Ally is always, making out Islam that it isn’t, do you believe Aicha was 18 years old at the time of her marriage? Dr. Ally most of the time makes stuff up. I heard some scholars label him as heretic. Most early Muslim scholars spoke against SSA. Shabir is not answering White but rather his own early scholars of Islam. NO MUSLIM COUNTRY TOLERATES SSA EVEN TODAY.
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Thank western secularism that you are able to live openly as a muslim with SSA and not meet a horrible end.
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The people of Lot weren’t punished specifically for homosexuality, really? then why does your holy book not mentioned those sins and stresses on homosexuality? It’s because this is a major sin and others are not. Deal-breaker? heard that term before?
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@Respect
The punishment sent to the people of Lot (a.s) was not only because of their immoral sexual transgressions, these acts were done in public. Furthermore, the reason for the punishment was also because they had transgressed all bounds and their immoral acts had become fair seeming to them despite the warnings they received (29:34). They were also involved in highway robberies and carried out evil in their meetings (29:29).
They knew that their actions were obscene and wicked, nevertheless they had no ambition to change their ways and they remained aggressively disobedient. This is affirmed with the reply they gave to Prophet Lot (a.s)
“And his people gave no answer but this: they said, “Drive them out of your town: Indeed, these are a people who want to keep themselves pure. (7:82)
———————————————————–
Allah tells us that His Prophet Lut, peace be upon him, denounced his people for their evil deed and their immoral actions in having intercourse with males, a deed which none of the sons of Adam had ever committed before them. As well as doing this, they also disbelieved in Allah and rejected and opposed His Messenger, they robbed wayfarers, they would lie in wait on the road, kill people and loot their possessions.
﴿وَتَأْتُونَ فِى نَادِيكُمُ الْمُنْكَرَ﴾
(And practice Al-Munkar in your meetings.) This means, `in your gatherings you do and say things that are not befitting, and you do not denounce one another for doing such things.’ Some said that they used to have intercourse with one another in public; this was the view of Mujahid. Some said that they used to compete in passing gas and laughing. This was the view of `A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, and Al-Qasim. Some of them said that they used to make rams fight one another, or organize cockfights. They used to do all of these things, and they were even eviler than that.
﴿فَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِ إِلاَّ أَن قَالُواْ ائْتِنَا بِعَذَابِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتَ مِنَ الصَّـدِقِينَ﴾
(But his people gave no answer except that they said: “Bring Allah’s torment upon us if you are one of the truthful.”) This is indicative of their disbelief, scornful attitude and stubbornness. So Allah’s Prophet asked for help against them, and said:
﴿رَبِّ انصُرْنِى عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْمُفْسِدِينَ﴾
(My Lord! Give me victory over the people who are corrupt.)
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“Allah tells us that His Prophet Lut, peace be upon him, denounced his people for their evil deed and their immoral actions in having intercourse with males, a deed which none of the sons of Adam had ever committed before them.” it sounds to me like a GRAVE sin, doesn’t it?
What I was saying it’s a deal-breaker one of the major sins, but Dr. Ally is saying or at least, it seems to me he is saying that there is no punishment for homosexuality. Most early scholars have used this story to condemn homosexuality. Here’s one Early Scholar: “(Lot, said, ‘O my people! Here are my daughters, marry with them; they are purer for you. So fear God, and do not degrade me, [do not] disgrace me, before my guests. Is there not among you any upright man?’, to enjoin decency and forbid indecency? (Tafsir Jalalayn, Commentary on Surah 11:78)”.
Under which caliphate homosexuality was tolerated? How do you know for sure if the people of Lot will not be punished if they ONLY indulge in immoral sexual transgression? Since as you stated it is a sin that no one ever committed before them.
Thanks for the reply.
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A thought…
It might be helpful to discuss how Muslims can support and encourage their Muslim brothers and sisters who are struggling to live with SSA.
There is more to this discussion than what hudud punishments might apply to transgressors.
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‘Respect’, as a Christian do you see the need to support your fellow believers who struggle with same sex attraction?
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PWilliams,
Sorry, I was just trying to understand what Dr. Ally trying to say and why he always ignore early scholars when they don’t agree with his Western’s views. Yes, it’s very important to lend a support to the people with SSA. They are also children of God just as much we are.
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I agree that Shabir has become increasingly liberal in his views and this is a concern to many Muslims.
But a Christian leader has called on Sam Shamoun to repent of the abusive and offensive language his uses. See Dr James White’s email to Sam here:
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/03/09/10594/
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John
You said;
Thank western secularism that you are able to live openly as a muslim with SSA and not meet a horrible end.
I say;
-Thank western secularism that you are able to live openly as a Catholic in the USA and not meet a horrible end.
-Thank western secularism that you are able to live openly as a Protestant Christian in the Europe and not meet a horrible end.
-Thank western secularism that anybody is able to live openly as a SSA in the west without the Church and Christians killing them. They do get abused by Christians anyway.
In Islam, there is a big difference between ATTRACTION and ACT according to the Quran where Allah Himself said “lower your gaze” but no where did the Quran said “attraction to a beautiful lady or a beautiful man is a sin”.
Allah created us with “Attraction” to either opposite sex or same sex and therefore cannot hold us responsible for that.
Allah will hold us responsible for not following his law and command. Jesus said he did not abolish God’s command and so the best thing to do and escape God’s anger is to do well and strive to follow God’s command.
What is God’s command for “Attraction” and “Act or” “Action”
According to the Quran but not early Muslims “lower your gaze” and it clearly means when you become attracted to someone, try not to over indulge in it so that you start lust or act in sex with the fellow.
I like Angelina Jolie, she is a beautiful lady and full stop. Most Christians do like her and are attracted to her and so is George Clooney. Is God going to punish us for attraction? I do not think so. Those who lust her/him, or try to have sex with her/him, stalk them etc. are those who commit sin.
Attraction alone is not a sin, otherwise God will punish everybody for that because if one is not attracted to beauty, then he needs a psychiatric evaluation.
We Muslims have commands from God to use our brain and intellect, then think very well. So, unlike Christians who will follow anything their Church Fathers say, Muslims will not follow anything our early Muslims say but will use our brain to make sure we choose what is close to the Quran.
No Muslim majority country will kill anyone who says he or she has same sex attraction but not committing the act but striving(Jihad) not to commit the act.
IT IS STUPID TO THINK IT IS SSA ALONE WHO HAS PROPBLEM OF ATTRACTION. We all have problem of attraction and ours is the opposite sex attraction. No one is immune to attraction.
Find below examples of people of all walk of life who had committed sin by not “lowering their gaze” and let attraction carried them away;
Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby, John F. Kennedy, Pastor, Eddie Lee Long, Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, Christian Church Fathers, Elliot Spitzer, Anthony Weiner, Pasto Jerry Falwell, John Edwards etc. etc. etc.
On a side not, the Trinitarians will say this is how God revealed Himself i.e. “3 persons 1 God”, even though it is not in the Bible but they will insist who ever do not worship God in such a manner is will be punished by God.
We are saying then, God reveals His clear laws and anyone who do not follow God law i.e.
-No any sex without marriage of man and woman has committed a great sin and will be punished by God.
Most people(movie lovers) are attracted to George Clooney or Angelina Jolie and both Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc. who watch these films may become attracted to these and more actors or let say any one can become attracted to a man or woman at a restaurant or in a shopping mall.
Thanks.
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Intellect
I think you will find upon further investigation that general peace between the catholics and protestants was established well before secularism overtook Europe – the peace treaty that concluded the 30 years war was responsible for that. But it is true that secularism protects gays from all religious prejudice not just Islamic.
“In Islam, there is a big difference between ATTRACTION and ACT according to the Quran where Allah Himself said “lower your gaze” but no where did the Quran said “attraction to a beautiful lady or a beautiful man is a sin”.”
You see, that tells me that Allah is not a perfectly just god, and it suggests that he permits uncleanliness and sin to exist in his presence. Christians believe that your very thoughts – if they are impure – make you unclean and thus, unworthy to be in god’s presence and enjoy his greatness.
It’s not that god is a tyrant, but that his nature does not permit anything unclean to exist in his presence – impure thoughts make you unclean since god sees your thoughts and godliness cannot coexist with ungodliness. There’s nothing you can do to attain the necessary worthiness so you have to throw yourself on the mercy of god, knowing that only he can change your heart in this world (not meaningless religious rituals like dietary restrictions or public exhibitions of piety and extravagant public prayer rituals), and wash away your sins for the next.
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John
You said;
You see, that tells me that Allah is not a perfectly just god, and it suggests that he permits uncleanliness and sin to exist in his presence. Christians believe that your very thoughts – if they are impure – make you unclean and thus, unworthy to be in god’s presence and enjoy his greatness.
I say;
My dear John, so in Christianity, when you see a beautiful lady or a handsome man and becomes attracted to him or her you commit sin? Then we all commit sin because it is only an abnormal person who will not be attracted to the beauty that God created. It is only a wicked God that will punish us for the “attraction” he created in us.
If you are an adult with a wife, how did you marry her? Did you just marry her without being attracted to her? If yes, then I will ask what sort of marriage is that? if no, then you commit sin by becoming attracted to her before marrying her. YOU COMMIT SIN BY BECOMING ATTRACTED TO YOUR SPOUSE BEFORE MARRIAGE according to Christianity and you are impure and imperfect by becoming attracted to your partner before marriage.
In Islam, attraction is not a sin but the Quran clearly states “lower your gaze” which means follow God law, so that you do not get carried away by the attraction and commit sin.
Do not lust or commit sex or stalk after attraction. Attraction is ok. in Islam but not a sin but follow God command and wear hijab and not to expose yourself as a woman and a man must lower your gaze and strive to do the right thing by either marry the woman and have sex with her or lower your gaze from her or him and stick to your married partner if you have one.
What is wrong with this command from God?
In Islam it is God law which must be followed together with God mercy and recognizing God is 1, only and alone as the Bible said, that will achieve salvation but not perfection because it is a sin for any one to think he can be perfect and pure like God.
We all do mistakes due to the temptations like “attraction”, “sin” etc. that is in the world and satan is alive to tempt us like how he did to Adam and Eve because the death of Jesus did not defeat satan. Following God law and praying by falling down to the ground and pray to God like Jesus did and fasted, like Muslims are doing now following the example of Prophet Jesus Christ can help us away from satan and satan temptations.
You said;
You see, that tells me that Allah is not a perfectly just god, and it suggests that he permits uncleanliness and sin to exist in his presence. Christians believe that your very thoughts – if they are impure – make you unclean and thus, unworthy to be in god’s presence and enjoy his greatness.
I say;
So to see a beautiful woman or a man is a sin? in Christianity? It is only an abnormal person who needs a psychiatric evaluation for not becoming attracted to a beauty or handsome that God created especially exposed part of man or woman. That is how God created us. There is attraction.
For God to punish us for the attraction he created without any law is absurd. There is law governing the “attraction” God created in us. I stated it above.
Attraction is not uncleanliness but adultery, lust, stalking, fornication, etc. are clearly against God law and that is the uncleanliness and sin. That is why either one is punished for that or sincerely repent to get God Mercy.
The Blood of Jesus will not help anyone like Pastor Jimmy Swaggart, as he himself cried on camera and asks God for forgiveness as a Christian. Jimmy and any Christian will sincerely repent like how Islam said and will not follow their Christian religion and say “Oh Jesus had already died for my sins, so I do not have to repent”.
Islam wins on repentance and Christianity lost totally because after they sin, Christians follow Islamic law to sincerely repent to God but not say “Jesus had died fof my sins and so no repentance.
Thanks.
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I think the best way to support Muslims who are struggling with SSA, treat them no different. And also, straight guys don’t try to empathise, you really have no idea what they are going through. Instead, ask them how can you be of any help. Talking helps, I heard.
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“I am accountable only to Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta’ala) who sees all things and knows the truth”
THIS
It’s nobody else’s business really.
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John,
If in your mind, God would hold us responsible even for our involuntary thoughts, then I’m sorry to tell you, but this view of God does indeed make Him a tyrant, AstagfirAllah. It is not “just” to hold people responsible for something that is out of their control. That would be unjust.
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Some people who born in Muslim family take Islam for granted, But you Sir Paul Williams not only converted to Islam but adhere to Islamic principles and rules. So kudos to you. Hope i am using word kudos correctly. Remember me in your Duas hope i do good in my exams, preparing hard.
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Wow you’re famous!!
I wrote the following for the post about Sam Shamoun but I think you’ve locked it? 😦
To my chagrin I have also used intemperate language online but now seeing the error of my ways I am trying to remember the fruits of the Spirit whenever I type anything (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.) Maybe someone could suggest this strategy to Mr Shamoun as a way forward for him?
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sorry about that.
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No worries, I hope he sees my comment!
But getting back to this thread, is there chance for continuous forgiveness in Islam? For example, if a person with SSA wants to remain chaste but keeps succumbing to temptation would he be forgiven under Islamic law or should he be killed?
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it all depends…
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Origen,
The door to forgiveness is always open, but it also depends on a person’s intentions, which only Allah (swt) knows.
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“Attraction” is not a “crime” in Islam and there’s no punishment for it. Abdullah Hamid Ali is a very conservative scholar with Salafi leanings. Here is his detailed article on this subject:
http://www.lamppostproductions.com/the-homosexual-challenge-to-muslim-ethics/
Most importantly: http://www.lamppostproductions.com/reflections-on-a-supreme-court-verdict-gay-marriage/
He’s a trained scholar and deemed to be a leading authority in the US on Islam.
A few quotes from both the above:
“The Islamic law is clear that it seeks not to regulate emotion or thought in
people. Consequently, while it encourages people to fight destructive urges within
them by promising reward for resisting impulses,21 it still does not offer any punitive provisions against urges that are considered unnatural. ”
“Islamic law does not deal with or concern itself with whether love is real or not. Two men may have real and profound love between themselves. They might want to live together, do business together, and share their assets. They might want to take an orphan and raise him. But homosexual intercourse remains forbidden in Islam. Homosexual “love” may be real and maybe even the same as heterosexual “love”, but the realness or non-realness of love is just not a concern of the Islamic law.”
“…true that the Shariah prescribes no penalty for the “desire” to commit a homosexual act. The Shariah, however, rewards a person for resisting any vile inclination. But that the Shariah has no prescribed penalty for this interior act does not mean that it does not seek to regulate the human heart, intentions, emotions, and passions. “
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Deuteronomy 21:18- says that naughty adolescents should be killed, so I just wondered if is a similar scenario?
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Arif, thank you for your helpful links
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I think all Muslims should remember in our supplications, Muslim brothers and sisters who are going through this trial and fighting this temptation this is a tremendous trial for them, may Allaah give them power and strength to overcome this trial and reward them greatly. Ameen! Please don’t ostracise them, they are our own. James White, I don’t respect you as much as I used to do.
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You think only SSA alone has problem or temptations?
No. We all have problems and temptations i.e. ours is OSA or Opposite Sext Attraction. Satan will not say he will not tempt you because you are straight or OSA.
Sam Shamoun has big problem with his very big stomach and he thinks he does not have problem but SSA has problem.
Satan tempted God according to Christianity. If satan can tempt God, who is immune from satan temptations?
Dr. James White has a problem of taking man Jesus as God but thinks it is not a problem but a man with SSA is the only one who has a problem.
If you do not have SSA then you have OSA as a human being. The SSA in my own opinion, apart from the temptations they go through appears to be not normal to marry and have children with the opposite sex. If they can follow God law and be religious with no any sex or any lust then I think God will appreciate their Jihad(Strive).
We all have problems but I pray for a gay who thinks it is against God law for him to have sex without marrying a woman. I pray for God to let them be straight like me to marry a woman or a man and have children ameen.
To those arrogant gays like Irshad Manji who thinks God has to change His law to her wish, I pray she and those like her come to their senses and start obeying God law and stop having sex but obeying God law.
Thanks.
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Excellent points Intellect!
