A popular proof of the deity of Jesus

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A popular proof of the deity of Jesus if you believe Jesus’s disciples were also God



Categories: Bible, Christianity, God

52 replies

  1. Everyone is God if you mistranslate the Hebrew bible.

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  2. Since you quoted John you are now stuck with it now that I am going to use the context of the passages you cited against you.

    Let’s reread John 17:21 carefully:

    “And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE ONE… THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE ONE, I IN THEM and you in me, THAT THEY MAY BECOME COMPLETELY ONE, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. ” John 17:11, 21-23

    Williams, please be so kind and show me where it says the disciples ARE ONE WITH THE FATHER AND THE SON! The text says that the disciples will be one with each other AS THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE. It nowhere says they are one with the Father and the Son. Moreover, Jesus says that he is personally IN ALL OF THE DISCIPLES, which results in their being made one with each other. This is an explicit claim to omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence since Jesus must know who the true disciples are and have the ability to then gather them together forever.

    Now let’s see the context of John 10:30, shall we?

    MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they will never perish. NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. 29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand.[a] 30 The Father and I are one.” John 10:27-30

    Here Jesus says he is one with the Father in his ability to grant all believers everlasting life and preserving them from every perishing. He further claims that true believers are his sheep under his care (i.e., “from my hands”) whose voice they always here.

    Now anyone familiar with the OT realizes that Jesus just attributed himself the very unique prerogatives and functions ascribed to Yahweh alone:

    “See now that I, even I, am he; there is no god besides me. I kill AND I MAKE ALIVE; I wound and I heal; AND NO ONE CAN DELIVER FROM MY HAND.” Deuteronomy 32:39

    “O come, let us worship and bow down, let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker! 7 For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture, AND THE SHEEP OF HIS HAND. O that today YOU WOULD LISTEN TO HIS VOICE! 8 Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness,” Psalm 95:6-8

    “You are my witnesses, says the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. 11 I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior. 12 I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses, says the Lord. 13 I am God, and also henceforth I AM HE; THERE IS NO ONE WHO CAN DELIVER FROM MY HAND; I work and who can hinder it?” Isaiah 43:10-13

    No wonder the Jews (correctly) assumed that Jesus, being a man, was making himself out to be God. Where they were mistaken is in assuming that he was blaspheming for making such an assertion:

    “The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, THOUGH ONLY A HUMAN BEING, ARE MAKING YOURSELF GOD.” John 10:31-33

    Still not convinced Jesus is claiming to be God Almighty? Well then here you go:

    “Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, SO ALSO THE SON GIVES LIFE TO WHOMEVER HE WISHES… 25 Very truly, I tell you, THE HOUR IS COMING, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted THE SON ALSO TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF… 28 Do not be astonished at this; FOR THD HOUR IS COMING is coming when all who are IN THEIR GRAVES WILL HEAR HIS [THE SON’S] VOICE 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:2, 25-26, 28-29

    “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, AND THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

    Here, Jesus says that he gives life and will raise the dead (both spiritually and physically) from their graves at the last hour by the sovereign power of his voice since he is the Truth and the Life. Now let’s see what your Quran says about this:

    That is because Allah, HE IS THE TRUTH, AND IT IS HE WHO GIVES LIFE TO THE DEAD, and it is He Who is Able to do all things. And surely, THE HOUR IS COMING, there is no doubt about it, and certainly, ALLAH WILL RESURRECT THOSE WHO ARE IN THE GRAVES. S. 22:6-7 Hilali-Khan

    So according to your Quran, it is Allah who gives life and raises the dead at the last hour since he is the Truth who gives life.

    All I can say is OUCH!

    With that said, could you be so kind as to quote where Jesus says anyone is one with the Father in his ability to give eternal life and preserve all true believers forever and ever?

    Finally, since in all these texts Jesus affirms that God is the Father and that he is his unique divine Son this means that your profit stands condemned as a false prophet and antichrist since he contradicted the proclamation of the Lord Jesus as found in the very Gospel that you yourself quoted with approval!

    So thank you once again Williams for helping the Christians expose Muhammad as a false prophet. Much appreciated!

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    • sammy cant believe you pulled out that old bogus article miguidely thinking it refuted anything! lol…

      30. I and my Father are one

      “He intended to meet the jeers of the wicked; for they might allege that the power of God did not at all belong to him, so that he could promise to his disciples that it would assuredly protect them. He therefore testifies that his affairs are so closely united to those of the Father, that the Father’s assistance will never be withheld from himself and his sheep.

      The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is oJmoousiov of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father, so that whatever is done by Christ will be confirmed by the power of his Father.”

      Calvin, John, Commentary on the Gospel of John.

      http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/1841-john-1030/#entry40876

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    • …As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may **they also be in us***,”….🖒

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  3. Sam,

    How hard is it to see that Jesus is “given authority”, “given the name above all other names”, “given life within himself”, “given power and glory”. Is it possible that maybe,just maybe, Jesus is the agent of YHWH that his exaltation and power is to the glory of YHWH? Honestly, Trinitarians are more in love with the Trinity than with the clear teachings of scripture!

