Some Christians ‘get it’ – sadly most do not

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Categories: Bible, God

49 replies

  1. He is by definition not a Christian.

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    • He is by definition a true follower of Jesus. Ken, you follow man made doctrines that have led you astray.

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    • Jesus was no Christian

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    • Ken, are the church fathers Christians? just asking. ..

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    • Depends on what you mean by “church fathers” – Ignatius clearly spoke of the Deity of Christ many times, and he is one of the earliest Christian writers – around 10-117 AD. Here are some of the early church fathers on the Deity of Christ.

      1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–117): For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit. (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 18.2. Translation from Michael Holmes, Apostolic Fathers, 197)

      2. Ignatius (again): Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life. (Ibid., 19.3. Holmes, AF, 199)

      3. Ignatius (again): For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father. (Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 3.3. Holmes, AF, 229)

      4. Ignatius (again): I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 1.1. Holmes, AF, 249.)

      5. Ignatius (again): Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way. (Ignatius, Letter to Polycarp, 3.2. Holmes, AF, 265.)

      6. Polycarp of Smyrna (69–155): Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth . . ., and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead. (Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2. Holmes, AF, 295)

      7. Epistle of Barnabas (written c. 70–130): “If the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make humankind according to our image and likeness,” how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of humans?” (Epistle of Barnabas, 5.5. Holmes, AF, 393)

      8. Justin Martyr (100–165): And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 128. Translation from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, I:264)

      9. Justin (again): “Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.” (Ibid., 36. ANF, I:212.)

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    • Also, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Augustine, Ambrose, Hillary, Jerome. All believed in the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.

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    • But there were many other Christian theologians and leaders who did not.

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    • like who, Gnostics? they are not Christians. who else ?

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    • All those non-Trinitarians who populated the early church starting from James head of the church in Jerusalem

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    • James called Jesus “the glorious Lord” – James 2:1, so you are wrong. boom!

      Also, James believed in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah – Galatians 1:19, and agreed with the apostle Paul – Galatians 2:19 – boom boom!

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    • Ken you are so naive. What evidence do you have that Jesus’s brother wrote the letter??

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    • all of Christian history

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  2. All of Christianity has always taught the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.

    Unitarianism is an ancient heresy (in Arianism, but even that is not the same as modern Unitarianism. Arianism today is closer in Jehovah’s Witnesses.) that was more revived in the last 2-3 hundred years.

    Dr. Brown and Dr. White defeated Anthony Buzzard and Joseph Goode in their debate on the Trinity and Deity of Christ.

    https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/trinity-debate/

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    • You do not know your historical theology Ken. None of the disciples believed in a trinity of persons. Jesus never preached it either. It is not taught in the Bible.

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    • The disciples did – when they wrote Matthew 28:19 and 2 Cor. 13:14 and Matthew 3:13-17, they show that they did. and Jesus did also – John 5, 8, 10, 20:28; Matthew 14:33 (Jesus received worship, which shows He did understand Himself as God in the flesh.)

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    • But your own scholars would see you as a simple minded fundamentalist Ken, for they no longer consider any of the disciples to have written the gospels.

      You are like dogmatic flat earther when scientists now know the earth is round!

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    • since neither I, nor any Biblical conservative scholar believes in flat earth (no one who is normal does anymore); why would you throw that goofy comment in, since it has nothing to do with anything? There are lots of conservative scholars and pastors who believe in the early dating of the gospels and the truth of the Bible, but no one holds to a flat earth. Besides, you are also a fundamentalist Muslim, since you believe in the prophethood of Muhammad, the inspiration of the Qur’an and that Islam is true, etc. – since you are also a fundamentalist (believing in fundamental, foundation truths of your own religion), why do you feel the need to throw that out there, instead of just sticking to facts, verses, quotes, arguments? Could it be you are feel trapped and don’t have an intellectual argument left, so you resort to ad hominem type stuff?

      Also, liberals are not “my own scholars”. You constantly throw that out there seemingly to set up a Christian/western / modern scholars vs. Islamic scholars, which don’t have as many liberals and none that live in their countries, otherwise, they would be executed or jailed (in Saudi Arabia, Iran) or thrown out a window and killed by students.

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    • “All of Christianity has always taught the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.”

      Wrong. Was the HS the God of Jesus?

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    • Burhanuddin1

      “Wrong. Was the HS the God of Jesus?”

      Yawn. Which of your god’s 99 personas is the god of your god? Do they take turns, or is it a struggle for power? DO they hold elections to see which is in charge? LOL!!

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  3. He is not a follower of Jesus, since He denies that Jesus is Yahweh.

    “Truly I say to you, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24

    Jesus clearly is claiming that He is Yahweh.