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My comment was about MUSLIM brothers and sisters and Muslim brothers and sisters who are struggling to deal with this tremendous trial and it has taken a toll on them. With my limited understading, Opposite sex attraction has never regarded as abnormal like the Same sex attraction has and people who are suffering from same sex attraction, deem as weird by the society not me even today in most parts of this modern world, still they are struggling. You will not get ostracised if you are attracted to the opposite sex,
But homosexual has suffered a great deal.
Therefore, I don’t think Opposite sex attraction and sex same attraction is on the same level or the same thing. Again, with my limited knowledge, It is because Muslims who are attracted to the opposite sex they can get married, but Muslims who are attracted to the same sex cannot do the same therefore it’s a tremendous trial for them. I would like to add more to this, but I have to prepare for my exams.
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Salam respected brother Paul.
I have read your blog and seen many videos of you giving dawah for some time now. Through these l have learnt much about christisnity compared with Islam and come closer to Islam. I thank Allah, The Most Merciful, for giving me the privilage of learning and understanding my faith through you and many other wonderful muslims.
I’m outraged at the ad hominem attacks on your character and good name. Rather than addressing the legitimate issues you raise about christian doctrine, they take cheap shots at your personal life. Well, that’s the ‘loving christisns’ for you!! Allah tests us all in this life, May Allah help you through your struggles. Ameen. Keep strong, Respected Brother, hold on to the rope of Allah, He will help you through this. We muslims, by the Grace of The Almighty, will not be taken in by the pathetic divide and conquer strategy of the christian avangelicals.
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Thanks for letting us know how pathetic we are, but I hope that’s what you expect from us, right? Dr. White didn’t say anything that wasn’t said by your own early classical scholars. Read his comment again posted by the Paul Williams, He included Christian in his comment. Ad hominem from who, really?
“I mean very obvious that he holds to a life-style view that is inconsistent with historic classical both CHRISTIAN and Muslim understandings of human sexuality, let’s put it that way.’”
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This kind of dishonest twisting the opinions of Muslim scholars is the very thing that turned me away from christianity and to Islam. After listening to talks/discussions on Islam by people like james white, sam shamoun, nabeel qureshi and david wood and then fact checking what the classical sunni scholars (Imaam Abu Hanifa, Imaam Malik, Imaam Shafi , Imaam Hambal , Ibn Taymiyya, and others), say about the same topics/issues, i discovered at best gross misunderstandings and at worst outright lies by the evangelicals!
The same applies here! Show me from the Quran, the Hadith or ANY classical sunni scholar who has said punish or even ex-communicate anyone who has incorrect/sinful Inclinations. ALL agree that until you ACT upon bad/evil/sinful thoughts, you are not to be punished or rejected in anyway. BTW, even sinful acts do not take one outside the religion of Islam. Christians can definitely learn from the compassion of Islam
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show you what? where did I say anything about inclination? straw-man argument, really. I said Dr. White included Christian too in his comment. and where did the Dr. White says anything about or touch upon excommunication? everyone has a sinful inclination, you don’t have to be a homosexual to have one, lol. twisting of things further ad hominem, thanks it shows you were never a Christian.
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Dr. White is not just “attacking” Paul Williams per se and he is also condemning the people who hold that lifestyle, be it a Christian or a Muslim. Read his comment again
“I mean very obvious that he holds to lifestyle view that is inconsistent with historic classical both CHRISTIAN and Muslim understandings of human sexuality, let’s put it that way.”
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Respect, I do not hold that ‘lifestyle view’ as White wrongly claims. I corrected him privately but he will not correct his error.
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White et al. are becoming increasingly desperate
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‘Lier, lier pants on fire’….that’s your response, LOL! ????I’m lying about being a former christian…that’s your respose!!!??? Brother Paul is lying about NOT acting upon his SSA….that’s the best you can do!!! ???
Show me from these Islamic scholars, you evangelicals claim to have studied in so much depth, SSA feelings/inclinations/thoughts are sinful in themselves, without acting upon them. You’re creating a straw man argument, as you know ( or are completely ignorant of, as you are about all things Islamic!), there are no Muslim scholars who say this. I’ll just give u one example, Ibn Taymiyya, who was a classical sunni scholar (who many salafis take their rulings from, and you should be aware that the salafis are very conservative in their views!), his opinion regarding the issue of a man who is attracted to a man and a woman who is attracted to a woman is, the attraction alone is NOT a sin and it does not affect the persons Islam. Infact, they are Rewarded for controlling their desires! Wow! What an amazingly merciful religion is Islam!
I actually listen to James White dividing line, from time to time, I heard his ad hominem attack on Brother Paul and am absolutely disgusted by it. It’s the sign of a failed argument when you have to resort to underhand tactics of trashing ones reputation. Islam abhors personal attacks. What people do in their own homes is nobody else’s business!
We Muslims respect and support Brother Paul. His private life is between him and God. We continue to learn from his vast knowledge of the doctrine of christianity.
Shame on you christians for attacking Paul on a personal level, rather than engaging with his arguments. Let me remind you of Your bible, Matthew 5:44. ; ” But i say onto you , Love your enemies….” Christians can’t even ‘respect your enemies’ And ironically your username is ‘Respect’ What a joke!
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By the way, since you accuse us of being dishonest on purpose, I don’t like to interact with you anymore. You guys just love to pontificate.
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Bye bye then.
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When did I say you were lying Paul, where did I say inclinations are sins? Paul Williams, can you tell me honestly, who is resorting to ad hominem?
Okay, if that’s what you Want, I won’t comment anymore.
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Great. Bye bye (again)
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okay, Thanks for being honest. Paul just one last comment, then I be gone for good.
“I’m lying about being a former christian.”
what I mean was you were never really a TRUE Christian. Please next time try to understand what the person is saying before you write a “response”. Sorry, Paul if i offended you or hurt your feelings in anyway, that never was my intention.
Good Bye 🙂
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Lol – I was a born again charismatic evangelical Baptist for years. It is very convenient for Christians now to suggest I was never a Christian, but I was.
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Respect
You said ‘ ….it shows you were never a christian…’ That is calling me a liar ( sorry, in my earlier post should have said ‘liar, liar…!) .
Ohhh, you’ve decided to leave…. Surprise, surprise! Haven’t got an answer so just run away!!!
Bye -bye, the ironically named ‘Respect’ , who has little or no ‘respect’ for the private lives of others!!
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Lol
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Yes, Paul LOL!
there was nothing to answer, really. apart from ad hominem and red herring, I NEVER SAID INCLINATION IS A SIN. you made an argument out of it. duh, you introduced a straw man! However, if that makes you happy I do a runner, Yes I have!
It’s not about winning an argument or losing one, its about understanding each other views and respecting them even if we disagree. Anyway be happy you defeated me with you ‘responses”. 🙂
Goodbye!
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Is this one of your goodbyes where you come back in five minutes? Seems like you are a serial goodbye/I was only kidding guy..
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DEAR Paul Williams,
hmmm 😦 Sorry for being despicable, this is a the final Goodbye, Goodbye of goodbyes. Take a good care, Paul!!
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Lol yeh yeh see you in 5 minutes.
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I just realised who ‘Respect’ might be!!!
It’s a strong suspicion….who else thinks he is kind, good, intelligent, gentle, wants-to-bring-muslims to Christ, but in actual fact is an unpleasant, rude, abusive bully??? Non other than King of the Evangelical Bullies….Sam Shamoun!!!!!
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Lol. I bumped into an atheist yesterday who comments on this blog. He said Shamoun is a “thug”.
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You, leave that to Us (readers) who is despicable and who Isn’t? Wow, the comment above me is really interesting. Be good and be disgusting make no difference, right! I was at least visiting the blog, now I won’t even do that anymore, thank you so much for exposing yourselves.
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Thanks for stopping by. Goodbye!
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Johnny.t.Nerd
I as a reader concur that St Shamoun is a thug with a loving heart for Muslims
That is all
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Sums it up perfectly
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Johnny The Nerd may be Shamoun as well!!! So many identities. No wonder Shamoun’s so confused!!!
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Certainly sounds like St Sam, beloved of Muslims everywhere.
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Patrice, I want you to prove that respect is actually a Sam. I saw respect and Sam commenting on the other thread at the same time, Paul Knows this. Thread or post was about SAM. anyway, stick wid your theories I am through. Now I can definitely strike out Islam as a peaceful, loving religion. No need to sweat! Good thing is, i come this conclusion in my early 20’s. Keep up your lies.
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I am glad we were able to help Mr Nerd. Thanks for stopping by and have a nice day!
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Perhaps St Shamoun is proof of the Trinity after all. Three persons in one being.
Respect. Sam. The Nerd
Makes sense to me.
St Shamoun is also a marvelous orator. Not since St Augustines confessions have i encountered such mastery of both language and metaphor that i have often been reduced to tears regularly when reading his posts on this blog.
Or is Sam an avatar like Sri Krishna, Kalki and Rama? One who appears in this world whenever true religion is forgotten to guide us back to truth again and again?
Or is he just beyond explanation altogether. A wrinkle in the scholastic forehead?
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Beautifully put
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TEST TO IDENTIFY LIARS ACCORDING TO QURAN:
Shall we make it simple, as QURAN instructed to identify liars in one place: If I am Sam Shamoun, Curse of Jesus and Father be upon me, if you lot are lying curse of your god and angels be upon you. How’s that sound? I WON’T COMMENT IF YOU GUYS STOP TALKING ABOUT ME.
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OMG
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Respect (a.k.a Sam Shamoun a.k.a Johnny the Nerd)
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GOODBYE!!!! Take care you guys.
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The not-so-respectable ‘Respect’ is back!!!
Thought u were never coming back??!!
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Guys, to be fair, it is highly unlikely that “Respect” is Shamoun, and if he insists that he is not, then I am inclined to believe him. His posts are relatively mild when compared to Shamoun’s tirades.
As for Johnny the Nerd’s ludicrous statements, tsk, tsk, tsk…Johnny, Johnny, Johnny…Really, man? You think a heated argument between a Christian and some Muslims allows you to make a generalized statement about Islam? You just exposed yourself as the Islamophobe that you are dude!
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Hi
Converted to Islam a few years ago. Before that, i believed all the rubbish shamoun/wood/qureshi sprout. To my shame, i was muslim hating islamaphobe too. Somehow found myself on nouman ali khan explaining the quran, you tube video. Believed i would hear all the stuff about, killing all non-muslims, islam conquering world, men should marry pre-pubescent girls and then beat them, etc. To my surprise, khan preaches non of that stuff. Started watching more of his stuff and yasir qadhi as well as talking to some muslims. Realised all the stuff shamoun and pals saying was nothing what Islam says.
Anyway, coming to topic of discussion. Yet again i find islam/muslims tolerant, compassionate and christians are the intolerant haters.
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Jacob
Well done for making your own research on Islam and finally converting to Islam. I pray that, God continue to guide you on this right path.
Unfortunately, other Christians do not make their own research on all or most religions to search for truth but rely on lies by shamoun/wood/Qureshi/spencer/aayan ali hirsi/irshad manji/walid shoebat/ergun carner etc. who are not Islamic scholars and do not know Quranic Arabic.
I swear God, they are all liars to get money and favour from Christians and most of them are getting it. Sam Shamoun who Dr. James White says “has good knowledge of Islam” has no qualification in Islam, neither a qualification in Christianity or any other trade. He (Shamoun) was never referenced by Dr. White in his book on Islam like how a Christian scholar Graig Evans referenced Aayan Ali Hirsi who is not Islamic scholar in his book about Islam as a scholarly work.
Thanks.
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Hi, Johnny, please get in touch with me, here is my email address: sendmeanemailpls@aol.com.
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Lol – I was a born again charismatic evangelical Baptist for years. It is very convenient for Christians now to suggest I was never a Christian, but I was.
Hi Paul,
So, if you were a genuinely born again Christian (possessing the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; John 3:1-10, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; John 7:37-39), and following Arminian or RC theology, the Holy Spirit left you went you converted to Islam or before that, etc.), are you saying you believe there is a real Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person of the Trinity?
A Muslim is forced to deny that reality. So how do you explain the claim that you were a Christian, when in your theology and take on reality, there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit or Trinity or Deity of Christ or the death of Jesus on the cross as a powerful atonement, and resurrection from the dead?
I know we discussed this before, but it would be good to try and think more deeply about what was that experience?
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Ken we have discussed this subject ad nausum many many times before. You seem unable to accept I was a Christian for personal reasons of your own.
I was a committed Calvinist Christian just like you. I read through the Institutes of Christian Religion.
Now I am a Muslim. End of.
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Reading Calvin’s Institutes through does not mean you actually accepted all or most of what he wrote. How much of it did you accept at the time? Most Baptists only accept the “P” of the 5 points of Calvinism, in the way that Calvinists define them. (unless they are “Reformed Baptists”)
It seems it was some kind of intellectual and emotional and religious experience, but I was just trying to understand how you understand the spiritual aspect of it?
Did you have the Holy Spirit?
Romans 8:9 – “. . . if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. but whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ, does not belong to Him.”
John 7:37-39
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty,let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
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why is it so important for you to discuss this Ken?
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Someone who struggles with same-sex attraction – ssa is not sin in itself in Christianity either, as long as one realizes that it is also a perversion from God’s original design of one man and one woman in marriage (Adam and Eve – Genesis 1-2).
Lustful fantasies in the mind and heart is the root of the sins of fornication (sex before marriage), and adultery – Matthew 5:28, Colossians 3:5
The problem is that most people are not making a distinction between true ssa and the lustful fantasies in the mind/heart and the acting out of it.
Another problem is the political agenda of the homosexuals in the west who want to destroy civilization and society by forcing the rest of us to accept their perversions as normal.
But there are many humble and quiet homosexuals who are not trying to change culture and history and civilization, and yet struggle with their attractions and temptations. There are also many homosexuals who do their sins in private, live together as “married couples”, and don’t have a political agenda.
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why is it so important to discuss?
Because it shows the inconsistently of claiming one was a born-again Christian, yet also not even believing that there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity.
It is all just a religious, ritualistic, moralistic, emotional, intellectual experience that you exchanged for another religious, ritualistic, moralistic, emotional, intellectual experience.
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So you care so much about my former beliefs and their ‘inconsistency’ that you take the trouble to come on my blog and point them out to me?
What drives a person to do that?
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I am not trying to be snarky or mean. I am asking questions on a principle / issue level. There is no ad hominem argumentation in what I am trying to get at.
You spend most of your time attacking Christianity and use liberal scholarship and you sincerely think you are pointing out inconsistencies. I see no problem with asking you to examine your arguments and presuppositions also.
What drives you to be so motivated to attack Christianity?
– what drives you to so concentrate and emphasize both extreme liberalism and moderate liberal scholarship, but they both have foundational worldview presuppositions that make their arguments inconsistent when applied to Islam and the Qur’an.
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good questions Ken thanks for bringing them up on my blog.
WHAT A MINUTE! lol you have asked the same ill-conceived fundamentalist-type questions year after year. We have discussed them ad nauseum. I have answered them fully dozens of times.
You appear to be no longer Mr Reasonable and have become Mr Troll.
Are you bored today? Did you vote? Who did you vote for?
.
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Sorry you are so offended. I will stop on that line of argumentation for now. I am not meaning to be a troll, etc.
We had a primary on March 1. I can tell you who I did NOT vote for – I did NOT vote for Donald Trump. He is a very very bad character and does not have the stability and/or character to be President. He is a con-man and very immoral and has changed his views so many times and compromises on everything to make ‘business deals”. The left wing media and politicians and culture in the west will fry him to a crisp if he gets the Republican nomination. And unfortunately, all the things that conservatives and Republicans usually get blamed for or attacked on, and pegged with (racisim, bigotry, rich and materialistic, loud mouthed, potty mouthed, immoral (many adulteries, etc.), hatred, fear of foreigners, wars, anti-intellectualism) – he is the ultimate example of that terrible part of our western American culture. He is the kind of American that people from other countries and cultures see most as the bad, prejudiced part of our culture.