    So what if scriptural passages from the Hebrew bible are used in reference to Jesus in the Greek scriptures; duh, he is YHWH’s agent! Son of the most high! The firstborn Son at that! It’s so simple and clear and yet you Trinitarians are masters of obfuscation!

    Daniel 7 talks about one ” like a son of man” who is given honor and glory and power! How in the HELL can you give YHWH what he already and eternally possesses? I mean that’s what makes him God right? Sorry Sam but your wrong on this one.

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    • Jesus is given authority and the name above all names, and glory because He humbled Himself and became flesh and emptied Himself (incarnation, Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:1-5; 1:14) and then His work in redemption, atonement, resurrection, ascension back to heaven restored all the glory and power and authority and the name above all names again.

      John 17:4-5

      4 I glorified You on the earth,having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

      5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

      Daniel 7:13-14
      The Hebrew
      ועד
      “and to”, “and towards” “and up towards”

      shows that this is about Jesus ascension up to heaven and His session/ruling at the right hand of God the Father.

      “I kept looking in the night visions,
      And behold, with the clouds of heaven
      One like a Son of Man was coming,
      And He came up to the Ancient of Days
      And was presented before Him.

      14 “And to Him was given dominion,
      Glory and a kingdom,
      That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
      Might serve Him.
      His dominion is an everlasting dominion
      Which will not pass away;
      And His kingdom is one
      Which will not be destroyed.

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    • So, the whole thing about given authority really doesn’t make a difference one way or another. The Hebrew people and God himself had an interesting way of talking. It was a whole different culture and before you jump out there and start berating someone on what doesn’t make since do a little research first. If you are worried about the “given” part or “give YHWH something he already possesses” or “how can he inherit something he should always have” then explain this. How does the Father inherit Israel in Isaiah 19:25 when Israel should have already been his from the start? I would love to hear an answer to that. Maybe it’s not about whether the Father had the inheritance from the get go or about his eternality, and everything to do whether Israel or God’s chosen people are ready to be received. Maybe Christ’s inheritance is very much the same Jason. Nothing to do with him, and everything to do with his Bride being ready to be received. Maybe Earth is presented to him by virtue of being prepared and being ready to be ruled. THEN and ONLY THEN is power and authority given.

      Also, Daniel 7 is last place you want to go to disprove the plurality of God to a Trinitarian, I mean the very last place. I will be glad to go into detail if you want but I’ll just some it up. First Daniel 7:9, the night vision, is quoting ancient pagan scripture the Ugarit Text. Biblical scholars see this and understand this and it isn’t up for debate. Basically it says the supreme God of earth meets the supreme God of Heaven. The only cloud rider to the ancient Hebrew was the Father YHWH. So if the one who was”like” a son of man(talking about his appearance) then who was the ancient of days? Well to the ancient Hebrew this was God approaching God. And let me tell you something Jason, this is exactly how the ancient Hebrew read this. We know because we have their writings and see them talking about it and arguing about it. Again not up for debate. Does not make it right, but means you need to study yourself before putting people on blast.

      As far and the agent theory I will say that this is really the only game in town to challenge the Trinitarian or any plurality teaching in God. Lol the problem is scripture covers this. The Hebrew people had a very well established language and could have distinguished between the Malak YHWH(the angel of Yah) and the Father himself if they wanted to. Most verses I agree with you Jason you can read it both way, either God himself does something or it could be an agent. Here is where it gets fun, Judges 6:11-24 destroys this. Read it and tell me if you see anything weird if the Angel of Yah is the one who is speaking? Lol who is speaking when the Angel leaves? Again the Hebrew people know what they were writing and God knew as well. There are no mistakes.

      Jason, I would caution before you jump on a Trinitarian for being unlearned in scripture, I would suggest you question whoever or whatever teaching you follow and see where they get their information. Also I would discuss scripture with some humbleness instead of anger and trying to just embarrass people.

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  4. Ken,

    I appreciate your response,and thank you for always being fair with me even though sometimes I have been a little harsh toward Trinitarians. I get a lot of flack for being a Unitarian. With that said. The very verses that you see a Trinitarian proof I see a proof for Unitarianism. Jesus is given authority am I missing something here? Can God empty himself of his attributes and still be God? Does that even make sense? If a circle gives up its roundness is it still circle? Can God do that which is logically impossible? At least it seems logically impossible to me ,and I’m willing to admit I’m missing something ,and I could be wrong but for the life of me I just can’t see where my error may lie.

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  5. How else can one understand John 17:4-5 ?

    He is being restored to the glory He had with the Father in eternity, after He accomplishes the work of redemption in the incarnation and atonement.

    This is a very good article on the Philippians 2:5-11 passage. It is worth reading carefully.

    http://jesusiscreator.org/?p=298

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  6. Jason,
    Thanks for your comments. You are welcome. We should always treat one another as fellow human beings in the image of God, and strive for good communication; even if we believe they are wrong and teach false doctrine and heresy.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Even Jonathan McLatchie said John 10:30 is not an argument for the deity of Christ (guess Sam thinks Jonathan was not full of the Holy Spirit back then).

    The 1-Self Trinitarians. Modalists, use that verse for their own position of the Father being Jesus.