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  4. Mr. Williams, I’ve always wondered why you decided to become a Muslim and not a Unitarian. I’ve read your story but you didn’t really take into account Unitarianism like Dr. Buzzard did. Care to share?

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  5. If Jesus is not God that doesn’t automatically make Islam true. Arius was not a proto-muslim even though he denied the divinity of Christ.

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  6. He said that he was of a different substance. But lets just assume I’m wrong on Arius. How does Jesus being divine make Islam true? If he died by crucifixion then Islam is false and yet every scholar you cite who denies the divinity of Jesus will affirm his death by crucifixion. With Unitarianism, you wouldn’t have that problem.

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  7. Sorry, How does Jesus NOT being divine make Islam true?

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  8. No, Islam denies the crucifixion. Surah 4:157.

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  9. Arius said that the Son was a creature, a creation; then all other things were created. so he was a heretic.

    Even Islam does not believe Jesus was a created spirit in the past and then all other things were created through him.

    But Arius believed in the crucifixion and resurrection, but Islam denies that, so they are not the same as ancient Arianism.

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  10. Yes clearly Anthony Buzard is not a Christian and thats why he clearly does not get it.

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  11. Dingbat said:

    Yawn. Which of your god’s 99 personas is the god of your god? Do they take turns, or is it a struggle for power? DO they hold elections to see which is in charge? LOL!!

    Deflecting from the topic again? LOL!!!

    It seems you simply are afraid to discuss your Bible because you know you will be cornered, so you try to change topics!

    Does your god have 4 eyes? 😉

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  12. Yah wrong said:

    Faiz how many eyes does your allah have? And is it or all of them only right eyes lol

    LOL, another Christian not answering my question? Oh dear, oh dear…

    Liked by 1 person

  13. “But your own scholars would see you as a simple minded fundamentalist Ken, for they no longer consider any of the disciples to have written the gospels.

    You are like dogmatic flat earther when scientists now know the earth is round! ”

    LOL!! BOOM, BOOM Ken!

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    • Denying that Jesus of Nazareth died on the cross under Pontius Pilate and the Jewish leadership is the equivalent of simple minded fundamentalists and red necks and uneducated goof balls.

      Boom, boom, boom, boom!

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  14. “Ken you are so naive. What evidence do you have that Jesus’s brother wrote the letter??”

    He doesn’t have any. The “Holy Spirit” tells him so. LOL!

    Here is what the USCCB states:

    Others, however, believe it more likely that James is a pseudonymous work of a later period. In addition to its Greek style, they observe further that (a) the prestige that the writer is assumed to enjoy points to the later legendary reputation of James; (b) the discussion of the importance of good works seems to presuppose a debate subsequent to that in Paul’s own day; (c) the author does not rely upon prescriptions of the Mosaic law, as we would expect from the historical James; (d) the letter contains no allusions to James’s own history and to his relationship with Jesus or to the early Christian community of Jerusalem. For these reasons, many recent interpreters assign James to the period A.D. 90–100“” (http://www.usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=James&ch=)

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  15. Ken Temple

    You said;
    I am a Protestant, so what liberal Roman Catholic bishops say carries no weight with me. Neither does liberal Protestant scholarship, it also carries no weight.

    I say;
    But you want what your scholars say to carry weight on Muslims and the Quran. That Jesus Christ of Nazareth died without coroners report, post mortem and DNA evidence.

    No body can prove or has concrete evidence that Moses parted the red sea, Jesus died, He(that person) will go to heaven as Christians lied, lied and lied and lied again that they have ticked and free pass to heaven and when you ask for proof they will not have.

    It is all believe and believe is believe but not evidence or proof. Some people believe Jesus died without proof except what scholars or Church Fathers said, but the Quran said God saved Jesus, His prophet and Jesus did not die. They Bible said Jesus cried for help. God always helps and save His prophets.

    No proof Jesus died, so you cannot use the NT which has poisonous snake verses and ghosts coming out from their graves during the death of Jesus to dis prove the Quran. You cannot use NT which has conflicting stories of the crucifixion to disprove the Quran.

    Thanks.

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  16. “I am a Protestant, so what liberal Roman Catholic bishops say carries no weight with me. Neither does liberal Protestant scholarship, it also carries no weight.”

    In other words, you ignore any views that do not agree with your own. How scholarly of you!

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  17. “Denying that Jesus of Nazareth died on the cross under Pontius Pilate and the Jewish leadership is the equivalent of simple minded fundamentalists and red necks and uneducated goof balls.

    Boom, boom, boom, boom!”

    LOL, just like denying that Jesus was a first-century apocalyptic prophet who predicted that he would return in the 1st century?

    Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom!

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Ken needs to take up fishing it’ll calm his ‘explosive’ tendencies 😉

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