Lots of uneducated and trailer-park living citizens (red-necks, racists, xenophobes, uneducated) along with some others who are not like that, but putting patriotism first (build a wall against illegal immigration, fight ISIS, etc.) but are not discerning at all, and some Christians and pastors are backing him, which is shameful and mystifying to me. He is what most foreigners already think about American anyway. I am very sad to see him get such a following.
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all that said I bet you still voted Republican as virtually all other evangelicals tend to do
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Ken Temple
You said;
why is it so important to discuss?
Because it shows the inconsistently of claiming one was a born-again Christian, yet also not even believing that there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity.
I say;
HOLY SPIRIT?
I was born a Muslims and so are all my families from generations and I never became a Christian to claim Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity God.
All my family never ever converted to Christianity but we have some families of mine who married Christians and so we have a lot of Christians in our families and we go on well and we do discuss religion with respect. I have Christian families i.e. cousins, aunts, uncles etc.
-Ken, is it not possible to believe in the Holy Spirit as a 3rd person of the Trinity God and later realized it is illogical and reject it?
-Apart from “belief” which you are not the only person who possess “belief” is there any evidence to prove your Holy Spirit is “Holy” but not “Unholy”?. I ask this because every religion believes in “Holy Spirit” but in different way.
Muslims believe the Spirit of God is with them but that spirit is not God Himself. Jews believe in the Holiest of the Holiest in Jerusalem.
Idol worshipers believe in the Holy Spirit because, before they perform their healings or other services, they have to perform rituals to call the Holy Spirit in them to achieve that objectives.
Christians have to speak in tongues and some will dance and sing and get the gift of Holy Spirit.
Sikh’s, Hindus, Buddhist etc. all have Holy Spirit. So this Holy Spirit is not exclusive to Christians alone. Before Christianity, Idol worshipers invoke the Holy Spirit in them to perform their rituals.
God no where in the Bible clearly said to Abraham, Moses or any prophet that “I am the 3rd person of Trinity”
Everyone who believes in God believes the spirit of God is with him and so it is not exclusive to Christians alone to have the spirit of God. We do not believe the spirit of God is God Himself.
When one is having inclination towards sin, one spirit will tell him not to commit the sin and another is telling him to commit the sin.
These 2 spirits are there with every human being whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, idol worshiper, etc. any human being.
Some idol worshipers will rush to help a drowning person or someone in trouble but could decide not to help. Ken, do you mean to tell me the spirit that urge them to do the right thing is not Holy?
THIS HOLY SPIRIT IS IN EVERYBODY AND THAT IS WHAT HELP PEOPLE TO COVERT TO THE RIGHT OR WRONG RELIGION.
Muslim or Jew will think of committing adultery but a spirit within them will whisper to them to stop and follow God command. Is that spirit not Holy? because they are not born-again Christian?
Paul Williams said he is living clean as a Muslim. You may believe him or not. If it is true, is the spirit controlling him not Holy? because he is no more a born-again Christian?
God help those who help themselves. If you keep searching and researching for truth with open heart without “Jesus died for your sins” at the back of your mind, the Holy Spirit will help you to the right path instead of thinking you have the right “Holy Spirit” without proof but belief. We all have belief but we need proof, truth, consistency, logicalities and rationalities.
Thanks.
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Ken, is it not possible to believe in the Holy Spirit as a 3rd person of the Trinity God and later realized it is illogical and reject it?
Yes, but that means that that person was not a Christian. He may have had a religious experience and thought he was a Christian, but was not. For someone who leaves the Christian faith and then becomes a Muslim, yes, they sincerely think it was wrong. But it also means they should realize it means they were not a Christian in the way that the NT defines what a Christian is – someone who has the Spirit of God in them in a personal spiritual relationship with God.
John 7:37-39
Romans 8:9
Ephesians 1:13-14
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Galatians 4:6
John 3:1-8
Romans 5:5
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God help those who help themselves.
you mean
“God helps those who help themselves.”
That is what you have in man-made religion (like Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.)
You have to first work hard enough to be good that maybe someday God will accept you, Inshallah.
That is the opposite of the gospel of grace – you cannot help yourself. You have to first realize you are a sinner, helpless, on your way to hell, condemned, evil, and then repent and turn to Christ to save you from your sin. see Romans 5:5-11; Ephesians 2:1-10 Good works follow as results of grace, not the cause of grace. Religion has it backwards.
Yours is just “religion” (man made).
True Christianity is not “religion”; rather it is a real spiritual relationship with the living God.
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Ken Temple
You said;
That is the opposite of the gospel of grace – you cannot help yourself. You have to first realize you are a sinner, helpless, on your way to hell, condemned, evil, and then repent and turn to Christ to save you from your sin. see Romans 5:5-11; Ephesians 2:1-10 Good works follow as results of grace, not the cause of grace. Religion has it backwards.
I say;
What wicked God is that, who will create his creation and condemned them to hell until they believe he is a man that he said he is not? and also did not tell his earlier prophets that he is “3 persons 1 God”, then put his earlier prophets to hell.
God grace is for everybody but not for Christians alone., especially someone who always goes for the truth but not blind faith.
It is a wicked God who will give grace to Christians alone. A Jew, Hindu, idol worshipers and any one has the grace of God and through his search for the true God, can convert to the true religion.
Those converting to Christianity, did not have grace before converting? You do not have to be Christian to have the “grace” or God. Any one has a grace of God but it is up to him to choose the right religion through research and truth rather than blind faith, illogical and irrational thinking decided by some people call Church Fathers.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Ken, is it not possible to believe in the Holy Spirit as a 3rd person of the Trinity God and later realized it is illogical and reject it?
Yes, but that means that that person was not a Christian. He may have had a religious experience and thought he was a Christian, but was not. For someone who leaves the Christian faith and then becomes a Muslim, yes, they sincerely think it was wrong. But it also means they should realize it means they were not a Christian in the way that the NT defines what a Christian is – someone who has the Spirit of God in them in a personal spiritual relationship with God.
I say;
You said yes. That is what I need “Yes”. All that followed is your faith or belief but not proof, evidence, yardstick or truth.
You believe that person was never a Christian but you believed Nabeel Quraish who was not a Sunni Muslim was a good Muslim and you read and advertised his stupid book of lies. You see how double standard you are?
If somebody coverts from Christianity, then he was not a Christian, but if somebody coverts to Christianity, even if his former religion of Islam is doubt, he is a good Muslim for you to read and promote his stupid useless book and his lies.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
PAUL WILLIAMS CONVERTED FROM CHRISTIANITY TO ISLAM. OH HE IS NEVER A CHRISTIAN.
NABEEL QURAISH, A QADIANI(DOUBTFUL MUSLIM) IS A SUNNI MUSLIM WHO COULD HAVE GONE TO SYRIA AND JOIN ISIS.
READ HIS STUPID BOOK FULL OF LIES ABOUT ISLAM.
-Ken Temple.
Intellect. I am very, very sick with this double standards by Christians.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
True Christianity is not “religion”; rather it is a real spiritual relationship with the living God.
I say;
What spiritual relationship with the living God is that, when you do not follow God’s law or command like Jesus fell down to the ground and pray to the ONLY TRUE GOD who sent him(Jesus). Fast like Jesus, give charity, abstain from adultery, robbery, cheating, and any social vices and respect your parents and more laws to follow. Jihad(strive) to follow God law as much as you can and God is merciful for your repentance and His grace is reachable by anyone who follow the truth but not only Muslims or Christians alone.
You think a blood of Jesus can save you when Abraham, Moses and no prophet believed or knew about that.
God helps those who help themselves in searching for truth but not a blind faith in any shape or form.
Thanks.
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With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Ken thinks that he has the monopoly over having the spirit of truth , but as Intellect has pointed out, it is a universal phenomenon btw. There are many faith and tradition who claim it has the gift from the spirit of truth. Shamanism also works with spirit. In Chinese tradition (where I claim my ancestry from) they worship and seek spirit to guide and guard them in daily activity. As muslim I can distinguish that this whole experiences are wrong, those people may think that they have God spirit in them but in fact they just cooperate with misguided spirit, (the jinn, evil spirit).
How do we muslims know that a true Spirit of God working on people? (btw In Islam the spirit of God does mean God Himself Astaghfirullah, it could be Angels (Malaaikah) or God’s blessings (Rahmah) or God-given miracle (Karaamah)) We distinguish whether anyone has the spirit of truth by the following criteria:
If ones claim to have God’s spirit in them but do not meet those criterion, they certainly do not posses true relationship with the God, they may think they do but certainly they are deluded by the clever work of Satan.
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Ken Temple
You said;
For someone who leaves the Christian faith and then becomes a Muslim, yes, they sincerely think it was wrong. But it also means they should realize it means they were not a Christian in the way that the NT defines what a Christian is – someone who has the Spirit of God in them in a personal spiritual relationship with God.
I say;
The above is based on your belief, wishful thinking, religion etc. It is not the truth, yardstick, criteria accepted by all, proof or evidence but your bullying tactics to force others who do not believe what you believe to accept your belief.
We do not believe it is only Christians who have relationship with God on this earth. God do not discriminate anyone on this earth with His grace and relation, unless a person rejects it and not follow the truth, what is right, God’s command or laws.
Those who rejects the clear truth, usually end up following satan but God grace is still with them, if they can use it to convert to the true religion, that will be great for them.
I believe God’s grace is with an idol worshipers too but not Muslims, Christians and Jews alone. It is God’s grace in the idol worshiper that allow most of them to convert from idol worshiping. They had that grace of God when they were idol worshipers before converting.
They did not convert before getting God’s grace or mercy.
God helps those who help themselves and search for truth be it they are Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, idol worshipers etc.
God cannot be man is the yardstick or criteria accepted by all.
I can easily say those converting to Christianity were not the way their former religion defines what their former religion was. Will you buy that Ken?
You even go further to deny your own Christians as not Christians because you do not agree with them. Examples are Creflo A. Dollar, Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, Pastor Eddie Lee Long, Bill Clinton, Jack Van Impe, Donald Trump and his supporters who every body knows are wicked evangelical white Christians who want to return the US as the good old days, Joel Olsteen, T.D. Jake, etc.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
True Christianity is not “religion”; rather it is a real spiritual relationship with the living God.
I say;
Who tells you idol worshipers i.e. voodoo do not think they have a real spiritual relationship with the living God? without following God law.
Thanks.
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The NT describes it as a ‘religion’ in James
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Sufis think they have a real spiritual relationship with the living God.
In fact, when Muslims pray like how Jesus fell down to the ground, we think we have a real spiritual relationship with God by following the footsteps of Jesus Christ. When we fast, we can eat in our rooms but we know God is watching us, so we do not eat or have any intercourse but have real spiritual relationship with God.
The question is ever body is claiming to have a spiritual relatioship with God, but who is right? The yardstick is God is 1 and not a man and nothing is associated to Him and Ken will accept this.
Thanks.
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True that James uses the word for “religion” or “piety” in James 1:26-27, yes. In that sense, yes, in the context of what the book is talking about.
But in the sense of the great difference between other religions and Christianity, it is totally different and all together unique, in that true Christianity says you cannot seek to clean yourself up by your own power – a works righteousness religion – which is what Islam, Mormonism, JWs, Roman Catholicism has in common – external religions of rituals and deeds that one seeks to make one acceptable to God, which you can never do – you have to surrender to the grace of God and that God did the work of cleansing the sinner at the cross, proved by the Resurrection of Jesus from the dead; and confirmed by then the evidence of good works. Man’s religions have it backwards – works first, then salvation. Christianity says “grace first, then salvation, then good works are evidence of true faith and salvation.
James agrees and is talking about the evidence of true faith/religion/salvation.
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Ken, with respect, you do not know what you are talking about. Your ignorance of other religions is shocking.
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Sufis think they have a real spiritual relationship with the living God.
“think” is the key word there. “assume” or “presume” or “hope”
Problem is that Islam itself is false, since it denies the Deity of Christ, the atonement, the Trinity, etc.
Jesus said, “no one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6
No one can know God the Father unless they repent (understand they are helpless sinners by nature and cannot save themselves and turn from sin and their sinfulness) and turn in faith to Al Masih and His powerful atonement and resurrection to save them, submitted to Jesus as Lord (God and boss) of your life. (Romans 3:24-26; 3:28; 4:1-16; 10:9-10)
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Yes Ken I think we all know what parts of the NT teach, but your understanding and knowledge of other religions is shockingly distorted. It does not give credence to your views.
Btw just some advice Ken: your tendency to preach in your comments is not particularly attractive
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Btw who or what is Al Masih? I only speak English and French.
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Temple says “you have to surrender to the grace of God”
That’s also called Islam, dude
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You even go further to deny your own Christians as not Christians because you do not agree with them. Examples are Creflo A. Dollar, Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, Pastor Eddie Lee Long, Bill Clinton, Jack Van Impe, Donald Trump and his supporters who every body knows are wicked evangelical white Christians who want to return the US as the good old days, Joel Olsteen, T.D. Jake, etc.
A list of heretics and adulterers and charlatans. They are not even Christians, because the Prosperity Gospel is not the gospel and not Biblical and evil greed tricking people that it is Christianity. (except Jack Van Impe may be a true believer, but I disagree with him, see below) T.D. Jakes (not Trinitarian), Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long are black prosperity teachers. Long has already been disgraced as a teenage boy molester, etc.
The only one who is a little different is Jack Van Impe – but his issues/emphasis is on end-times events, pre-tribulationism, and modern Israel. (which I also don’t agree with his take on that stuff), but it is wrong to lump him in what those other heretics and adulterers.
B. Clinton and Trump are just serial adulterers and political manipulators of the non-thinking masses. B. Clinton to left wing;and Trump to right wingers who don’t think much.
There are good Evangelicals who want the “good old days” of morality – because abortion is murder and evil and wrong, and so it same sex marriage and homosexuality, pornography, etc. But they are not racists or prejudiced and genuinely want others to know about Christ, but they also want people to obey the laws and stop violating visa stays and border controls, etc.. Wanting security and the proper enforcement of the border is not wrong. The problem is the perception that minorities get and lumping everyone under one kind of person.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Sufis think they have a real spiritual relationship with the living God.
“think” is the key word there. “assume” or “presume” or “hope”
Problem is that Islam itself is false, since it denies the Deity of Christ, the atonement, the Trinity, etc.
Jesus said, “no one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6
No one can know God the Father unless they repent (understand they are helpless sinners by nature and cannot save themselves and turn from sin and their sinfulness) and turn in faith to Al Masih and His powerful atonement and resurrection to save them, submitted to Jesus as Lord (God and boss) of your life. (Romans 3:24-26; 3:28; 4:1-16; 10:9-10)
I say;
Think, Think, Think. Do you know what think means? Of course any religion thinks it has a real spiritual relationship with God including Trinitarianism.
Why think?
Because no religion has evidence or proof. Trinitarians do have prove that, God is in their presence. So many Christians and idol worshipers use evil spirit to heal, perform wonders and performing wonders can be done by satan and satanic spirits and so one cannot say his spirit is God.
Ken, your relationship with God is thinking by you because you do not have evidence to prove that spirit is God but not satan.
An idol worshiper can have good spirit to tell him to stop his idol worship and worship one God of Abraham. An evil spirit can insist to someone to keep believing the God of Abraham is “3 persons 1 God” even though it cannot be found in the Bible.
You said;
Jesus said, “no one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6
I say;
When Moses brought the Ten commandment to his people, there is nothing to indicate the above but all people will not go to God or the Father at that time except through Moses. Every prophet has his people not go to the Father or God except through that prophet but not Jesus.
Ken, this is a common ABC being learnt at kindergarten and a learned person like you must not bring this nonsense.
Thanks.
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We believe in surrender and submission to the true God, through Christ (Al Masih, Jesus the Messiah) ( of course you already know that Paul)
That is the true submission.
But in Islam, it is surrender to an Al-Jabbar (the enforcer tyrant who forces; also used in Arabic of cruel tyrant dictators like Saddam Hussein, Mubarak, Qaddafi, Hafez Al Assad and Bashar Al Assad) and the “Kheir ol Makareen” ( خیر المکارین = “the best deciever” / the best trickster) – the dictator who forces you to obey dry rules and rituals and externally emphasized laws.