    Christianity is not a monolithic religion. The texts of the Bible are contradictory hence there are groups diverging on the basic concepts of who Jesus and who God is; Jehovah Witnesses (who believe Jesus was an angel), 3 Self Trinitarians (who believe in the 3in1 persons belief), Modalists (who believe in the 1in3 modes belief)and regular Unitarians (who believe Jesus was a Prophet although Jehovah Witnesses also fall under the umbrella of Unitarianism).

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  8. 34 Jesus answered them,“Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[a]?35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” I would re affirm that Jesus one of thr three persons of thr Triniatarian God.

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    • Here Jesus denies the false accusation that he is making himself equal to God.

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    • No He is not! He is assuring that He is the Son of God

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    • Son of God is not the same as God.

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    • Son of a Donkey is a Donkey Son of a Man is a Man Son of a Elephant is an Elephant. Only Son of God cannot be God right thats what you got?

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    • David is called son of God; Adam is called the Son of God in Luke. Both divine?

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    • Well one we unite with Father yes it is no more we who live it is Christ who does and He is Divine so we also become divine.
      Devine mean of God or Like God or God.
      And I don’t want to boast but trust me we are Of God we are the image bearers of God. So we are divine too. You are too! Only if you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour Amen

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    • Abraham O worships two gods according to his presumptions… God the Father and God the Son..

      ….if O professed his worship of two gods during Moses’ day an called others to do the same he would have been put to death…

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    • It’s not two that’s where Omar my friend you making mistake. God is one but in Three persons each equal but diverse but united. God the Father one who Loved us and created us. God the Son who paid the price and died for our Salvation. God the Holy Spirit who blesses us and leads us to God as we lead a healthy spiritual life. Amen

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    • No Abby O…you’re making a detrimental mistake..

      You worship God the Father who Loves and creates.

      You woship God the Son who paid the price and died for your Salvation.

      You worship God the Holy Spirit who blesses and leads to God

      Therefore, You worship three equal distinct personal Gods united…and again if Moses heard you calling people to this polytheistic belief you would be put to death my friend!

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    • Well I’m glad that Moses is dead and Christ who is my Lord and Saviour who has taught me all that I Know in faith that He lives He is resurrected.
      See itd documented that Christ was born tortures died and resurrected. So if Moses was a Leader Jesus is and was His leader back then too.
      Father Jesus and Holy Spirit are one God in three different persons. I’ll show you one diagram one day okay.

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  9. Abraham Ofhisglory

    You forgot God said He is One, Only and Alone?

    Donkeys and Elephants do have sex and give birth. Where in the Bible does it says God have wives and had sex with them then gave birth with offspring so that we can have many gods like Son of a Donkey?

    The Bible is against such thinking and considers who thinks like that as an idol worshiper. That is from Pagan Greeks and Roman mythology where God loves and came down to have sex with humans and produce other gods and that is polytheism, idolatry and is punishable by God according to the Bible.

    Besides, comparing other things as God Himself is a major sin that needs repentance according to the Bible. Anyone who said Son of God is God has sinned.

    Deuteronomy 33:26
    “There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty.

    1 Samuel 2:2
    “There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

    2 Samuel 7:22
    “For this reason You are great, O Lord GOD; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

    1 Kings 8:23
    He said, “O LORD, the God of Israel, there is no God like You in heaven above or on earth beneath, keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Your servants who walk before You with all their heart,

    Psalm 18:31
    For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God

    Thanks

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    • Abraham offhisglory

      God said in the Bible that He is Only One God who is Alone. He(God) said so, I did not say that. Jesus said the most important commandment is God is One.

      So, When saying anything about God, let that be the base of your argument otherwise you will lose as all Tinitarians have lost. You are lost. You came here with pride but now you cannot comment because you are on the wrong side of religion created by men based on Greeko-Roman gods of sex, love, thunder etc.

      The Biblical God said He is One, Only and Alone and therefore He(God) is not like the Elephant, Donkey, Man or any other things you can think of, so He(God) can not be like Donkey because Donkeys are many but God is One, Only and Alone.

      A donkey and a son of donkey are 2 donkeys but God said He is 1 and so the Son of God is not God Himself. Any one who believed as such has committed idolatry and needs to abandon any religion that tells him the Son of God is God Himself.

      I can see you are new to this site. Warning: This website or blog is a critical thinking site and it is not for lies. Any lie will be immediately detected and addressed. The Son of God as God Himself is a lie. Very big lie.

      Thanks.

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    • God is One. I dont understand how such a simple idea gets distorted so badly. Again, not to knock Trinitarians but I really feel like the idea of God taking on human flesh to die for our sins is a narrative they are just in love with! I even had a Christian tell me to my face, to my atonishment, if Jesus was just a man then he isnt worth following! Come again..

      Jesus literally calls YHWH “the only true God” he literally calls YHWH “my God and your God, my Father and your Father” I’m telling ya’ll it seems to me that Trinitarianism is predicated on equivocation, not necessarily so, but equivocation of common words nonetheless.

      Regardless, Happy fun Friday everyone

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  10. “Honestly, Trinitarians are more in love with the Trinity than with the clear teachings of scripture!”
    I have nothing against Trinitarians but man that was funny lol, because sadly it’s true in many cases.

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  11. * I meant to say “not intentionally so” instead of not necessarily so.

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  12. Anyone who worships the One God of Abraham is my brother/sister. Even if we disagree about other things. That’s what unites us and that’s who we both serve.