Paul – preaching the gospel is part of the invitation (Da’wa) – don’t you believe in Da’wa ? دعوه ؟ / دعوت
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Ken I don’t read Arabic so why not stick to English?
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Of course thinking is good; right thinking based on Truth. “Your Word (the Bible) is Truth”
Jesus to the Father in John 17:17
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Jesus fully interpreted Moses’ laws properly in Matthew, chapters 5, 6, and 7 and Mark 7. Please read those whole chapters and meditate and think deeply about them.
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Ken Temple
You said;
No one can know God the Father unless they repent (understand they are helpless sinners by nature and cannot save themselves and turn from sin and their sinfulness) and turn in faith to Al Masih and His powerful atonement and resurrection to save them, submitted to Jesus as Lord (God and boss) of your life. (Romans 3:24-26; 3:28; 4:1-16; 10:9-10)
I say;
What is “sinners by nature”? Does that mean any person like babies born without sin are sinners except they believe Jesus died for their sins?
Moses and no prophet of God taught this to his followers and so it must have come from satan. It is all over the Bible that God is 1, only and alone and no single verse that says “God is 3 persons 1 God”
It is only a wicked God who will create us with sinful nature and holds us responsible for the nature without we committing the sin. That type of God might come from satan. To create you for a nature and punish you for that nature he created you for.
Thanks.
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Evangelicals usually vote Republican because of the issues of abortion and homosexuality, same sex marriage, etc. (all are morally evil sins, and should not be allowed in society or be promoted by government. Homosexuals are already free to sin with themselves in private if they want to – but it is only loving for Evangelicals and conservative Catholics to tell them they are wrong and need to repent), because Democrats approve of those sins and more. (militant atheism, skepticism, materialism, adulteries, pornography, Darwinian atheistic Evolution). Democrats lie to the minorities and immigrants and keep them enslaved to their free-handouts for their votes. Republicans believe the best way to improve life and economic status is through hard work and taking responsibility for yourself, not relying on government handouts. Republicans believe in defense and military response to evil regimes and “Islamic” (I realize other peaceful Muslims like you guys here and others don’t like that, nevertheless, those terrorists use Islamic texts and sources to justify their own actions) terrorists like Al Qaeda and ISIS, etc.
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Paul – I translated and transliterated. Why do Muslim speakers have lots of Arabic at beginning of every talk even in English?
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Ken Temple
You said;
We believe in surrender and submission to the true God, through Christ (Al Masih, Jesus the Messiah) ( of course you already know that Paul)
That is the true submission.
But in Islam, it is surrender to an Al-Jabbar (the enforcer tyrant who forces; also used in Arabic of cruel tyrant dictators like Saddam Hussein, Mubarak, Qaddafi, Hafez Al Assad and Bashar Al Assad) and the “Kheir ol Makareen” ( خیر المکارین = “the best deciever” / the best trickster) – the dictator who forces you to obey dry rules and rituals and externally emphasized laws.
Paul – preaching the gospel is part of the invitation (Da’wa) – don’t you believe in Da’wa ? دعوه ؟ / دعوت
I say;
Thou shall not lie. Said the Bible. Tell me what Muslim tells you that our God is tyrant.
This is what your tyrant God said in the Bible. I have proof and you do not have proof
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.
I have quotes that said Jesus is a deceiver.
Thanks.
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If you don’t teach a child right from wrong, etc., they naturally will only want their own way in selfishness and pride and being spoiled. They are naturally sinners – comes from the roots of selfish and prideful thoughts and motives in the heart and mind.
You have to realize that is your nature and turn to Christ to save you.
Mark 7:14-23
The Heart of Man
14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand:
15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
16 [If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”]
17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
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Luke 19:27 is about hell and final judgment. (see Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 20:10-20)
God has the right to judge at the day of judgment, which you also believe in.
You will also perish unless you repent. (Luke 13:1-5)
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Because what he’s sayin doesn’t gel in English so why not try a different language?
It might work there….or maybe not 😦
Ken your need to reinterpret words such as your insertion of bible into your quote from Johns Gospel and even the need to reinterpret the message of other religions so as to insert yours as superior by default is a missionary strategy that has been common place for centuries. Many learned Christians have moved beyond these parameters such as Dr Craig Considine, Pope Francis, Rowan Williams etc etc
It is only small minded missionaries who seek to maintain these old beliefs but this should be of no surprise to anyone who is a student of Church history as many “Saints” and “Reformers” held them as well such as Martin Luthers hatred for Prophet Muhammad and his Wives as well as Jews, Anabaptists, and Catholics. Did he have the HS when preaching and writing these things?
Tell me Ken based on your reasoning on who he is or is not an ex-Christian would you be willing to extend this criteria to ex-Muslims like Nabeel Qureshi? or ex-Atheists like David Wood as never being truly adherents of their respected ideologies? I mean Nabeel believed in Tawheed when he prayed in the Masjid for guidance where he later said that the “true” Christian God answered his prayers eventhough he has now said they are not the same deity? or what about ol’Dave who has admitted to having mental health issues while an Atheist?
Will you be consistent? I have my doubts
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Ken Temple
You said;
Republicans believe in defense and military response to evil regimes and “Islamic” (I realize other peaceful Muslims like you guys here and others don’t like that, nevertheless, those terrorists use Islamic texts and sources to justify their own actions) terrorists like Al Qaeda and ISIS, etc.
I say;
You said here most times that Jesus has abolished theocracy. Republicans and evangelical Christians do not follow Jesus but being a theocratic state, using Bible to persecute others. Attacking others they deem evil even if the person is peaceful.
Saddam Hussein was peaceful with a Christian vice president before being attacked and killed by Republican theocratic state of America who has since produced vacuum in Iraq and created isis and more blood shed by being a theocratic state USA with wars on and killing Muslims.
Iran is now peaceful with Christians and a lot of Jews in Iran minding their business. The theocratic Republicans and their supporters want to attack Iran and kill Muslims.
You said;
Republicans believe in defense and military response to evil regimes and “Islamic”
I say;
Very dishonest of you. You make me sick with your double standards. You consistently accuse Muslims of military response of evil regimes of the crusaders killing Jews and Muslims but today you support Christians for killing Muslims you think are isis.
If the evangelicals were sincere, why not vote against Israeli settlement on Palestinian lands and killing Palestinians? but instead supporting Israel to kill and kill till it exterminate all Palestinians. What cruel evangelical Christians are these?
Thanks.
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Ken Temple, if “good works are evidence of true faith and salvation” why do you insist on getting on other people’s nerves with non-sensical preaching?
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. . . extend this criteria to ex-Muslims like Nabeel Qureshi? or ex-Atheists like David Wood as never being truly adherents of their respected ideologies?
My position is still consistent for two reasons – in Nabeel Qureshi’s case, he was an Ahmadi Muslim (which many Muslims here have even said he was not even a Muslim at all, like Mormonism is to Christianity). Anyway, there is no doctrine of the Holy Spirit or regeneration in the heart which changes the heart/soul of a person in Islam. I understand that you can believe that you have some kind of connection to God spiritually – for example in the Qur’anic phrase, “He is closer to us that our jugular vein”. that is fine, according to Islamic beliefs, but it is not the same as regeneration / being born again / the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it (Islam) is even more foreign to the concept of the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Tri-Une (Trinitas-Unitas) God.
Even beyond that, many Muslims and Islamic scholars admit that one cannot “know” Allah personally. the main goal is to obey Allah as a slave to a Master ( Abdulallah = the slave/servant of Allah), whereas the goal in Christianity is to know God personally and grow in that knowledge and become more and more conformed to the character of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:7-14; Romans 8:28-29; 2 Cor. 3:18)
In the case of atheism, one can be a former atheist and a sincere one, since there is no Holy Spirit at all in that belief, not even acknowledging that there is a Creator-God.
So, with all due respect, those are not very good examples and they are not parallel. So I am not being inconsistent.
Also, I don’t doubt that Paul W. SINCERELY had some kind of emotional, religious, and intellectual experience; but without the Spirit of God, that is all it was.
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Ken Temple
You said;
If you don’t teach a child right from wrong, etc., they naturally will only want their own way in selfishness and pride and being spoiled. They are naturally sinners – comes from the roots of selfish and prideful thoughts and motives in the heart and mind.
You have to realize that is your nature and turn to Christ to save you.
I say;
You are absolutely wrong, Totally wrong, ignorantly wrong and philosophically wrong. It is good to teach children to do the right thing but when they grow, they decide for themselves in what way they want. It is common to hear or see that, this person was from a good family who taught him all about goodness but now look, he is an armed robber, he is a drug addict, he/she is a prostitute etc. Despite being trained at home for righteousness people grow up and choose what they want.
On the other hand, a child can grow from a bad family who are teaching their children prostitution, drug, stealing but the child when he grows to know the right and bad, will choose to be good and a moral upright person with a good religion.
Prophet Abraham when he was young, he saw what his parents and people are worshiping but he and his nephew, Lut did not buy into that but warn them to stop what they are doing. Our prophet Mohammed also as a child did not support the idol his people are worshiping.
A child has no sin, because to be honest he does not know what he was doing like you cannot Ken tell me whether you are thinking of having sex with someone’s wife or stealing a money when you were a toddler.
Islam is right to hold a person responsible for his sin when he is matured and knows what sin means and the West has adopted Islam and rejected Christianity for not prosecuting anyone they deem child.
A child can hit you with an object but will not know what he is doing and Islam will not call it sin and the west will not call it sin except the wicked Christian or Trinitarian God who will hold a toddler responsible for what he does not know. It is a wicked Christian or Trinitarian God indeed.
Your Nabeel Quraish, whom you cherish so much claimed to be a Muslim and was taught by his parents to be good Muslim but he later decided to convert to Christianity and so he has changed and did not remain “selfish Islamic”. Nabeel changed and so he might not be born “selfish” or “Muslim” as you wrongfully taught all people are born selfish and sinners even though Nabeel was taught to be sinner, selfish and Muslim, he changed.
So, we are not responsible for our NATURE, NATURE, NATURE, please for God sake we are not responsible for our nature no matter how it is but we are responsible for our actions and not obeying God law.
NATURALLY SINNERS?
Please withdraw this statement “naturally sinners”. There is nothing like “naturally sinners” unless one chooses to sin and becomes a sinner when he sins. He can be forgiven as Jesus said and forgive us our sins.
So sin is not natural but an act committed by an individual. You do not become a sinner until you commit the sin.
It is a lie for a God to call someone an adulterer when the person never commits adultery. There is nothing like “natural adultery” punishable to all mankind or “natural robbery” punishable to children even though they do not commit robbery or adultery.
What is nature
na·ture
/ˈnāCHər/
1. the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.
“the breathtaking beauty of nature”
synonyms: the natural world, Mother Nature, Mother Earth, the environment; wildlife, flora and fauna, the countryside; the universe, the cosmos
“the beauty of nature”
•the physical force regarded as causing and regulating these phenomena.
“it is impossible to change the laws of nature”
2. the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.
“helping them to realize the nature of their problems”
synonyms: essence, inherent/basic/essential qualities, inherent/basic/essential features, character, complexion More
NATURE, NATURE, NATURE please nature does not mean SINNER please spare us this because it is frightening us from no where.
Nabeel Quraish, the one you cherish could not have changed when he was a toddler. He had to help himself as I said God helps those who help themselves. I think he chose the wrong way by following David Wood and it is just like a young Christian converting and learning Islam from Anjem Choudry or Al Baghdadi of isis.
Thanks.
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I say;
You said here most times that Jesus has abolished theocracy.
True.
Republicans and evangelical Christians do not follow Jesus but being a theocratic state,
False
using Bible to persecute others.
NEVER (Roman Catholics did in the middle Ages, but not modern era Republicans)
Attacking others they deem evil even if the person is peaceful.
NEVER
Saddam Hussein was peaceful with a Christian vice president before being attacked and killed by Republican theocratic state of America who has since produced vacuum in Iraq and created isis and more blood shed by being a theocratic state USA with wars on and killing Muslims.
Admittedly, that was a big mistake given what we know now. But it was not by theocracy, rather it was based on the sincere believe that S. Hussein was planning to use weapons of mass destruction and acting like he had them, because he was giving that impression to Iran from attacking him. (leftover attitudes from the Iran-Iraq war of 1980-1988.)
Yes, it created something very bad. But I don’t think ISIS would have happened if Obama had negotiated for a enough soldiers to have stayed to keep the terrorists back and stop the criminals. Even most Sunnis in Anbar province and other areas agreed with that when Al Qaeda got too harsh under Abu Mosab Al Zarqawi, etc.
The Shiite controlled government was not fair to the Sunnis and that is what created a lot of the hatred and vengeance now. It is more of an internal Islamic dispute – Sunnis vs. Shiite, than anything else.
I sincerely grieve for all the innocent Muslim people that have suffered in that conflict.
Iran is now peaceful with Christians and a lot of Jews in Iran minding their business.
Problem is we don’t know what the ruling Shiite Mollahs (Not the Iranian people) might do in the future.
The theocratic Republicans and their supporters want to attack Iran and kill Muslims.
NO!! All they want to do is to make sure the real Theocratic Shiite government does not use a nuclear bomb to seek to bring in the Mehdi (the 12th Imam, right now hidden).
Who knows what they will do, given Ahmadi-Nejad and others crazy talk?
Even Saudis, Jordan and other Sunnis are worried.
You said;
Republicans believe in defense and military response to evil regimes and “Islamic”
I say;
Very dishonest of you.
Not nice of you. I was very up front and honest and about what Republicans believe – and if you also believe that Al Qaeda and ISIS and Taliban, etc are wrong, then you should be able to see that. My statement was not about peaceful Muslims.
You make me sick with your double standards.
not respectful of you at all.
You consistently accuse Muslims of military response of evil regimes of the crusaders killing Jews and Muslims but today you support Christians for killing Muslims you think are isis.
Where do you get that from? I am talking only about real ISIS in Syria, Iraq, and Al Qaeda types. Since you guys also say they are crazy criminals, why did you accuse me of dishonesty and double standards?
If the evangelicals were sincere, why not vote against Israeli settlement on Palestinian lands and killing Palestinians? but instead supporting Israel to kill and kill till it exterminate all Palestinians. What cruel evangelical Christians are these?
No.
If the Palestinians (like Hamas and Hezbollah of Lebanon) would stop doing terrorism, then all the problems would stop.
But they never accepted even in 1948 the two state solution.
They kept attacking first.
They lost more and more land each time.
They lost Jerusalem in 1967.
Hamas quotes from the Sahih Hadith in their charter:
The trees and the rocks cry out: “there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him”
Fighting and killing the Jews will not stop until the day of resurrection.
Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim
Sahih Bukhari 4.52.177 we read: “Allah’s Apostle said, The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say: ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him’.”
“Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” — Sahih Muslim 6985
Thanks.
You are welcome.
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By the way, Saddam Hussein was not peaceful – he started the 8 year war with Iraq; gassed two whole villages of Kurds, killed the Arab Shiites in the south; drained the swamp and water and killed their centuries old habitat.
Also, he lied to the UN inspectors for 13 years, playing games of “cat and mouse”, etc. (1990-2003). He was very evil, and I have met many Muslims, speaking Arabic, calling him Al Jabbar (the tyrant dictator)
That is also one of the 99 names of Allah, and in the Qur’an in Surah 59:23 (translated in different English Qur’an translations as “The Enforcer”, “the Compeller”; “the Almighty” ( watered down the meaning there).
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Ken Temple
You said;
Also, I don’t doubt that Paul W. SINCERELY had some kind of emotional, religious, and intellectual experience; but without the Spirit of God, that is all it was.
I say;
Apart from belief which we all have and Paul Williams has but not you alone Ken, what evidence, proof, yardstick do you have to prove your experience of God is superior than us?
Please, I beg you I do not need preaching or quotation from the Bible. I want a yardstick, evidence or proof that your experience with God is not the evil spirit as can be seen from many Christian preachers and idol worshipers.