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    • Exactly Jason, just as Jesus said “whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my mother, my brother and my sister”.

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  13. I was told that Jason may actually be an arian or humanitarian unitarian. Therefore, I am now going to turn the tables on him by showing him that, per his definition of what constitutes being God, the Father can’t be God either.

    According to the God-breathed Scriptures Jehovah receives an inheritance:

    “When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD’s PORTION is His people; Jacob is THE ALLOTMENT OF HIS INHERITANCE.” Deuteronomy 32:8-9

    “Arise, O God, judge the earth, FOR YOU SHALL INHERIT THE NATIONS.” Psalm 82:8

    The Holy Bible further says that creatures actually give to Jehovah power, glory, and honor:

    “GIVE TO THE LORD, you heavenly beings, GIVE TO THE LORD glory and strength. GIVE TO THE LORD the glory of His name; worship the LORD in holy splendor.” Psalm 29:1-2

    “When the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and worship Him, who lives forever and ever. Then they cast their crowns before the throne, saying, ‘You are worthy, O Lord, TO RECEIVE glory and honor and power; for You have created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.’” Revelation 4:10-11

    To make matters worse for Jason, the Holy Bible says that God the Father receives power and kingship in the same contexts that Christ does!

    “The seventh angel sounded, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying: ‘The kingdoms of the world HAVE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever.’” Revelation 11:15

    “Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: ‘Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ HAVE COME, for the accuser of our brothers, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.’” Revelation 12:10

    In fact, we are even told that it is the Son who shall personally give the kingdom to the Father!

    “Then comes the end when He will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Corinthians 15:24

    Therefore, if Jesus can’t be God because he receives things from the Father, then the Father can’t be God either because he receives things from his creation, including an inheritance. OUCH!

    But we all know how stupid this logic is.

    However, the worst is still to come for our “friend” Jason. Both the apostles and the righteous angels are God’s agents invested with God’s authority, and yet neither the apostles nor these righteous angels ever allowed anyone to worship them:

    “As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshipped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, ‘Stand up. I MYSELF AM A MAN.’” Acts 10:25-26

    “Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, ‘These are the true sayings of God.’ I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘See that you not do that. I AM YOUR FELLOW SERVANT, AND OF YOUR BROTHERS who hold the testimony of Jesus. WORSHIP GOD! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.’” Revelation 19:9-10

    “I, John, am he who saw and heard these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, ‘See that you not do that. FOR I AM YOUR FELLOW SERVANT, AND OF YOUR BROTHERS THE PROPHETS, and of those who keep the words of this book. WORSHIP GOD!’” Revelation 22:8-9

    And yet Jesus receives the exact same worship that the Father receives from every created thing in existence!

    “And EVERY CREATED THING WHICH IS IN HEAVEN AND ON THE EARTH AND UNDER THE EARTH AND ON THE SEA, AND ALL THINGS IN THEM, I heard saying, ‘To Him who sits on the throne, AND TO THE LAMB, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion FOREVER AND EVER.’ And the four living creatures kept saying, ‘Amen.’ And the elders fell down AND WORSHIPED.” Revelation 5:13-14

    This passage is a huge embarrassment for Jason since it proves that Jesus is not a part of creation, but is separate and distinct from every created being in all of creation. Christ is placed on the same side that God the Father is placed on in the Creator/creature divide. As such, Jesus must be Jehovah God Almighty (even though he is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit) since only Jehovah is uncreated. This explains why the Father would tolerate, in fact command, every creature in existence giving his Son the exact same worship that he himself receives.

    So here is my challenge to Jason. Show me a single example where any of Jehovah’s anointed earthly kings received the same exact worship from every created thing in existence like Jesus does and will continue to receive forever and ever.

    Finally, the Scriptures teach that there is none like Jehovah who alone is exalted on high:

    “Who is like the LORD our God, who dwells on high,” Psalm 113:5

    “Let them praise the name of the LORD, FOR HIS NAME ALONE IS EXALTED; His glory is above earth and heaven.” Psalm 148:13

    “The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, AND THE LORD ALONE SHALL BE EXALTED IN THAT DAY. For the day of the LORD of Hosts shall be upon everything that is proud and lofty, and upon everything that is lifted up, and it shall be brought low; and it will be upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, and upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, and upon all the high towers, and upon every fenced wall, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant sloops. The loftiness of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; THE LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED IN THAT DAY;” Isaiah 2:11-17

    “For thus says THE HIGH AND LOFTY ONE who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell IN THE HIGH and holy PLACE and also with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.” Isaiah 57:15

    Once again, Jesus must be Jehovah God in order for the Father to exalt him to share in his unique name status over the entire creation!

    “and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, which He performed in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, FAR ABOVE ALL PRINCIPALITIES, AND POWER, AND MIGHT, AND DOMINION, AND EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE BUT ALSO IN THE AGE TO COME. And He put all things in subjection under His feet and made Him the head over all things for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all things in all ways.” Ephesians 1:19-23

    “He is the brightness of His glory, the express image of Himself, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had by Himself purged our sins, HE SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH.” Hebrews 1:3

    And then post this as well. Thanks:

    Jason is a beautiful example of why Muslims really have no business doing apologetics because they keep embarrassing their profit proving that he didn’t know what he was talking about.