Benny Hinn and a lot of Christians can generate evil spirits to work for them.
Thanks.
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Sorry for typo.
Saddam Hussein started the 8 year war with Iran.
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Please withdraw this statement “naturally sinners”.
No.
We are by nature sinners and under the wrath of God, unless one repents and turns to Christ for salvation.
There is nothing like “naturally sinners” unless one chooses to sin and becomes a sinner when he sins.
no; you choose to sin because you are first a sinner in your heart/thoughts/nature. Words and deeds are the result of the attitudes/thoughts and motives first in the heart.
You sin because you are sinner by nature.
Even the Qur’an seems to agree with that:
Qur’an 16:61- If God would wipe out all sinners, there would be no one left on earth . . .
Qur’an Surah 96:6-7 The Clot: Man is rebellious
Qur’an Surah 16:61 The Bee: “. . . there would be no one left . . .”
Qur’an Surah 14:34 Abraham: “Man is an ingrate, wrongdoer”
Qur’an Surah 12:53 Joseph: “the human soul is an inciter to evil”
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I agree that Benny Hinn is a con-man, charlatan, evil, greedy, heretic, false teacher. It is possible he is operating with evil spirits.
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Ken Temple
You said;
No.
If the Palestinians (like Hamas and Hezbollah of Lebanon) would stop doing terrorism, then all the problems would stop.
I say;
There was several UN resolutions to send peace keepers to separate the 2 people and to document who is breaking the peace deal but the theocratic evangelical Christians of the USA will veto the resolution and allow Israel to continue to break the peace because their Bible said they should support genocide against the Palestinians preached by Jack Van Impe, John Hagee and the rest.
You said;
By the way, Saddam Hussein was not peaceful – he started the 8 year war with Iraq; gassed two whole villages of Kurds, killed the Arab Shiites in the south; drained the swamp and water and killed their centuries old habitat.
I say;
Saddam Hussein was not a threat to anyone at the time he was attacked by the theocratic evangelical Christians lead by Bush and Blair. According to UN he does not possess any weapons of mass destruction. There were Christians who were called one of the first Christians in Iraq and they were there for centuries with Muslims including their vice president and no isis.
The wicked evangelical Christians created isis by attacking and creating vacuum and now they are using isis led by Donald Trump to finish all Muslims. What a wicked people bringing their persecution of Catholics and Mormons and Black Slaves from Africa and native Americans back.
You said;
The theocratic Republicans and their supporters want to attack Iran and kill Muslims.
NO!! All they want to do is to make sure the real Theocratic Shiite government does not use a nuclear bomb to seek to bring in the Mehdi (the 12th Imam, right now hidden).
Who knows what they will do, given Ahmadi-Nejad and others crazy talk?
Even Saudis, Jordan and other Sunnis are worried.
I say;
Israel is a theocratic state called itself “The Jewish State” and has nuclear weapons and the evangelical Christians are helping it to persecute the Palestinians and exterminate them and pave way to Armageddon for the Jews to convert to Christianity.
THE BRUTAL DICTATOR IN THE MIDDLE EAST TODAY IS GENERAL AL SISI KILLING ANYONE WHO DARES SPEAK AGAINST HIM.
Why will the evangelical Christians not vote for attack on Egypt to force general Al Sisi out? Wicked evangelical Christians who always kill others for their whims and caprice.
Thanks.
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Saddam Hussein was not a threat to anyone at the time . . .
except for the Kurds in the North, and the Shiites in the South, both Muslims; and Iran to the east, also Muslims.
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It is a shame that over the years Ken has been commenting on Blogging theology he has obsessively tried to discredit the faith I had as a Christian. This suggests a certain insecurity and even immaturity.
This subject is clearly of great importance to Ken. Why is this?
I suggest two possibilities:
i) the mere fact that I was a committed born-again Christian threatens his faith. How could such a Christian leave the faith and embrace Islam? In Ken’s world-view this just should not happen.
or maybe
2) my continued online presence as an ex-Christian now Muslim believer causes problems for Christian evangelism. I know where the bodies are buried, so to speak. I know the Achilles heal. And I am not afraid to make them known.
But either way Ken is rattled and has demonstrates a persistent need to discredit my erstwhile faith.
My advise to Ken: it is time for you to lay off my past and consider a special word for God has for you (and others like you):
O People of the Book! Do not go to excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for God is only one God: Glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
Holy Quran 4: 171
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Ken Temple
You said;
no; you choose to sin because you are first a sinner in your heart/thoughts/nature. Words and deeds are the result of the attitudes/thoughts and motives first in the heart.
You sin because you are sinner by nature.
Even the Qur’an seems to agree with that:
Qur’an 16:61- If God would wipe out all sinners, there would be no one left on earth . . .
Qur’an Surah 96:6-7 The Clot: Man is rebellious
Qur’an Surah 16:61 The Bee: “. . . there would be no one left . . .”
Qur’an Surah 14:34 Abraham: “Man is an ingrate, wrongdoer”
Qur’an Surah 12:53 Joseph: “the human soul is an inciter to evil”
I say;
The Quran never said “we are sinners by nature”
All that you quoted never said “we are sinners by nature”. Do not bring your Trinitarian perception in Islam and to the Quran.
It means, after knowing right and wrong, man is bound to sin and will be forgiven when he sincerely repent but not with the blood of God or the blood of man. It does not mean human beings are sinners by nature.
God created us so that after knowing right and wrong we have the characteristics to sin like our Adams and Eve but one is not a sinner until he sins. So we are not sinners by nature.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Saddam Hussein was not a threat to anyone at the time . . .
except for the Kurds in the North, and the Shiites in the South, both Muslims; and Iran to the east, also Muslims.
I say;
So, the evangelical Christians have to vote for war against him because he is a tyrant. General Al-Sisi of Egypt is now a cruel tyrant than Saddam Hussein. He kills anyone who dare challenge him, He shoots and kill any demonstrators.
Will the hypocrite and dishonest evangelical Christians vote for Trump to go to war and topple General Al-Sisi of Egypt? they are calling him their(evangelical Christians) ally because he is killing Muslims and protecting Israel. What a wicked evangelical Christians of the USA who will kill Catholics, Mormons, Native Indians, Black Slave from Africa and now Muslims and some Christians in Palestine for their whims and caprice.
When the evangelical Christians attacked saddam because he was a tyrant according to Ken Temple, Hosni Mubarak was a big tyrant in the middle east than him(Saddam) but they call him their ally because he is killing Muslims for them.
Thanks.
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Ken what would it take to convince you that when someone says “yeah i used to be a….and i was very devout until i realised….)?
Your response to me Ken was nothing more than a reiteration of your previous statements. I disagree with them not only the grounds that you have provided no real reason beyond conjecture but also that you as it were exempt yourself from the proceedings. How can someone believe so sincerely that they are born again, check all the necessary boxes as to what one needs to believe but end up not being born again. How can anyone know whether or not they have been “saved” if faith and virtueous living are not enough?
How can even you know you are “saved” Ken? Maybe you like Paul had some “Spiritual experience of God” but are not truly a Christian?
Furthermore where on earth did Jesus teach any of this claptrap? Is there a gnostic Gospel I am unaware of since this teaching sounds like something from the Gospel of Thomas rather than the Injeel.
“You know what you know, but you might not know. How then do you know? You don’t. But we know and we know what you know because you are like us that is until your not in which case you never knew at all, and we always knew that, so just believe you do innit and give us your cash in the tin.” – Evangelicalism
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Ken Temple
You said;
I agree that Benny Hinn is a con-man, charlatan, evil, greedy, heretic, false teacher. It is possible he is operating with evil spirits.
I say;
Benny’s spirit can be evil, yours can be evil, mine can be evil, other churches spirit can be evil, idol worshipers spirit can be evil.
We cannot use our belief or scripture to determine the true spirit as you continue to do over and over. To determine the truth we have to agree to something in common as a yardstick we all agree.
These are my yardstick
-No one has seen the creator
-The creator is powerful.
Anyone who was beaten to death is not the creator and any one who takes him as creator is seeing an evil spirit.
Unless you can prove you have seen the creator or accept the creator of all things is not powerful.
Thanks.
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I think i’m getting one of those headaches again 😛
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When the evangelicals get rattled then their true nature comes out. They really do suffer from Total Depravity! LOL!! This supremist mentalty, where anyone who turns away from Christianity was not Really a True christian. But if anyone converts from another religion then they were truly part of that religion until they found Jesus, such as the Ahmedi Qureshi. He was never a Muslim, just like my sister who became a Jahova’s Witness is not considered christian by Ken. But the evangelicals do not use equal scales and the same standards. I have the same problem when speaking to these evangelicals. They will not accept I was a believing, committed baptist, before God blessed me with the truth of Islam.
Also, note the double standards used by ken. When bad christians such as jimmy swaggart, dollar, long trump are mentioned , he swiftly distance them from his faith by saying they are not christians and are not following the bible. Yet when he mentions isis and al-qaeda he is desperate to link them to Islamic texts. “nevertheless,those terrorists use islamic texts and sources to justify their own actions..” Well ken, by the same standards…the above mentioned christians use biblical texts to justify their actions.
Oh and lets not forget the shameless supremist re-writting of history. When the middle-eastern brown folk bomb civilians then it”s because they are evil and are following their evil book. But when we Americans and her allies bomb then it’s because we are good and do it out of love. This is christian love for you.
But people who think and see through this hypocrisy will come to the truth, like i did and God willing my mother is thinking about Islam as well as my JW sister. Pray for them.
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Jacob
InshaAllah, they will convert. Evangelicals of the USA are making me sick. Yes, my friend Temple will always mention Quran and link it with isis and Al Qaida, Call Paul Williams never a Christian but will defend Nabeel Quraish as former sunni Muslim who would have joined isis to fight, call Allah as wicked but when I present where Jesus will kill anyone who will not accept him as King, Ken will wrongly say it is in the day of judgement.
In the day of judgement every body knows God is King and God will not have enemies in the day of judgement because anyone has realized the truth then.
Ken Temple will say it is the day of judgement. Then Jesus do not understand the day of judgement when he said;
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.
A dictator like General Al Sisi of Egypt is the ally of the evangelical Christians and Saudi Arabia who also have some human right records is the ally of the USA but Iran which has more Jews and Christians are the target of the evangelical Christians because they cannot use Iran to attack another country. They cannot use Lebanon to attack any country and so they always help Israel to attack Lebanon and kill Muslims and Christians and will veto any peace deal until it is in favor of Israel.
Jack Van Impe, John Hagee etc. wicked Armageddon
Thanks.
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No Paul, I am not rattled, nor threatened. If you sincerely thought you were a Christian that is fine.
You don’t seem to see the logic of the reality that if you are now a Muslim, and Islamic doctrine does not even believe in the Holy Spirit (3rd person of the Trinity) or the concept of regeneration (John 3:1-8; 7:37-39), then that means you were not a born-again Christian, by definition, if Islam is right as you now believe.
I appreciate you allowing me to dialogue and debate with you and others here.
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O People of the Book! Do not go to excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for God is only one God: Glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
Holy Quran 4: 171
One of the clearest verses that proves Islam is wrong, since it denies the Deity of Christ and the Trinity, and the eternal Sonship of Christ.
The Arabic does not actually read “Trinity” ثالوث , but “three” ثلاثه . the next phrase says “for God only one God” – funny how Allah was ignorant of what the doctrine of the Trinity actually is, which affirms that “there is only ONE God”.
But it does affirm that Christ is “the Word of His (of God” (kalimat’allah = کلمه الله ) and “a spirit from Him”
A spirit from God (روح من الله ) . Seems they got that from John 1:1-5; 1:14
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born again means being born anew by the Spirit of God, the 3rd person of the Trinity, and being regenerated, changed on the inside into a new creature.
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature, the old is passed away, the new has come.” 2 Cor. 5:17
Jesus said, “unless one is born again from above by the Spirit of God, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven” – John 3:3-8
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Do you agree that everyone eventually sins – whatever the age is, 5 or 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 or 14? (selfishness, bullying, cheating on a test, disrespecting parents, sinful lusting, sinful anger, arrogance, etc.) ?
Qur’an Surah 96:6-7 The Clot: Man is rebellious
Qur’an Surah 16:61 The Bee: “. . . there would be no one left . . .”
Qur’an Surah 14:34 Abraham: “Man is an ingrate, wrongdoer”
Qur’an Surah 12:53 Joseph: “the human soul is an inciter to evil”
if so, where does that sinfulness come from? Why has not anyone (except Jesus) been free from sin?
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Hey Paul,
Your online presence is actually a good thing; because you allow such good and open discussions in the com boxes, and opportunities to present the other side.
so, rather than a threat, it is great thing.
thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
One of the clearest verses that proves Islam is wrong, since it denies the Deity of Christ and the Trinity, and the eternal Sonship of Christ.
I say;
Once again you are making me mad Ken. Who tells you that the Quran believes in the Deity of Christ? You believed in the Deity of Christ and we do not. What proof do you have apart from your believe that Jesus is God?
Jesus never said “I am God, worship me”, “I am 3 persons 1 God”, “I am Trinity” etc. It is not in the Bible, how do you expect Trinity to be in the Quran?
Trinity is not in the Bible so the Quran did not define any Trinity but it said do not say 3 for God is not 3 and you Ken is not the only Trinitarian but Rastafarians and a lot of others are Trinitarians with different persons and the Quran is cleverly addressing all of you.
Christians themselves do not understand Trinity from the 1st century till today and Arians, Ebionites and rest were killed and persecuted by Trinitarians. Today Unitarian Christians, Jehovah Witness and more Christian scholars do not understand and believe in Trinity except Trinitarians alone.
How can Quran get something wrong when it was defined by men at councils upon councils?
The Quran did not define Trinity but warn against any 3 persons as God including the Rastafarian Haile Selaissie and Ken Temple’s Trinity.
Trinity as Mormons affirms there is only 1 God but multiple persons but Trinitarian God is limited to 3 persons. Do not limit God to 3 persons so that one God can generate the other God but the other God cannot generate the other God which renders God without all His attributes.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
The Arabic does not actually read “Trinity” ثالوث , but “three” ثلاثه . the next phrase says “for God only one God” – funny how Allah was ignorant of what the doctrine of the Trinity actually is, which affirms that “there is only ONE God”.
I say;
Christians from the 1st century till today except Trinitarians who are funny to think they are the only Christians agreed with the Quran that Trinity 3 persons are not 1 God.
Thanks.
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You said;
Do you agree that everyone eventually sins – whatever the age is, 5 or 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 or 14? (selfishness, bullying, cheating on a test, disrespecting parents, sinful lusting, sinful anger, arrogance, etc.) ?
Qur’an Surah 96:6-7 The Clot: Man is rebellious
Qur’an Surah 16:61 The Bee: “. . . there would be no one left . . .”
Qur’an Surah 14:34 Abraham: “Man is an ingrate, wrongdoer”
Qur’an Surah 12:53 Joseph: “the human soul is an inciter to evil”
if so, where does that sinfulness come from? Why has not anyone (except Jesus) been free from sin?
I say;
Once again Ken, do not bring your Trinitarian thinking into Islam please. No where the above said or meant “we are sinners by nature”
In Islam one is responsible for any sin when he knows right and wrong and is matured. Scholars say when he/she reaches puberty.
Before then he/she is not responsible for sin and when he/she dies he/she is not going to be held responsible for sin. So in Islam we are not born sinners and do not need the blood of Jesus or any one as a detergent to wash our sins.
We are responsible for our sins unless we sincerely repent and Christians also when they sin will not say “oh Jesus has already paid for my sin” but follow Islamic doctrine and sincerely repent.
Sincerely repentance has won hands down over the blood of Jesus Christ because Christian cannot do without sincerely repentance as Muslims.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
if so, where does that sinfulness come from? Why has not anyone (except Jesus) been free from sin?
I say;
In Islam, so many young people who do not reach the age of maturity have died sinless, and all prophets of God are the same and God protects them from sin as a yardstick for us.