    First, if Jesus receiving authority or glory somehow proves that he cannot be God then this means Jason’s god cannot be God (and he can’t but for other reasons), since the Quran claims that Allah receives an inheritance from his creatures:

    Those who are tight-fisted with the bounty Allah has given them should not suppose that that is better for them. No indeed, it is worse for them! What they were tight-fisted with will be hung around their necks on the Day of Rising. ALLAH IS THE INHERITOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH and Allah is aware of what you do. S. 3:180 Aisha Bewley

    It is We who give life, and make to die, AND IT IS WE WHO ARE THE INHERITORS. S. 15:23 Arberry

    AND WE SHALL INHERIT FROM HIM that whereof he spake, and he will come unto Us, alone (without his wealth and children). S. 19:40 Pickthall

    SURELY WE SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH AND ALL THAT ARE UPON IT, and unto Us they shall be returned. S. 19:80 Arberry

    Allah is even said to be the best among those who receive an inheritance, which places him in the same category with his creatures!

    And Zachariah, when he cried unto his Lord: My Lord! Leave me not childless, though THOU ART THE BEST OF INHERITORS. S. 21:89 Pickthall

    In fact one of the names of Allah is al-Warith, “the Heir”!

    It gets worse for Allah since the Quran says that Allah actually takes out loans from his creatures:

    WHO IS HE THAT WILL LEND TO ALLAH A GOODLY LOAN so that He may multiply it to him many times? And it is Allah that decreases or increases (your provisions), and unto Him you shall return. S. 2:245 Hilali-Khan

    Lo! those who give alms, both men and women, AND LEND UNTO ALLAH A GOODLY LOAN, it will be doubled for them, and theirs will be a rich reward. S. 57:18 Pickthall

    Now to use Jason’s words, “How in the HELL can Allah be given money and receive an inheritance from anyone when he is supposed the same God Yahweh, and should be therefore all sufficient who is in need of no one or no thing?”

    Second, Islam denies that Allah permits any creature no matter how exalted to share in his glory, worship and/or sovereignty over creation:

    And say: (All) PRAISE IS DUE TO ALLAH, Who has not taken a son AND WHO HAS NOT A PARTNER IN THE KINGDOM, and Who has not a helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him). S. 17:111 Shakir

    He, Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and Who did not take to Himself a son, AND WHO HAS NO ASSOCIATE IN THE KINGDOM, and Who created everything, then ordained for it a measure. S. 25:2 Shakir

    In fact, Jason’s “response” violates Tauhid al-Rububiyyah and Tauhid al-Ibadah/Uluhiyyah, which emphatically affirm that Allah ALONE is sovereign over all creation and that he ALONE is to be worshiped and glorified. Therefore, if Jason is right that an agent of God can be given the same exact glory and worship that God receives, and can also share in the authority of God over all creation, then this once again proves Muhammad was a liar who had no clue what he was talking about (which he didn’t since he was a false prophet and an antichrist). Way to go Jason! Thanks for helping me prove that Islam is a lie and that you know better than even Allah and his messenger!

    Lord willing, I have more for you in my next post.

    Like

    • Sam are you no longer my pal? 😦

      Liked by 1 person

    • what a nonsense post!

      Like

    • Sammy thanks for proving to us that your understanding of Islam is equivalent to Thrumps understanding of quantum physics..lol…Sammy turn away from worshipping 3 personal gods better to worship Allah alone….

      Like

    • “We note that vss. 28 and 29 make the same statement about Jesus and about the Father: no one can snatch the sheep from either’s hand. This leads us to an understanding of the unity that is expressed in 30: it is a unity of power and operation…in itself this description remains primarily functional”

      – pp. 407-8 Another from Urban C. von Wahlde, The Gospel and Letters of John, vol. 2 Raymond Brown, The Gospel According to John I-XII,,

      “Jesus claims to have the same ability as the Father. In that sense, the Father and Jesus are “one.” Yet, in this context, the statement is not a metaphysical one. It is a statement of functional unity and in spite of its aptness for later Trinitarian debate, I would argue that its original meaning is not substantially different from that of 5:17-18.”

      – p. 473 Or again in the 2nd edition of George R. Beasley-Murray’s John,

      “The setting of v 30 in relation to v 28-28 shows that a functional unity of the Son and the Father in their care for the sheep is in mind. From earliest times it has been observed that Jesus says, “I and the Father are en, not eis, i.e., one in action, not in person”.

      -p. 174 The late F.F. Bruce makes similar comments in his The Gospel and Epistles of John,

      “Here we have a particular application of the statements in John 5:19-23. So responsive is the Son to the Father that he is one in mind, one in purpose, one in action with him”

      . -pp. 232-3 James McGrath’s contribution to the SNTSMS entitled John’s Apologetic Christology likewise echoes the same point,

      “Nonetheless, the claim of the Son to carry out divine prerogatives is the key issue, and thus it is the idea that the Son and the Father are one in action that is in focus in the controversy described in the passage”

      . -p. 119 Marianne Meye Thompson’s article on the Gospel of John in the Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels is quite informative,

      “When the Gospel speaks of the unity of the Father and Son, it points especially to their unity in work of revelation and salvation (8:16; 10:25-30; 14:10-11; 17:10). That is to say, the actions and words of Jesus were truly the actions and words of God.”

      -p. 378 Warren Carter’s insightful work on John: Storyteller, Interpreter, Evangelist states,

      “This intimate reciprocal relationship is marked by unity in function and purpose: they are one (10:30)” – p. 53

      The commentary on John in the New Interpreter’s Bible, vol. IX, written by Gail R. O’Day, makes a lengthy observation,

      “It is critical that the contemporary interpreter read v. 30 in the context of Johannine theology and not through the lens of the christological controversies of the second through fourth centuries or of the trinitarian doctrine that developed out of these controversies. The Greek word “one” is neuter, not masculine, so that Jesus is not saying that he and God are one person, or even of one nature or essence. Rather, he is saying that he and God are united in the work that they do. It is impossible to distinguish Jesus’ work from God’s work, because Jesus shares fully in God’s work. -p. 677

      Like

  14. Im not Sam, and does someone ban his Pal?

    Like

  15. Sam Says

    August 19, 2016 • 11:47 pm

    I was told that Jason may actually be an arian or humanitarian unitarian. Therefore, I am now going to turn the tables on him by showing him that, per his definition of what constitutes being God, the Father can’t be God either.

    Jason-Thanks for responding Sam the wise, I figured if you did respond it would be an essay. For the record I am a Biblical Unitarian and a humanitarian as well. I worship the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. You worship the Pagan Gods of the Greeks and the other heathens. BOOM, POW,OUCH!

    According to the God-breathed Scriptures Jehovah receives an inheritance:

    “When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD’s PORTION is His people; Jacob is THE ALLOTMENT OF HIS INHERITANCE.” Deuteronomy 32:8-9

    Jason-So Sam the wise, are you arguing that YHWH was given an inheritance from ” The Most High”? Thus exposing the truth that you don’t worship the God of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac? Because as we Monotheist know, YHWH/ALLAH is tantamount to “The Most High” yet you seem to be arguing otherwise.

    “Arise, O God, judge the earth, FOR YOU SHALL INHERIT THE NATIONS.” Psalm 82:8

    Jason- Sam the wise, the NRSV says- ” Rise up, O God, judge the earth; FOR ALL THE NATIONS BELONG TO YOU”! BOOM, POW, JUDO CHOP! Sam the wise, Since you worship a heathen God I wouldn’t expect you to understand.

    The Holy Bible further says that creatures actually give to Jehovah power, glory, and honor:

    “GIVE TO THE LORD, you heavenly beings, GIVE TO THE LORD glory and strength. GIVE TO THE LORD the glory of His name; worship the LORD in holy splendor.” Psalm 29:1-2

    Jason-Sam the wise, The NIV study Bible has this to say in regards to verse one ” Heavenly beings. This term can refer to angels (e.g. 89:6, 148:2, Job 1:6, 2:1) but SOMETIMES ALSO TO PAGAN DEITIES THAT EXISTED ONLY IN PEOPLES IMAGINATIONS AND IN THE ELABORATE RELIGOUS ESTABLISHMENTS CREATED TO SERVE THEM IN MOST ANCIENT NEAR EASTERN CULTURES” So according to this NIV translation with D.A. Carson as the general editor is it feasible that this scripture means that YHWH can only receive glory and strength from PAGAN DEITIES? BOOM, POW, JUDO DHOP, BRUCE LEE’S 3 INCHE PUCNH! Again Sam the wise I think its apparent that you don’t worship the God of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac.

    “When the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and worship Him, who lives forever and ever. Then they cast their crowns before the throne, saying, ‘You are worthy, O Lord, TO RECEIVE glory and honor and power; for You have created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.’” Revelation 4:10-11

    To make matters worse for Jason, the Holy Bible says that God the Father receives power and kingship in the same contexts that Christ does!

    “The seventh angel sounded, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying: ‘The kingdoms of the world HAVE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever.’” Revelation 11:15

    “Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: ‘Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ HAVE COME, for the accuser of our brothers, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.’” Revelation 12:10

    In fact, we are even told that it is the Son who shall personally give the kingdom to the Father!

    “Then comes the end when He will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Corinthians 15:24

    Therefore, if Jesus can’t be God because he receives things from the Father, then the Father can’t be God either because he receives things from his creation, including an inheritance. OUCH!

    But we all know how stupid this logic is.

    However, the worst is still to come for our “friend” Jason. Both the apostles and the righteous angels are God’s agents invested with God’s authority, and yet neither the apostles nor these righteous angels ever allowed anyone to worship them:

    “As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshipped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, ‘Stand up. I MYSELF AM A MAN.’” Acts 10:25-26

    “Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, ‘These are the true sayings of God.’ I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘See that you not do that. I AM YOUR FELLOW SERVANT, AND OF YOUR BROTHERS who hold the testimony of Jesus. WORSHIP GOD! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.’” Revelation 19:9-10

    “I, John, am he who saw and heard these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, ‘See that you not do that. FOR I AM YOUR FELLOW SERVANT, AND OF YOUR BROTHERS THE PROPHETS, and of those who keep the words of this book. WORSHIP GOD!’” Revelation 22:8-9

    And yet Jesus receives the exact same worship that the Father receives from every created thing in existence!