According to the Bible Jesus insulted some one as dog. I do not know why that is not sin as you define sin as anger, selfishness, bullying, cheating on a test, disrespecting parents, sinful lusting, sinful anger, arrogance, etc.) ?
In Islam some of your above synonyms are not sin i.e. anger. If someone slaps me just for nothing, I have the right to be angry and it is not a sin.
Thanks.
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Muhammad asked for forgiveness of his sins three times in the Qur’an.
The Quran identifies Muhammad as a sinner – see Surah 40:55, 48:2, and 47:19
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ذنوب – zunub or thunub – word for sin in those verses.
used 37 times and about others sins. (including those 3 times about Muhammad’s sins)
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You do not have to sin before you ask God for forgiveness. We do ask God for forgiveness five times a day when we pray and it does not mean we are sinners. We need God grace and mercy and have to be obeying his laws and pray. Jesus fell down and pray to God in the Bible, does that means Jesus is sinner? Jesus said Our Father and forgive us our sins in the Lords prayer. Does that mean Jesus is sinner?
Jesus prayed to God and asks God for forgiveness.
Ken Temple stop worshiping man Jesus and repent to Islam. We will accept you and train you to become our Imam like Imam John Ederer and Imam Joe Bradford. One has memorized the Quran and some hadith and fluent in classical Quran Arabic and teach some Arabs Arabic.
Not this liar Nabeel who is not sunni Muslim but claim he is a sunni Muslim and would have gone to Syria and fight for isis and you Ken is hailing him as a good convert from Islam to Christianity who cannot recite Al Fatiha.
Thanks.
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Jesus was testing the racial arrogance of the Jewish disciples – testing them to see if they learned the lesson of what He taught them earlier. He only called the Canaanite woman a dog to test the disciples, and her. She passed, because she persisted and did not complain – she realized she was a sinner and needed Jesus help and called Him “Lord” (yahweh, God, boss) and “Son of David”
See Mark 7:14-23 – on what true cleanliness is – in the heart; yet the heart speaks about evil thoughts in the heart – like arrogance & pride – racial hatred and superiority comes from arrogance and pride.
In Mark 7:24-30, Jesus deliberately goes to Tyre and Sidon (today’s Lebanon) to encounter non-Jews and test the disciples to see if they learned the lesson of sin in the heart (racial prejudice and pride and arrogance). They failed the test. (send her away) but she passed.
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Trinitarian Christian will always defends his indefensible and attack other religion like a Lion attacking an antelope. Since when did insult becomes test? You are a hypocrite and dishonest fellow and most who comment here has realized your dishonesty.
Honestly you make me sick. If Prophet Mohammed were to call someone dog, it would have been a front page in evangelical Christian lexicon. Look at how he is defending insults. Insults is insults but not test and can never ever be test.
If I insult you as dog or pig and later said it was test, would you be happy? Most people will not be happy for anyone including God to call them pig or dog as a test.
God test us as Muslim in so many ways but never insults us as pigs or dogs. Because we are humans not pigs or dogs. God himself do not want to be called man because he said He is not a man in the Bible. God and Man are different beings,
To say God is man you lowered God. To say a woman is dog or pig you lowered her being and it cannot be a test.
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Ken
Regarding your interpretation of the story of Jesus and Canaanite woman, do you have any evidence for this interpretation? I don’t believe a fair reading of the story would conclude that Jesus was trying to make her realize her sinfulness as that is not what she said:
“Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” – Matthew 15:27b
Jesus said before this:
“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” – Matthew 15:26b
Jesus here is referring to the children as the Jews and herself as a Gentile as a dog since this kind of xenophobia was common at the time, i suppose a modern example would be the suit wearing chap who Paul mentioned in his recent Speakers Corner post who referred to Muslims as pigs.
The woman desperate for her daughter to be healed attempted to persuade Jesus with a clever retort. Which worked and her faith was praised as she begged him from her lowly station as a non Jew. There is no mention of Sin here only the an example of racism and xenophobia. Ken perhaps the Jesus in this passage should read what Prophet Muhammad said in his final sermon:
“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.”
(all Bible passages quoted from NIV)
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In essence Ken your interpretation has no basis in the text but comes from outside including having to refer to an entirely seperate incident in another book!
You silly sausage 😉
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Patrice, Blogging Theology has the utmost respect for sausages. Please do not dis them.
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In the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
KT://Muhammad asked for forgiveness of his sins three times in the Qur’an.
The Quran identifies Muhammad as a sinner – see Surah 40:55, 48:2, and 47:19//
Ken silliness knows no bound.
Ken who knows no arabic let alone the arabic of the Qur’an once again shows his ignorance when claiming that prophet Muhammad is a sinner. He just use this line of argument from islamophobes to attack Islam without understanding the context.
Prophet Muhammad is ‘ma’sum’ meaning Allah makes it impossible for him to sin. This applies to all Prophets and angels (Allah bless them and grant them peace), and no one else. This is a necessary trait of all Prophets according to belief of sunni Islam.
Let’s see what the the Holy Quran actually said
“So be patient, [O Muhammad]. Indeed, the promise of Allah is truth. And ask forgiveness for your sin (wastaghfir li-zanbika) and exalt [Allah] with praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning.” (Quran 40:55)
Those verses are understood as a command to the Prophet to devote himself to worship through prayers and asking forgiveness, so that God might raise him in degrees and his practice would become the model for those who would come after him not because he is a sinner. (Tafsir al-Qurtubī : al-Jāmiʿ li-aḥkām al-Qurʾān and al-Ṭabarsī: Majmaʿ al-bayān fī tafsīr al-Qurʾān )
and check in the book of Matthew when Jesus (p) prayed to his God Mat 6:12
Which means:
“And forgive us our sins, as we forgive those sinners against us ” (Matthew 6:12)
So it is clear in Smith and Van Dyke Arabic Bible, exactly the same word dhanūb ذنوب is used.
So if we want to follow Ken twisted logic now he has to admit that Jesus is also a sinner since he prayed to his God asking for forgiveness.
Wow!
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Ken Temple, are you actually saying a righteous person without sin is better than a repentant sinner?
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You see Ken works backwards he interprets first and reads never. Paul i apologize he is not a sausage as sausages are not fundamentalists as they at least react to heat, whereas Ken ignores knowledge and prefers to sizzle in false stereotypes.
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Is there any other religion that is so humanophobe at the core like Ken Temple’s “personal spiritual relationship with God”?
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Unless he really isn’t a Christian despite his sincerity, believe, and pursuit of virtue, since as we know this could all change and therefore he never had a spiritual relationship at all but thought he did. Evangelicals talk a big game about how much “certainty” they have in their salvation but when others say the same somewhere else that isn’t their faith it suddenly evaporates into a mystery where nobody can every truly know.
It is both certain and uncertain at the same time. It would be much easier to follow what Jesus said:
“Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’ – Mark 10:17-19
and
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. – Mark 12:29-34
See thats much better certainty can be found through faith in God alone and obedience to his commands. That sounds very familiar doesn’t it? I wonder what other religion teaches this……..;)
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Lol I wonder too..,
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“See thats much better certainty can be found through faith in God alone and obedience to his commands.”
Exactly. The “Ken-Temple-brand-of-Christianity” fails on both accounts.
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Ken’s take on Christianity is called Calvinism a belief system that was unknown in the early church.
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1. The context of the Lord’s model is prayer is Matthew 6:9-14 — “pray then in this way” – Jesus is teaching the disciples how to pray. “Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who have sinned against us” (verse 12) does not include Jesus. Jesus was sinless; the only human in history to be sinless.
In Luke 11:1-2 – see the context –
“Lord teach us to pray”
But the three examples of Muhammad include his own sins.
2. Notice the context of Mark 7 / Matthew 15
Mark 7:20-23
17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) 20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
Immediately after teaching the disciples this, Jesus goes outside of Israel to see if they learned this lesson.
24 Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 28 But she answered and *said to Him, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children’s crumbs.” 29 And He said to her, “Because of this [o]answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter.” 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.
It is obvious that Jesus is testing the disciples to see if they have learned the lesson of internal cleanliness vs. external cleanliness. He is also testing the woman. The woman passed the test and did not complain. The Canaanites were a very pagan, idol worshiping people, with dirty sex acts within their own religious ceremonies. (why God commanded them to be driven out of the promised land in Deut. 7, 9 and book of Joshua. But the NT changes that.) But God had mercy on her. Jesus was using a common saying that the Jews had at the time about pagans and idol worshipers (they are unclean like dogs), in order to test the Jewish disciples.
There is a parallel passage in Acts chapters 10-11, where Peter struggles to go to the Roman Centurion’s house, also from an unclean pagan culture. Peter says, “you know it is unlawful for us Jews to have anything to do with you Gentiles”; but “God has shown me to not have that attitude anymore” = “what God has cleansed, no longer consider dirty/ unclean”. God showed Peter the vision of the unclean animals and said, “Arise kill and eat”. Peter said, “by no means Lord”. the Lord said, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy” – God was saying – go and relate to non-Jews and eat with them and love them and share the gospel with them. Same message in Mark 7 and Matthew 15 – no longer consider the Canaanites, Greeks, Romans unclean human beings unclean because of their culture and food; rather go and reach out to them, eat meals with them, have discussions, learn their language, share the gospel with them.
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Notice the similar context of food and Gentiles/ non-Jews / Canaanites / Romans / Greeks.
mark 7:19 – by this Jesus declared all foods clean
Acts chapters 10 – 11 – the vision of all the kinds of unclean animals and God telling Peter to arise, kill the animals and eat them.
The parallel is obvious – the message to the New Covenant Jews who are disciples of Jesus – no longer consider other cultures unclean, but go and preach the gospel and eat meals, learn their culture and language, respect them, sit down with them and have discussions.
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ليغفر لك الله ما تقدم من ذنبك وما تاخر ويتم نعمته عليك ويهديك صراطا مستقيما
That Allah may forgive for you what preceded of your sin and what will follow and complete His favor upon you and guide you to a straight path. (Surah 48:2 – Sahih International)
Jesus was sinless, but Muhammad was not.
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So what Ken? Adam was sinless too
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Ken Temple: “The parallel is obvious – the message to the New Covenant Jews who are disciples of Jesus – no longer consider other cultures unclean, …”
But consider all other human beings totally depraved …
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The early church never stood a chance as they were probably never Christians but thought they were. If only Ken and John Calvin were around they could have been saved and had the Holy Spirit.
Sigh…oh well never mind. This problem lies at the heart of Evangelicals such as Ken and James White they base their views on life on everything but what is staring them in the face. James who thinks listening to heresay about a mans life is better than actually asking him (I know what a novel concept, nobody does that anymore…)
and Ken who reinterprets Jesus’ elegantly simple but profound message of Monotheism and life lived pursuit of piety. A belief where God is both just and merciful as he forgives people in light of their shortcomings and they are promised eternity in Gods Kingdom as a reward. This is enough as the listeners to Jesus in Mark 12 did not need to ask anything else, this was the sum total of religion.
Ken, Calvin and others continue to add more and more in turn making the message harder to hear. Hence why we are all asking questions rather than being satisfied and asking no more. Muhammad taught God was one and human beings are created to honor their creator through prayer and righteousness as per the Divine Law. Kens theology asserts an individualism with “personal relationship with God” as the yardstick for authentic faith. The message of Jesus was one of faith yes but also in connection with love for neighbour *as* yourself. Kens theology spends too long in its bedroom worrying incessantly over its own legitimacy therefore needing to go after others to invalidate itself. It must like the silly sausage get out in the sun and sizzle a little bit and be served to others.
In essence Ken should let alone the TULIP and embrace the Rose of Baghdad
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Secret-Secrets-Golden-Palm/dp/0946621292
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Ken Temple seems to believe righteous person without sin is better than a repentant sinner.
That goes against what the biblical Jesus taught.
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Ken’s take on Christianity is called Calvinism a belief system that was unknown in the early church.
Except the verses are all there in the First Century Scriptures. For example on Divine election – Ephesians 1:3-14; Romans chapter 9. Earliest church is the First Century Scriptural evidence.
Second century – 5th Century, they were more focused on the Christological controversies and Roman persecution in 2-4 th Centuries.
It took a while for it to be worked out in history.
The Roman Catholics distorted the Scriptures, especially from 500 AD and 600 AD onward.
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So Christianity did not exist till the 16th century?
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“It took a while for it to be worked out in history.”
Yeah it only took 1500 years to work it out as you say. Nothing to worry about. Seriously…..
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Adam was sinless until he and Eve sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis chapters 2 and 3. they became sinners then and passed that sin nature down to everyone after that.
Romans 5:12
death entered the world through sin and death spread to all mankind, because all sinned in Adam.
Prophet and King David:
“When I was conceived in my mother’s womb, I was a sinner” – Psalm 51:4-5
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Thanks for all the Bible quotes Ken. I have not read the Bible myself so it is very useful.
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Christianity did exist – distortions from 600 AD to 1517 does not mean it totally blinked off.
The additions of doctrines like Purgatory (600 AD onward), Transubstantiation (1215), etc. were massive distortions to the Biblical text.
I wrote a full article on this – “historical developments that led to the eclipsing of the doctrine of justification by faith alone.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/08/historical-developments-that-led-to.html
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Ken Temple “Adam was sinless until he and Eve sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”
They did not sin when they ate the fruit, because they could not distinguish between right and wrong, because they had no “knowledge of good and evil.” – according to the Bible
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Ken with regards to your interpretation of Mark 7
Did you notice that the statement about all foods being clean was not something Jesus actually said but rather the author? If you take that out and allow Jesus to speak for himself he would only be saying that what matters is piety not just following the letter of the law but the spirit as well. No mention of abrogation here. Why should we believe Marks interpretation? After all he was writing to Gentile audience.
Matthew does not express this story in the way that Mark does as he is speaking to a predominantly Jewish audience. The brackets and statement are missing from Matthew 15 which is where this story is told. Why is that?
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“They did not sin when they ate the fruit, because they could not distinguish between right and wrong, because they had no “knowledge of good and evil.” – according to the Bible”
They must not have been saved from eternity past 😉
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“They must not have been saved from eternity past”. Yep, Adam was totally depraved and sinless both at the same time. I’d rather go for Ken’s personal brand of Christianity is utter nonsense
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Ken like Tertullian believes because its nonesense.
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Patrice,
Nothing in Mark 10 or 12 contradicts anything else in the NT.
Later in Mark 10, the disciples say, “Then who can be saved?” – since it is so hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God.
The point of that story is that Jesus is exposing the rich man’s idols in his heart – his money. His greed. His money was his “god”; as he was unwilling to part with it and follow Jesus.
After the disciples asked, “then who can be saved?”
Jesus said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God”
Mark 10:23-27
23 And Jesus, looking around, *said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”
24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and *said to them, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?”
27 Looking at them, Jesus *said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
God is able to change a heart by grace. But humans left to their sinful selves will not seek God.
In Mark 12:29-37 – of course there is nothing there that contradicts The doctrine of the Trinity, since it includes Biblical Monotheism – “The Lord God is One God” – we agree with that.
29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord;
30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
32 The scribe said to Him, “Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him;
33 and to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.
35 And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?
36 David himself said in the Holy Spirit,
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet.”’
37 David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; so in what sense is He his Son?”
And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him.
The verses that follow show one must also understand and believe that the Messiah is the Son of God, and Lord-God by nature.
Only a true believer who is born again and has his heart changed can begin to love the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength. It is never done perfectly in this life, but it is goal to strive toward and grow in. (growth in sanctification and holiness)
“We love, because He FIRST loved us” – 1 John 4:19
1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His [c]only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [atoning sacrifice that takes away the wrath of God from us; saves us from our guilt] for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
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Ken are you seriously suggesting that there are no contractions anywhere in the NT?
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“… and Lord-God by nature.” Another creative invention from the source “Special K”
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the author of Mark 7 (John Mark, writing Peter’s sermons and testimony and memory, who was an eyewitness) and author of Matthew 15 (Matthew Levi – one of the 12 disciples, former tax-collector, eyewitness) are both recording the same event, but not including every detail that the other one fills in.
One has to study both to get the full picture. Like reading 2 eyewitnesses of one event from 2 different angles/perspectives/ corners.
matthew 15 – includes the part about the disciples telling Jesus to send the Canaanite woman away, thus exposing their racial prejudices. But the lesson of the evil heart of evil thoughts is there in Matthew 15 is also there (as in Mark 7) in verses 19-20. Mark makes it clearer, but one gets the full picture when looking at both.
15 Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.”
16 Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”
The Syrophoenician Woman
21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.”
[she acknowledged Jesus as kurios (Yahweh = Lord -God) and Messiah, Son of David.]
23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.”
[shows that Jesus is testing them, by at first, not answering, and waiting for the disciples to expose their own racial prejudice]
24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26 And He answered and said, “It is not [l]good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”
27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs
[ admitted she herself is a sinner and needs grace, and not being defensive or offended by Him calling her a “dog”. The word used is a diminutive word for a little pet dog, not the wild dogs in the streets.]
feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.
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Wow long cut and paste jobs from the Bible! Thanks Ken.
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They (Adam and Eve) sinned when they ate the fruit. The Qur’an calls it a sin also. they had not experienced sin before. the “knowledge of good vs. evil” means the experience of evil, in relation to good. All they knew before that was innocence. God clearly told them the command, etc. and they deliberately violated it. Genesis 2:16-17
The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
They knew the command, so they were responsible for their sin.
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Yes, there are no real contradictions in the NT.
There are some that at first appear to be contradictions, but with deeper study of context, grammar, historical background, harmonizing as coming from God who cannot lie nor have contradictions in His mind and Word, the apparent contradictions clear up to show there are not real contradictions.
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I disagree. An objective reading of the letters gospels etc clearly shows the many contradictions and discrepancies. Also, the only people who believe as you do are fellow evangelicals. No one else does. Most Christians are relaxed about the errors and contradictions.
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They did NOT sin when they ate the fruit, because they could not distinguish between right and wrong, because they had no “knowledge of good and evil.” – according to the Bible
They were innocent. They could not be held accountable, as they had no understanding of what’s “good” and what’s “evil”. They only gained that knowledge AFTER they ate the fruit, according to the Bible.
And please don’t misuse Quranic teachings for your purposes.
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I am relaxed also; because there are good explanations for the apparent contradictions and apparent problems. If you are willing to study hard and not be lazy, there is good explanation for the apparent contradictions.
The Qur’an however, contradicts established history in denying the crucifixion and death of Jesus.
It also mis-understood doctrine of the Trinity, which was established for centuries, and so this proves it was not from God, since God should know what the early Christians believed.
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I disagree Ken. Contradictions are contradictions. Most Christians recognise this and move on. But I guess if you exercise enough ingenuity and intellectual gymnastics you can explain away any contradiction. But it lacks honesty and integrity.
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They gained experiential knowledge of evil when they ate the fruit. But that had the intellectual knowledge of the command from God in Genesis 2:16-17, that even Eve repeated in Gen. 3:1-8, although she seems to have added, “we are not to even touch it”. Maybe God also said that, but it is not recorded in Gen. 2:16-17.
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Ken just out of interest how old do you think the universe is?
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Ken it’s not about “intellectual knowledge” it’s about moral responsibility, Adam had no ethical capacity before he ate the fruit, he COULD not know what he did was WRONG. According to the Bible.
You admitted yourself they were INNOCENT.
If God really created Adam not knowing either good or evil, how could such a harsh and enduring punishment as death for Adam and all his descendants possibly be just?
Our secular courts are more just than God when they show mercy on people who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, such as children and the mentally handicapped.
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Ken,
Early Christians believed alot of things. And each group believed it was the “true” Christianity. Even in modern times, these controversis have not abated. Moreover, even trinitarian Christians, both past and present, don’t understand the trinity, as we all have seen from the many discussions on the subject.
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how old is universe?
I don’t know
We already discussed that you already asked me before, and I already answered before.
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Faiz,
Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy are all agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and the two natures of Christ, according to the first four Ecumenical Creeds of church history:
Nicea (325 AD)
Constantinople (381 AD)
Ephesus (431 AD)
Chalcedon (451 AD)
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Didache (70 – 120 AD) – quoted Matthew 28:19 – baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Clement of Rome (96 AD)
Ignatius (110 AD)
Polycarp (155 AD)
Justin Martyr (165 AD)
Tertullian (writing around 200 AD)
Irenaeus (writing around180-200 AD)
Clement of Alexandria (215 AD)
Origen (250 AD)
Cyprian (258 AD)
They all also agreed on the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, and that was the previous background that led up to the Nicean Council of 325 AD.
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Ken scientists estimate the age of the universe to be about 14 billion years.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Faiz,
Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy are all agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and the two natures of Christ, according to the first four Ecumenical Creeds of church history:
Nicea (325 AD)
Constantinople (381 AD)
Ephesus (431 AD)
Chalcedon (451 AD)
I say;
Be honest from the bottom of your heart and do not get carried away and think you are already having spiritual relationship with God so you can not be honest to defend that.
If you are not honest and follow God’s law not to lie, distort facts, follow Nabeel Quraish, David Wood lies who have no knowledge of Islam and do not know Arabic and the science of hadith, follow evangelical Christians who are white who killed Jews, Catholics, Mormons, Native Americans, Black slaves from Africa, and now Muslims by supporting a tyrant dictator of Egypt, General Sisi as ally to kill Muslims and overthrew a peaceful Saddam at the time he has a Christian vice president, following Jack Van Impe, John Hagee Armageddon to exterminate the Palestinian Muslims and Christians and to covert Jews to Christianity, and use Muslim scriptures to dishonestly claim Trinity concept etc.
All knowing very well they are not true, but thinking you already have the spiritual relationship with God might be a spiritual relationship with devil as Jesus said so many people will use his name for what ever means and he will tell then get the hell out from me.
Tell the truth and follow God’s law instead of defending the indefensible.
IT IS CLEAR FROM THE 1ST CENTURY THERE WAS NO TRINITY AT ALL AND LATER CHRISTIANS DID NOT UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVED IT. ARIANS, EBIONITES WERE PERSECUTED FOR NOT BELIEVING IN THE DEITY OF CHRIST.
COUNCILS AFTER COUNCILS WAS ORGANIZED TO DEFINE TRINITY AND THE DEITY OF CHRIST AND TILL TODAY WE HAVE CHRISTIANS WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVE IN TRINITY AND REJECT THE DEITY OF CHRIST.
NOT QURAN, NOT QURAN, NOT QURAN, NOT MUSLIM, NOT MUSLIMS, NOT MUSLIMS BUT CHRISTINS FROM THE 1ST CENTURY TILL TODAY DO NOT UNDERSTAND TRINITY OR BELIEVED IN IT.
Sorry for the capitals Ken and the rest but I am sick for any one to deny there are Christians from the 1st century till today who do not understand Trinity and do not believe in it and do not believe the Deity of Christi.
It is indisputable and indefensible. Trinity is something only Trinitarians understands and when pressed further they will say it is a mystery.
1 person is 1 being
2 persons are 2 beings
is correct but 2, 3 or more persons same 1 being is a lie. I swear it is a lie but not a mystery. If my Muslim God tells me that I will tell him it is a lie and I will reject Him. Fortunately Muslims do not have anything like this unless heaven, angels, etc. which we cannot count.
I can count multiple persons as multiple beings because every person whether God or man is a being and so multiple persons are multiple being can never ever be multiple persons 1 being. Mormons have multiple persons 1 being also but a Trinitarian will bully them and say God is limited to 3 persons without any proof, yardstick or evidence but quote some obscure verses which are not clear to prove that.
God is clear all over the Bible that He is One, Only and Alone.
The Quran never ever defines Trinity because it is only Trinitarians who understands it but they do not understand at the same time and call it a mystery.
Quran cleverly states do not say 3 including the Rastafarians and Temples Trinity which are different but use the 3 for God.
Thans.
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Ken scientists estimate the age of the universe to be about 14 billion years.
Yes, I know that many Scientists today do that.
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you said you didn’t know – now you do.
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Personal Spiritual Relationship with God?
Those who use drugs like cocaine, heroine, wee etc. will tell you they have personal spiritual relationship(High) and some believe it is God especially the Rastafarians.
Some sufi Muslims when they spin and spin and spin will tell you they have personal spiritual relationship with God
Some Christians when they sing and dance and dance and chant and speak in tongues will tell you they have personal spiritual relationship with God.
All Idol worshipers especially voodoo priests and their congregation will dance and dance till the spirit descent on them and some of them will feel it and will tell you it is God.
Creflo A. Dollar, T.D. Jakes, Eddie Lee Long, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn etc. all claimed to have Holy Spirit and personal spiritual relationship with God. Later it was discovered some of them are indeed very bad.
Could the spirit they feel was devil? If God spirit can come to a bad person then Ken Temple and his people are not the only ones with personal relationship with God.
THINK, THINK, THINK
Ken Temple accuse others of thinking the have personal relationship with God but his is the real one without any yardstick, proof, evidence with which we can all accept except bullying us into submission by using his own standards, his own scriptures and quotations here and there that we do not believe but him to bully us to accept him form of spiritual relationship with God as real.
Ken, we do not believe your spiritual relationship is real and we do not believe your Bible but let us come to are yardstick like
God is powerful
God do not die
God is not man or anything you can think of
Any one who associate anything to God might be having a spiritual relationship with the devil because the devil will let you think so in the case of voodoo.
What will drive you away from the devil?
Pray like Jesus and ask God for forgiveness like Jesus and fall down to the ground and worship the only one true God of Abraham who is 1.
Seek refuge in the only one God of Abraham against Satan the cursed; according to the Quran
Follow God’s law
The last advice is my own biase and it is not a yardstick so many will accept and so I am not bullying any one to accept it. That is what I believe. The yardstick must be acceptable to all.
Thanks.
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I already knew what many Scientists say; I don’t know for sure if they are correct.
could it be 20,000 or 300,000 or 1 million or 30 million years ? who knows, if God does miracles and creates age within His first creation? God said, “be, and it was”. Trees, plants, the first animals, etc. and Adam and Eve were created already as adults.
We don’t know how God was measuring time before He created the sun of our solar system on day 4. (Genesis 1:14-19)
The Quran in Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly teaches that God created “the heavens and the earth” in six days.
“According to Abu Hisham- Mu’awiyah b. Hisham- Sufyan- al-A’mash- Abu Salih- Ka’b: This world is six thousand years.”
(Tarikh تاریخ (History) of Al Tabari, The History of al-Tabari, Volume 1- General Introduction and from the Creation to the Flood (trans. Franz Rosenthal, State University of New York Press, Albany 1989, p. 172-173)
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Ken you are not a scientist so are not really qualified to contradict them.
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Claiming to have the Holy Spirit does not mean that one has the Holy Spirit.
Claiming to have faith does not mean that one actually possesses real faith. (James 2:14-26)
The Evidence (Fruit) of the Holy Spirit is . . . (Galatians 5:22-23)
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Ken you said
‘Claiming to have faith does not mean that one actually possesses real faith. (James 2:14-26)
The Evidence (Fruit) of the Holy Spirit is . . . (Galatians 5:22-23)’
So by your criteria I assume you are happy to state that Sam Shamoun is not a Christian, as his ‘fruit’ is plain to all the world.
Instead of Galatians 5:22-23
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
we see the fruit of Shamoun’s spirit is hatred, discord, intolerance, bigotry, evil, mendacity, lies, harshness and lack of self control.
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Ken Temple
Everybody understands God is 1 and it is all over the Bible i.e. clear like crystal clear in both NT and OT. Ebionites, Arians, Jews, Muslims Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy all agree God is One and Only.
Not everyone agree Jesus is God, God is 3 persons in 1, and it is not clear in the Bible. Quran has Christians siding with it to reject the Trinity. Jews and others who believe in God have sided with the Quran in rejecting the Trinity. Trinity is for only Trinitarians. The Quran has others who do not believe in it but believed Trinity must be rejected before and after Islam.
Blaming the Quran for rejecting Trinity as if any the whole world believed in it is frustrating to me. Christians have rejected Trinity from the 1st century and continue to reject Trinity today and it is not strange the Quran totally rejects it with force. Do not say 3, desist, it is better for you. God is 1 and only and nothing is like Him according to the Bible and the Quran.
The Quran did not bribe the Christians to reject Trinity. They reject it before and after the Quran.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Claiming to have the Holy Spirit does not mean that one has the Holy Spirit.
Claiming to have faith does not mean that one actually possesses real faith. (James 2:14-26)
The Evidence (Fruit) of the Holy Spirit is . . . (Galatians 5:22-23)
I say;
Once again, the above is your own bias and belief and it is not accepted by everyone.
Why not
God is 1 and nothing else?
God is not a man?
God do not die?
Do you accept God is 1, only and alone? Nothing must be compared or associated with God?
God is powerful? and will not die?
Man is too less for God to be man?
If yes then we can take it as a yardstick or criteria to determine who is feeling the spirit of God but not the spirit of devil from satan.
You know? If you do not obey the law of God, satan can easily defeat you into thinking you really have a spiritual relationship with God as I illustrated above.
Let assume you Fruit is ok. Sikhs are the most peaceful people in the world and they deal with idols and spirits and will tell you that they feel the spiritual relationship with God. Is their God the Holy Spirit? but not the devil deceiving them into thinking they have real spiritual relationship with God?
Thanks.
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Ken,
Whether you like it or not, the fact is that Christianity has had a diverse history of beliefs. That is why there were so many “councils”, as Intellect points out.
Regarding the age of the universe, since you seem to think that the scientists “may be wrong” (even though it is indisputable), what do you have to say about the following verse:
“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.” (Leviticus 11:6)
Now, the scientists say that rabbits are not ruminants. Are you saying they “may be wrong” about this too?
For more Bible errors regarding science, see the following:
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/science-in-bible-and-quran.html
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In the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
ليغفر لك الله ما تقدم من ذنبك وما تاخر ويتم نعمته عليك ويهديك صراطا مستقيما
That Allah may forgive for you what preceded of your sin and what will follow and complete His favor upon you and guide you to a straight path. (Surah 48:2 – Sahih International)
KT: //Jesus was sinless, but Muhammad was not.//
On contrary, this verse rather shows that Prophet Muhammad is infallible (‘iṣmah ) because God Himself had forgiven him all of his past and future sins in advance (Imam Suyuti’s tafsir Jalālayn; Ar-Razi’s tafsir al Kabīr).
Whereas Jesus not only pray for the forgiveness for his sins as in Matthew but also he need to be baptized by John the Baptist for repentance and the remission of his sins. (see Luke 3:3) فَجَاءَ إِلَى جَمِيعِ الْكُورَةِ الْمُحِيطَةِ بِالأُرْدُنِّ يَكْرِزُ بِمَعْمُودِيَّةِ التَّوْبَةِ لِمَغْفِرَةِ الْخَطَايَا, before he started his ministry.
The word used here for sin is khaṭīat خَطِيٓـَٔة, this carries a more negative meaning than ذنب because خَطِيٓـَٔة suggest a bad intention (and thus is better translated as sin instead of mistake).
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I conclude after reading the comments first thought what a waste of time, Second, Christians putting up a charade or an act of goody-goody, being nice, like when Christians tell me to a sickening extent “Jesus loves you”, all I can say in reply is I am not gay. Now coming to Muslims, Well… they are being Muslims (i.e obnoxious, despicable, wretched, redundant, all the related synonyms and even more). Damn, More waste of time, outta here!
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Ken Temple “who knows, if God does miracles and creates age within His first creation?”
So God could have created everything 2 min. ago and implanted all your memory and your beliefs …
Muslims and scientists generally have one thing in common: they live in a universe that makes sense.
Some Christian fundamentalists apparently not
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World without religions
Thanks for taking the time to read through the comments as they’re quite alot of them!