    Jason-Sam the wise, that’s cause Jesus was exalted by YHWH you should know that already since apparently YHWH can only be uplifted and glorified through the power of other God’s or humans nonetheless! Again Sam the wise, I don’t fault you, for you don’t worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael.

    “And EVERY CREATED THING WHICH IS IN HEAVEN AND ON THE EARTH AND UNDER THE EARTH AND ON THE SEA, AND ALL THINGS IN THEM, I heard saying, ‘To Him who sits on the throne, AND TO THE LAMB, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion FOREVER AND EVER.’ And the four living creatures kept saying, ‘Amen.’ And the elders fell down AND WORSHIPED.” Revelation 5:13-14

    Jason-Sound like two distinct people/persons to me. But again, Sam the wise, you don’t worship the God of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac. You worship the God’s of ancient Greece and the other heathen nations. BOOM,POW,ROYCE GRACIA CHOKE HOLD,BRUCE LEE SIDE KICK,OUCH! Man you probably spitting up blood by now.

    This passage is a huge embarrassment for Jason since it proves that Jesus is not a part of creation, but is separate and distinct from every created being in all of creation. Christ is placed on the same side that God the Father is placed on in the Creator/creature divide. As such, Jesus must be Jehovah God Almighty (even though he is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit) since only Jehovah is uncreated. This explains why the Father would tolerate, in fact command, every creature in existence giving his Son the exact same worship that he himself receives.

    So here is my challenge to Jason. Show me a single example where any of Jehovah’s anointed earthly kings received the same exact worship from every created thing in existence like Jesus does and will continue to receive forever and ever.

    Finally, the Scriptures teach that there is none like Jehovah who alone is exalted on high:

    “Who is like the LORD our God, who dwells on high,” Psalm 113:5

    Jason-Sam the wise, no one is like “THE LORD OUR GOD, WHO DWELLS ON HIGH”! Duh! So you can quote the scriptures, yet you just cant understand them! BOOM, POW, ANDERSON SILVA KNOCK OUT PUNCH TO YOUR GRILL.

    “Let them praise the name of the LORD, FOR HIS NAME ALONE IS EXALTED; His glory is above earth and heaven.” Psalm 148:13

    Jason-Sam the wise, Yet again you quote the scripture and yet miss the clear “Monotheistic/Unitarian teachings that SCREAMS FROM SAID SCRIPTURE! Blinded by the light….

    “The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, AND THE LORD ALONE SHALL BE EXALTED IN THAT DAY. For the day of the LORD of Hosts shall be upon everything that is proud and lofty, and upon everything that is lifted up, and it shall be brought low; and it will be upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, and upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, and upon all the high towers, and upon every fenced wall, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant sloops. The loftiness of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; THE LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED IN THAT DAY;” Isaiah 2:11-17

    “For thus says THE HIGH AND LOFTY ONE who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell IN THE HIGH and holy PLACE and also with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.” Isaiah 57:15

    Once again, Jesus must be Jehovah God in order for the Father to exalt him to share in his unique name status over the entire creation!

    Jason-Sam the wise, God forbid YHWH could exalt someone per Daniel chapter 7! Its so simple broski.

    “and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, which He performed in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, FAR ABOVE ALL PRINCIPALITIES, AND POWER, AND MIGHT, AND DOMINION, AND EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE BUT ALSO IN THE AGE TO COME. And He put all things in subjection under His feet and made Him the head over all things for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all things in all ways.” Ephesians 1:19-23

    Jason-Sam the wise, Who raised Christ from the dead? That’s the God I worship! So your God who is “given life” who is “resurrected” who is “exalted and given a name above every other name” is the servant of the God who “resurrected and exalted and gave your God the name above every other name”! BOOM,POW,ARM LOCK,JUDO THROW!

    “He is the brightness of His glory, the express image of Himself, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had by Himself purged our sins, HE SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH.” Hebrews 1:3

    Jason-Sam the wise, my son is an image of me BUT HE IS NOT ME! Even my 10 year old understands that.

    And then post this as well. Thanks:

    Jason-Sam the wise, I must humbly bow out for I am not a Muslim. Though they are my brothers/sisters and we do worship the same God of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac. Your worship the God’s of the heathens and pagans. Good luck with that though.

    Jason is a beautiful example of why Muslims really have no business doing apologetics because they keep embarrassing their profit proving that he didn’t know what he was talking about.

    First, if Jesus receiving authority or glory somehow proves that he cannot be God then this means Jason’s god cannot be God (and he can’t but for other reasons), since the Quran claims that Allah receives an inheritance from his creatures:

    Those who are tight-fisted with the bounty Allah has given them should not suppose that that is better for them. No indeed, it is worse for them! What they were tight-fisted with will be hung around their necks on the Day of Rising. ALLAH IS THE INHERITOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH and Allah is aware of what you do. S. 3:180 Aisha Bewley

    It is We who give life, and make to die, AND IT IS WE WHO ARE THE INHERITORS. S. 15:23 Arberry

    AND WE SHALL INHERIT FROM HIM that whereof he spake, and he will come unto Us, alone (without his wealth and children). S. 19:40 Pickthall

    SURELY WE SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH AND ALL THAT ARE UPON IT, and unto Us they shall be returned. S. 19:80 Arberry

    Allah is even said to be the best among those who receive an inheritance, which places him in the same category with his creatures!