I am sorry that you feel about the discussion being a waste of time and you thought we were being obnoxious. It was certainly not my intention to be (can’t speak for anyone else)
These debates can quite lively at times but that is only because we are passionate about getting to the truth of an issue and sometimes that cannot be done by holding back the weight behind our thoughts. I might not agree with Ken on these issues but i appreciate him giving his point of view both honestly and clearly.
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“could it be 20,000 or 300,000 or 1 million or 30 million years ? who knows, if God does miracles and creates age within His first creation? God said, “be, and it was”. Trees, plants, the first animals, etc. and Adam and Eve were created already as adults. ”
The problem here is that by working with possibilities alone one can assume just about anything to potentially be true such as saying that the universe is situated on top of an infinite stack of turtles or that we were genetically engineered by aliens from outer space. The question is rather what is the probability these things are true based on what evidence we have available.
Is it possible that God created the universe in six, twenty four hour days? Sure theoretically God can do anything since he is all powerful (according to some religions anyway). But is that what happened?
Heck according to that logic maybe even a certain individual living in 7th Century Arabia may even be a Prophet of God. As you say Ken, “God said, “be and it was”.” 😉
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The Qur’an and commentary in Al Tabari’s history also say that Allah created the universe in 6 – 24 hour days.
The Quran in Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly teaches that God created “the heavens and the earth” in six days.
“According to Abu Hisham- Mu’awiyah b. Hisham- Sufyan- al-A’mash- Abu Salih- Ka’b: This world is six thousand years.”
(Tarikh تاریخ (History) of Al Tabari, The History of al-Tabari, Volume 1- General Introduction and from the Creation to the Flood (trans. Franz Rosenthal, State University of New York Press, Albany 1989, p. 172-173)
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Jesus was baptized by John, precisely because He did NOT need to be baptized, in order to enter into sinful man’s position and be our substitute, later also taking our sins on the cross. His incarnation, baptism, and atonement were substitutionary acts of entering into humanity and taking our sin for us, and giving us His righteousness, because we are sinful and unrighteous.
John Piper:
“Now, Jesus comes into that situation and John says to him: Whoa. “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me [to be baptized]?” In other words: He makes crystal clear that Jesus does not need this baptism. He does not need to repent. He does not need to confess any sins. So why are you here?
Jesus gives one sentence in answer, and it is massively important. He says, “Let it now be so, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (verse 15). It is fitting. That is why he is doing it. It is fitting. Well, what is fitting? Fulfilling all righteousness is fitting. Evidently Jesus saw his life as the fulfillment of all righteousness. And the fact that participating in a baptism of repentance even though he had no sins to repent of is part of that shows that the righteousness he wanted to fulfill was the righteousness required not of himself, but of every sinful man.
Jesus had read Isaiah 53. Indeed, Isaiah 53 was his life mission. And here is what he read in verse 11: “By his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous.” The righteous one will cause many to be counted righteous.
So my answer to the question of why Jesus insisted on being baptized is that this new people who were being gathered by John the Baptist on the basis of repentance and faith, not on the basis of Jewishness, would need to be justified. They would need to be counted righteous, because they weren’t righteous. They would need to have a righteousness not their own, as Paul said in Philippians 3:8. [should be 3:9] And that righteousness included the fulfillment of all righteousness in life, the life of Jesus. All the righteousness that would be required of men before the court of God Jesus performed. And so he joined fallen humanity, for whom he was providing righteousness in sharing their baptism.”
http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-was-jesus-baptized
Look around at Desiring God and listen to sermons there for free. Good material on the Bible.
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I might not agree with Ken on these issues but i appreciate him giving his point of view both honestly and clearly.
Thank you Patrice!
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“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.” (Leviticus 11:6)
Now, the scientists say that rabbits are not ruminants. Are you saying they “may be wrong” about this too?
The Bible uses “phenomenological language” – language as it appears to us humans – for example “the sun rises” or “the earth stood still” (in Joshua, see article below) – describes how it appears to us; not meant to be a scientific accurate statement.
Since coneys and rabbits move their jaws sideways like ruminants, and they eat the same food, they give the appearance of chewing the cud. Even the naturalist Linnaeus at first thought they were ruminants.
Here is a good article on phenomenological language:
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/basic-literary-forms-i/
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Ken Temple
You said;
His incarnation, baptism, and atonement were substitutionary acts of entering into humanity and taking our sin for us, and giving us His righteousness, because we are sinful and unrighteous.
I say;
-Where in the Bible can we find a clear salvation statement “God incarnated into man”, “God entered into humanity”?
-When God entered into humanity, where did He hang his divine coat so that after he comes back from humanity he can take his divine coat back and wear it to become God again?
-Or did He(God) entered into humanity with all His divinity? if so Jesus should tell us the day of Judgement. Which God is that that entered into humanity with all His divinity and will not know the day of judgement?
-Dr. Shabbir Ally argues, Divine being is not something that can be kept in a shelve and enter into humanity and then come come and take the Divine being back and use it.
He argues, if a divine being can be a human being, the he is no more a divine being. God cannot seize to be God and so cannot be a human being in any way, shape or form.
-Moses, Abraham and all prophets of God never ever taught their followers that God will enter into humanity as incarnated man to atone for our sins.
If all prophets did not teach this atonement of substitutionary act, then it must be wrong. When Moses brought the Ten commandments from God, there is clear statement that God is 1. There is no statement that God incarnated into man for substitutionay atonement.
Thanks.
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Where in the Bible can we find a clear salvation statement “God incarnated into man”, “God entered into humanity”?
Don’t be lazy but read them all and think deeply about them and open your heart to them.
John 1:1-5 and 1:14
Philippians 2:5-8
Colossians 1:19; 2:9 – all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus in bodily form
Hebrews 2:14, 17 – He became human, flesh and blood, made into the likeness of humans, “in order to make propitiation for the sins of the people”- in order to save them from sin and the wrath of God. “propitiation” means “the satisfaction of justice” or “the satisfaction of the wrath of God against sin”
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Ken Temple
You said;
Where in the Bible can we find a clear salvation statement “God incarnated into man”, “God entered into humanity”?
Don’t be lazy but read them all and think deeply about them and open your heart to them.
John 1:1-5 and 1:14
I say;
I shouldn’t be lazy and no one should be lazy either, in searching for the truth. That is why we are all here most times.
Yes, you are right I should not be lazy and that led me to say
” all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus in bodily form” do not mean “God incarnated into man” and it is wrong by whoever wrote the gospels.
Why?
You agreed with me here that Jesus(The Son) do not possess the Father role/attribute/characteristics/nature/etc. or generating the Son or any other God because the Trinitarian God is limited to 3 persons.
madmanna, a staunch Trinitarian Christian disagreed with you honestly and wholeheartedly that Jesus(The Son) i.e. the Second person of the Trinity cannot be God for not possessing all the attributes of God(The Father).
Again it is a lie to say ” all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus in bodily form” because Jesus do not know the day of judgement so he cannot have the fullness of Deity dwells in him.
You keep blaming the Quran for rejecting the Deity of Jesus Christ and Trinity as if Trinity is true and not rejected by Christians themselves in the 1st century till today.
This is a Christian, not a Muslim, not Quran, not Jew but Christian totally rejecting Trinity and the Deity of Christ and countless number are on youtuble. He believes the Father alone is God and The Son is not God.
You know what? Every body accepts God is 1. No dispute about that because God made it clear in all His scriptures from Torah, NT and Quran. No one can mess with God is 1, only and alone.
God did not say he is 3 persons in 1 but decided by men at councils upon councils. Do not depend your life on that.
Thanks.
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Ken said:
“The Bible uses “phenomenological language” – language as it appears to us humans – for example “the sun rises” or “the earth stood still” (in Joshua, see article below) – describes how it appears to us; not meant to be a scientific accurate statement.
Since coneys and rabbits move their jaws sideways like ruminants, and they eat the same food, they give the appearance of chewing the cud. Even the naturalist Linnaeus at first thought they were ruminants.
Here is a good article on phenomenological language:
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/basic-literary-forms-i/”
This is very disingenuous, Ken. I guarantee that if a similar problem had arisen in the Quran or any other religious book, the Christians would have been screaming of a scientific error, but if it’s the Bible that is under scrutiny, then it’s “phenomenological language”.
The fact is that rumination does not simply have to do with “moving jaws sideways”. Ruminants regurgitate their food and chew it again. It is a digestive adaptation. Rabbits do not do that. Therefore, the Bible is making an inaccurate statement.
Also, even if rabbits “give the appearance of chewing the cud”, that would not be a good excuse for a supposedly “inspired” book as the Bible. Shouldn’t God have known that appearances can be deceiving?
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Regarding the claim that the Quran says that the universe was created in 6 literal 24-hour periods, some commentators did believe this, but others were not so sure. Some commentators refused to take the Quranic statement literally. The reason was that in other verses, a “day” was compared to 1,000 years or 50,000 years. Based on these verses, many commentators did not say that it was 6 literal days. I discussed this in my article:
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/science-in-bible-and-quran.html
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Where in the Bible can we find a clear salvation statement “God incarnated into man”, “God entered into humanity”?
KT: //Don’t be lazy but read them all and think deeply about them and open your heart to them.
John 1:1-5 and 1:14
Philippians 2:5-8
Colossians 1:19; 2:9 – all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus in bodily form
Hebrews 2:14, 17 – He became human, flesh and blood, made into the likeness of humans, “in order to make propitiation for the sins of the people”- in order to save them from sin and the wrath of God. “propitiation” means “the satisfaction of justice” or “the satisfaction of the wrath of God against sin”//
I have read Unitarian position on those verses, there is nothing about God become or incarnate into a man, in John 1:1-5 and 1:14,Philippians 2:5-8 unless you have trinitarian presupposition. I have shown this before.
Colossians 1:19; 2:9 does not prove anything except that Jesus (p) had divine nature (ie. the spirit of God) inside him the same thing is said about every believer (2 Peter. 1:4).
Also Hebrews 2:14, 17 – do not say about incarnation either. The context is about Jesus Made Like His Brothers , verses, 2:11, says that the one who makes holy (Jesus ) and those who have been made holy (the believers) are all from one God. Jesus as prophet of God is not ashamed to accept others who accept him as his brothers (in faith). Only if Jesus is true man, he can be brother to others fellow human. Verse, 2:14, it does not say become or incarnate into a man instead it uses synonymous words koinōneō (κοινωνέω) and metechō (μετέχω) and should be translated as “shared” in this context because as “brothers” Jesus shares the “flesh and blood” of his followers.
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Faiz said:
“The fact is that rumination does not simply have to do with “moving jaws sideways”. Ruminants regurgitate their food and chew it again. It is a digestive adaptation. Rabbits do not do that. Therefore, the Bible is making an inaccurate statement.”
I reply:
The Hebrew word apparently covers both cecotrophy and rumination. Only one non-scientific english word can be used for both. So the translators had to choose this word.
Rats are apparently unclean for other reasons. Maybe because they are not herbivores like rabbits are. If an animal possesses one quality that makes it qualifiy it may also possess another that disqualifies it to be a clean animal.
How many days of creation are there according to the Koran? Isn’t it self contradictory?
The bible clearly states that the world was made in six days because we work 6 and rest 1 day, just like God.
There is no contradiction between the bible and any truth that science is capable of substantiating.
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“Where in the Bible can we find a clear salvation statement “God incarnated into man”, “God entered into humanity”?”
What would these statements have meant to the original readers of the New Testament? Would they have been able to form a clear concept of the incarnation from statements like these? The statement that God entered into humanity can mean various things.
I think it is fair to say that the bible was written for the common man, not for theological doctors or scientists or the typical Muslim apologist who likes to split hairs. These demands don’t make sense to me.
If you want such a statement the Weymouth NT gives you one:
Weymouth New Testament
So, my brethren, to you also the Law died through the incarnation of Christ, that you might be wedded to Another, namely to Him who rose from the dead in order that we might yield fruit to God.
Satisfied, of course not. The next demand follows.
The readers of the bible have a book that doesn’t need to be re-written or abgrogated like our Muslim friends.
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Madmanna://How many days of creation are there according to the Koran? Isn’t it self contradictory?//
The word yaum يوم as used in the holy Qur’an does not necessarily mean ” day” , it could also mean time, age, era or waqt وَقْت, consult this to any good arabic dictionary.
That is why the Qur’an has used the word yaum for a variable length of time, nothing contradictory about it.
So when the phrase سِتَّةِ أَيَّام mean six days or periods. Obviously day and night as and time as we perceive them could not exist before the existence of the Sun and the Earth.
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Thanks Brother Eric.
The Day and Night was also created according to the Quran, so the 6 yaum could mean time, age, era etc.
madmanna
You said;
“Where in the Bible can we find a clear salvation statement “God incarnated into man”, “God entered into humanity”?”
What would these statements have meant to the original readers of the New Testament? Would they have been able to form a clear concept of the incarnation from statements like these? The statement that God entered into humanity can mean various things.
I think it is fair to say that the bible was written for the common man, not for theological doctors or scientists or the typical Muslim apologist who likes to split hairs. These demands don’t make sense to me.
If you want such a statement the Weymouth NT gives you one:
Weymouth New Testament
So, my brethren, to you also the Law died through the incarnation of Christ, that you might be wedded to Another, namely to Him who rose from the dead in order that we might yield fruit to God.
Satisfied, of course not. The next demand follows.
The readers of the bible have a book that doesn’t need to be re-written or abgrogated like our Muslim friends.
I say;
madmanna, yes the Bible is written for the common man not a theological doctors or scientist like James White, Ken Temple and the rest when it comes to who God is.
You are right here again siding with Muslims against your Trinitarians.
There are other things where we will need the doctors and scientists to help but not the nature of God or who God said clearly He is. God clearly said over and over that He is One, Only and Alone and NOTHING, NONE, NO OTHER, NOTHING ELSE.
Nothing means nothing including Jesus Christ.
Find below.
“You alone is Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” Zechariah 14:9
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
etc.
(I have more and more from the Bible how clear God is about His nature)
madmanna, Jesus himself from his own mouth concluded
John 17:3
New International Version
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Jesus said he is not true God. Why worship him? You are joking with hot fire in the day of judgement.
There is no single “God is 3 persons in 1”, “God incarnated into man”, “God entered into humanity” in the Bible and some Christians from the 1st century till today rejected it because it simply not there like the above which is not disputable.
No one can dispute God is 1 because it is clearly said by God and written and that is what must be believed but not councils upon councils to favour the Greeko-Roman God.
Thanks.
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Madmanna,
Caecotrophy and rumination are two different processes, so the Bible is wrong, pure and simple. If the Bible had said that rabbits were unclean, without giving a reason (as it did with rats), that would be one thing. But since it refers to rabbits as ruminants, but not rats, then it is being very inconsistent. Hence, in spite of your dishonest apologetic excuse-making, the Bible erroneously refers to rabbits as ruminants.
And this is just one example of the many errors ut has. So it would appear that the Bible does indeed need to be re-written, regardless of what our Christian brothers say. 😉
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Alsalam Alaykum,
Brother Paul, May Allah help you and protect you . The struggle for your faith and your belief is not something easy ! In someway, I know how you feel. Sometimes there are weaken moments, but by Duah and patient, everything will be ok . I wish if I know the solution for this issue to help everyone on this world.
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You’re a sheltered westerner. Your freedom to choose your religion comes from secularism. Almost no muslim country would respect your homosexuality. As a gay man actually living in a muslim country your apologism for Islam’s homophobia disgusts me. When christians are bigots we make no apology for them.
Try being gay in a place ruled by muslims. Of course your tiny muslim community in the US won’t persecute you, but it’d be a different story if they were in charge of the land… are you so naive not to be aware of this? Your naivity and foolishness makes you an agent of hatred and oppression. Despicable. Enjoy your idiotic religion, it cost you your integrity and decency.
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A stupid ignorant rant
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The hatred is palpable in every sentence.
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Question for brother Paul:
Sorry if this is too personal.
The Quran in (29:45) teaches that salat helps the believer avoid sin and immorality. I think a lot of Muslims who are attracted to the opposite sex can testify that it does regulate this attraction and reduce the temptation to sin. Do you feel the same is true of same-sex attraction?
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absolutely!
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