    And Zachariah, when he cried unto his Lord: My Lord! Leave me not childless, though THOU ART THE BEST OF INHERITORS. S. 21:89 Pickthall

    In fact one of the names of Allah is al-Warith, “the Heir”!

    It gets worse for Allah since the Quran says that Allah actually takes out loans from his creatures:

    WHO IS HE THAT WILL LEND TO ALLAH A GOODLY LOAN so that He may multiply it to him many times? And it is Allah that decreases or increases (your provisions), and unto Him you shall return. S. 2:245 Hilali-Khan

    Lo! those who give alms, both men and women, AND LEND UNTO ALLAH A GOODLY LOAN, it will be doubled for them, and theirs will be a rich reward. S. 57:18 Pickthall

    Now to use Jason’s words, “How in the HELL can Allah be given money and receive an inheritance from anyone when he is supposed the same God Yahweh, and should be therefore all sufficient who is in need of no one or no thing?”

    Second, Islam denies that Allah permits any creature no matter how exalted to share in his glory, worship and/or sovereignty over creation:

    And say: (All) PRAISE IS DUE TO ALLAH, Who has not taken a son AND WHO HAS NOT A PARTNER IN THE KINGDOM, and Who has not a helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him). S. 17:111 Shakir

    He, Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and Who did not take to Himself a son, AND WHO HAS NO ASSOCIATE IN THE KINGDOM, and Who created everything, then ordained for it a measure. S. 25:2 Shakir

    In fact, Jason’s “response” violates Tauhid al-Rububiyyah and Tauhid al-Ibadah/Uluhiyyah, which emphatically affirm that Allah ALONE is sovereign over all creation and that he ALONE is to be worshiped and glorified. Therefore, if Jason is right that an agent of God can be given the same exact glory and worship that God receives, and can also share in the authority of God over all creation, then this once again proves Muhammad was a liar who had no clue what he was talking about (which he didn’t since he was a false prophet and an antichrist). Way to go Jason! Thanks for helping me prove that Islam is a lie and that you know better than even Allah and his messenger!

    Lord willing, I have more for you in my next post.

    Like

  16. Intellect,

    You shouldn’t of said anything, Sam the wise is going to respond to you with a 37 page essay…Lol

    Thank you for your input and advice. My belief is that Trinitarians are masters of equivocation and obfuscation, heck they been doing it for 2000 years. They oughta be good at it!

    The fact that he can come on this blog and call Muhammad(pbuh)a profit goes to show what a tool he can be! That’s the double standard that Christians live by unfortunately. They act like our(meaning us Christians of course)Bible doesn’t have its own ethical issue to wrestle with but instead they deflect. I just can’t demonize 1.8 billion people! If I go to hell for that belief, so be it!

    I have really learned a lot since I started trolling this blog..lol Nothing dispels ignorance like knowledge.

    Liked by 2 people

  17. I went from being a hate monger to a civil person (well hopefully civil for the most part..lol)

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Paul,

    I cant put my finger on it exactly Paul. It feels good not to hate though I can tell you that much! This blog helped me out a lot because it allowed me to see what intelligent Muslims think and feel and why they believe the way they do. I didn’t realize the spiritual science that went with studying the Quran and Hadiths until I stumbled upon this blog. Also, I noticed a common thing with these terrorist attacks, it was always either a lone wolf, or a couple people. There are what like 1.8 billion Muslims on planet earth? I’m positive that if they all wanted us dead we would have been dead by now. I’m just not one of those Americans that are scared of sharia or Muslims!

    Liked by 2 people

  19. I think I stumbled upon your Twitter first, you we’re arguing with a Trinitarian. That lead me to your blog. It is seriously my favorite blog! I love the melting pot of views that are freely expressed here.

    I am an exJW, my Grandmother ever since I was a child always spoke to me about Jehovah and the Oneness of God. I have a special affection for my fellow Monotheist (love my Sikh brothers as well)/Unitarians. I guess I don’t follow the traditional understanding of most Christians and I pray that God saves all of us sincere righteous seekers (I try to be righteous at least lol) I don’t wish anyone to be destroyed or cast into hell! I don’t hopefull wait in glee the day when every Jew,Muslim and non Christian is cast into the lake of fire. I would much rather work together in knowledge to sharpen eachothers spiritual swords.

    Peace, Happy Saturday:)

    Liked by 2 people

  20. Great post. Check out my page for my current and upcoming political and theological posts. Follow for follow. Have a great day. th3platform.wordpress.com

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  21. “Abram was eighty-six years of age when Ishmael was born”. Universally, the 1st Muslim; born to Hagar and circumcised as per the law of those times. Abraham is mentioned in 35 chapters of the Quran, more often than any other biblical personage apart from Moses. Sarah -> Christians; Hagar -> Muslims; Abraham -> All Abrahamic religions. Apart from this, when Sarah decided to shun Hagar so that Sarah’s son solely receives all inheritance – God promised Abraham that through Hagar, his generations will multiply exceedingly. Quite correlational in today’s times – why quarrel?! 🙂

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